Might Delete Later - Ep 20: Owen Jones

Episode Date: October 29, 2020

Owen Jones – journalist, newspaper columnist, political commentator and Labour Party activist – joins Gina and Stevie for the last episode of series 2, to talk about the impact of social media on politics, playing the Twitter game, and collecting rockstar followers.👉🏼Remember you can find all posts discussed on Instagram @mightdeletelaterpod and we're on twitter too @mightdeletepod.Follow Owen Jones on Instagram @owenjones84 and Twitter @OwenJones84Owen's new book This Land is out now. Buy it here.Follow Gina on Instagram @ginamartin and Twitter @ginamartinukFollowing Stevie on Instagram @5tevieM and Twitter @5tevieMWant to help us make more episodes? Support Might Delete Later at https://supporter.acast.com/mightdeletelaterHosted by Gina Martin and Stevie Martin.Photo by Joe Magowan.Artwork by Zoe Harrison.Recorded by Ben Williams and edited by Naomi Parnell.Produced by Plosive Productions.Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/mightdeletelater. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Do you love Mike Delete Later? I bloody hope you do. You can support our show by using the new ACAS supporter feature. It's up to you how much you give and there is no regular commitment. Just smash that link in the show description and support us now so we can keep making this podcast. Thank you. It's the last episode of Season 2 of Might Delete Later! Yeah, but we will be back. We're back in the new year. We're just having a little bit of time of earth, which is French for egg. I'm Stevie Martin. Welcome to Mind to it later. I'm becoming more and more right about social media being the devil. And I'm Gina Martin who thinks maybe she's right, but how could something evil feel so damn good? To our guest, though, great guests this week. Yes, Owen Jones is an infamous British newspaper columnist. He's also a political commentator, journalist and Labour Party activist.

he boasts 1,140,000 followers online. He is the number one. That's far too many. He is the number one bestselling author of The Establishment and Chavs, and his new book, This Land, offers an unflinching, honest look at the rise of the left, how it probably to change everything, why it went so badly wrong, and where it goes next in the new world we find ourselves in. He's very funny on social media, despite the absolute bile that is thrown at him constantly.

And he's so positive, and he turns, well, like I say, into just funny, funny things. But also at the same time, like, he has had some real world, real world attacks, obviously. He's attacked on his birthday. He talks about that. It's bloody inspiring, if I'm honest. We talk around lots of different things about safety and political things and difference in opinions and free speech and hate speech and all that.

But it's like, it really does come down to that. Like, you have to retain hope. And he's a very good example of that. But before we sink our teeth into Owen. Okay. Yeah, Stevie, what's in your drafts this week? About a month ago, when you did that one day off social media thing, I also did it. And I found it incredibly useful.

And I committed every, to do one day a week off social media. And really happy to say, I haven't managed it once, which is terrifying to me. Do you want to do it together this Sunday? Yeah, of course. Let's do it. What's in your draft? Oh, yes. Thank you so much for asking.

I will tell you, and I've just got a coffee account. had a financial change in our lives thought oh we can handle this realize that's actually quite tight in terms of money and that coincided with a lot of people asking how they could like support the work I do the amount of resources I put out all this stuff so I just thought do you know what I'll get a copy account people can buy me a coffee I put new resources on each day things I've read it's basically like I'm not going to create original content like I'm going to tell you about anti-racism because I don't I'm learning about it I don't really know all about it so I just put like different articles maybe a podcast or like a book or read or whatever on there and then it's just like

like we can all learn together, which is nice. But those resources are public, so you don't have to pay to get them because it's not original content. But it's really sweet because the first day I said it up, I was like, maybe someone will buy me a flat white. And I've got to put so many coffees. Yay! Great. So let's go to the episode. Go to at My Delete Later Pod on Instagram to see all the posts that we're discussing today.

We hope you enjoyed this episode. Have a nice one. Flipfire round. What are we deleting this week? I'll go first. deleting 4chan. What about 8chan? Oh, I'm deleting 8chan and 4chan because I feel like...

All the chams. All the chans. All the chans. Because I've went into a hole and found out about Q and on and a whole bunch of other stuff and I feel like I'm living in a different planet. Stevie, what are you delete this week? I'd like to delete reviews for all art. I mean, I know that art can't exist without reviews, but I would like to delete all the reviews

because I think you should just enjoy things rather than having things trashed. or elevated. What would you like to delete, Owen? So I just press delete and then it's, bam, gone. Yeah, don't we? Well, if I just got a right-wing shittery, that would cover quite a lot, wouldn't it? That's a good one.

Because I'd get rid of 4chan and 8-Chang, they'd be gone. But also, like, the president of the United States, Johnson, Bolsonaro, in Brazil, he's gone. Yes, he's gone. Get rid of all of them. We'd be fine, everything'd be sorted. Well, hopefully world we live in, no reviews,

no 4chan and no right-wing shittery. Gone. Excellent. Now, to kick us off, what's your daily average screen time like, Owen? Do you know? It says five hours, 13 minutes. That's really good. I think that's the middle average. That's a good middle ground, no?

What are you on? So I've actually got a new phone and it hasn't switched it on. Oh, convenient. Yeah, I'm on today. Right now it's 1240 and I'm on 6 hours and 13 minutes. I got up at 5am. That's not normal. I couldn't sleep.

But 6 hours and 30 minutes, get a life. Ganny. you feel like you're on your phone too much, Owen? Yes, obviously, clearly, self-evidently. Good, honest. What am I wasting my life? You know what you sometimes are like, I'm just scrolling through Twitter, just scrolling,

what do I expect to find? What piece of life-changing, you know, I could just read a book? I could just have a chat with a friend, I could, you know, expand my cultural horizons. And instead I'm looking at people going, oh, you're communist bastard. I mean, is anyone ever going to lie on their death,

thinking, I wish I'd spent more time arguing with, with, I hate BLM, Trump is great from Bolton. No, no one's going to be thinking that. I don't know. I don't know I said Bolton. I've got nothing against Bolton. In terms of Twitter though, so your relationship with Twitter, obviously not great. Terrible. Dyer.

In terms of being on there, do you feel like, as a commentator, do you feel like you have to be on there a lot? Do you feel pressure? Yeah, I mean, you can't really do the job. that I do without Twitter probably. I mean, just in terms of my articles and stuff. And also a lot of my general kind of people who follow me for stuff often follow me specifically.

I don't know why, actually, because some of the inane bullshit I come up with. Yeah, I mean, it's a necessary evil but I could definitely use it less because the thing with Twitter is, so you know if you're like having a really nice day and most people you meet are really nice, but one random stranger comes up to you

and tells you just go, F yourself. You remember that most, don't you? and that has more of an impact than anything else. I think that's the thing with Twitter. It's like, and I set my notifications only to people I follow, though I do sometimes dip in, just to see what's going on.

And then it's like, it's a close the door again. I've got to ask, what is the mindset behind you just like wanting to have a dip in? Like, why do you dip in? None of us do. Like reverse validation.

Yeah, it is. It's strange. I think a lot of people are on social, regardless of their careers, So say, like, creative, like, whether you're a journalist, whether you do what I do as an activist, whether you're a comedian like Stevie, you think you're doing it to an aim,

so you're reaching, getting more following and trying to get people, explain your ideas to people and bring people in and all these things. Do you think there'll ever be a point where you're like, I've done it now, I can come off it, and let my work do you're talking? I've really, you know what, I've done that thing twice, which is actually very irritating when people do this,

but the reason I did it was, for my own sake, was said, guys, I'm going to stop. using Twitter except to just like post articles. And then I did that once and then the 2017 general election happened. I was like, well, and then I did this, I did that in, in February this year. And then the pandemic happened. And I could not, yeah, and that was the problem. And I was doing it because when people do that, it's really often just self-indulgence, like, no one cares. Why are you telling us this? Yeah. But actually, just go. You don't have to tell everyone. You're not that. You being on this platform is not like a big thing for most people in their lives. They've got better things to think about.

But it makes you stick to it, you think, by saying it's like, well, I've said it now. And if I keep coming back, people like, what are you doing? You said you were, but then both times, you know, I mean, it's hard to take, come off to it when the world collapsed and we were all under house arrest. Really, I felt mostly connected because I was on social. Like I wasn't seeing my friends and having the kinds of conversations I wanted to have. So being on Twitter and Instagram and just seeing other people going through the same thing, it kind of helps. do you follow accounts to switch off or do you only follow the sort of accounts that I'd guess you follow what do you mean for like right-wring people I follow loads of right-rigg people right-ridden.

Right, that's really interesting is that to diversify so you can see what everyone's saying. So you're not just as on. I also follow like, yeah, like musicians and stuff. Banz a fanboy over. What I do sometimes is it's so pathetic and I'm just going to admit it. What I do sometimes is go, because you obviously, I've got noticed people follow me generally, they're verified and then I'm like, oh, blue tick. Yeah. How pathetic is that?

And I'm like, who is it? And then can I say who I got this? I'm really excited by it. Yeah. I got Robert Smith, the singer of the cure. This is so pathetic. I'm just, and I'm like, I'm done. That's it.

I don't need to do anything. Yeah, but that's a good feeling that. We say like, I'm done, but we're never done. No, it's like, who else can I get? Well, no, because I said this when Johnny Mar followed me. I was like, woo, Joey Mark. See, you're collecting rock stars. But then he unfollowed me.

How did that make you feel quite seriously? Oh, I was a nervous track for a month, I would say. I started rocking in the fetal position, dribbling, wailing. Why? No, I mean, the only thing that I, he'd obviously done this thing where he'd massacred his follow-up because he went down to like 50 or something. But he was still, what he did when he was covering people,

he was obviously a mass call. He was like, get rid of them, get them, saw my name, he was like, get rid of him. He had that one moment where he was like, I actively think it would be better for my own life if this person was removed from my Twitter feed. It's reverse validation again. Reverse name drop.

Yeah. It's like someone famous walked off from me. I hate that. See, that's when the stakes get higher, it gets more like that. It's like, people felt like I got an email from Annie Lennox when I was doing the campaign being like, keep going, don't stop. And I was like, I think I'm going to be. I'm on the floor.

Like, that is not okay. Like, this is, everything is worth it. And then I followed her, and I worked with her. I didn't work with her. I didn't fucking remember that. And then I followed her. And then she, like, replied to my way and didn't follow me back. And I was like, see, that's on purpose, isn't it?

Because we met and you sent me an email. So you definitely follow me. Like, wow. You seem very, very positive, Owen, and very, of course, you're like, my relationship's dire, whilst my liking, of course. But do you ever have, does it ever, this is obvious question, but does it ever affect your mental health? And if so, how do you cope?

Yeah, I mean, probably, yeah, I mean, it does. Sometimes I'll get into, there'll be some mad pile on. I'm like, oh, my God, this is stressful. And people are like, and I'm like, why am I looking at this? It's like, oh, I'm trending at number three, because I said people should, I mean, what, that was funny, actually, when I said people should pay, if they can afford cleanies, they should pay for them to stay at home.

And then that became cleaner gate. Yeah. There was seven articles. Seven articles read about it. Because I didn't know, I never, often I don't know who started the thing, but I'm just like reading that everyone is talking about something. And if you trace it back, it's normally you. It's mad.

Yeah, I don't, I don't, because people say there's always a main character of Twitter and the game of Twitter is to avoid being that person. And I think sometimes I keep stumbling into that. Sometimes by saying something I just thought would have been quite innocuous in that particular. case, but yeah, I mean, I think what I found with Twitter, without going to go overly serious, is that what happened is when I started getting targeted in real life by far my extremists, like doing my job and then Tommy Robin's support is coming after going to go, and then I got being up by Nazi. So then I was like, oh, right, these people online. I know. Well, you know,

you know, chalked that one off. And as that was on my bucket list, get beaten up by a Nazi on my birthday. Yeah, I mean, I think then it was like serious. But yeah, I mean, I think definitely having lots of people screaming minus abuse. I find what I find most kind of often. Not like, often I just get abuse. I'm like, fill your beats. It's when people like question or my motives or no. It's like, aha, he's doing this because he's a careerist or because he, you know,

like I've got some more tier of motive. And I'm like, but I don't. I know what's in my own head. But yeah, I mean, definitely having lots of people. Yeah, I mean, obviously it's not often healthy. And I often just end up, I just get in a little mars, a word that's not used. enough. Yeah, I sook. I'm like, I'm just scared. I'm like, does it make you feel, because I, I feel like I'm constantly on this little flux of like feeling. You know, like,

you see things and you're like, this makes me feel better about people and then you see other things. You know, this makes me feel awful about people. Are you constantly in that flux or do you have quite a kind of like, there's good and bad, I get it? Like, there's going to be this debate all the time. This was the job I picked. I sort of get it. Do you feel quite level-headed about it? Or do you feel like it does really affect your mood? Yeah, I mean, I think, I know, like obviously, given the views that I have and a lot of, and a lot of, of people are very, very opposed to those opinions. That's kind of inevitable. And yeah, I mean, some people, obviously there is, you know, some people are quite obsessed the fact I'm gay and not a

positive way. And they think, but I'm like, not in a positive way. Not in a positive way. Which is odd because I don't think I ever suffered homophobia until I reached my 30s and then suffered homophobia in relentless daily basis online, obviously generally. I mean, you know, obviously I've had, um, Freight, people screaming, Josie, Yuzu, homo, which is an original riff. But yeah, I mean, online, yeah, definitely kind of,

I kind of, I'm resigned to the fact that I know it's going to happen, that doesn't make it sometimes easier. Sometimes I get stuff on the, so like I called out this tweet about where someone compared Labor's slogan, Boris Johnson's slogan, a vote leave slogan,

to Albaqt-Macht-Fri, the sign, slogan of used by the Nazis and extermination camps. And I was like, you can't do that. And then that caused a big storm. And I had some lefties screaming at me. I'm like, oh, my God, this is so depressing. Yeah, I was going to ask, because you mentioned before about obviously what happened to you in

real life that came from this online sort of hate that you get. And I remember when I was doing my campaign, I got so many threats by guys all the time. And I was always terrified of it turning into a real life thing. because you know with our jobs and you're like, I'm doing BBC at 6 or I'm going to be here or whatever. And I just wondered to finish off this little segment, did that and did you notice that affect the way you are online? Like, do you not post where you are or whatever?

Did it change anything? Yeah, I mean, firstly, your campaign was so inspiring and incredible. And it's so important to always, you know, make clear that it's particularly women who suffer online because of the ingrained systemic misogyny. and it's not just men on the right, it's men who call themselves left wing. I'm always very suspicious when a man has feminist in their... Oh my God, hugely, but how sad is that?

Because that should... I always feel like that should be a good thing, but then I'm like, oh, you may be an incal. Yeah, that's... But that's why... I just imagine a guy trying to chat up to him going, I am such a feminist, by the way. That's what he makes me.

You think. So, but, you know, there was some men who hate, hate women with an opinion and women in public life who fight against misogyny. And you did that so amazingly and courageously. Anyway. Thank you. So softened as a consequence. Yeah. I mean, before I got actually attacked, because there was so many incidents. So the Guardian hired the security company. And they went through. They actually went through. It was really clever. They did this kind of deep dive. And they went through my Instagram account and worked out my old home address. through Instagram. Whoa. So they were like, you know, you've got to. So don't, you know, I can't take, you know, don't have a picture of your window because we can use this and work out where you live. But they, so I can't, I'm not allowed to, yeah, I can't post where I am.

So when I do video sheets, I can't, I have to wait until we've left the area until I can tweet anything about where we are. We've got these systems and, like, I can't, you know, after, you know, I can't late a night, even if there's a pub in it. because when I got attacked, the pub was seven minutes away. And it was like, what was the five? I mean, I left with five other people. So, like, I didn't leave a loan.

That would have been bad. It was like, they could have followed you at home. And so it's like, you have to get a cab everywhere, that kind of stuff. So in terms of my online behavior, yeah, I need to, but not in a kind of like, I won't post this because I'll upset the far right. Then they've won. No, the key thing is, is not to live in a reign of terror. Then they've, they've won, you know. Yeah, I totally agree with that.

I'm never going to change my opinions, my beliefs. I'm not going to stop fighting for my beliefs. But yeah, I mean, that I have to do security precautions all the time. And let's be honest, like that's just probably a good thing for most of us to be doing with big platforms, you know? Like, we, I mean, I do that and I haven't been in that situation. So it's, I think that's really important if you can keep some semblance of. We have. We have been stalked.

Yeah, that's true. So, I mean, you just just a pop in here and say. Isn't it great how you just spend your whole life going, no, honestly, it's actually fine. I actually haven't been through that much. And then you go, oh, yeah, no, actually. Actually, it actually have loads of. Yeah. It takes somebody with like, no.

platform doing nothing to do that anyone would want to hurt me to go, oh, actually, very much. Yeah. It's very bad. I think it's very, it's very, it's, but it's, I think every time you have to think about, it must get easier. It must get like, okay, I just won't place with a window or whatever, but the first few times you're doing that, it must feel very like, oh, for God's sake, like, why am I living like this? Just, why am I being forced to live like this just because Well, it's tedious, isn't it? A lot of them is just, do you not find it? It's just actually quite tedious and boring. Okay, well let's get out of some cute stuff, like your first post.

Although you apparently deleted all of your first posts. I think I did. Why did you do that? I don't know. I think just years ago, I just, like, I don't know. It was like 11 years ago as well. I joined Twitter in 2009. What were you doing in 2009?

I was doing a PhD, which I quit, because I am a dropout. Lots of people are dropouts. Yeah, woo-hoo. But it was something like, I know what it was. It was something like, oh, what's all the fuss about this then? Let's give this a go. And then my life was ruined. Oh, that's a short-examil. Little did I know. I'd opened a portal of hell. Literally. Well, the one that's still available on Twitter, which is like the newer, you know, your first one that we can get. It's just you're applying to

someone just going, oh, which I think quite aptly describes how we feel about politics now and probably for the last like 11 years. So I think you're pretty on the same stream. That is my default. I know I'm like happy now. Have you seen that meme where there's someone with a happy mask on, but behind it they're just crying with raid? Yes. Yeah, that's what I'm doing now.

Yeah, that's what we're all doing now. The second post, though, on the 25th of July 2011, it was talking to someone called Kit and Kira. And then it said, since its emergence is a political force, socialism has always had far more broader interpretations than that. So you're already just in the political discourse straight away. It's like, take the day off.

Poet. Oh, socialism. Oh, socialism. Pathetic. I was going to ask a question about, so, you know, I've watched like one documentary and about social media. And so it's informing all of my questions. So obviously, I think it is obvious.

Social media is contributing to political polarization, things getting more extreme on the right and on the left. And people sort of seeming to pick sides in a way that, I don't know, looks to me from these documentaries I'm watching, surely that it's happening a lot more now, thanks to algorithms and whatever. And you're sort of, I feel like, you know, you're often at the epicenter of the left with that and often sort of blamed for things. How do you personally feel about this kind of polarization?

And do you think we can stop it? Just a very chill-out question. Very chill-out. Yeah, I think though, I think often people look at social media's, the root of that, when actually the reason, like, in 1929, you got the Wall Street crash, you got the Great Depression and politics polarized. And Facebook started. Facebook was founded in 1933.

Not many people know that. And I just think we had a financial crash and we had austerity in people's living standards fell. And the response to that tends to be political polarization. And obviously social media amplifies that. Of course it does. But if you think about Donald Trump, you know, his votes are disproportionately older and less likely to be on Twitter.

So, you know, it's the same with Brexit. The people most likely to vote for Brexit weren't on Twitter anyway because older people are much less likely to be on Twitter. I just think, yeah, Twitter obviously, lot, people speak on Twitter in a way they wouldn't speak in generally often in real life. Like if they were on...

I mean, they sometimes will, as I've noticed, people screaming at me with MAGA hats on. But generally they don't. And I do think what happened is, you know, we have this big economic and social crisis. And then in Scotland, that led people to think, well, we should just press the eject button and go for independence. And that was the first big polarisation, yes or no, on independence.

And that divided people. And people always spoke about cybernats online and how aggressive they were. But every political movement always has people online who are like, but they're not representative of the broader movement. But yeah, I just think people's lives became harder and more difficult. people lost hope and optimism. That leads people to turn to, you know, movements offering answers to it. And the far right or the right, you know, the hard rights answer was it's because of Muslims and refugees and immigrants. Whilst the left would say, well, actually the bankers plunged you into disaster, got away with it,

and he were forced to pay the bills, should we have a more equal society? But isn't like, you know, things like a lot of the stuff that people will be voting for is because they've seen, like, you know, know, anti-Denice on Facebook has seen some sort of insane advert that makes no sense. There's been paid for by a particular political party and things like that. And that's the thing that sort of makes me very concerned about how it's the people in the middle who maybe wouldn't, like, I don't know, are now sort of becoming more extreme that you're kind of, it's quite stressful to watch sometimes. Yeah, I mean, definitely those Facebook ads, because I've like spoke to people on. doorsteps who are regurgitating, disturbing things they've seen on Facebook.

Are you like, oh, they believe that? Yeah, you're absolutely right. My only worry is, I mean, I do think there needs to be, we need to talk about it. It's just often there's this moral panic about that, the fact that there are newspapers and the daily basis saying very extreme things about Muslims, migrants, refugees, benefit claimants, trans people. Like, you don't have to rely on some dark ad on Facebook to have things which are just lies. You know, the Sun newspaper, which, you know, from Hillsborough, you know, that's fake news. What they put on the front page about Hillsborough was fake news. And it was put on the front of a newspaper read by millions of people.

And, you know, and they've done that repeatedly. You know, they did it about this claim that how many Muslims in Britain are sympathetic to ISIS and they had to apologise for it months after it, not on the front page, after all the damage is done. So I think you're right. There is online social media a big problem on Facebook. Facebook in particular, that let's not let the media on the whole. Okay, so let's go on to your worst post, which I actually think is a banger. It's not, by the way, I wasn't saying it's a worst post. I don't regret the post. I do not

regret the substance, but the execution could have been improved. I see. Okay, so it's a picture of you. You're in a bar. You're smiling. You're pointing at this girl's t-shirt who looks very excited to be in photo with you. and she says, excellent, Sean, sorry, but it says, will suck dick for socialism. And you've put as a caption, fact. And tell us why you slightly regret part of the execution here. Well, okay, so originally this actually came out. I think the reason she was so keen to post me me

is that a few days before that, there was this right-wing Republican sticker in America on a bumper car sticker type thing. And it said, socialist will suck you dry. and I was like, I shared that with and that's a promise. And that got loads of retweets. And then, so she was eluding.

So I was on the day before the election, I was in a gay bar. I was in The Glory, great queer bar in Dalston. And obviously full of queer people. And she'd worn that t-shirt to a queer bar for a very specific reason because she was like,

going to be full with, well, there'd be loads of guys who'd like to suck dick here. So, and then she was like, Owen, let's have a picture together. I was like, yeah, that's hilarious. And I pointed at it with fact in the kind of like, I will suck dick for socialism. And you know what?

I've done it for a lot less. I love it. Yeah, and I was like, maybe some hot guy will, like, message me off the back of it. Who knows? This could be great. And also maybe it all, you know, if I would, you know, if that's what it takes to get socialism,

and I'm all, yeah, fine. Wouldn't it be great if that was the answer? Wouldn't it? Yeah, I'll have a great time. Why not use my only talent in life? No, but no, it was like, it was just, so the whole thing. And then it was fine, right? It was absolutely fine.

But then anti-trans activists jumped on in it. And they were like, this is misogyny. And it's like, oh my God. Hang on, how? They're like, I'm saying that women should be subjugated into providing sexual. But that's not the context of the post. I know! I know! I know! I know! I know! It drove me mad! They were like, and some people were like, Labor lost the election because of this. Actually, can't! Imagine that's like, I was going to vote Labor, but I've seen Guardian columnist Owen Jones in a gay bar pointing to a woman wearing a...

I was a dick for social as a T-shirt. And I am voting Boris Johnson. Yeah, I mean, it was just... Yeah, they were just... Yeah, they were like, they claimed it was like this misogynistic pose. The woman is wearing it. She didn't just work. She made the T-shirt. She actually, she made,

what misogynist that woman is for making that joke t-shirt. She made, she sells them. She sells them online. She made the T-shirts. Let's wear them for every episode going forward on this podcast. I've got it in the other room. I should have worn it because she sent me one.

But she got really well out of it. She got, she got like 20,000 followers off the back of it. But what's even funny about it? I don't know if I can say it's quite explicit. Because Katie Hopkins jumped in it. I mean, it did really... Thank God.

Thank the Lord. Yeah, here we go. So she, Ruby is her t-shirt. She's called Burley Buzons on Twitter. She's really funny. She's just a, you know, very great, great politics. Katie Hopkins tweeted going, oh, you should be ashamed, you disgusting,

woman and she tweeted back the day after the election. I will forever prefer, oh my God, sorry, brace yourselves. I will forever prefer to have come on my face than blood of my hands. Oh my God. I mean, which I also, fine. I would also agree, obviously agree with. You and your party are responsible for the deaths of thousand. She got 12,000 retweets for that. So that was a ban. Oh my God. Vote her in. Do you know what? Look, we may have lost the election because of that post, but a small business had very well. Well, and the best comeback of our times. Comeback, very good pun.

But I don't know if I got any action off the back of the back of the case. I think that's great, though. I mean, maybe inadvertently you got action because people are like that. You got the best action. You got social action. Yeah, exactly. I got, yeah, certainly, certainly got a debate going. Yeah, and that's a great word.

Who needs sex when you can get a debate going? So it's a quote tweet that you did. Someone with, you know, too many numbers in their username just very kindly tweeted you some information. I'm going to buy your book, then burn it. And then you quote tweeted it. Why stop there, buy 10 copies and burn them. That'll really show me.

Yeah. I just think always monetise your trolling. Like, yeah, fine. He was inadvertently became part of basically just publicising my book, idiot. Yeah. So that was, I was like, yeah, fine, great, yeah. Always use trolling to, you know, like, turn it around and just make it, just be creative with it. Yeah.

I do love that. All press is good press. Yeah, and everyone kept, like, it became a rhyming, and they still do it and go, oh, let's buy it for toilet paper. It's like, well, fine. Yes. You're buying it, mate. It'd be great if you read some of it. That'd be nice, but I'm not going to, like, I'm not going to be devastated.

So you often do this, which I find very funny, this sort of thing, where you will, there'll be, some of you'll get and then you'll retweet it and make it very funny. And it's always nice to see. Take the sting out of it. I take the sting out of it. I was thinking though, you know, obviously a lot of, we've mentioned the chans. You've got your four chan, you've got your eight chan. Maybe you've got a 12 chan, who knows. You got your dark web. 18 chan, the worst. Yeah. Never really been on them.

Kenny Tau. And they often, obviously, want attention sometimes and want to, and they will often discuss who they are targeting and they will post if the, the target of their, abuse tweets about it, they'll post it on the forums, and then they'll be like, ah, whatever. Do you sometimes feel like, oh, I've given these people more reach than they would have had otherwise? Yeah, I thought about this, because there's one, speaking of 4chan, there's this 4chan meme, which goes back a long time,

which is genuinely believed by far right incels, which is I wrote in my first book, seems a bit off topic from my first book, which was called Chavs, the demonisation of the working class, that the reason I turned gay is I walked in on my girlfriend who was having sex. Yeah, having sex with a person of colour and this was obviously integral to their kind of racist meme. And that I'm so turned on by this sight that this turned me gay. And this is widely wild that.

No, but it's widely believed. I know it's wild. And they keep sharing it. And it keeps going around. So I have shared it before going like, this is ridiculous. but I think, yeah, I probably just made it spread full. But then I'm like, but then I'm like, you're like, yeah, it's like,

and everyone's like, well, maybe he did. Yeah, I mean, at the time, I was like, I was just, I mean, it is, I think it's quite funny. I'm not hurt by it. But yeah, I mean, they created it on 4chan and then they got me to show on Twitter. So probably they're like, ha ha, victory. But then again, there is still a significant number

of writing insoles you definitely think it happened. That's so weird. Right. So I suppose it's like a balancing act. right? So like, well, the control you get means more than, okay, fine, now a million people have seen some, like, bullshit, silly thing. They have one follower, but I suppose it's still, it doesn't, yeah, you have to kind of balance it to be like, well, this, it's worth it, essentially.

Yeah. Because you get to make something funny out of something that's, you know, shit. You know what is funny about it is that some, it's definitely true, so, but it's like, why give this circulation? And sometimes it, because it is just quite funny. Sometimes you get these people, they're like, said you're like, abuse and they're like, left a trigger than snowflakes.

And then I'll quote treat them with a guy, take the piss. And then they'll be like, that'll just put their account on protect or lock their account. You're like, that's so pathetic. Like, come on. You can't take that,

but you're giving me all the shit for all the shit I take every dozen million people. Own it. So finally, to round up, if you could give listeners, might delete later, one rule to stick to about social media, what would it be? There's one rule we all have to stick to. What would the rule be?

Oh, don't read it before you go to bed. Oh, yeah. That's good. Nothing is to be getting, you might see something that makes you angry or just rip your sleeve. Why have you done that? Don't, at least one hour before you go to bed. Do you not look at your Twitter? Do you always follow that rule or do you break that rules? Right. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. It was a pleasure. Thanks guys. What a fun. Well, Owen Jones, eh? What a great episode.

What a great lad. Indeed. You can follow Owen on Twitter and Instagram at Owen Jones 84. And look, do send some niceness his way because he gets piled on. Let's send some good vibes to Owen. You can also follow us

at Might Delete Later Pod on Instagram and at My Delete Pod on Twitter. You can also email us any guest you'd like to see in the podcast. Stevie hasn't. check the inbox but I have email us might delete later pod at gmail.com and give us a subscribe, give us a review, give us a rate, donate, it rhymes.

And go out and buy Owen's book. It's called This Land and it's out now. And remember, social media can be a brilliant place for learning more about politics and building a community. But it's also a petri dish for Nazis and online abuse. But however you feel, remember,

you might as well delete later. Bye! Thank you.