Mike Birbiglia's Working It Out - 104. Jim Gaffigan: Dark Comedy from the Cleanest Comedian

Episode Date: July 31, 2023

Mike met Jim Gaffigan in 1997 when he cold-called Jim’s New York City landline. Jim appeared as a guest on Working It Out in 2021 and now, between touring with Jerry Seinfeld, releasing his 10th comedy special “Dark Pale,” and raising money for the Georgetown Scholars Program, Jim sits down with Mike in-studio for his second Working It Out chat. The old friends go deeper as they work out material and discuss how Jim actually *doesn’t* like hot pockets, what item of clothing comedians should never wear, and why being married to a comedian is like having a roommate who is a conspiracy theorist. Please consider donating to The Georgetown Scholars Program: https://gsp.georgetown.edu/

You and Seinfeld, I feel like touring together, it's a little bit of a monopoly. I feel like the government should break it up. Really? You're taking comedy audiences, you're touring as a double bill. Oh, that's interesting. You're taking comedy audiences and there's nothing left for the rest of us. Oh my gosh. Well, obviously, you're being nice.

It is one of those things where Jerry had brought it up before the pandemic. He's like, why don't we do a couple shows together? I'm like, yeah, sure, sure. On that tour, will you pick his brain about comedy? Oh, my gosh. That's all we'll talk about. Well, we meet up all the time and do a show, and then we'll talk for two hours about stand-up.

That's interesting. Yeah. Because I think he is the guru. Yeah, he's the Socrates of comedy. He is. That is the voice of the great Jim Gaffigan. Welcome to Working It Out. This is Mike Birbiglia.

We couldn't be more excited about this episode today. The first time we had Jim Gaffigan on the show was our most popular episode episode of all time and this one uh is in studio um we have the entire thing on youtube right now it's on my youtube channel you go there and subscribe uh it looks great sounds great and it's um Jim is just he's been doing this so well Jim is just, he's been doing this so well, so long. I mean, he's unbelievable. The guy's had a 30-plus year comedy reign. Variety has him on their cover this week,

and it says, Jim Gaffigan, comedy's prolific powerhouse, and he is precisely that. If you go back and listen to the first episode that I did with him, you'll hear the story of when I called his landline in the 1990s. Back when there were landlines, I went to the alumni house at Georgetown University, and I looked up comedian, and there was one in the alumni, and it was Jim Gaffigan. I called him, and he gave me some of the best advice that I've received to this very day. We talked today about his new special, Dark Pale. We talked about process. We talked about joke writing. It really, it gets pretty deep. I have to say like there were moments in this interview today where I thought, wow, this is, I've known Jim for a long time, but I'm hearing him say

things I've never heard him say before. I just want to mention a couple things before we go into the episode. I'm going to be in Edinburgh, Scotland with the old man in the pool. And then I'm going to be in the West End of London for 30 performances in September. 30! All of this is on burbigs.com. The Working It Out shows of new material this summer have been so fun, and we're going to announce more of those soon. I'm doing four shows in Boston, which we're titling Christmas Parmesan, based on a joke from the old man in the pool.

But it's going to be my new hour in Boston at the Wilbur, one of my favorite theaters on the planet. That is in December, and it's on sale now. So get those tickets fast for Boston. Those are going to be amazing shows. In my hometown, all new material, Christmas Parmesan. The perfect Christmas gift is Christmas Parmesan, and you could actually gift it with chicken Parmesan. I mean, did I even have to finish the sentence? My conversation today with Jim is so fun.

His special is so good, it's called Dark Pale. It is on Prime Video. And enjoy my conversation with the great Jim Gaffigan. We're working it. You opened for the Pope. Yes. And it was a big deal. Yeah. Because the Pope, like, doesn't even come to America that often.

Right. And so you opened for him. You've been doing comedy for, like, 30 years. You probably don't get nervous. You must have gotten nervous opening for the Pope. Oh, I was terrified. I mean, because it was a no-win situation right it was one of those things where nobody uh you know there's reverence and then there's you know it's kind of like the worst type of corporate

right and it was philadelphias and you know, the whole Northeast is just, you know, there's just a hatred that runs through the Northeast. That's hilarious. Right? Well, for sure. That's why there's so many comedians from the Northeast. I think so. But I call the whole Acela line, I call it the corridor of hate.

Because there's so much anger there. You're dead on. Philly. Yeah. Philly, D.C., Baltimore. New York, Boston. Yeah. I know that line well.

It's all. The quiet car isn't quiet. No. There's an anger there. But by the way, I love it though. It's so funny because you said that the opening for the Pope was like a corporate because I do a lot of corporates and you do a lot of corporates because we're both, we don't curse a lot. Yeah. And I do a lot of corporates and you do a lot of corporates because we don't curse a lot. And so when the corporation wants to do an event, they're like, oh, these guys won't mess it up. Right.

They won't alienate the people. Because a lot of comedians, if you say don't do this, their instinct is to do that. Of course. Then of course I will do that. They always say that. The last thing you should tell a comedian to do is not do something because they will say that thing. They'll do that thing. Yes. But like, I always think of you when I'm at corporates because I'm like, Jim can work anywhere. Like, and I do well, but every once in a while,

like I did one in Boston where it was like international business people from around the world. They didn't speak the same language. They probably spoke 10 different languages. They didn't know each other. It was like a conference. And I bombed. When I say it was silent in the room, it was as if the Buddha was there,

he would have said, here is true peace. And I got off stage and the guy running the event goes, and they usually try to dress it up. He goes, does it usually go that badly? Has it ever happened for you? Oh, yeah. After all the years you've done it, it still stings because you develop these tools to avoid those situations. But we're such whores for the money.

Yeah. We're like, all right, I'll go in there. Because I also consider. How bad can one hour be? I did an event where it was in somewhere in Florida. And it was for like, it was like a millionaire's club. Like where people were, they're like all millionaires and they meet and they share ideas and business ideas. And there was the announcement, no videotaping, no photos before the show.

And it was a bloodbath. Of no laughter. It was – well, it was – there was some laughter, but it was true combat. It was – They were coming at you. There was just kind of heckling. There were videotaping. I would say, can you please not do that?

And they'd be like, oh, come on. And then so it was like a prom show. Come on. Do you know what I mean? Just to give context to the audience, people would have no idea that a prom show even exists. When Jim and I were starting out, I mean, early 2000s for me,

in the 90s for you, we would go to Caroline's and they would book us at two or three in the morning, sometimes four in the morning to perform for kids who needed to do activities after their senior prom.

So they wouldn't be drinking. And then, of course, they would be drinking secretly. And then we would perform comedy and Bob. I mean, it would go terribly. Yes. And it would be people like you and me and, you know, Ted Alexandra and people who are great comics. Yeah.

And are bombing in front of these high school kids. Yeah, there's a lot. You know, it's interesting because they are similar to corporate. It's like it's almost like I remember there was this thought where it's like i don't want to i want to do well on a corporate but also if you do too well like there are certain shows that like if you do too well on a roast yeah no to go like am i even a good comedian well it's also like that it's a different skill set yeah right and there are great comedians that can do roasting thing but like i view it as similar to crowd work it's like yeah that's a great skill there are people that are really

good at it but i don't think there's enough value in doing crowd work i'm too much of a obsessed with the writing and the rewriting yeah and. And, you know, and I can tell you are too. Yeah, completely obsessed, yeah. It's like, yeah, there's, I mean, that's really impressive that you can do the crowd work. But like, you know, prom shows, corporates, you know, roasts and stuff like that, which I've never really done a roast. I've never done one.

I only did one, you know, years ago before Amazon became what it is. Yeah. There was a humor site called the Modern Humorist and they asked me to roast Jeff Bezos. Oh, wow. And so I showed up and Joe Birbiglia and I wrote jokes about Jeff Bezos. Oh, wow.

And I sat there next to Jeff. I stood there next to Jeff Bezos and I mocked him for 15 minutes. And then it was written up in Wall Street Journal and stuff like that. And it was like the only roast I ever did. If there is something about roasting. And now he's the most powerful person in the world and could shrink me into like a corn kernel if he wanted to. into a corn kernel if you wanted to.

It is fascinating how, you know, because you get so deep into writing and, you know, having teenagers and all this, it's, you realize like roasting is put down humor, right? Yeah. And that's, and there's something, look, it's funny. It's, you know, all the diplomatic things i'm supposed to say but it is put down humor it is it is eighth grade it is kind of uh uh your mom is fat right and that's the basis of all all-down humor. Your mom is blank. It's similar to crowd work, making fun of someone's shirt. And again, there are masters at it.

as uh you know uh don rickles was it was it was a little bit of the curmudgeon-y thing right it was it was kind of like the the lovable mean guy you know i mean and there is i mean there's only one don rickles do you know i mean so it's hard to kind of be in that lane whereas like I think you know other types of comedy it's there's more pats out of it there was a roast joke that Tom Papa talked about on this podcast where John Mulaney

roasted him by calling him Jim Gaffacant and he said it was the meanest thing that anyone ever said to him Gaffacant. And he said it was the meanest thing that anyone ever said to him. Gaffacant? Gaffacant. Tom, you're like Jim Gaffacant. And he said it hurt him so much.

He's like, because we all revere Jim. And it's sort of, I've always been in Jim's shadow in some way in my career. And like, it hurts me. Like, he's like, he said it 15 years ago. Oh, my God. That's so weird. Well, there's also something about the roasting thing. If you put it out, you got to take it.

And there's part of me that I don't want to take it. I don't want to take it either. Do you know what I mean? Not interested. And so, like, I don't have any. Again, it's like, I enjoy them. What's the meanest burn anyone's had of you, even on or off stage? Oh, yeah, no, there's-

When do people diss you and it like actually hurts your feelings? Yeah, that's like a really nice mic. What makes you feel horrible, Jim? I just want to put that out there so that all my... So people can do it. All my burbigliites... So people can press that button on your head. My burbigliites.

Oh, God. You know, there is... I called them burbigheads. Burbigheads. No, we don't use that. That's so funny. You know, it's weird. All right, here. You don't have to say this but you could say like what does genie say to be mean what does your wife say to be because she's super funny she oh well you know it's like look that's we've been married 20 years

so it's like it's so complex beyond that you know i what I mean? It's like, that's like, that has nothing. She knows to like cut right to the bone. She goes right in there. Yeah, yeah. It's why, you know, and I've been trying to work on that. It's like when husbands have a fear of their wife, it doesn't mean they're weak. It just means that this person knows them so well. It's like-

I think about this all the time. Right? It doesn't, it's not an indictment of the spouse. No. It's really like, you're dumb enough to be that vulnerable to this one person. You know, it's like- That's such a deep statement. They're the emotional bank. So like, yeah, you don't want to piss that person off. I think about this, well, because in my new hour,

I'm talking so much about marriage because I spend 90% of my life with my wife and daughter. Like it's so much. So my observations are so much about relationships. But what you're describing is what I'm kind of kicking around in that sand, which is like, if you're like, if you're not like this, like if you're not afraid of your wife, like, I don't know what's going on. Yeah. Or husband, if you're not a little bit afraid, because that person could just squash

you emotionally. It's not lifting a finger. It's not about financial consequences or sleeping on the couch. Yeah. It's, you know, it's the knowledge that they have. And it's almost kind of like an emotional knowledge they have. Yes. Because you've, particularly if you've been married to them for that long. Yeah, for me, 15 years this week. And you've, you know, if you're like in a relationship that long you failed so dramatically of course you know what i mean and

we've all failed so much they've had to forgive you they've been in the front row for all of your failures yes yeah and they went like that and go all right stand up right that's right the one the joke i have that I'm working on, which is like, I feel so lucky to have found this person who understands me most in the world. And yet about once a week, she'll stare at me while I'm doing some activity

and she'll go, well, what are you doing? And then I'll explain whatever it is. And then she'll start laughing, not with me, just at me with no one. And then I'll say, why are you laughing? She'll say, no reason.

And that's the end of the conversation. And that's the person who understands me most. Yes, yes. Sometimes it's lonely. Yeah. And by the way, you almost like, you know, you fear your wife, but you also feel sorry for them. You're like, ah, shit, you got to deal with me.

You deal with me. You know what I mean? It's huge. Yeah yeah certainly as a comedian because our whole thing is and she's a she's a comedian as well and and or comedy writer as well and jen's a poet and so they share a lot in common with us but you have to be married to someone who essentially for their profession scrutinizes things to a point of absurdity yeah and is is embraces the contrarian view that's right and what people have to understand is that it's being married to a comedian is kind of like having a roommate that's a conspiracy theorist do you know what i mean it's like you have to be the person that's like,

did we land on the moon? That's so funny. Did we? That's exactly right. That's entertaining for a while. And for the audience. But like, you know, I don't know. Well, I had this joke about it recently,

where I didn't say early stage, but it's just like, Jen goes like, sometimes I feel like you're not happy. I'm like, right. this joke about it recently where I didn't say early stage, but it's just like, Jen goes like, sometimes I feel like you're not happy. I'm like, right. That's what you were into when we met. It was cool. I go, but I'm funny about it. I go, when I stop being funny about it, you can totally leave. Yeah. Cause I think that that's what, that's our, that's our strength as comics, right? Is like we can take what we believe is the reality of this scenario, which is like everything – life is challenging. There's no way around it, you know?

And we can – what our strength is is we're able to make that somewhat funny. Yeah. And if we can't, I get it. Yeah. I get why someone would walk. So in Dark Pale, you shot in Tampa, which is ridiculous. Why is it ridiculous? Well, it's a funny town.

First of all, I have family in Tampa, and I love them, and I'm going to visit them. I think I haven't announced this, but it's in, I think, in February. And, like, because I love them. But they used to live in Buffalo. And my joke about Tampa is it's the, I think, in February. And like, because I love them, but they used to live in Buffalo. And my joke about Tampa is it's the Buffalo of Florida. See, but I feel like Tampa is the southern capital of the Midwest.

What? It's everyone on the, so everyone from the East Coast goes to the East Coast. You're absolutely right. Okay. And Midwesterners and Canadians go to Coast of Florida. You're absolutely right. Okay. And Midwesterners and Canadians go to the West Coast of Florida. You're absolutely right. But then you go, you have a joke up front about Tampa, America's next great city.

I forget what the exact joke is. No, that is. When I lived there, that was the big thing that Tampa was America. I mean, this was 30 years ago yeah but Tampa was I mean they were building a mile of highway a day in Florida it's just like it's the population probably doubled yeah you know I mean in the past 40 years do you always open with local jokes? Because like I was in Philadelphia a few weeks ago.

And you ever feel like you go too far? Like, I go, we're in Philadelphia, the place where people go when it doesn't work out in New York. Oh my gosh. And it was like, it was like, what? Yeah. Yeah, no, I think of Philadelphia, incredible amount of pride. Yes.

Incredible amount of pride. Incredible amount of pride. Yes. You and I and Mulaney, a few months ago, we raised a million and a half dollars for George Shone Scholarship Program. So how much of that do you get to keep? A million and 4.5. No, none of it. It's great though.

Yeah, it is great. We raised a whole bunch of bucks. Yeah, it is. And we'll, none of it. It's great, though. Yeah. It is great. We raised a whole bunch of bucks. Yeah. And we'll plug it on here, because it's a scholarship program for first-generation college students. Yeah. And we've done it twice now. Yes.

Never again. No, it is one of those things where... It was draining. It's so... Well, you know, everyone has these different things. And so you're trying to, you know, some of it is you're protecting the comedians from the bureaucracy that exists. Yeah. Where they're like, hey, can they all do this?

Can they wear like a suit? And you're like, no, no, no, no. They are showing up. We're nice folks. Doing the best we can right i'm wearing a blazer i'm like an adult i'm like you look nice i'm like you're ready for the corporate that is working it out i'm an adult you know like every now and then you'll see someone in a blazer and you're like should i wear a bla? Do you wear a blazer every now and then? No, I do it for the talk shows and things,

but I generally don't. I should. It's a slimming. It has a slimming effect. Right? But it's just like... I need to enter the phase of my career where I'm really looking to win people over with my looks.

When does that start? I don't think that's in... That's not an opportunity for me that's for sure but like i do feel like there is some like i'm not gonna wear a tie but like yes you know like did you ever debate like should i wear jeans like right too old to wear jeans i think one of the wisest things i've ever heard is as a comedian don't wear shorts oh yeah well shorts deadly unless but canadians i feel like can, don't wear shorts. Oh yeah. Well, shorts. Deadly. But Canadians, I feel like Canadians can wear shorts. Why is that what you called that

yeah i mean some of that's like a lot yeah and some of it is know, it's all self-assignment, right? So it's like with each of your shows, you sit there and you go, all right, I'm going to do this. And I feel as though there are, you know, for most comedians, and that's why I think podcasts are so entertaining for people, is that there is, forget about the uncensored thing, but I think there's darker sides to comedians. Like what comedians laugh about is, you know, different from what we, and so like some of it, it's embracing some of that nihilism or that cynicism that is inherently in me do you know what i mean like oh yeah yeah of course i mean i say stuff at the i say stuff at the cellar that i would never put in a special like i i followed keith robinson the other night

who's had two strokes and talks about it explicitly on stage and he's brilliant i mean no one funnier than keith robinson and i go on stage after Whenever I go after him, I go, did Keith do all my stroke material? Yeah. I go, you know, we've all had a couple, but some of us just handle it better. Right. And of course, the audience loves it. Yeah. Because audiences like dark humor.

They do. They do. But like, you have a joke where you go, when an anti-vax preacher dies, everyone's like, good. Yeah. And the audience goes crazy. Yeah. And that was in Florida, by the way. I know.

And so there is, I mean, it is interesting, like doing some material and, you know, hearing the laughs and hearing different types of laughs. Because I remember when I was doing Dark Pale, I have stuff where I talk about global warming. And, you know, and some of it is like, by the way, like I believe that there's global warming, but like I don't understand it.

You know, it's a little bit like the stock market right i'm like i know that people make money in the stock market but i would i'm pretending to understand it i know i know the different laughs from different parts of the audience. And it can shift. There is part of me, like when I do the global warming material, where people – I can feel some people in the audience going well i don't believe in global warming but i'll go along with your premise because i like you yeah and there's also some people that are like i can't believe we're not judging dealing with yes the global warming thing you know like there is this and it's but by the way to answer your uh your question about what hurts me uh what has ever burned me is the um the thing about like when i went off

on trump yeah and the republican thing there was I mean, there was Trump and Trump people and trolls. But like, there was like a couple of people that are like, Jim Gaffigan lost his entire audience because they're all dumb right wingers. And I'm like, no, they're not. You know, like the whole thing is, is like, like, I felt like that, that kind of hurt my feelings. Like, because I do like, and I'm sure you're the same way. I like the, and I'm not saying I have the most diverse audience,

but I do like the fact that there is the lesbian couple sitting next to the Mormon family at my show. I love that. I love that I have 12-year-olds and 100-year-olds in my audience. I love it. I was going to say something very irreverent. But you love that for a different reason, Mike. Oh, my God.

Jesus Christ. Mainly because you like to have sex with 100-year-olds. Oh, my God. This is the side of Jim Gaffigan. No, but like, so like that, but that's, I would say that's what was kind of. Hurtful. It's a generalization that, and maybe it hurt because there was a point where I was like, oh, my God, what if everyone that came to my shows is a Trump supporter?

And they weren't. Right. everyone that came to my shows is a Trump supporter. And they weren't. But like, and at the time it didn't matter, but it was kind of like, what if, because what you reap, you sow, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, what you sow, you reap. And so like the whole thing of,

and you've seen this with other comedians. Like if you do really filthy stuff or you do stuff just about partying, that's who's coming. That's your audience. That's Burt Greischer's audience. That's the people that are coming. Now, if you're fine with that, that's fine. Yeah. And that's why I think with every hour, I do try and challenge them, like, with every hour i do try and challenge them like tie glasses like you you you always have some jokes to like weed people oh my god you do you know i mean kind of like well obviously you know uh you know and some of it might be as basic as like uh not being freaked out by gay people you know i mean like right there should be something of like so if people are like truly homophobic they're gonna be like oh wait a minute you know i mean right this guy's not for me yes and you just self-weeded them out basically it's funny because you and i have this in common which

is i've been on the road for 20 years seeing the whole you know the whole country you've been on the road for almost 30 years probably right and it's like people do have a wild misconception on the coast of the middle of the country oh yeah i mean it's really off like people say to me constantly like a middle of country those shows must be terrible i'm like no they're really good yeah it's weird i think it's but like when people on the coast have this flyover mentality. It's like, but you do know Chicago is. Yeah, dead center in the middle of the country. It's the third largest city or maybe it's.

But like it is, it just seems kind of, it's weird when people are like so against bigotry and then they attack it by introducing another form of bigotry. It's very strange. What a great guy I am. I like this guy. I like this guy. Not only does he have great observational humor. He's also wearing a blazer.

He's a grown-up Jim Gaffigan. He looks like he's showered. my god i snorted oh that's good that i snorted that is good you have one of the great uh opening lines which is hi i'm jim gaffigan i've never heard of me either right and you probably can't do it anymore you're really a household name oh no i did that i did that at like i don't know, my second or third special. And then I did it at the Grammy Awards and it killed. Are you kidding me? I did it like 15 years later. I was nervous and I was like, I've never heard it.

And it was like, ah. Because that's, talk about an audience. I wouldn't. Let me ask you this. Hosting the Grammys, I would never want to do that. No. People don't understand that. I don't want to do that. No. I don't, people don't understand. I don't want to host anything.

Right. But it's interesting because, you know, Gary here who works on the show, he's been opening up a bunch of my working it out new material shows. And one of the things we always talk about is like, you got to have an opening joke. And the reason you need an opening joke is the audience doesn't know whether or not they're on your side yet. And that is like the perfect joke. I've never heard of me either. The reason it's perfect, in my opinion, is it's I've never heard of me either. Six words and you're on the

you've analyzed how they see you. Yeah. And then you've read their minds. Yeah. and then you've read their minds yeah and then you've come up with six words that encapsulate that immediately and they represent that you have a sense of humor and that you understand them yeah yeah and it's like so dense yeah did how many years did it take for you to come up with that were you like i gotta come up with another joke well i feel like with uh with each of them i was kind of trying to think of uh you know like there's different you know but when i do a special then i'm like all right i gotta find another way into this yeah where it kind of diffuses because it's awkward right you're essentially you know greeted with applause and so how do you diffuse that and segue into the show

yeah right because i do think that i want to get to work and i also want them to uh know that i'm uh gonna be doing jokes yes i mean yes but it is like there's different jokes in each of the specials that are kind of you know like i think one of them i was like oh he's fatter than i thought he would be you know i mean it's some of it is uh disarming the awkward moment but also speaking for them acknowledging self-awareness. You've been in comedy 30 years. It's like you've changed as a comic. Absolutely.

What's the biggest change you think in your comedy? Gosh, I don't know. I mean, I would say it is so, you know, like I went through periods where I was writing a lot with my wife. Yeah. And I would say that there's times when I would, and I'm sure this is probably the case with you, where I would um and now i sometimes go on stage and kind of riff on a topic yeah and then um i mean just the complexity of our family life has five when i first started dating my wife i would do a spot either she would come with me or after a spot i would grab a bottle of wine and we would sit at home drinking wine talking comedy yeah and you just like the luxury of that is just gone yeah yeah and so um and so

now we're like trying to squeeze in conversations yes what your son does stand up, started doing stand up? He's toured with me. He's 17. Oh, my gosh. And it's so amazing because he, I don't know, have you done the Minnesota State? There's different state fairs, and you perform for like 13,000 people. Oh, my gosh. Wow.

Outside. So he opened, he's opened for for we've done a couple weeks like a bus tour so he performed in front of 13 000 people and he was like completely unfazed unbelievable and but it's also i'm all about preparation i assume you are too right obsessed yeah yeah and he's like i'm like dude you got to write out your beats you know you got to prepare and he's like yeah yeah i'm gonna do that no come in the room and he's like just looking at his phone i'm like there's like 3 000 people out there all right this is called the slow round okay this is a new one what's your guilty pleasure food?

Because you talk about it so much. Yeah. What's your one that's real and you actually eat it? I mean, guilty pleasure in that it's like, it's just absolute garbage. Yeah, like, come on. Like, you're still eating that? Like, are you still eating Hot Pockets? No, no, I never ate Hot Pockets. That's the whole irony.

Wait, you never ate them for real? No, I never ate Hot Pockets. That's the whole irony. Wait, you never ate them for real? No, I never. Well, I never said that I liked them. That's what's interesting. If you look at the Hot Pocket material, I never said I liked them. This is hilarious to me. You're famous for being the Hot Pocket person. I made fun of them.

I know, you mocked them mercilessly. For causing diarrhea and stuff like that. And people were like, oh, you love Hot Pockets. Second snort. You know, but yeah, no, I never really. But what's, there's a lot of guilty pleasures. Mine's Cinnamon Toast Crunch. Oh, really?

Oh, that's cereal. Cinnamon Toast Crunch. It's ridiculous. It's a ridiculous food. It's a ridiculous of guilty pleasures. Mine's Cinnamon Toast Crunch. Oh, really? Oh, that's cereal. Cinnamon Toast Crunch. It's ridiculous. It's a ridiculous food. It's a ridiculous food. Yeah. But my wife is from Wisconsin. Oh, yeah.

And- I'm eating cheese. So she's kind of a cheese snob. And I love this port wine cheddar, which is like a processed, essentially processed cheese. And she's like, don't eat that. Just get real cheddar. You like cheddar, you like cheese. Why are you getting that?

And I'm like, I just liked the tang of it. That's how I feel about like the macaroni and cheese with the powder. Oh really? Yeah. The powder cheese where it's like, Yeah. My joke.

It's a little tart. Yeah. I make the joke at stage. It's cheese where it's like... Yeah. It's a little tart. Yeah. I make the joke at stage. It's not even cheese. It's like a press conference for cheese. Yeah. Cheese couldn't be here this afternoon. Yeah.

I'm here on behalf of cheese. I'd like to thank butter. Milk was a big part of this. But I love that stuff. What's a song that makes you cry? Oh, I only like sad songs. My kids get so angry. They get get so angry enough with these sad songs my god but i only like ballads what do you what songs can you think of oh gosh i don't know here let me look on your you're playing your spotify or whatever but i

have i have a lot of musical taste i I'm very insecure about my musical taste. Oh, perfect. I have The Call by Regina Spector up here. I have Karma Police. Oh, yeah. Karma Police is a perfect example. It's such a crier. It's such an emotional song.

Yeah. But my kids get mad because they're bad songs and I listen to them. Well, they're not bad songs. They're not bad songs. They're just kind of, they're sad and they're kind of ballads like Lewis Capaldi stuff. I like that stuff. Yeah. You know what gets me?

Olivia Rodrigo's song, Driver's License. Oh, really? Gets me. If you hear the noise right now, it's people unsubscribing from this podcast. That's so funny. Because they're like, and it's not an insult to Olivia Rodrigo.

It's the fact that like this wasn't recorded in 2021. That's so funny. No, I saw it. I didn't even, that wasn't even on my radar. It was a huge hit. And then I went to see Keke Michael Key host SNL. And I was like, I saw it live for the first time. And I was like crying.

I'm like, this is unbelievable. This song is beautiful. I don't even know if she wrote it. I think she did. She did. No, she writes all of it. The, you and Seinfeld, who you're touring with, I feel like touring together, it's a little bit of a monopoly.

I feel like the government should break it up. Really? You're taking comedy audiences, you're touring as a double bill. You're taking comedy audiences, and there's nothing left for the rest of us. Oh, my gosh. Well, obviously, you're being nice, but that's... It is one of those things where Jerry had brought it up before the pandemic.

He's like, why don't we do a couple shows together? I'm like, yeah, sure, sure. On that tour, will you pick his brain about comedy? Oh, my gosh. That's all we'll talk about. Well, we meet up all the time and do a show, and then we'll talk for two hours about stand-up. That's interesting.

Yeah. Because I think he is the guru. Yeah, he's the Socrates of comedy. He is. He knows the most. And he's an absolutist. Like there's, so he is, he's one of those guys that,

he also removes some emotions that would get in the way. Like he doesn't gossip. He doesn't, he's all about like, it's either funny or it's not. It's just jokes. You know what I mean? And that's not, I mean, he's human. He has opinions on things. He also said a thing famously once.

I think about his stuff all the time. He said, if a joke works once, it can work forever. Oh, that's interesting. Yeah, isn't that an interesting concept? Yeah. He also says, to put it in an acting perspective, that the audience is your scene partner, which I think is true. Oh, that's brilliant. He's got so much wisdom. Yeah. And some of it is, it's really fun talking about some of uh the philosophies on things and he'll he'll have a strong opinion on something so like one of the things he says is he's like oh you know someone will be ask him about something he'll be like and he's not being dismissive of the person but he's like all right in five years who's doing this in five years? Yeah.

Who's, who's, and some of it is, and because I think that comedy is, you have to evolve. Who's doing this in five years? That's powerful. Right. I wrote this one this morning, which is, you know, I have a daughter, and eventually we're going to have to have a sex talk, which is, you know, I'm dreading. With your wife? No. My joke was, so I pitched to my wife that she and I should have sex and do a Q&A. Because I have a lot of questions. Yeah. That's all I have. It's called sex talk with Q&A. Right? That's funny.

That's fun, right? But it is like, it is, you know, the sex thing. It's also, it's once you get, you bring up sex and you enter the kid thing, then it's. Oh, I know. It's really, it's also, it's just, you don't want to get icky. Oh, I know. I said a joke on stage the other night that I don't think I'll do again. But it was funny in the moment. I go, I love my daughter.

I hate her friends. I go, they're insufferable. I go, when I'm with her friends, I'm like, I'm like, now I really don't understand pedophilia. No, see, but like that's- And I'm not going to do that again. It won't be in the next hour. See, but that's one of those things

where among comedians- That's a very comedians and comedians joke. We love the darkness of it because we also, you know, we know that like that is some of the humor is that it's antithetical to your values. Yeah. Whereas, you know, the general populace would be like you're being dismissive of that.

Yeah, yeah. Do you know what I mean? Well, yeah, but it's weird because you and i have this in common which is ira glass called me out on this on this podcast he's like you're so calm on stage and in life you're not calm you're intense and you're anxious and you're listening i know i go i go but i it's honest when i'm on stage i'm actually more calm than i am off stage yeah no there is something interesting also i think there's also something um there's you know there's biases we all kind of carry around with us yeah that and i think because people look at us you uh you and me and they don't think nudge what's nudge nudge is kind of like somebody who's just kind of uh driven oh right do you know what i mean right it's uh you know it's like here it's i think it's like a a yiddish term and

stuff like that but it's but it's because the perception is that we're not like that yeah and our our personalities are not like that that we probably get away with more it's kind of like uh the equivalent of someone being really tall and people assuming they'd be good at basketball right it's just this it's it's in some ways a harmless bias right but but you're like a person who your act i mean you've made it 10 comedy specials you're one a person who your act, I mean, you've made 10 comedy specials. You're one of the few people on the planet who's made 10 comedy specials. And you talk about being lazy. Right.

You're not lazy. Come on. But some of it is there are moments of it, right? There are moments where we engage in like. You're not being dishonest. You have the feeling sometimes. Oh, absolutely. And there's, you know,

compared to my wife, I am very lazy. Oh, that's interesting. Do you know what I mean? And, you know, when I go to a parent-teacher conference, I do need a vacation. Do you know what I mean?

I'm like, it's just brutal. It's just like walking in schools. I'm like, oh my God god i can't believe you guys have to come here every day this is this is a fun this i think you'll relate to is um it's so absurd i was on the subway heading to the cellar to work on material and i'm carrying like these note cards and they all have jokes on them yeah and i'm memorizing them and this woman next to me goes hey are you a comedian and i go yeah yeah i go i'm working on my notes and i'm memorizing them and this woman next to me goes hey are you a comedian and

i go yeah yeah i go i'm working on my notes and we both look down and the note card says remembering porn and then neither of us speak for the rest of the subway ride and then i exit the train and we never speak again it was the silence was so deafening, I'm still deaf. Well, by the way, that whole thing is like, and that's what, I don't know what your new show is about, but that is, that's a slice of it that you get into that remembering porn. That way in.

Right, that way in. So then here's the joke? That way in. Right, did I way in? So then here's the joke. That you sit there and that's like a juicy part where you sit there and you go, we're going to save that even if the porn joke doesn't work. Oh, interesting.

Yes. Like you use it as a tease early in the set and you come to the joke later. Because there is something about like, it's a little bit of that, what I should have said. Yes, it's a little bit. What I should have said was it's a little was nothing yeah

I mean yeah um do you have any bits that you're you're throwing on stage right now they're like new I mean I've been kind of you know I was working on this movie so I haven't been obsessing but like there is a joke that yesterday I was telling someone they were like that's funny which was about how um and again it might not be anything but like how pat sajak is retiring yeah and i was like is it do you really call it retiring from hosting Wheel of Fortune? It's like even after he takes like two weeks off, is he like, I tell you, I got to get my mind back in it. First of all, I definitely forget which letters are vowels.

You know what I mean? So I have to go through that. That's funny. I through that it's just i just think it's so interesting because obviously pat sajak it's great that you know we associate him with wheel of fortune yeah is that uh is there like no one's gonna be able to i gotta i gotta remind myself what's a person what's a place what, what's a thing. You know what I mean? And it's like, what is the, was he the luckiest man in entertainment history? Or is there, maybe I'm not looking at it. Maybe there is something really unique that he does besides it's your turn.

Oh my God. I wrote this joke. I wrote this joke recently about how my daughter's eight. You met her on the way and she's like the greatest and it's the cutest age. And, but in my mind, I can't not leap to when she's 16 and she's going to be like, my dad is garbage. And like, because when I was a kid, you know, my dad didn't have to deal with that because when, because when I was younger, grownups disregarded children. We used to say that and my dad would be like,

is someone talking? You know what I mean? But now she'll be like, my dad's garbage. And I'm going to have to be like, she's so brave. I totally agree with her. That's such a great point. She's saying it so well. Someone needed to say it.

No, but I think it's also, you don't know. What do you mean? That's the thing. It's not predestined. Oh, interesting. So did you deal with that with any of your kids? Well, my oldest, not really embarrassed of me, my son, and then my next daughter, you know, can you act like you don't know me? So it's... Can you act like you don't know me? It's so great. Right? But like, and in front of kids that I've met before.

Yeah. And so, but... This is the most petty version of Jim Gaffigan I've ever seen. In front of kids I've met. So the final thing we do is working out for a cause. I think we should give to Georgetown Scholarship Program. Yes. And then we should link to them in the show notes since we raised a ton of money for them.

And it's such a good organization. Yeah. You know, it's such a good organization. Yeah. You know, it's just making some steps. Yes. You know what I mean? I don't know. What are the answers, Tom? What are the answers?

Is your name Mike or Tom? We have the answers. I'm Mike. Mike. Okay. I go by Mike currently. We're bigs. Jim, congrats on the special.

Thank you so much. Thanks for coming by the studio. So fun. And this is, I'm excited for people to see Dark Pale. So good. Thanks so much. Appreciate it. Thank you.

And we'll wrap it up. That was the perfect ending. Yeah, it's a great ending. This is the ending where people are like, wait, they ended it like that? It's great. Working it out, because it's not done. Working it out, because there's no hope. That's going to do it for another episode of Working It Out.

You can follow Jim on Instagram, at Jim Gaffigan. Go see Jim on tour. Watch his special on Prime Video. He's a phenomenal comic. Is it safe to say legendary comic? He's a legendary comic. Our producers of Working It Out are myself, along with Joseph Birbiglia and Peter Salamone,

associate producer Mabel Lewis, consulting producer Seth Barish, assistant producer Gary Simons, sound mix by Ben Cruz, supervising engineer Kate Balinski, special thanks to Mercer Hurwitz and Josh Upfall, as well as David Raphael and Nina Quick, Mike Insigliere's Mike Berkowitz,

special thanks to Jack Antonoff and Bleachers for their music. Special thanks to J. Hope Stein, my wife, the poet, and of course our daughter Una, who built the original radio fort made of pillows. Thanks most of all to you who are listening. If you're enjoying the podcast, please rate and review it on Apple Podcasts. You know what's the most helpful?

If you have three minutes, go on Apple Podcasts, rate and review. Actually, you don't even have to review. Just say what your favorite episode is. And that way, if people just stumble upon the podcast, there's 100 plus episodes. Then they know what to go to. Thanks most of all to you who are listening.

Tell your friends, tell your enemies. Maybe you're friends with the Pope. Maybe you're enemies with the Pope. Maybe you're enemies with the Pope. Either would be phenomenal. We got to get this out to the Pope. We got to get the Pope to be working out jokes. See you next time, everybody. We'll be working it out.