Might Delete Later - Ep 15: Charlie Craggs

Episode Date: September 24, 2020

Gina and Stevie chat to founder of Nail Transphobia activist and author Charlie Craggs about transitioning in the media, grieving online and crucially The Saturdays concerts.👉🏼Remember you can find all posts discussed on Instagram @mightdeletelaterpod and we're on twitter too @mightdeletepod.Follow Charlie on Twitter @Charlie_Craggs and Instagram @charlie_craggsBuy Charlie's book To My Trans Sisters here.Follow Gina on Instagram @ginamartin and Twitter @ginamartinukFollowing Stevie on Instagram @5tevieM and Twitter @5tevieMWant to help us make more episodes? Support Might Delete Later at https://supporter.acast.com/mightdeletelaterHosted by Gina Martin and Stevie Martin.Photo by Joe Magowan.Artwork by Zoe Harrison.Recorded by Ben Williams and edited by Naomi ParnellProduced by Plosive Productions.Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/mightdeletelater. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Do you love Might Delete Later? I bloody hope you do. You can support our show by using the new ACAS supporter feature. It's up to you how much you give and there is no regular commitment. Just smash that link in the show description and support us now so we can keep making this podcast. Thank you. Hello, bonjourno and welcome to Mike Delete Later, the Italian edition. It's Not. With me, Stevie Martin, who wants to kick social media,

right in the crotch. And me, Gina Martin, who likes it and would like to offer it some ice and a calm, warm place to recover. That's very nice. Thank you very much. But to our guest for today, she's an activist and author.

She founded Nail Transphobia. She recently made it onto the Independence Rainbow List was called The Voice of a Community by Vogue and is one of the most influential and inspirational LGBT people in the UK, called that actually by The Independent and the Guardian. is Charlie Craggs. Charlie Craggs.

Also, we found out she's filming a documentary right now that's about to be on BBC 3 coming out around November. So there's a lot going on. There really is. We had a lovely chat. We chatted about all kinds of things. We chatted about... What I found very interesting was the post that she talked about regretting

was something very, very cool that she did on Five Live. But it was about, obviously, she's going through different stages of her transition. So looking back on herself, years ago when she wasn't as far along as she is now, is, it's very interesting to hear somebody talk about that. And also I think as well, we talked a lot about just like being, being yourself on social media, how to balance like, you know, serious stuff with, with funny stuff. Because she's really funny on Instagram, I have to say, she makes me laugh a lot.

Yeah, like allowing yourself that joy, especially when you're doing something that's about serious stuff a lot. I think that's a really important thing that I probably need to take heed of more a little bit as well. But before we get into the episode, Stevie, what's in your drafts this week? Okay, in my drafts are. Now, it is social media because it's D-Pop,

which is basically social media, isn't it? Sure. Deepop is for anyone, it's like set up like Instagram, but you sell and buy second-hand clothes. And I got a message, I wanted to buy, I wanted to buy some AirPods, but they're too expensive.

They're like 200 quid or something, so I went on D-pop, and someone was like, like please message before you buy. So I was like, can I please buy them? They're 40 quid. I was like, can't please buy them? And they were like, yeah, you can buy them.

But can you pop them through on PayPal friends and family, which basically means that you don't have any bioprotection and you can't get a refund? Because I'm popping to the post office now. And then I do really need the money like immediately. I was like, okay. And then did it. And then I was like, maybe they need the money. And then got a message like, you know, later on being like,

my account got hacked. So I hope you didn't give any money to. the hacker but I'm sure you didn't because it was obviously the most obvious hack everyone. I was like, I did. Oh no. And they had to email Deep up and they were like, yeah, I mean, no, you can't get the money back because it specifically says you have to do it through PayPal, not friends and family. And never, I was like, of course.

And also, why did they need the money now? Hang on. So you actually lost that money now? Yes. Oh! Literally. So I was like, can I have some money, please? Can you send it with no protection, which means you can't get a refund?

And I said yes. Yes, please. It's less a, I'd like to delete me giving people money. I'd like to delete me getting scammed because I'm such an empath. What's in your draft this week? Yeah, in my drafts is that I really want to watch the documentary of the social dilemma. Okay, so apparently it's an eye-opening look into the way social media is designed to create addiction and manipulative and manipulate our behavior told by some of the very most amazing people and systems at places like Facebook, Google and Twitter. Do you know, just watch it? Just watch it?

All right, well, yeah. That sounds weird. I just find myself really wanting to watch these things, but then at the same time, there's a huge tension because it's like, I know you're going to tell me everything I'm doing is bad for myself and everyone else. But I want to be schooled because I want to be on top of it. But at the same time, it's like just custom designed

to make me feel stupid about what I'm doing online. But I will watch it and then I'll get back to everyone and tell them how good it was. Go to at My Delete Later Pod so you can see all the posts we discussed with Charlie today. They're on our Instagram in a new fancy format. And there's going to be some more little lectures on there. Who knows?

Just enjoy the episode as well. It's a really fun episode. I thought it was really fun, interesting, very moving as well. And basically covers the entire gamut of what Charlie is like as a person. Very, very funny, very, very smart, very, very activist. Very, very activist. Enjoy. Okay, so every week we decide something we'd like to delete. What I'd like to delete this week is VIB's, which are, you know, like, McVitties' chocolate digestive biscuits? I saw your story. So basically they've like, apparently they've like leveled off and made the best biscuit ever made imaginable. The end line is like hard to describe. and me and my housemate had a packet yesterday and they taste like

dusty discs of hell. Yeah, but you still have the packet. You're like, we had a whole packet and they tasted shit. I know. You're like, we still at them. I know. I'm just disappointed with that.

Yes. And then Stevie, what would you delete this week? I'd like to delete. You know the bit where you're at the park and you're having some drinks, you're having some laughs. And then you realize like, you can't, like about, well, it varies

depending on, I suppose it, but like after about an hour I can't sit like I can't get the right sitting position in the park so like my bum hurts and then you're sort of like leaning over and then and then you're like try and find a slope so that you can kind of naturally pose and then and then sometimes someone talks behind you and then you're like backwards on a slope looking up with your legs in the air

I can't stand it so I think we should either normalise bringing bean bags to the park and no one should make a comment on it or just like little cushions or little potty's. But I just would like to delete the concept of very straight grassland. Great. All right. Charlie, what would you delete? I would like kind of delete everything.

It's been one of those weeks, but mainly Tory. So I posted on my story yesterday, like how I was like, there was a guy actually liked a lot. Like we were talking and stuff. And I was like, oh my God, he seems like really good. And then I found out he was a Tory. And I was like, no. And that's my thing.

is like, I'm just like, I post it because I'm like, so many people are very like anti-Tori online, but I feel like they'll let things slide if like in the same way, like I feel like a lot of people have like homophobic boyfriends or racist, like family members or friends. It's like it just like it's like it's like a universal thing. Like it's just like no, it doesn't matter who they are like friend, family, fiancee like no. So that's why I posted it. I think they all are a strong one. Yeah.

There we go. Bickies like sitting down and then Tories are like the majority of. The majority of this country, for like your two are a bit more achievable, but yeah. Literally. That's great. Also, okay, so what we do each week is we look at our average screen time. Now, I don't want you to feel bad about this.

This is a safe space because when we first did it, mine was nine hours and 45 minutes. Oh, that's because of vitamin P. It is because of vitamin P. At least you have an excuse. I don't have an excuse. Mine is just from being on like, hinge, literally. Okay. Oh, praise the Lord, it says turn on screen time, so it doesn't tell me, right?

There's a dab. You can put that in the promo. Oh my God, yay! I can promise mine would be like close to Gina's. Would it? Maybe not as close because I'm not a loser like Gina, but yeah. So when we first did it, mine was four hours 45 and I was like, do I remember about it? Like, I'm just sort of on and off, like, it's fine.

That's low, yeah. And then this week, it's seven hours. it's gone up by 56%. So what I'm saying is it's very easy to gloat, but then next week, it just takes one lapse in judgment, and then suddenly you've spent all of the waking day on your phone. Mine is literally, currently,

I'm just going to tell you what today is because I'm just like absolutely stoked. Don't tell anyone on the podcast that it's half 11 in the morning. So mine is two hours, eight minutes. But my average is five hours and 28 minutes. That's great. So I've not really changed. Oh my God.

Nine hours. That's a five hours. Yeah, that's actually true. That's a lot. That's a lot. I'm good. I love both of your Instagram and Twitter outputs, Charlie. I enjoy them a lot.

From the other side, which do you prefer Twitter or Instagram? And for why? I literally don't even use Twitter. I'll do like, I'll come on and tweet about. something and then not tweet about something for like 10 weeks. I hate it. I just think it's so toxic. Like it's just I don't know, especially with the nature of my work like the like for some reason I don't get any or I get some but not much like transphobic stuff from feminist on Instagram or get from guys. But then on Twitter like if I dare posted something it would be like inundated

with just like crazy like crazy amounts and they really stump whole trans girls. And I'm like I'm not here for that. Like I'd rather I'm tempted to delete it just because I'm I don't want to, like, especially with like Black Lives Matter stuff, like I was really big on posting loads. Like I only, literally I only posted about that during like the kind of peak of it. I was like, I'm not going to post about anything else. But on Twitter, I wasn't posting anything because I'm not on there. But then I was worried.

I was like, what if someone's like, you've not posted a single thing? And I'm like, I'm going to get judged by my lack of, not just about Black Lives Matter, about everything, my lack of content on Twitter. I'm like, maybe I should delete it. But at the same time, I'm worried that Instagram is going to like crash one day. And I'm going to be like dependent on other kind of platforms. It's hard, isn't it? Yeah, but if that happened, they'd have to come up with something else because, like, you're just saying, Twitter, for me, as like a writer and also, you know, like, a cis person, even I, I'm absolutely exhausted by the amount of transphobia that is on there, that leaks through when I'm just sort of, like, looking at something completely different.

It's insane. Yeah, and they have, like, like, forums, like, weight into pounce. Like, I've Googled my name before, as you do, and I've seen that they've been, like, forums about me on, like, Mum's Net. where they like, that's mum's net, it's like a hive of transphobia. And they were like talking about trying to docks me and stuff. And it's like, it's just mad. I'm like, I'd rather not, like, to be honest, like on Instagram. Like I've kind of cultivated a community and cultivated like my space.

And I don't even like look on other, like everything on my like feed is everything I'd want to see. Whereas on Twitter you're like being shown things that you don't necessarily want to see like trending thing. I just, I'm not here for that at all. Also, you're known outside of social media for your work. It's not like you, you started on. Instagram and that's all you do is like branded content or whatever, which will actually get on too late because that's one of my favourite things that you do. But you're known outside your work. You're respected outside your social accounts for your work. So I feel like even if you did

delete Twitter and say Instagram got closed down, you'd be able to rebuild because you've got, you've put stuff out of the world. You've got now transphobia. You've got your book. You've got stuff going on outside of it. Do you know what I mean? Thank you, Gina. That's really sweet. That made me feel a bit better. Yeah, I've been thinking about doing it for a while. You're very, you're very very sweet. I wanted to ask about Charlie, your relationship with brands and branded stuff on Instagram because obviously you didn't start off that way. You started

off doing all this amazing work and you got people took notes of you quite quickly. But I know how hyped you get basically your stories and you get like gifts or like free shit and you're like you call yourself like Huela and like it's so funny and how do you like obviously the commercial side of this work

is fun and stuff. Do you enjoy it? Do you find it at odds of what you're doing? or do you like because you take the piss out and it makes people want to send you stuff more? I don't know. I used to be really like wary of like I don't want to get called an influencer because that's going to discredit my activism and you've probably had the same thing where it's like because they do. And I feel like it's a woman thing as well because like they it's kind of like if you're

pretty and like I'm not saying I'm pretty but I mean like doing I guess there's what I'm trying to say. Doing feminine things like whether it's post-mat fashion or makeup or like getting three cute things and da-da-da. It kind of like they will use it to like kind of like that. track from your, yeah, and it's like, yeah, I don't know. So I've always like been really like wary of calling, I definitely not calling myself and it's a lot of influence about being seen as one. That's why I like never ever did YouTube even though. I was always like, do YouTube, do YouTube.

I'm like, I don't want to get called like YouTube or Charlie Craggs. I'm like an activist, Charlie Craggs and I don't want to like kind of take away. But then at the same time, bitch, like if it wasn't for social media content, I would have literally starved to death and been homeless during lockdown during Corona. So like I will never snub my nose at being doing influence to work or being called influencer ever again. At the same time, I mean, I don't want it to detract again from my activism, but I don't think it does. Like I've got to the point where I'm like, if Richard Branson, again, it's a man thing, but like if Richard Branson had like a YouTube channel, it wouldn't be like YouTuber Richard Branson, it'd be like, no, he uses YouTube as a platform for his job.

Like in the same way, we use Instagram as a platform to have a work. Do I'm saying? So like, yeah. I think there's a way of like reframing it in there. There's definitely, yeah, if you're a guy with like loads of followers and you're like getting sent loads of like shoes and trainers every day, you're a colour. You're a colouring. collector, but then if you're like getting those of shoes as like an influence, it's like, oh gosh, she's got a dicks into shoes. There's definitely like a weird lens on that with women. They just love to call you like a social media activist. And it's like, no, bit, I'm an activist period. And the same with you. Like, it's like, I didn't start my, like, not that there's anything

wrong with. I think social media activism is so important in this age, but like they use that to discredit. And it's often aimed at women, you know, like, they'll talk about insta models, but they never talk about it as like girls. It was like shaming girls who are like, to model. It's like, oh, you're not a real model, you're an Instagram model. And it's like, I don't know, it's very that, isn't it? It is. And it's, they can definitely coexist together. But it, I mean, me and Stevie had a massive argument about this, right? On Christmas Day, when Gina was looking to sign to her agency, my parents were like, what sort of aid, like, what is the agency? And I said, oh, well, they, they, they, they, they, they, they're great for Gina,

because they do a lot of, um, they work with a lot of influences and they kind of understand what that is. And then Gina was like, but I'm not an. And I'm not. influence and I was like, are you not? And then in a way, though, because you're influencing people. And then obviously now, I understand. It was like, it wasn't the fact that I was, that I was called an influencer that was problem. It was the fact that that was the thing that always came first before the work. And then we and Steve, you had this really passionate conversation where she was, and Stevie is a comedian and in her show, she did a whole show about social media and there was all these bits about influences in it. But it was like, all the same shit that I would say

and that you would say, Charlie. But I thought it was aimed at me. So we kind of felt like unpicked it all while crying at the table. Yeah. I love that. They can exist together. Should we go on to your first post and your... Yes. Of your three.

I went back through your Instagram. It was so funny. We were pissing ourselves, laughing. It's the Saturday's one. Yeah. Super naughty is the best word. Do a little explainer of what it is for the listeners. I was at the Saturdays concert.

I felt like people will find that funny. will always be a little gay boy in me. Even as much as I transitioned there will always be this little feminine boy as personal sign me at birth in me who just stands like Brittany, Lady Gaga, the Saturdays like the cheeky girl like literally any female like pop singer. The cheeky girls.

I mean like so I don't know what it is. I don't know. It's our culture. I can't help it. Anyway, I just love the Saturdays and everyone's like love because I was like like a concert just like seven year old girls and then I forced my friend to come with me and I was just like I was living my best life. And that's just that I've always loved that line in the song.

Actually, I'm going to start, I have a radio show coming out for Soha Radio called Super Nauty. I'm going to do like, super, like, naughty hits and stuff and talk about like things from the noughties. But like, so, Michelle, like, basically a line in the song is we make the party super naughty. I just find it's so funny. It's so funny. It's so funny. It's so funny. It's so funny.

And the best part about that post is that, so it starts off with the actual music video and it's like so like it's like shot and they're all dancing and they've all got like they match out and then it just cuts to you at the concert and it's just like this bouncing like four bit video of the stage and just your voice behind it be like so I'm not oh my gosh it was so good it's incredible you can you can also just the listeners you can check out all of the posts we talk about of charlie's social on the might delete later instagram page might delete pod i was going to ask about how so obviously you know you do a lot of activism online but you balance it out with just sort of pure, essentially pure comedy. And when you're doing that, are you aware sometimes of like,

oh, I've posted a lot of like, you know, quite heavy stuff. Now I'm going to maybe lighten the feed. Or is it just kind of quite organic. How do you, how do you pick what sort of angle you're going to go for that day? Do you know what it is quite thought out? I'm sure Gina understands. Like, you don't want to, because I feel like people will unfollow you if you're just being a negative Nancy, even though there's, you have every right to be negative and there's so much to be angry about. But if you're constantly posting like things that are just like, people might find it toxic for themselves. Like, you know, I was talking about I don't want certain things on my feed, it's going to trigger me, it's going to make me feel upset.

People might feel the same. So I try to kind of like entice them into the activism by doing kind of like, just being myself and just like being real and being fun. And like, it just keeps people kind of like engaged in your content. Is it if you're like kind of not just being like a new, because you don't just want to become a news channel. Like that's not what we're for. We're people and we're like, we're multifaceted.

And we do have fun as well. And I think it just like, like, I said, it was just like a news channel of like depressing things like to do of activism, like things lose their effects. And I think if you were to like drop a really important campaign like Gina's recent one about like Instagram and like fat black bodies and stuff, like things like that, if you were to like drop something big like that after like not, like I don't know, just I guess desensitization like you'd be desensitized. If every, if every single post was like crazy like important and deep like that, people wouldn't get behind

them because they'd be too busy signing. Like they'd be like, I've seen. I've seen. I can't sign a petition every single day. And you overwhelm people, I think, a bit. Yeah. You all get overwhelmed. But I think it's really important what you said about as not being a news channel because I think it's very easy for your followers to treat you as an editorial platform. Can you repose this?

I want you to post this, post this information. And it's like there has to also be space for joy. There has to also be space for your joy and you as a person. Because otherwise you do just become BBC online or dazed or not your person. Also, it would affect you as well. Surely it would affect you if you're constantly posting like things. that you know, you obviously care about. So, but that it must be a nice break sometimes to be like,

and now I'm going to dance. Literally. To Victoria Beckham, honestly. Like, it really is that, like, my friend said that. That's why my friend does the radio show on Soha radio. And my friend was like, you need to do something. Because when they were saying, like, what do you want to do your show on?

I was like, obviously going straight to like trans activism stuff. And they were like, why don't you do something that makes you happy? Because you're always working on things that are like making, you're sad already. Like, you're already. a sad person and then you're doing more sad things. No wonder you're always sad. Like, do something that brings you joy and that's where I

the super naughty idea came from. So like, but it is so true. And what Gina said as well, what you said about like, being held to like the account of a news channel. And I've even seen, it's never happened to me. Thank God, because I'd cast them out if it did. But like, you're always being like, not always, but I've seen you postings where it's like, people would be like,

um, did it like complaining about something you've posted? It's like, okay, sweetheart. Like, I'm not like a new, like, you'll have biases and you're not like, also like you're a per, you do fun thing, like you have your own opinions on what's like, like it just annoys me that like people like like who are activists are expected to post like really kind of like, um, stale kind of like, like, um, like just like just be on top of everything. Like you can't, I don't know, it's just so many like, like, I just, I can't believe that the some of the messages you get and I'm just like, I would not deal with that at all. I'm sorry.

Like, so that's again, like a big part of why I kind of inject the fun because I want to remind people, I'm just a person, I'm just having fun. Like, this is Instagram, it's not that deep. So I mean, like, you can make it deep. But like... Yeah, you can care about stuff and laugh as well. Like, you don't have to never laugh ever because... Yeah, totally.

That'd be really bad for you. Should we go into a post that you regret? Because I was quite surprised when you sent this over, because from my perspective, I was like, that's a pretty good post. So the post that I most regret was, And it's like it's weird because like I don't regret it. I just regret like because I get so sad when I see stuff from like early in my transition on like on the inside. I'm like, fuck.

Like, but my future husband is going to Google me one day when he's like taking me for a date and going to see these horrible videos with my like old face and my like deep voice and like. And if I have a problem with that, they shouldn't be your future husband. That's true. That's so true, Gina. But I see I started doing media stuff maybe like 2016, 2000. Yeah, maybe like 2015. And I went on BBC Radio 5. And I know that's where you do your show now, Dina, right?

Yeah. Yeah. So I was on BBC Radio 5 Live talking about, because like there's been, it's the same conversation that's still going now and it's just like, why is this still happening. That's why my documentary is answering that question. But like these, all these false narratives around like trans kids transitioning like da-da-da-da, like the headline that weekends, like that's why they got me on was 50 kids a week being sent to sex change clinics and had a picture of a little child boy with his head in his hands.

And I was like, how is this allowed? because like you can't even have surgery till you're 18. Like, so basically this is what I'm saying in the podcast. I was like, you basically, it's such a disgusting lie to make out that like toddlers are being sent to have sex changes. And it's like, go. Like really? Like I've been waiting for six years. Where's my sex change?

So basically that's what I was on to talk about. And I'm really proud of the way I spoke actually. I feel like that's kind of my style of speaking and just being very real because like especially with like an audience like that. But just with all audiences, I try and be like accessible in the way that I. don't use, like, a lot of activist, use, like, really big words and speaking a way that people can't understand, especially the people who need to understand most. So, I'm a council of state girl. So, like, when I'm speaking, I'm keeping in mind that I'm trying to help or speak to the people like that, or when I'm doing nails, like, it's often with, like, other working class people

or whatever. And it's just like, it's really important for me to speak in a way that's real and and also engaging and fun, not like a stale, boring, like, blah, blah, blah, blah. So I just try and, yeah. So I said, I can't remember what I said, but I said something like, You said they're not just handing out vaginas. Yeah, they're not just handing out vaginas on the street. I said something like that. And it's the truth. I just, yeah, I'm proud of that.

But, like, at the same time, and I'm proud of doing that so, like, early on and young. And, like, do I mean, like, I can easily do stuff like that now. But that was such a big thing for me going on that show. And, like, just I got so much shit for that on Twitter. Actually, that's so much shit you wouldn't even believe. But, like, yeah, I don't know. I just, like, when I look at old, I'm just like,

it's really hard as a trans person, like, kind of, like, choosing when to, like, archive. from what point do you archive because like it's so like I had Instagram before I transitioned I mean like around the time that I transitioned so like when do you like how much do you show the world like all these like things like that I'm just like I don't want people and it's like weird because I don't mind my followers seen and most of my followers are girls I think it's like a 75 25 split or something so it's mostly girls and I'd say most of the boys are gay so like I've come to a real sense of peace on Instagram where like it's so liberating that I just don't like I used to

always wear makeup to do stories and I'd speak in a much much. more like soft voice and now I'm like, fuck it. And I'm my like engagement is not even, I'm not even doing it for the engagement, but my point is I'm having more fun. People are having more fun watching it because I'm not trying to be perfect and be like the ideal, like, the ideal of like femininity like that's put on the pressure that's put on a transoment to be like this kind of like, oh my God, you're so unclockable and like there's just so much press.

I'm like, fuck that. Like I'm going to come on in my fucking like big swollen. I've got a cheek infection at the moment. I'm going to like have acne. I'm going to like have my hair's going to be messed. And it's so like, it's so much better. and I feel sorry for the girls who are still in, like, the cage of feeling like they have to be, like, so perfect and pretty and, like, even kind of sexual online, like, where they're just, like, having to, like, perform their, and, like, restrict themselves and just, like, imagine, like, you want to say something and you've got to put on a 45-minute face before you do. I used to do that. I used to refill my, like, stories, like, 10 times so that I got, like, a more feminine voice. I'd, like, get it to the point where I'm, like, oh, my voice sounds nice now. And it was because of, like, worrying about, like, boys that I, like, seeing it from dating apps or, like, whatever.

And I'm like, now I'm like, fuck it. And it's literally the most liberating thing in the whole world. Like, so yeah. That's so good. Hopefully you can get to a point as well where you can like look back at other stuff and feel more at peace with the fact that, look, this has just been your experience in your life. And don't be worried about people seeing it because I don't think anyone would look back at that and not just be, because you just watch that. You're just listening to what you're saying because you're making very, very strong points.

So it's just, you know what I mean? It's more the context of it. But of course, that's something like we all have in common. I feel the same too. You know, I think a lot of us perform our femininity. I think a lot of us perform online and all of us are at different stages trying to get past that

no matter who you are and that's something, that's a challenge online. Can we bob on to the post that you're most proud of? Can you tell us about this post? Yeah. So I don't want to cry.

I'm like such a fucking mess. I'll probably end up crying but basically, so around the general election, the most recent one, I posted about like, because I talked about it sometimes, but I don't really talk about my friend. So my best friend was killed in Grenfell.

And I don't talk about her mum, who was like a second mum to me. And I don't talk about it much because I don't feel, I don't know how to say, like, a lot of people don't respect your grief. And like, you don't owe your grief to anyone. So, like, sometimes it's better to be kind of private. So, like, I never really spoke about it. And then when it came to the general election, I like, and like the expected kind of outcome of the votes.

And I was like, oh, God, if the Tories won again, like, obviously, like, I hate the Tories. Obviously, like, I'm a working class person. working class on a council estate in one of the top five fucking poorest parts of the UK where Grenfell is like that's a really poor part. So we hate the Tories, period. And I'm so angry about the whole Grenfell situation because of the Tories because they were the people who covered it in cladding to make it more pretty for the posh people because we live in, it was like a posh borough, but just a poor part of that posh borough. So like they were the people put the cladding on. They were the people who

cut the services, like the fire services and the fire services were so late getting to it and then didn't have the, like there was not enough of them and stuff. And just like the fact that, I don't know, even the fact that the prime minister, that the queen stopped by, the prime minister didn't even stop by. It's like, I don't want to cry to make me sucks yet, but it's just so, it just, it just, it just, it just makes me so angry. I want people to, like, understand, like, how important it's because it's kind of forgotten now. But the reason I'm proud of that post is because I, like, basically posted and just, like,

rip everything about, like, how this is all, like, down to the Tories. This is not just, like, a tragedy that just happened. It's because of austerity. that it happens. And even the way, like, like, like, re-smogs, like, basically called everyone

who died and it's stupid. And, like, just like so many, just like the way that they've blocked the bill now about how to take on the recommendations of taking the toxic cladding off buildings and, like, just things like that. And the fact that they released the report

the day before Brexit so that they knew people would only talk about it for 24 hours and then stop caring. Like, it's just so disgusting. And it's all, it's a Tory problem. It's not an opinion. that it's not like a it's not just like the government it's literally the to like the to yeah it just it just makes me feel sick so I was like oh I was just so and I that was the first

time I actually cried on the store on Instagram I like went on stories and I was just talking like really trying to encourage everyone to vote because we know that so many people don't vote and it's because we they just feel like um powerless and like their their vote doesn't matter and like there's no point and like when you look at the results like it does feel like that way because they won by a landslide but at the same time if I just wanted to encourage people to vote by just being really raw and just like showing my grief for one of the first times. And I was just like, and it's my most like liked and engaged with posts. And it did really well.

And like, Labor shared it. And I got a lot of attention. I had so many people message me. A lot of like people saying like, hey, like they don't even follow me. Just like they would message me. And people that like quite different to me like a lot. I had quite a lot of straight boys even like and be like, hey, I saw your post. And I just want to say you're the reason I like voted.

I'm going to cry again. But like they just say it was so nice. That's nice. It just was so nice. And they lost, obviously, so it's great. But the point is, it's my most proudest one because I felt like I was, I did it for my best friend. I did it. Oh, obviously for everyone, but like I felt like I was honoring her.

Yeah, it's really nice. Oh, Charlie. I think it's so, me and see if you were talking about this before, we were looking at your post and, like, posting about your grief online is such a raw and, like, hard. thing to do. Especially when it's political, like you're saying. Yeah. Like even with your upskirt in, I can't. I just imagine that how many times I've seen videos of you even like when you're crying,

talking about it because it's so, it's your, it's so, yeah, it's just that. So I know you, I know you get it. It's really scary sharing your grief because it sounds stupid. Like you're not looking for likes or shares or follows. If you're just looking for people to hear you, if you're going to say it, you want it to be heard. And I can't imagine. And I feel so grateful.

And I haven't even got a massive following, but for the fact that I even have a slight falling because I can't imagine feeling the feelings I feel around, Grandfellow, around the transphobia kind of growing on right now and not being heard. Like, if I only had like a few, maybe 200 followers and just shouting into a void of like, I would, I can't, that's my worst nightmare. So I just feel so blessed. But like, I did get so much. I got abuse on it as well.

Like, I haven't actually chased up. I meant to chase up at the time because my followers found where she worked. I had a few people like, message me and be like, oh, boo, who, like just selling really mean things after I was like quite yeah like I like posted about it at the time like people are just so mean like people like um and they were like they're not they're not like um bots or trolls they were like real people because like people my followers like hunt I posted all the people who'd send me mean stuff and it was a lot of women as well as a lot of young women something you do a lot like you hold people to account who's absolutely you're not going to miss me because a lot of

people are too scared to do that absolutely I'm not I've been a victim enough of my life I don't I refuse refuse, I would rather die, I refuse to be a victim ever again. I'm never, ever. I will always get my own back. Fucking hell, that's that a counselling session. Jesus Christ. No, but it was brilliant and really interesting and I want to thank you so, like, thank you so much for coming on and also for talking about things that are very difficult to talk about. It's very easy to not, it would have been very easy to just pick another post, you know? Yeah. But you, you chose to kind of go in, go in hard. And, um, always.

And I think, yeah, I mean, you can't fail to be moved by it, really. So, yeah, you're very, very brave. Also, just thanks for being always literally you on social. Oh, there's nothing else I can be, babe. I'm not intelligent enough to be anything else about me. I'm not that calculated. Well, we love you, and thank you for coming on Mike to late later. I love you both so much.

Thank you for having me, girls. please do follow Charlie on Twitter at Charlie underscore Craggs. If she still has Twitter, I hope she does delete it. And Instagram, which I hope she doesn't delete, because she's great and she's having a nice time on it, at Charlie underscore Craggs. And also, if you want more content from Charlie, she has a Patreon. This is patreon.com forward slash Charlie Craggs, where she does like podcasts, extra stuff. She also offers like mentoring as well. So if you have any further questions for her or you think you would benefit from that, then

then absolutely sign up. Yeah, go ahead and look at the pictures on each different tier because she photoshopps her face into more weird expressions the higher you pay money, so it's quite good. You can also follow us at Might Delete LaterPod on Instagram and at Might Delete Pod on Twitter. You can also email us and your guest you'd like to see in the podcast. Stevie, have you checked the inbox?

Absolutely not. Great. And look, give us an amazing review, not any bad ones, please. And also you can subscribe to help people find us. And what should we remember, Gina? Well, Stephen, we should remember that social media can be a brilliant place for activism, for honesty, for creativity and for joy. But it can also be a place that brings you down, makes you feel sad, and can be a bit overwhelming at times. But however you feel about it, if it makes you feel a bit overwhelmed or rubbish, then just, you know, you might as well delete later.

All right, bye. I'm