Mike Birbiglia's Working It Out - 130. Rory Scovel: Dare to Be Funny

Episode Date: April 29, 2024

Mike welcomes Rory Scovel, whose special made Mike laugh so hard he spit water all over himself. Rory talks about how telling the truth and being vulnerable on stage led him to his best bits, how his taking up abstract painting is similar to comedy, and how a week of fully improvised stand-up shows gave Rory a new perspective on his career. Plus, the best and most off-the-rails “Working It Out” section the podcast has had yet.Please consider donating to St. Jude Children's Research Hospital

I did six straight nights in Atlanta, fully improvised each night, an hour, six nights in a row. By Saturday, I was so comfortable on stage with nothing and just going up with the idea that I was like, I'm funny. I wouldn't be in this job. I wouldn't be able to buy groceries if I wasn't funny. So I am now able to get past the idea, but am I funny? Where do I stand in this business? I put out a special, but only so many people saw it and it didn't move the needle the way I thought it would. And I've acted in stuff and I thought that would make me America's darling. Here's this new guy.

You know, all of the things that we sort of fantasize about in our head, this moment in time in Atlanta doing this made me go, fuck all of your hopes and dreams about what you think this is and have the most joy in your life knowing you are funny. Why can't that be enough? It's brought me paychecks. So why don't we just be grateful for that? That is the voice of the great Rory Scovel. This is an episode that is a long time in the making, and it's one of my favorites we've ever done. It's an episode that, since we recorded it,

I think about all the time. Like, I think about things that he said about improvising on stage and kind of letting your mind wander and trying different art forms. It really is, it's a special episode. This episode actually has one of my favorite working it out sections where we work out material and then literally, like if you're seeing me on tour right now,

part of my dare about drugs section in my show is from me riffing with Rory in this session, which is sometimes people like Jimmy Kimmel give me a hard time. He's like, you don't really work out jokes on your show when he's on the podcast. But actually like I do. So we work out that.

It's really fun. If you're able to see Rory live on stage, you absolutely should. This past weekend, I was actually live on stage in Chicago at the incredible Chicago Theatre. Thank you so much to everyone who came out. I have upcoming

shows. We added one in Toronto, Atlanta, Connecticut, Charlotte, and then my fall dates are now on sale. San Francisco, Oakland, Philadelphia, Minneapolis, Madison, Milwaukee, Champaign, Indianapolis, Ann Arbor, Detroit, Dayton, Pittsburgh, Louisville, Nashville, Knoxville, Asheville, and Charleston.

All of it's on Burbiggs.com. If you're not on the mailing list, do so. That is where it's at. That's where you get all the pre-sale codes and all of the inside information. I'm so excited for you to hear this episode with Rory. I can't recommend his specials more highly. You can find Rory Scovel, Try Standard for the First Time on Netflix,

Religion, Sex, and a Few Things in Between on Max. Enjoy my conversation with the great Rory Scovel. it's this thing that you have with your comedy that i've where i study jokes i'm obsessed with jokes this whole show's about jokes i don't know where the jokes begin and end in the special and so in that i love that yeah yeah and it's kind of like this thing where i don't even understand the magic of it well first off i appreciate you saying that because that is kind of the target i'm aiming for because that's what i when i'm in the audience i like being at the the confusion i like being at not knowing where it's going. I think it's why I like jam bands and like jazz.

I like not knowing this take of the song. You know, I just, I'm drawn to that. But for me, it's literally just finding the thing that makes me laugh. And for better or worse, I don't see myself as a writer. I see myself as, I think I am just naturally a performer. And I think because of that performance, I can sell, I feel like something in a different way. And if I tried to specifically sit down and write it,

and sometimes I do, and sometimes that works, and sometimes it doesn't. But I don't think that's my strength. I think when I play to my, the thing that is my strength is I can, I like to work with somebody like that and just go, I will stand here and I will fail. And for so many audiences until that one time that I'm like, there, more people got that. And I, the words that I use to get us to that point were this. And so that's what I'll do every time. So my writing comes from the moment of seeing what makes the audience twitch, as opposed to me sitting down and trying to find it when it's just my brain. I kind of am already,

I know that's what we do with jokes anyways, we sort of are taste testing them all the time. But mine start at, I don't have a lot to work with. And so in front of you, I'm going to try to find it. And because that's how I find a joke, I then just go, well, there were 200 people here tonight and I'm pretty sure 150 really liked that joke. So it's got to be in the ballpark. I've got to be close. No, absolutely. And I think that that's weirdly, like, that's what I love about it. It's just what's happening in the room. And I feel like you go to that to the hilt. You go to the farthest extent of that. That's what I enjoy the most. I enjoy the not looking how we got here or looking where this is going to go. But on any given night, how we got here or looking where this is going to go,

but on any given night, whether it's like a coffee shop and I'm just trying to get some repetition in and I'm doing 15 or something, or even like a club that maybe holds 200 or 300 people, I really like being like, this is the room we are in right now and we are the team that is on the field. This is it.

This is right now. And yeah, I might be hoping that this act is coming together and sculpting something. But if anything happens in this room that is even slightly something that we can play with or do, I will invest everything into it to explore and go off on it and see if there's any comedy there. Almost approve to the crowd.

Like, I'm here. I'm not absent. And that's why it's funny because I think sometimes this gets lost in translation, this discussion of like, hey, could you not video my performance? Yeah. And the reason is not because I want to police you from doing blah, blah, blah. It's like, no, literally what you, your version on your phone can never capture what we are all experiencing right now. Yes. It can't get the whole set.

You can't get the whole thing. Yeah. And as a result, you're missing out on like you know four of four out of five senses yeah and even a sixth sense which would be like magic right and like transcendence yeah and it's not going to come through on the the the camera of the phone no and then weirdly like people have the ability to like watch that and just be judgmental of the other people experiencing this thing the thing they weren't even at and also it doesn't it doesn't give us the space to i mean that space is so sacred but to me it's like you're now allowing outside of shooting a special which

is just going to be naturally the space that you the finish line in a way but like they if someone puts it on their phone and then decides to put it out, it's like you've let someone into the clubhouse that the rest of us did not approve. And you thought you were so important that you should be allowed to do it. Yeah. Where if I walked out with my cell phone and I just put it over here on the side and I go, guys, I know I didn't announce this, but I'm going to live stream this. Yeah. An audience would go, well, I mean, all right.

I thought we've, I could, so I could have stayed at home and just got on Instagram and paid nothing and kind of seen that angle. And you're like, yeah, like this isn't for, this is for this moment in time. And we are the ones that are here to experience it. So why don't we say,

oh, the ticket price is the ticket price and the seats are the seat and the venue is the venue because this is the special hour and a half that we're going to spend together and make it an event as opposed to something that can live digitally. I did a show the other night

at the Bell House in Brooklyn, which I love. Yeah. And it was like someone was videoing. I could see, you know, you can see the lenses just stick right out yeah like hey could you not there's a little reflection of the light a little reflection of the light it's like could you not video this and then i literally explained like i'm actually talking right now i'm making jokes about a thing that i'll probably never make jokes about again

yeah and because it's personal in my life and it like, I don't want to share with everybody. I want to share with you. With you, yeah. I want to share with you right now, but like probably no one ever again. Yeah. And like that's special. Yeah. And I feel like also like one of the things about the new special that I feel like does

and is part of what people love about stand-up and live performance is like it feels dangerous like when you're talking about like hypotheticals of you cheating on your wife and i think the reason it feels dangerous is because like you you probably do 10 minutes on it at least like if i was gonna cheat on my wife after the show someone might come up to me or whatever you've got all these it's super funny but it's like of course i think the subtext of that whole that whole thing is like oh he's talking about like the taboo of his life yeah yeah that would be the thing that would be like explosive and incendiary probably yeah did you

when you wrote that bit were you like mentioning your wife so i wrote this bit it's kind of crazy yeah well it went beyond that bit. I mean, it was kind of, I, you know, I imagine you're in the same position where like every now and again, the wife shows up to be like, I'll watch the show. I'll see it.

But it's not like, you know, that the period of our lives where they were there all the time is like, well, naturally you're gonna go. I got it. Let me know when you want me to come back. I'm not going to come to every show. Totally.

It did get to a point where I was working on it. And then when it all was really coming together and I was opening up about sex stuff and even that, like the cheating thing, I was like, I went home and I was like, you're a really big part of this show. It wasn't planned. I go, but it's just kind of where it ended up. And she goes, well, is it like bad? I was like, I think she immediately went to that. Like, what do you, am I in the position of my wife? And I was like, not really. I go, it's, I go, I think it's pretty fair. I was like, but it is also jokes. And also I, she was, her friends came with her to the show. And she was like, every time you did a joke, they would kind of look at me. And if I was laughing, they'd go, okay, we approve of that.

But her friends were also like, hey, just so you know, your wife laughed at all of the jokes. And I go, I think it's because it's not so fun to go on stage. Maybe it can be to go on stage and just go, I gotta let you guys know, I got really lucky. Things are great. And my wife is super supportive and she has been the whole time. Anyways, here's what else is going on. Instead, it's like, well, why don't we talk about the things that are more taboo? And there is a vulnerability to where no matter how good our relationship is going, sex is always going to exist in the space of a discussion of what we both think it is or what we want out of it. Even when we're on the

same page, it's going to be a different place. So it's like, that's the kind of stuff I think the audience relates to more so than, well, yeah, even if it is going great, tell me things that are, you know, how are you an asshole in your marriage? How are you a good guy in your marriage? Yeah, I always think it's like the audience wants to know what's wrong much more than they want to know what's right. Yeah, because I think that's what they relate to. And then they go, oh, good, all right. I feel that way too.

Now I can kind of see it through that lens. And that makes me feel better about my own insecurity. And I found that it's the easiest place to get to if you really just say the truth about your vulnerabilities and your insecurities and audience immediately would be like, yeah, no, me too. I know you think that your life is so bizarre and your secrets are your own, but the moment you say a secret that you think no one else has, you realize the whole theater's like, no, all of us do that. No, completely. And I think like, I think that there's,

this is something, I think you, I think this is something you and I share in common, which is like, neither of us are the quintessential edgy comedians, right?

Like that's a whole bucket. No one's coming to us for that. Yeah, yeah. There's a whole bucket of comedians who are just like, they say the things that no one will say.

A lot of times with those people, you're're like is it really hard to say this or is it just you're saying it because you're technically not supposed to say it is that hard if your persona is the iconoclastic person yeah but but then you have the other version which is is like, you know, which is like the person who never offends anyone or ever says anything that might be objectionable in any way, shape, or form. Yeah. And it's kind of, it's a little bit boring. Yes. And it's a little bit, it's not vulnerable and it's not risky in any way. Yeah. vulnerable and it's not risky in any way yeah and i feel like you and i fall in a similar bucket

which is like people might not realize that there's risk to what we're saying but there actually is considerable risk in in our in our lives yeah and also just telling the the sort of truth of an opinion or a situation and also know that that opinion doesn't have to the content and the opinion don't have to exist in some way where the audience feels like we're trying to push them away to see if we can get them back we're all fully capable of trying to do that but instead of you know even my religious jokes in this special, people were like, oh, that's, you know, that can be a tough topic. And I go, I guess if you see it as a tough topic, I don't. Because if you're deeply religious, I feel like you should still be able to laugh at my opinion.

I shouldn't have affected you in any way. Right. You have a joke that made me laugh out loud alone, which is just like about people going to church. You do that for real? You still do that? It's so like patronizing. But also like what you're saying, which is like, yeah, if you go to church and your faith is strong,

you're not going to be affected by Rory Scovel's like a random thing that you're throwing off, making fun of people going to church. If that shakes you, that's your problem. Exactly. Yes. And I think that's why people go, oh, it's a risque kind of thing. I'm like, I don't know. I think the people that don't go will be like, oh, that's funny. And then the people that do go will be like, well, yeah. There are people that leave comments or message me to say, I am a devout Catholic. And I laughed at the whole thing. And I go, and that's kind of what I hope. I'm not trying to tell you to stop.

I just, I can't, I can't tell you the jokes from a perspective of a guy who goes to church and thinks that I should. I can only tell you the jokes from a guy who doesn't go to church and maybe wants people to maybe stop telling me I should. And the only way I can fight fire in this situation is with a little bit of fire back at you to go, yeah, you're aggressive towards me with the religion, but not all of you are. So let me make a point, but I'll do it in a way where it's like, oh, if you're aggressive, I think I made my point. And if you're not that aggressive, you'll go, I don't know. He wasn't that preachy, you know? Do you have it with like, because you're from South Carolina,

South Carolinians? South Carolinians. Is that what it is? Yeah. Do your fellow South Carolinians get upset when you visit home or whatever about religious stuff like that? The last show of this tour was in my hometown. In Charleston? In Greenville.

Oh, Greenville, sorry. But I did Charleston and then I went to Greenville. So in both back-to-back nights, I did the special as it's out there. And they were into it. The laughs were exactly what I would get anywhere else. And I think it's because, it could be because I'm at a point now where people maybe aren't shocked

by that being my content. Like we know what he'll talk about, whether we agree or disagree. So we bought the ticket. So if he goes into a sex joke or talks about drugs or even a little bit of politics, like it's not out of left field. He's been doing that the whole 20 years,

you know, kind of thing. So- Do you have like kids you grew up with, for example? Like I'm sure some of them go to church. Oh, I think a lot. A lot of the people that are in the, especially in Greenville that were in that audience, I'm pretty sure a lot of them go to church.

And they just laugh off that idea. I think they laugh it off. They're like, yeah, that's Rory. That's what he's like. Yeah. That's how he views what we do. Yeah, exactly. How we view what he does is kind of ridiculous, too.

Yeah, yeah. so you started painting yeah you sell you you paint professionally now yeah paintings are gorgeous. Thanks. And they're for sale on your site. I was curious. Was that a pandemic, baby? Was that a thing that you were? A little bit. Yeah?

Yeah. I kind of started it before because of my kid. At the time, she was four years old and preschool. You were like, you think you're good? Yeah. Step aside. Watch this. Watch this.

But she's finger painting cray, the whole nine yards. And it's like, you're going to do that with your kid. And then in the process of doing that with my kid, I was like, my brain just went to that space of like, why do we ever stop doing this? And also, why do we perceive this as childish? we perceive this as childish. This is like kind of the first thing that you really do in school is like, enjoy your creativity and relish it and showcase it. And we all support it massively with kids. And I was just like, this doesn't seem like a childish thing. This feels like a therapeutic thing. Like when a kid is having a tantrum, sometimes you'll, oh, what if we get out some crayons? It's literally an activity that kind of settles the mind and allows this sort of right brain release in a way. And so doing that with her, I was like, oh, we should be doing this all the time.

And then I just kind of advanced that to going, yeah, it just occurred to me. I'm an adult and I can go buy a canvas and I can go buy paint and paint brushes and I can attempt to just participate in this activity. And I don't think we look at an art supply store that way. I think we look at it, that's where teachers go and buy their things that they need for the class. And I did that and it wasn't good for a long time. And then I kind of had stopped and then COVID happened and my dad passed away and I came back from the funeral and it was during COVID. So in LA, we were extreme about the precautions.

And so I felt like, hey, I don't wanna like immediately come back and be around my family, even though this devastating moment has occurred. I'm too concerned even just because it was early into COVID. We didn't know enough. So I was sort of isolated for like nine days. And in that space, my friend Brian had set out a canvas and like some paint, like almost like, hey, he's a professional artist. And he's like, hey, I've set this up. And maybe there's a space where he's a professional artist. And he's like, Hey, I've set this up.

And you know, maybe there's a space where that that's something you do. And I loved it. And also someone had already set it up where I was like, Oh, this is so convenient too. It's already like here. And then it just grew from there. And I, I mean, I enjoy it anyways. So, um, it's just become, I think anyone could do it. I think it's, I think, yeah, maybe there's a little artistic eye to things. But there's a lot of jobs that repetition, if you're focused, you're going to improve at it and learn how to do it. It just is. That's just how things are.

Yeah. Do you feel like you found there to be similarities between the art of stand-up comedy and painting. Yes, 100%. It's changed my mental perception of stand-up and acting as well. Because with a painting, you can map out where you want it to go and you can do all that thing. And I think that's what keeps a lot of people from even trying it.

Because they're like, do you paint? I don't even know what I would paint. Instead of letting that question be answered once you've already taken five steps forward, then go, oh, I think I'm making this. Like in a joke where you go, oh, actually, I think I'm saying this and I didn't realize it.

And I think I'm gonna focus on the point that I now realize I'm making. Or the funny thing that, I mean, I know that you and I have both realize it. And I think I'm going to focus on the point that I now realize I'm making or the funny thing that, I mean, I know that you and I have both experienced this. You've said something on stage that you didn't think twice about and it got this massive laugh and your brain was like, wait, I didn't even think that was a joke. But then of course we act like, well, of course, of course I'm a genius. I said this funny thing. Exactly. And then we go back and we go, well, now that's in the show. That's a permanent thing in the show.

But then it also makes you go, oh, wait, because that thing I thought wasn't a thing ended up being a thing, this is a tag for that thing that I would have never noticed had people not laughed at it. But what had to happen was you saying it. Well, therein lies the callback to to jazz yeah we're talking about earlier which is like you have to play the notes in that sequence for whatever reason on that night yeah no oh that's an interesting sequence yeah right you've got to make with painting you've got to make a choice yeah yeah i tell people that say i i try to really push people to like go buy like a 30 by 30 canvas and like just some random paint brushes and know that you feel like you're the idiot at the store because you're like, I don't even know what things are. And I'm always tell people like, go find acrylics, pick out five colors, even if it's like, yeah, these are all just primary. There's nothing exciting about it.

Just do that. Grab primary colors. Grab three different types of brushes. Ones that just that you think are interesting. Don't even worry if it's like what you should actually get. Yeah, sure. And then go home. And instead of thinking about what you should paint,

out of those five colors, just quickly think of the one that you're most drawn to. And with your hands, smear that color on the canvas and now accept that a choice has been made and we can only move forward from here. That's right. But this hand, like let's say it's red,

that might not be visible in the final piece. Right. But you've got to like get going and to answer your question with the longest version of an answer possible, that to me is stand up. It's like, I want to talk about something serious. I want to talk about the things I'm scared about, but I don't know if that's funny. And I'll never get there if I don't just go up on stage and say, I am terrified of this election.

And now you go, everyone's going to go, and you know it, everyone's going to go, go on, because you're probably going to say exactly what I'm thinking and feeling. And you go, maybe, but now that I've said I'm terrified of this election, as you and I both know, the nature of our brains is going to go, tell them why you're scared. And then you go, and now here's why. And you might get to your fifth sentence yeah that becomes that thing that gets that huge laugh and then you just

go i think i got a new bit and it came from the truth it came from me just telling straight up the truth and also if you get to the end of it and you don't get a laugh you haven't lost anyone that audience because everyone that honest be like i didn't laugh at the end but i gotta tell you what it's fucking engaging i really i was interested it really goes back to the a thing that you and i came up in which is improv right yeah which is the same idea which is i did college improv and and it's just um if people aren't familiar with improv but it's like the premise of improv of theatrical improv is you say yes and to whatever your scene partner is saying. Yes. So, you know, so it's,

so then it says, so I'm riding this boat. And then you say yes. And also the boat can fly. And the next thing you know, you're in a flying boat. And then you find a scene from there. But it's like, that is true in painting. And it's true in standup. And it's true in painting. And it's true in stand up. And it's true in improv. And it's true in like, almost any art form. Yeah, I think so. For me, it's a guiding

principle. Like everything I do, maybe we're making movies, whatever it is, it's you have to like, a decision and a choice has to get made. Yeah, if it doesn't get made, then nothing can happen. Yeah, you can't hold yourself back. Because you're so afraid that that choice is going to be wrong. It can be. When did you break through that threshold though? Because like that's a really hard point to get to. Like it took me years before I was comfortable being like, yes and this. I did a docu-special in 2018 that came out in 2021. And it was, I did six straight nights in Atlanta, fully improvised each night, an hour, six nights in a row. And it came out of that.

Everything that I've just said about the vulnerability and the truth and all that, like that was a revelation for me. You know, I was wildly nervous the whole time. I initially booked these shows and said tickets are five bucks because I want it to be an amount I can give back to the audience. And I'm not here to make money. I am legitimately here to more than likely fail. I assumed I would, but I wanted to just see if I could do it because I knew that I improvised. I knew that I played. I

knew that if I could find a wave, I knew I could surf it. I just don't know how to generate the waves if I'm not coming into it with the preconceived topics and the conversation. So I booked those shows and I didn't intend to film it. I just told Jay Larson about it

and he goes, well, you have to get a camera crew and film that. And then, you know, Abso Produ goes, well, you have to get a camera crew and film that. And then, you know, Abso Productions, they, you know, Dave Kneebone was like, oh yeah, we'll give you a little bit of money to get cameras and pay for it. And, you know, it wasn't wildly expensive. And so then Scott Moran and my buddy, John, we just went and did it and shot it. And that week was this revelation of, to what I just said before of, oh, just tell the truth. Tell something vulnerable. You won't lose them. If you can't think of something funny,

it's like, well, then tell them a secret. You don't, you kind of don't want to tell them. What embarrasses you? Just say it and see if it's funny. See if it can be funny. And I got to say by over the week, the very first night I was like, oh, this is, this is really fun. over the week, the very first night, I was like, oh, this is really fun. My intention that week truly was, I'm going to improvise on Monday. If there's bits I like,

I'm allowed to bring them in on Tuesday and try to get them together, thinking by Saturday, let's see if I have something that's kind of 60 minutes and be like, in one week, did I come up with a special that is passable? I didn't think it'd be great, but it will be passable. And people go, oh, that's kind of interesting. And then be like, yeah, I mean, if I go two more months,

I could maybe really, if I really try it like this, I could maybe hammer it together. Monday night was so much fun of making all of it up that we would interview me after shows and the next day. And the next day I said, I gotta be honest. I go, everything that worked last night, I don't care. I wanna make it all up again. I go, everything that worked last night, I don't care. I wanna make it all up again.

It was such a high. And that thing that we do, Monday night, crushed it. Tuesday, let's do that again. Tuesday, okay show. Wednesday, being funny, but then couldn't think of what to say next and just told the crowd that I've watched gay porn before. And people laughed, but then also were like, in what context? And I was like, oh, this is actually, this is a topic. And then I kind of was like, oh, well, we're talking about

sex stuff. Let's keep going. And a lot of the sex stuff that's in that special is filmed. The birth of the joke is like on tape. Like this is where I just said the thing about a gangbang. It's just like here, I just said a thing that is a real thought. But if you're telling me there's traction there, sure, I'll try to make that a bigger joke later on. By Saturday, I was so comfortable on stage with nothing and just going up with the idea that I was like, I'm funny. I wouldn't be in this job. I wouldn't be able to buy groceries if I wasn't funny. So I can get past, to answer your question, I am now able to get past the idea, but am I funny?

Where do I stand in this business? In the lineup of all of the comics that are currently working today, where do I think I fall? Have I done The Tonight Show yet? Have I done this yet? I put out a special, but only so many people saw it and it didn't move the needle

the way I thought it would. And I've acted in stuff and I thought that would make me America's darling. Here's this new guy. All of the things that we sort of fantasize about in our head, this moment in time in Atlanta doing this made me go, fuck all of your hopes and dreams about what you think this is

and have the most joy in your life knowing you are funny. So just go do that and quit trying to force a career and just go, not everybody gets to be funny and know how good that feels. Why can't that be enough? It's brought me paychecks. So why don't we just be grateful for that?

And it really, it's not that the, it's not that the, the hopes and the dreams and the, the, that, that little bit of like, you know, healthy jealousy, it doesn't, that doesn't go away, but it did make me go, that's just fucking calm down about what we want our career to be and be fun and funny. And by that last show of that week, I just went up and was like, oh, you're here. I'm here. And this is what I literally, the way you open that show and you're like, you guys are here. We're all here. But literally that is the like you're here I'm here literally the way you open that show you're like you guys are here we're all here

but literally that is the moment you say that I go of everything he might talk about tonight I relate to that in such a way because that's how I like feeling at a show and he just said the same thing

that I fully agree with we're all we're all here so let's not worry about what's beyond these walls just for the next 60 to 90 minutes. Let's just be in this. And it just felt very comforting.

It felt like I was finally becoming an artist as opposed to just a comic. I love that. Are my answers too long? I ask this in every interview I ever do. We have to ask you to leave now because the answers are too long. We didn't ask for a dissertation. This is the slow round. What are people's favorite and least favorite things about you?

That's a great question. And you just mean any people. Yeah. Any people at all. Yeah, or just like, and also just friends, family. I, maybe people's favorite thing or something that they like about me is maybe the levity. I don't like to take things too serious. Not that I don't, but I don't like that to be, you know, prevalent.

I don't like to lead with that. Yeah. We all know the world's heavy, no matter what you do. Probably the levity. And then also the lev levity i think it's actually for both so people like you know what you're a little bit of a clown right you know you could take things a little more serious right let's rein it in a little bit yeah and i think both of those are probably my wife my wife has to exist in both those spaces can you think of a time where you were bringing too much levity and it's like, it actually was not appropriate for the situation? I think this relates,

but as a kid, I was an altar, were you an altar server? Yeah. Yeah, so I was an altar server and we got to get out of school whenever there was like the funeral. And you got 15 bucks.

Oh, yeah. I'll never forget me. That funeral money. Me and my buddy, Archie Gallivan, we're in the church and we're out of class to get to do it. And there's a funeral happening. I don't think I've ever even been to a funeral by this point in my life. And I think I'm like 12 years old.

And there's two stained glass windows above us. And one of them is Mary holding Jesus. And then the stained glass next to it is, you know, Mary like sort of presenting to the world like, you know, arms open. And Archie leans over to me and he goes, doesn't it look like she just dropped Jesus? And she's like this. And then the next panelist says. Her arms are open like she dropped Jesus. And I am crying, laughing.

And you know when you try to conceal your laugh, it makes it almost become louder than if you would have just laughed. Everyone at the funeral to my right is noticing. The priest is beet red, just like hating us. I know this isn't totally in the ballpark of when you're being read. But I could not. The weight of this moment, it didn't matter. I was like, I've looked at that.

He is absolutely right. And I cannot stop laughing to the point where he goes, Jesus, dude, it didn't matter. I was like, I've looked at that. He is absolutely right. And I cannot stop laughing to the point where he goes, Jesus, dude, you gotta stop. Yeah, it's such a strange thing. But it's like you were laughing because you're dealing with this really large topic, which is you're an altar server at a darn funeral. At 12. Yeah, at 12. And you're like, you're sad. You're sad. server at a darn funeral. At 12.

Yeah, at 12. And you're like, you're sad. You're sad. But you don't understand. Yeah. Like, I didn't understand what they're going through. I haven't been to a funeral yet. And I, you know, my mother passed away when I was very young, but not in a way where I,

like, remember it or like, you know, I was so young. So, seeing everyone's grieving was something I couldn't relate to that version of grieving yet. I hadn't lost a grandparent at that point or anyone of that familial significance to where even if he would have said that joke, I'd have been like, oh, man, these people are crushed. What do we – we can't be laughing. So I was like, who cares? Do you have a time you remember feeling pure joy? Joy and fear the moment I became a dad. Wow.

Pure joy realizing the relationship that my daughter and I could work towards once I felt like she registered me as a dad, you know, around two years old. And I'm like, you are here all the time. You don't seem to leave. You should just be me and mom. But you keep showing up that moment of like, I like that you're here. You know what I mean?

You finally go like, oh, I think I understand my place now. I'm now being recognized. I have that sometimes within where we'll be spending time together and I'll realize she's enjoying the time and I'll just literally start crying and she'll just be like, why are you crying?

Yeah. And if you tell her, it's like, she might be like, oh, I'm not enjoying it. And you're like, oh God, you ruined it. You can't tell why you're crying.

Like, oh, dust. There's dust in here. Yeah, that probably, and these sound so cliche and sappy, but they are real. Like realizing my wife was also falling in love with me the way that I was like falling in love with her. Oh, this feels good.

This is like, this is joy to know that someone is naturally and organically reciprocating that love and emotion that you're putting on them. So probably both of those with my wife and my kid. What was that moment with your wife? I don't know if it was specific. I think it was just in a phase of our relationship. I said, I love you so fast in our relationship

that I kind of was like, oh, I know that I feel that way, but am I the guy that people always talk about? Like, oh, you're too, you're too clingy or you said it too quick and you, how could you possibly know? But I didn't know that I felt that way. And maybe I shouldn't have voiced it, but I did. And she even said, I, she's like, well, I'm not going to say it back to you right now, if that's what you're looking for. And I kind of was looking for that, but then I started to really respect that she didn't.

And it almost made me be like, you're right. I should earn it. If we're going to get there, you're right. Just because I'm saying it doesn't mean that you should say it. And I don't know that there's a specific moment. Even the moment of her finally saying I love you was sort of not even necessary because you could just feel that we were already there. So I think when you feel like you've found that person, whether it lasts or not, whether you're going to get separated or have a divorce or whatever feelings you might have, I think there's something that when you do feel it, that's when you start to go like,

feel it. You just, that's when you start to go like, oh, these are the things you can't buy. These are the things you have to just hope you fall into and hope that right place, right time. Also, you have to hope that you've evolved enough as a person to maybe attract someone who might want to like, you know, feel that way with you. And I think that's joy when you realize that you might be doing life right a little bit. -♪ -♪ -♪ -♪ -♪

-♪ -♪ I've been working on material about drugs, like partly the thing I was telling you about walking by a smoke shop with the good life and being like, what's that? And like thinking about how, and I don't even have the joke on this but it's like an observation i have which is like every time i try to talk to una about big topics whether it's life death you know yeah drugs you know love whatever the thing is she's just like does not want to talk about it.

And I'm just like, what? You know what I mean? And then gets her attention on something else, which makes sense. That stands to reason. If my parents brought up sensitive subjects with me, I would be like, whatever. So then inevitably,

she'll find out about all these things from the other kids at school. And those kids are idiots. You know what I mean? I feel like there's got to be some joke in that there i think there is and my immediate instinct is uh what what if you because in a way she she is living the good life by not even knowing what it is oh that's true so if you're like what what is that what is the smoke shop and like what's murder what's joy you're like, what is that? What is a smoke shop? And you're like, what's murder? What's joy? You're like, if I don't tell you what any of them are,

and you can just stay in this just sort of fog of life where almost like a dog, you just get to be stimulated and not have to think about the future or the past or death or even being alive at all, maybe your whole life will be just this purely blissful thing. No, completely. So anyways, we're not telling her anything. But then you get to the point, but you know who is going to tell her.

You know who is, yeah, yeah, yeah. These jerks. These kids her age. And they don't know shit. Yeah. They don't know anything. And then for me, growing up, it was like the dare program which is like right which is an acronym that people aren't familiar in the 80s for like drug abuse resistance education which

feels like it was written by someone on drugs yeah abuse here's the resistance all right look it's got to be four words we know that much what we look, it's got to be four words. We know that much. What we do know is it has to be four words. It doesn't have to be completely relevant. It should have the word drug in it. Drug. It should start with drug something. Because it's drugs.

Yeah, yeah. It should be something with drugs and then. Yeah. A-R-E. What do we got? I want to see a show of hands. with drugs and then yeah are what do we got i want to see show of hands and then to add insult to injury like like they come to class and then it's a police officer going we dare you not yeah you're like what yeah like dare us not yeah to do drugs we shouldn't do them

you're saying don't do it and also like when have you ever been dared not to do something? Yeah. You know what I mean? Like, that doesn't exist. Yeah. Like, so it's like we're wildly confused as kids. And then, and by the way, like, I hadn't considered using drugs before that point. You know what I mean?

So I'm like, maybe I should. Never being dared to do something, not to like maybe i should like truth or dare uh dare all right i dare you to never tell the truth like oh that's great it seems way easier that's really funny you mean lie all the time like yeah it seems great truth or dare dare i dare you not to use drugs. What? Oh, all right. Yeah, I'm not. Wait, do you have them and it's like a challenge? Yeah.

Like, here's a slice of pizza. I know you're hungry. I dare you to not eat it. It's like, wow. I dare you to eat it. It's such a completely ridiculous concept. And then I, yeah, as a kid, it was the first time I had even considered using drugs. Or even knew what they

even were or knew what they were and then they were like you know and they were like you know people might come up to you and be like

you know you should try crank or boomers or angel dust and I was like angel dust I was like

angel dust you say like I was like a sixth grade altar boy and I was just like that sounds perfect. Yeah. Like, I shall take the Angel Dust and soar to the heavens beside my Lord Jesus Christ. No, it does.

It literally, like, I was thinking about the name clearly was written, created by someone on Angel Dust. Yeah. Because it's too good. It's not like some Pfizer reps were just like, what about angel dust? You know what I mean? Yeah. What about pixie dust? No.

No. It's been used. Angel dust. Similar. But real. We know angels are real. Pixies are not real. Angels are real.

The logic of that dare program yeah it's so utterly confusing what what the logic was there we had it at our school yeah and it was officer butler and you know she taught us uh stuff she would play kickball with us at recess nice and i later found out she was no longer a police officer because she murdered her husband. And that woman... This interview's over. That woman, that officer, just didn't think we should do drugs. And I gotta say, the moment I found out, I really went, I bet some of the drugs... I bet she was wrong about some of do drugs. And I got to say, the moment I found out, I really went, I bet, I bet some of the drugs, I bet she was wrong

about some of the drugs. Or, I bet she was wrong about some of the drugs. It made me second guess everything I had been taught. I bet pot's okay. Oh my God.

She can't be 100% right and a murderer and also like was she on drugs when she murdered her husband yeah that's another yeah will we ever get to know that part of it yeah pretty bizarre pretty bizarre uh that's a wild one when did she murder her husband after After you were out of school? Well, yeah, yeah. Years later? I ran into someone from school, and they're like, this is what her life became. Right. Holy shit, that's insane.

Oh, you know what program she should have been in? We dare you not to murder your husband. We dare you not to be a murderer. Oh, yeah. Keep a dare to keep kids off murder. You can try. You can dare to keep kids off murder. You can try. You can try to keep me off it. You know, they're going to offer you street murders.

They're going to offer you house murders. You say no. All right, look. It's dare, it's four words, and it's about murder. And I know there's already no M in there to even play with. This won't be easy. So de-murder. Yeah, de-murder is opposite of murder.

De-murder about remittance every time. De-murder about remittance every time. Okay, no, no, no, no, no. We got, everyone really push here. We got the weekend. By Monday, everyone needs to have five.

By Monday, we need a draft. We need a draft. We dare you not to try murder. Yeah, don't murder anybody and get out there in the world, but don't murder people.

Oh my God. Do you have new bits you're working on? There's sort of premises, observations? You know what's fun is I'm in that new space of trying to figure out what I am going to do. Yeah. So I do have some ideas, but I've gone on stage and just played with them a little bit.

One I have is people who always want you to know they're good at history in a way where they just feel the need to drop it. And I don't have – it's like literally I just go on stage and try it. This is what makes it. need to drop it. And I don't have, it's like literally, I just go on stage and try it. And I, all the, this is what makes it, the variables of it. I'm like, this could be funnier if I really sat and thought about it. But it's like when someone says, hey, do you remember,

do you remember where grandma and grandpa lived back in Iowa? And they're like, well, let me see. Kennedy died in 63. And it hasn't, but they just need you to know I'm informed of things there's probably better examples into it but that when I World War II started in 39 yeah so it would have to be late 40s probably so the axis of evil um is this and I think what happened um yeah that's America entered 42, so I think it was Westwood Road.

I think it was Cedar Rapids. And so by then they would have been in Cedar Rapids, so that's right. Yeah, yeah. Oh, that's a great bit. I think that's a great premise. One that's really fun is, thank you. One that's really fun is I get the crowd singing. I'm like, do you guys know that song?

I'm like, oh, what a night. Late December back in, and I get the whole, back in 63. What a very special time. I forget what I'm singing. And what a lady, what a night. Kennedy was just assassinated less than a month ago. Oh, my God. This guy's out living it up, finding the love of his life,

and the world just changed drastically less than a month ago. He says late December. It's pre-Christmas. This isn't New Year's Eve. He would have said that. Right, he's time stamping. He's time stamping precisely when this love.

Late December, back in 63. I feel like it's more mid-December. It hasn't even been four weeks since a brutal assassination. And people wondering, who did it? Like, was there a plot? But also. What's up? That's so funny. Was there a plot? What's's up that's so funny was there a plot what's

up yeah and also you're the history guy in this story yeah you've become the guy you in your first bit right yes exactly calling out history yes so maybe there's something there yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah you're exactly right because you could start reeling off potentially different songs and historical events that coincided. You know, Summer of 69 is like that. You could do Bryan Adams. Summer of 69!

Right. I'm sure some horrific thing happened in Summer of 69. You just keep going. You're just like Robert Kennedy just died. It's always Robert Kennedy just died. It's always a Kennedy-related moment. I love that. It's so funny.

I was trying to sprinkle in the latest ever, like, Kennedy just died. Could you imagine it's October of 2001, and people are like, they think bin Laden did it. And they're like, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think I've met the one. You're like, oh, you're out and about? Like, what do you mean?

What do you mean you met the one? I've been going on some dates. Like, really? Right now? Oh, my God. Right now you're out there? Yeah, just trying to meet people. Oh, and also, like, you have to imagine, like, the Kennedy family just, like, in the car being like, oh, what a night. And then it's like, late.

Late December. That date doesn't sit quite right. Well, it was just before Thanksgiving. Change the station. Go AM. Let's go AM for a little bit. This is usually the starting point for a lot of my stuff where I'll do these things now and play with them more and more.

And it really will sometimes take three to five years before it's really like, and that goes right there. And now it's a two minute thing. You know what I mean? Already just linking the Kennedy 63 history buff. Yeah. You know what I mean? Already just linking the Kennedy 63 history buff. Yeah.

Already that's like, all right, now there's a little bit of meat to it to like extend a little bit. Yeah, I love that. I always say to people in my live shows, I'm like, you might come see me in six months or a year and you go, that got better. That's funnier. Inevitably, you'll see something tonight

that you'll be like, what happened to that? That joke, that story. And the answer is gone. And it's gone. and the reason it's gone is because of you yeah so i want you to consider that as you and your peers decided it wasn't going to hollywood that's right you voted off the show yeah the final thing we do is called Working Out for Cause, and we contribute to nonprofit that you think is doing a good job. Oh, all right. I have always been a fan of St. Jude Children's Hospital.

I've toured it in Memphis, Tennessee. I've played in their golf events to raise money, and I've always loved the idea that all of these children and their families will never be faced with some catastrophic bill when they find out, you know, horrific news about what their child may have to go through and then they themselves. And I just love that. I wish more things existed that way. But something I loved the most about that hospital was that all of the desks and chairs and everything were kid level. So that when kids came in, they didn't feel like they were entering into a space that was for adults. They came into a space where they felt like, oh, this is like for me, like anything to make them feel comfortable. And when someone

shows you that and teaches you that and explains the stories of these families and these kids, it makes you go, all right, you guys are doing great. I can get behind this pretty easily. I was a tough customer on this place. I've got to tell you. You won me over. I've got to tell you. I was skeptical of this children's hospital thing that y'all are doing. Can I tell you something?

I thought it was a hospital run by children. So now I like it. Thank you. We're contributing. We'll link to them in the show notes. Rory, thanks for coming by. It's such an honor. Yeah, thank you.

I love your comedy so much. Thanks, man. Same.. It's such an honor. Yeah, thank you. I love your comedy so much. Thanks, man. Same. I appreciate it. All right. Working it out, because it's not done. Working it out,

because there's no hope. That's going to do it for another episode of Working It Out. You can find Rory's new special Religion, Sex, and a few things in between on Max,

which used to be HBO, and now it's Max. Check out berbiggs.com to sign up for the mailing list. Our producers of Working It Out are myself, along with Peter Salamo, Joseph Berbigly, and Mabel Lewis, associate producer Gary Simons. Sound mix by Ben Cruz,

supervising engineer Kate Balinski. Special thanks to Jack Antonoff and Bleachers for their music. They have a new album, which is fantastic. Taylor Swift has a new album that Jack was a producer on. That's fantastic. Special thanks, as always, to my wife, the poet, J-Hope Stein. Special thanks, as always, to our daughter, Una,

who built the original radio fort made of pillows. Thanks most of all to you who are listening. If you enjoy the show, rate us and review us on Apple Podcasts. Tell your friends, tell your enemies. Maybe your coworker needs to think of a catchy acronym by Monday and they're stressed because they only have one of the letters. In an attempt to calm them down, you recommend this podcast by saying, hey, why don't you listen to Working It Out? And maybe the podcast could sort of stoke the fire of your own artistic process. And then before you know it, they've thought of the acronym.

W-I-O. Try it. See how that goes over. Thanks, everybody. We'll see you next time.