Michelle Obama: The Light Podcast - Maria Bamford

Episode Date: March 20, 2024

On this episode of Your Mama’s Kitchen, we’re joined by Maria Bamford. She’s a comedian, actor, and now a New York Times bestselling author with her memoir Sure, I’ll Join Your Cult, released in late 2023. Maria talks about her Midwestern upbringing, her journey with obsessive compulsive disorder, and the delicious pot roast she still craves from childhood.Maria Bamford is an American actress and stand-up comedian. She’s the first female comic with two half-hour “Comedy Central Presents” specials, and her critically acclaimed work includes her web series The Maria Bamford Show (featured at MOMA NY), Ask My Mom (recommended by The New Yorker), and her Netflix series Lady Dynamite (2 seasons). Bamford’s Audible Original You are (a Comedy) Special and multiple comedy albums are on all major streaming platforms.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

A recipe for Maryland. Number one, make a tangy dressing of lemon juice, dijon mustard, olive oil, and vinegar without measuring and toss with abandon. Two, serve with good bread. Toasted with very good olive oil and garlic. The most important thing about the bread is that no matter what you get, you must say it is the best and why. Number three, make up your own good.

and stand fast. Your emotion will carry this dish. Welcome to Your Mama's Kitchen, the podcast that explores how the kitchens we grew up in as kids shape who we become as adults. I'm Michelle Norris. What happens when the voices that you hear in your head aren't coming from the people who surround you in the kitchen? When thoughts about dark and dangerous things invade your psyche and your sense of security? Maria Bamford has been negotiating with the intrusive thoughts and voices in her head since she was a kid, as a confused teenager, as an adult committed to therapy, and as a comedian and actor whose edgy and alarmingly honest humor often deals squarely with the things she's overcome. You might know her from her series Lady Dynamite and two comedy specials, old baby and special special on Netflix.

She's also a New York Times best-selling author with her memoir, Sure, I'll join your cult. It was released in late 2023. The book explores the intricacies of her family life, from relationships and fame to her lifelong journey with obsessive-compulsive disorder or OCD. Raised in Minnesota, Maria's childhood was classically Midwestern, yet Midwestern with a twist. Her family may not have seasoned their food much, and we'll hear more about that soon, but things could get spicy in the kitchen nonetheless. Her family, family blended a combination of tell it like I want to frankness with passive aggressive nudges toward conformity. Her mother kept a pristine ammonia-scented kitchen. Her father, he was a physician,

and Bamford's fans have gotten to know both of them because Maria so often impersonates them with eerie accuracy in her routines. Bamford's strength as a comedian is her willingness to be candid about the most troubling parts of her own experiences, checking herself into a psychiatric Ward, staging her own death as a kid, even owning up to her own mistakes and apologizing to close friends. That can't be easy. In this episode, we will learn where that openness springs from. We'll also hear about the surprising competitiveness around addiction treatment, how Bamford uses impersonations to rewrite narratives in her own life and the key to making a beautifully marbled pot roast.

All that is coming up. Maria Bamford, thanks for being with us. Thank you for having me. I've been looking forward to this conversation. Awesome. You are someone who talks so much about your family life that I almost feel like I've been in your kitchens. I can envision it a little bit because I, too, I'm from Minnesota.

Oh, my gosh. Where? I'm from the cities. I grew up in the south side of Minneapolis. Mom still lives there. Nice. Yes. And if we talk too long, I might slip into my Minnesota accent also.

Oh, no. You betcha, yeah. Yeah, hey. But I want you to describe the kitchen for me. If you closed your eyes and you walked back into that kitchen, you and your sister are there, your mom's at the stove, your dad's, maybe in a plaid chair or in the other room, what does that kitchen look like and smell like and feel like? It was full, like, this brown tile.

So it was all tiled, sort of this ceramic tile. My mom would be a shame that I didn't know the exact brand of that tile because I think she really designed it. She was proud of it. She was very proud of it. Yeah, my mom was very much into, like our whole house was in variations of white. So very clean, very clean. Even when you were kids, your house was all white? Pretty, yeah, pretty.

We kept it high and tight. But she wasn't really a big cook. She was often on a diet. So who would do the smell? I think ammonia. That was very clean. Ammonia? Did you say ammonia?

Yeah. Pinesol? It was not pine cell. Oh, my gosh. Oh, there's a difference. Okay. No. Oh, my.

No, she's not my mom. Yeah, it was just very clean. and you had to keep things very clean in our house. My mom loved to have dinner parties, like to have people over. Meal preparation was something my mom did on her own, and then usually all the fat was removed from it. Calories extracted? Calories extracted all the good parts.

Where's the butter? No, see, this is the opposite of my family, because we were injecting fat into our food. There was a can of bacon grease, quite literally, on the stove. Which is a great idea. I remember going over, I was dating a guy in my high school, and I went to his house for food once. And I was like, what is this wonderful thing called Crisco? And can we, is it in a larger container?

Because I think I'm going to need more of it. Yeah. I know my mom, yeah, she was just raised in a way that was very diet oriented. So, but she was great to make it a salad. And then my dad actually cooked quite a bit just for fun. So he would make bread and he was experimental. I remember in college he sent me rye bread with frozen blueberries in it, which is a big mistake. It's not good.

Yeah, that's an interesting flavor profile. And heavy bricks of it. I basically, I used them as a doorstop. I was thinking that it would be a good doorstop or maybe weapon. So I heard something recently that has made me think about our mothers, our collective mother's kitchen. A friend of mine said that she could always tell when her mom was working something out because there was an anger meal. There was a meal that she made when she was always like cooking through gritted teeth. And now I'm wondering, because I know my mom had gritted teeth at some point in her life, I know that, you know, if you're a woman of her age and,

Raising kids in the 1970s for all kinds of reasons. Feminism, you know, we're black folks dealing with America as black folks. Teenagers. Yes. You know, all kinds of things. So now I've been wondering, what was my mom's anger meal? Do you think your mom had an anger meal? Well, when you mentioned it, I think it was probably when my mom was always starting a diet.

It would be like a diet, like she's in, like she just started. I don't know if you remember the diet center where from what I can tell. I don't remember the diet center, but it sounds like it involved like cottage cheese and boiled eggs. You take the skin off the chicken, you cut an apple, a green apple up into 19 slices or something. Oh, not even a sweet apple, a tart green apple. Boo! Just so rough.

And so she would make the chicken for us and a salad. And yeah, the chicken would be. not great. Because when you, I mean, she did her best. And any seasoning on that chicken? Not a ton. And I love seasoning. I love hot sauce.

I love something. I want something burning down my throat. Probably because there wasn't a lot of stuff on anything. But I would say it was that. Like it was the beginning of a diet meal for the family where you're like, oh, why do we have to suffer? So she didn't. bifurcate the menu. Like she didn't have the skinless, boneless, seasonless chicken for herself.

No. And then let you all have chicken nuggets and tater tots. No, no, no, no, no, no. We had one of the most epic meals of our childhood, which were, I believe, my mom didn't like this shirt that my dad loved. And he was wearing it to work. And she tossed mustard on him. playfully. So he wouldn't wear the shirt. So he wouldn't wear the shirt that he was wearing. He was put it on.

It was a beautiful shirt. It was a red shirt covered in blue strawberries. And kind of like a 70s awesome, long-collared type deal, kind of disco. And my dad then took one of her favorite pieces of China and threw it on the ground just to crash it. And that was, I mean, that's probably the most. I'm just, you know, I don't want to belabor the point, but I'm trying to go from you went from the strawberry 22 lettered, you know, the shirt with the big collar and the mustard to the saucer being thrown on the ground? I think just the discussion escalated where my mom was saying what you wear and what you look like, you know, you got to be well dressed is like was part of a...

Is that that high and tight thing again? Yeah, a belief system for my mom. So she felt like if my dad was below par that some, Somehow it would seem like she had a light homophobia, so she got scared that my dad would look gay. I wonder if that was part of the shirt thing. Also, she worried he would lose his job because he was wearing something, you know, out of the ordinary. Yes, she really had some deep, seated fears that had to do with looks. And conformity. And conformity.

Mm-hmm. I loved getting. to know your mother through your comedy work, through really hearing her, you know, because it almost feels like you channel her when you talk about her. I loved reading about her in your book. And I love that your book includes these recipes at the end of every chapter. And sometimes they're actually recipes. Sometimes it's like there's one that's a chip on the floor, like someone left a chip on the floor. And would you say pick it up and eat it with confidence? Yeah, because it's a treasure.

Do you have your book with you? Oh, my gosh. Of course I do. I'm a monster. I'm a monster. I'm a monster. The book is, sure, I'll join your cult, and you say the first cult that you were a part of is your family. But on page 52, and this is a chapter that was, it was a chapter about your mom, and you talk about your mother's passing.

And it was really, really, really beautiful. And at the end, you made me laugh with this recipe for mom. And I would like you to read it because the way that you have written and designed the book, I think that it's, I guess, intended for emphasis to read the way that you speak. So there are several things that are in all caps for emphasis. And I would just like you to walk through the three steps. You know that this recipe is all about self-possession. You know what to do.

Walk us through this recipe. And I'll do it in my mom's voice, a recipe for Maryland. Number one, make a tangy dressing of lemon juice, djean mustard, olive oil, and vinegar without measuring and toss with abandon. Two, serve with good bread, okay, toasted with very good olive oil and garlic. The most important thing about the bread is that no matter what you get or where you get from, you must say it is the best and why. The why can be anything, the story of how you found the store where you purchased the bread or about the type of bread or some memory of being a little girl and always wanting to try that bread. Number three, make up your own good

and stand fast. Your emotion will carry this dish. The recipe also notes that you need fresh mixed greens, fresh all in caps, all in caps, right place, good goat cheese and it says you know what I mean, and sliced grapes, roasted walnuts. I'm not going to spell it out for you. I wonder if this recipe suggests that cooking is about more than just the ingredients. It's about the attitude that you bring. I think completely. Like, I think that was something I realized after my mom passed, that my mom, I always thought,

oh, she just knew the right thing all the time because I felt kind of lost when she died. And then I realized, oh, no, I think she just chose to see what. whatever she got or what if she chose as the best, which blew my mind, I was like, oh, that's the key. It's just to say whatever you get as, that's the best. The best. My mom would always be recommending stuff, connecting people. She would find degrees of connection with anybody. So, you know, no matter how loose it was, you know. So now you said, Your name is lips. Now, are you from Tucson? Like, she would just, like, yeah, she was just wonderful. I love my mom. She had a real enthusiasm for life, which I sometimes lack. But I think pretending goes a long way. She was a family therapist. She may have been practicing some of what she preached. Yes. Yeah, for sure, for sure.

What did your mom think about your fairly constant impersonations of her? At first, she was just grateful that I had any direction in life. So she was like, oh, all right, what are you going to do? And then when there was some external validation, I think it became a little bit more like proprietary, where she was like, well, I have a couple of ideas for you. Honey, and she became more performative to me. And I'd be like, I think that sounds like a sales job. That last story, you told me.

And also, she would be hurt by something that I said. Oh, was that hard for you? Oh, yeah. I mean, I feel terrible. Did she let you know? Because that's another, that's another Minnesota thing is that you don't always let people know when you're hurt. But you figure out how to hope that they find out.

It's kind of that passive, aggressive. of, well, she would say, she would say it. My family is very, would talk about anything. My dad was a physician, so we talked about lots of different things at the dinner table. Yeah, my mom was very open about sex, you know, at the same times being horrified, but, you know, saying, you know, there are so many diseases out there, honey, and there are people who will rape you. And there are situations where you can be put in grave danger. But also the body is a beautiful thing. Like, you know.

And you'll figure out how to find a balance somewhere in there. You said that the first time I read that, Maria, I read that you said that your dad cried the first time he saw you do his voice on stage. What happened? I did it to his face because he had asked me to do an impersonation of him. And so, because he said or felt left out. And so I was like, I'm all right. I think my first joke about him was my dad is really just a series of sound effects.

What? What? No, I like you. What do you want? What? So, and I've had people do impersonations face to face of me, to me. And it's awful. It's just awful to see.

Wait, you don't like when people do it to you. Oh my gosh. It's your. It's your things that people find adorable. But when you, you know, like I fancy myself a strong woman, you know, like inside, I guess, you know, I think I sound, you know, very, I sound like the character for maud, you know, like I'm a maud. Like, be author? Yeah, like I'm a strong woman with great ideas. And then when somebody does, oh, it's like a high voice and I'm mincing around looking for words and hemming and hawing, I'm like, no, that's not how I sound. But it turns out, that's how I sound.

Uh-oh. Well, the impersonation is a way to capture someone, but it's also a way to hold on to someone. I feel like it is a way to love or give an homage to someone, but it is also saying, oh, this person gives me a lot of emotion. Like that's the only reason you come up with an impersonation with somebody is because you've had an emotional response to their existence and to control them. Like I love fictionalizing different interactions I've had with them in creating little. narratives where they see the thing that I've always want them to say. You can create the parent you wanted.

Yeah. So speaking of narratives, I wonder, the kitchens are interesting spaces because all kinds of things happen there. It's not just about eating. And there's a language of the kitchen that is different maybe than the rest of the house. Were there things that your parents said

that you find yourself saying today that you wonder, what did that mean? did they say it and why am I saying? I'm thinking of something like heaven's to burgundy. My mom would always say ever since I was a little girl, I have always wanted to, and leading up to whatever it was, which meant that held weight. You know, like we had to do it. Because ever since I was a little girl, I've always wanted to get culots in a navy blue that also, you know, fit properly, but a low waist, not a highway. You know, it's like, oh my God, we got to go find those culots and stat. You know, so I think that's why she would say this because it was like,

this is the child in me who's requesting that we go to that restaurant at the top of the building that spins. She loved a restaurant that spins. Oh, this is something my husband and I all say to each other, which my dad would say, which is, well, if that's what you're going to do, I guess that's what you're going to do. Which meant your bananas. Like, that meant you're crazy. And what you're doing is ill-advised, if not unethical. And hope you don't poke an eye out when you do it. You know, yeah, that's, I think I had a version, And senior producer on the show is also from Minnesota. Natalie Wren, and we were talking about speaking Minnesota. And one of the things my mom used to say to me,

are you aware in that today? Oh, God, yes. Oh, that was so painful. My mom would look me up and down. And she wouldn't say anything. She would just go, oh, God. Okay. All right.

It's fine. That's fine. Honey, would you comb your hair? Just a comb. I've always been a little feral. Like, I just, I don't, I don't want to do the things. I refuse. Thank you very much. Stay with us. We've got more with Maria Bamford coming up. And we want to hear from you about your mama's kitchens. Maybe you want to tell us about your mom's favorite dish. Maybe something that tastes like home. We'd love to hear that. Make sure to send us a voice memo at yMK at highergroundproductions.com and you might be featured in a future episode. More coming up.

So you're not afraid of dirt. You're not a germaphobe. But you've talked openly about dealing with OCD. Yes, because there are different types of OCD. Look it up on the IOCDF, the International OCD Foundation.org website, Google, Google, there's intrusive thoughts OCD, which is the type that I have. And it's anything really that involves an obsession and then a compulsion to make that obsession go away. But the IOCDF is pretty wonderful because it's all free and they have lots of online groups because sometimes you can't, unless you're in a major city, it's hard to get specific OCD help.

But yeah, it changed my life once I got some treatment for it. You know, it's one of the many things I appreciate your book. It's very funny and it's very poignant. But you also write about mental illness in a way that I had not experienced before and your approach, the lilt in your voice when you're talking about very, very serious and challenging things. And also that you remind us that there are, you know, these are challenges that have many doors. And so when you talk, about bulimia, for instance, your bulimia was very different. People think about that as binging and purging. In your case, you were eating and then doing calisthenics for 22 hours in a row or something like that. Yeah. And I mean, I think whenever something's it's in the eyes of the beholder. So if it's ruining your life, you know, it's like you're not able to function in relationships or work or school or whatever, then that's, maybe that's a problem. But I think

things are only a problem if the person who has it thinks it's an issue. But yeah, definitely, bulimia, I was not the worst case. There's some competitiveness when you have an addiction. But did you blow out your esophagus? No, I didn't. No, I did not.

Wait, there's some competitiveness? I mean, when you're in treatment, that's... Oh, my guess. Have you have you, I mean, human beings, we love to one up. Yeah, right, right. So, I mean, just sometimes compassion doesn't come without severity. So where are you on the spectrum so I can decide? Yeah, so I can decide whether you really need help. What degree of compassion I'm going to serve up to you.

Yeah, and also people are irritating in your life. Oh, yeah. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. So if somebody in your life who's already a pain in the ass, goes, guess what I just found out about myself? I have this new thing. And I think you're just going to be, it's exhausting.

You know, like I know I have been tiresome to my friends and family. Oh, guess what? Maria was in the hospital. Like, it's just, it's not a ton of fun. So I understand people's disdain for wanting to talk about, and this is mental illness or a, otherwise, you know, any kind of, you know, it's not. But you talk about it so openly. And is that something that is easy for you or is that part of how you cope with something? Is it a coping

mechanism or is it something that just comes naturally and it's in your head? And so you want to talk about it. You want to actually have, let's have this conversation. It's very easy, super easy. I work in entertainment where it is much more open, like I'm not going to lose. my job. If I say I have a mental health diagnosis, I, yeah, all the things. I have all the privileges. I have generational wealth. I have all, you know, I have union work. Protections of one kind of another. Yeah. Yeah. All the things. I have a raised in a culture. My mom was very pro-therapy, all that stuff. So yeah, I've, I am not just lucky, but is systematically gifted. And because your mom was pro-therapy, because your mother was pro-therapy, and because she was a

therapist herself, did that mean that the conversations that you had at the kitchen table were different than they were, maybe in a lot of other households? Well, my mom didn't become a therapist until after we left the house. So I think the one thing that really changed when she became a therapist was that she was able to apologize really well. Like, she was able to just say, I'm sorry, and then leave it, which is a very difficult thing to do. Like, whatever I say, I'm sorry. I always want to say, the thing is that I was trying to. It's like, nope, that's not what you do.

You say, I'm sorry. You say what it is you think that the other person was hurt by. You verify that? Was that? I'm looking for a pen so I can write this down because, you know, the art of an apology is a thing. And most people, most of us have not mastered that skill. Yeah, no, I've read about how to apologize so that I know better. Because that's the thing.

It's not I'm sorry if I offended you. Oh, no. It puts it on you. Oh, no, not at all. No, yeah, you got to say, this is what I did. This is why it was shitty. And this is what I've learned about this. Is that correct?

Or did I get that correct to the person? Is that correct? Is that correct? If I didn't, please let me know or is there a book I can read also. Also, no pressure if you're too angry at me to respond. because I don't want to give somebody who's pissed at me the extra work. You know, friends, you know, go like, and guess what? You have to teach me.

Teach me about why I'm bad. Or absolve me now so I can go on with my day. Like, even though you still have indigestion and, you know, you're not sleeping and you're grinding your teeth, this is a conversation that our listeners might want to put on rerun. You know how you can hit that button backward 15 seconds, backward 15 seconds, and take some notes because no. knowing how to make an apology is a very good thing in life. And it's not something that's well taught. So thank you very much for walking us through that. I'm going to be putting that on rewind and taking notes myself. Yeah. And I am obviously, I am not a perfect person. So if any of my dear friends are listening to this, let me know if I've done something weird recently.

Despite a childhood full of her mother's particular kind of flavor-free cuisine and a general anxiety around cooking, Maria still found her way into the kitchen. There's a bit more flavor involved in her dishes, but much like her mother, she loves to throw a dinner party. I've done some cooking shows since writing this book because I've done some recipes, and I'm just starting to tell affirmations because affirmations are so powerful. even if they're quite possibly irrational, just saying in a confident voice of someone I am not close friends with, I am a great cook. And I just, I lose myself in a recipe and I just enjoy cooking. And I've started saying that, and I'm hoping that will change me.

Is it working? Are you losing yourself? Are you enjoying cooking? Is it at least different than it was before, where it felt like it was a bit torturous? I made a New York Times lasagna recipe. Oh, girl, you made a lasagna? That's like, wait, whoa, you just, I'm not going to go climb the hill, you know, at the corner of my block.

I'm going to scale Mount Everest. You started with lasagna? Lassania and invited people over. And those people enjoyed that lasagna and were, like I said it was awesome, even though I skipped a couple steps by accident. Whoops. You improvised. And that voice would just tell you, you just gave it your own special spin. You know what? I just love to play. I like to play at the pot.

Okay. Every time you say that voice, I'm trying to figure out whose voice is it, because it's recognizable and I just can't. It's a voice of anybody who's extremely confident and just knows themselves. I have never been, never been that person. But I like to be able to pretend I can be. be that person. I definitely now, I love to have people over. We just had people over last night, made my lasagna, and then I like to have potlucks.

And I love an island of misfit toys. I always tell everybody, bring whoever you want. No need to ask me. I don't need to know. You know, bring four people. I don't care. Yeah, because it's Los Angeles, so you never know, like, 10 people can ask you P, we're coming.

And then nobody shows up. So I always say, I like your description, an island of misfit toys. I like that. Yeah, that was one thing in my childhood that really I worried about, like, my mom would have these dinner parties. And then, you, we went to church. So you'd hear all the great stories of everybody in, you know. And then I'd say, well, why don't we invite this man who is experiencing schizophrenia who goes to our church?

And she's, oh, no, oh, we can't have that. Honey, we just, we just can't. I can't, you know, I just can't do it. And so that's what I feel like now. I just go, I want everybody, you know, I don't care if somebody's having a weird psychiatric issue right now or like the hospital's not going to be able to take them for eight hours anyways, have them come over and have a beer. Yeah, I don't want to have those limitations to who's invited. It's almost like Jose Andrei talks about longer tables. Yes. That's what we need in life is longer tables. Yes, yes.

Maria Bamford, what does home taste like for you? What is a, what is, you know, the childhood meal. We always leave our listeners with a recipe if you wanted to. share something that means something special to you. What would that be? Well, from childhood, which is now brought into adulthood, both my parents have passed. My husband knows that I love this dish from childhood. And it's pot roast with lots of fat, lots of fat on it, because that's what I mostly eat. I don't really like the meat part. I just like the fat. And then the sauerkraut. And so It's really a greasy crout situation.

And he makes that for me, but that's something my mother would make. She couldn't possibly get all the fat off that because you can. It's built into the roast. It's marvelled. It's inside the roast. Yeah. And that was the favorite thing that my mom would make and my husband makes it for me. Now, on special days when I've been good. And so that's, yeah, I hope.

I'll put it in his ear. Hopefully he'll make it sometime, maybe this week. I have enjoyed talking to you. Thanks so much for sharing your stories. Thank you. And everybody, yeah, just affirm that you're a great cook. It'll better the odds that it'll happen. Well, how about that? Maria Bamford, now hosting her own dinner party serving food she cooked and proving that we can always try and maybe even succeed at something new, even if we miss a couple of steps. I love the idea of a come-as-you-are dinner party that's a bit like an island for misfit toys, a table where everyone feels welcome, regardless of what they might be slogging through in life. Maria reminds us that we can choose to do and make and embody what brings us joy,

and also choose to forgive the people from our past and to go easy on ourselves. Maria Bamford found humor in facing hard truths. She also found her voice and a great big audience. She didn't run away from the tough stuff. She faced it, and that authenticity became her trademark, whether she was telling her own stories or channeling one of her parents through her impersonations. Whether in the kitchen or in life, authenticity is a special ingredient. Didn't Maria Bamford's pot roast sound delicious? If you want some tips on how to make a good Midwestern pot roast, head over to my Instagram page at Michelle underscore underscore Norris, that's two underscores, or go to our website. your mama's kitchen.com. You'll find all the recipes from all the previous episodes there.

And before we go, we want to hear from you. We want to hear about your mama's kitchens. Thoughts on some of the stories you've heard on this podcast. Maybe you want to share what tastes like home to you. We want to hear all of that. Make sure to send us a voice memo at yMK at higher ground productions.com and you might just be featured in a future episode. That's it for today. Goodbye, everybody. please come back next week. And until then, he about to pull. This has been a higher ground

and audible original produced by Higher Ground Studios. Senior producer Natalie Wren, producer Sonia Tun. Additional production support by Misha Jones, sound design and engineering from Andrew Eepin and Ryan Kuzlowski. Higher Ground Audio's editorial assistant is Camilla Thurtecuse,

Executive producers for Higher Ground are Nick White, Mukta Mohan, Dan Fehrman, and me, Michelle Norris. Executive producers for Audible are Nick DeAngelo and Anne Hepperman. The show's closing song is 504 by The Soul Rebels. Editorial and web support from Melissa Bear and Say What Media, talent booker Angela Paluso. Chief Content Officer Rachel Giazza, and that's it. Goodbye, everybody. Copyright 2023 by Higher Ground Audio LLC. Sound recording copyright 23 by Higher Ground Audio LLC.