Mike Birbiglia's Working It Out - 103. Liz Kingsman: The London Comedy Exchange Program

Episode Date: July 17, 2023

British comedy sensation Liz Kingsman has brought her acclaimed show ‘One Woman Show’ from London’s West End to New York City, just as Mike is preparing to bring ‘The Old Man and the Pool’ to the West End. Mike and Liz discuss parody vs. earnestness in comedy, why cotton candy is sometimes called fairy floss, and how Liz manages to be funny despite her perfect Australian childhood.Please consider donating to the Wildfowl & Wetlands Trust: https://www.wwt.org.uk/

Talking to you is very different from talking to a lot of people in the sense that like, like you so definitively just do not want to be personal. Are you getting a real guard up feeling? It's not guard. It doesn't, no, you're, you're, you're shooting straight. You're saying exactly how you feel about it. So that's not guard. Yeah.

Yes, true. My guard is down about the fact that my guard is up. Yeah. That's what it is. That is the voice of the great Liz Kingsman. This is a very unique episode today. It's almost like an exchange program

between London and America of solo shows. Liz Kingsman has a hit one-woman show that was nominated for an Olivier Award. It was in the West End. It was a huge hit.

Now it came to America. It runs through August 11th at Greenwich House, which is, that's actually where, years ago you might have seen me perform My Girlfriend's Boyfriend for, I think, almost six months.

It's a fantastic theater. You should really try to go. Liz's show is fantastic. And we'll get into this today. But basically, her show, without giving it away, is kind of a deconstruction of solo shows. It's sort of a parody of sorts. I don't want to say much more than that. We talk a lot about it.

It's one of the first times we've ever talked on the show about this idea of how frustrating it can be because she doesn't like doing a lot of interviews. How frustrating it can be that you make something, whether it's a painting or a comedy show or whatever it is, and then you have to sell it to people

and convince people, you should come to this thing, which is sometimes challenging. But we have a really great talk. I'm doing a few shows this summer where I work out new material. I'm in Levittown, New York, which is on Long Island on July 21 and 22.

I'm at the Bay Street Theater. I just added a second and final show in Sag Harbor, which is in the Hamptons. It's gorgeous. Just a gorgeous theater that's literally like right on the water. We just added a 9.30 show

July 29th. I'm in New Brunswick, New Jersey August 3rd through 5th. It's a great little club there working out new material. And then I'm doing The Old Man and the Pool, which we talk about today

at Edinburgh Fringe for the first time, August 22 through 27. And then I'm at the Wyndham, September 12 through October 7, four weeks only, 30 performances. And then stay tuned for some announcements on burbigs.com. Liz Kingsman's show is fantastic.

We have a really fun conversation today. We do acknowledge that the director of her show recently died, Adam Brace. He was a brilliant guy, and he was a wonderful person. So when we reference Adam, that's the Adam that we're speaking of. He also directed Alex Edelman's show, which is currently on Broadway,

which is called Just For Us. I hope you enjoy my conversation with the great Liz Kingsman. How do you explain your show? And I know this is an annoying question. Oh, sure. How do you explain it? Yeah, no, I don't.

Okay. Do you want me to explain it um yeah could you do my elevator pitch for me because i don't have one also i'm like the marketing team's like worst nightmare because they're like we do need to explain to people what this is i'm like oh i find it funnier if we never if we don't right never tell people right but it's theater spoof, effectively. Yeah, and it's also like a parody of solo shows that in the process of being a parody becomes a type of solo show with a heart.

I hope that's not a spoiler. No, I don't think it has any heart, but I like that you think it does. I was fooled by the show. Okay. Yeah, yeah. I've made fools of everyone. I don't think it has any substance or heart.

I think it's very stupid and dumb. But I have found here the audience is buying into the quote-unquote heart more than they do back home. I think in the UK, everyone's so cynical and our default communication is like bits and sarcasm. And whereas here, people are more earnest. People are more earnest. And so when I do the earnest thing, they're like,

oh, of course, no, it's the earnest bit now. And whereas in the UK, the audience were like, this is a joke right she's not this isn't real interesting yeah and it isn't i got choked up during the real part i love that you're telling me that you don't feel the part about saying that you're jealous of people who don't earn as solo shows uh it the words are real so so we made sure everything I said was real. Oh, the words are real. Yeah. So the words are technically true, but I don't believe them with any kind of, they're hollow, if you know what I mean.

In the sense that you don't, on a day-to-day basis, you don't feel jealousy towards these people? No. You really don't? No, because I felt envy that they'd made something, that these people had gone out and they'd created something and it had gone well for them. And I was like, that's envy-making. Anyone completing any project is enviable.

So I was definitely envious of that. But I wasn't envious of the idea that they could be sincere and earnest on stage because I have no desire to put myself envious of that. But I wasn't envious of the idea that they could be sincere and earnest on stage because I have no desire to put myself out there like that. Oh, my gosh. Wow. Like, I am just interested in stupid gags. Wow. Yeah.

This is huge. This is huge breaking news. But perhaps on the night you saw it, because sometimes it has... It was the opening night. It was the opening night. So maybe it was emotion in the room already. There were emotions there for other reasons. So I think maybe, and I can feel when they're like in the room

and I'm like, oh, I'll try and use it. But it's all so cynical. I'm like, if I have a really tired day or like I remember one day when I did the show in Australia, I had a really like deep conversation with my mom and it had sort of like put me in a weird place. And then that night I was just like crying on stage. Yeah. Yes, this is great. This is great. It was all nonsense. Oh my God. But maybe acting is just nonsense. And so what I'm describing is what other actors do all

the time. I don't know. I'm going to unpack this more because I can't get over it. I missed my therapy session this morning. So this would be really great for me. Okay, good. So there's a moment in the show where you say, this is the moment in the solo show where someone stops and says something that's true about them, that's real. Yeah, something from the heart. Something from the heart. And you say a thing basically that you're jealous of people who do shows like this. Like, for example, like one of the shows you're parodying possibly

is Phoebe Waller-Bridge's Fleabag, but then I read somewhere that you didn't think of it that way. I hadn't seen it until I'd finished the script. Yeah, yeah. I was parodying the feeding frenzy around that show. Fascinating. But I hadn't, I purposefully hadn't gone to see it. Interesting.

Have you, when she saw your show, she probably saw your show. I don't think she has. she probably saw your show i don't think she i don't know i don't think she has i think someone would have told me but we have you know like yeah i i'm sorry to dwell on this but this no i'm shocked by this idea that you're not sincerely oh i've really like come out the gates and... No, because I so believed it. Oh, I'm sorry. No, no, it's okay. I'm fascinated by it. I'm like, okay, if it's not that,

if you don't envy people who make autobiographical shows... I don't envy... What's the impetus for doing the show? Yeah. Because that's what I came away with. Oh, that's why she made the show. Right. Well, I don't envy them.

I respect them and I admire what you do. I just don't want myself on stage like that. I want inception. I want to be at the bottom of the inception, the film inception. Yes. I don't want to be myself on stage, which is why I struggle being asked to publicize the show because I'm like, okay, but that would involve me having to talk as myself.

As yourself, yeah. Which is a real struggle for me. So, yeah, so I'm not jealous of them I think I think two things happened when I came up with the show which was that there were just so many one-woman shows like there were so many suddenly like you just couldn't move for them and I spent a lot of time at festivals and fringe you know. And it felt like a lot of people were making them and they were going really well. People were really enjoying them.

I'd seen a bunch of them. And I didn't hugely relate to the characters in them. So that was happening. And then on the other hand, it felt like there was this kind of trend in comedy to be autobiographical. Yeah. And if you don't want to use your own stories as currency, but you want to work in comedy, then where were we left?

Like falling over jokes or like, you know, like it felt like goofy, stupid stuff was not trendy at the time. Pratfalls and impressions. Yeah, pratfalls. They weren't hot back then. And so it wasn't intentional, like, I'm going to say something about this. It was just, I guess, you know, when you make something,

you're not making it in a vacuum. So in retrospect, I'm looking at that going, that was the landscape that I made the show in. But at the time, it was like, oh, I want to make a stupid joke version of a very serious, profound theater piece. Okay. You know, it was like it came

from the instinct of wanting to do something really stupid talking to you is very different from talking to a lot of people in the sense that like like you so definitively just do not want to be personal are you getting a real guard up uh feeling it's not guard it doesn't know you're you're you're shooting straight you're saying exactly how you feel up feeling. It's not guard. It doesn't, no, you're shooting straight. You're saying exactly how you feel about it. So that's not guard. Yeah, yes, true. My guard is down about the fact that my guard is up.

Yeah. That's what it is. By the way, we can talk about Adam or not talk about Adam. Yeah. Except you. I think I'll just start crying. Yeah, we won't. I mean, unless you want to cry. No, I mean, I'll probably reference,

it's impossible to talk about the inception of this show without talking about him so he'll come up but for the listeners who are confused right now uh adam brace was the director of the show and he sadly passed and there's nothing to be said about it i think other than he was a wonderful person who i knew well yeah and uh and i feel that he knew of me as being very private and so he would probably find it weird if i was suddenly like talking about him on a podcast like i'm you know i keep to myself and yeah like he he once said to me like you know you're doing a lot of interviews and a sort of like watch yourself way like like because he kept me on the straight and narrow he he he he was my compass for like decisions generally not just about the show but like fascinating is this photo right for the thing and he'd be like you look a bit egotistical i'm like okay if adam says that then that's true

yeah so like i have to like try and conjure the spirit of him to make decisions in my life going forward, yeah. And Adam is, to listeners of this podcast will know, he was the director also of Alex Edelman's Just For Us, which just debuted on Broadway, and who's been on the show three times. And I feel like Alex is much more in touch with, I mean, I don't know him that well, but I feel like he's better at talking about it than I am.

Yeah. I don't know if you were at my opening, I tried to talk about Adam afterwards because I wanted to do a toast to him and I was just, I couldn't get through it. And then I found out that Alex had done it on the stage of the Hudson right after he bowed. And I was like, I don't know how he did that.

Yeah, I was very impressed by Alex, the way he dealt with it. He cried during his discussion of it. Yeah. I mean, it's, yeah, I mean, I had a handful of comedian friends die when I was in my 30s. And I just don't think, I don't think I've gotten over it. Yeah. I mean, I think that's in some ways the best thing you can say about something like that

is like don't worry that you're feeling sad I always say this to Alex because we're close don't worry that you're feeling sad because that's what's normal and also probably won't go away yes and we're like Alex and I are bound in fire

now because of this yes this this mirroring experience of you know other things like alex was the person that told me when it happened and things like that so like just by circumstance and yeah so very very odd thing where we're opening our two shows i mean his is much more intense than mine. His is on Broadway. And when Adam and I opened the show in the West End in London, I was near breakdown as it was. I'd just come off filming something. I got COVID. I opened the show with COVID. I was not meant to say that, but I did. Britain is a very different place than here. That would never have flown here. Well, no one knew. Oh, they didn't know. Oh, wow.

So I was wearing a mask and keeping my distance from everyone, but it's a one-person show, so that's fine. But I was telling everyone that it was because I was trying to protect myself. So I was like, I don't want to get sick, but actually it was because I was already sick and I didn't want to make other people sick. Wow. I probably really shouldn't have said that.

But anyway, I was doing a lot of press. I was on the brink. Everything was going wrong. So this is the reason I bring it up with the creatives who listen to the show. It's like, if that is how they feel. Because I think a lot of people feel that way about like, I want to create work, but I don't want to talk about it. I don't want to have to explain it.

I don't want to have to sell it. I have to say a lot of the bane of my existence is selling my work convincing people to come to the show that I've spent all these years on which you have Somebody said to me recently because I was doing this I do this sitcom in France

weirdly, I don't know how So do I, humble brag We all have to go off and do our sitcoms in France sometimes. And it's set in the EU Parliament and somebody from the Parliament came to ask me if I would go and do social media for the Parliament, like would I go and talk about what it's like to film in the Parliament. And my gut said, like, you know when you just like dial your gut,

your gut is just like, no, do not do that. And I was like, oh, and I was like oh I and I was like I can't I don't know anything I even though I do this job I don't know anything about the parliament yeah I knew I was going to make a fool of myself yeah I was going to get cancelled I was going to do something yeah I was going to say something really stupid and so I said no and um I think they were sad and uh I then I was explaining to someone I was like is that okay that I said no to that and then they were like well and I was hoping that this guy would be like, no, it's totally fine that you said no. And he's like, well, I think, you know, part of being an actor is the audience, and

therefore you owe it to the audience to go and give. And I was like, ah, not the answer I was looking for, actually, today. I was looking for you to confirm to me that you owe it. You owe it to the audience. But you can't, there doesn't exist a show or a thing without an audience. So therefore, you know, I should. No, it's a real conundrum. It's a conundrum. Yeah, yeah. Because I don't want to do interviews about my shows, but I just do.

Yeah, but also like I feel like I should be like, oh, grow up. I should not eat to you. That wouldn't be what I said to you on the first time with me. But yeah, maybe in a couple of times later, I'd tell you to grow up. But yeah, I have to just be like, don't be so stupid. Go and do the thing. I feel like it's worth unpacking this idea of like, dreading interviews, because I think most people would listen to this and go like, suck it up. Exactly. You know what I mean? Like first world problems. Yeah, yeah. High class problems.

But I'm actually going to push back on that and say. What a first world problem thing to do. Well, the reason why you or me or anyone, my wife is a poet. She deals with this. I have friends who are painters. They do this. It's like the reason you do the thing is you're expressing something that you didn't want to express stress with just regular words yes yeah and then all of a sudden you get good enough at the thing where you express yourself with not the

regular words yeah and they're like we need you to explain it with the regular words yes i think i yeah it's like i think i struggled with that at first because i was like people were very interested in like the feminist themes in my show and they wanted me to they wanted me to give them sound bites about sure what i thought about women and i fell for that against them right yeah yeah i'm really anti-women and I fell for that for the first like few interviews I did and then um and then I would see these like soundbite pull quotes from me that sounded as if I had anything worth like anything worthwhile to say on the topic which I don't think I do and I realized that I the reason I was struggling with it is because I was like,

but the show is the way I talk about it. Like the stupid, really stupid jokes is my way that I've decided to talk about it. And I had like a real epiphany when I realized that just because they're a journalist from a newspaper doesn't mean I have to answer the question seriously. And so that was a fun epiphany for me because I was like, oh, I'm going to try and not answer. I'd leave an interview and I'd be like, that was very dry. And I'd be like, oh,

because I answered everything very seriously. Is that what's happening right now? No. Okay, good. Is it? I don't know. I don't think so. I don't think so. But at the beginning,

I thought you were maybe fucking with me when you were describing that what you were saying in the sincere part of your show wasn't sincere but it isn't wait no i get it now it took me 17 minutes to understand you thought i was doing a bit yeah i thought you were doing a bit and then i was like oh no i'm i'm the other end of the bed no in this rare instance i was not doing a bit do you ever get nervous about people whether it's Phoebe Waller-Bridge or like any like Josie Long or any of these people who do solo shows seeing your show would you be nervous if they came I had a couple of the playwrights who'd

written one woman shows come and see it in the early venues in London and I found that yeah quite terrifying but they all had a very nice good sense of humor yeah said fun things to me in the bar afterwards like um one of them said that she felt very triggered by it and she said I've really lived it and I was like I know I know you have and I was like I'm sorry but they they were very they were at least my face, they were very good humor. Yeah, because you definitely nail a lot of things about it. I do autobiographical solo shows, and I was able to fully enjoy that it was being parodied.

The only thing that crossed my mind was, are there enough people who've seen solo shows to enjoy a parody of solo shows? Well, this is a question that commercial producers had to ask before we went into the West End. And clearly they did. Yeah, but it was a hunt. It was a risk.

We were like, we'd played at Soho Theatre and sold well, but that Soho Theatre and sold well and then, but like that's Soho Theatre. I love it. I did My Girlfriend's Boyfriend there like 10 years ago. It's the best. Like it's the best theatre. And that's the audience. And we were just very concerned that it wasn't going to,

we know that we were just playing to the sort of echo chamber. But yeah. And that's where you met your director, Adam, right? Because he worked at Soho Theatre for years. Yeah, no, I met, he directed my sketch show like back in 2015. Oh, he did? Yeah, yeah.

Called Massive Dad. People always, so one of the biggest questions I get as a solo performer in relation to my director is like, What do they do? What do they do? You know what I mean? And it's like, the truth is do? What do they do? You know what I mean? And it's like the truth is a ton.

Oh, yeah. But more dramaturgy, directurge as Adam called it. A lot of script stuff. Yeah, a lot of script stuff. Like my soundboard for every inane thought I've ever had effectively. Right. You know, yeah, which has been challenging here. Like we, luckily Adam was able to come to Sydney with me in February.

So that was the first time we'd performed the show outside of the UK. So we did our reference comb, is what he called it, going through the show and finding every single reference. You know, we went through the whole script in Sydney and changed it. And we market surveyed people around the opera house being like, what would you, where would you buy this from? And where would you get this from? And changed all the references.

So I had like a base. I knew where the problems were, but I didn't know what my new New York version was going to be. And so I've been trying to figure that out. When I was in Australia in my show, My Girlfriend's Boyfriend, I talk about going to the carnival when I was a kid and going and eating cotton candy. They're like, what's cotton candy?

And I was like, it's like this sugar and it's like... Candy floss. Fairy floss. Oh, fairy floss. Fairy floss. Candy floss is the UK. Fairy floss. That's what it is. So candy floss is the uk fairy floss that's what it is so candy candy floss is how i did it in uk and then fairy floss i did what was amazing isn't that sweet fairy floss is hilarious because we were fairy floss we were laughing exactly we were laughing

about how like floss is oh yeah talk about reverse about reverse psychology. Yeah, that's like the opposite of floss. Yeah, so using sugar to floss the teeth of a fairy, yeah. Fairy floss. Yeah. It's floss for fairies. This is what we do on the show. It's called The Slow Round. And it's just like sort of memory-based questions.

But it's like what are – do you have a nickname going up? No. Bad nickname? Good nickname? Bullies? Did I – it was my nickname. Bullies. My nickname was Bullies.

Yeah, what's your nickname? Liz Bullies. Liz Bullies Kingsman. Did I have bullies? No. I went to school in Australia in a – I look back on like incredibly idyllic, like just sort of nice, very nice school where everyone was quite nice to each other. But I feel like that's the sort of thing that you say if you were one of the people that didn't have bullies.

And it was all very like, I don't know, I just look back on it and I'm like, why did i ever leave oh wow why did i ever leave or grow up or leave school or have to be an adult in any way i'm like that was really good actually oh you definitely missed your therapy session today yeah yeah i certainly did these are key questions key questions but like most people look back and they're like i can't but i they couldn't wait to get out of it yeah that's how i was like i didn't want it to end yeah i had such a nice time at school wow yeah huh weird right it's a little weird for me but i but i get what you're saying

i believe you yeah yeah it is funny like in some ways when you go like like some people like really lock into school some people don't but i feel like a lot of times artists or people actually don't lock into school yeah it's yeah it's true i was listening to i was trying to listen to your the judd apatow episode where you said like what trauma from your life brought you to comedy and i was thinking about that in my own life i was like like, no, I don't. You don't have that. No.

But that's kind of what my show is about as well. Like the show is about this desperate need to have trauma to talk about. Right. On stage. And I don't feel like I do. I mean, currently I'm grieving. So that's happening. But other than that, you know, I don't think I have – I don't feel traumatized.

And that made us for a certain point in time kind of like not really valuable in comedy. Yeah. You know? Well, it's funny. Like when awful and sad, when Adam died and one of the first things I thought and I said to Alex, I go, he's's gonna have a lot of solo shows written about him and that's what that's what he would have wanted I know it's so funny everyone he would have the same thing he'd enjoy that everyone's gonna write about this yeah yeah of course it's like 10 Edinburgh shows being created right now yeah like by very very sad comedians being like and then

and then he gave me a note that I couldn't quite handle. Do you have a smell you remember growing up? When you said that, I imagined those flowers that are like, those white flowers that have like yellow frangipanis maybe. Is that what they're called? I don't know. Daisies? Not daisies, but some sort of flowery scent.

Okay. It's just very, like, colorful and blue and green. That's what I think of. How the hell did you end up in comedy? I don't know. I honestly don't know. You're like, I had no drama. My memory of smells are flowers. Like, what the fuck? Like, what the fuck?

Like, what the fuck is going on here? I also have such a, like, dead cold heart. So what's happening there? It's not dead cold heart, though, is it? Maybe my dead cold heart was growing up in a place full of daisies and frangipanis being like, something's at odds here. And so maybe that's what it was. I respect that.

Yeah. As a theory. Can we build something from that? Like, I don't know. I definitely remember feeling like at odds with it, but I enjoyed it. Were you ever left out of a group growing up? No, I had great friends. You're killing me.

We would honestly, honestly spend our weekends getting the bus to the beach, reading novels on the beach, going back to someone's house, making lunch together like avocado and bread, a mango cut into slices. And then we'd hang out for the afternoon and then we'd like go home to our houses with our pets and our gardens. It was so wholesome. And I realized I sound, sound yeah I know what I sound like anyway that's truly what my childhood was like fascinating it was lovely but honestly like this is why and and look I I I don't mean to be the person who's like like mining for like oh of course you're broken in some way although when Jimmy Carr Carr was on, he said, you know, show me a comedian

and I'll ask you, like, what was their relationship with their dad or something like that. Like, it was something that affected their mom. Or like, was your mom sick? I think he goes, like, was your mom sick? You know? And it's like... It's like, it's of three options.

There's a lot of dead dad shows in Edinburgh. That's like a joke about Edinburgh. Yeah. But like, I think he's not entirely wrong. So like, it's of three options. Yeah. They have, there's a lot of dead dad shows in Edinburgh. That's like a joke about Edinburgh. Yeah. But like, I think he's not entirely wrong. So like with you, you didn't have that. You didn't have the trauma you're describing. No. She's like, how do you, I think here's the reason why.

How do you square it away? Well, here's the reason why I think often there's a correlation. Because there's a void and you're trying to kind of fill the void. And because you have, it's so insatiable, you end up being able to work so hard because fundamentally show business is so goddamn hard. So do you mean like the void, something's broken,

so you, like, want to fill it with laughter? Yes, yes. But comedians don't laugh. Like, they hang out with funny people, but they're not, like, walking down the street like cabbers, you know? No, no, no. So I don't think they're filling a void in that. They're not doing stuff to make themselves laugh.

And I think part of that is honestly, like, because I have the same thing, like, I spend a majority of my social life with comedians. And part of it is I have so much social anxiety in life outside of comedy. Yeah, right. Saying like the wrong thing. Yeah. And that weirdly, like with comed comedians there's no such thing as putting your foot in your mouth really because there's like an immediate like joke punishment

yeah like the moment you put your foot in your mouth someone just like goes at you yeah yeah and like calls you on it in a way that isn't mean-spirited per se or it's mean-spirited but like in kind of they're hugging you kind of way. Yeah. Although weirdly, like, I never ever describe myself as a comedian. I don't ever think of myself like that. Yeah, I've made like a really bizarre point of it in all the press stuff that to be called an actor or writer because I don't fit because I don't ever want to be myself on stage. I never write stand up. I'm never going to go on panel shows. They have big panel shows in the UK where comedians go and be themselves and be funny.

You'll probably do them. Do one. I'd be pleased to be invited on one. I've never been invited. I'm sure you'll get the invite. Calling all cars. This is the point of this one, was to get you on QI.

But I would never go on any of this one was to get you on QI. Yeah, that's right. But I would never go on any of those. You don't go on those? Well, I haven't been asked, but if I was asked, I wouldn't. Yeah. I wouldn't. Like Nish Kumar goes on those. Exactly. Nish wakes up straight on a panel show for Nish.

He's on three or four before lunch. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, so that's why. He's got a real kn so that's why I feel like it would be insulting to comedians if I called myself a comedian because I'm not actually a comedian. That's what Joe, my brother Joe was asking. His question was, where do you workshop the show? Because, like, where do you, I guess as the full thing? As opposed to, like, because I workshop the show in my shows

in 10, 15-minute chunks. Then I go out to clubs because I workshop the show and my shows in 10, 15 minute chunks. Then I go out to clubs and I workshop an hour. But like the 10 minutes like at the Comedy Cellar here and stuff like that. Yeah. It's really significant for process

but it sounds like you don't do that. Well, this is the first, only and last show I'll make. So it's... You're not going to make a show again? Never. No. Wow.

I want to make films. Do you think you're going to direct films? Ideally, yeah. Oh, that's great. If I can just get a good night's sleep, I should be able to, yeah. Have you directed any films? No, only short films, yeah. Wow.

I'm excited for that. Me too. So I was like, right, put that down, go off. And I was doing more acting and sitcoms, and I was like, the aim the aim was right make films yeah and then this idea was like eating away at me and so i was like i'll just very quickly very quickly just get this out of my system and then the show just like and then the show just became like an animal object and it had its own life and pulse. And I was like, oh, okay, fine.

One might say that the reaction to the show was flowers. It just smelt of a beautiful summer's day. So no bullies. No bullies. I remember the smell of flowers. And the thing I made went well. And I won all these awards. And it went great. Honestly, if you could write a script of how to hate someone,

it would be what I'm working on. Because basically I spend three, four years on a show. Yeah. So this is like the beginning. This is your new show. Yeah. So Old Man in the Pool is what four years on a show. Yeah. So this is like the beginning. This is your new show. Yeah. So Old Man in the Pool is what I'm doing in London. Yeah. And then that's going to come out on a thing eventually. And then right now I'm just like work from scratch. This is just like note cards and here's some jokes. So this is a joke I'm working on about how American Southern accent, like sometimes I do not understand it. Like I was in a parking lot

after one of my shows and this woman just goes, she goes, she's like 30 feet away. She goes, da-ba-ba-da-ba-ba-da-ba-ba hat. And I was just like, what? And then she goes, da-ba-ba-da-ba-ba-da-ba-ba hat.

And I thought, oh no. All I understood was the word hat. And you can't ask what twice. Right? So then I just go, I'm wearing a hat. So I just go like, thanks. This is some kind of hat. She goes, no.

And I just waved and I like walked away slowly. And I thought, I guess we'll never know each other. It's nice. I'm trying to never know each other. It's nice. I'm trying to find something in it. It's like just an anecdote that happened. I like that in the no, when she said no to you, she understood that you didn't understand. Good point. She understood me, but I didn't understand her.

You're right. She understood that you were struggling to understand her, but didn't make it she didn't um make it make more sense to you she just starts to tell it again right this is yeah yeah the alternative is she she hated your hat and so when you went thanks she's like no i'm saying i don't like that hat. Right, right, right. So I could do an extrapolation out on, like, what she thought I was saying and that she was judging me. Like, in some ways, the bit could hinge on itself. Because, like, I'm judging her for having this wild accent,

but meanwhile, like, she's judging me. She understands me and her. Yeah, she's bilingual in this instance. She's bilingual in this instance. I like that. And you're not. So you're the, yeah. Oh, this is. She's bilingual in this instance. I like that. And you're not. So you're the, yeah. Oh, this is something I'm really trying to understand for myself.

I was working on this this weekend. I was trying to understand how people could find the humor. I mean, I think it's funny. But like how, like where the humor is in this, which is basically like when you fall in love, like I fell in love with my wife 20 years ago, like instantly, like fell in love the right way. And it's out of your control. Falling in love is out of your control.

It's like being hit by a bat. You know what I mean? Yeah. And you don't get to choose when you get hit by a bat. Yeah. Right? And so like I fell in love with Jenny and like, I was in a relationship

with someone else who I had insisted I would never fall in love with anyone or be in a relationship. Insisted is a, yeah. Right.

Exactly. I had felt confident. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I felt very confident. Insisted, yes. And then, so I fell in love with Jenny then I had to go back

to this first person and say is this true is this true oh yeah yeah and I had to say remember how I was saying that I'd never

fall in love good news and bad news on that one good news is I did so if you're rooting for my journey then it's a good week the bad news is it's this other lady and I don't even think you're rooting for my journey, then it's a good week.

The bad news is it's this other lady, and I don't even think you're going to meet her. So anyway, it's not you, it's me, or it's sort of you. It's not, it's you in the sense of it's, I needed to meet you to know I was in love with her. It's not you, it's me and her. I'm going to go now, and then that's the end. And what's funny is it's one of these bits where, I'm sure you've had some of these things like this before, the biggest laugh is if you're rooting for my journey, right?

But it's right in the middle. And then at the end, it gets kind of sad. Like, it's not you, it's me, and her is kind of like, blah. So then... You need to be heading towards something. Well, yeah, and I think what it is, and I haven't put this part of it on stage yet, I think it's heading towards, like,

I'm comfortable saying this because I have been the other person, like, 14 times. Oh, yeah, okay. Like, previous to that, like, literally I remember being 19 and just being, like, with someone and being like, I found you. You understand me more than, you know, and the person being like, I'm good. Yeah.

I'm all right, thanks. Yeah. Yeah. I'm all right, thanks. It's like from like a stats point of view, it's needed to happen. Like statistically. Statistically. Yeah, yeah.

That's actually what I was pointing out the other night. Because the audience kind of gasps a little bit at the end part. It's not you, it's me and her. I mean, yeah. Because it sounds mean-spirited, and of course I don't mean it to be mean-spirited. It would just be a mean thing to say to someone in a breakup. You've never said it. It's an outrageous thing to say.

And so I was trying to talk through it. Sometimes I do that with audiences. I'll be like, well, the reason, the logic behind that is. Yeah, yeah. And I was, and I think that it's basically that. It's that, like, it's funny because, like, I've been that person so many times. And it's like, that's the way of life. Like, if you fall in love, chances are you're sort of seeing someone else.

Right. Or you're sort of interrelated to someone else or were six months ago or whatever like yeah no one's at this point in a vacuumless vacuumless you know vacuumless I think that's the word no one's that's the American version like yeah yeah yeah well I've only been here for a few weeks so I'm just sort of getting getting used to it but uh yeah that and also like the audience don't want you the they it's that classic thing of like the they don't want to root for someone who's got too much going on for themselves so they don't want you to be i.e. I had a nice childhood no way everything's like smelling of flowers and I really like enjoying doing the show that I'm having fun with,

i.e., for example. But, yeah, so they – you can't – if they're gasping at you saying, it's not you, it's me and her, it's like that means for a split second like you were really like a cool guy for them. No, I know. I've become a cool guy. Nothing worse than cool guy comedy. Yeah, cool guy comedy. And so then your instinct is to immediately be like, no, no, no, let me tell you all the reasons I'm not a cool guy.

Right, right. And then you're going to tell them about all the 14 times that you got rejected. Right. But it's just like, isn't that telling them is purely so that you can have the lower status again and they can think you're a big... It's not purely for that. Well, no, on a sort of holistic... Cool guy comedy is a... It's not purely for that. Well, no, on a sort of holistic...

Cool guy comedy is a... It's just not funny. Not funny, and it's not sustainable. It's A, not sustainable, although arguably it is sustainable in the sense that there are some cool guy comics who are very popular. Yeah.

Yeah, so anyway, that's the thing I'm toying with right now. It's not you, it's me and her. Okay, but they're gasping. Yeah, so anyway, that's the thing I'm toying with right now. It's not you, it's me and her. Okay, but they're gasping. Yeah, but overall it's sort of fun because it's like... That's funny. Because it's, I don't know, because immediately I start talking also about like, I'm married and lately I've had people,

like a lot of friends get divorced. And I want to say to my friends who are getting divorced like you don't know who this hurts most it's me it's your married friends you have to go back to our husbands and wives and just be like so that's not us right like you're causing too many uncomfortable conversations in our house yeah yeah yeah well we do like a divorce autopsy we're like well they're and they didn't communicate but Yeah. Well, we do like a divorce autopsy. We're like, well, they didn't communicate, but we are, I mean, we're having a conversation right now. We're doing it right now.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Last thing we do is working out for a cause, and it's like basically we contribute to whatever organization you think is doing a good job, and then we link to them in the show notes. We encourage other people to contribute. Oh, my gosh, I have a perfect one from my show, the Wildfowl and Wetlands Trust.

Oh, my gosh. Is that real? It's a real charity that protects the wetland habitats for birds and wildlife. One of my favorite things about your show is that your program, there's a fake show within the show, and your program, the front is the program for your show and the reverse, if you flip the book over, is the fake show. And it's lovely. You really did the work on it. Did some work, yeah.

You did the full fake one. Okay. Did I do the work or did I procrastinate writing something else? Precisely. Was it like, you could write this script that you're overdue on or you could write fake content for the program. Fake content.

So yeah, I wrote some fake content for the program which is quite fun. Well, congratulations on the show and I'll see you in London I think in the fall

if you're around. Thank you so much. I love your show. Thank you. That's going to do it for another episode of Working It Out. I love that Liz Kingsman show, one-woman show. I couldn't recommend it more highly. It runs until August 11th at the Greenwich House Theater.

You can follow Liz on Instagram at Liz Kingsman. And you can watch the full video of this interview on our YouTube page. I have a YouTube channel. If you have a moment, subscribe to the channel. It's got my conversation with Ira Glass, Elise Myers, Tom Papa. We're psyched about it. It's fun to see these interviews. The body language of them is sort of fun.

Check out burbigs.com and sign up for the mailing list. There may be a New York something or other this fall. So if you sign up, you'll be the first to know about that. Our producers of Working It Out are myself, along with Peter Salamone and Joseph Burbiglia, associate producer Mabel Lewis, consulting producer Seth Barish, assistant producers Gary Simons and Lucy

Jones, sound mix by Shubh Saran, supervising engineer Kate Belinsky, special thanks to Marissa Hurwitz and Josh Upfall, as well as David Raphael and Nina Quick. My consigliere is Mike Berkowitz, special thanks to Jack Antonoff and Bleachers for their music, special thanks to my wife, the poet J. Hope

Stein, and of course, our daughter, Una, who built the original radio fort made of pillows. Thanks most of all to you who are listening. If you're enjoying the show, rate it and review it on Apple Podcasts. It always is the most helpful when people write what their favorite episode is. I saw Tig Notaro this weekend,

and I said, hey, we to have you back on the podcast. People always recommend yours in the Apple Podcasts as one of their favorite episodes. And she seemed like she was pretty into it. So hopefully we'll have that out in the fall. Most of all, we want to thank you for listening. Tell your friends. Tell your enemies, especially if you have enemies in London,

because I'm going to be in London, and I don't know that many people there. It might be a good time to just drop them a line, say, hey, I know we had a bad falling out, etc., but there's this podcast I've been really enjoying where creatives kind of talk out ideas. And actually, this week, one of your own, Liz Kingsman, is the guest.

See you next time, everybody.