Michelle Obama: The Light Podcast - Sam Sanders on the Healing Powers of Smothered Chicken

Episode Date: July 22, 2025

Journalist, podcast host and radio star Sam Sanders takes us back to his roots in Texas, where everyone one in his house was a cook and there was a local "rabbit" man who sold all kinds of meat from his truck; including possum. Sam opens up about a special moment he shared with his mom as she was recovering from stroke, while cooking her special Smothered Chicken Recipe.Check out Sam's podcast The Sam Sanders Show and Vibe Check.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

This podcast is brought to you by our friends at Alloy Health. I also remember this older black man who would just come by in his pickup truck selling produce and like animals he caught. And every few months, I remember my mother, we once got a rabbit from him, had rabbit stew. So the rabbit man brought a possum one day in the truck. And my dad was like, to my mother, I want you to cook at. I can tell she loved this man because she cooked the possum. She don't want none.

My brother don't want any. I don't want any. So we just leave while my father sits at the kitchen table alone, eating possum. Hello, hello. Welcome back to your mama's kitchen. This is a place where we explore

how we are shaped as adults by the kitchens that we grew up in as kids. Of course, we're talking about food, but so much more. The arguments, the surprises at the stove, the way that we would eavesdrop on our parents and all the stuff that we perhaps weren't supposed to hear. I'm Michelle Norris. And our guest today is Sam Sanders. He is an award-winning reporter and host of

several shows, so you've probably heard him before, shows like Intuit from Vulture. It's been a minute when he was at NPR. And right now, he's co-hosting yet another beloved podcast called Vibe Check on Sirius XM. Sam stays busy. And he also stays in touch. And he also stays in touch. with his Texas roots, and we're going to talk a little bit about that today. Hey, Sam. Hi, so good to be here. Good to see you again. Now, I remember you from the days when we both worked at NPR, and I'm wondering if you have shoes on, because one of the things that I remember about you is that you were always walking around that building with your socks on. Yes, I'm not wearing shoes right now. I somehow knew that would be the case. You knew it. Yeah, I always just like, I felt more comfortable when my shoes. were off, which meant I worked better when my shoes were off. And then I got in the habit of wearing really fun, funky socks. And my colleagues would seem and be like, those are cool socks.

It's kind of my thing. And most people would kick off their shoes maybe when they were at their desk. But you were like all over the building, tiny desk concert. Sam has no shoes on in the cafeteria. Sam with no shoes. So I'm glad you're comfortable today. Yes, very, very. It's an honor to be here. It's great to have you. It's great to have you. Well, you know how this show. works. We always begin with that six-word question. Tell me about your mama's kitchen. Let's go back to Texas. Tell me about the kitchen of your youth. Yeah. It was a kitchen in which my mother knew how to cook and knew how to cook really well, but she only cooked when she wanted to. You know, she was, yeah, yeah. So the kitchen was there, and a lot of times it was just not being used,

and we were okay with that. So she was one of six kids. from Birmingham, Alabama, grew up as a girl of the South, and all my aunts, I had four aunts and one uncle, they all knew how to cook, my mother knew how to cook. But she was also a working woman. She was a middle school principal, and her and my dad owned some small businesses. So she was always busy,

so she didn't cook unless she just really wanted to. And I remember from an early age, kind of admiring that. Like, she wasn't going to be stuck. She wasn't going to let any part of domesticity keep her from being a woman out in the world. But when she did cook, it was so good because she just knew. She just knew. She made a mean German chocolate cake.

She could do all kinds of soul food. But she also was never afraid to kind of outsource the labor. we had a close family friend, Miss Mary, who would just cook for us sometime. And so many times, Miss Mary would come over on a Monday, cook enough for all of us to have for the week, and it would just be the best, richest, most amazing soul food. So I think my first memory of my mother's kitchen

was a space that was a space that was a... part of her life, but never got in her way, and a space that she wasn't afraid to share with other strong black women, you know? But when she did cook, my God, it was good. I love learning about the culinary economy because we just talked to Lala Anthony recently, and she said her mom had someone who outsource, you know, she needed collard greens, and she knew who she could call. There is this sort of secret underground economy for working folks, and, you know, in communities of color, people often are working folks, that you knew who you could call for if you didn't have time to make the German chocolate cake.

You could call someone for a red velvet cake or a German chocolate cake or a pound cake. Or if you had a holiday, you needed some fried chicken or you needed some fried fish or you needed some red beans and rice, you knew who to call. We had Miss Dorothy for Chitlands once a year. And my brother and I would clear out of the house while my dad and mother ate the Chiltern because I was just like, these things stink. But we had a kid with you on that. You can snap my soul sister license.

I just can't do. I can't do it. I can't do it. Can't do it. And then we also had, we just called him the rabbit man. So we grew up outside of San Antonio, Texas, but in Sagan, this very small town. And my mother was a country girl. And my dad was even more country from East Texas.

And in my youth, I also remember this older black man who would just come by in his pickup truck with like wood panels on the side. selling produce and like animals he caught. And every few months, I remember my mother, we once got a rabbit from him, had rabbit stew. And then one time, my dad was like, to the rabbit man, do you have possum? Because I guess growing up in the country in East Texas, they would eat possum.

So the rabbit man brought a possum one day in the truck. And my dad was like, to my mother, I want you to cook at. I can tell she loved this man because she cooked the possum. Oh, I thought she was going to say, I folded my arms because I thought that story was going to end completely differently. No, she cooked the possum, and I'll never forget.

It comes out of the oven. It is dark, oily, tar-looking meat, long, tall bones that curved up. And she sets it on the dining room table with anger and love. She's like, I can't believe I did this for you. She don't want none. My brother don't want any. I don't want any.

So we just leave while my father sits at the kitchen table alone, eating possum. And I just remember like, huh, they really love each other. They really love each other. That's okay. So she said it down.

Her lips were pursed, weren't they? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Here's your posse. But, you know, I'm not trying to be judgmental because in many parts of the world and certainly in many parts of America,

people eat possum, people eat squirrel. Oh yeah. In Texas, there's that other animal that is not a rodent, but... Not Armadillo. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. In Austin, what is like, oh, it's going to bug me and I can't think of what it is, but you know what I'm talking about. Yes, I think I do.

Yeah, but people will be eating stuff. Yes, we'll come back to it. And that was a lovely story about your, an act of love on your brother. part. So can you paint a picture of the kitchen that you grew up in? What did it actually look like? Because if your mom didn't spend a lot of time in it, did she spend a lot of time, you know, creating a culinary space? Yeah. So we had like many Texas houses. It was a long ranch style home, which means single floor, kind of long and spread out. The front yard had two or three big pecan trees because my hometown, Sagan, Texas is actually

known as the pecan capital of the world. And the kitchen was big enough. My mother was my father's third wife and the house that we lived in for my first, like, nine or ten years, the previous wife had lived there before. So a lot of her old kitchen stuff was there. and I remember loving the old mid-century modern egg beater that she would whine like a crank. There were a lot of appliances in the kitchen. Yes, yes, yes, yes.

There are a lot of appliances in the kitchen that were retro, which I loved. And the thing about my mother, even if she wasn't cooking all the time, the kitchen was always full. I remember her taking my brother and died to the grocery store. H.E.B. is the premier grocery store in Texas. And we just fill it up. There was never a moment when there wasn't a lot of what you wanted to eat. She was not afraid of us having snack food or junk food. She was very adamant about us not just drinking sugar water all the time and Kool-Aid and Punch.

We had to drink water. But besides that, the kitchen was full. And so... It was a place of bounty. It was a place of bounty. It was a place of bounty. And it was a place where we were never afraid. to fully live in what we wanted in our desires.

I was grateful to grow up in a family without a bunch of food hangups. In general, my mother and my father wanted us well-fed, but they weren't doing a lot of things that I found out later that many young girls experienced or some family's experience where the rationing of the food and the types of foods you could eat was a type of control. My family never used food as control, which I admired. But we also...

And there's a whole conversation about snacks also that keeps coming up in our episodes. Whether you had access to snacks, whether you had snacks, people made friendships based on who had snacks in their cupboard. Sounds like you were a house where there was snacks in abundance. Snacks everywhere. Snacks everywhere all the time. And my brother and I, we just were like weird around food too. We both had strange cravings as children. My brother used to love butter.

And he would sneak into the fridge under cover of night. and chop on a stick of butter. And my mother and father had to cut that off. He just ate the butter? No, ma'am. He just ate the butter. And then I was really into intense tart or sharp flavors. So I used to just sneak salt.

I also had a phase where I would carry around a little bottle of apple cider vinegar like a flask and just sip out of it. Apple cider vinegar? Yes, ma'am. And so it was one day. I was sipping so much. It was like turning my lips white. And my dad was like, if you don't stop,

whatever the hell you're doing, no. I was a weird kid. That's also hard on your teeth. Well, I survived. Okay. All right. Do you still have strong cravings for really acidic things? I do.

I love tart foods. I love salty, savory foods. My favorite dessert is key lime pie. It can never be tart enough. Yeah, I like that. I love a good key lime pie. Right. You mentioned the grocery store in Texas, HEB being the big grocery store in Texas.

Wonderful chain of grocery stores. Actually, when we worked at NPR, I got to meet Charles Butt, the man who runs HEB. Wonderful, wonderful, wonderful man. Right now, why Texas is really going through some stuff with the flooding, HEB has really showed up in an important way for the community. But it made me think about, you know, we talk about our mamas and their kitchen personalities. Many of our mothers also had grocery store personalities if you went to the grocery store with them. Oh, yes.

What was your, and I remember my mom, you know, she just got, she let us have snacks and things like this. But she had a either, you only wanted to get the look, like don't ask, because if you got fusted in the grocery store, you got fust at. And everybody, you know, her, you know, her. Because you were asking too much, or you were trying to throw lucky charms in the basket or whatever. What was your mother's grocery store personality? She pretended to be tough, but you could always get her to break. She did the whole black mom lecture, don't look at nothing, don't touch nothing. I ain't buying nothing for you.

And then if you'd just be in the store, she's in a good mood, and you made her laugh, you can get whatever you want. And I was a jokester. I was a prankster. And my brother and I, we were just silly. and if we could be silly enough to make our mother laugh in the grocery store, the world was ours. The world was ours.

So she was always someone who could, like, fake the funk of, like, tough mom. But she wasn't tough. She really was just, she was a prankster. She'd do this thing when we were kids. She was a prankster, too. Oh, yeah. She was a prankster.

And just, like, quick-witted. She'd do this thing when we were kids. We'd be mad at her and we'd say something. then about what she did that pissed us off and then she'd look at us and go, your mama. Like you're talking about your, it just, like she was just,

her banter was insane. And from a very young age, I knew that the way to whatever I wanted from her was just to make her laugh. Yeah. But she was fun in grocery stores because like once we got her in a fun mood, we'd all just be bobbing around that store acting goofy.

She would do it. I remember sometimes, That's a lovely memory. Making up nonsense songs with her in the grocery store. Yeah. Were you strategic? And I asked this because I had two older sisters and when we'd go to the grocery store.

And, you know, grocery stores are set up so you go to the produce aisle first. And they were like, don't start asking for stuff now. Yeah. Yeah. You get to the processed food or the stuff that you don't, you know, that you don't think that they're going to say yes to. Did you and your brother have a strategy when you went to the grocery store?

I think for me it was always, can we get to the ice cream aisle? Can we get some ice cream? In Texas, bluebell ice cream was king. So I always wanted bluebell vanilla. But my mother loved Hagen-Dash butter pecan, which was classic. And what I didn't know until adulthood, part of why a certain kind of black person, and loves butterpacan ice cream is because we weren't allowed back in the day to have pure vanilla. So we had to have something else that wasn't quite.

My mother loved it. So I remember waiting to get to the ice cream aisle and just like wanting this one, that one, that one, that one, this one. And also, you know, bluebell vanilla. So that's what I would hold out for. Wow. So Sam mentioned something. And this is a little bit of a syllabus if you're watching or listening to this. So you should actually go look up with the history behind butterpacone ice cream.

came up in our conversation with Michelle Obama. My father loved butterpacant ice cream. Oh, yeah. It was like a staple in most black households, butterfacan ice cream. And it wasn't until I was, you know, fully an adult that I learned the history of butterpacot ice cream. It was this wild thing where black people were not allowed to eat vanilla ice cream. Which is so ridiculous. Crazy.

Crazy. So anyway, it's worth going. Finish this episode, but go and then, you know, look, look that up because it's kind of. of, you know, a crazy chapter in American history. Tell me a little bit about your parents. Your mother, you said, just from Birmingham, Alabama. Your father is actually from East Texas, ranching background. Tell me a little bit about them. Yeah. So my mother from Birmingham, one of six kids, came out to Texas for college and just stayed, met my father in her first year or two of teaching and they got married. My father was much older and my mother was his third wife,

but he had spent an entire life as a rancher in doing things kind of adjacent to that before he got his own ranch, which he ended up, I think it was like 200 acres of land at its peak, 300 head of cattle. We'd go to the farm every weekend or so, but he had folks that worked it. But he also spent a lot of time in his younger years as an extension agent. for the techs of the Department of Agriculture. So he was a master farmer and rancher that went around helping other farmers and ranchers do it better. So his craft for decades is that.

An extension agent. They are employees of the state. And their job is to help farmers and ranchers do it well and to do it better and to make more money. So that was his job. And he would tell these stories of how he was working for the state in a time when the state was still very segregated. So he was only supposed to work with black ranchers and black farmers,

and the white ones would do that over there. And there was a little integration happening, and he was part of it, but it was just a really, it was still very racist. And he would talk to my brother and I with that legacy informing his advice for our lives. I remember him saying when I was a kid, and he meant it. And I had a bunch of white friends, the school I went to this Catholic school, it was all kinds of kids.

I had white friends, Latino friends, Asian friends, all kinds of friends. But he said to me when I was maybe eight or nine, he says, Sam, you can be friends with white people, but never trust them. And the way he said it, I just felt years of pain in those words. So he was a jolly, happy man who loved a joke as well, but he had seen a lot of stuff. And I just remember that I was honored to grow up in a house with a man who had seen that. much. When I was born, my father was 70 years old. So he was born in 1914.

He lived through both world wars. He was an adult before integration. And so I just remember knowing that behind those eyes was a whole history. And I wish, in hindsight, that I would have just sat him down more and said,

tell me the stories. Please tell me the stories. But yeah, they both were fully in love. They were enterprising. Besides my mother being a principal in a middle school and my father being a rancher who had really outsourced that labor at his age, they both owned two small businesses, a daycare and a funeral home. What a weird combination. But another kitchen that I got to experience in high school, they let me work in the daycare.

and our cook, Miss Mary, also the family friend, she took a liking to me. And so for one summer, I was just Miss Mary's assistant, which means I sat in the kitchen with her while she cooked, and we gossiped, and then I got to try everything first. And she taught me some really amazing recipes. So when I think of my parents and my food lineage, Miss Mary is right there, I'll never forget, and I still make it.

She taught me how to make good cornbread. And the secret is more vegetable shortening, then you think is appropriate. The limit doesn't exist. Oh, okay. I thought you were going to say more butter, but vegetable shortening. Oh, yeah.

Gives it a little density? Yeah, it's heavy. She would add sugar to make it sweet like cake. She would mix in some of the shortening in the mix, and then when it was in the pan, she'd melt some more shortening and just drizzle it on top. It was so rich. It was so rich, but I love that.

I've rambled on it on now. Sorry, I've kind of lost the plot. That's okay. That's all right. But I love hearing about secondary kitchens because sometimes there are, you know, kitchens that you worked in, church kitchens, your neighbor's kitchen, your auntie's kitchen, your grandma's kitchen. So that's another kitchen that was really important to you. Tell us your parents' names. Yeah. My mother's name was Regina Sanders. And my father's name was Ruben Alfred Sanders, Sr., but we all just called him R.A. And did your mom go by Regina or Gina or? Regina, Regina, the queen. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And she just, I don't know, it's like, when she did cook, she could cook. And so every now and then she'd just go in the kitchen and, like, make it happen. And you just had to marvel and wonder.

And every member of my family on my mother's side, Aunt Donna, Aunt Paulette, Aunt Betty, Aunt Alta less so. Hon Alta could do fried chicken and potato salad and that's about it. And a mean banana pudding. But yeah, they all just. Banana pudding. Did you put nilla wafers on the top? Of course. That's the only way. That's the only way. Well, you know, I have had it,

I've talked about this before on the show. I have had it with Chessman on the top. If you wanted to make it look fancy, those Pepperidge Farm. Yes, yes, yes, yes, just, yes. So it looks like tiles, but no, no wafers. I love banana pudding. It's good. It's good stuff. Oh, God, now I want some banana pudding. I have a strong craving. Well, you should make that happen. You deserve.

I might have to make that happen. I love a good banana pudding. I love how cooking can be a kind of love language, a way to nurture ourselves and the people around us. From chopping fresh herbs to the scent of spices, filling up the kitchen, food carries memories, culture, and care. It connects us to our roots, to our families, and to the simple pleasure of a meal shared with loved ones. We talk about this all the time with our guests here on your mama's kitchen. So often, the things that we accepted as, just part of life, like pushing through exhaustion, ignoring our changing bodies, or putting ourselves last are the very things that start to feel out of sync as we get older. We hear from so many women

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That's why I am so into the mill food recycling. The whole idea is to make keeping food out of the trash as easy as dropping it into the trash. I just add my scraps, and I mean like almost anything. I mean anything from chicken wing bones to avocado pits to cannolope rinds, and mill runs automatically while I sleep. I can keep filling it for weeks, and it never smells. What really surprises me is the peace of mind. I used to feel guilty every time I tossed out wilted spinach or half-eaten leftovers.

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I want to ask about, you said that your family could really throw down in the kitchen. Is soul food different in Texas? I think that. Soul food in Texas always sits adjacent to and right next to really good Mexican food and really good Tex-Mex. That's why I asked, and I've been to Sagan, Texas, which is... Shut up! Yes, I have. I spoke at a college there and actually had...

Which college? Texas Lutheran. That's where my mama went. Ah! Stop it. And I had a fantastic meal at this restaurant that was like across the freeway. from the college and food was, I mean,

it was bound to, it just kept coming, it kept coming, but I just know how Latino that area is. So I was wondering if the soul food there had a different flavor and a different rhythm. Yeah, I think that for me, a lot of Mexican food was just sole food for me. Like, we loved breakfast tacos growing up. We had a few breakfast taco joints.

They'd wrap them in foil. They'd be greasy through the paper bag. and on many Saturday mornings my mother... They're like this big. They're this big. And my mother would take us on Saturday mornings to get a bunch of great breakfast tacos and these humongous lemonade.

And for me, that was no different than soul food. It had soul. It was good. It was rich. There also was this, I think barbecue merged the worlds of Mexican and Tex-Mex food and soul food.

Because so much of barbecue feels historically black. But in Texas, you had Latino grill masters and black grill masters, and the barbecue would have sides that include, like, refried beans. You know? So there was this wonderful melding. So when I look back on it,

I see, like, this Venn diagram of soul food, Tex-Mex, and barbecue, and it's all this wonderful Texas version of, like, heritage food, if that makes sense. Comfort food. You know, I grew up in the San Antonio area. And San Antonio is, I think, like, it's almost for me like the crossroads. You know, Texas is not quite South, not quite Southwestern. It's just Texas. And San Antonio is pretty much smack dab in the middle. You go east, it begins to feel like the deep south. You go west. It starts to feel like New Mexico and the Southwest. And we sat there right in the middle. So we were able to get all of

together. So for me, if I had to like put a label on it, all of it was this like wonderful mismash that blended together in amazing ways. Like I remember, you know, having barbecue with tress slash yes cake. You know what I'm saying? Just like all the things together, which is part of why I think I love L.A. L.A. is a food culture that's very much like that. The cultures just bump up against each other and you get these really amazing food creations out of it. Well, in San Antonio and in Sagan, you also have a large German presence. We do. We did calaches as a kid. A lot of calaches. We had a lot of, in hindsight, like, a lot of the sausage that was accompanying the barbecue was German influenced. And so all that was there, too.

You know your stuff. Well, actually, I love San Antonio. I, you know, there's a lot. You know, There's ever a reason to go there. I'll raise my hand. And the German potato salad, which is different than... What's that like? It's hot and it has bacon in it. No, ma'am. This is one thing that my family was just like, there's one way to do potato salad. And my aunt out would always make it. And I would tell her... Isn't there's one person in the family that makes the potato salad? And she knew when she was making it, Sam wants his with no eggs. So she'd make the potato salad. She'd hold off on the boiled eggs until I got my little portion. I don't like the texture of the, of a boiled egg. It's a weird, it's a weird bite. Do you not eat boiled eggs in life? No, no, no, no, no, no.

Love a scrambled egg. Sorry, it's triggering. Sorry, we'll never got it. We'll just move right along. No, it's okay. I should work on that and get through my boiled egg trauma. But yeah, my aunt Alta would make me a special little batch of egg-free potato salad. Oh, Sam. They loved you. They really did. They loved me. And they indulged me.

I think when I was 12, I was just like, I want to try to cook. And I remember going on the kitchen, making a mess and a fool of myself. And my family sat there and just ate it. They ate it. I ended up, you know, learning kind of intuitively the basics because I was around so many folks that could cook well. So I know my way around the kitchen. I can do the basics.

I can intuit how to do it, but I'm not a good cook. But there were moments in my youth where I just like tried. And my wonderful parents and brother just indulged me, which I appreciate it. Yeah. You are a great interviewer, one of the best in the business. And for many people, thank you. For many people, the skill of interviewing stems from the kitchen table. And learning how to keep a conversation going, perhaps learning how to question authority

without getting sent to your room, learning how to probe when you're not supposed to be, when they're talking about grown folk stuff and you're in there being nosy and trying to get answers. What part of your skills as an interview do you think came from your experience in the kitchen?

Yeah. I think it would be the ways in which the kitchen and my parents' home became a gathering spot. So my dad was Methodist. A little boring. My mother was Pentecostal, and she raised my brother and I as Pentecostals.

And it was a loud, boisterous, evangelical church. And that's an interesting combination right there. Right there. I remember we had to go to my dad's church on Father's Day and his birthday. And my brother and I were like, this is so boring. But we were usually in the Pentecostal church, and my father would go there every now and then. but our Pentecostal church was very strict, a lot of rules. You know how this goes.

But my mother would break the rules and have parties at the house where we would like watch a boxing match. And this was kind of like, are we supposed to do this? We're holy rollers, can we do it? But she'd have these large gatherings. I remember several times in my youth, a Sunday after church let out, she'd say to the folks, don't tell the pastor, but we're going to have a fight party at the house,

come by, and either my dad would barbecue outside or we'd order a bunch of food. There'd just be food there. And I remember something about all of us together in that space and the food as a great connector and equalizer. When you have people who are watching a great boxing match and eating great food and in the house and out of the house, the hierarchy is gone. The hierarchy is gone. And food can work to neutralize divisions, to help people who don't feel empowered, feel empowered to speak. And so I remember in those parties, those fight parties, running around with a plate of food, talking to everybody, feeling myself, feeling grown. And I think when I think of like the ways in which food can connect, I think about the ways in which a good gathering with good food. It allows divisions, barriers, and hierarchies to fade away.

And I admire and appreciate my parents for creating spaces where I was able to have that experience as a kid. You know, you need a certain fearlessness to be a good interview. You can't be scared of who you're talking to. You can't because you're not going to be able to talk to them. and so many of the best moments of my life that's into around food and gathering instilled a gregariousness and a certain fearfulness that I appreciate. When I'm in a kitchen with good food and good people, I'm unafraid. So do you imagine when you do an interview that you're not in a studio that maybe you're at a kitchen table and the two of you were just talking?

over coffee or over ribs or over food? Yes, yes. I want to imagine that we're at a good kitchen table or outside next to a good smoker or at a bar over happy hour. Something about the act of ingesting food, drink, whatever, while you're talking, it just greases the wheels. And now that I think about it, how can I get food and drink into my interviews? That could help. Not good for the mic. The mouth noises.

At least imagine it. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah, but I mean, we're our freest, I think, sometimes in and around a kitchen. You know this. Yes, yes. Yeah, yeah. What was your toughest kitchen memory? Because kitchens are often, you know, I always say it's where we have our loudest laughter,

but our saltiest tears. Yeah. I didn't realize how tough it was until many years later, but I had this lovely poignant moment with my mother in the kitchen after she had a massive stroke. So I've been telling you all these stories about my fun, gregarious, outgoing parents. But when I graduated high school, right after that,

both of them got really sick. I finished high school in early June of 2002. By July, my father had gone into the hospital with what would end up being in-stage ringal failure. And in that same summer, while I was helping care for him, my mother had a massive stroke on September 10th, 2002. I'll never forget, it was the day before 9-11's anniversary. And the stroke paralyzed her.

paralyzed her entire left side. She would be bedridden until she died 21 years later. I took a year off to help them. My father ended up passing away at the end of that year. I closed down the family businesses. I became my mother's primary caregiver. She was in and out of facilities.

And, you know, I began the work for years with help from family and friends of doing the caretaking. And in the midst of me being her primary caregiver, you know, there was a lot of anger and tension because her life had changed forever as had mine. And there were just hard, bad feelings around all of it. But we had one really good day where she said to me, I want you to make some smothered chicken. And I said, Miss ma'am, I've never made smothered chicken. I'm not sure I've ever seen you make smothered chicken.

and we can try, but you got one good arm, and I don't know what the hell I'm doing. And she said, I know how to do it. My mother taught me. So she tells me what to buy. I go to H-E-B, and I come back, and she's like, here's how you do it. And, you know, with a stroke patient,

they are really emotionally volatile. They can't help. But parts of their brain that used to control emotions are gone. So she'd have these epic mood swing, and anger and laughter and tears and up and down, an emotional roller coaster. But in this moment, showing me her mother's smothered chicken recipe, she was so lucid and she was so giving and she was so maternal. And I remember her telling me how to do it.

She was sitting in her wheelchair. The left arm wouldn't move, but the right arm did. And she was a conductor. and she walked me through how to make the smothered chicken and I made it and it was so good it was so good and the moment was so good because for an hour and a half

she forgot she was sick I forgot how much it hurt and this food gave us this moment above the fray I'll never forget it I haven't made smothered chicken since then But when you hit me up to do this show, I said, I have to find that recipe

because I've never forgotten it. And I called my Aunt Betty, who was my second mother. I really stepped in for me after my mother got sick. And I said, would you happen to know us mothered chicken recipe? She said, of course. She wrote it out for me in two minutes,

and that's what I shared with your team. And now what I'm, I look forward to more than anything the next time I see her is making some other chicken with her. I have seen a lot of pain in my parents. For that first 18 years of my life, there was so much joy. And then they suffered. They suffered a lot. It hurt, and I know it hurt them.

but I remember, and I'll never forget, throughout all of it, a kitchen and good food, and coming together around it, it took you out of the pain for a little bit. It took you out of the pain. And I don't know, it's like all I want, all I want in this world is to make smothered chicken again and like have my mother see it and say to her, I remember. I remembered. I'm sorry, I'm crying. That's okay.

You got me too. It's a beautiful memory. I love smothered chicken. Right. There's nothing. It's so good. And it's pretty simple. It's pretty simple, you know?

It's like chicken and gravy, basically. Yeah, yeah. Chicken and gravy. It's funny. I was going to try and make it myself before our chat today. And I said, I don't want to do it alone. I'm either going to do it with my aunt Betty or with my brother or with someone. But I think I always want to associate that recipe with connection. With connection. You got me. Yeah. I road test all the recipes.

So I will make smothered chicken. And I will make your recipe. which is slightly different than my family's recipe. I look forward to hearing about when you make smothered chicken with your brother or with Aunt Betty or with someone who means something special to you. I'm wondering why Ms. Regina had such a craving for smothered chicken. Does it reach back to Birmingham? Do you know whether it had like a special memory for her? Yeah.

I'm sure it does. my mother's side of the family, both sides. They grew up poor. My mother was one of six. Her father worked in the coal mines. Her mother was a homemaker. And so every day, my grandmother, my mother's mother, she cooked three square meals for seven people every day. And so I know that my mother's mother. she cooked three square meals for seven people every day. And so I know that my mother's young life was just like watching that all the time and helping out and learning. So I think when she came to me to make smothered chicken, she was directly channeling. the maternal energy of her mother.

In sharing that with me, so much happens to the power dynamic between a mother and a child when the child begins to have to care for the mother. I was the adult. I was taking care of the bills, getting into the doctor, changing her diaper.

I was in charge. I was driving her around. And I know, that that was not the life that she would have imagined for herself or for me. All of a sudden, I've become my mother's father in this strange, strange way. And I think if I had to put a label on it, doing that with me, making that recipe with me, let her fully be a mother again for a little bit. Because she is. She still is. She was such a good mother. But overnight, she was stripped of the things that you think you need to be a good parent.

And in that moment, when she taught me something beautiful, she was mom again. Yeah. That's so beautiful. Man, you got me. She was also making sure that you giving you a little wisdom and making sure you could stand up on your own also, you know, reminding you that, I guess they call it kitchen wisdom. There you go. And, you know, feeling comfortable around those spaces. I don't cook a lot now, but I'm never afraid of a kitchen. And if you give me enough ingredients, I can make something work. And I thank my parents for that. And I thank my mother for that. Because even though she was not

cooking all the time. She made sure that the kitchen always kind of felt like the safest and most welcoming place in the home. And I think that's a beautiful thing. That is a gift. That is definitely a gift. Sam, I have loved talking to you. I hope one day we get to cook together. We no longer live on the same coast, but we'll find each other one way or another and we'll get in the kitchen. And if we don't cook some other chicken, maybe we'll make some banana pudding. Let's do it on Althe's Recipe. Let's do it. Well, I just want to take a second to thank you. From the very first day I went down this journey of making audio and making radio,

I looked up to you, and I still do. Because you have this wonderful way of bringing grace and calm and kindness to every conversation you have. and you were just this image of like clarity and kindness that could put anyone at ease. I remember hearing your voice in those interviews and I remember saying, I don't think I've ever heard an interview as smooth as this. Just smooth. Thank you. And you're one of those voices that I always think about aspirationally.

and I just admire you so much. And I never said it when we were in the same building together, but seeing you there doing what you were doing inspired me, and I know so many other young people of color in that building. So thank you. Thank you. It was a different kind of kitchen. I'm going to return this to you because I remember not just that you were walking around without socks,

but I remember at NPR that you moved. NPR has. you know, it has a sound and it has a culture that many people have to adjust to. And one of the things I so admired about you is that you did not adjust to the culture. You were covering politics in a different way with a different voice, with a different lens. And I had so much respect for that. So I wish I had a chance to say more of that to you to give you the out of voice that you deserved in that moment. And I knew, I knew that you were going places. And I, I listen with pride to all of your shows and you stay busy. Try. And I love the way that you also create spaces for people to interact for your audience to actually interact with you. So I have, even though we only, we were like ships passing in the night, we only worked together briefly at NPR for a hot minute. Yeah.

As you say, it's been a minute. It was a minute where we worked together. But I still claimed you. And, you know, and I'm so proud of all you have done. And you're not done yet. Not done yet. Got to keep working. Keep building that empire.

This made my day. I'm so glad that you made time for us. I have loved this conversation. This was so edifying for me. Thank you for making the space and for doing what you do. I'm like, it's only 9 a.m. here now. And I'm like, oh, my God, I feel alive. Yeah, this was a wonderful emotional moment.

And it's going to make the whole day bright. I appreciate you. Thank you. Thank you, Sam. I love that conversation. And I love the idea of kitchen wisdom, that the kitchen being a place, a special place, where we can give a certain part of ourselves

in a way that's different than almost any other room in the house. Sam's story reminds me of how time spent with family is so precious. And that is why, it's one of the reasons why I am so happy that Rivian has sent me a R1S so I can do just that on long road trips with my family. My kids are adults. They have roan and flown and moved all over the world, but we still get together. And one of the ways that we get together and that we spend time together outdoors is on road trips. And even in a Rivian, we're able to still take the kitchen with us because the Rivian comes with a kitchen attachment that you can put on the tailgate.

and it's actually a stove top, the prep surface, and a two-burner induction stove, and we're able to take the kitchen on the road. And now I'm going to be thinking about how when we do that, how I can use those opportunities to impart a little bit of kitchen wisdom with my now adult children. I just want to remind you if you're listening or if you're watching that our inbox is always open because we want to hear your stories, your memories, your recipes, your epiphanies. maybe some thoughts on some of the previous episodes. So make sure to send us a voice memo or a video,

and you can send that recording to YMK at Higher Ground Productions, and there may be a chance for your voice to be heard on one of the future podcasts or your video to be used on one of the spots that we do on YouTube. If you want to try making Sam's Smothered Chicken, and if you've listened to this conversation, I certainly understand why you would want to do that. you can find that recipe at our website, your mama's kitchen.com.

And while you're there, you'll find all the recipes for all the previous episodes. Thanks for being with us. Make sure to come back soon. We're always serving up something delicious. Until then, be bountiful.