Michelle Obama: The Light Podcast - Leslie Jones

Episode Date: February 14, 2024

Comedian and actress Leslie Jones makes us laugh and gets philosophical about the gift of comedy in this episode. We get a glimpse into her childhood kitchen in Southern California, where her father was the primary cook and funnyman. She opens up about dealing with the loss of both her parents and using humor as a form of therapy. We also get to hear her talk about her grandmother’s cornbread stuffing that is so good, Leslie has it all year round, not just on holidays.Leslie Jones is a stand-up comedian and actress. She was a writer and cast member on Saturday Night Live for five seasons, starting in 2014. She’s also played notable roles in films and TV shows, including the Ghostbusters reboot in 2016 and HBO Max’s Our Flag Means Death. She published her memoir, Leslie F*cking Jones, in 2023.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

My grandmother, when she was, I don't know what made me do this one night. I called her and I said, Big Mama, we're going to sit on the phone and you're going to tell me every recipe. And I just sat and I wrote the recipe for dressing. I wrote the recipe for her cornbread, ribs. She gave me all the main ones. So that's important. Get those recipes because you want to make sure. Yeah.

Just go get on the phone with your grandma real quick. And just even if you don't cook, get on your phone with your grandmama and just start writing recipes. Welcome to Your Mama's Kitchen, the podcast that explores how we're shaped as adults by the kitchens we grew up in as kids and all the comforting and sometimes zany things that happened there. I'm Michelle Norris. Today we're joined by Leslie Jones, the statuesque comedian and actress known for a bawdy brand of humor that makes people laugh even if they squirm a little bit. She had us cracking up the minute she sat down in front of the microphone. You pass. I hire you.

Leslie is known for bringing down the house as a writer and cast member on SNL for five seasons starting in 2014. She was also one of the leads of the Ghostbusters reboot in 2016. She keeps it real and she keeps it busy. You may have seen her filling in recently as host on the Daily Show. You may have caught her as a pirate on the hilarious HBO show, Our Flag Means Death, or as a game show host on Supermarket Suite. or as the People's Unofficial Olympics commentator. We are familiar with Leslie's funny side,

but she has revealed another aspect of her life in her memoir called Leslie F.N. Jones, where she goes deep about her career and her upbringing in Southern California. Now, that title may sound kind of sassy, but Leslie has entered an introspective stage in her life, and that's evident in this conversation. You will hear about her father's role as the primary, Mary Cook in their kitchen about how she dealt with the loss of both her parents and how starting in childhood her humor has been a lifelong strategy for helping her slog through pain and lift others up

as well. All that and the dressing that tastes like home for Leslie, not salad dressing, cornbread dressing, the stuff that some people call stuffing. For Leslie, it was and is a source of comfort. Leslie Jones, I guess it's time for us to start this initial conversation because we've been here cracking up. That was crazy. I am so glad you're with us. Thanks for making time for us. You've been busy. You've got a new book. You've been out on the road. You're here. You're there. You're a New York Times bestseller. And you made time for us. So thank you for that. I know. I'm having, I'm having fun. You're having a moment. Yeah. And you deserve it. You worked hard for it. Basque in it. Sit in it. It's hard for me to take compliments. You know, you just think of it as work, you know.

Yeah. Well, this is work. You know. Every so often when you work hard, there are dividends. So bask in that as a good moment. Yes. Well, this is a podcast where we spend time talking about memory and identity about the things that we saw and heard and witnessed in our mama's kitchens. Because a lot of things happen in a kitchen that go beyond the meals that are served and the food that fills up the cupboards.

All kinds of things happen in a kitchen. So when you think of a kitchen, just a bit of biography, You were born in Memphis and then you moved to California. You've moved around the country. You maybe had aunts and uncles and grandmas who had other kitchens. But when I ask you about your mama's kitchen, the kitchen that had the biggest impact on you, where was it? What did it look like?

What kind of smells? We're coming from the stove. What kind of things happened there? You know, I didn't know what the podcast was about. You just said yes. You just said. I just said yes because Lola said, you know, I would think you would love this lady. I was like, okay, oh, like, okay, yeah, I'll do it.

And I didn't know that's what it was. But as soon as you just described it, all these flashes went through my head of kitchens, of significant kitchens. You know what I'm saying? Because my mom wasn't the best cook. Like she could really fry chicken really well and fish really well. She was known for those two things.

My dad did most of the cooking. But we traveled a lot. So these kitchens that are flashing through my head, I just specifically remember my grandmother's kitchen where we ate a lot of good food. And then, like, I'm thinking about the kitchen that we had in Lisa Street where my dad would put so much garlic into food that I wouldn't even be able to come into the house because the house would have this garlic smell. And it just would make me so, it just was so overpowering because he would do that with chicken thighs. And they would be good.

The thighs were good. But garlicky as hell, you know, just remember just him kicking goulash. and my mom just always cleaning up, like helping us clean up. Not hurting so much clean up, but making us clean up. But it's so funny that you said that. It's just so many kitchens

that flashed through my head, you know? When you think of your home kitchen, the kitchen that really kind of still sits inside you, that helped you become the person that you are now, was that in Memphis or California? That is such a good question. Because I can't pick it. I would have to say both.

Because it's just one part of where I was coming up. But then when we came to California, I was a different person. You know, and that kitchen was the kitchen that I'm specifically thinking about is the kitchen I last saw my mom in. What was that kitchen like? Describe it for me. Well, we lived in Linwood and we had to downgrade because my father had lost his job. So we moved to Linwood, the other part of Linwood, and we were the front house. Like we were the front house of the apartments that would be in the back.

So we had one, two, we had three bedrooms, two bathrooms, a main bathroom, and then a small bathroom in my bathroom that connected to the washroom. And that's where the back door was because I snuck out of there a lot of times. I got caught a lot of times, too. But it would go directly into the kitchen. When you walk in, right when you walk in, the refrigerator is right there. And I do believe that it was just counterspace. Then there was the front window, which was the sink.

So many days looking out that window onto the street because all the cool kids was outside. So I would always try to act like I was washing dishes or whatever. So I could look outside. And then it would go into this corner where there was a hood and a stove right here. And then in this area was the table where you ate at. And then there was another window right there. And then that went right into the living room. I just remember when I walked out of the house to go back to school,

my mom was over there washing her hair. And she just, she had to bend down because of the hood. You know, she was like, all right. And I was like, hey, bye, mom. Damn. Hmm. Ooh, girl. A lot of memories in the kitchen.

A lot of lessons in the kitchen. Yeah. Yeah. And the lesson that taught me is like, you know what? When you say and bye to somebody, I mean, especially if it's somebody like your brother or your sister or your kid or your mom and dad. And you know you're going away for a couple of days or, you know what I'm saying? Like, are you going back to school?

I mean, like, don't just throw it away. Like, I really, I take myself back there so many times because, oh, girl, you're going to make me cry. But, you know, I just remember that she had borrowed money to give me $5 and she needed $5 to put into her tank. And I just was like, bye. But I really wish I had went over there and hugged her Because that was the last time I saw her healthy Yeah But isn't that what mothers do?

We talked to a lot of people on the show Leslie, I know you need to take a minute It's okay, it's okay Oof Heavy I never think, I never know what's going to, you never know what's going to, you know, hit you, you know Yeah

That's how that type of stuff happens Ugh, you ain't supposed to make me cry I did not intend to. I did not intend to. I know. But, you know, this is the space, you know, and when you think about the people that you've lost, especially, you know, our moms, they sacrifice so much for us, right? She needed something for herself, but she was willing to put that $5 in your pocket. You know, she wanted to make sure that she put some coin in your pocket. Yeah, but you know what's so crazy is about how we don't really realize that moment. Until you're older to appreciate it. Because when you're young, and I don't even remember what I spent the five. on. So it's just like how hard we are on our parents. She was 38. You know what I'm saying? Do you remember 38? Damn, I definitely wouldn't have been raising two kids. You know what I'm saying? And one in college. It's just like the way that we throw moments away sometimes I just always tell kids, hey, everybody have their dynamics, their family stuff, you know, but like it's a scary world without your parents. It's a scary world.

When your parents leave this world, it's a scary world without them. Them are people who really do love you unconditionally. And I'm not saying that that's like that every family. Of course, you know, there's dynamics, like I said. But you know what I'm saying. I do know what you're saying. And sometimes it feels like they filled us up. They filled up our cup.

They filled us up with all these little sayings and all these little things. Almost like they anticipated a day when we wouldn't be able to call them up on the phone or wouldn't rely on them. You just wrote this book called Leslie F.N. Jones. But when I read your book, I realized how much of that they did for you, your mom, but especially your dad. He was always hyping you up, always boosting you up. Is that the kind of thing that made it possible for you years later to walk on stage as a comedian? Because that is a really hard thing you do to walk on a stage and try to make people laugh. How much of that related to the things that he told you when you were eating breakfast cereal? the things that they told you when they were putting a lunch together to send you out the door to go to school. How much of that started,

that confidence, that inner confidence that you have to have? How much of it started back home specifically in the kitchen? I mean, I would say all of it because my dad was just, I mean, confident, confident, confident, tall, 6'4,

a genius, literally a genius, very innovative, had a lot of initiative. And I can't explain it to you. Because people think that it just was like a motivational speech all through the house. It wasn't that at all. It was just no toleration for failure. So it wasn't even in a mean way.

It was just more of like, you can't wet? Like, he would be like, what? You don't know how to wet? Like, you know what I'm saying? I just, even the smallest question of like, man, I don't know if we're going to win. All right. Well, if you're not going to, if you're going to sit there and say it, then. Like, my dad was more of just like, have come.

common sense. Like, you're not stupid. I'm not stupid. My wife's not stupid. We don't have stupid kids, you know, being in the military. There was discipline and there was structure. It was more of like, you know damn well what you have to do to make it. Let's not make this hard. Like, it was just always more of like, well, there's no such thing as me giving you money for nothing because you just brought a seam. So I don't, I don't give money to mediocre people. It just was no such thing. his crowd participation with him. So they had very high expectations for you. Very high expectations.

Yeah, it just was just, it was just expected. Like, that's not going to happen here in this house. Do you ever feel like money is just flying out of your account like someone is holding a vacuum cleaner over your bank account? Well, I know what that feels like. And a lot of it are those subscriptions. Think about how many subscriptions you signed up for over the years and then you forget about them.

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That's rocketmoney.com slash kitchen. So this is a show about your mama's kitchen, but it's interesting because in your household, your- I keep talking about my dad. Your dad was the one who did a lot of the cooking. What would you be serving up on a weeknight in the Jones household? It just really depends. Like, it really depends. Like, when we moved here to California, there was a lot of less cooking, and we had to get

used to that, but my dad still would cook. But mostly, like, he always, you know, he went to Korea twice. He just knew how to do different. So he would make goulash. which was our favorite because it would just be a walk and just filled with meat and vegetables. And just because he did like this, he was like, we having stir fry tonight. And it's like... So it was stir fry, but you called it goulash?

Because it had everything in it. So he would call it stir fry goulash. So he would have the little wings in there. He had the shrimp, beef, and then it would just be a bunch of vegetables. And we freaking loved it. And then he made the spinach casserole. This is how he would get us to eat spinach. And I'm telling you,

To this day, I make this. It's so, and it's so simple to make. And it's one of my favorite things to eat because it's eggs and spinach and bacon and onions and garlic is so good. And then he would slice tomatoes on the top. Me and my brother would literally fight over the tomatoes. Like he would have to put extra tomatoes when he would cook it because the tomatoes would melt on top of the cheese. Oh my God. We would fight over those tomatoes. So was there a lot of laughter in your house? Oh, Jesus wept. I'd say. said this all the time. If my grandmother or my father or my brother had decided to be a comedian, I would not be famous because they would. When I say my grandmother was one of the funniest people and my dad, my dad was just crazy. He was just, he was crazy funny like because he loved Richard Pryor. He loved, he loved Millie Jackson. He loved Pigfoot. Oh, Flip Wilson. Oh, you could never say nothing bad about Philip Wilson in the house. Like Philip Wilson was his dog, Richard.

You know, like I said, Richard Pratt, like all of the let's do it again. I knew, I saw all of that stuff. So my dad was hilarious. We were always laughing. It was always something funny going on. It was always something. I mean, if it wasn't, like, we could be sitting watching TV. And my dad would just come in and just accidentally trip over us and be like, oh, I'm sorry, I ain't see y'all there.

It's just like funny, stupid stuff. And it just would be, we would how laughing because it was done. They call it cutting up. Just cutting up, just doing stupid. Oh, my God. And then when we have like, we always had fish rise on Fridays. Always, every Friday, families got together. And, you know, it's so funny when you little, you're just so happy to see the rest of your family smiling and laughing and cackling and having fun and dancing and stuff.

But when you get older, you really don't, you really realize like they were working. class and letting steam off on Friday night. You know what I mean? Like, oh, man, we had so much fun. When did you see comedy as a path? Because you were cracking people up at home. Y'all were cutting up, hijinks. You went to school, and that's one of the ways you found acceptance. You made people laugh at school. You were tall. You were a good athlete, but you could crack people up. And when that happens, the world cracks open a little bit for you. Right. People become a little, I mean, if you think about it, think about if when you laugh, you do open up a little bit. You know what I mean, anybody making you laugh does loosen you up. Laughter is

a medicine. I hate to say this. It's a joy orgasm. It's a release. I mean, think about it. When you laugh, you feel so good afterwards. And you do feel it. There's chemistry involved there. Exactly. Somebody that make you laugh, you'd be like, ooh, they know something about me. That's something they, we're like in the way. You know what I mean? Somebody crack a joke, even if it's a small joke, And you get it and you're actually kind of thinking it too. And somebody crack a joke. You'd be like, I just connected with you. Like, I love when I watch comedy and somebody does a joke.

And you'd be like, damn, I was thinking that, man. That's crazy. Now you want to listen to more. Does that make sense? And it just lightens up whatever it is. And it also can make you go, damn, that shit wasn't so serious. Huh? I was bad for nothing.

So this happens to everybody. Oh, okay. I'm supposed to laugh at that. You know what I mean? Like, you know, oh, I got pissed off. I should have got pissed off. It's needed. Everyone should be shot in the arm with a comedy show, at least once a year. At least once a year you should go to a comedy show.

And in tough times, you really need it. Definitely. You really need it. You really need it. You have lost a lot of people that you're close to. Lost your brother, your mom, your dad. You started doing comedy, stepped back a minute when you got some advice from Jamie Fox. I read, you know, I read all this. And he told you live a little bit and then come back to it.

after you lived a little bit. Did comedy help you cope with all of this? Yeah, I don't, see, when people say cope, I don't know what that means because it's just life, like living. Cope means like being able to deal with life, right? No, my coping, you know, yeah, my, you know, my cope, I just like take care of you. I can't explain it.

Like, how do I cope? It sounds like I'm hearing your dad here. It sounds like, again, this is just what you're supposed to do. You know, sometimes it's tough. And I just feel like, just live, like live. this is life. But I guess maybe yes that it's an outlet of being able to go up and then talk about stuff. Because whenever I would tell a joke and if it was, you know,

which was always about my life, and you would get that familiarity from the audience. Like you get some people going, like laughing because they go, oh, that happens to me all the time. Oh, yeah, that's a bit of therapy for yourself because you go, yeah, I'm not the only one going through this. Yeah, this is normal. Does that make sense? Yeah, totally makes sense.

So yeah, maybe, yeah, maybe comedy did help me cope with a lot of stuff. You're absolutely right. We call it therapy all the time. Comedians call their work therapy. Yeah, I mean, therapy for both of us, for the audience and for the performing. I wonder if it's also if there's a certain power that goes with that, because I think some of the most honest conversations in America happen on a comedy stage. You can go places, you can say things, you can read people, you can speak truth to power

in a way that you can't in a lot of other places. And it's very, very, that's a very tricky, tricky thing, too, to not let it do that. Because you are not God. And you have been permitted a skill that is a gift. And this is why I tell people all the time, you did not create it. You may be good at it, but you didn't create it. When I die, comedy's still going to be here. Comedy is just going to go through somebody else.

You can sing good, oh, good. You could do them good runs, girl. But let me tell you something. When you stop singing, we're going to. pick somebody else because that's what the art does. So yeah, when you get up on stage and you have this power, the only thing that I take control and power of is really, really, and this is the honest truth. Laughter and joy. I want to take that power and just shove it in your face. Like, especially if I see somebody that's not smiling, oh, I keen right into them. I look at them a lot.

I eye with them when I'm talking about stuff. So they can feel. like, oh, she sees me. Like, she sees me. Whatever it is you're going through, dude. Whatever it is you going through, I'm right here. I'm right here. Let's talk. Because I can feel your pain. I feel something. I want you to laugh. And eventually they break. I've seen people with their hands up and they'll eventually just be like, you could see that because that is a responsibility. Does that make sense? Like butter and jelly has a responsibility to be on top of toast. Does that make sense? Help me with that. Okay, I'll put it like this. like this. The toast is toasting. You know what I'm saying? The butter is buttering. Okay, I'm the jelly. It's my responsibility to be jelly. All right? So it's my responsibility to take that joy and spread it out

to this audience. That's a responsibility that is something that you take serious. You don't take that for granted. When you think of home and you think of something that tastes like home for you, What is one of the things that makes you feel like, this, this is comfort food? Because we always like to share a recipe with our listeners. Dressing. Dressing. Not stuffing. Dressing.

Okay? Cornbread dressing. If you can make some good dressing, my aunt is, well, my grandmother used to be the only one who could make me dressing because she was. My mother could never make dress. She always put too much sage in there and it would be green. And we'd be like, you need to go talk to grandma and ask her what she put in hers because this is not good. Dressing is my, like they know every time I come home, somebody got to cook dress. And not just for the holidays.

You eat dressing all year round. Oh, I literally have three. Like when my aunt comes here, she fixes me two big pans and she freezes it. So when I take it out the freezer, I throw it in a pan and bake it. and it tastes like she just made it. What is so special about this dressing? It's so good, girl, you have dressing, right? I know what you're talking about, but what's so good about this dressing?

Well, let me explain to the listeners. It's like having a whole meal in your mouth. It's so good, especially turkey dressing. Oh, my God. Just the seasonings and the cornbread and the meat and the yummy dama, yummy tamitam. I don't know what makes dressing dressing, but it's like eating, oh, especially when she's making it and get ready to put it in a pan,

she let me taste it. I like it when it's like that and she won't let me eat it like that bit but I'll grab like some because it's so good. It's got raw eggs in it so she's probably trying to protect you from that because it does have a little bit of rights

but does she put sausage in it? No. Okay, I'm just trying to figure out if you said so. You must be from Louisiana. What part of the sausage you from? Because they do put sausage inside. I don't like no. Just use turkey.

She uses turkey. Right. She uses turkey or chicken or chicken. She has made pork dressing before too. But she always makes giblet gravy. All the little pieces in it. Yep, I know. Exactly. It's really a poultry, to me, dish. It's more of a poultry dish. So she can use chicken. You can use chicken. You can use turkey. I know white people looking at this like, what in the hell are they talking about? You have some gravy on it? With gravy. With gravy. Give some gravy on it? Yeah, Ghiblet gravy. You take the giblets and the neck and stuff, you know, how you boil that and then make the gravy out of that. It sounds delicious. I'm going to have to get, you know, do you have a written down somewhere, the recipe?

Yes, I do. We're going to get that from you. We're going to get that. Literally, we wrote, I talked to my grandmother, like maybe years before. Say that again. Say that again. Because we have talked to some people who say that they want the taste of home, but they can't find it because no one ever wrote the recipe down.

So it's so important to actually interview those people, get their recipes. When she was, I don't know what made me do this one night. I called her and I said, because this is when she's right of mind and she's happy and stuff. I was like, Big Mama, we're going to sit on the phone and you're going to tell me every recipe. And I just sat and I wrote the recipe for dressing. I wrote the recipe for her cornbread for egg custard pie. Matter of fact, no one could get the egg custard pie. And my cousin was like, yo, do you have that recipe?

And I sent it to him, he was like, nobody had the recipe to the egg custard pie. To her greens, ribs, she gave me all the main ones. So that's important. Get those recipes because you want to make sure. Yeah. Just go get on the phone with your grandma real quick. And just even if you don't cook. get on your phone with your grandmama and just start writing recipes.

I have one last question. When you have come up in life, you come from, you grew up in a kitchen that was pretty simple, and then suddenly life is good to you. You've got a little bit of coin. You've got a little bit of money. You have a little bit of real estate. And you can create the kitchen of your dreams with islands and double ovens and multiple cooktops. But what do you do to make sure that even when you're in your kitchen that reflects all the success that you've had in life,

that it has that thing that made the kitchen you grew up in special. What is that thing in your kitchen now? Ooh, I guess a cast iron skillet. A cast iron skillet. I think that's the staple, yeah. I got like three of them. I got the big one. I got the little small one where you can make syrup in it.

And then I got the little medium one. Yeah, that's so funny because I'm not a kitchen person. I like my kitchen to be off on the side, hidden, because I don't like that open concept where people can see my damn dishes and dishware. I don't like that. So I like my kitchen very, not non-personality, but very nonchalant.

Pretty clean. That's all you need. Functional things. But a cast iron skillet was one of the first things. That and that big dressing pan. Oh, God. The way you talk about the dressing, you got to have the big dressing pan.

And I may have to hit you up to find out, you know, to help people understand when you have a skillet, you have to take care of it. You know, no soap on it. Yeah, because it will rust. Yes, you have to take care of it. Put a little layer of a little layer of grease on it before you put it away. Yeah, you know what I'm saying?

Before you put it in to the thing, you got to take care of it. Leslie Fn Jones. Hey, you got to use it. I have loved talking to you. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. I appreciate you. Well, I told you that was going to be a lot of fun.

Leslie Jones is one of a kind. And wasn't it something to hear her talk about how she uses her comedy like a magnetic force field to pull people in and to help pull them through tough stuff. Making people laugh day after day is a skill. Making people feel seen and understood while making them laugh, well, that's a gift. This show is called Your Mama's Kitchen, but I'm so glad we heard about Leslie's father's role in that space and the way he nurtured his daughter's growth, and particularly her confidence as a performer. I think anyone who's bent over and laughter watching Leslie Jones do her thing

will have a special thank you for him for seeing and supporting her talent. I hope you all follow Leslie's advice to sit down with the people who fed you and get all those recipes like Leslie did with her grandma. Those recipes will be worth their weight in gold. Trust me on that. Now, if you want to make that cornbread dressing Leslie loves so much, You can find her grandma's recipe on my Instagram page at Michelle underscore underscore Norris. That's two underscores.

And you can also find it at our new website, your mama's kitchen.com. While you were there, you can also find all the recipes from all of our previous podcasts. And one last thing. We want to hear from you. We are opening up our inbox for you to record yourself and tell us about your mama's kitchens. We want to hear about their memories, the recipes, what it was like. like growing up in that space. Make sure to send us a voice memo at yMK at highergroundproductions.com. Again, that's yMK at highergroundproductions.com for a chance to be featured in a future episode.

Thanks for joining us. I hope the new year is off to a great start. See you next week. And until then, be bountiful. Higher Ground and Audible original produced by Higher Ground Studios. Senior producer Natalie Wren, producer Sonia Tund, sound design and engineering from Andrew Eepin and Ryan Kuzlowski. Higher Ground audio's editorial assistants are Jen 11 and Camilla Thurtecuse. Executive producers for Higher Ground are Nick White, Mukta Monaghan, Dan Feerman, and me, Michelle Norris. Executive producers for Audible are Nick DeAngelo and Anne Hepperman.

The show's closing song is 504 by the Soul. Roble. Editorial and web support from Melissa Baer and Say What Media. Talent Booker, Angela Paluso. Chief Content Officer Rachel Giazza, and that's it. Goodbye, everybody. Come back soon. Copyright 2023 by Higher Ground Audio LLC. Sound recording copyright, 2023 by Higher Ground Audio LLC.