Might Delete Later - Ep 18: Henry James Garrett

Episode Date: October 15, 2020

Stevie and Gina are joined by illustrator, writer and creator of the brilliant Instagram account formerly known as Drawings of Dogs, Henry James Garrett. They chat about comparing yourself to others online, putting yourself out there in the first place and drawings of dogs (obviously).👉🏼Remember you can find all posts discussed on Instagram @mightdeletelaterpod and we're on twitter too @mightdeletepod.Follow Henry on Instagram @henryjgarrett and Twitter @henryjgarrettPre-order Henry's book This Book Will Make You KinderFollow Gina on Instagram @ginamartin and Twitter @ginamartinukFollowing Stevie on Instagram @5tevieM and Twitter @5tevieMWant to help us make more episodes? Support Might Delete Later at https://supporter.acast.com/mightdeletelaterHosted by Gina Martin and Stevie Martin.Photo by Joe Magowan.Artwork by Zoe Harrison.Recorded and edited by Naomi ParnellProduced by Plosive Productions.Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/mightdeletelater. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Do you love Mike Delete later? I bloody hope you do. You can support our show by using the new ACAS supporter feature. It's up to you how much you give and there is no regular commitment. Just smash that link in the show description and support us now so we can keep making this podcast. Thank you. I'm Stevie and this is Tessa and we're the hosts of the Nobody Panic podcast. Excitingly, Nobody Panic, as in me and Tessa, are going to be doing the Unmute Festival,

which is an online podcast festival in association with. a cast. Come and hang out with us, please. It's from the 20th to the 24th of October, the whole of the Unmute Podcast Festival. And if you're fans of the Adam Buxton podcast or off-menu or the Blind Boy podcast or Films to be buried with with Brett Goldstein or the cuddle club with Lou Sanders and dot, dot, dot, many more than all the tickets are up on the website at unmute podcast festival.com. So get in there and by that. I mean, come and watch it. Hello and welcome to Mike Delete Later with me, Stevie Martin, who is factually correct. when she says, or I say, social media is the end of civilization as we know it.

And me, Gina Martin, who thinks maybe that's true, but I believe we'll all be able to make it work and they've happily ever after. Oh, you are naive. You're a knave. Okay, to our guest. Yes, our guest today is Henry Garrett, formerly Drawings of Dogs on Instagram. He is an illustrator, a cartoonist, drawing wholesome memes on social justice themes. He's written and illustrated for The New York Times, the I-Newspaper, BuzzFeed and London Pride, He even created an alternative Valentine's card for the Fawcett Society and provided a feminist drawing of Megan Markle's dog as a gift for her.

And most importantly, he's also just releasing his debut book, This Book Will Make You Kinder, which is an empathy handbook. And his aim is that all of us read it and we're kinder after we read it. I've got two copies, so go out and buy it. We chatted about loads of things that I found really interesting, what it feels like when you're putting things out there and for the first time and why it's absolutely fine to message friends being like, can you please like, can you please like this?

Because I'm doing it by myself and I feel like I've got my entire bum out. We also, which I thought was really interesting, is that Stevie for the first time was able to ask someone the question, do you not think social media is just morally fucked though, which is really good? I said morally wrong. But you meant the F word. Yeah, I did, yeah. Yeah.

Because he's a very philosophical man. And he agreed with me. Spoiler. He did. Okay. What's in your drafts this week? Jean. In my drafts this week is that my phone is lava. You know you're wondering what that means. Oh, I'll tell you. It means that I have this technique, which is the only way that I can have a productive and fulfilling life, which is that when I wake up, I am not allowed to touch my phone until I've done something good for myself, which we've talked about previously. But I was like, I'm going to do it. And then I never did it. I'm going to start my phone is lava. I'm going to make sure I don't touch it until I've either worked out or had a coffee or had a shower. And then that will be my like social media health thing.

And you can check on me and ask if I'm doing it. I will check on you and I will ask because in my drafts, I remember the other week and you said you wanted to watch the social dilemma, the documentary. You were, you were frightened. You feared it. I watched it. You feared the truth. I watched it. And yeah.

So I'm terrified of all social media now. It also made me very aware that I took some steps a few years ago to mediate my, mediate, to limit my social media usage, i.e. turning off all my push notifications. I'm fascinated that people still have Twitter and Instagram notifications. I don't know how anyone does it. I don't have any of those. It's great. Then I had to, my phone exploded, so I had to get like it wiped and get it.

It actually explode, because you've said this couple times. No, it just didn't explode. It just like wouldn't turn on and kind of went like boob, like imploded. So everything got wiped. And when I loaded my WhatsApp back on, I forgot by accident to do WhatsApp, to put WhatsApp notifications on, which for about a day, I was like, this is mad. And this is no way to live because I can't see what people are saying. I have to check in order to see if I've got WhatsApp.

And I'm on day three now, and I'm going to keep it that way. actually, if something is a full emergency and I mean someone will have died, someone will ring. If it's a work thing, I check my WhatsApp enough to catch the work things. So it's fine. I'm going to do this. It just stops me like all of those millions of times when your phone screen lights up. And you go, oh, you're like, oh, it just stopped me doing that. Which means at the moment that my phone lights up, I check a WhatsApp. Then I'm on it for half an hour because I've decided to go out to check like Twitter as well. So it's made already, it's kind of slashed my phone usage to about a third. I'm literally doing it right now as you speak.

Do it right now. And the tip that they give you, at the end of the documentary, they give you loads of tips about how to limit your phone usage while also basically being like, unfortunately you can't because psychologically it's, you're never going to be able to get off it and we're all screwed. But one of the little things you can do, and I'm going to start doing it today from now on is to never click on something suggested for you. always make your own decisions because that takes the control away from the algorithm,

from whatever nefarious or not even nefarious, just ulterior motive your phone has against you. If you are making decisions, then you are, every time you make a decision that is yours and not suggested for you, that is coming from your brain, not secretly coming from your phone that you think is a decision that you made. That's such a good tip that you can use across the board. So turn off notifications and never click on something. for you because then you're doing it and the phone isn't learning for you. Yes.

Oh God. Look, the trainee has become the trainer. I am now a wizard. Go to at Might's Eat LaterPod on Instagram to look at all the posts that we discussed with Henry today. And just sit back and relax and just have a great time because I think this is one of my favorite episodes that we've recorded so far. So every week we ask. what would we like to delete this week? And I'm going to start, because mine's really boring.

I woke up this morning. My entire womb was ejecting itself in my body. And I was in so much pain. And I just have felt sick all morning. And I don't feel like I can do anything. And this is, I've put makeup on and I'm now here. And it's like, what a lovely job. But it just stops me in my tracks.

And so I would like to delete periods. But then it'd still be able to have a baby if I'd like one. I understand. Good choice. See, like, so why? yours is boring, mine is just like lazy and vague, but it is true. So it's my truth. I would like to delete everything. I am having one of those weeks where I'm, it's also Monday. I'm having one of these weeks where just everything is, everything's just, I'm just furious. Like I'm just furious with everything.

Good and bad. I'm like, oh, how good. Oh, how good. Like, terrible. So yeah, I'd like to do it. everything and just float in a pool of like very warm water like like I'd like to be in a womb while you'd like to delete your womb yes okay that's really good I think good connection I know how about you Henry what would you delete this week I'm gonna go with when I go for dog walks I realize that people just drop so much unfinished food on the floor and I would delete all of the food that my dog finds because she eats a lot of random you know and sometimes you're walking down the road and you're like who just dropped like a chicken wing you know what and why did they drop? What is your daily average screen time like just to kick us off? Yeah well so I just look to the

Instagram thing I don't have the phone thingy but it told me I spend one hour and 50 minutes on Instagram. Wow, apparently. That's good. That's good. Henry, mine was nine hours and 35 minutes. Not on Instagram. Yeah, but to be fair, most of my time is Instagram. Okay, my Instagram today is three hours and 25 minutes.

It's only half 12. Wow. But I'm wondering if that's from last night because I didn't go, I couldn't sleep last night so I was on my phone at 4 a. Do you reckon it would count today or is that just wishful thinking? Yeah, as long as it's off to, yeah. Yeah, my Instagram average is one, an hour and a half. Oh, God, I hate everyone.

Right. Yeah, my Twitter is really bad at the moment. I think I don't really post on Twitter much, but I spent so long staring at Twitter. Oh, my God, yeah. Yes, Twitter is my big one. And I think, as well, it is that thing of, it's like when you're, it's like watching a film,

and the plot twists are so incredible. and they also affect your life. So it's like an interactive film and halfway through that film you can't just be like, I don't care what happens. I'm going to switch off. So it feels like I'm constantly watching a horror film.

And it's interesting, why don't you post on Twitter? Oh, I don't know. I've just never gotten the knack of Twitter. I think most people are like this. They think they're like kind of good at one of them and, you know, don't know how to do the other. but I don't know how to tweet.

People on there are so funny. I'm like, how did you get so funny? But it's just, it's not me. I've never mastered it. You're very visual and your captions are very, like there's a lot of nuance in your work. So it's almost like Twitter just maybe isn't the platform for your type of work. I'm too sincere as well.

Like I think Twitter relies on, I mean, maybe this is like me big. But like Twitter loves insincerity and like very funny in sincerity. I'm not like digging on that. But I just, I think I'm like overly sincere. And like Instagram loves that. But if we, if you went on Twitter and we're like, you know,

just like trying to give those same vibes of like, oh, let's all just be a bit better to each other. Like everyone on Twitter would be like, fuck off. It's just a different spirit, isn't it? It is, yeah. Also, it's feeling as well, I think, something that informs your social media, which one you prefer is very much,

I feel very much to do with what you feel. feel like you can offer. So like you offer so much with your drawings and your illustrations and what that. And you kind of really like nailed that. I mean, this is probably more a Stevie question, but is there any part of social media that you struggle with? Like, do you know it's that it makes your mental health worse or anxiety worse or anything like that? Definitely. Like I, I think if I wasn't doing it, like, if it wasn't so involved in my job, I might be like one of those social media refusers type thing. I think lots of people have the experience of like,

you get loads of FOMO from social media. I don't think I get that. I don't know what I get. I think I just, yeah, I'm just aware of too much, like more than I need to be, news-wise, but also like, you know,

what's going on in people's lives wise. But I don't get like, I don't know, I don't really get like a FOMO, which I think is lots of people's mental health things. Do you compare yourself some, times. I've always wondered in terms of illustrators on Instagram. I think I don't super, partly because the people that I follow all do such different things. And like in a really like healthy way, like where like I love the work of everyone. I think I have actually seen people

doing fairly similar things to me before and decided not to follow them because I like don't necessarily want that. And I don't want like our work to sort of start getting closer and closer together because I'm like kind of seeing their stuff. So I think I mostly follow people who like, you know, are very much in a similar space and like, you know, have politics that I like and such things. But like, I don't know, what I do is like very specific and very weird. And I don't think like, you know, there's someone who I'm like,

oh, they're doing exactly the same thing as me. And then it's directly comparable. But you do see, I don't know, when I really wanted a book to happen, if I saw people doing a book, I would be like, oh, I want that to happen for me. You do compare a bit, but like I think I'm much more like comparing to myself with that. And that's unhealthy. I definitely get like, oh, maybe the cartoons I used to do were better.

And maybe, you know, that last post got this many likes. And I usually get, you know, whatever, stuff like that. But that's much more comparing to me than to other people, I think. Yeah, internal. But there are lots of things in illustration that I never want. wanted to do that like are people's you know huge wins but I'm like yes like I'm so glad you got that that you wanted but that was never my goal you know so you're into like sort of meta ethics and stuff like that Gina tells me and also I've seen as well I believe that social media is morally wrong

that's like a stance that I don't really have many stances and that's also because I think social media has ruined my opinion to have stances yeah I know that I feel it's terrible um As someone who studies that and is much more aware of that than I am, like how would you respond to that as a statement? So do you think you're saying that it's morally wrong to engage in social media or social media makes us do things that are morally wrong or it's bad for us from a well-being, flourishing, from a well-being, flourishing perspective?

Because I believe that it changes our behaviour without us being in control about or even knowing that we're doing it. because it means that we are at the behest of, well, the creators of social media and what they want us to do, even the things that we've go, but it's fine, I'm just posting a picture of, I don't know, my birthday.

It's like why, like it kind of makes, it certainly makes us change our behaviour. And I find that to be quite compromising because it sort of runs off our money, doesn't it really? So that's, the fact that it's all rolling off that makes me feel

that it's, it's, it is objectively not a healthy thing, even though we do get healthy things from it. But it's making our lives go badly for us, you know. It's, it was wrong for them to make it such as it is. But for me personally, me using it mostly doesn't make me cruel to other people. It makes my life go badly for me because, yeah, because it changes my desires in a way that makes them less achievable, almost. Is that roughly the statement of the position?

Yes. I'd be tempted to agree for it. Great. I think, and I would think at most people who get pleasure from it, or it helps their careers, or it helps them find connections, even people who get the positives from it, I think if you dug down, I think, because I would agree with that, even though I'm the one who loves social media on this podcast,

I think many of us, if we dug down would say, but do I know how it's making me change my behaviour? No, I can't put my finger on that. I can't say it's not controlling me in some way and that's where it starts to become murky. Shall we move on to your post? First post, first post. Sure.

So, Gina, please. So the first post, did you find? It's joy because when we did our bonus episode in between season one and season two, Henry sent this into our DMs on Might Delete LaterPod on Instagram. And it is your Father's Day card

for my dad starring Billy and actually for my papa starring Billy and it's a little drawing, pen drawing of Billy looking up in a park and she's saying, I swear to God if you throw that stick again you can go get it yourself dickhead and it's like the first drawing you did

when you tell us about this and when you first started drawing why did you start doing these on Instagram and what led to that? Yeah so 2014 yeah that's mad yeah it's interesting I think you know I did art at school and I drew dogs and I would always choose to draw dogs if I was going to draw anything.

I think at a certain point I, yeah, in 2014 I must have gotten the Instagram and I was like, oh, it would be cool to, I was doing things like this, little cartoons for like family members, maybe. This was like inside his card, I think. And I thought, oh, maybe I should try putting some of these on social media. And then I looked and drawings of dogs was available on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook and Tumblr. Yeah, I was like, this is a sign. It seemed really weird. But I really didn't, you can probably see, like, the posts were really far apart, at least initially. I really didn't know what I was doing with it.

And the second post is me drawing the dog Stella from Modern Family. So I did this series, drawings of dogs that belong to homeless individuals. And it was going to be more like that. It was going to be more like drawing dogs that have a role. And having their people, their humans, sort of in the background. And it kind of being about the people, but drawing the dog and getting like a quote from them maybe like about the dog. We're still like that idea. I mean, it's so, yes, please.

So about drawing the dogs. But I think that was an initial idea. But then I was just doing more like of the little doodly type things, probably because they took less time. And I just started posting a few of those. But yeah, that was... Like philosophy element come into it? Well, what I always say is that, like, they started becoming more, like, political and about, like, morality. When I dropped out of studying, because at that point, I didn't have that outlet for that sort of thinking, I guess.

Like, it was a side thing. And then when it became a main thing, it had to involve a lot more of, like, my values, if you see what I mean? I couldn't have it be nothing wrong with doing cartoons that are just jokes, you know, that would be fine. But for me, that didn't work once it was like my main focus, if you so I mean. Yeah, that makes sense. When you first started, did you, because it's quite exposing to put your, I know people that do doodles and love drawing, but the step of putting it on social media is such a huge step for a lot of people. How did you find that?

Initially, I had the Instagram, but like my real life people didn't really follow the Instagram. But I did post a cartoon on Facebook. But I think probably loads of people do this. What I did was I was like, oh, you know, did a little doodle. And I was secretly hoping that people would love it, you know. Yeah. You post, like, I think loads of people do this on social media where they're like, oh, not a big deal. that like gives you like sort of permission and also it's like maybe like good marketing or something

because people love to think that you're not trying really hard. Yes. I was nervous but I thought some of the early things were funny and I thought that other people I thought that other people would. I thought like my friends at least would think they were funny and would maybe like them and I was like people like dog jokes, people like dogs. Having a support system so if you do put something up, you have, you know. You get a few likes.

Like I think that's so, it's so underrated as a strategy. Yeah. I've never thought of doing that. I wish I had the gumption to just like when I started doing like online sketches or things to WhatsApp a few of my friends who I know wouldn't mind and be like, do you mind awfully sharing this? I won't ask you every time and I won't be one of those annoying people. people, but just it's really exposing and it would have really helped me because actually what

happens is, like, people will go like, oh, I like your sketch. You're like, why in you read Twitter? Yeah. Yeah, people don't mind. Yeah, especially like your core, your core people. My whole, like, career is probably thanks to doing that at the beginning. Like, it started on Facebook of me going, hey, this thing happened. Can you all please share this petition? Or can you all? And I started on Facebook because those are the people, my family, my friends who will, like, want to support me because they love and know me and they care about something. And then after that core group got involved, that's when I could then branch it out to other social media.

So I think everyone should do that if they feel brave enough to. Post you're proud of. So tell us about the story surrounding this post. I feel like it's quite obvious why you're proud of this post. You can go to At Might Delete Later Pod and see Henry's proud post. But basically, it's you holding your book. It's me holding my debut book, which is ludicrous, but it's also me because I use the debut book to propose to my partner Kitty. So it's a bit of a one-two punch of two of my proudest achievements of my life.

Number one, being that Kitty wants to be with me. And number two being that I got to write my dream book. I'll read the last little bit. Yeah. I'm using this book because I said Kitty's name should have been alongside mine on the front, but she disagreed. So instead her name will appear at the end. I love you and I like you.

Will you be my best friend forever, Kitty Gardner? Oh, so cute. You don't put pictures of yourself on your main grid, really. Obviously, this was because you had not only get engaged yourself or non-engaged book as well. Do you post pictures of yourself when it is a, only when it's sort of like, a big milestone thing. Do you have to have a little think? We're like, is this a me? Is this a me face time? You know what? I think if I posted a picture of my face and I didn't have massive news,

I wouldn't get very many lives. It's not what people are following my page for. And I think, you know, that's just a social media thing, right? That like people follow specific pages for specific things. If you post something that's outside of your wheelhouse, even if it's something that they might like on another page, people don't. tend to like it or, you know, share it or engage with it or whatever. I know that there are people who like enjoy my stories. And I think that's a different, you know, Instagram stories I do a lot of and like, show my face on there.

But I think that's a different group of people. And I think, you know, if you just want my drawings from my Instagram, I think that's completely fine. And I'm completely happy with that. Stories are like have become, I suppose, for people like yourself, they're like it behind the scenes. Yeah. Even me.

the nice, the really like well done pictures go on my main grid. Oh, that's a main grid. And then Instagram stories is it's like what I'm doing with my day. Like I've just built something or, you know, I'm bored or whatever. And then the good, like the stuff that you kind of want to present to the world goes and you're going to find that really interesting. And that's nice, actually. Literal with you.

Like it is kind of behind the scenes. I remember when I interviewed you for my book tour in 2019 at the beginning and June and you said, I remember I think about it all the time. And you said about how. how you put something out into the world that's good and goodness. It's like empathy and kindness and all these things. You put these things out into the world and you don't necessarily know where they're going to go. You can't measure them, but that's the really valuable stuff.

And it was a kind of idea that I guess I've always felt that I've never put into words. And we talked about your kind of career dreams and you said, well, I want to write this book. That when everyone's read it, it makes them considerably kinder. And that was such a beautiful, I think, idea because most people, it's like, I want to write the book and I want to be on the Times best-selling list, but it's like this thing that you can't measure, but it's actually so much more valuable than the other metrics that maybe you can measure.

And I think that's such a beautiful idea. I think about that all the time with my work, because that's kind of what my work is. It's like putting stuff out into the world and hoping that the wave crash is somewhere and it helps something or someone somewhere. Yeah, that someone's mind was changed. But I think it's mad that, you know,

I think it's amazing that we can write things or that people can write things and then you read them, and then you think differently about things and then you act differently about things. That's just like... That's amazing, yeah. What? And yeah, I think that's definitely what we aim for.

Worst post. Yeah. You didn't really, you said to me, you delete a lot. I struggle because I delete. Like, if there's something I'm not happy with, I delete it. So it's not like I can show my worst post, but I can show a post that, I sent to you that is one that I changed. Like I deleted the first post and I changed it because I was told that the, you know,

I was reminded that the wording was exclusionary of some trans people when talking about abortion. It's a pro-abortion cartoon. Tempon and a condom having a conversation. Yes. Yeah. And just the first draft of the wording, well, the wording that I posted just referred to women as the people for whom abortions are an important thing. And clearly, like, we know that isn't true. But I used that wording first time around,

and then a few people message me about it or, like, commented. But I remember Ash does art, particularly taking a bit of time to send me, like, a longer, you know, worded message about, you know. But I knew once they pointed out anyway, but I was, you know, and then it was really useful and then the thing with my drawings are I can change them quite quickly so I just you know change that and reposted it how does that like because I know a lot of people I guess in your job and I feel the same in my job like when you've been doing it for long enough and you're talking about issues that are really nuanced it doesn't feel I think a lot of people

think we'd be like defensive or whatever but doesn't feel like that because you're constantly learning and then you're producing something and then that comment section is often just an extension of the learning you were already doing. So it's kind of, you can appreciate it, actually, sometimes when people do that. How do you feel when people ask you to change things? And that's the first question. And do you get held to a high standard in other areas? Do you get messages that you think are unfair? Or do you not get that much of that? I think, yeah, I think, as you say, like, I feel pretty good about it because I've been doing it for a while. And, you know, and it's a real, like, opportunity. Because I get,

have quite a big audience and because I'd get to just put my thoughts out there which like you know who wants to hear my thoughts anyway but like a lot of people um yeah but then I get like I get to hear discussion of my thoughts and that's like such a that's such a fast forward way of learning right and yes that's such like an accelerator to to to your learning to have like you know I could write an essay and I'd get loads of comments on that essay and you know you know usually you have to pay to go and do a degree to get those of comments on your assays, right? But I just get them for free. That's actually a really good point of putting it.

I'd never thought about that. It does fast forward your learning, especially when you have a community that's supportive and they're just trying to help you understand. Yeah. Yeah, and they have a lot more perspectives than I have in my one brain, you know. So yeah, I really benefit from it. At the start, when you first started out, was there a point, was there ever, because when you first start getting criticism, constructive

or otherwise, you can deal with it sort of a bit like you can be defensive because I know that you're saying, you know, obviously you two have been doing it for a while, but the start, was it, was it sometimes hard to hear that? It's interesting because like, Junie, you just said, like, do you get held to a high standard? And I think because I'm a cis white man, I don't get held to a very I would probably believe that, yeah. It's so weird because I see the standards that some people are held to, and there are always people, you know, with multiple oppressions. And I just don't get help.

I get comments, I get people being helpful and stuff, but I do think the, we reserve the most brutal, well, not we, but like society reserves the most brutal vitriol including like, you know, social justicey people for the most oppressed

and the most marginalized people. And I mean, I think in some ways it's because it's like no one expects much of me. And sometimes that's like a blessing. And sometimes that can actually be a curse

because people are expecting a lot of certain people. So if we're saying that this speeds up your education, when there are communities that expect a lot from one another, there's a lot of knowledge there. And, you know, people are teaching each other and in community with each other. And I think maybe the fact that I don't get that much critique

is a reflection of the fact that not that many, not as many people feel like I'm a part of their community. Yeah, there's not a lot of people in your community. that would actually be holding you to account of the same conversations as you, actually. We pick and choose who's more palatable, don't we? Like, society picks and choose who's more palatable and who we decide is doing enough or not doing enough or who should be doing more, depending on what community you come from, what their intersections of oppression are.

So if you're not super, super visible and if it's illustrations at the front, it's a lot harder to pick and choose and give you shit because it's not a person that I'm picking on. But also, but when they do see me, they also see that, like, I'm a white man. And then that doesn't... Oh my God, you're doing so much. I'll let you be here. Yeah. But also, in the opposite side, it doesn't anger them, you know.

And yeah, it does. It's not like, oh, you're saying this? It's like, do you know what I mean? Which I think is a very strong effect. It's like Stevie said, you know, with some people, yeah, like we see the bar is so low with some people. Well, the bar is so low here and they're doing so much. Like, there's so little expected of you, so I'm not going to engage with it, which is, it's really interesting, actually.

It's interesting. And also, I, I said, I said, a really interesting episode in general. Isn't it just? Thank you so much, Henry Garrett. An absolute delight, genuinely, a real delight. We haven't had anybody who's an illustrator on before, and it's really interesting hearing about,

well, it's just you're very balanced, but also very, very honest, and it was really, really great to chat to you. Yeah, thank you so much. What an absolute gem of a man. Do follow Henry. It's just great. Do follow Henry on Instagram at Henry J. Gareth. And also, of course, by his book,

this book will make you kinder at all good bookstores. And you can follow us at Mike Delete Later Pot on Instagram and at Mike DeletePod on Twitter. You can email us any guests you'd like to see on the podcast. Could be literally anyone unless that they're awful and we don't want to platform them. But we'll make that decision, okay? Don't make that decision for us? Steve, have you checked the Gmail inbox?

Of course not. Right, good, because I have. So you can email us at Might Delete Later Pot at Gmail.com. And give us a review, subscribe, rate as it helps people find us. And remember, social media can be a brilliant place for learning more about social justice or drawing. But it also can be ethically ambiguous and morally wrong. But however you feel, remember, you can always just take a break or you might as well as well as you'd like her. Bye!