Mike Birbiglia's Working It Out - 100. Ira Glass Part 3: The Best Advice

Episode Date: June 5, 2023

Ira Glass was the first guest on Working It Out back in June 2020, and now he’s back for the 100th episode. The two friends and collaborators discuss Ira’s most famous pieces of advice for creatives, and Ira attempts to “work out” Mike’s life. Plus, a final version of Mike’s “cancer story,” which he has been working on, with Ira’s feedback, since episode 1.Please consider donating to Oxfam International

Do you ever think about the fact that your public persona is someone who's just eminently relaxed? There's something very relaxed in your presentation on stage. And although on stage the things you talk about are anxieties and things like that, so it's not just relaxed all the time, but you present as relaxed. But who you are is not relaxed. Okay, so now we're working it out, but with my life. That's the voice of Ira Glass. That's a real famous voice.

You might just know his voice. He's a very esteemed radio legend, host and producer, creator of This American Life. He's won everything. He's won at the Game of Life. He just won his 10th Peabody Award. He got a MacArthur grant. I don't even want to go into it. He got a MacArthur grant. I don't even want to go into it. There's just too many things.

This is our 100th episode of the show, and Ira was the first episode way back when, three years ago, and thank you for staying with us all this time. He is now, three years later, the 100th episode. And for good reason! He um he's someone who i've

worked with so much and who i've learned so much from like i i i can't tell you how much i've learned from him and today i kind of hold his feet to the fire on pieces of wisdom he's said over the years about writing and creating and producing that I just want to know more about. And we get into it. And then we talk about this story that I've been working on with the hope that it would be on This American Life eventually. And we'll find out today whether it is going to make it on. A couple things I want to tell you about. I just announced the London run of the show. I'm doing The Old Man and the Pool, which I have developed on this very podcast for the last three years. In addition to performing it live, The Old Man and the Pool was

on Broadway. It's going to be in the West End in the fall. Some of you will say on the West End. I don't know. I don't like the sound of that. In the West End. That's what I'm going to say in the West End in the fall. Some of you will say on the West End. I don't know. I don't like the sound of that in the West End. That's what I'm going to say. I'm sorry. It's at the Wyndham's Theatre. It's a gorgeous, gorgeous theatre. And all this is on burbiggs.com. Get tickets. It is going to be an amazing, amazing night of theatre if you're anywhere near London. And on the way there, I'm going to go to Edinburgh, which I've never been to. I've never been to Edinburgh, Scotland. I'm going to be there for six performances at the end of the Fringe Festival in August. Again, I wanted to go to Edinburgh forever, and now I finally get to go. And then this summer, I'm working out new material in

Sag Harbor, which is in Long Island, in Levittown in Long Island, in New Jersey, a whole bunch of little shows, Philadelphia. All of this is on Burbiggs.com. That's how you will be the first to know about all of these things. There's a huge, huge, hugely different thing that happened today, which is this episode that you are listening to, you can also watch on YouTube. And this is based on something that you have told all of us here at the show, the production staff of Working It Out, for about three years, we have received direct messages

and emails and comments on Instagram, please release the video. And what you don't realize, what you don't realize is how hard it is. Because we added the podcast, you know. And so then to film it properly and then edit it properly in a way that isn't bumpy, it's time intensive. And we did it for the first time. If you just go on YouTube and search Mike Birbiglia, Ira Glass, working it out, go to my YouTube channel. A big favor to me would be click subscribe.

We have never had a series of things on YouTube, and we are starting, so it would mean the world to us. Even if you just went over and checked out what it looks like, it was, the look of the episode was designed by a cinematographer named Graham Willoughby, with help also from another cinematographer earlier in the process,

a guy named Matthew Wolfe. It's been, let's just say, it's been a long, long process to make this happen and release this thing that you've been asking for for all this time, and now we have it. And it's fun, but me and Ira, the video of it is funny because it really does, like he and I have worked together

for hundreds and hundreds of hours on the movie Don't Think Twice and the movie Sleepwalk With Me and my show The New One and my show The Old Man in the Pool. And so the video kind of is an interesting fly-on-the-wall experience of what it's like to be with me and Ira. You can listen to it here. You can watch it on YouTube.

Enjoy my conversation with the great Ira Glass. So here we are, 100th episode. Is the podcast any good? Is the podcast any good? Yeah. The ones I've heard, yeah. Do you remember? I haven't heard all 100 episodes. You heard the Otsuko Akatsuka episodes?

Mm-hmm. Because you're maybe working on something with her? Mm-hmm. I've heard a bunch. Like, it's a little bit random, the ones I end up hearing. Really? Yeah. Like, why?

I'd have to look at my phone to remember. Okay, I want to know. We're at the 100th. Episode one is you. Episode 100 is you. Right. I haven't listened to those. When you came on the first episode,

the premise was that we were working out the concept of what the podcast is. And there was a funny conversation where you and I had one day where I go, do you like the podcast? And you go, yeah, I like the podcast. And then I go, am I doing anything wrong as an interviewer? Because you're a professional interviewer, and I'm just this amateur talking to people. And you go, well, it's not really an interview.

It's just you and the person talking. And you go, I know as much about you at the end as I know about the person who's technically being interviewed wait did you take that as criticism no because because to me i feel like that's actually the strength of the show is like we're hearing two people actually talk the way they would talk you know or as close as you can get it yeah you know about kind of what they're working on. I agree.

I don't know. No, that's the goal. That actually is the goal. I don't know. This whole conversation is making me feel very nervous so far because it's like, oh no, I'm a bad friend. No, no. You're a great friend.

As a matter of fact, a few minutes ago, Una gave me this. It's a friendship potion. Aw. And yeah, check it out this it's a friendship potion and yeah check it out she made that friendship potion and I said well what does it do and she goes well it helps you

try to understand your friends by putting you in their shoes to understand how they're seeing things I just want to describe what this looks like for people who are listening this is a little vial that you might give somebody a crack in how they're seeing things. I just want to describe what this looks like for people who are listening. This is a little vial that you might give somebody like crack in, I would say.

It's like an inch and a half long, a little plastic tube. And then it's filled with a pink liquid and there's glitter and there's a shell and there's a sticker on the outside that says friendship potion. And it's really adorable. Is this, do you know the potion?

Are you supposed to put it on like a perfume? Are you supposed to know the potion, are you supposed to put it on like a perfume, or are you supposed to drink it, or are you supposed to leave it? I think you're supposed to pretend to... I think you're supposed to just have it. I'm going to pretend to drink it then. Are you ready? Yeah. I just tilted back there.

Okay, now that you just took it, put yourself in my shoes. That's not hard. Let's put each other in it. Let's do the Oona challenge. Let's do the friendship potion, and I'll imagine what it's like to do your job, and you can imagine what it's like to do my job.

Okay. Do you want me to start? Okay, yeah. Okay, so I run this American life and I report on stories of people all over the country, all over the world. And I have to simultaneously report that and then edit those stories and then give notes on like 30 or different stories simultaneously every week. And every week the show has to come together

and we put it out into the universe to be heard by millions of people. And it is nonstop. That's accurate. Okay. If at a superficial level. What am I missing? You have the big strokes, actually.

Okay. Okay. And then I think for you, I think like you're just like, I mean, I know you well enough to know you're in between like five things at all times. And so, you know, you're working up new material at the cellar. You're doing the podcast. You know, like, you know, you're working up new material at the cellar. You're doing the podcast. You know, like, you know, you're writing a movie. You're like, there are meetings about things. For a long time, you were just fixing the house at the same time.

My own apartment. Yeah. Yeah. And then like a lot of people are depending on you. And Jen has your back and your brother has your back. But somehow, even though they have your back, you have a feeling all the time that it's all on you. That basically, if you stop for a day or a week, the whole house of cards falls apart. Like if you decided to just stop working for a month,

suddenly several people would be unemployed. I don't know. I can't even imagine. Wow. Your answer is so much more profound than mine. Mine is just technical. Mine is just what you do in a week. Yours is like an existential crisis. I don't know. I feel like I understand from seeing you in a way that I think is different from who you play on stage, like the pressure you put yourself under. Okay, so now we're working it out, but with my life.

In fact, I think there's a thing that's interesting, which is, I mean, this is the potion speaking, Mike. This isn't me. I just want to be clear. This is the potion speaking. It's the friendship potion speaking. Do you ever think about the fact that your public persona is someone who's just eminently relaxed. Like there's something very relaxed in your presentation on stage. And although on stage, the things you talk about are anxieties and things like that.

So it's not just relaxed all the time, but you present as relaxed. But who you are is not relaxed. And then for me, like on the radio, I'm constantly getting into these like intimate conversations with people who are complete strangers, where like they talk and I talk back to them and there's like a real intimacy to it. But like in real life,

like I definitely have people who I do that with, but I think it's much harder for me to get to that kind of like closeness. And if anything, like if you think about like what sort of person would feel the need to invent like a radio format that's built around such intimacy, it would only be somebody who has struggled with intimacy.

Do you think that's true of a comedian who does the same thing? The same thing in which way do you mean? Who has someone who has struggled with intimacy and I'm being intimate with a live audience? It's funny, I hadn't thought of it that way, but now that you say that, yeah, I do. Yeah.

One of the things that Jen said to me recently is, she goes, when your special comes out for Old Man and the Pool, you should watch it. What's that mean? Wait, I don't totally know. You know, because the show is all about living in the moment and appreciating what your life is because it could go at any second.

Oh, that's so smart. She's like, you should watch it. Oh, that's so smart. Yeah. And I said, I'm not ashamed of the fact that I'm not the living embodiment of the thesis of my show. I'm not ashamed of that. I'm deeply flawed.

I have a lot of problems. That's why I'm on stage. Yeah. To answer your question about intimacy, you guys are way closer than most couples I know. And you have more territory of things that you talk about than I think a lot of couples. What do you mean by that? I think every couple has a kind of,

there are certain ways that they interact where they actually can feel close. And for some people, it's built around certain activities, like they love playing tennis together or they love cooking together or whatever. But you guys have a lot of territories of things that you talk about that are yours, that you talk about more and better with each other than you do around other people, than you do with other people. Like when I first got to know you guys, like the way you guys would talk about movies and the number of movies you guys were watching,

it was like watching two people who were like used to living in a bubble with each other in a way that I really admired. And like, there's like a bunch of little territories. And the fact that like Jan is so involved in your work and you're so involved in her poetry, like, and obviously with Una, like there's the whole world of Una and like, I don't know, there's just like, you guys just have, you guys just have like a bunch with una like there's the whole world of una and like i don't know there's just like you guys just have you guys just have like a bunch of things like that that

um that you have like overlap and are able to connect whereas whereas you know other couples you know like there's just the ways that you find it find an easy connection with the person you love and then you know like other territories where it's just hard to find a easy connection with the person you love. And then, you know, like other territories where it's just hard to find an easy connection. And you guys just have like a big bunch of them. Yeah, I think that's true. I think that's true. I think that's one of the things that's hard about, for example, like in the new one,

I talked deeply about our marriage and on stage lately, a lot of the stuff I'm talking about is about relationships and domesticity. And I think it's hard sometimes because everybody's understanding of what a marriage should be or could be is completely different. And so you bring people these jokes. And even nine out of ten, if they're nine out of ten laughing, the one out of ten that is looking at you and going,

you're a loser. And that's not what marriage should be. It hurts. And especially when someone writes it, for God's sakes, in a publication. You're a loser. That person should leave you or whatever. You're like, Jesus.

It's a lot. But I think that there is, you do get a return on that. The nine out of 10 makes you worth it, I think. Well, you're not going to please everybody, you know. I was saying all this about my life. I didn't intend to have this be the episode where we work out Mike Birbiglia's life but you know it better than

almost as much as anyone because we're close friends what's your recommendation based on your assessment that I feel like I'm holding up everything and it could all crash down and all that stuff. I don't know, I have a recommendation.

I don't know, it's like saying, do I have a recommendation for you to change your personality to some other personality that would be hard for you to adjust or something? Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. I don't have, I'd have to ask you more questions to have a recommendation. Are you unhappy with the way it's going? No.

Then it seems like there's no recommendation needed. It just seems stressful. That's true. Yeah. What do you, so you were describing me as thinking that if I don't do all these things that everything will fall apart for all these people. I would throw that right back at you. Don't you think you have that?

Don't you think you feel like you have a staff of God knows how many people I won't even say and all these people in your life who depend on you? Don't you feel that same pressure? I don't know. I don't know. I don't feel it that way. Like the stuff that – no, my experience of it is just like, oh my God, we've got to get the show out.

What are we going to do? Like we're like, I feel like I'm in it with them. But what's the worst case scenario? When you're saying, what are we going to do? It's like, what's the worst case scenario? I mean, the worst case scenario is we just don't have material to put on the air and then we do a rerun even the worst case isn't

the world doesn't collapse but you're saying what do we do there is a sense of stakes there is a sense of urgency I've seen you under pressure we made two movies together I've seen you be stressed we did Sleepwalk With Me and Don't Think Twice together.

And there were moments in both of those edits where I was like, literally, I was like, what are we going to do? This is a debacle. Somebody, not me, spent millions of dollars on this thing. And it's a disaster. Just to be clear, a million dollars, not millions. The first one was a million, but the other one was two and a half. Yeah.

But it's like, what are we going to do? And the stakes actually are really weirdly high. Yeah. Because it's like, that's somebody's money. Yeah. Who I care about. But beyond the money, it's like you just went to the trouble to write a movie. You want it to be good.

You know, it's humiliating. Yeah. Yeah. So wait, so you're saying like, you're saying that, like, I don't, I don't know. Okay. So this is the beginning of this it's taking an unexpected turn but I feel like it's good I don't know like I'm editing this in my head and I was like

are we going to use any of this? I think we will my instinct is we will I mean usually tell me this usually what we do with the podcast we edit it out the first 10, 15 minutes. Oh, good. That happens a lot.

Do you find that with interviews? No, but I'm doing a different kind of interview. You're just getting to it. And if I'm not getting to it, I'm going to get to it pretty quickly. Yeah. So I know where I have to go, and I don't have that much time with the people and it's my job I don't know

I'm more of a machine I know where I need to go I know where I need to start it I know how I can go there's a plan and I'm going to go in with the plan what's the thing when you're interviewing people because I view you as one of the greatest interviewers of this

entire era, this generation it's like what is the thing that what's the thing people don't understand about interviewing people what's the invisibility of the strings I don't know that makes interviewing sound like it's like more than it is

I think for the kinds of interviews I'm doing, I'm doing a special genre of interview where I want people to tell me a story and then I want somebody to have some thought about like, well, what should we make of it? Yeah. And so I go in with a little map in my head,

even if I don't know the whole story of like, here's why I think there's a story. Yeah. And then I know once they get telling it, I want to be sure that each beat of the story lands. Like, you know, as they explain, like this happened and then this happened and this happened. Yeah. And then I want to be awake at some point to like, what in the world could this story mean?

And so, you know, like what makes an interview good, honestly, is just like if person who I'm interviewing really has something interesting to say. And then I feel like my job as an interviewer is just to be a normal person and act interested and excited at the parts that are interesting and exciting so they feel like they want to say it. And then the greatest weapon to make somebody say more is just to actually be interested. And that's what makes people open up. And I am actually interested, so that part isn't hard. Well, in a way, when you and I are working on stories together, whether it's for This American Life or whether it's one of our movies, you're sort of interviewing me in a certain way. You're doing dramaturgical work, which is a type of interview. Yeah, totally.

And even with my girlfriend's boyfriend, that show originated, that special originated from a story that you and I worked on together in your office, I remember it, where I was like, Ira, I was in a car accident, I was hit by a drunk driver, and I was made to pay for the drunk driver's car. And you were just like, that's just not enough of a story. And you were like, what else happened?

What was going on at that time? And you sort of squeezed out of me that Jenny and I were figuring out whether or not we're going to get married. And I didn't really believe in the idea of marriage. And then it ended up evolving into a story about the idea of feeling self-righteousness and feeling like you want to be right about something in relation to paying for a drunk driver's car and not getting married, being kind of bullheaded, so to speak, about it. And the end of the story is, in the end, I paid for the drunk driver's car and I got

married. I still don't believe in the idea of marriage, but I believe in Jenny and I've given up on the idea of being right. You and I came up with that in your office. I remember it perfectly. Yeah. In hindsight, I'm like, are you just telling your story? Is that just you? Are you just thinking about yourself being obsessed with being right? Oh, no. It's funny. I mean, maybe subconsciously, but no.

I really felt like I was, no. Like, I don't, I mean, I like being right as much as anybody else. I think that when you said it, I wouldn't feel as excited about it if it didn't resonate with me. So I was a good audience for it. I don't know, your question is a good question, but I actually think, and I'd like to yes and it, but I don't think I can.

I don't see myself in that story so much. But I think I responded to it because there's a part of me that is like that. Okay. And honestly, all I'm looking for is, how do you get from point A to point B? That's the thing I'm really thinking about. And if I see, oh, wait, this thing will give stakes to this other thing. The relationship will give stakes to the car crash.

That I understand. Most of my day is doing dramaturgy, basically, on people's real-life stories. Yeah. And so just being able to recognize, like you can like this beat to this one to this one. I have questions for you on this, your 100th podcast episode. Do you see it differently?

Do you interview differently? Do you see working in audio differently now that you've done so many of these? Yeah, I think so. I think that like, you know, Gary who's here with me and works on the show, like, he gave me a note a few months ago that was a really helpful note. And the note was, I enjoy the show more when the conversation seems to go where it goes.

the conversation seems to go where it goes. And I was like, you're absolutely right. Yeah, that's smart. And from that point on, I built the questions, because it's a group of people. It's Peter and Joe and Mabel and me and Nick and Gary. And we come up with, and Seth sometimes, we come up with questions. And what I do is I essentially assemble

two or three ways the interview could go. I have like 15, 20 questions. And usually we only get to about four questions. And it kind of goes where it goes. That seems great. Yeah. So it really is a conversation. Yeah, because I think that ultimately,

it's what you're interested in and what the other person's interested in and what you're mutually interested in is going to be what people want to listen to most. I quote you probably more than anyone in my life because people ask me for writing advice a lot. And then I just say, Ira Glass says this. What have I ever said about like, okay. So what you've taught me is this idea of you tell a story

and you give a piece of plot and then you have a feeling about that plot and then you give a little more plot then you have a feeling about that plot and then you give a little more plot and you have a feeling about that plot and that's sort of the best way to tell a story. I like that I get credit for that since that's just basically the law of, like I didn't, like that's just like the law of stories.

Like that's not even me. Then who taught you? Well, me, trial and error. Well, there you go. Then you invented it. You're like Aristotle. You're basically Aristotle of the 90s. No.

It's funny. Years ago, sometimes I tell this thing I'm about to tell you. Sometimes I tell this on stage. But it's a true story. And years ago, when I was married to Anahid, we lived across the street from the seminary on the west side. And every night I would take out our dog. And there was this guy named Joe Derbis who was a seminarian. And, you know, you see people every day.

And he had a dog. I had a dog. And, you know, you're talking. And, you know, like what do you do? What do you do? And like at some point I was like, well, I kind of invented this way to do a radio show. Like where, and it's like this, you know, it's like these stories and they're kind of funny,

but they're also like have feeling. And like, and basically the structure is like, there's plot and then an idea and then plot and an idea and plot and idea. And he's like, oh yeah, yeah. That's what, that's what they teach us in there, in the seminary. Yeah, that makes sense.

I was like, what are you talking about? He's like, that's, that's every, that's every sermon. And I was like, what are you talking about? He's like, that's every sermon. That's every sermon. And I was like, no, no, it's not. And he's like, oh yeah. He's like, basically, if you think about a sermon, you start with something that was in the news or in the congregation that week,

and then you say, here's the meaning. You tell the story of that, and then here's what this means. And then you go to some story from the Bible that relates to it, and you tell that story. And then you say, here's the lesson of that one. It's basically like story, idea, story, idea, story, idea. And I was like, and I really was like, I was like, no, I invented this. And he's like, no, no. He actually at one point said, if you look at Jesus's sermons in the Bible, if you look at Jesus's sermons in the Bible, that's the structure of his sermons.

Oh, wow. And then I went to the New Testament and sure enough, when Jesus tells a story, like the parable of the prodigal son, it's a little plot. And then he actually totally spells that. And then I went to the New Testament and like, and sure enough, like when Jesus tells a story, like the parable of the prodigal son, you know, it's a little pot. And then he actually totally spells out, here's the meaning of this story, you know? And which means that I accidentally invented something that was like old at the time of Jesus. Cause I don't know about you. I don't think of Jesus as like a structure guy. I think of him as more of a content guy. Oh, that's so funny. Is that your closer? as like a structure guy. I think of him as more of a content guy. That's so funny.

Is that your closer? Yeah. We're only 10 minutes in. That's so funny. That's funny though. It's interesting you're saying the thing about like at a certain point, you're kind of on the nose about what something is about

right like with Jesus you're saying at a certain point you kind of explain what it is yeah you have to explain like here's the meaning of this story it's funny because I feel like in so many ways as a storyteller you're always trying to avoid being on the nose but sometimes you do have to spell it out

like there was a point at which we were making the movie don't think twice it's about this group of improv provisors who they're all trying to get on snl one of them does keegan michael key's character and his girlfriend gillian jacobs and chris gethard and all these other people don't get in and the test audiences and this was before it came out and it ended up people really ended up really liking it whatever but the test audiences, and this was before it came out, and people really ended up really liking it or whatever, but the test audiences were brutal. The early cuts were brutal.

Oh, I remember. And you remember what the two women said at the one screening? Wait, which thing are you talking about? We did a screening at the Green Space at WNYC for just public radio listeners. I remember where I was hiding behind a piece of equipment in the back of the room. I'm peeking over.

And Ivor goes, what do you think of these characters? We don't like them. You go, why? Because they're losers. To this day, you and I have used they're losers as like a catch-all. But it's, you know, of course, that's what the movie's about.

It's about theoretically lovable, lovable losers. We're all losers. Relatable losers. Relatable losers. We're all losers. But then you came up with, from that, you go, we need a movie. We're in the edit with Jeffrey Richman. The editor.

The editor. And who also edited Severance. Brilliant, brilliant, wonderful editor. And you said, we need a moment where, in reshoots, where somebody says what the goddamn movie's about. where in reshoots where somebody says what the goddamn movie is and uh and and and so we came up with i think it's my line but it might have been your line the line is chris gathard goes i and we filmed this in post he goes your 20s are about hope and your 30s are about realizing how dumb it was to hope. Yeah.

And the point of the line is they get it. Yeah. Yeah. I remember also when we wrote that scene, he had like two or three other lines too, because we're like, is that the one that's going to land? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then we could pick which one was good. And I remember we tried to think, what's the setting for the scene where they should do this?

And honestly, that's one of the things that I've really liked about doing movies with you is that problem of, we know this needs to be said. And so what is the location and what's the action that would lead somebody logically to say it? And then we invented,

they're going through boxes and storage of all the stuff from their early careers. They're looking at old pictures of themselves when they were first an improv troupe and old costumes and stuff, which is so fun to invent. And then they do it. Then people build it and then it's there.

And then they're looking through the stuff. And so he has a reason to reminisce and look back and have that thought. And that's a thing that in my day job doing documentaries, you just don't get to do is be like, oh God, somebody really needs to say something smart here. And then you can just write it for them and invent a setting and things that don't exist. That was like, I love that about, about making fiction. So the other thing that you kind of famously said about writing in general and being an artist is that when you're starting out, when you're 18 or 20, all you have is your

taste and you, you, you hopefully have good taste and, but you can't possibly make the thing that you admire. And if you work hard enough, enough hours, hopefully what you're making ends up being as good as your taste. Right. And there's this gap when you're trying to make stuff and you know that it's not as good as stuff that's good. And then most people die in that gap and they just stop creating work.

And then you just have to soldier through it and just keep making work. It's the only way out. How can we continue this interview? What do you mean? You just die in the gap. Most people die in the gap? Yeah.

It's such a dark thought. But they do. Most people die in the gap? Yeah, most people quit being a creative person. They give up the guitar. They stop writing screenplays. They give up their free stand-up nights because they're like, it's just not going that great.

And they're just like, okay, yeah, they don't fight their way through it. You're absolutely right. It's true. A majority of people don't, yeah, they can't bridge the gap. Yeah. Here's a question that Mabel had on our staff, which is like, how do you know if your taste is good? You don't, but I'll tell you, God. But like, I know people whose taste isn't good, but they think it's good.

And it's like, is there hope? Or am I wrong? Maybe I'm wrong. Do you know people whose taste is bad who are actually making work and trying to make good work? I do. I feel like I know people who love that thing that you famously said, and I don't think they have great taste. And I don't think they have great taste. And I don't know. But they make things. I don't know. I mean, in the end, you're only going to make something as good as your own preferences about what's good.

There's just no changing that. So yeah. So if you have bad taste. The fact is, though, your taste evolves as you make stuff. Yeah. You learn to like more sophisticated things. When you're touring, you do a thing with Seven Things I've Learned. What's the most recent thing you've learned?

I mean, that show is sort of like just a grab bag of any story I want to tell under the title, Seven Things I've Learned. What's the most recent thing I've learned? any story I want to tell under the title, Seven Things I've Learned. What's the most recent thing I've learned? I don't have a most recent thing I've learned that I feel like I can name. I feel like I'm perpetually relearning the same things of just like, there's a certain kind of

just giving into the chaos of a story that I just find very enjoyable. I feel like some of my favorite stories are ones that when they're first pitched, I think like, there's no way that's going to work and I don't see it. Yeah. And then just cause there's something about it.

That's, that's, and, and then, and then suddenly like some, somebody will explain it away. I was like, oh my God. And I get really excited. Like there's certain things I feel like I have to relearn all the time. Like, like I feel like I'm constantly having to relearn how to, how to talk on the radio. Like I really talk. I feel like, I feel like that's always a struggle for me.

I feel like I'm constantly having to learn again. Like, oh, if I just like, just stand in and do the interview and then just try to have fun. It'll be fine. Like that'll be fine. Yeah. Like just, just do the loosest loosest, easiest, don't sweat it job. Are you guilty of the same thing on the radio that I am, which is you sound relaxed, but you're not relaxed? On the radio, I sound relaxed, but I am kind of relaxed because I know what I'm doing. In a way, it's like a nervous person who gets on stage to do stand up and that's the most calm they are

that's my answer for earlier is that true? yeah that's it it's funny because you just answered the way I should have answered earlier your persona is you're calm but you're not calm and it's like no I'm calm on stage

and it's because a place where you can finally control everything. No, that sounds like a negative thing. Like you know what you're doing and you're calm. And for me in an interview, I feel very calm. I feel very alert. And I'm thinking of like, you know, a lot of different things about how the interview is going. But yeah.

Yeah, that's right though. It's the control. Yeah. That's what it is. It's because everything in your life is out of control. You get on stage, and there's at least a simulation of control. Yeah, and it's the same thing in the studio doing an interview or out in the field doing an interview. It's just like I understand the ground rules of this interaction

with another person in a way that you never get with real life. You have another famous line, which is great stories happen. This is a weird interview. Why are you quoting me to me this whole interview? Oh, I thought it was good. Okay, okay, okay. I stand back.

Okay. I want to push you to elaborate on it. Okay, okay. Because sometimes some of these things you say, they're great. Okay, okay. And then it's a little bit like a Yogi Berra quote where you're like,

wait, can we get Yogi in here? It's not over until it's over? Talk to me about that a little bit like a Yogi Berra quote where you're like, wait, can we get Yogi in here? It's not over until it's over? Talk to me about that a little bit. You know what I mean? Okay. One of his great stories happened to those who can tell them. Yes. I didn't say that.

Are you serious? I'm quoting somebody else. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's credited to you all over the place. Yeah. For some reason, that's credited to me, but that's a really old saying.

I swear to God, there's parts of the internet where they credit me with comedy as tragedy plus time. Really? That's a good one, Mike. How do I fact check that one for them? That's not me. That's not me. I say it a lot. I live by it.

My whole comedy career is based on it. Yeah. But I didn't invent it that's really funny yeah so you didn't invent great stories happen to those

who can tell them no that's an old old saying okay okay the other one is but it's very true and I feel like

I live with the consequences of that all the time like for me since I'm building shows around interviews sometimes we get into this situation where something amazing happens to somebody who just doesn't know how to tell the story. Yeah.

Which is so incredibly frustrating as a radio producer. Oh my gosh, yes. Because radio is built around the quotes. And so if they can't tell it, you really actually, it really defies radio. Yes. You don't have an example for that, do you? You can't say, probably, because it's rude. Yeah, it would be rude. You once said, you will be stupid, you will worry your parents, you will question your own choices, your relationships, your jobs, your friends,

where you live, what you studied in college, that you went to college at all. If that happens, where you live, what you studied in college, that you went to college at all. If that happens, you're doing it right. Yes. I said that in a graduation speech. Yes. What can you say to people who listen to that and go,

that's easy for you to say, successful person? I mean, it took me a really long time before I was successful. My entire 20s, I was kind of lost. And what would I say? I would say, I don't know. That's my truth. That's all I got. I think it's true.

I think it's true. I think there are people who have programmed their life. And when they come out of high school or they come out of college, they know exactly who they need to be and want to be and that's amazing for them. But I think for all the rest of us who really see the wide variety that the world offers and the difficulty of the choice, I think that trying to choose correctly and understanding your incompetence and the things you try, like, I don't know, I think that that's just, I think that that's a way that that's a way of so many thoughtful people enter into adulthood. And like, it's hard, it's hard to pick and it's hard to get good at something and it's hard to figure out who you are if you're not gonna go in some cookie cutter format.

And if you're not the sort of like person who's innate natural confidence takes you over that hump gracefully. Like I feel like some people are so sure of themselves. Like I feel like I know a couple of people like that who were just like so sure of themselves, like that they were just who they are so easily. But most of us come from families where like, you know,

for the good or bad intentions of our parents, like we just didn't get the kind of confidence to be that. And so that's what we're left with. And I think it's a lot of us. And if other people don't have that experience, well, good for them. But like those of us who know what it is to be weak, you know, like have to say reassuring things to each other sometimes.

I found out this thing about my dad recently. My brother, Joe was talking to my dad, who's 83. And he said that, and this was a complete revelation to us. My dad, who's a doctor, went to law school, never wanted me and Joe to go into comedy at all, said, I thought for a period of time that I could write for Saturday Night Live. Really?

Yeah. Was your dad funny? I don't know. I mean, he's alive. He's alive. But when you think of your dad as a kid, was your dad funny? Like, my mom was funny, and my dad is dad is like funny-ish, but definitely like.

My dad is very dry and my mom is a great storyteller. Put those together, Ira. Similarly, your dad worked in radio-ish. Oh, my dad worked in radio-ish? Oh, my dad worked in radio when he was in college and immediately after college when he was in the army. But he stopped before I was born, in part because I was born. Wow. Because having two kids and when it's public accounting, I didn't know him as a radio person. So it wasn't like a sort of like, oh, my dad did that. Like, so I might do that. Like,

I didn't think of that as part of his identity. And if I knew it, I kind of didn't really know it in a real way until after I was already in radio. And then, and then like scrapbooks came out and stuff. Yeah. It just made me, Joe and I were talking about the idea of like, are we able to do just what our, like essentially what our parents wanted to do, but absolutely couldn't do. Oh, that's so interesting. Have you ever heard the thing that Rilke says,

how children dance to the unlived lives of their parents? Now, if you just put that on the internet, maybe somebody will attribute that to me no no me Mike Birbiglia B-I-R-B-I-G-L-I-A that's me on the phone every day B as in boy, I-R, B again

I-G-L-I-A always get it wrong don't wait till you're older or in some better job than you have now don't wait for anything don't wait till some're older or in some better job than you have now. Don't wait for anything. Don't wait till some magical idea drops in your lap. That's not where ideas come from. Go looking for an idea and it will show up.

Begin now. Yes. You say that? Yeah. No, I say that to a lot of beginners who want to make stuff, want to do creative work. Like when people ask for advice, that would be my very first advice is like, don't wait. What's the tactical, is it free writing,

journaling? Like what, start what? Start making anything. Like, I think everybody thinks like, oh, I'm going to do that tomorrow. I'm going to do that tomorrow. And I, and, and actually you don't have to wait. And like one good thing about, you know, doing radio or doing journalism is like, you don't need permission from anybody either. You don't need an institution. You can just start writing a thing. And I guess that's true for comedy too. And for any creative thing, you don't need permission.

There's downsides to a creative job, but one of the upsides is you don't need permission. And I feel like people stall and people get in their own heads. ads. Okay, this is a slow round. Can you think of a time that you were so scared you ran away? When I first lived in New York, I lived in New York for a couple of years in the 80s. And so it's pre-Giuliani New York. And I lived on the Lower East Side at the corner of Rivington and Allen. And it was an illegal sublet that I paid $145 a month for. And there was a bathtub in the middle of the living room. And the whole place smelled a little bit of like rat poison and it was tiny and barely any light, but I could afford it.

And I was 23 or 24. And I remember my sister, Randy, side note, worked on Wall Street for Goldman Sachs and lived in a three bedroom apartment on the Upper West Side. And I remember thinking she can never see this place. And I also remember going to her apartment and thinking like, not only could I not afford

this apartment, but there's literally not an object in this apartment that I could afford. Wow. You know, like that plate. I couldn't buy that plate, like that glass. Anyway, so this is the Lower East Side and it's pre-gentrification Lower East Side. And in fact, I remember at night, I would get off the F train at 2nd Avenue and come out, and I would have to walk south three blocks.

And literally, I was like a suburban kid. Literally, there were prostitutes in short shorts and halter tops. And there were crack vials all over the street. And there's projects right there. You know, it's like public housing right there. And like, and I remember thinking like when I first was there, I was like, oh my God, it's just like in the movies. It's like, I feel like the prostitutes were so on the nose. I was like, this is so exactly.

And I remember thinking to myself, like, I know it's not cool to run, but I'm just going to run home. And so that's what I would do. Like every day? Every night. Wow. I feel like people are often surprised when you say that you're a fan of Howard Stern because you're like a king in public radio

and people don't equate Howard Stern in public radio as being even in the same universe almost. Right. Do you think there's a similarity between what you do and what he does? Oh, that's such an interesting question. There is in the following way. Like I haven't heard Howard in years,

but I used to be like a regular daily listener back when Artie was on the show, which I think it was like the heyday of the Howard Stern show. And like Howard Stern really, really understands radio. And there's an intimacy and realness to the conversations that happen on that show that are the essence of what good radio is. And he really understands how to make that happen. And then he just invented a bunch of stuff

that anybody who understands what radio is really, I think you have to admire. You know, where, you know, the format of that show that he invented is that he's got a set of characters. In a way, it's like an old... I remember an older friend of mine who was a regular listener compared to the Jack Benny show, which is like the oldest TV variety show.

He says, because you've got a set of characters and you know each of the characters. You've got Jackie and you've got Artie and you've got Robin and you've got Howard and you've got the Whack Pack. Stuttering John, yeah. Yeah, Stuttering John. And you have feelings Artie, and you've got Robin, and you've got Howard, and you've got the Whack Pack. Stuttering John, yeah. Yeah, Stuttering John. And you have feelings about each of them. And then the game of the show is that he basically invents things for all of them to react to.

Yeah. Hour after hour after hour. Yeah. And then you just get to see their personalities come out. And that's really good radio. Yeah. And then also, he's really like one of the most amazing interviewers alive. He gets stuff out of people you can't imagine.

And because he has the whole group, there's a kind of peer pressure thing that he can work that's really good. And then he's just interesting. It's funny because I remember listening to the radio and just thinking, like, the parts where he would have, like, a stripper come on were always, like, in a way, like, the least interesting thing. I remember thinking, like, there's a woman taking off her clothes and, like, that's not even interesting compared to everything else they do. Yeah. And then, but that was, like, but also it's, like, understanding an audience, too, and being, like, well, let's just do a thing. Yeah. That'll just seem like, you know, anyway.

It's a lot of trial and error too. There's a lot of trial and error. Yeah, I just really think he understands how to get a group interaction working and he understands the emotional currents that are happening between people and knows how to make that funny. Like he just invented a thing.

And you've never talked to him? I don't think I want to make that funny. He just invented a thing. And you've never talked to him? I don't think I want to talk to him. I don't feel like he'd have anything to say to me. I remember I wrote an article about him in the New York Times Magazine years and years ago, talking about how great he is. And then he talked about it on his show. Yeah, I heard him talk about it.

And it was clear he had no idea who I was. Yeah, totally. Which is fine. Like, I didn't expect him to. He was like, this guy Ira Glass. Yeah. I don't know who he is. I don't know who this guy is, but this guy loves me.

Yeah. It was pretty much, yeah. Had a real bravado to it. Yeah, which is fine. It has his bravado. Yeah, yeah. What's a song that makes you cry? I mean, this is like a really embarrassing thing

to say out loud in front of other people, I think, but it's a song from a Broadway show. It's Sarah Bareilles' song from Waitress, Used to Be Mine. And even when you see people cover it on YouTube, it still gets to me. Like the point of view in the song. Like she's looking at herself

or the character is looking at herself and saying like most days I don't recognize me and I'm not anything like I used to be. And she's talking about herself. Like she's imperfect, but she tries. She's good, but she lies. She's hard on herself. She's broken and won't ask for help. She's messy, but she's kind. She's lonely most but she tries. She's good, but she lies. She's hard on herself. She's broken and won't ask for help.

She's messy, but she's kind. She's lonely most of the time. You know what I mean? And just like the whole thing has that point of view of like looking at herself as a broken person. That's beautiful. I love that song. Can you remember something you got away with

when you were a kid? Did something wrong? Stole something? Broke something? Got away with it you were a kid? Did something wrong? Stole something? Broke something? Got away with it? That is so not what my childhood was. My childhood was so the opposite of that. I was such a rules follower.

I wouldn't cut Hebrew school, you know what I mean? Or school. When I've grown up, I've met people who would cut school. Just the thought of cutting school, it's as if you would ask me to take a knife and murder somebody. Like there was no stealing. There was no. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah. Wow. What a rules follower you were. I remember when I was in middle school, when I and my friends were making movies, making Super 8 movies, we did a film called Diary of a Mad School Teacher that like had, you know, we had scenes that were an entire classroom where the classroom would go crazy.

And I remember I stole my dad's razor, not understanding how a razor works. So like somebody, some girl could be shaving her legs in class as part of like a wide panning shot across the classroom. And I remember, and then I didn't understand that you should take out the razor blade.

Like she cut herself, Susan Hankin cut herself on the razor blade. I didn't know that was the thing. But anyway, my dad, and then I forgot to bring it back. And my dad was just like, what happened to my razor? Like that was an act of theft I did.

You're a lightweight. Yeah. I mean, you do worse things as a grownup. Oh, for sure. Absolutely. I've been to plays with you where it's you, me, and Jenny. And you stand up after the lights come up and you go, well, that didn't work. But it's true.

And you're literally saying it out loud. Well, it's not like I work for the theater. I am a man of the theater. These people know me. I can't even be with the person who says that didn't work. Well, we don't know anybody in fucking the Tom Stoppard, Leopold Stott.

Like, we don't know anybody in that play. That's not the show. I loved that show, but we did go to that show recently. It had a couple of scenes that were good, but whatever. Good actors, good actors. I'm just saying that

nobody cares if I don't like a show. I don't know. Do people ever... Am I the only person in your life who calls you out on that? Just vocalizing opinions like that we're in a theater I can have an opinion I'm saying are you

surrounding yourself with people other than me who don't call you on that has anyone else pointed that out to you yeah oh this is what I really want to ask you pointed that out to you? Yeah. Oh, this is what I really wanted to ask you. What's your favorite joke joke?

A kid's joke. Oh, a kid's joke? It's funny, I don't know many kids' jokes. I can think of this joke. Why is seven... Why is eight afraid of seven? Seven, eight, nine. I mean- Yeah, classic. That's all I got. I tell that one to Una all the time.

Wait, wait. I have actually a counter joke to that. I have a yes to that. Yeah, yeah. Like, can we talk about how the fight 789 Seven's a murderer That's like my observational comedy version Child joke There's a joke that It's a murderer on the loose, his name's Seven

We're laughing about it There's a joke that Tammy Sager told years ago That I think is like a perfect joke But it's anti-semitic The joke is Tommy Sager told years ago that I think is like a perfect joke. But it's anti-Semitic. The joke is, what did the Jewish pedophile say? Hey, kid, easy on the candy. Oh, my God.

It's so dark. Well, she's Jewish and I'm Jewish so we can tell that joke my god my laughter indicates nothing so I've had you on the show three times this is the third time you're taking out your notebook to take notes. I am.

And I've told versions of this cancer story. And I think we've arrived at something that is pretty good for this American life. And I'm just going to do it from memory. In the past, I've read it, but I'll just do it from memory because I feel like you'll get the idea of the in-between. Okay. So when I was 20, I was driving home from college for Christmas break, and I'd pull over to rest up to pee, and there was blood in my pee.

And it was a very specific type of blood. The moment it would hit the water, it would explode like fireworks. Congratulations. And it was particularly demoralizing because sometimes when I'm on a road trip, I'll have sort of a water drinking contest with myself to see how clear I can make my pee. You know, I'll drink a ton of water. My pee will be clear and I'll be like, yes. So when it was fireworks, I was like, ah, I lost big time. I get home late at night. I wake up my parents.

I tell them what happened. My dad's a doctor. My mom's a nurse. And so they know bloody fireworks are not a great sign. My dad takes me first thing in the morning to see a urologist friend of his. And he asked me to take my pants down. And I start chiming in with my own theories because I find doctors enjoy that when you view the medical visit as sort of a collab.

I said to my urologist, and I can never unsay this, I said, is it possible that the blood is from me masturbating too often? That's something I said out loud to my dad's friend. Based on his reaction, if a urology drinking game exists, I think that might be the phrase that pays because he was entirely unfazed by this question. He goes, no, that's not it. And then he pounded a tumbler of whiskey from behind his desk. And he said, but I am worried about the blood. He goes, I'm going to have you come in to the hospital tomorrow morning and put you under anesthesia for a cystoscopy. I didn't know what this meant. It's when they take a camera and they stick it through your penis to look into your bladder. You're probably thinking, Mike,

camera can't fit through a penis. Good news and bad news on that front. Good news is it can. Bad news is the same as the good news. Can we pause? What is this part of the piece from? Is this from the recent show or is it from an older show? It is from the recent show,

but then it goes in a different direction than where I take this story. All right, good. Because I know I've heard this many times. It's still funny. Yes. So next morning I wake up. It's 5.30 a.m. My mom drives me to the hospital. I'm so nervous. I'm anxious. I'm lying in the hospital gurney. They put the IV in. I'm shivering. I fall asleep. the IV and I'm shivering. I fall asleep. And while I'm under, they find something with the scope. They said they're going to keep me under longer so that they can take it out. So as I'm coming to, I'm high on the drugs and I'm someone who's not very good at getting high.

I'm the person, if you're smoking pot with your friends, I'm'm someone who's not very good at getting high. Like I'm the person, if you're smoking pot with your friends is I'm the guy who's like, do you guys hate me? You know, like who's at the door? Who's at the door? Who's at the door? Why is my heart hurt? Is that rickets? You know? And, uh, and, and I was high with my mom, which is not the first time that I've been high with my mom, but it was the first time she knew. And so I wake up and they explain they found something in my bladder. It could be cancer. They don't know. They're going to do a biopsy. They should know in a few days. So I go home with my parents and I'm in the kitchen with my parents and my mom says, I think it'll be okay. And my dad says, you don't know that. They were sort of the good cop, bad cop of cancer. go, oh, as I was coming to from the drugs, the nurse told me that while I was on the drugs,

I thought that she, the nurse, was my mom. And I told her, mom, I love you. And my dad goes, she should not be telling you that. Which means not only does my dad not tell me he loves me, but he's very discouraging of other people even relaying it. So I went up into my bedroom in my parents' house and I was there for five days and I didn't talk to anybody. I mean, this is something I never thought would happen in my life. Because I'm someone who talks quite a bit. You know, I'm talking,

I'm doing, imagine room full of people. I gathered you here for this. But for those few days, I thought I was going to die. I mean, it just silenced me. So the biopsy comes back a few days later. It turns out it was cancer. It was a malignant tumor in my bladder. I was very lucky. They caught it very early. So they decided they weren't going to do chemo or radiation because maybe it was an anomaly. And maybe it was because I go for a regular schistoscopy. It hasn't come back to this day. But that week when I saw the urologist, he actually gave me the pathology report, a printout. This was the 90s. And it said all of the things about the tumor that they had taken out and the

size of it and the margins, all that stuff. And he said, you're so, you're very lucky that there were symptoms, you know, not, not everybody, not everybody gets symptoms. Everybody gets blood in their pee. And if you're ever feeling down, just take this out and remind you of how lucky you are. And I feel like we all, we all talk about stuff like this, right? We always talk about how we should all feel so much gratitude for life itself and that we're able to even have this moment together right now, you know? And I actually have a physical reminder

of that precise thing. I have a thing that I can hold in my hand to remind me of how lucky I am. And I never really look at it. That's it. Wow. The ending really lands an ending. Okay. All right. Well, structurally, it's very solid. Like the main things that I notice are, like right now the most laughs you're getting, like the most actual jokes of the stuff that's in the show.

Yeah, sure. Like when he- The camera through your penis. Right, all that stuff. The good news and the bad news. At the beginning, I feel like it might be, right now you pee and then you see the fireworks and you say it's demoralizing because I have this water drinking contest.

And I think that's in the wrong order. I think the bit should start with, when I'm in the car, I have a water drinking contest. As a start. That's the start. And then'm in the car, I have a water drinking contest. As a start. That's the start. And then you go to see if you won the water drinking contest and then that's when you see the fireworks. So in other words, would you say even before when I was 20,

I was driving home from college, like would you open with like an observation? Like sometimes when I go on road trips, I'll do this thing where I have a water drinking contest with myself to see how clear I can make my pee. Would you open with that? I would. That's interesting.

That's a good idea. It's worth trying, certainly. But I feel like somehow we've got to figure out a way to make that a little funnier. Like there needs to be a, like I feel like it's- It does pretty well with the crowd. And I think it's relatable.

I think it's a thing that we've all maybe done a variation on and we've never heard it vocalized. But I wonder if like you want to sell that even more to sell that joke more that you would come in and you could say like, I mean, this is really a hacky version of it, but like on a long road trip, people would do different things to stay awake. I'm sure you all have things that you do. So people open the window and sing with the radio. So you can do this. But I do.

What I did when I was in my twenties. Yeah, no, that's nice. Like, you know what I mean? Like, and then I have one more thought about the beginning. You could also lead with something that indicates that you're gonna die. Like something that indicates that like, sometimes you get really bad news in a form.

I don't know. I don't think it's a strong thing though. Like there could be something at the very top that would throw stakes onto the whole thing. So we know we're listening for like some fucking big bullshit is going to go down. But actually, I think with this piece, you don't need it and it's going to fuck things up. So nevermind.

Okay. Okay. All right. So that's one thing I noticed is that like structurally that didn't seem like as pure as it could be. And then you're pretty solid through the visit to the urologist. And then after the guy says it could be cancer, that's like a big emotional moment. And later you're going to be really sad about it. But I actually think that you should

have a feeling about it right then. And I feel like that's a really big pot turn to not react at all to. Instead, your next line is like, I go home with my parents and then we're in the kitchen. Your dad is saying this. But I think that whole scene is going to play better if we know that you're freaked out. And I feel like it would be good if we could invent some sort of analogy or something where you would say to the audience,

to understand just how freaked out I was in that moment. And then we would think of some line to go there or just something. It would be good if it could be a double duty because actually you don't have a laugh for a little while. And like, I think you should either play the emotional moment or there should be a joke or ideally there would be both there.

But I think definitely you want to react. It's weird that you don't react. I think that the real feeling that I had, and I think I've had this a handful of times in my life. I think I had this when I was hit by the drunk driver in the story we worked on together for your radio show. Like when things are so surreal in your life and it's scary and life-threatening, surreal in your life and it's scary and life-threatening, I think there's just a dissociation sometimes,

at least for me. That would be totally a great thing to say. That would be a totally great thing to say. And then where do you go? I don't know. I mean, I just, you mean, where do I go with saying that observation? No.

When you dissociate. Oh, when you dissociate, where do you go? I guess I'm just saying, can that set up? I think that seems really true and real. But then I wonder if there's a version where the next sentence you say is like, and so for me, at that moment, I'm very far away. I'm looking down on the room and he's just like a Muppet. Right.

Like, you know, like, like, like, it's like watching Grover give me, I mean, every joke I'm saying is terrible. Do you know what I mean? Like, yeah, yeah. Like, again, if we could think of a line that would be about how dissociated you are. I wonder if this is, if it's something in this universe.

I've written jokes in this space before, like in the Bill Hader episode, I think I told a joke that was like this, which is like, sometimes in your life, things get so strange. You go from being in the movie to watching the movie. Yeah, exactly. Like, wow, this movie's sad. That's good. That's good. That totally would work. Have you used that on stage? No, I've never done that. Oh, that's really good. While this movie's sad is the punchline. That's great. That's perfect.

This movie's sad because you don't even... That's perfect. That's so good. Because you don't even... It's not even sad when you're living it because you can't grasp the gravity of it. You don't even need to say that. No, I know.

But yeah, I love that. I think that's going to sell. And also, I think that's a good joke. Okay, I'll try it with an audience. And then you go home with your parents and in the kitchen. And then I feel like I've asked for this in other versions. I feel like you're rushing too much. With the parents.

Yeah, there should at least be one more back and forth. Okay. And then... The parents scene is, it's definitely progressed a lot since you and I started with it, like a couple of years ago on the show, three years ago.

Because we started filling it in with memories from my parents. But you're feeling like it needs one more beat with the parents. I just think it's a funnier setup than you're using. I just feel like there's something there that you're not mining. And I think we're not totally explaining it too.

Like your mom is like, I think it'll be okay. And then I don't think, I mean, in this performance, you kind of rushed through. I mean, I know with a real audience you wouldn't, but like, you know, you don't know that. Like, that's a really funny thing to't, but you don't know that. That's a really funny thing to say. It is as well.

And then I think there's just space to say something more interesting after that. First of all, they could go back and forth again. Like your mom could try to be like, what I'm saying is though, Mike's so young and usually these things are fine. Right. And then I could imagine a version where you even would say to the audience,

like, my dad has to deliver a lot of bad news to people, and he views it as a badge of honor not to sugarcoat. And he views it as a badge of honor not to sugarcoat. And so even if it's my kid, and my dad cares about that more than he cares about me. Oh my gosh, yeah. I just think that there's like, I mean, I don't know. If it's not interesting to you, you shouldn't run down that road. But I find that dynamic is really rich.

You have three characters on stage at that point, and you should just do more with them. I feel like you're kind of wasting it. No, I get what you're saying. And I have to say, having a child now and knowing what that would feel like to find out news like that about my child would be, I mean, it's unspeakable.

I mean, that would be my pitches that they'd have one more go around of your mom says, like when she just says to you, don't listen to him, you know how he is and like gives you a hug and like, you're gonna be fine. And your dad gets even madder. And like, and you say, and then you would explain it to us. Like, so we're adding two beats,

one more round between them. And then you, my pitch is that then you would explain it to us. So we're adding two beats, one more round between them. And then my pitch is that then you would explain, just so you don't think he's crazy, my dad operates on people's brains and has to deliver a lot of bad news. And a bad doctor doesn't tell you the truth. And he's had to deliver a lot of bad news. And he takes it as a point of pride that he doesn't bullshit people. And that principle is more important to him than me.

Do you know what I mean? That's the sell. That's funny. But I could also sort of build on that and say, like the dissociation thing we're talking about, we can point out in relation to my parents. I'm a parent now and I know that

if that was my child, I would disassociate from it. I would be watching or I would say I would be in the movie. You have to realize my parents, they're in the movie. I'm still watching the movie. Maybe something like that.

It could be the kicker to that's more important to him than me. And of course, at the time, I'm watching this. I'm not in the movie. I'm just watching, thinking, those parents are not very good. Oh, that's interesting. I like that. That seems nice. Those parents are not, you know, whatever.

Something in that universe seems good yeah like you're still watching the movie you're just saying sort of like scene paint and find more jokes in the universe of the family dynamic yeah and i'm specifically the overall yeah and i feel like you could do anything i'm pitching you know you have the beat that you have where he says her thing his thing she says her she says her thing he says his thing i'm saying just do one more round she says something he says something and her thing could be as simple as you know how he is of course you're going to be fine yeah he gets madder and then my pitch is like you explain him yeah so beat one is like you know another

round between them beat two is you explain why he says this. Yeah. Leading to, if you like this joke, but if you don't, then don't. Yeah. Of course, like, you know, like that's more important to him than me. And then next beat, the third beat would be you talking about like,

of course I'm not in the movie. Like I'm still just watching the movie. Right. And then some thought about that. And then go to the like, you telling your mom the thing. This actually speaks to something that I'll talk about in a second but it's like i think what i'll probably do with this is i'll take this mishmash of like ideas of expanding this area and also kind of improvise

on stage and sort of see what's there oh that seems fun in the space that'll be just like i know i know i've been touring lately i did dc Providence. I've been doing small rooms. I'm doing like a bunch of stuff in New Jersey and Philadelphia coming up. And like what I'm finding is I don't know what my next hour is about. Like I don't, I literally don't know. And sometimes I'll just go up with something like that where it's like a half an idea that is a dissociation concept. And I'll just be like, what happens if I start talking about this? And when I'm put on the spot of like, come up with something

that works, my brain kind of configures something. And sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, but the experiment of it feels very alive. That seems great. So I'll try that. Again, if you go this route of explaining, here's why my dad said that,

he cares about that principle more than he cares about me, you could call back to that after, she should not be telling you that. And you could just say, now just understand, the reason why he's saying that is because a nurse is not supposed to whatever, and he cares about that principle,

a very valid principle, and he cares about that principle more than he cares about me. You could just totally call back to that. And then all this stuff, the biopsy comes back, you're lucky, blah, blah, blah. The only thing I would say in what to do is like, and I know you're just like freestyling here, is when he says you're so lucky, I remember in the original pitch,

he said something like the odds of us catching this. He gave a number. In this telling, and I know you're just freestyling, it just has to seem very unlikely that they would have caught it. We almost never catch this. The statistical probability of it's so low. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Of them catching it that early.

And getting all of it and then not having to do chemo and radiation it's true that seems great that's great feedback so how close are we do you think to that story being good enough or strong enough for your show oh pretty close

it's got a sound structure it's got an ending it's got a beginning now it's just filling out potential. That's a huge victory for both me and the listeners. Why is that? We've been on this journey together, 100 episodes. That seems like a good place to end.

Let's end it there. The final thing we do is working out for a cause. What's an organization that you like that's a nonprofit? I mean, the charity that I've been giving to the longest, that I started giving money to when I was in my 20s, is Oxfam, Oxfam America, which does aid work around the world. Well, we're going to give to Oxfam.

We're going to link to them in the show notes. I'm going to contribute. We're going to encourage the listeners to contribute. This is the 100th episode. You were the first episode. You're the 100th episode. Hopefully, you'll be the 200th episode. In shahwa. Let's hope. Thank you, Ira. And if you ever feel like I'm not grateful enough for all that you have taught me, call me and I will talk your ear off for an hour about how grateful I am.

There's like, I, I, I sing your praises far and wide. And I, I, if I hope that I'm being grateful enough. Well, that's very nice. I don't know. I just did. It's like, we have a nice time working together. It seems fine. All right.

Stop there. Working it out. Cause it's not done. time working together. It seems fine. Alright, stop there. That's going to do it for our 100th episode of Working It Out. I can't believe it. 100 episodes. I think all of us who work on the show, Peter and Joe and Gary and Mabel and Nick and Kate and all these folks are really amazed that this show has become what it is. And it is with you.

It is with you, the listeners, that we've been able to make this thing that we are very proud of and we think is very specific. If you're enjoying it, share it with friends. Send this episode along to a friend. Write a review on Apple Podcasts. Our producers are working it out, or myself, along with Peter Salamone and Joseph Birbiglia, associate producer Mabel Lewis,

consulting producer Seth Barish, assistant producers Gary Simons and Lucy Jones, audio recording by J.N. Wang. Sound Mix by Kate Balinski. I want to thank a few other folks who have helped us out with tech and audio and video over the past year. Jenny Liu, Mary Louise Sparrow, Chuck Staten, Graham Willoughby, Matthew Wolfe, who I mentioned,

who did a bunch of cinematography stuff. That's really cool. Thanks so much to all those folks. Special thanks to Marissa Hurwitz and Josh Upfall, David Raphael and Nina Quick. My consigliere is Mike Berkowitz. Special thanks to Jack Antonoff and Bleacher's Further Music. I just saw Jack at the Taylor Swift concerts the other night

play Getaway Car with Taylor in front of 80,000 people at MetLife Stadium. And in his free time, he does the music for this show. It's two very similar activities. You can catch bleachers, wherever you can catch bleachers, follow them on Instagram, follow Jack. What an amazing live band they are.

Special thanks to my wife, the poet J-Hope Stein. Little Astronaut is in bookstores now. She actually just released another book called We Typed Our Words Into the Machine. It is a gorgeous little signed chapbook that you can get through her Instagram, which is at Jhopestein. I couldn't recommend that book more highly. It's gorgeous, gorgeous book. Special thanks, as always, to our daughter, Una,

who built the original radio fort made of pillows. Thanks most of all to you who are listening. If you're enjoying the show, here's the new call to action. Go on the Burbiggs YouTube channel, click subscribe, and then underneath this episode with Ira in the comments, just write how many episodes you've listened to, maybe what your favorite episode is, and so other people will know where to begin. And write if you are a working it out completist. I'm actually curious, are there any 100 episode listeners? And while you're at it, just write,

I dedicate this episode to all my enemies. We'll see you next time, everybody.