Michelle Obama: The Light Podcast - Why Dan Pashman Keeps His Pork Pan in the Garage

Episode Date: March 18, 2025

Food podcast pioneer, Dan Pashman, takes us back to the "great Pashman family fajita craze of the late '80s," when his mom became determined to crack the code on a legendary fajita marinade. Dan and Michele reminisce about the copper tin fish mold that seemed to adorn every mother’s kitchen, Dan discusses the kosher negotiations in his marriage, and, of course, the epic journey to invent his very own pasta shape: Cascatelli.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

I did a research trip across Italy for my cookbook, which is all sort of non-trip, meant to be all non-traditional pasta sauces. He did a research trip across Italy. Yeah. That's boondoggle. Excuse me. Sorry. I got to do some research, Michelle. Just saying. Hello, hello. Welcome back to your mama's kitchen. This is the place where we explore how we are shaped as adults by the kitchens that we grew up in as kids. I'm Michelle Norris, and today we are joined by someone who considers himself not a food eat, but an eater. I'm talking about Dan Pashman. That is his motto. He's the host of the James Beard Award-winning podcast, The Sporkful. Dan is also somewhat of a culinary legend because he created his own pasta shape. It's called Cascatelli. I mean, come on, not many people can claim that they have created their own pasta shape.

Time magazine named the Cascatelli as one of the. the 100 best inventions of 2021. And in 2024, Dan Pashman released a cookbook called Anything's Pustible to help folks get inspired about creating pasta dishes that go beyond adding your traditional run-of-the-mill tomato, meat sauce, or Alfredo sauce. Dan Pashman is with me today. Thanks so much for being with us. Thanks so much, Michelle. Great to talk with you. Good to be with you. On the other side, I got to be on your show, and now you get to be on mine. I know. It feels good. Full circle. So we always began, you know how this works, we began this podcast with a simple question.

And I know that you have a very interesting family and a very interesting culinary history. So tell me all about your mama's kitchen. Really, when I think about my mom's kitchen, I think about a place where there were always new things happening. So where some people have that like one or two staple dishes that are the ones that they always think of as home. To me, like my mom was a person who always wanted to try new things. things and was always trying new recipes and would go through phases of cooking. There was a pork loin phase and there was a this and that phase, but the phase that most stands out in my memory and the one that really sort of, I think, made an impact on me as an eater

and my love of food was that in around 1986, I was, would have been nine years old. I was nine or ten years old. My aunt Merrill had moved to Houston a few years earlier from Boston. and we went down to visit her. And I had never been to Texas, and Merrill met us at the airport with little mini Texas flags, waving. She was all in on Texas. And we went out to eat at this place called Papacitos, which is part of, it's a local chain.

And this was, you know, in the 80s, regional food in America was still regional. And so I had never seen. So you couldn't get really good. That's right. I had never seen homemade flour. I don't know if I saw any flour tortillas. I don't know. We didn't have, I don't know that we had flour tortillas in the grocery store in 1986 in New Jersey. At Papacitos, they were making flour tortillas on the spot. They had a machine rolling them out. Oh, I know you're talking about it. It kind of flips over like a conveyor belt. Yes, yes, yes. And we had fajitas. And I had never had fajitas. And I had never had real flour

tortillas. And our whole family was just blown away by this entire experience. It was so new to us. And we went home and that started what I call the great Pashman family fajita craze of the late 80s, well into the 90s. I think there was always a flank steak. It felt like there was always a flank steak. Did you get the flat skillet so it would come to the table sizzling? Yeah, it was a whole night.

Right. It comes to the table sizzling. The whole restaurant starts turning and looking. It makes quite a commotion when a platter of fajita. comes out of the kitchen. And so you had the steam. And also just, when you're nine or ten years old, also the idea that, like, you get to assemble your own fajita.

So that's also exciting as a kid that you can, like, mix and match. And, like, it started, it just sort of, it was really a spark for a lot of things that I think informed kind of my passion for food today, which is partly, like, playing with your food. And that kind of, like, being able to build your own food, play with your food. I think it's something that's still part of my personal. personality, my approach to today. And my mom in particular was very taken with the fajitas and got really into cooking fajitas back in New Jersey. So when your mom brought this back into her own kitchen, did she have everything needed to make fajitas or did she, you know, decide to like trick out

her kitchen so she could create papacitos in her own house? She wasn't quite that hardcore. My mom was not a big baker, as I'm not either, but like a big, we were big grillers and marinators. So she got very into the flank steak and the marinated. She, she, she, She did research. Back then, pre-internet, she was looking up in magazine articles and doing research to try to figure out what is the Papacito's fajita marinade? How did they marinate the steak? Pineapple juice. They use a combination of pineapple juice and soy sauce.

They're probably not the only ones to do it, but there's a lot of different kind of fajita marinate. They always involve something sweet and soy sauce and lime juice. Those are kind of the most basic. Yeah. I love that your mom came back. pre-internet, pre-Google, and figured out how to do this. But it sounds like that speaks to her personality, that she was a little bit of a culinary detective.

For sure, yes. And a culinary detective, she was the kind of person who, like, if we were going to be traveling somewhere, again, pre-internet, she would have magazine clippings of places she wanted to eat at. You know, nowadays, when I'm going somewhere, I'm putting stars in my Google Maps of where I want to go. But she was that way.

but also just in terms of her cooking and sort of what the kitchen was like is that is that she liked to experiment and she liked to try new things. And I think that's something I've definitely inherited. You said that your family in many interviews, you have said that your family, in fact, I've heard you say this on the air, is food obsessed? Yeah. What does that mean? Because that can mean lots of different things. Yeah. So in your family, what did that mean?

It means that food was just a very high priority. Like, we were going somewhere. where it was often like we're planning the meals and then we're filling the time in between the meals. That was a vacation. My family is Jewish. And so I think every Jewish person, if you trace their ancestry back long enough, had a period when they couldn't take food for granted. I mean, that's true for obviously people in a lot of other groups also, but certainly in ours. So it's possible there's some sort of a connection there.

I think Jewish people are known for being very into food. Again, we're not the only ones, but it is like sort of a big part of Jewish culture. is looking forward to eating, grandparents telling you that you should be eating more, enjoying the food, talking about the food. We actually, I remember a couple of Jewish holidays back in the night, or probably late 80s or early 90s when we first got like one of those video, like a camcorder, you know, making home movies when the VHS cass cass cass cass came out. And I, this is, this is probably the earliest memory of working as a food journalist, Michelle,

is that I, after the meal, I went around interviewing everybody and the family of what they ate. And it was always a running joke that my grandfather, my dad's father, who he loved to eat and he would enjoy his food very much. And then right at the end of the meal, he would start complaining about how he ate too much. And he would always say, I was just such a pig. And so I just asked every person in the family to compare themselves to a different barnyard animal. Well, we called him Judgey because he used to be a judge. My grandfather.

So we said, well, Judgey says he's a pig. What are you? What are you? So one person said, I'm a cow. I'm a horse, you know. So, but so the idea of talking about what you just ate and even me interviewing everybody and making it a point of discussion was like an early food thing for me. What were Friday dinners like?

Oh, so Friday night we did a thing in our family called cocktail party. and we would and this was special because we would my mom would make a bunch of mini hot dogs and the little like the ones like pigs and blankets but without the blanket oh those are so good yes and she would make my brother and i would get Shirley temples and my parents would each get a cocktail and we would eat in the living room instead of the kitchen table with a TV tray it was more like hors d'oeuvres it was like it was literally like cocktail hour like my parents had cocktails we had Shirley temples and we would have like finger foods I don't remember if we ever actually sat down to a meal afterwards or if it was just finger foods, but it was like

cocktail party. That's what it was called. And during COVID, I introduced that to my family. And we started, because we weren't leaving the house. And we were really during lockdown. I was like, everyone put on some nice clothes. We're having a cocktail party. And I made many hot dogs. And then passed around in the trays with orders and everything like that. Oh, that's so sweet. Yeah. You described your mom and what she made, but you didn't describe the space. What did your kitchen look like. For a family that was food obsessed, did you have a kitchen that was really tricked out for the time? Was it more traditional? Was your mom always buying that latest appliance? Did you have, you know, a tortilla heater or something like that before everybody else? Like me, you know, I'm not a big kitchen gear, a kitchen gadget person and neither was my mom. Like I would say it was a nice kitchen, but I would not describe it as especially tricked out. She still, to this day, has the same cuisine art blender that we made cookies with. 40 years ago, or whatever, various things. So she's not like a run out and buy the latest hot new gadget person.

It was an open kitchen. So there was the counters. There was the stove. And then there was a hood over the stove. And then you could see through over the stove to the kitchen table. And that's where we ate our meals. And so it was kind of, you know, an open kitchen before that was as much of a thing. So you could see right through the dining room to the kitchen.

So, and then the far wall from the kitchen on the other side of the, of the kitchen table. My mom had decorated that whole wall with a bunch of like wooden baskets, hanging baskets on the walls, which it feels like a very sort of like 80s decor thing. And I remember also that there was a

copper tin fish mold. It was like... My mom made that too. Really? Yes. Was it crescent shaped? Yes.

I think Julia Child had that on the wall in her kitchen. Okay, so I think that everyone else had to have it. Every woman in America ran out to go find it, probably at Sears. But yes, my mom had that too. I love that. Was it also hanging in by the kitchen table? Yes, yes.

And my mom went full on Julia Child. We, you know, working class house, Minnesota. She went to a place probably Menards, you know, and, you know, some Home Depot type place and found a styrofoam version of wooden beams. to put on the ceiling to make it look like a French country ceiling. That's so funny. Were they, like, painted browns?

They looked like wood. They were styrofoam, but they looked like wood on the outside. But, you know, they looked like they were like really heavy pieces of wood. But it was actually just a piece of styrofoam that I think we just, you know, gorilla glue or something like, put it up right out of the ceiling. But yes, she had that same, that fish mold was it. Did they ever, did your mom ever make a mold in it? It was just for decoration.

I don't think so. Did yours? I mean, we had plenty of jello growing up. To be sure, but we didn't touch that mold. That was part of the decor. Purely decorative. Totally decorative. Yeah. That's so funny.

And in fact, there was a TV show a couple years ago. I'm going to have to rack my brain and try to remember. It was set in the 80s or 90s, and they had the fish mold on the wall there too. And I was like, wow, it's so, wow, it's so, it's perfectly accurate at the time. I took a screen, I'd like, paused the TV and set a picture to my mom. Yeah. That was a thing back then. Yeah.

So what else happened in your kitchen besides food that you think has shaped you in some way today? Wednesday night and Sunday night were the nights that most, and probably Friday night. Wednesday, Friday, Sunday were like family dinner nights. And we would, you know, we didn't have family dinner every night, but we certainly did a lot of times. It was a time to talk about your day. You know, my dad was at the office all day. So, you know, it's interesting. I'm around with my kids so much more.

and in the kitchen more. But he would get home at 6.30 or so. We would all sit down to eat. So it was time to talk about your day. Certainly, I'm sure there were time that there were arguments. My brother and I were bickering with each other, probably teasing each other, getting on each other's nerves at times. We had a dog named Zeke, who was extremely persistent about wanting his squeaky toy thrown to him.

I thought you were going to say food scraps, but no. No, no, we were very strict about food scraps because my uncle's dog growing up. They always fed him off the table, and then that dog would sit underneath the table when you went to their house and cry and cry and cry. When we got a dog, we're like, we're not going to let that happen to our dog. We're not feeding this dog off the table. But instead, the dog would bring this plush, this wet, slimy, chewed up. You can tell him a dog person. I know, your face right now, Michelle is telling me that this probably didn't happen in your house growing up.

But not many people's houses, but Zeke would squeak the toy. He would get the squeaker in his mouth and squeak, squeak, squeak, squeak, squeak. It would be so annoying. And then he would put it down on the dining room table, on the kitchen table right next to my place because I was always the sucker would throw it to him. And then he would sit down and if I didn't throw it fast enough, he would start barking at me to throw it. So that was always it was. And mom put up with this.

Yes. My parents loved that dog. So it was our first dog. And Zeke needed a lot of extra. Just the fact that he was running into the living room and back because I threw the toy was making their lives easier, I think. What kind of dog was this? Zeke was a standard poodle. Okay.

A big one. He's like 60 pounds. High energy. Yes, very high energy. Phrenetic. But I always have to say not with one of those quirky haircuts, just sort of like straight up. Looked like any one of the black doodles that you would see today. But yes.

So it was always a little bit cacophonous with the dog barking and squeaking and everybody talking and all that. It was also, you know, like, you know, again, it's funny, before, like, now we have cell phones. I talk to my wife like three times a day. So by the time we get to dinner, I already know everything that's happened in her day, pretty much. But back then, you know, like my parents didn't talk, I mean, all the time every day. And so, like, my dad would also be telling my mom about his day at work. My mom would be telling him about her day. And so it was also kind of like a window into grown-up world because my dad would be talking about some problem at the office that this person, you know,

There was an issue with someone who he worked with or a case he was working on or whatever it was. And so, like, that was kind of a time when you would get an insight into what the adult world was like and kind of office problems and work issues and all that stuff. What did your father do? He was a lawyer. So dad's a lawyer and mom's a therapist. These are people who ask questions for a living. Did they often interrogate you and your brother? Somewhat.

Yes. I mean, I don't remember a ton of, I mean, you know, It wasn't that hard to get me talking. My parents... Oh, surprise. Right. Yeah. I don't think they had to ask, probably...

Well, I mean, I don't know. On the other hand, I feel like my mom always says it, like, boys are very tight-lipped. We'd come home from school. My mom would ask how my day at school was, and I would always just want to tell her how many touchdown passes they threw a recess. She was like, but did you have any classes? Did you take any tests or learn anything? So we would definitely would talk.

But, you know, and yes, talk about our days for sure. But I feel like I have probably more memories of kind of like learning about what the adult world was like. So our kitchens are often also where we learn how to process difficult things. You know, you lose a family member, you gather in the kitchen. Someone loses a job, you gather in the kitchen. Someone down the street has something happened to them. You gather in the kitchen to send a pan of chicken or a plate of cookies. what did you learn about grace and generosity and maybe even getting over grief in your family kitchen?

Yeah, I mean, I certainly, I remember, I mean, when my grandmother died, my dad's father died, we sat Shiva there. That's the Jewish sort of mourning ritual that happens after the funeral. And so, you know, we had family and friends coming, and I remember that. And that happening in the kitchen because, you know, everybody ends up in the kitchen, even at a Shiva. especially sort of like when the sort of neighbors and guests leave and it's sort of just the family hanging out and that's when you're kind of like sitting around and reminiscing about the person who passed away

and I just remember sort of feeling a little bit awkward like what do I say? Like what's the right thing to say? What's the right thing to do? I don't really know. You know, you tell them that you're sorry. You express condolences. You know, you ask them there's anything that you can do to help.

You know, but often just sort of being there for the person and showing that you care. is just showing up is a big part of of how you can show grace. Yeah, the importance of being there. It counts for something. And the people that you're there for will never, ever, ever, ever forget it. I mean, just like the child that looks up, they do something on the basketball court or the volleyball court and they look up and see, is mom or dad there?

The people who are going through a hard time will also remember all the people that were there in the room for them. that's the way life works. For sure. And I don't know if you find this, Michelle, but I feel like when other people show up for me, in those types of situations, I'm always like so surprised.

I'm always like, wow, like you went to this effort. You know, it's really not a big deal. And I would have known that you care, even if you hadn't shown up. Like, you didn't have to do this. And, but then when I show up for somebody else, and they have a similar reaction, I'm always like,

but of course I'm going to be here. You know, like, you know, and so it's funny. Yeah. You know, I'm not, like, I don't know what, what's going on in that dynamic. That like, when people are showing up for us, we're like, no, no, you didn't have to do that. But then when you show up for other people, you're like, but of course. Yeah. Yeah, I lost my mom this year.

And I looked out while eulogizing her. Oh, it's hard to talk about this. But I saw these faces in the audience. And I thought, you got on a plane. You know, you didn't even tell me you were going to do this. And there were all these people there that just showed up. And I'll never forget it. Yeah.

That's the way life works. You grew up in a Jewish household that was not kosher. Correct. And then you met and fell in love with a woman, Janie. Yes. Who keeps a kosher. Oh. Yes.

I imagine there was some negotiation. Yes, yes. Yes, Janie grew up in a kosher home But when she was living solo She wasn't as strictly kosher as she grew up with But yes And for folks who are familiar I mean you probably know that kosher means like no pork

No shellfish Well actually why don't you explain that Because a lot of people hear this And don't really understand what keeping kosher really means And I should say like there's different sort of What I would call levels depending on how religious you are And what one person says One person may say they're kosher

And then a super super observant person might say Well that's not kosher I'll show you, whatever. So, but at its base level, Jewish people who keep kosher don't eat pork and don't eat shellfish. But also, don't mix meat and dairy. Fish and dairy is okay, but not, but steak, chicken, anything like that, doesn't get mixed with dairy. That means no butter, no milk, no cream, no cheese.

So no cheeseburgers. So do you keep separate dishes? Yes, and that's right. And separate cupboards? Right. And it all traces back. to a line in the Bible about how you shouldn't boil a kid and it's mother's milk. But so that's kind of the derivation.

But over the years, the tradition as it sort of got litigated among the Jewish scholars, it became, you need separate pots and pans and plates and utensils so that you can't even use the same plate for meat that you would use for dairy. It's funny, though, because as much as I grew up in a non-coture household and we ate pork and we ate shellfish, we never ate... You mentioned hot dogs quite a bit. We ate Hebrew National Hot Dogs. There are beef hot dogs.

Although sometimes my mom would go to the pork store and get pork hot dogs because those were made with no nitrates. She was way ahead of the whole like anti-preservatives, whatever. So we did eat pork hot dogs sometimes. But we didn't have bacon. And she also never put the meat and the cheese on the same shelf in the refrigerator, which I feel like is a vestigial, ancestral kosher thing. Because like you wouldn't, like a person who keeps kosher wouldn't put the meat and cheese right on top of each other in the fridge either.

And so it's funny that those little kind of things you're like, well, of course we're not going to put the meat and the cheese next to each other in the fridge. Like those are kept separately, even if we don't keep kosher. So, but when I met Janie, she had never eaten a cheeseburger, which to me, as someone who loves cheeseburgers, was like a little hard for me to wrap my head around. I was like, really, but never like never a bite, you know, like she had many hamburgers. She loved hamburgers, but no cheeseburger. And so when we, you know, got married and started living together, you know, it was a bit of a difficult thing to navigate because I, you know, that Jewish observance is very important to her.

It's a big part of her identity. And I wanted to be respectful of that. But I also like, it wasn't as important, you know, that part of observance wasn't as important to me and food was very important to me. And so we sort of settled on a compromise, which, you know, there were moments that it was, you know, we've talked about this on the Sporkful podcast. We did an episode where we interviewed Janie's mom. It was an episode called Till Pork Do Us Part. But, you know, it was a really nice conversation we had with Janie's mom because she was sort of like, you know, look, of course, it would be her preference that we kept more kosher than we do. But she respects our decision.

and overall is still, you know, happy that we observe most of the most important Jewish traditions and are raising our kids Jewish and carrying on these traditions. And that was what was the most important. So what's the compromise look and feel like? Okay. So the compromise, the way it works, what we roughly agreed on is that I don't cook pork or shellfish in our house. Do you barbecue outside? I still wouldn't cook pork or shellfish on the grill.

Okay. I did when I was doing testing recipes for my cookbook because I knew I wanted to have pork and shellfish recipes in my cookbook. I bought a new pan. And I was like, this is my pork and shellfish pan. It's just for testing recipes for the cookbook. Janie makes an exception for kosher rules when it comes to chicken parm. Ah. Because she just loves it too much.

She's very virtuous, Michelle. You've got to let her have her little dispensation. I still wouldn't cook chicken parham But like we'll get that in a restaurant But then the other sort of part of the rule is And like if there's a little bit of dairy mixed into a sauce In a way that she's not really going to see it or know about it She doesn't she's not going to like start reading

Just don't tell me is it kind of Right right don't ask don't tell But then outside of the house I can order whatever I want And eat whatever I want And if we're ordering out I might order pork or shellfish and it's going to come in, like, in to-go containers, and I'll eat it out of paper plates. Okay.

So it's not touching our dishware, and I'm not cooking it in the house. And that really, I think, has worked out pretty well. You know, I think it's, you know, there were occasional moments that I think we, you know, it veered a little more in one direction or the other, and one of us got a little bit unhappy with it. But I think that, like, I think it has been a pretty good compromise. And you have two daughters. Right. They keep kosher also.

They pretty much eat the same way that I do, which is like we're not going to cook pork and shellfish in the house. We're not going to blatantly mix meat and cheese outside of cheeseburgers, but outside of the house, whatever. And if I'm testing a recipe for kimchi carbunara and we have to have some cured pork jowl, aka Guanchale. Yeah, I was going to say your cookbook does have some. Let me tell you. My older one, Becky and I, we really love that kimchi carbunara and we will eat some pork. And look, Michelle, sometimes I have to retest the recipe to make sure it's still accurate. So even though the book came out a year ago, I still have to, you know, I'm always tweaking.

So sometimes I have to go in the garage and pull out my pork pan. Your daughters cook alongside you. You have two sous chefs right there in your house. Did they do that because they want to spend time with dad because they really like cooking? Or did you cultivate cooks? You knew from the beginning as someone who loves food that you wanted them right there by your side. And I think it's, I think it's sort of all of the above. I mean, they're not always in the mood to cook with me, to be honest, especially as they enter their teenage years.

They like baking more. I think kids, they like mixing. They don't love chopping. Chopping, I think they just find more tedious. Whereas measuring things and then pouring it into a bowl is kind of easier and more fun. Kind of like a sign experiment. Yeah, yeah. I have sort of made the decision not to pressure them to cook with me.

So I will, if I'm cooking and they're around, I'll say, hey, do you want to come cook with me? And sometimes they say yes. And sometimes they say no. I didn't want to always be pressuring them to do it, even though I like doing it with them, because they didn't want it to become a thing that they resented or dreaded or like, oh, my God, my dad always dragged me into the kitchen. Once in a while, I really need some help. And I will be like, listen, I need some help in the kitchen.

And usually when I do that, they're okay with it, especially if it's something that they like doing. Well, that's a nice way because it makes them feel needed also. I'm not asking you to do a chore. I really need your help. Right. Here's another example of like breaking kosher rules and getting my kids to help in the kitchen. So we were, there's this themed dinner in my town, which it's like a fundraiser and whatever. Long story short, I was put in charge of cooking sort of Hawaiian themed food for this group dinner because that was going to be the theme.

And so I said, I'm going to make spam a sou. This is like a Hawaiian South Pacific kind of like Spam is big in South Pacific Huge, huge And so this is kind of like an Asian spam Fusion dish where you take spam You cook it usually like in soy sauce and sugar

And then you wrap it in sushi rice And with like a nori like a seaweed roll wrap And so I was making this and I got the- Regular Spam because you know spam now comes in 65 different flavors Yeah I use regular old roll. I might have used low low-euvre. salt spam because I was like, you know, between the soy sauce and the salt. Because now they have terriaki spam.

Yeah, no, no. I was keeping it pretty old school. But so that, that, because that was like so good, I was like, this is going to be great for this party. And Janie was like, fine, just make it in the pork pan. Yeah. So I went to the garage to bring out the old pork pan. But you can't even keep it in the house.

It's in the garage? No, I keep it in the garage. It gets treated like a red-headed stepchild pan. It's not allowed a good spot. I want Janie to know there's a hierarchy in the pans and that the pan that she doesn't really like does not get pride of place. But also because we were going to be eating this at someone else's house. It got a pass. But I also felt like rolling sushi is something I've done in the house before.

I've done also like kimbab, the Korean rolls. and that's a really fun thing to do with kids because it's very hands-on. It doesn't involve heat. And it takes them a little while to get the hang of it. But like when you've got to roll a lot of them, it's time-consuming. And so I cook the rice, I cook the spam, and I was like, you two get rolling.

And that they got really into and they had a lot of fun. You got to roll really tight. You have to... Right, right. So I sometimes I have to come in and nitpick and tighten a little bit here and there and touch up their work. But then when the kids tried them, they really, they loved them.

Both kids loved these things. And so that incentivizes them to help cook. It's a really good one because, you know, sometimes you're doing a lot of work and the thing you're cooking isn't going to be ready for a while. But when you're rolling, Spam, a Subi, or any kind of sushi or kimbab or anything, you get a finished product like every three minutes.

And so you kind of do some work and then you slice off one piece for yourself and then do some work and slice off one piece for yourself. So the kids are getting constant rewards for their effort. You sound like Lucy and Ethel in the chocolate episode where they're like working and just, popping that chocolate in their mouth. Yeah, yeah. That has to be managed. Otherwise, you end up with no food at the end. It's like, what are we bringing to the neighbor's house?

We got nothing. We got about six of them left. That's it. Yeah. So I have to ask you about Cascatelli. I have so many questions. How did you come up with the name? How did you come up with the idea of creating your own pasta shape? I've read a little bit about this, but I want you to tell us the origin story. And in case you haven't used Cascatelli, I have, was introduced to it by a shared friend of ours, James Bohan is the one who told me all about it and said, it's perfect because the way it cups, it sort of holds a lot of sauce. I have these three metrics that I use to judge all pasta shapes. So there's fork ability, how easy is it to get it on your fork and keep it there.

Sauce ability, how readily to sauce it here, and tooth sink ability, which is how satisfying is it to sink your teeth into it. So these two ruffles, they're in charge of the sauce ability. But they also contribute a lot to the tooth sink ability because they get a lot of different textures and the texture of the ruffles, the texture that has chewier parts, it has softer parts. I want to appreciate it that have a lot of textural dynamism. So after, you know, burning through farfale and tortellini and, you know, all the other various kinds of pasta that you could experience in life, why did you decide that the world

needs a pasta that was created by you? So partly I just wanted to tell a big epic story on the Sporkful podcast, and I thought trying to invent a new food. like probably things would go wrong and it would make for a great story and it would be fun. And even if it crashes and burns and fails, that could still be a good story. In terms of why I picked pasta, I had a few criteria. I wanted it to be a food. I thought, okay, I'm going to invent a food.

I wanted it to be a food that was shelf stable and inexpensive so that it could be something that could easily be shipped to sportful listeners all over the country. I didn't just want this to be a food that would be like in one boutiquey store in Brooklyn. I wanted everyone to be able to participate. So pasta check those boxes. But then also, I just, as I reflected on it, I just have a lot of opinions about pasta shapes. And I think a lot of them, I mentioned forkability, sauceability, and tooth sinkability. I think a lot of pasta shapes are pretty good at one or two of those. Very few nail all three.

You know, like spaghetti, which is the best selling most widely used shape in America, barely gets one. I mean, like, try to get a good bite of spaghetti on your fork. That probably does pretty well. I mean, it's forkable enough, but it doesn't hold much sauce. And it can spring off your fork. I mean, I usually eat farfali with a spoon. Really? We're talking about bow-tie pasta.

Yes, farfale, which actually means butterflies in Italian, but we call it bow-ties in the U.S. Yeah, so, so look, I love all pasta. If you invite me over for dinner, I'll eat whatever pasta you put in front of me. So, but that being said, I think that the idea, I also just feel like as much as I love Italian food culture and the history and the tradition and the romanticism around it

it's also kind of a fun food culture to sort of tweak because they're so they're such purists and so the idea of... So what did you hear from from said Italians about this new pasta that you created

that almost looks like a little piece of jewelry and almost looks like you could shalack it and turn it into something that you would wear like a brooch? Mostly, I mean, a lot of skepticism mostly. I mean, as soon as they hear that an American has invented a new pasta shape, you know, they're basically tuning you out once they get that information.

But, you know, that said, I think that the, as much as like, yes, Italians have had that reaction and yes, they're the stereotype of Italians as being very stuck in their ways on the food front has some validity to it. I also have learned in recent years, to my surprise, that it's. it's a little bit unfair. And in fact, you know, like I did a research trip across Italy for my cookbook, which is all sort of non-trip, meant to be all non-traditional pasta sauces. He did a research trip across Italy.

Yeah. That's boondoggle. Excuse me. Sorry. I got to do some research, Michelle. Just saying. But when you did your research trip across Italy, what did you live? Well, so I talked with.

with a cookbook writer, a cookbook author and food writer in Italy named Katie Parla, who was explaining to me that, for instance, Carbonara, I would have guessed that Julius Caesar ate Carbonara and that it's never changed in millennia. Totally wrong. Carbonara was invented in the 1940s. And only probably with contributions of American soldiers who were there during World War II and they're like bacon and eggs rations getting in. Carbonara, people will know now raw beaten eggs, Guantale, which

as cured pork chowel, pecorino romano cheese, and black pepper. And that is those four ingredients. You ask anyone in Italy today, they'll tell you that's what Carbonara is. But it was only invented in the 40s. For decades afterwards, the ingredients varied widely, depending on the cook and the region. It had onions. It had garlic. It had tomatoes. There was a recipe for it published in Harper's Bazaar in the 1950s that had chopped clams. Only in the past 20 or 30 years has Italian food culture coalesced around the quote-unquote one true carbonara recipe. And so what I took from that, and there's other pasta dishes that have been invented in Italy just in the past few decades. What's the bread? Chabata. Chabata was invented in the 1990s to compete with French baguettes.

So there's a lot of romanticism, but also a lot of mythology around Italian food. And it's just not as old and static as people think. And to me, well, I understand that sort of like breaks apart some of our romanticism. To me, it's kind of more interesting to think of Italian food, like all culture everywhere, as something that is always evolving and changing. And so I hope Cascatelli is my one small little contribution to that. So when you think about Cabernara, do you think about the film Heartburn? And there was, I think, a whole generation of people who were trying to figure out how to make

Carvran after watching Merrill Street, you know, try to play Nor Ephron. Right. For sure. It's all about the timing. Yeah. I mean, it's such a simple dish and so much fun. And also like it feels, it's one of those dishes that's so easy, but also not quite as easy as you think. But when you get it right, it feels so decadent and special.

Yeah. And you get that texture right, it's just. Yeah. And then that postability is what, or what is it, the stickiness of the sauce. Sausibility. Sauceability, yes. Sauceability. That is a dish that's all.

about sauceability. Yes, 100%. And in my cookbook, one of the Carbonara recipes that I put in, which is a sort of Cajun style and Dewey sausage and shrimp carbonara that I collaborate with Chef Darnell Reed in Chicago on, and he has a place called Luella's Southern Kitchen that I adore. And that was the first restaurant in America to put Casketale on the menu. So Darnell and I have a special bond. Shout out to Darnell. Yes. And in his casket, in his Carbinar, he adds an extra egg yolk. Oh. Just a yolk.

Ooh, and that gives it even more sheen. Exactly. And just a little more thickness and richness. And that's a phenomenal move. Okay. That one I'm going to have, because I have not done that one in your cookbook, and I'm definitely going to have to try that.

Now, your cookbook, as we said in the intro, is trying to encourage people to be more creative to move beyond the red sauce or the Elfrido or the marinerer or the... You love Punta Nesca. I can see you like that you like olives and things that have a little bit of Umani in it. What advice do you have for people to get more creative with their pasta? Don't view pasta specifically as this very traditional Italian thing.

View it more as a delicious, comforting, carbly base. And where you might use rice, you could perhaps in some situations instead use pasta, use pasta. Where you might use bread, you might instead be able to use pasta. pasta. There are ground meat dishes. Almost every food culture has a ground meat dish of some kind. We all know bolognese sauce, a ground meat dish that we used to pasta, but like almost any saucy ground meat dish that you love could be put on top of pasta. I have leftover doll in my fridge and leftover pasta. One day I'm like, I'm going to put the doll on the pasta. It's delicious.

So I just think that view pasta less as sort of a finished dish or ingredient and more as a blank canvas. So is Cascatelli here to stay or was it sort of an artisanal experiment? So far it's here to stay. I mean, it came out in March 2021. And so, look, it's still a total trip to me to walk into a store and see it. I mean, I still buy it sometimes, even though I don't have to. But I'm like just excited. I just get excited to see it.

So that's super fun. Well, that's, you know, one of the things that's the imprint that you've left on the world, Dan, along with making us laugh every week and educating us about food is that you've introduced a pasta shape. Well, it's so funny you say that because when Cascoe Telly first came out, if folks didn't pick up on it. Like, it did kind of go viral. Like, it was, there was tons of media coverage. It was like I was on CBS this morning. They were talking about Good Morning America, NPR, New York Times, everywhere you can imagine. and every morning for those first couple weeks I would wake up in the morning thinking like I think

I think it's going to start to like quiet down and then by dinner time I'd be hyperventilating again one day two or three weeks after it went on sale I go down the street to get something the store I come home I pull into the driveway my wife comes running out of the house and I'm like what what's wrong and she goes Sarah Jessica Parker put it on her Instagram and I'm like what You know, and I remember that, I will always remember that night, the kids have gone to bed, we're sitting on the couch, and I turned to her I said, this is going to be my obituary. You know, like this, like, I'm never going to do something that's going to get a bigger reaction than this, you know. Well, it's, you're a young man. I mean, there's still time. I guess, but I, like, it is, it is a funny feeling to be in your mid-40s and think, like, I might not ever top this.

On the other hand, it was so cool. And of all the things that you could be, it could be written about you in your obituary, pasta shape inventors pretty good. Yeah, pasta shape inventors is, is, that's a good one. Is there any validating moment, like, did you get a call from Lydia or, you know, someone who called you and said,

Vamene, well done. I mean, probably the, the, I mean, my wife was very skeptical. Janie was very skeptical of the whole mission. So that, you know, and, and, And we have all that on tape in the podcast series we did about the making of the shape. But her coming around was very fun and exciting. But there's this guy, Chris Maldari, who I went to early on in my quest. He is at the time, he now has sold off his business.

But in order to get a pasta shape made, I needed to get a dye made. The dye is like the mold. And at the time, Chris was one of two pasta dye makers still working in America. And I went to his house on Staten Island and told him, of my plan to invent a new shape of pasta. And Chris, who is sort of a grizzled Italian-American pasta diemaker, who's sort of seen it all, was like, look, you seem like a nice guy. I feel bad, but I don't think you're going to get anywhere with this idea.

And he was very hard on me. He's like, I'm just, you know, I've got to be honest with you. You know, I. Was it because it was new or because it was so complicated with the frills and the flourishes and the valleys and the values? When I first went to him, I only had a rough idea, and he was sort of shooting it all down, like, this isn't going to be different enough to stand out. Then when I had a rough idea, he took one look at it and said, giving you some profanity, this looks like a cluster bleep. And we all know what that means.

Right, right. And so I, you know, but at the end, when it came out, he called me up and he said, I got to tell you, it's really good. And to win Chris over, that was a big moment. You didn't explain how you came up with the name, Cascatelli. Did you have a friend named Cascatelli in junior high or something like that? So Cascitelli is Italian for Waterfalls. And one of the things that I was very passionate about was that I did not want this to be a gimmick. The whole project, I could have like 3D printed one single piece of pasta that would look cool on Instagram.

But I wanted it to be legitimately delicious and mass produced so that it was. people everywhere could eat it. And I also did not want it to give it a gimmicky name. Like people were like, oh, call it the Paschmini or the Sporkini because my podcast is the sporkful. And I said, no, I want to give it a name that sounds like a real pasta shape. And many pasta shape names, my favorite ones, are the Italian word for the thing that it looks like. So Fetuccine means ribbons. Pente means pens like quill pens because it's pointy at the end. Or a kieti has little ears, radiatorre as radiators, et cetera. And so, I waited till the very end until the shape was done.

And I just showed it to people. And I was like, what does this look like to you? And then I would Google the Italian word for that thing. But then I also needed it to be an Italian word that most Americans could read and pronounce and remember. So like one person said, oh, it looks like a tire tread. The ruffles look like a tire tread. The Italian word for that is batistrata. But that just doesn't sound like a pasta shape.

Too close to botulism or something. You look at it from the side. Someone said it looks like a bass clef. but that word for that is Kiave di Basso and it's very three words, it's long. People say it looks like a seahorse, but the Italian for that is like horse of the sea, which again, it's like

multiple words, it's long. People thought it looks like a milipede or a centipede. I was very close to naming it milipede, which means millipede. But my wife, Janie, was like, don't name your pasta after a bug. And then my producer Emma turned it vertically and the ruffles, when held vertically,

looked like flowing water. And she said, what about waterfall? And Cascatelli sounds great. People can remember it. It sounds like a real pasta-shaped name. And so that's how we came up with it. Four syllables that march across the tongue. It works. That's right. I have loved talking to you. This has been so, so, so much fun. My pleasure. Thank you. Thank you. And yeah, it's nice to chat. Nice to reminisce about the family kitchen. And nice to get to know you because I have a piece of your family in my house. You're my Mom and dad had a big billiard table that they were looking to get rid of. And our shared friend, James, said, you know, you have a big loud family.

I bet you would love to have a billiard billiard table. And it's put to good use. Good. I love that. I have a lot of fun games. I've now got to know the family attached to this massive, you know, I didn't realize how big a billiard table is and how heavy it is and how complicated it is to move into the house. I had to actually come and come and felt it and level it. And it's a whole thing. But it is a source of joy in our house.

And I love knowing a little bit more about the family that first owned it and loved it. Well, I appreciate it. I'm so happy to hear that. I hope you have many more good years of views out of it. That's Dan Pashman. He is the host of a wonderful podcast called The Sporkful. His excitement and curiosity around food is contagious, as contagious as that great big laugh of his. I loved hearing the backstory about the creation of cascatelli,

and I loved hearing about his mother's detective skills in figuring out how to make that wonderful fajita marinade. And if you want to make that fajita marinade in your kitchen, make sure to go to our website, your mama's kitchen.com, where we will have that recipe, and while you're there, spend a little bit of time with us because we have all the recipes from all the previous episodes there also. And I also want to remind you that our inbox is always open

for you to record yourself and share stories about your mama's kitchen, some memories from the kitchen growing up, maybe some of those childhood recipes, maybe some thoughts on some of the things you've heard on this podcast or on previous podcast. You can send us a voice memo or a video recording. Just make sure to send that to YMK at highergroundproductions.com for a chance for your voice to be heard in a future episode or for your video to be seen on Instagram or maybe used at our website. That's it for today. I have loved having you with us. I hope you come back because we are always, always, always, always serving up something special. Until then, be bountiful.