Mike Birbiglia's Working It Out - 140. Stephen Merchant: 6 Foot 7 and Co-Created The Office

Episode Date: August 12, 2024

This week living legend and giant human Stephen Merchant joins Mike for an all-time great episode of Working It Out. Stephen and Mike talk about actionable advice for creatives starting out, the behind-the-scenes politics of co-creating “The Office" and “Extras” with Ricky Gervais, and how Stephen could turn his story about interviewing a pornstar into stand-up. Plus, the time Stephen walked through a glass door at Sarah Silverman’s Hollywood party.Please consider donating to St. Peter's Hospice

We're here with Stephen Merchant, one of the greats. I mean, come on, and I don't think I've even said that on the show before. One of the greats. Oh, only one of the greats? No, you think there's only one great? What a cruel response to throw it back at me. You know, the British can't take compliments. We cannot take a compliment. Stephen the Great. We're joined by Stephen the Great.

Now I sound like a compliment. Stephen the Great. We're joined by Stephen the Great. Now I sound like a dictator. That somehow feels like a British stand-up comedy persona. It's true, isn't it? I can imagine someone touring... I come on dressed like Henry VIII. Yeah, yeah. I can imagine someone filling 240 seaters across the countryside in England with that. Stephen the Great.

Stephen the Great. Stephen the Great. That is the voice of the great Stephen Merchant. This is a really good one today, folks. We are working it out. I'm honored that Stephen Merchant is on the podcast today. He is a legend of comedy. Stephen famously co-created the original British Office and Extras with Ricky Gervais. These are two of my favorite television series of all time. We talk a lot about the ways that those guys reinvented television.

We talk about the history of television, the history of filming things in that way. We talk about creating something from nothing. You might not realize this, but the original British office, they just kind of made for no money at the BBC and the BBC kind of let them do it. And that's how it became so original and unique. We talk about how Steven co-created the HBO series, Hello Ladies, and how I was not cast on that show, but I thought I was.

So there's more on that. And as well as his new show The Outlaws which we talk about today as well it's just fantastic. Steven is getting back into stand-up comedy a bit lately and so it's actually like perfect timing today that we talk about how to frame stories that you have like having a great story and knowing it's a really fun story to tell how do you frame it in a way that's comedic even though some of the elements are dramatic or even tragic. This is one of my favorite episodes for process.

I referenced Ira Glass today, and I will say, if you're into this episode, you might wanna go back and listen to the other three Ira Glass episodes where we talk about process. They're super good. I wanna thank everybody who has come out to my tour this year. It's currently called Please Stop the Ride. We're making a big New York announcement soon. Stay tuned. I'm going back out on the road in September to New Jersey, but right before that I

go to the Emmys. I've never been to the Emmys before. I don't even know what happens at the Emmys. I somehow, thanks to you and the voters at the Emmys. I've never been to the Emmys before. I don't even know what happens at the Emmys. I somehow, thanks to you and the voters at the Emmys, the Old Man in the Pool was nominated for Outstanding Writing for a Variety Special. It is such an honor alongside these comics who I'm nominated with, who I adore. So we're doing two things to celebrate that. The first is we've decided that we're going to raise money for the YMCA because there's so many jokes at the expense of the YMCA, the Elevator of the Pool, that I thought why not raise money for the YMCA. So I'm doing an event in Los Angeles at Largo, one of my favorite comedy places and music places

on the planet. It's like a really intimate thing. It's like 260 seats and on August 19th it's Mike Birbiglia and Friends raising money for the YMCA Los Angeles. Tickets are at Largo's website. All proceeds from that are going to Los Angeles Youth YMCA programs. And then if you're not in Los Angeles, we are doing a Charity Buzz auction. I've never done this before. Charity Buzz is a really cool site. They hold auctions all the time for a week or several weeks.

The thing that we were like, what would be the coolest thing that we could auction off that if you're a big fan of the old man in the pool, that you'd really want. It wouldn't be something that would sit in the garage. And so people always ask me about the note cards from the office, you know, if you ever watched the show on YouTube,

you see I have these note cards up on cork board with jokes on them. And we made, we took all of the original cards from the Old Man in the Pool, all the joke cards, and we framed it. And then it has the artwork from the Old Man in the Pool show on the bottom right hand corner, and I signed it and we framed it. And then it has the artwork from the Old Man in the Pool show on the bottom right-hand corner, and I signed it,

and we framed it, and it's like a beautiful piece. And there's an auction on Charity Buzz. And that's gonna start on August 15th. Check out my Instagram, Atperbigs, for more info on where you can place your bid. There's a lot of love and care that has gone into making this framed corkboard thing, and it's super, just super cool. If you love this show, I think you'll love it.

All proceeds from the Largo show, as well as the Cherry Buzz auction, go to YMCA Youth Programs and we're thrilled to be doing that. Starting in September, I'm going out to continue my tour in New Jersey, Portland, Philadelphia, Madison, Milwaukee, Indianapolis, Champaign, Illinois, Detroit, Madison, Milwaukee, Indianapolis, Champaign, Illinois, Detroit, Pittsburgh, Louisville, Nashville, Asheville, Charleston, and more.

All of this on birbigs.com. Join the mailing list for tour dates because I'm adding some big big shows in all different cities, January, February, and March, which is where it is all going gonna conclude. I love this episode with Stephen Merchant. He has so much insight. He has one of the strangest stories I've ever heard of something that happened to him at a party. I won't give away what it is.

It's so strange, so bizarre. It was thrilling to have him on. Enjoy my chat with the great Stephen Merchant. You are one of the greats though. You've made some of the best television shows in the last 30 years, and you're very humble, and so you don't come with a big regalia and a big ego. You're very tall.

I mean, you're pushing seven feet. That's true, I am. Yes, yes. But you're not. So I loom over people. You loom, but not in an aggressive way. Oh, well, that's nice of you to say. But another person who you cast on Outlaws is Christopher Walken, who looms also.

Just his persona. His persona, yes. Is he off screen? Does he talk like that? You mean with that sort of slightly staccato rhythm that he does on... Sometimes when I pick up a mug, I drink it and then sometimes I put it down. No, he doesn't speak that way. I don't do impressions of course, but you get what I mean.

No, he doesn't speak that way, but he is very reflective. And you know, he's a quiet man. I was asked, in order to get him for the show, I went up to Connecticut, where he lives, to meet with him. And I was a little intimidated, and, you know, he sort of lives in this nice place in the woods, and I kind of pulled up, and I was thinking, this is like somewhere that the door will be opened by a Hansel or a Gretel.

And it was Christopher, and again, I can't do the impression either, but the first thing he said to me was, would you like some omelette? And he had just made an omelette very nicely, and he shared some omelette with me. But I was talking to him, and someone had said to me before I met him, Christopher is very comfortable with silence. And that was a great piece of advice.

Because it meant that, I don't know whether you're one of those people who naturally feels the silence. And that was a great piece of advice. Because it meant that, I don't know whether you're one of these people who naturally feels the silence. And I feel obligated to do that. And knowing that he was comfortable with it meant I didn't do that. So he would ask a question and I would answer, and he would just sort of muse on that. And then there'd be a long pause, and then he'd ask another question, I'd answer again, he'd pause. And it was a little bit like having a Zoom conversation in person.

Do you know what I mean? There was a delay and you weren't sure, is he thinking or buffering? But we got there and I ended up being there for three hours and it was a really interesting conversation and he talked about people that he knew that were like the character in the show. And in the end I said, is it any more of that omelet?

Because I'd been there for like three hours, I was hungry. But so he's quiet, he's thoughtful, he's reflective, but no, I think the reason he has that very idiosyncratic speech pattern is he's trying, he's always trying to kind of keep the lines fresh, and every take he's always doing something slightly different, and so he'll talk about how he doesn't obey punctuation in scripts.

I've heard that, by the way. One of the more emphatic things that I've been taught in acting classes over the years is to immediately ignore all stage directions and punctuation. And I think it's a good tip. Yeah, yeah. Except when you're writing a show, and your actors are doing that, and it's like, no, pay attention to the goddamn punctuation. That's very funny.

No, okay. I'm going to go... Well, first of all, you and I met when you were casting Hello Ladies. Yes. You thought I might be good for one of the parts. And I still do. Thank you very much. And then you were like, you should come read for this part. And more or less, you were like,

I think that it's going to be you. And then I had to go through the network. We won't name the network. People might be able to look that up. Look it up, yeah. But the network said no dice on me. But I think it was more, it was, looking back on it, I was very inexperienced about how the American process worked.

Yes, okay. Because I had done the UK, we'd done stuff in the UK where you could basically cast whoever. Like, you know, no one, when we did The Office in the UK, I don't think we ever saw an executive. I mean, no one came down to the casting, no one looked at tapes. We just made the show. And we're all, all of us Americans who make things are so jealous of even saying this. And so by the time we came to make that, I thought it'd be the same. And the fact that there were hoops to jump through and people to show things to was completely

confusing to me. And I think if I were more, if I were more experienced now, I would know how to fight my corner or I would know the process more. But at the time, I just didn't, it was all quite new to me. And I think I was feeling like, am I making the right choices here? And I didn't have, you know,

I'd made stuff with Ricky Gervais and now I was sort of doing stuff. Although I had a great team around me, it was sort of my thing. And I think probably I wasn't as secure in my decision making. So anyway, looking back, I feel sorry that it didn't work out and apologize to you once more for it.

But I think- It will never be enough. But I think- Until we work together. Well, exactly. But if it's any solace, you know, it didn't last long on the air. So none of us made a lot of money.

That does make me feel better about it. But no, I think in retrospect, I feel like I probably didn't explain enough to you, which I apologize for, about how it all went down. I had one of those things where I came back to Jenny and I was like, I think I'm going to be on this show with Stephen Merchant. And then like three days later, I think I'm not going to be on this show with Stephen Marchant. And then like three days later, I think I'm not gonna be on this show with Stephen Marchant, which is so show business.

And it's a good lesson. I mean, honestly, it's a good lesson for all of us, anyone pursuing this is like, nothing is real until you're on the set. Well, I think now nothing is real until you're at the awards ceremony. You're absolutely right. I mean, shows now don't even-

Some of the networks keep the show. They don't even release the movie or the show. Or they film it. Yeah, it's never seen. It's never seen at all. I'm laughing so that I don't cry. I know. It is so painful.

I know a handful of people who have filmed things and spent years of their lives on things and the thing doesn't exist and can't even be seen. Well, and there's a finite amount of years in your career, isn't there? And you've worked for three years on something and it just never is seen. It's like, I don't know how I would manage that. It's so strange. You...

So when I was watching the British office, which what's funny is one when our producer was pointing out that it is funny that people refer to it as The British Office, it's The Office. And then it's The American Office. Do you ever take an umbrage of that? Not at all, no, no, no, no, no, no. No, because I've done too well out of The American Office

to, as far as I'm concerned, that's The Office. Oh my gosh. Ha ha ha ha! The, but I remember, I want to say it was the 1990s when I watched The Office and I... 2001 I think it was. Oh 2001, yeah, and I had the DVDs, because I think that was the only way we were ever watching. That's right, yeah.

In America we were handing them around to each other. And I remember watching the entire series and thinking, okay, Stephen Merchant and Ricky Gervais made this. And I literally, I think a lot of us who were in the dark and didn't know you and hadn't read much about you, we just thought, okay, I guess Ricky is more the comedian

and Stephen's maybe more the dramatist and maybe that's how it merges. Meanwhile, you know, you go on to make things that are really comedic and then Ricky makes some stuff like Derek that's very dramatic. And so it's like, and so for me, I'm curious, like what was the inside of that Rubik's Cube like? Well, the first thing to say is that neither of us

had done anything, really. We had met at a radio station, and we used to just goof around at the radio station behind the scenes, and you know, Ricky had some observations about office life that we kind of worked up, and then I was, I got a job at the BBC as a trainee, so I abandoned him immediately, got this job at the BBC as a trainee, so I abandoned him immediately. I got this job at the BBC,

and part of it was a training exercise to make a real documentary. And I said, could I do a fake documentary with my buddy? And we did what became a sort of office demo tape, if you will. And it all just kind of came together. And so, you know, he had a sort of innate talent, and I just had a kind of young, enthusiastic, sort of gung-ho, we can do anything approach. And so we sort of

learned on the job, really, and we'd never directed, he'd never acted, we'd never written anything and we just, maybe because again, it's the BBC and it was super low budget and they just gave us a chance. And I'm not sure that would work in the American system. I think probably you have to pay had used more right, perhaps more so now they'll take a gamble on people. So in terms of how it worked in the behind the scenes, we were just sort of figuring it out. I think I had studied films where I probably had aspirations

to the sort of dramaturg aspect of it. And I'd felt like I'd read some books on screenwriting. You know what I mean? And I thought, and whereas Ricky just had a sort of innate gut instinct for comedy and for this world, because he'd worked a lot of time in an office. And so it just, but I think it just kept on shifting the dynamic, you know, between us.

I just feel like it was so, it was so meaningful for me, personally, and my artistic direction in my entire career in the sense that I'm watching this comedy and I'm crying. Right, right. And for me, I had experienced that in maybe some James L. Brooks films over the years, broadcast news, but I feel like I hadn't witnessed that in television.

It seems like the ambition of it was beyond becoming television stars. It feels like the ambition was artistic at its core. I think it was and I think we were all, we used to talk about this, if this was just the favorite thing of like a small group of people, we'd be happy. We just had that, we were much more puritanical, I think, about the art of it than we've probably been since. Because it was, I don't know, it's like your first album, right? Like, you can, you know, this has got to be the best it can be.

It might be the only thing you ever made. Right, and so we were very ruthless about the mood of it and that, you know, and I remember we sort of drained the color, so it looked like a documentary that had been sitting on a shelf for 15 years, and things like that, which don't seem like the obvious thing when you're doing a comedy, right? Yes.

So yeah, there was a lot of discussions about that and the integrity of what would happen in front of a camera crew if it was a documentary. Would they say that, would they behave that way? Yeah, we were very scrupulous. In some ways, Extras, your follow-up series to that, was in some ways, it feels like a part two of that, of the filmmakers, because where it goes is, these professional extras become successful.

Right, right. Well, that's right, that's right. Yes, it was essentially the idea of, you know, write about what you know, right? And at that point we'd had success with a TV show, so the second thing, the sort of difficult second album was a show about making a show. But I think we probably... And about the characters somewhat losing themselves. Yes, and I think it was that fear of what could have happened to us if we had made other choices or if we had compromised in certain ways.

But also I think about the absurdity of celebrity and of notice and of having now been in the show business world and seeing how bizarre it was. Which is again something which many people have done before and since, but to us it was that experience we were having in that moment and going to award shows and meeting famous people and all of the strange dynamics of that and the weirdness of it. What was the most shocking thing? Because you went from being someone who was working at the BBC as an assistant, you know, to someone who was essentially a television star,

hit television creator, it's like, what was the most shocking culture shock from one to the other? Well, it was a slower burn for me, because I was a writer before I was a performer. So it was the old idea of the frog in the pan of water, right, that's slowly heating it up, and you don't realize you're being boiled alive.

So it wasn't like suddenly, oh my goodness. But I think it was when you started to discover that, like we had Samuel L. Jackson in Extras, because we heard that he'd seen the DVD and he liked it. And like you were saying, the idea that Sam Jackson's in his slippers at home, like peeling the cellophane off of a DVD, like he needs a key to get it started, right, because he can't get into the cellophane.

Like just that idea was crazy to us. That is crazy. And then he would show up in England to do a cameo in our show. And the original idea was, wouldn't it be funny if they literally were extras in our show? And then you'd have Sam Jackson and Ben Stiller and Kate Winslet, but they never spoke. Yes.

They would just walk by in the background and then we thought, that's perverse. Yes. You know? What's funny is when I was in college in the 90s I made a short my first short film ever was called extras. What's it really about professional extras? How do you be really fluky thing? I had been an extra during college. I was I was working as an extra and My friends and I thought it was a really funny thing my friends Chris and Tommy and I were like, let's make a short about this. Are you about to bring lawyers in?

Yes. Sir? Yes, come in. Chancellor? Enter. So I'm going to take out my sleepwalking material on my new set. Please. By the way, you walked through a play class window at a party.

Yeah, you're right. I did. I know. you're right. I did I know I tell the truth. I did what happened. Were you there Mike? I wasn't there but like I heard about it Yeah, I was in I wasn't even invited. I a friend of mine You've learned to get in. Yeah No, I went to a party thrown by Sarah Silverman, who I didn't know at the time. And I'd gone with a friend of a friend. And I got to the party, and it was in Los Angeles, and I think she froze the party most

years. And, you know, she had, I think, some weed chocolate or something that was there. And I thought, you know, she's a relatively petite lady. I'm a six foot seven man. I should be able to eat some, you know, we eat chocolate and I'll be fine. But not realizing that she's got the constitution of Willie Nelson.

And I've got the constitution of like an eight year old girl. And I immediately just hit me and I just felt like I fell back inside my own body and I felt like I was peeking out of my own eyes just trying to figure out what was going on. And anyway, to cut a long story short, I thought I should get outside for a breath of air. And I remember thinking there was a swimming pool behind a plate glass door. I thought, don't fall in the pool. Whatever you do, don't fall in the pool. Whatever you do, don't fall in the pool.

And I neglected to observe this glass door. Don't fall in the pool. And I just walked straight through the window and it smashed in its entirety. And I found myself outside the party looking back in. And you realize at that moment that you've not been primed for that moment. You know what I mean? Like, no one...

Like, your mother never says, by the way, if you walk through a window at a party full of celebrities, this is what you do. So, yeah, it was just... Were you okay? I had one minor cut, you can see a minor scar on my hand, and a little cut on my hair or bruise on my head, and otherwise I was fine. It was insane.

I don't know how... Although subsequently lots of people who were there on my hand and a little cut on my hair or bruise on my head and otherwise I was fine. It was insane. I don't know how, although subsequently lots of people who were there have told me Rashomon style, different perspectives on it. And one of them was that I tripped on a cable and fell backwards through the window. So whereas I was worried, I was fearful for a while that Sarah might sue me.

I think I could sue her, is what I'm thinking. So, we just reached an impasse. Sir? Come on back in. Oh, fuck it! This episode becomes a series of lawsuits. We're just doing paperwork by the end. But it's so funny because I remember the first person I saw looking back at me was the Roastmaster, Jeff Ross.

And even he looked concerned. Even he was like, there's no jokes in this. This guy could be seriously injured. That is a shocking experience. How recently had you moved to Los Angeles? I don't think I'd even moved there. I think I was just there for meetings or something. Oh, God.

But it's funny, isn't it? Because this is the comedy writer brain. Even as it had happened, there was part of me thinking there's an anecdote in this. People always ask that. When can something go from tragedy to comedy? And it's like instantly. Well, I think I was... As a comedian, it's instant.

I remember being on Kimmel not long after and telling the story. So I very swiftly became an anecdote. Yeah. That is, yeah, it became an anecdote. Yeah. That is, yeah, that's a shocking one. It's so funny because it is that thing where you're Stephen Merchant, you have something of a screen persona, even in outlaws,

you're playing an awkward variation on yourself of sorts. But also you have to live in that body and do what you do. Yeah. And think what you think. And sometimes I think people forget that about celebrities who are awkward in television and movies and their standup. They are awkward in their lives.

Well, that's the thing, but I didn't realize I was as awkward as my screen persona until recently where I started as awkward as my screen persona until recently where I started looking back on my life and I'm like, there are so many times where things like this have happened that I thought I was sort of slightly manufacturing that persona, but no, it's, oh no, that is me.

No, isn't it amazing? I had one recently, I was walking down the street, a guy looks behind, a guy walks, says to the guy in front of me, you have an undercover cop behind you. And. And he looks back at me and I look behind me. And there's no one there.

And I just go, I literally said to the guy, I go, no. Which is what an undercover cop would say. And that was the moment where I realized my look is narc. I just look like a narc. And there's nothing I can do about it. But what did you think that your look was? I don't know. I think I had, I always think of it as,

I had one vain period in my life, which was like age, like 17, where I had someone who I thought was cool paid a lot of attention to me. And so I went through a period where I was like doing pushups every night. I mean, it was outrageous. And that phase lasted about six months.

And it was, I wish upon no one spending time with me in that period of time. You've reminded me of when I was about 21, 22, I took a picture into a barber shop of Christian Slater. Okay. And I said, I want a haircut like this. I want to look like this. 20, 21?

I said, I want to look like this. And he did the haircut. And then I looked at myself in the mirror and Christian, I said, I don't look like this. And he went, I think it's the cheekbones more than the haircut. Exactly. But in my mind, I'm like, well, I just get the hair.

I'll be fine, right? Well, it's amazing because as comedians, it is almost a mandate to look within. Yes. You know, it's almost a mandate to stare at your own flaws. Yes. And go, how could this be funny? Yes. And even then, we're missing things.

Of course. You would need other people to flag to you. Because I never used to, I am still convinced that I'm not a weird guy. Okay. You know what I mean? I'm convinced I'm normal and everyone else is eccentric. Yep.

But I know that's wrong. Yeah. But in my mind, like I don't feel I'm a man with a lot of demons. I crave demons. Because I feel like it would make me funnier, more creative, more interesting, it would give me more fuel.

But clearly I must have them, because otherwise I wouldn't be doing the job I'm doing. Why are we getting on stage in front of people? Why are we, what are we chasing? What am I pursuing? There must be things there that are driving there. I've never done therapy because I think I'm worried about opening that door and seeing what's in there.

But again, I go about myself thinking that guy was weird. Yeah, completely. You know, I'll walk away from something, whereas it's almost certainly me. I think part of it dates back with a lot of us to just childhood, parts of childhood that we don't really remember. I've been thinking about this a lot lately, because my daughter's nine, and I always think about like, which stuff does she remember and which stuff doesn't she remember?

And both things are significant in relation to who you are and who you become. Well, I, as you said, I'm pushing seven foot. I'm six foot seven, and I've been very tall from a young age. And someone said to me once in an interview, do you think that you went into comedy as a way of controlling when other people laugh at you? Yeah, yeah. And I remember thinking, all right, slow down. It's a bit presumptuous.

All right, slow down. But in retrospect, that's probably, there's almost certainly some truth to that. If people are going to look at you anyway, then let's... And you even do it in outlaws where someone calls you like a beanstalk or something. Right, right. Oh, we've got a whole...

I asked the writers that I work with to come up with a string of insults for me. What are they? We had others. We had Albino E.T. on stilts, Pido Harry Potter. Albino E.T.? On stilts.

On stilts, that's good. Yeah, haunted pencil, that was one of them. Albino ET? On stilts. On stilts. That's good. Haunted pencil. That was one of them. Haunted pencil. Oh, that is just cruel. Yeah. I think you're a great storyteller. Well that's something I'm really trying to lean into in this time.

And I feel like when I talk to you conversationally, I'm like, oh, well this person could do a knockout hour of storytelling and get into the types of feelings that you have in all your TV work. Because you obviously have such a deep feeling. Well, I appreciate you saying that, and that's definitely something I've just gone back to stand at recently, and I'm definitely, there are a lot of stories in there.

And this is something I wanted to talk to you, if I could just take this opportunity for free, is you as a master storyteller, do you feel there's no story that can't be turned into a bit? Because I feel like there are stories I have, and however I tell them, I can't quite make them land

for whatever reason. And I'm interested to know whether you feel like there is some things that, for whatever reason, they'll just never quite work. As stage-worthy bits. I guess the question is, it's funny, the last night I said on stage this line that I sometimes talk about with comedy in general,

which is I think that comedy is a Venn diagram of what you think is funny and what the audience thinks is funny. And if you can find that stuff in between, then that's where sort of the magic is. And I always think of my jokes and stories as being of that. And I said, I've literally said it on that. And I literally said it on stage,

I've never said it on stage, I said it to the audience because something didn't work. And I go, I think of comedy like a Venn diagram. And I go, and that was an example of where we disagree about whether something is funny. I thought it was funny, you guys don't, that's fine. You're perfectly entitled to your opinion. But I also think like, I think there's two approaches.

If you have a story that isn't working, there is kind of a reframing of it. Like what's not in the frame that could give more context so that they're in my brain. Yes, yes. So that's one version of it. And the other version of it is, no, it's just not going to work.

You know what I mean? But that's also good. That's also good because it's freeing. You go, no, you know. But do you feel there are stories or opinions or ideas that you can't get across because they don't chime with people's perception of you? Because I've noticed.

100%, but I think that that you can get around. Yeah. Because I think that that's a framing thing. You can zoom out and go, let me tell you something about myself that you probably don't perceive. You're probably looking at me thinking I'm a beanstalk of a man,

and I'm awkward and I'm this and I'm that. But actually, in certain situations, I do pretty well. I'm a James Bond-like. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm a James Bond-like situation. Yeah, character. And then you can go into it. I mean, I do pretty well. I'm a James Bond-like. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm a James Bond-like situation. Yeah, character. And then you can go into it.

I mean, I have a joke years ago where I talk about bombing at this charity golf tournament for cancer, and I felt terrible about it. And I tell a joke, thinking I'm gonna make the situation better, I tell a joke about cancer, because I had cancer. Right, right. And it gets, and it gets, and it just gets worse.

And then I say, before I tell you this part of the story, I want to point out, you're on my side. Which is like, just completely hangs a lantern on like, like obviously you're not gonna be, but let's try. And I think like, sometimes as comedians, I think we forget how much we can openly discuss what is happening, which is I am a person telling a group of strangers some stuff.

Yes, yes, yes, acknowledge the... Yeah! Because it's a weird artifice anyway, isn't it? Yeah, the whole thing! That you've ambled on stage seemingly just talking off the top of your head, even though you've carefully cultivated it over a year. Yes!

If not years! Yeah. If not years. But do you want to go over one of those? Well, I have a story that is a true story that happened years ago. And even as I begin to tell it, I feel like this might be a confusing aspect. Because before I did anything else, a friend of mine was working on a TV show. They had got hold of some outtakes and bloopers from porn movies.

And they had somehow got a commission where they could get two shows out of these outtakes and bloopers on late night TV. And they needed to pad it out. They didn't have enough for a whole half hour show. So they needed someone to go to LA and interview porn stars. To pad out this show in between the bloopers. go to LA and interview porn stars. Okay. To pad out this show in between the bloopers.

They'd have me talking to whoever it was. Would it be a comedy show? Yes, a kind of comedy show, like, you know, a kind of blooper show, like America's funniest home videos, but they're porn. Except porn, yeah. Anyway, so a friend of mine said, would you want to do it?

And I'd never done much anything. I was just doing a little comedy on the circuit. I said, sure. So they flew me to LA and I met porn stars and I interviewed them. And one of the homes I went to was this porn couple in the valley. And I went in and at the time, this was how long ago it was, they were live streaming from different rooms in their house and their fans would go online. And the porn star and her husband, she would go online and her fans would say what they were into that,

you know, what they wanted to see her do. And she would act that out, either with her husband or people that came around the house. And I was there, bear in mind, as just an observer with a camera crew. So I'm there and I'm sitting next to her at one point while she's talking to her fans. And they start insulting me. Like, why do I, why am I looking at this guy, this, you know, albino ET on stilts or whatever. This, why am I looking

at this guy? And I got angry. So I wrote back. I'm like, how am I the loser? You're the ones that I own with your pants on your ankles. I'm furious. Anyway, her husband appears and he starts sort of making out with her and fondling her and they just disappear upstairs. And I'm just sitting in their living room, again, not knowing the etiquette. Like, what do you do in that situation? Do you make yourself a cup of tea? And eventually the husband appears and he goes, are you coming upstairs? Oh no. So I go upstairs and now she's on the bed

pleasuring herself and he's filming it and it's streaming live on the web to the fans, right? Okay. And he says to me, I'm going to join in, he hands me the camera. Now I'm a pornographer, right? Like now I'm filming this, right? And she's...

This is a fantastic story. And she's, you know, now they're getting down to it. And I'd never seen, I'd never been to an orgy or anything. Well, you'd never even seen sex. I'd never even seen sex. I didn't even know what was going on. And so I'm filming this and I'm starting to think, like, what angles do people want and, like, should I be zooming in? And then...

And then I remember the nerds online who'd been insulting me. Oh, God. So I turned the camera away online who'd been insulting me. So I turned the camera away from them and just pointed it at the wall. And they're like paying 15 bucks an hour. I'm like, they're not going to see anything. This is my payback. This is cool.

Anyway, so that's what happened. That's the genuine story that happened. But when I tell it on stage, people don't really go with it. Either they don't believe it or they think, oh, well, you're in show business, so you were making a show and it was bound to be funny. For whatever reason, they can't dial into it

in the way that you just did because you know it's true or whatever. And so that's one where I just can't find the framing of it. Okay, I'm going to make a recommendation, which is to wean out the show business from it and just be like. But then why am I there? I had this job years ago and they asked me

if I would interview these porn stars. And I showed up, I don't know that much about porn. And then I would even potentially go into some jokes about porn that express your POV on porn. But what's the, do I need to give a reason for what job would that be? I think you could be a reporter, you could be a radio reporter.

I mean, like, I don't think you owe it to the audience to give them the context that is what the New York Times would give. Yes. I really don't think you owe them that. And it's like, in my experience, the less that people have to think about the mechanics of how you arrive somewhere, the better, usually.

And so I would just come up with a conceit that is a little bit of a fudge of the truth that maybe is an amalgam of your past. You worked in radio. I was an assistant on a radio show and they were covering a porn thing and then I was in this house where they were live streaming porn

and then people started mocking me. And I feel like I'm in. Because that's a good example, I think, where if we were working on a script or a screenplay and we were trying to fold a narrative, a real story into a narrative, I would be able to pull my perspective out and kind of adjust where it needs and how we change it.

When I'm writing a script, a TV or movie script, for some reason when it's my real life in stand-up, it's much harder for me to get that bigger view on it. Ira Glass has this great thing, which is about stories, which is you do a little bit of story, and then how you feel about what's happening, and then a little more story, and then how you feel about it.

And comedians, we have this superpower, which is that how we're feeling is jokes. That's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely, yeah. So it's kind of a score. Like, I think that story's a riot. And I think that's... I guarantee you that will work. I think what it's lacking is an intro,

and I think it's lacking an outro. I think where it lands is not enough to be an ending yet. What's a capper, like in other words, like in hindsight, why does it stick in your mind? Well, because it was the domesticity meets the sorts of seediness, if you like. Yeah! Like they were a couple.

That they were a couple. And that was their house. It was their house. And what was odd, I remember, is that she was a porn star and he was a former NASA scientist. I remember like, how did they meet? Like, what mixer is that? Oh, that's lovely.

And also, I remember... That's a great detail? Like, what mixer is that? That's lovely. And also I remember- That's a great detail, by the way. They were very open with me, but they didn't want the neighbors to know. Oh really? They were very worried about if I did a piece to camera outside the house, that the neighbors would ask, what are you doing?

And I'd tell them I was just in the porn store. I could see that. Which I thought was astounding. How do you keep that hidden? That's a hard one to keep hidden. I used to have this joke, which is, when people make homemade porn, I'm always shocked because after I have sex, all I can think is, at least no one saw that.

I'm never like, how were we not rolling? Go again, it's gotta be 40 minutes. But it's, yeah, but I think that, those are interesting facts. You're saying one of them was a NASA engineer? He said he'd been a NASA scientist or a NASA engineer. Yeah, and I don't know how they met. My big concern is are they still together?

They seem very sweet. Yeah, I know, that is a big concern. I mean, does it relate to your relationship you're in now? Well, she's not a porn star. I know, that's not what I'm asking. I don't understand science. I never get a job at NASA. What's the thematic? What is the thematic tie?

I mean, we're both in show business. I mean, there is maybe a caper of just like, I found the whole thing very relatable. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. Like, for being so outside of my own experience, I did find it pretty relatable they had a house. Yeah.

They were worried about the neighbors. Yeah. I think maybe something in that... I do remember thinking that it was... That there was a lot of what appeared to be wipe clean services. Oh, yes. Like, it was a very immaculate place, because I guess it's on camera all the time,

you know, you can't have kids' toys and clothes on a dryer. I think something in that space of how you found it relatable could be a capper because it's a 180 of where we were at the beginning. Because you're fish out of water. I mean, really, it's a fish out of water story. It's the gawky albino ET in porn. I'm repeating precisely what you said.

Your words. Sudden. And I'll say it slower. It's an albino ET unstilts in a world of pornography. That's right. I mean, and maybe honestly, maybe it comes back there as you call back that joke and then say, and somehow I found it relatable.

You know what I mean? Because I do think like that, it's the fish out of water and then it's almost like, you know, what's the surprise where ET connects? Yeah. You know what I mean? That's right, yeah. It's like the, you know, you know the surprise where ET connects? Yeah. You know what I mean? That's right. Yeah.

It's like the, you know, you know. Not very much the Elliot of the story. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. It's, yeah, they're the Elliot of the story. Yeah, there maybe is something in that. Because I think the stories, the story at its core is hilarious.

And I just think, yeah, beginning and ending. I think, you know, ending, of course, I just think ending is the most crucial. It's so hard. That's the thing which is often hard with a real life story because a real life story often doesn't have a natural, what you might term, payoff in the stand-up sense. I mean, the other thing is like, it's, what is it,

20 years later, 30 years later, and you're still thinking about it. Sure. So it's like, what is there? What's that, why? Yeah. Because the why sometimes, why are we still thinking about this? Yes.

And maybe it's like, and I think, why do I think about this? Well, it's relatable. My wife has this, whatever the thing is. Right, right. It's relatable. We're not porn stars, but you know. But we keep our house tidy.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, we keep the tidy house. We're worried about the neighbors. We're worried about what the neighbors think of us. That's right, yeah. Well, thank you for your help on that though. I feel like that, yeah. I'll keep working on that. So you've been doing standup.

What else are you kind of obsessed with right now? Standup-wise? Yeah. Well, it's interesting you say that because I don't know if I'm saying this as a bit or if I'm saying this truthfully, I think it's a bit of both. I feel like one of my problems as a standup is

I don't have a lot of opinions. Or what I should say more is that I'm quite a centrist person. I can see most sides of an argument. So when I see someone as brilliant as... Which is what a dramatist is. Right. Which is where you come from. But with drama, I can create a sort of nemesis in the narrative

to create both sides of the opinion. And now I've got a drama and I've got a friction to it. Absolutely. Whereas if you're a great stand-up I've got a drama and I've got a friction to it. Absolutely. Whereas, if you're a great stand-up who's got a very distinct point of view, I'm thinking of someone like Bill Burr, who sort of, whether he's like that in real life or not, he manifests a sort of anger or frustration in the world,

which seems very real. And so he's constantly in conflict with the world in one form or another, or with people in the world, or with attitudes or whatever. And so there's a dialectic, to use the Marxist term straight away, right? Whereas I don't... It doesn't... So I have a dialectic with just not walking through windows, or the awkwardness of walking into a porn star's house,

because I'm a fish out of water in those situations. But if you ask me my opinions on the classics with stand-up material, I find it hard to get frustrated with, I don't know, whatever it might be, Cab Drivers. Like it's a manufactured artifice if I start. But I don't think that stand-up comedy has to take one side. Like I think the most interesting comics are... stand-up comedy has to take one side. Like I think the most interesting comics are- In the gray?

Well, they're taking all the sides. Like if you look at George Carlin, he's typically making a case for one thing and then poking holes in it in act two. Sure, yeah. And then maybe presenting a third thing in Act Three that's entirely different. And I think like, or Gary Shanley,

or countless other comedians, I mean, I'm always trying to do that. I'm always trying to take, in my new hour right now, it's a lot about, that I'm touring with is a lot about being someone who's been married 15 years and I have a nine year old daughter and a vast majority of my life is this domestic life. It's the mundane.

And it is finding in that, what are the contradictions in it? What are the perspectives from other people? What drives me crazy? And then what can I imagine drives other people crazy about me? And I think both of those things are cathartic when you can do them right.

Yeah, yeah. It's like Jenny and I were watching this PBS documentary about William Carlos Williams the other day. And he has that famous poem about plums. And they were talking about how it's the simplest and most mundane thing. And of course he was a doctor. He was like a full-time doctor,

and then he was writing poems. And he, in a lot of ways, had sort of a mundane life in the full-time job and family. And yet the plums, he finds it in this thing. And I don't think that that's a take. Sure, sure, sure. As a Bill Burr-esque take per se. I think he's, I think if you're vivid enough

with what you're painting for the audience, you can bring them somewhere special. Now you talk about it, I have another story. So maybe this is an interesting territory because I have another story where I, so my dad was a builder and a plumber. Yeah. And he was kind of more of a man's man, you know,

like he would, he's the sort of guy that would come home from work and have a wash in the sink. Okay. You know, or take an adjustable wrench on holiday. Walk me through that. What's a wash in a sink? You come home, you're like, you're just like, you're not running a shower,

you're like running the water in the sink and just splashing your face under the arms. I know nothing of this. And so he's more of a man's man. I was never that person. But whenever I was around people from the construction world or anything like that, I felt a need to put on a kind of air of what we call bloke-iness in the UK.

I feel like I wasn't some highfalutin kid who'd been in university who was trying to be a writer. Like I felt a need to be one of the boys. Right. Anyway, so I'm doing some work early on in my life. I was having my apartment redone and I had to buy some glass for a window, for an internal window. And my dad said, go up to this guy that I know, you know, and buy the glass. And so I got to this place, this store, but I just put on this act. Like I don't want him to know that I'm... So I start and I kind of walk in and I'm like pretending

to chew gum. Pretending to chew gum. Like, you know, I'm saying, trying to make conversation, you know, about sort of... Pretending to chew gum is a bit for sure. Oh, did you see the big sports game last night? You know, whatever it was. And so I walk in and the guy sort of looks at me and I walk over to this glass that's all kind of stacked up.

Yeah. And I pull out a sheet of glass because I'm looking to see if it's the one. And the guy says, be careful. You know, you might cut yourself. I went, I'm all right, chief. And I looked at my hand and there was a huge gash through my hand. Oh my gosh. It was cut open because of the glass.

Because I just cut my hand. Me and glass. And so now I'm looking at my hand. Me and glass. Yeah. And so now I'm looking at my hand and like you say, my first thought should be, I need to ask this man for help. But instead, I'm thinking I don't want him to think I've cut myself. Oh God. So I put my hand in my pocket and I say, he says, is that the piece you want?

I went, I think so. And so he puts on a giant leather glove, like a sort of medieval, you know, blacksmith, and comes out and pulls the glass out. I'm like, of course, that makes sense. Yeah. And so, and I've got my hand in my pocket, and I don't, and I'm just,

and I can feel it sort of bleeding into my pocket. And he sort of wraps it up for me and things, and then I have to sign the credit card slip, but I can't, now I have to use my left hand, and I can't, but I also don't want to take my hand out of my pocket to hold the slip. And again, the whole thing is not wanting to be, to embarrass myself, instead of being genuinely concerned

about the blood that's pouring into my neck. I think that's a great story. Have you done it on stage? No, no, no. That's great. I think that you probably have 40 stories like that. I'm sure it is the truth. And I think that it's a matter of putting them on stage,

seeing, to go back to the Venn diagram, seeing what is the thing that is like lightning between you and an audience, and going and then collecting those stories and then just going, what is this about? I mean, to me, you know, I'm from the 30,000 foot view, I'm going like, well, it's just, it's in some ways a story about you and your dad.

Because in some ways, you know, you view your dad as this person you look up to, but he's so different from you. Yeah. And there's potentially just a lot there. This is from someone who's performing a show around the world about my dad. Sure, yes.

Currently. All of our advice is all reflective of where we're at, but yeah, I think about that a lot. Here's my hypothesis on the history of television in the last 30 years. Oh, okay. Tell me where I'm right and wrong. I think about Spinal Tap inspired Gary Shanley to make Larry Sanders. Yep.

I feel like you and Ricky Gervais must have been inspired by Larry Sanders and or Spinal Tap possibly. Yeah. Definitely both, yeah. Then the American office is of course, inspired by the British office, Greg Daniels. And then modern family is inspired by the office. And then that's kind of like every television show right now. Right, right. Which is kind of the single camera,

documentary style, shooting style, which is kind of the single camera documentary style shooting style, which it's no small thing. It has entirely replaced what used to be the multi-cam studio audience sitcom. And now it is how television shows are made. And your part, you're a massive part because you're bridging the gap from spinal tap, as far as I can tell, which is in the 70s or 80s,

to the 2000s. Right, okay, yeah. Do you think that's right or wrong? Well, firstly, you reminded me that I did a guest spot on Modern Family, and one of the people on the crew said, not realizing who I was, said, hey, you know, the unique thing about this show is it's shot like it's a documentary. Oh my God!

Yeah, and I'm like, oh, cool. But are you just finding like a specific through line? I mean, there's presumably a lot of other shows which don't have that style. Or do you think that... Most do. Do you think it is? It's a rarity that there's a multicam set coming. I remember, I talked to you earlier about how Rick and I were very diligent about the

sort of authenticity of the documentary and what would be filmed in front of a documentary and so on. And part of that was how long would, in theory, a documentary crew be in an office before it was aired. And I remember us saying when they were developing the American version to Greg, you know, well, how are you going to... If this runs to like nine seasons, why is this camera team still there?

And has it been aired and are they now famous? And he said at some point it will just become the style of the show. And he was right, it just became the style of the show. And you weren't asking by series four, oh it's a documentary and are they well known and is this on TV? It just was the style of the show.

And at some point I think those other shows are that, it's just the style of the show. So whereas we wouldn't go home with the characters because why would a camera team be in your bedroom? Whereas Modern Family can be anywhere at any time and it's just the style, right? I mean, I like all those shows are referencing. It is a pet peeve.

That they can go behind closed doors. No conceit. Right. The two-camera interview, I just, it always takes me out of it. Really? Unless it's like your show, where we, it's a documentary.

Yeah. And I'm always just like, you can work a little harder with the conceit there. No, I think it's just a style now. It's just a... I know, but also, come on. What are we doing? But in terms of sort of... We certainly were influenced by Spinal Tap and Larry Sanders, but bizarrely, although they were in our heads,

they were in our heads more when we came to make the show. Like I say, it originated because I had this documentary team for one day. I was supposed to be making a real documentary. And so we did a fake one instead. And so the talking heads and they being interviewed was because we could fill up more screen time by having someone be interviewed. This goes to a question I have, which is usually a slow round question about advice. Like what advice would you give or would you hand off? When I look at The Office or when I look at Broad City,

there's a lot of shows where a creator just made a thing for no money, no budget, and then someone goes, no, let's give that person a shot. What advice would you give for someone who's at step one of that? Well, I'm jealous of the fact that nowadays, the access to cameras and good sound and good editing is on people's phones.

I mean, it's crazy. It's unbelievable. And when I think back to when I was a teenager or in my early 20s filming stuff at college, to get hold of editing equipment, we had like two VCRs that were, you know, it was painful to do it. Oh, yeah. And so to get anything made was such a challenge and you needed help and you needed equipment.

And so I'm, I feel like it's, if we were doing the office now, I suspect we would have shot that ourselves, you know, and edited ourselves, and not even had that BBC camera team for a day. Because you've got no... It's like the band that's rehearsing, writing the songs for the first album, right? You'll never have more freedom, more time... That's right. ...than before someone pays you to do a thing. Yes.

You can... And it's only your drive, your time, your ambition to workshop it with your friends. And there's always people around that will act in something that will help you. They're eager to do it. People want to get involved in stuff and it's just up to you to make it happen. And this is great advice.

And to someone listening to this who isn't doing that but knows they should do that. What's your advice? Well, it's difficult when you, let's say you have a nine to five job and you're trying to pay bills. Yes, I understand it's hard to carve out time, but you can do it. Many of us, I did a full-time job and then went off and did stand-up in the evenings. I'm sure you were the same. You know, you can find the time if you want it.

And the idea of making excuses just excuses, that's not an excuse. If you want to do it enough, you'll find the time. My dad built a house at the weekends while working a regular job in the week. So for two and a half years, it took him to build a house with his father and his uncle. So you can kind of do anything if you put your mind to it. And so I think it's just, just do it.

There's no excuse, just do it. So the person listening to this is probably gone. Oh, what if I fail? What does Stephen Merchant say to that person? I always think about that idea of the sort of guy down the bar saying, you know, I could have been heavyweight champion of the world. But did you get in the ring? Did you do any boxing? I did it twice, but it was the politics of it, man.

The guy in the gym didn't like me. It's the politics of it, yeah, yeah. It's like you can't... You'll never know if you're a heavyweight champion until you try. And so, of course, you might fail. You might fail horribly. But you might not. I mean, I look back now, I'm like, I don't know where I got this cough.

Why on earth did I think... My hero when I was growing up was John Cleese from Monty Python. And he grew up not far from my hometown of Bristol. He was tall like me. And somewhere as a teenager, I'm like, well, if they want tall guys from this neighborhood... If they want tall.

Yeah, they want to clearly want tall. Yeah, they clearly want tall. I can do that for them. It's clearly been a huge advantage in your career. Have you ever thought about shortening surgery? Some people do get that. They cut off, you know, they cut off their. It's a brand at this point, Mike. Yeah, they cut off their heel

and then they come out about four inches and they put the feet there. It's my thing, you know? Oh yeah, I get it. It's a signature, it's a calling card. Exactly. What is, is there a group that wouldn't let you in when you were a kid?

Don't know that they wouldn't let me in, but I thought I was never quite a member of any group. I remember, I feel like there were Friday evenings where I was thinking, someone will call. They'll tell me where it's happening. They'll tell me where the party's at. And they didn't. Oh, I relate to someone will call so much.

But it wasn't that you were unpopular. I feel like you just weren't in their thoughts. You were forgotten. Yeah, yeah. No, someone will call could be the title of your special. Because I think that's a deep feeling. Yes. Of just being excluded, not in like an aggro way.

No, I'm an issue. But just a casual, someone will call. Yeah. And they don't call. What's your least favorite nickname you've had? I don't think of anything, but do you know what? I tried't think about a nickname, but do you know what? I tried to get myself a nickname. When I was maybe 13 or 14, I thought it'd be cool to have a nickname.

And so I tried to get one going. And so I came into school and I said to my friends, you know, everyone's calling me Spud now. Oh, God. Which I don't know if you use that term here. It's a abbreviation. It's like a slang term for now. Oh, God. Which I don't know if you use that term here, it's like a slang term for potato. Yeah, sure. So, and they went, no, they're not.

And I'm like, no, you're right. They're like, who would be calling you that except us? And we're not, so it's not a thing. And I'm like, you're right, it's not a thing. People are saying, people are calling me Spud. No, they're not. This is a, I mean, it's kind of no further questions, Your Honor.

It's just like, you're great. Well, thank you so much. You're a legend for a reason. It was a real pleasure. I really feel like you've helped me with this standup show. I really appreciate it, man. That's great.

I mean. But you're not going to ask for money or anything. Yeah, there's a small fee. Here come the lawyers. Sir, sir, can you enter there? There's a gentleman, you fill out some paperwork. it's a W9, it's a simple thing. It might be confusing with the currency exchange, but the, no, it's, I think that the key to your stand-up hour is going to be ripping open your soul and revealing to the audience

what I think you have a bit of a Brit kind of reserved way about you. And I think that if you can come on stage and reveal yourself as that person and then just tip it one tick into how you feel deep down underneath that, and then just tip it one tick into how you feel, deep down underneath that. I think that could be the magic that your television shows. Thank you, Mike.

The last thing is working out for a cause. Is there a nonprofit you enjoy contributing to or you think does a good job? Well, there's a hospice that I do a lot of things for in my hometown of Bristol where my grandmother passed away. So St. Peter's Hospice, I often direct people towards that. Okay, so we will contribute to St. Peter's Hospice.

We will link to them in the show notes. And Stephen, I'm just thrilled that we met many years ago. Your network rejected me to play the role that you wanted me to play. And I think we'll work on something. Yeah, I hope so. I feel like we're very simpatico is my gut instinct. Yeah, I don't appreciate your pronunciation of simpatico,

but I know what you mean. All right, until the next time. Working it out, because it's not done. We're working it out, because there's no more. That's going to do it for another episode of Working It Out. You should watch that one on YouTube, by the way, at my YouTube channel, because he's too tall for being filmed.

It cuts off at his neck. He's's too tall for being filmed. It's like, it gets cut off of his neck. Seven and a half feet tall. The full video is great though, just because he's very funny, physical comedian. And you can just, honestly, you just feel the warmth between us. Like, I think we just loved talking to each other, and we just had both had a blast. And hopefully we will work on something someday if the studio signs off on it. Check out Berbigs.com and sign up for the mailing list to be the first to know about

my upcoming shows. Our producers of Working It Out are myself along with Peter Salomon, Joseph Berbiglia, and Mabel Lewis, associate producer Gary Simons, sound mix by Ben Cruz, supervising engineer Kate Belinsky, special thanks to Jack Antonoff and Bleachers for their music. I'm going to see them at the garden this fall. So excited. Special thanks as always to my wife the poet J-Hope Stein. I was on vacation this summer with my family and someone said to me, I listen to every episode of your podcast like oh my god thanks. I go that's my wife. She was like getting it was like 16 handles kind of place,

like frozen yogurt thing. And I was like, there's my wife right there, Jenny. And the person goes, you mean the poet J-Hope sign? I was like, oh, you really do listen to every episode. Special thanks as always to my daughter, Una, who built the original radio fort made of pillows. Thanks most of all to you who are listening. If you enjoy the show, rate us and review us

on Apple podcasts. We're nearing 4, rate us and review us on Apple Podcasts. We're nearing 4,000 reviews. It's so exciting. If you're new to the podcast and you enjoyed this episode, we have almost 150 episodes we've done. Since June 2020, they are all free. You can hear Quinta Brunson, Nikki Glaser, Seth Meyers, John Mulaney, so many greats. Check out our back catalog and then

go on Apple Podcasts and say which one is your favorite and which would be a good place to start because that's always super helpful to others. Thanks most of all to you who are listening. Tell your friends, tell your enemies. Let's say you're really high at a party, just hypothetically, and you can't, let's say, form sentences. And there are a bunch of, let's say, cool people around who you don't want to see them stand off as shorts. Maybe instead of trying to have a conversation, you can bring everyone together and say,

hey, I'm a little tired. Maybe instead of talking, we can listen to a podcast. Like, for example, Mike Perbigliet is working it out. We can hear Mike talk to other comedians and creatives about the creative process. And then you'll have a bunch of new friends and they'll be creative. Thanks everybody. We're working that out. I'll see you next time.