Mike Birbiglia's Working It Out - 105. Kate Berlant: The Comedy Special That Almost Didn’t Come Out

Episode Date: August 14, 2023

Mike lost his mind laughing at Kate Berlant’s new comedy special “Cinnamon in the Wind.”  So he dropped her a line and asked her to discuss it on the podcast. Mike and Kate discuss working with director Bo Burnham, the looseness of the special, and how the special almost didn’t come out. They discuss Kate’s solo show “Kate” which was an off-Broadway sensation and is now heading to London at the exact same time that Mike brings “The Old Man & The Pool." They talk about Kate’s comedy special with John Early called “Would It Kill You To Laugh?” that was just nominated for an Emmy. They discuss how Kate has always been suspicious of “cool” people but now- between her three hit shows and appearing in movies by Quentin Tarantino and Boots Riley- she may have become one of them.Please consider donating to DIGDEEP

coolness has always been this thing that I've always been, like since I was a child, like suspicious of and also on the outside of. And like, so I can, I think about like adolescent or previous attempts to be perceived as hip or cool are always like treacherous. So you've always been suspicious of cool, but then what's funny, you know, the irony of that is-

I want to be cool. Well, you're cool now. Oh God. You're cool to all the kids, the young kids coming up doing sketch comedy and stand-up. They're like, oh, she and John are the cool ones. I fucking did it.

Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha. That is the voice of the great Kate Berlant. This is Mike Birbiglia. You're listening to Working It Out. This is a fun episode. There's a whole bunch of stuff that I want to recommend about Kate Berlant. She is a comedian, an actor. She's been in tons of stuff.

I saw her solo show in New York City. It's called Kate, directed by Bo Burnham. It's going to London at the same time that Old Man in the Pool is in London in September. You can see both of them. You could make it a doubleheader, a London doubleheader. Kate's show is also going to be in Los Angeles. That was breaking news on the show today. How this conversation came about is that Kate came out with a bunch of specials lately.

Actually, two. One is a two-person sketch special on Peacock with John Early that just got nominated for an Emmy. It is so funny and so strange. We talked about that a bit today. And then I've just been watching a lot of Kate Burlant comedy lately. I watched this one called Cinnamon in the Wind on Hulu. And my wife, Jenny, and I laughed so hard. And so we talked about it on the episode today. Kate is very candid about how that special almost didn't come out or it was held. Like they filmed it a bunch of years ago. It was also directed by Bo Burnham. And the network didn't necessarily want to release it. I'll leave it at that.

You'll hear her describe it today. It is such a bizarre story to me. It's such a weird show business story because that special is a riot. Like I could not urge you to see a comedy special more than I would urge you to see that special. So that's Cape Berlant. And then the London thing, like I said,

I'm going to be there. I'm also gonna be in Edinburgh, a Fringe Festival next week. I'm doing six performances of The Old Man and the Pool at the Edinburgh Fringe. I've never been there before. I'm so excited. Then I'm going to London to the West End at the Wyndham's Theatre in London

for 30 performances of The Old Man and the Pool. And then I'm performing Christmas Parmesan in Boston for Christmas. And we just added a fifth and sixth performance at the Wilbur Theater, one of my favorite theaters in the world. And that's a new hour. That is what I'm working on next. I love the new hour. It's so fun.

I think you're going to love it. But you've got to go see Kate in London or in Los Angeles or anywhere else that she is. You can follow her at Kate Berlant on Instagram. I think you're going to love this conversation today. She's a hilarious comedian and actor and just one of the funniest people to be around. Enjoy my conversation with the great Kate Berlant.

We're working it. I texted you the other day because Jenny, my wife Jenny and I saw Cinnamon in the Wind and laughed so hard. Thank you so much. People say that to you every day, probably? No. No?

People come to me and go, your special Cinnamon in the Wind, which flew under the radar. My wife and I were dying last night. No, that's why I was so thrilled when you texted me that. So thank you. Has it flown under the radar? Well, first of all,

it's sort of a weird situation because I shot it. Bo Burnham directed it. We shot it in 2019. Wow. 2019. Yeah. Those are the days.

I know. I had so much ahead of me. And the, I mean, if I may, FX buried it. They buried it. They just were like, no. They just like wouldn't air it. And it was very, it was strange because it was like, no one's going to care either way. You know what I mean?

They wouldn't air it. They owned it, but they didn't air it? They just like wouldn't air it. They wouldn't give us any answers. It was very just like. Do you think they didn't like it? Yeah. How do I put this?

Yep. I think that's exactly what it was. Yeah. I think they just like didn't have confidence in it or something. To the listeners, as this is, I'm saying this and it's an understatement. The idea of someone

seeing the special that I saw, Sentiment in the Wind, and saying, we don't think this is either A, funny, or B, worth airing, is extraordinary to me.

Like extraordinary. Like I don't, I don't want to know that person. Yeah. Me neither. But did you, like, re-edit it or something? No, no, no. Like, there's no changes?

And I thought, I'm like, well, I'm sneaking under the, you know, overcoat of Bo Burnham here. I'm like, I get you might not give a shit about me, but what about the guy, that guy? He, like, runs comedy. Yeah, so it was just sort of, it was unfortunate because it was just like. He's like the avatar of comedy, right? Yeah. No, he's like, Hey, do you know Bo? Like you say, Hey, I'm a comedian. I go, do you know Bo? Yes. Yes. Yeah. So, I mean, I don't know. I mean, I guess they thought it was a little weird or hard. I don't know. I don't know. And here's

what's really funny. Now I'm just really, I'm just going there hard. No, but it's, it's also this thing, which I always return to with like making funny. Now I'm just going there hard. Yeah, yeah, go there. No, but it's also this thing which I always return to with making things. It's sometimes just liberating. I was talking to my friend recently who was working on something and freaking out about it. And I was like, if this helps at all, no one cares. Right. About which part?

That it was buried? No, no, no. Making something. It's like at the end of the day, no one really cares. Right. It's like your own experience of making something. But no like at the end of the day, no one really cares. It's like your own experience of making something, but no one really cares. Right.

Like, I mean, like, art is powerful and we all love things, but like if the thing, so what I'm saying is, so when it finally came out, I was like, I'm probably going to get

a Harry and David's basket from FX. I was like, here comes the champagne. And then it was, of course, just like they told us it was coming out

like three days before it came out no yeah they were like it's actually gonna drop next Wednesday which was weird because it was also

the week that my show Kate was opening up off Broadway so it was just like alright so it was just very it was like there was like

no ceremony which is fine how much of a ceremony do I need a little bit maybe yeah maybe a Harry and David's

bath how about a little Harry and David's how about a candle yeah and so I was like anticipating the gift that never arrived. And then of course it just went out and never heard from them. It's fine.

Who cares? God bless them. I'm still available. I still want to work with you. Yes. Available and want to work. I know. You can make it up to me.

Harry and David's basket. Yeah. I bet they hear this and they get Harry and David's basket for you. That would be really cool. I hope so. And then Bear the Hatchet. With Bo, now that's two projects with him because he did Kate, the solo show you did, which I love, and he did Cinnamon in the Wind.

Are you going to do more? We'll see. You don't know. Life is long. Yeah. Yeah. But it's a deep relationship. I've done five solo shows with Seth Barish.

It's a deep relationship. Oh, yeah. You have to really go there with him a lot. Yeah. Totally. Because the thing that I love about that special so much is that it does the thing, and I was texting this to you, it's like it does the thing that you hope specials do,

which is it feels like you're in the room where they filmed it. And specials never feel like that. That's so nice. Okay, just to give context for the listeners, the titular line, Cinnamon in the Wind, is life, I'm quoting Kate, life, like this show is, Cinnamon in the Wind, it's just whoosh. You know, it's gone. And you're just there left cursing the air like there was spice here once.

Oh, my God. That's all it is. It's hard to admit, but you know, life is short. I like that. Life is short. And then my favorite line, write that down. Oh, my God. Do you hear it in your mouth scripted?

Wow. But the cinnamon in the wind line, what I love about it is, you know, it's, you know, life is short. I like that. Life is short. Write that down. It's like, to me, that encapsulates your sense of humor and the aesthetic of the show, which is like, you're saying things that are, of course, true, but they're with a layer of irony, but also they're true. It's a pretty good metaphor.

Yeah, yeah. Oh, my God. Do you feel like that with, because your stuff so often is between Kate and Cinnamon in the Wind, it's like parodying comedy or it's parodying even when you and John went on The Tonight Show and did like a five-minute set about getting ready to do your set.

Like so much of it's this meta kind of we're not going to do comedy. And it's like what you're making fun of is kind of me. You're like earnestly like doing a solo show. Do you think you'll ever come over to the dark side and do a solo show where you reveal yourself? I know, right? Do you think about that? Well, that's what finds it to me because I've always been like,

I see those things as being very revealing. Like I feel very naked and vulnerable. In your show? Yeah, yeah. No, I get that. Yeah, so I'm like, well, this is, particularly with my stage show, Kate, it was my first time doing a truly scripted,

written thing that wasn't relying on improv. There's no improvisation in the show. I mean, there's a couple parts. There are two parts that change every night a little bit. I mean, I don't want to give anything away, but it kind of can't be, right? Because there's technical elements that you're stuck in. No, totally, it can't be, which was really liberating

because I'm just really used to, with stand-up, of course there's material that I repeat, of course. But a lot, when I approach stand-up, so much of it for me is still based on things changing in the moment and finding things as they happen, which is really exciting but also really scary. And I get very nervous before shows. Yeah, I do too.

When I'm in that position where I'm hoping something's going to happen that I can't anticipate yet or control. Whereas with the stage show, I'm nervous but in a different way. And there is such, I can kind of relax until the structure of the show. It's really liberating. Why do you think, I've been thinking about this a lot lately, the idea of nervousness, because a lot of times

people will say to me, do you get nervous before shows? Because I think that's the thing that people associate with live performance. Of course, I would never do that, because it's so nerve-wracking. And I think I kind of came to grips with the fact recently that I do get nervous, but for years I was like, nah.

Oh my God, yeah. And now I'm like, no, I do. But what do you think makes you nervous about getting on stage what's the worst outcome not being funny yeah yeah um and feeling is it on you or is it on the audience me on you yeah embarrassment yeah and just like I'm trying I had I had kind of a weird set so I haven't been doing stand-up because the last my life has really been this show. For sure, yeah.

I wrote it for nine months and I was performing it. So I just – I wasn't doing stand-up. And I'm now like, oh, right, I want to get back into stand-up. And so I've been doing some shows. And I had – I also realized that I have a very high pain tolerance. Like I can come off stage and be like – I think some people would be like, that was bad. And I'll be like, I had fun up there. I think I do strangely, I'm able to take it or something. I mean, it hurts, but also I'm not in a position not to brag.

It's not like I'm eating shit all the time. But I'm thinking about this because I had a show at the comedy store in the main room the other night. And it was like, I was like, this is interesting. And I might have bombed, but I didn't really feel it that way. But I was like, this makes me nervous.

Like there, I think for me, if it's like, there are moments where I feel like I really connected and I liked what I was doing and they liked it. Yeah. But then in that, because that environment is like, I'm not usually in like conventional clubs. Yeah. But I've had great experiences in conventional clubs, but I've had great experiences

in conventional clubs, whatever. But it was like a table of Navy SEALs and I found myself being like, the Navy SEALs, do they even let Jews in? And then they're like dying. I'm like, why am I doing, like, what am I doing? I'm like debasing myself. I'm like trying to like contort to like give them what I imagine they want from me. But I think also I just, again, I'm just out. I just have not been doing standup in so long that it feels kind of suddenly foreign or extra nerve wracking, but definitely didn't answer your question. You were saying, what is the nervousness? Yeah. What's the worst case scenario? The worst case scenario. Oh, cause here's the thing about if there is something true, where if I feel like I'm doing something that is funny, that feels exciting to me,

usually it will work. Yeah. And what doesn't feel good is if I doing something that is funny, that feels exciting to me, usually it will work. And what doesn't feel good is if I do something that I don't love and it doesn't work. Yeah. Then it's like, why did I do that? Right. Like when you feel yourself not actually finding something new or you feel like- Like in other words, you don't even stand behind the concept and then you performed it for strangers. Yeah. You do something that just feels, you're like, oh behind the concept and then you performed it for strangers.

Yeah, you do something just feels you're like, oh, I'm like not in this, but I'm doing it because it worked or something. And then they're like, they don't like it. You're like, oh, yeah, of course you can feel it too. Yeah. What's the weirdest thing that you've had in relation to an audience member, because when you walk into the audience of the show, Kate, there's a sign that says, don't look at me. Oh, yeah. And you're sitting there.

This was a very last-minute joke that was making Beau and I laugh like two days before we opened, which was like, it was always like, okay, I'm going to sit in the entryway in sort of a gallery environment, and I'm going to be sitting with a spotlight on me and it was like i should have a sign around my neck or something it's like what should the sign say it's like i should say ignore me just like so it just like made us laugh and it was like yeah okay like let's make the sign ignore me and then it just like stuck and so and that just

um it's like immersive but it's also like you know about this woman trying to create this experience and it's like not really the thing. Like it's like, like I had, some people would come in, like I remember hearing there was like some people that came in and they were like, oh, like it's serious or something. Like they actually, I was like, God bless them. They're like, oh, like, and then this like sweet, like older one was like, that's the artist, you know,

like whispering around and people were really reverent of me. Like me sitting there with the, like, so, and then of course some people just immediately start laughing or they would just like they would feel the absurdity of it but yeah there's a real there was a real um yeah this like person that i'm playing this version of myself is like trying to create this experience for people but it's just not really um working or something like it's like almost the thing but it's not and well also it's this thing which was always my self-consciousness with my show is like to be clear i'm not making

fun of modern art it's like that's been the oldest like that joke is beyond over it's like but there is something and there is something in me that genuinely does want to give people an experience yeah take them out of the everyday or make people, you know, in awe of something. Of course. And you do. And I can get this out of you. This gives away too much of the show. But it's like you have a running thing of you're going to cry.

Yeah. Can I say that? I don't know if that's like in the reviews or not in the reviews. I think it's okay. But like it's a compelling thing to watch a human being try to cry. Well, it's like, yeah, I think just the, you know, I'm an actor. Yes. Not now because of the strike, but you know.

But yeah, there's something just deeply embarrassing about being an actor. There's something deeply embarrassing about like being on stage at all. Yeah, of course. I think about when I was starting stand-up when I was 17 and like it was still kind of like a weird thing to do it. Yeah. And like even just in the time that's passed, comedy now is like, it's like so popularized in this way

where I just think people have less shame about it. I think they should have more. It is mainstream. I always say that to people because people speak to me as though these people who are, you know, the Bert Kreischer's of the world or the, you know, or even Mulaney being in tabloids or something. Yeah. They talk about it like they know him or whatever. And I'm just like, it didn't used to be like this. Yeah, yeah. Like when these people, like Mulaney's an interesting example

because it's like when he got into comedy, it wasn't the kind of art form where your divorce would be mentioned in the tabloids. Oh my God, of course. I mean, my God. your divorce would be mentioned in the tabloids. Oh my God, of course. I mean, my God. And so I think it's kind of a shocking turn for people like you and I and others

who are just in this thing. I can't even go to the grocery store, Mike. Exactly. I'm being swarmed. It's from your show. It's sometimes, I'll admit it, hard being the only artist in the room. Oh yeah.

My brother Joe goes, I find this statement exceptionally bold. Yeah. Well, then I say the only true artist. Yes. Oh, yeah. My brother Joe goes, I find this statement exceptionally bold. Yeah. Well, then I say the only true artist. Yes. Yeah, yeah. Yes, yes. Do you ever get people who don't get the joke of you in your shows?

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I'm sure they're there, but I don't. To me, I identify primarily. I just want to be silly. Right. That's always the goal. Right. Like that's always the goal. Right. And that's always, yeah, so.

But what if people don't get that it's silly? I can't help those people. But you did this thing on the Today Show that it was so good. You were talking about you were in Don't Worry Darling and you're great. It's a great movie. I talked to Nick Kroll about it on here too. It's a great movie. I talked to Nick Kroll about it on here too.

But you're talking about how the actors were intimidated by you because they're such big fans of yours. And you're saying it with like Harry Styles. You're like, it was really hard for him to be around me. Which I'm like, it's almost too obvious a joke. It's not though. It's so funny because there's this moment where they don't quite's almost too obvious a joke. It's not, though. It's so funny because there's this moment where they don't quite know if it's a joke. And I'm like, I do not have that.

I can't do that. Do you ever get nervous right before and go like, oh, I can't? You thought of that before you went on. Yeah, I mean, I think, no, something like that to me, it's almost, yeah, it's just so absurd. It's like, Harry Styles is nervous to be around me. Yeah. He was breaking on set.

It's like, no, he wasn't. I mean. Are you intimidated by any of these people you work with? So it's like, you get cast in, like, phenomenally cool projects. Like, you're in Abbie Jacobson's show, you're in Tarantino's movie, you're in Tarantino's movie, you're in Olivia Wilde's movie, like all these things

where it's like these awesome directors. Like, is there a point at which you're just like, oh, actually, this is unnerving?

Oh, yeah. I mean, the Tarantino of it all, and to be clear, I had a scene. You know, I'm not trying to, but let's be clear.

Once Upon a Time in Hollywood. Once Upon a Time in Hollywood. Once Upon a Time in Hollywood. Boots Riley is another one. Yes, yes. No, it's, I mean, the Tarantino thing is like a joke. I mean, it's like a life dream. It's weird, right? It's like a gun to my head.

Like, who are the people you would kill? You know, it's like. Yeah. And so that was. Who would be those people you'd kill? Oh, you know. I mean, who are the big dream? You know, I'm a normal person.

I'm like Tarantino, Paul Thomas Anderson. Yeah. Of course, like just those two. No, there are plenty, but I mean, it's like, yeah. But who would you kill? Who would you kill to work with them? Oh, yeah. Who would you murder?

Who would I kill? Yeah. Anyone, I don with them? Oh, yeah. Who would you murder? Who would I kill? Yeah. Anyone I don't know. No, no, it can't be. It can't be someone you don't know. It has to be specific people you've at least met. Yeah, yeah. You've at least met.

Right, right, right. Are they dying nonviolent? Yeah. It has to be like Patrick Borelli or someone who we know. Oh, my God. I wouldn't even shoot a dog. But when you were working with people like Tarantino or Boots Riley or whoever,

do you have a moment of like, A, are you nervous? B, afterwards, do you feel better in some ways? I worked with Tom Hanks and Mark Forrester on A Man Called Otto. And actually, afterwards, I feel more confident as an actor because I'm like, well, I'm not afraid of that anymore. Yeah, I think there was a thing. The Tarantino job was funny because my character is not funny.

Of course, all his scripts and dialogue are so funny. So it's like there's no escaping that it's comedy or whatever. But it's like my character wasn't. I had to look in my, I remember being in my trailer. I was like looking at myself in the mirror and I was like, you need to calm down. Don't cross your eyes. Relax. It's not about you.

It was like, serve the script. Cause I had the urge to be like, look what I can do, daddy. You know, like I wanted to like, but it's like, no, I'm just like there to like execute this. It's like, it's, it's like a simple scene. It's a clear scene. Like, don't make it about you. But of course I have the desire to like,

because that was also just a straight up audition, like cattle call audition. Like he didn't know me as a comedian or anything like that. Did you put yourself on tape? I went in and that's actually what that thing did because that's the only job I've ever gotten from a straight up audition. Really? Where the person didn't know me. And I'm not exaggerating's the only job I've ever gotten from a straight up audition.

Really? Where the person didn't know me. And I'm not exaggerating, the only one. And I've been on 4,600 auditions. Yeah. And I just always know I won't get it. And I'm like, well, the job isn't to get the job, it's to make a fan, you know, or whatever. So I went into that where it was like, oh, you know, went in 10,000 like women in the waiting room. The walls are paper thin, you can hear what everyone's doing.

I had to go out in the hall and be like, because I just was like, I'm going to just start parroting what I'm hearing through the wall. And then went in, did it once, left, thought, there's no way I got it. And then I got the call. So cool. So yeah, but I was very nervous,

but he was so unbelievably lovely and generous. And like he knows what that experience means for me. He knows I'm walking onto like a crazy movie set there for two days. Like he understands that this is a big deal for me. Yeah. What I've heard about working with him is also like he loves making movies so much. Well, that's, yeah. I mean, he was, that's exactly the thing.

I was like, this, he is like laughing all day. Like truly like loving it. It was just like, thank God. My God. He loves what he does. Yeah. Dude loves what he does. Just, yeah.

Loving it. Loving it. Another thing, yeah, I heard him say, watches his own movies. If it's on TBS, Pulp Fiction's on. I love that. I'll watch it. Jackie Brown.

So cool. That rules. He loves movies. Yeah. Dude loves movies. He loves his own movies. He's really good at it. He should.

Yeah. Do you, you're thought of and described by the Times and other places as like a trailblazer

of like modern alt comedy that people are like doing versions of you. The Times and other places as like a trailblazer of like modern alt comedy that people are like doing versions of you. The Times, folks, not my words. Not my words, yeah. Not Kate's words. But if The Times says it. What do you, when you see people doing you, so to speak,

good, bad, how do you feel about it? No, oh my God, don't do this to me no no i'm like completely keep it in by the way keep it in by the way we're all it's it's like the history of everything it's like doing you know it's like when i was thinking i was thinking about when i was starting stand-up and i was doing like a sarah silverman eugene merman like mashup okay or i was doing it's like oh you're early standard. Yeah, like, it's like. Yeah, we all are. I was doing Mitch Hedberg and Greg Geraldo.

Yeah, it's like, you know, finding your fucking shtick. Yeah. Yeah. So you don't begrudge people that when you're like, you're doing me. It's, of course, as you can imagine. That's actually me. If someone says to me, oh, this is a – it's like truly it's a flattering move on. All right.

It's also like if someone can do – no one can take your thing. If they can, you're fucked. That's true. So it's sort of like, well – That's true. You have a great joke about how your influences are pottery and small batch granola and in such small quantities that they resist capitalism and Carlin. Oh my God.

Which is great. Thank you. What are your actual influences in addition to the small batch granola? I mean, yeah, when I was like starting to get really obsessed with comedy, I was actually you, you know, the Invite Them Up like double CD I was obsessed with? Oh yeah, I love that album. Yeah, and the double CD. They were chill. Double CD, yeah. And I actually met Bobby Tisdale the other night

for the first time and I was like so starstruck. I was like 30 seconds of stand-up. I was like, I love Bobby. Like devoured all, I was so obsessed with that scene. Like there were Fifi like everyone that was coming out of that and Variety Shack and like Stella. Oh oh my gosh and all yeah you're on that album yeah it's like it's like yeah it's like everyone i was just like i just devoured it i was so obsessed so that

scene was huge for me that thing you could never have guessed at the time i remember with jack vaughn was a producer of it for comedy central records he's like i'm doing a double album of invite them up and i thought like yeah sure you could do that it was like one of the most prescient things i've ever seen happen in comedy which is like taking a scene a downtown east village scene at that moment with eugene merman and all these folks and and just capturing it on album putting it out as a double album it's really like varied and all kinds of bizarre stuff but like you know it's Mulaney's on it and Aziz is on it and all these people who ended up having big comedy careers but it's like when they were starting yeah it's a really good album I really

can't wait to go back and listen to it because i think it's the sort of thing where like music i'll listen to it and just know every like lyric like it'll just immediately return did you have it like that was poetic well did you have it like well andy kaufman is like always credited as like the forefather or any common and or steve martin yeah steve martin like i yeah, I was obsessed with Steve Martin. Did he come to your show? How do I put this? No. He was shooting, you know, his show and, you know, people were busy.

No, no, of course, of course. I would love to, I will be doing it in LA. Tickets aren't on sale yet. Oh, you're doing it in LA? But I'm announcing it here. You've got the scoop. We're breaking news? Breaking news.

Mid-January to mid-February, Pasadena Playhouse. Oh, we're breaking news. We're breaking news. This is huge. I guess I can. Why not? We love to break news here. Tickets aren't even on sale yet.

I'll be posting, but yeah. When is it going to be? So the show will be mid-January to mid-February. Nice. At the Pasadena Playhouse. If you've ever been there, beautiful theater. I workshopped sleepwalk with me there. I've never been there.

Oh, this is one thing I wanted to ask because Mabel pointed out, who works on the show, that there is an analogy to what you do and what you and John do with your sketch show, which I love also. Oh, thank you. Holy cow, it's on Peacock. Thank you, it is on Peacock.

So good. And The Lonely Island. Mm-hmm. And like, because Jorma Ticone was on this show and like, um and the lonely island and like the lonely like because you're on this show and like we talked about this idea of like that that sketch show is so strange like to the point of like i want to say you're beavers going through tsa are. You want to say it because that's all it is, my friend. And like, like, it's so,

like the work that you and John do together is so absurd that as a fan of it, I'm just asking like, what's too absurd to pitch to John?

Like, do you ever go like, I shouldn't pitch that. I know, that was like something that actually our director who we collaborate with a lot, Andy DeYoung, he was the one who actually said, I think like, I think I was walking to the airport with him

and he was like, yeah, like you guys should just be like beavers at the airport or something. I was like, beavers at the airport, print it. Like it's like, which often happens with us and myself. Like it's like first thought, best thought, like whatever. Just like, whatever. It's just like, all right, that It's like first thought, best thought, whatever. Just like whatever. It's just like, all right, that's it. First thought, best thought.

And just not going into it too much. Just kind of like right there. There's a lot of credence to first thought, best thought. Yeah. But I think one of the, yeah, the balance between absurdity and sincerity, that's always the sort of, the stuff that I like the most kind of has both at the same time an equal measure. Which is the only way you're kind of given

the leverage to do the other thing. Yeah. I believe women have the right to steal cosmetics. Are you kidding me? We're forced into a system where we have to constantly pay for creams, powders and lotions. This is a great

example of, great joke. In my mind, I'm going, that's illegal. Yeah, yeah. I don't actually support that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's hilarious.

Yeah. I feel like when you can convince an audience member to laugh at a thing that is entirely incorrect, it's like you win. Yeah. And it's true. I mean, I still feel that way. Yeah, it's like you win. Yeah. And it's true. I mean, I still feel that way. Yeah, it's true.

Yeah. There's truth. Right, it works because there's a greater truth to it. Well, also because I used to actually be kind of a klepto. Oh, really? I mean, I used to actually still make up. To be clear. Send this to, wait, Deadline?

Can we send this to Pete Hammond? Not from small businesses. And I talk about this with them. We're talking about big, you know, Sephora, CVS, they can take it. But it is, yeah. Yeah, the makeup industrial complex. Yeah, taking this.

Fuck them. Yeah. I pay for it now. Still tempted at times. Yeah. Wait, so you stole when? Gives you a real kick. Yeah, yeah.

You steal in high school? A little later. Let's just say I'd be, not much later, but maybe 20 years old, hit up the Sephora at Union Square. Oh, okay. Get some Dior foundation, go to CPK. Okay, okay. Say no more.

Say no more. This is called the slow round. Do you remember a period in your life where you were kind of like an inauthentic version of yourself? Like you're like a totally different Kate? I think I'm living it now. Oh, an inauthentic version. Yeah. I was kind of like, I didn't really, I sort of could move freely between all groups.

Yeah. Because I was just like, really was kind of just like the clown. Yeah. It's like coolness has always been this thing that I've always been like, since I was a child, like suspicious of and also on the outside of. And like, so I can, I think about like adolescent or previous attempts to be perceived as hip or cool are always like treacherous. So you've always been suspicious of cool.

But then what's funny, you know, the irony of that is you're cool now. Oh, God. You're cool to all the kids, the young kids coming up doing sketch comedy and stand-up. They're like, oh, she and John are the cool ones. I fucking did it. I guess it's cool to be yourself but uh but the end but to what you were saying though

I'm like oh yeah I can like remember those attempts or just just the inherent like which I think everyone goes through like of course like probably did you um

do you remember a time in your life when you ran away like physically ran away I think I remember doing the very kind of cartoonish like I'm leaving when I was a child like with a suitcase but for real yeah like packing up I had like a Mickey Mouse like patent leather suitcase and I was like fuck you you know and like kind of packed up to leave wow didn't leave of course but Strangest neighbor you had growing up? Okay, so I, when I, so my house growing up, I lived, I mean, it's still where I grew up, my parents' house.

There's an old age home directly across the street. And so there would always be like, I remember I would hear in the middle of the night, like, just like the screams of someone like lost in like the deepest madness. hear in the middle of the night, like just like the screams of someone like lost in like the deepest madness. Like, like I, like the horror, like the deep, like when you're a child and you hear like a guttural scream from like an old man and it's like, like it was like the most terrifying sounds that would come out of the old age home. And so I was always very aware of that. And then of course there was like a, there was a guy who used to sit on the corner in his wheelchair,

and he would blast the radio at like 4 a.m. Wow. And we would hear it. It would be so loud in the house. Yeah. And I remember my parents were like, can we get him headphones? Can we get him headphones? I remember that was it.

It was like, we want him to be able to do that and go out. But can we just, you know. What's your worst or best nickname growing up? I went by Kitty like my whole life. That's sweet. And my parents still call me Kitty. Kitty. And like people that knew me from when I was a kid, they still call me Kitty.

Kitty. Yeah. When I started in comedy, my mentor, my writing mentor in college tried to convince me to change my name. To what? One of the ones that I considered for real was Mickey Birbiglia. And the reason why I was... That's incredible. This guy, John Glavin, who's brilliant, he was like,

then you get Mickey, you get the Irish, and then Birbiglia, you get the Italian. He's like, I'm telling you. No, no, for real. No one's going to sink this act. He tried to really make a case for Mickey Birbiglia. Mickey Birbiglia. Yeah, but I think... I think Mickey's a great name.

Mickey's a fun name. And like, I just think, you know, it's never too late for Kitty if you want to go with it. I know, I know. Kitty Berlant.

I mean, Kitty Berlant has like a black and white classic comedy quality. Yeah. Kitty Berlant here. I know. What if it was wrong with me? I should have stuck.

Kitty Berlant, she's got it. I can't do it now. Her career's on fire. Yeah. Ladies and gentlemen, Kitty Berlant, she's got it. I can't do it now. Her career's on fire. Yeah. Ladies and gentlemen, Kitty Berlant. Well, I don't even know

if you have this. What's the biggest assumption people get wrong about you? I think people think that I'm, this is a weird thing to say, like people are always like, you're nice or something.

I'm like, yeah, what? Like, I think there's like a, I think sometimes people, maybe less so, but I think sometimes people think of my act or something as somehow like impenetrable or like, like not like,

again, like maybe like not vulnerable or not like in the room or something. Like I'm like, I think the thing of like. Oh, they're surprised when you are nice because your act is so like, kind of like edgy in a certain way. Maybe they're kind of like arrogant

or like impossible to like pin down or something where it's like, no, pin me down. It's like, I can talk. I can have like a, I can have a grounded conversation with someone. Which I think is a comedian thing too. People just think that you're like, or sometimes people are like,

I can't tell if you're making fun of me. I'm like, all I said was, how are you? Right. No, I think that's interesting, because even I had that. Like, when you and John came to Old Man in the Pool, like, I fear your judgment, not because of our conversations offstage,

but because onstage, you're just like, you're a knife, you know what I mean? You're incisive, and you're, you know. So I'm thinking in my head when you're just like a knife. You know what I mean? You're incisive. So I'm thinking in my head when you're watching, like, oh, Kate likes us. Oh, my God. But that's so what it is whenever a comedian or someone you admire and think is good comes to see you.

It's terrifying. Oh, yeah. Yeah. When I came to your opening night in New York, it was like murderer's row of every comedian ever. Oh, my God. Did that throw you at all? Because it was like, I want to say it was like half the cast of Saturday Night Live was there.

I think Bowen Yang was behind me. I think like, I want to say Ilana Glazer was there. Like, it just seemed like everyone ever was there. Yeah, it was so fun. It was really nice. Yeah, I mean, I think, yeah, of course, performing. Yeah, it's nerve-wracking, absolutely. Yeah.

Absolutely. What's a song that makes you cry? Oh, God. What is it? Okay. Neil Young always makes me cry or pulls on me in that way. Heart of Gold? Yeah.

Yeah, or it's just funny, imagine that I actually have never heard a Neil Young song. Like, yeah, that one or the man who wouldn't go away. Yeah, yeah. Up on the mountain or something. Yes, yeah.

What's the best piece of advice anyone's given you that you used? I think, well, we're talking so much about my show, Kate, and Beau, who, you know, was my director and worked with me on that so intensely, like he would just kind of tell me, like, tell the story. If I would get absorbed in like different details or performance notes, it's just like, tell the story. It's like very difficult.

That kind of simplicity is hard to achieve or just to remember. It's just like, yeah, like just tell the story. Yeah, I talk about that when I'm working with Alex Edelman on his solo show, Just For Us right now. And like we often talk about how it's just the story. Stories are the star. And sometimes that's enough. Yeah.

I always think about Frances McDormand winning, was it a Golden Globe for Olive Kittredge? I don't know, but I love that miniseries. Never read the book.

Still plan to. But she, of course, in classic Frances McDormand, she like won her award and she got up there and she was like, she's always a great speaker.

She was like, sometimes a well-told story is enough and just walked away. And I was like, yeah. Oh great speaker sometimes a well told story is enough and just walked away and I was like yeah ain't that the truth sometimes a good story is enough or something yeah

it's the truth or it's like reading David Mamet's book True and False about acting and I love how scathing he is about school and like training I think because I was rejected from acting school so I like his whole thing of like stay out of school. Like I like that. And what he says, he's like so,

he just like eviscerates the idea of like theater school. Oh, interesting. And he's just like, you know, he kind of talks about us keeping you in this like endless like amateurism. Oh, wow. And he talks about acting as being athletic, like this like emotional deep dive of like, who am I? Let me go into my past. And he talks about acting as being athletic, like this like emotional deep dive of like, who am I?

Let me go into my past and let me, he's like, stand still and like speak clearly. And I like that, just sort of that, like the athletic practice of performing and kind of getting more into that and less in the intention or like whatever emotion you're bringing. It's like, it's athleticism. There's a great thing that Mamet said in one of his books

that I remember where he's just like, do the action, say the words. That's probably true and false. And it's just like, yeah. The more I do this over the years, the more that I find that to be true. The other one people say is keep it simple, stupid. Which is just like, keep it simple.

Just do it. Just do the thing. Say the words. Or Carl Jung, we don't solve our problems. We just grow bigger than them. I've been thinking about that. It's like, no, they're always there. It's like you just have to like,

you aim to somehow build a self that can transcend them or that can become bigger. That's super smart. It's just like it's never going to get solved, which I think is helpful. Yeah. Oh, you know what's funny? One of the questions is, what's a group that you were rejected by? And it's acting school.

Acting school. Yeah, holy cow. The big guy. This is inspirational. This is inspirational. Oh, yeah. Rejected. Quentin Tarantino didn't ask what acting school you went to.

Isn't that the truth? And I still mumble. Didn't have the vocal training. No, I, yeah, I applied for acting school. Went to the whole, all the auditions, the whole thing. No, no, no, no. Can you believe it? Well, my question is. Best thing that never happened to me. That's right. believe it well my question is

best thing that never happened to me that's right yeah so my question is you don't okay you get someone's watching this

listening to it you get rejected from acting school what gave you this confidence to be like no no I got this

I was well I was already doing stand up at that point I had started to do stand up so actually I think what did happen is I was rejected from acting school and I was like, okay, well, I'm just going to become a stand-up comedian. Yeah.

And so like my stand-up has always been actorly or something, but I didn't think about – I mean I wasn't acting. I wasn't doing any acting outside of stand-up. No, and also you did something in your control, which is like doing stand-up is just something you can create on your own. Exactly, which is like, that is, I think, that's why it's so liberating. This is called From the Notebook,

where I work out material on the show. I'm moving on. That's one of the things that's odd about this show, is I'll actually do material that's not done. It's unfinished. And so if you have a thought. Hit me with it. Or a tag or really just like an extrapolation like it makes

you think of something else. I'm stagehacker. This is how I dress. One day I walked into a Marshalls and I said, which section do undercover cops shop in? They pointed me to the button down shirts and khakis and here I am. That's perfect. It's really funny. It's based on this true story.

I was in Greenwich Village and I was walking on the sidewalk and a guy passed by me and said to the person walking in front of me, you have an undercover cop behind you. That is so funny. And the guy looked back at me and then I looked behind me. And then I looked back and I go, no, and then I look behind me. And then I look back and I go, no. Which is, of course, what an undercover cop would say. That is so funny. Yeah, so that's fun.

And then the other thing in the universe is, like there's so many drugs in the village. Like it's such a, like this guy came up to me the other day. He goes, hey, you look like you could use some cocaine. Yeah, and I go, no thanks. I've never used cocaine. And he goes, sorry, wrong guy. I was like, oh, classic mix-up.

I love that that still happened in New York City, just coming up to you going, you look like you could use a bump. Yeah, there's a lot of drugs here. Yeah. A lot of drugs. Well, if the drugs aren't here, where the hell are they going to be? Where are they? Where are they? Exactly.

Oh, the other one I have is, I don't have a joke on this yet, but it's like, I've never seen cocaine. That is, yeah. For real. People view me as such a straight arrow that it's never crossed their mind. He should see it. Right, right, right, right. We should show it to him.

Just so you know. Yeah, just so you know what ours looks like. Yeah. Maybe you'd want to get involved. I've had people go like, hey, you know, and I'm like, no, no, yeah. But I've never been like, I've never looked down the barrel. You've never seen a mirror with some lines cut? I've never looked down the barrel of a cocaine cut.

Yeah. I think you might be let down. It would be so, imagining you like seeing cocaine and you like being reduced like a child, like imagining you like dragging your fingers like through like perfectly

like laid out lines just because like, like as if like you'd be reduced to a child like in play, like a play-like relationship. Like if you show a child cocaine, well they do,

they'll like mess up the cocaine with their fingers. Like they'd give you as an adult just being like, like you having fun with cocaine without using it. But I wrote this down. My doctor prescribes one and a half milligrams of Clonavim. Pretty surprised she trusts me with the half cut.

Like a majority of the time, it's like me crumbling a chocolate chip cookie and then like licking up some of the cookie dust. Like that's what it is. Those are tiny pills. I hope that's the right dose. Yeah. Yeah.

It's not a clean break. No. It doesn't feel like a 50-50. Do you have one of the little pill slicers? I do, but it doesn't work that well. No. I don't find. Yeah.

I don't know. And then I wrote, after 20 years of taking this Klonopin, I looked at the side effects because I didn't want to for years. I was like, I have to take it. I don't even want to think about what the side effects are. So I looked, memory loss, depression. Poor motor coordination. I was like, well, that explains, depression. Poor motor coordination. I was like, well, that explains my personality.

Oh, my God. And then this is the part that really worried me. Long-term users may write one-person show. That's good. It's fun. Oh, my God. Yeah. So that's like my little chunk on drugs that I'm working on.

That's good. That's good. That's good. Can you imagine if you stopped the Klonopin to bring back Mickey? You just like had a complete personality shift. Oh, you know what? We'll end on this. The other day we took Una to see her parents and her grandparents in Florida. And it was very sunny.

Jenny and Una both got freckles. And Una said, I think a great joke to Jenny. She goes, Mom, it's like you drank freckle juice except it worked. I was like, ah, so strong. That's so cute. So strong. Damn. A few minutes later, Jenny says to Una,

Una, it's like you drank, frankly, just accept it worked. And Una starts crying. I go, Una, what's wrong? She goes, mom stole my joke. No. I was like, welcome to showbiz, kid. Yeah, yeah. That's deep.

Eight years old. Yeah. Get used to it, girl. Life comes at you fast. Yeah. It's a lot. Yeah. comes at you fast. It's a lot. Yeah. It's a lot. It is a lot. That reminds me of a joke that I've never been able to figure out fully.

But just talking about how the fact that life is consecutive. Yeah. Like you're born and then you're alive the whole time. Yeah. Until you die. Yeah. It's hard. There's no break i take the only the only break is death yes i mean that's why people do drugs or do whatever yes but it's like but it's like

yeah it's either death or drugs you gotta show up every day you think there'll be time off that's all i'm saying you think you get to like maybe live it out in chunks i heard a thing recently a psychologist said, that actually really affected me in a positive way, which is, he goes, every day when you wake up, your tendency is to think of the past, things in the past. And the best thing you can do is just write down things you want to do today. Just focus on it.

And I started doing it so much, so much happier. Yeah. Isn't that a good one? Yeah, totally. No joke. I mean, I write in my journal every morning. I write in my journal before I go to bed at night. Oh, your night one, yeah.

I actually have it because I'm traveling. Like, I haven't done it the last week. I feel the effects. Does it help you therapeutically? Yeah, without even kind of knowing it, I think, because it is just like maintaining habits is really difficult for me, but that's a habit I'm pretty – I write down my dreams every morning. I write my journal every morning.

Oh, that's good. I always say to Jenny, I go, like, if I die, burn the journals. Totally. No, I've been thinking about that. Because sometimes I write them almost for publication. Sometimes I go, God, this is good. Sometimes I'll even like I'll write something and I'll go, no, I find I do this. I'll write something and I'll go, God, this is good. Sometimes I'll even like, I'll write something, I'll go,

no, I find I do this. I'll write something, I'll go, God, listen to myself. To be like, I'm aware. Yeah. For the reader

to be like, Jesus, okay, she's saying, oh my God, listen to me. That's a good bit though. That's a good bit like editorializing your own journals

as you're writing them. Arrows, what an idiot. What's a nonprofit you've given to before? So I, a while ago, gave to this foundation and would like to promote them. They're called Dig Deep, and they provide water to, specifically, I think, the Navajo reservation. But it's like 40% of indigenous communities don't have water. Oh, my gosh.

The donations to Dig Deep go to this attempt to close the water gap in the US. That's fantastic. So we're going to contribute to them. We're going to link to them in the show notes and encourage our listeners to give. I can't thank you enough for coming. Your special is so great.

Your solo show is so great. It's going to be in Los Angeles. It's going to be sold out wall to wall. People should get tickets like right away when it goes on sale. I am going to be doing it in London in September. Oh, me too! No, September, London? I'm doing it in the pool in September. In London? Where are you doing it? I'm doing it at the Soho Mainstage, never been.

That's great. I'm doing it at the Wyndham's down the street. Oh, I love this. I smell a dinner. Yes, there's a dinner in the works. Working it out because it's not done. Working it out Yes, there's a dinner in the works. That's going to do it for another episode of Working It Out. A little postscript for that episode. I went ahead and sent her a Harry and David's basket. Sent her a... Like somebody else should have.

Like somebody else should have. I sent Kate a Harry and David's basket. I hope she enjoys it because, man, is that a great comedy special. Cinnamon in the Wind, it's on Hulu. The producers of Working It Out Are Myself, along with Joseph Birbiglia and Peter Salamone, associate producer Mabel Lewis, consulting producer Seth Barish,

assistant producer Gary Simons, sound mix by Ben Cruz, supervising engineer Kate Balinski. Special thanks to Marissa Hurwitz, Josh Upfall, and David Raphael and Nina Quick. My consiglieres, Mike Berkowitz. Special thanks to Jack Andenoff and Bleachers for their music. Special thanks to my wife, the poet J-Hope Stein.

You can get Little Astronaut in bookstores now. Special thanks, as always, to our daughter, Una, who built the original radio fort made of pillows just three years ago. Three years ago, we're 100 and something episodes into the podcast, which, of course, reminds me that we should thank you most of all, the listeners. If you enjoy the show, rate it

and review it on Apple Podcasts. Why not? It'll take you two minutes and it would mean the world. You could just write what your favorite episode is. We read those comments meticulously. Who knows? We might send you a Harry and David's basket. Thanks most of all to all of you who are listening to our podcast. I hope you're a complet and David's basket. Thanks most of all to all of you who are listening to our podcast. I hope you're a completist.

I hope you've listened to every single one. And if you have, tell your friends, even tell your enemies, that Mickey Birbiglia and Kitty Berlant want you to listen to more Working It Out. We'll see you next time, everybody.