Mike Birbiglia's Working It Out - 143. Zach Braff: Making A Movie is Like Throwing A Wedding

Episode Date: September 9, 2024

This week filmmaker and actor Zach Braff joins Mike to talk everything from Garden State to Ted Lasso to what it’s like to direct Morgan Freeman. Zach discusses the story of his ex once following him through Europe and Mike  and Zach discuss the possibility that a story like that could be the starting point for a one person show. Plus, the time Zach got too drunk and excused himself from a Rush concert to take New Jersey Transit home.Please consider donating to: Midnight Mission

I was thinking today about how you are one of two people, Matt Damon being the other one, where when your movie came out, His Was Good Will Hunting and Yours Was Garden State, where I had immediate resentment. Because in both cases, you wrote the movie, starred in the movie, in great movie. And I, as an aspiring filmmaker in both instances, had the why not me?

Yeah, I understand. And it's weird because then sometimes you go and years later, you know, I made a couple movies and work on my next one and you go like, yeah, it has nothing to do with me. If anything, it should be inspirational. Oh yeah, people can get movies made for a small budget. I think that's very hard in the community we're in because it's so competitive and it's

so hard. There's a quote I heard, I was accredited to mean that it was Steven Spielberg, I have no idea if it is, but I always remembered it in Hollywood, people want you to do well, but they don't want you to do that well. That's great. That is the voice of the great Zach Braff. We are so excited to have Zach Braff on the show. You might know him from Scrubs, from Garden State, which he wrote, directed, and starred in. The films I Wish I Was Here, A Good Person. He's also directed a ton of beloved television, Ted Lasso and Shrinking.

He has just had a very elaborate and varied career. We talk about all those things today. Great episode for aspiring filmmakers in particular. Thanks everybody who came out to the show in Los Angeles. At Largo, we raised about $20,000 for the YMCA of Greater Los Angeles. Thanks to everyone who bid on the original note cards from the Old Man in the Pool, Judd Apatow was the winner.

But based on your comments on social media, we've made it a limited number of signed autographed prints of that same image for sale on burbigs.merchtable.com. They're 40 bucks. All proceeds from that will go to the YMCA of New York City. This week I'm back on tour. My new show is called Please Stop the Ride. The tour picks up in Red Bank, New Jersey this week

at the Count Basie Theater Friday and Saturday night. Then I go to the Emmys. I've never gone to the Emmys. Very excited. Then I go to Seattle.ys. I've never gone to the Emmys. Very excited. Then I go to Seattle. I go to Portland, San Francisco, Oakland, Philadelphia. I'm really excited about that show.

Two in Minneapolis. I'll be in Madison, Milwaukee, Champaign, Indianapolis, Ann Arbor, Detroit, Dayton, Pittsburgh, Louisville, Nashville, Knoxville, Asheville, and Charleston, South Carolina. Check out BrrBigz.com and join the mailing list for all the tour dates. We're adding more soon for January, February, and a really big show, most likely in New York City in March.

I love this episode with Zach Graf. We talk about directing movies. We talk about directing movies. We talk about Sundance. We talk about him directing legendary actors like Morgan Freeman and Harrison Ford. He talks about how musical theater influenced his approach to writing. He has a wild story about a trip to Europe

that could perhaps potentially one day be a one person show. Or maybe a movie, I don't know. I think it has a lot of potential. We go into a discussion of how to make a story from your life into a narrative show. I just love this episode. It's a great chat with the kindred spirit. Enjoy my chat with the great Zach Braff. I remember going to see Titanic with my father and I loved the movie.

I thought it was very moving and he did too. I think we both cried and I hadn't done anything at that point. I was, I think waiting tables or PAing and we came out and he goes, that Leonardo Caprio, he's about your age, isn't he? That's great. It hurts so bad. Yeah, sure.

But I felt that in a funny way. I was waiting tables, but I felt that for Leonardo DiCaprio, like where's my Titanic? Of course. No, there's something about, and of course I made the whole movie, Don't Think Twice about resentments

for people who have sex. I love that movie. Oh, thanks. I love all your work so much. Thanks. I just get it out of the way at the top. I'm a true mega fan. I love your shows.

Your shows really speak to me. I love that I don't know anyone else that does it in the way that you do it. But there's just something about the way that you tell a story that I find so unique and special. Thanks, yeah, it's, I don't know what to say. You don't have to say, I'll just say that when I walked into your house, I was geeked to see the couch.

The couch from the new one. Maybe it's not the couch, but in my mind, it was like, oh, that's the couch. It was like seeing a celebrity. Oh, God, that's so funny. No, it's funny though,, yeah, your movie came out and did you ever have that where you saw a movie where you were like, oh, how come I didn't write that movie?

Oh, all the time. Yeah. I see movies and I go, why aren't I writing? Really? I go, why do you suck? Why are you so lazy? Why aren't you producing more? Why aren't you more prolific?

That's kind of my reaction now. Cause I know I can make a movie. I know I can get a good cast together. For me, it's hard for me to write and I procrastinate a lot and something has to happen in me that I finally get my ass in the chair to write. And here's a funny, like, a friend of mine recently was a script super on a movie

and they hadn't really worked on a set before and they had the buzz of like, oh my God, worked on a set, unbelievable. It's a high. I was like, I know. I go, that's why bad movies are made. Because you get so high on making movies. That you're like, when's the next one? And then you just, you speed out another movie

and then it's not as good as the other movie. Well, I think that definitely happens when you're an actor with heat. That certainly happened to me. I got some heat on me and I was just like, holy shit, people are hiring me? And then I just started saying yes and then of course it didn't all work,

but you just can't believe that you get to do it again. As a filmmaker who's a writer director, yeah, I find it quite hard to turn them out because they don't just come to me, I'm not prolific or haven't found a way to be yet. because they don't just come to me, I'm not prolific or haven't found a way to be yet. They take years to sort of stew. I was always so jealous of Woody Allen, scandal noted as I should say.

I did Pete Holmes' podcast and he's the one who said, if you need to say a name like Woody Allen, just say scandal noted. Scandal noted is a great way to approach it. Yeah, because we don't have to go down that road. We don't have to talk about it. Just say Scandal Noted. Scandal Noted.

But I was always so envious of how he would make a movie a year. I was like, wow, and back at a certain time, a lot of them were great. And if you look at the movies for batting average, they're really good. You're in the Hall of Fame if you bat 320. He movies for batting average, they're really good. Right. You're in the hall of fame if you bat 320.

Right. He's definitely batting 320. Oh, more than that. Yeah, but I don't know how to, but I get to figure out a way to do that. So I do what I do. And so my long-winded way of answering your question is when I see something great that moves me,

I go, I get mad at myself and go, why aren't you writing? You have to write something. That's really interesting. I was listening to you be interviewed on a film podcast that I like called What Went Wrong? You were talking about Garden State and about how you were writing in your notebook for years. Yeah.

I always, because people ask advice questions about process on here and I always say that, which is writing a notebook. It's a lot of write everything. It's a lot of what you have on your walls. I mean, this is the perfect example of it. I would just have like diploma on ceiling. Cause I went into a neurologist office and there were so many diplomas on the wall.

I was like, this dude gets one more. It's gotta go on the ceiling. That's so funny. So little things like that. And then it's in garden state as a scene. Yeah. And then, you know, the idea of someone really, poorly trying to pitch me their pyramid scheme.

I was like, it's so funny, it's so cringe. So any little, that little thing that Natalie does where like make a weird noise that no one's ever done in this spot and it's like that way you can always feel unique, I literally would do that my whole life. It's just a joke I had with myself. Right. I never told anyone the joke. I literally would do that my whole life. It's just a joke I had with myself. Right. I never told anyone the joke.

I would just do it myself when I was feeling, it was a weird little ticky thing I would do to cheer myself up like no one has ever done this in this moment and made this weird noise. And so it was like the cards on your wall. That's what the movie was in pieces before it started to take a shape. It's interesting you should say that

because there's Phil Lord, who's a great screenwriter director. He gave me notes on a really early draft of Don't Think Twice. And there was this moment where it was an overheard that I had written down on a park bench where someone had said something that struck me as really funny.

And it was straight ripped from life. You know that kind of thing where you write down it over her and you're like, where can I find a home for this? And Phil Lord looked at the script and he goes, you see this line, like this triplet of dialogue? The whole script has to be that. Wow, that's cool.

And I was like, and I took that with me and I was like, oh man, it's like, that's what it is. And that's what I think Garden State is, that's what appeals to me about it is, it just feels alive. Even similar in a good person, this scene and I, spoiler, it happens 45 minutes into, quarter of the way to the movie,

she goes to a bar, she's like struggling with pill addiction. She goes to a bar and there's this conversation with these people she went to high school with who are also at the bar in the morning and then they end up, and it's like a tense conversation about high school and life and addiction and power. And it hurts my stomach. It's so real.

Thank you. For me, that means so much to me. Thank you. When I watched that scene, I'm like, were you at that? Like, did you live that? Not only did I know, I just know that world. You know, when I made a good person,

I said to myself, I was writing the movie, thinking about a dive bar and I thought, well, I wanna shoot at the places I know. I know that gross dive bar in Jersey. Like I wanna shoot there. Yeah. When I wrote the principal's office where Morgan Freeman goes to consult the principal,

like I wanna shoot at my high school principal's office. Oh my gosh. The duck pond where he goes to sit. I was like, my mom used to take me there. So I brought all of these people to the real places. But it does the same thing that I feel like I'm getting at with writing in your notebook, which is it feels like life. Which I think is the goal of it,

of like so many things in movies, it's artifice that you're patching together, but hopefully the artifice is life bits. I don't yet know how to write outside of my life. I would love to learn. I hope it's not too late to learn. I don't think so. Well, you're so good at that too.

I write just like experiences from my life. I mean, Garden State was what I was going through in my twenties. Yeah. Wish I Was Here, which I wrote with my brother was about, you know, kind of a combination of things that were going on in our lives and our fear of our father dying

and what that's like for young men. And then, you know, this movie was about grief, which I had experienced and going through COVID and how you stand back up after such a painful fall. When you direct Morgan Freeman, which you've done twice. Twice, yeah. It's like, at a certain point you just go, yeah, you just do whatever you want.

You know, it's a funny question. I'm also directing Harrison Ford now on Shrinking. And these guys, it's so interesting. They really want a leader, right? Everyone thinks like, are you so intimidated? Of course you're intimidated. But then once you get over your own shit, these fellas, in my experience,

I directed Michael Caine too to like some of these, the late Alan Arkin, they want to, like anybody, they don't want you to not have a, like any actor, they want you to have a vision and know what you're doing. Right, there needs to be a coach. On the World Cup soccer team, there is a coach. Exactly, Morgan Freeman and Harrison Ford just don't suffer fools. So if you have a plan and you know what you're doing

and you're normal around them, I mean, I'm faking being normal around them, but I'm a decent actor. I get along really well with both of them because they don't want someone who's scared. Right. They don't want that. They don't want someone who's like,

what would you do? They don't want that who's scared. Right. They don't want that. They don't want someone who's like, what would you do? They don't want that. They want a plan. They want you to act normal. And then on top of that, in both cases, both men really enjoy acting. They love it. So once you're into it and you're an actor,

also, I do think it helps that I'm an actor because even though I'm nowhere near in their stratosphere, we can talk acting in a different way. 100%. And they love acting. I think those men love acting. So we can talk about it from an acting point of view,

not just a directing point of view. There's like a viral clip of Ethan Hawke talking about this interview because you don't see a lot of cinematographers that become directors. You see a lot of actors become directors because it's essentially the same thing. And in addition to knowing how to talk about acting, it's also like how to navigate a set

so that it's going to be the best environment for a performance to come out of it. Right, do you know what I mean? Well, that's all it is, right? That's all it is. Right, so I heard someone say like, if you look at like the greatest scenes in cinema history, you know, like Brando in the back of the car

saying, I could have been a kindergartener, it was a Tuesday, you know, like Brando in the back of the car saying, I could have been a contender. It was a Tuesday, you know? Yes, yes. It was a Tuesday after lunch. They were like, all right, we're gonna do the back of the car. Could have been a contender scene, everybody. That's right.

That's right. Or De Sica with Bicycle Thieves. Can we walk away, please? We're gonna rehearse a contender back of the, you know. That's exactly right. All these iconic scenes. Here's looking at you, kid. Was just a day on Casablanca.

Right. So how do you have the best odds in a short amount of time of creating an environment? And I think actors who've been on lots of sets know this. Like, I'm not gonna do well if the set has this vibe. I'm not gonna do well if you put this scene at the end of the day. I'm not gonna do well if everyone's in my eyeline

and you're trying to... So I know how to create an environment well, perhaps on set where people are gonna flourish. What's the trick? At its most basic, I think of it like throwing a wedding. I don't want the guests to know about all the craziness behind the scenes. And a movie is shooting a wedding.

Let's say I have 26 days. I'm doing 26 different weddings in 26 days in 26 different locations. And that's the logistics. Now in all those logistics, there's gonna be so many problems. It's a problem every hour. Yes.

But the actors don't know about any of that. They're the guests at the wedding. Everybody else is behind those folded screens. You know what I mean? Yes. So that's the most basic way I summarize it is, I create an environment where they are so comfortable, the performers are so comfortable as they can be,

so that they feel safe to be present and do their best work. Because if they know that the catering truck's on fire or if they know we can't find one of the camera bodies, they could feel stressed in some way that is so unnecessary for them to feel stressed. Right, because ultimately ultimately acting is so much about relaxation. Exactly.

And if you're giving them cause to feel tense, then you're not doing anyone any favors. Exactly, so how do I create the coolest, most fun, relaxed, chill environment where no one's in your eyeline, who doesn't need to be, no one's raising their voice, who doesn't need to be, no one's raising their voice, who doesn't need to be. They don't need to worry about that we're running at a time. I just create a really comfortable environment. And in that space, you can get really cool, magical things

because the people are present. If you look at Morgan's performance, both Morgan and Florence have these AA monologues in a good person that are pretty extraordinary, I think as someone who likes the craft of acting. Florence is so good in that movie. It was one of those ones where you just go like, oh, that's that person.

You lose, you forget the celebrity of the person. She's just next level, man. I don't know what to say other than she's one of, as people who love the craft of acting, she's one of those people that you're like, whoa. I mean, I don't follow basketball, but I imagine how people are when they see Steph Curry. I did see him hit three threes in a row at the Olympics.

It's like, that's how I feel about Florence as a performer. It's like, I have famous, we dated for a while and huge famous celebrities would come up to me like, what's she like? That's so funny. Because they're just in awe of how special her talent is. Yeah, it's interesting we were talking about this idea of a film needs a leader the way a team needs a coach

and all that kind of stuff. It's like, how did you do it on your first movie? Because it's like, when I directed Sleepwalk with me, I faked it for the most part. But then I think a few people who were veterans kind of seized on my lack of leadership at points. And I learned that lesson for the second one to come in with a lot more leadership and vision.

I was very, I was, it's funny. I didn't know what I didn't know, which was one of the best things that I was so naive. I mean, I had gone to film school, I had PA'd on lots of sets. So I had some knowledge. I made a really cool short film that I was proud of in school that was 25 minutes long.

So I felt like I knew what I was doing and I knew the script really well, it was my story. Also, I always say people always ask me, what's it like to direct yourself? And you can relate to this, I'm sure. Although it's incredibly stressful, we can talk about that. One thing that is removed is the hardest thing

in filmmaking is that the lead actor and the director are on the same page. Because there's so much time can be lost in bad communication or in not getting it or in cringing and going, we gotta move on, I think we got it. But I always knew that I was on the same page with myself. I knew that I got what I wanted for that character from me.

I did the best I could and we gotta move on. And so there was relief in that at least. When you direct like Ted Lasso or Shrinking or these other things, do you have to change your directorial voice to fit into what their show is? That's a great question. You have to fit into the lexicon of the show.

Yeah. So you have to be, now the great thing with Lasso was I was directing the second episode of the whole series and the pilot had such heavy lifting to set up the premise because it was complicated to get what the hell's going on. And so the pilot had a heavy lift and I was so blessed to get episode two, which was the one about the biscuits

that was gonna show the audience, oh, also this show is gonna break your heart. Oh, interesting. And so I felt like with that one, I was helping Jason and Bill and the team find the tone of the show. I got to really participate in what the look and tone was gonna be.

With Shrinking, I came in on episode eight, it's season one, you're still doing that, but you gotta go, okay, this show doesn't do big ass crane moves. This show is very static. There isn't a dolly push at this moment. You have to really sort of study what the rules of the world are.

Yeah. The tone, I mean, tone is so crucial, right? So, if you look at the tone of Lasso and Shrinking, they're both, they're both Bill Lawrence shows, but they're both very, they're both, and they're both comedies, but they're different in tone. Yeah, well, it's funny, when you came to the new one on Broadway, you were like,

if you had a prompter, I would do this show. You're like, I would do, I would do this show for a week. Oh, your show? Yeah, you would play me for a week on Broadway? Yeah, I was making a joke, but I was kind of serious. I saw the new one, I was so blown away by you. Did I come to like a preview? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

You were walking around with a giant binder. I was walking around with a binder, that's right. Yeah. Because I was still working on the show. I know, but I find that crazy that you were still working on it, working it out. And I just loved it. And I thought I had such admiration for the idea of it,

but I would love to do that. I hope if I ever have the balls to that you'd give me some Mr. Miyagi-ing. I would love to see you do a solo show. Thank you. I really, the idea of doing, telling a story, which I love telling stories. Yeah.

That's what it was for me that was so special about your work is you're such a good storyteller and they're so personal. I just didn't know anyone who's doing it like that. There's so many that are great, but then they don't break your heart. And I'm such a fan of like, make me laugh and then break my heart.

So much of my work is inspired by that concept. Make me laugh and then please break my heart. Because if you don't, then I'm let down. For sure. No, I think that's absolutely true. What do you think is the event in your life, real life, that could be a main event of a solo show. I've been thinking about this.

In fact, I've been thinking about it more because I was coming to see you. And I think it was, I did this trip through Europe with my first love in college. And so many, it was my first experience being in love and we had a lot of crazy experiences including her ex-boyfriend sort of following us around Europe.

And a lot of insane things happened but a lot of really beautiful heartbreaking things happened. So, and then it was sort of three chapters to it because there was this experience in Europe and then years later, we're kind of working it out. Working out. Oh, I know we are working it out.

I didn't realize that. It's happening, fell into it. I didn't mean to. But then I was thinking that years later, I was then so many of this, so that's college, we're talking 95-ish. Then years later, I'm now quote unquote famous and I'm being photographed for GQ Magazine

in suits in Amsterdam and I'm going through a breakup and I'm very, very depressed and I'm eating Xanax like they're Altoids. It's just so I can make it through the day to do a photo shoot for GQ Magazine on boats, going through the canals of Amsterdam. And I run into the first love of my life's parents who are there because they've moved there.

And so I have a whole night with them, which is a kind of chapter two in Yeah. In that chapter of my life. And then there's a third chapter that I won't get into yet because I don't understand it and it will be spoilers. But that's sort of the beginnings. I would love to talk about my discovery of heartbreak in those formative years. Yeah, there's something so evocative about that.

And it's hard to not, when you're describing it, it's hard to not see it as a film because the scenery of it is so stunning. I know, but I think it could be a pretty film, but also could maybe have its genesis in a one-man show. Yeah, on stage. Yeah, and also you could work out some of the joke beats. Yeah. Which is fun. Yeah, yeah. It feels like out some of the joke beats. Yeah.

Which is fun. Yeah, yeah. It feels like something that could start as a- And monologue. As a monologue. I love that. Some of the stories are so, an audience would enjoy some of the insane things

that happened on this European trip so much. Sure. Like you see where the laughs are. I'll tell you one anecdote from it. This boyfriend was following us all through Europe and he would just show up in the cities we were in. We were backpacking the whole thing, taking trains. And it was Christmas day in Rome.

And she said, I'd like to go to this service across town in Rome for Christmas. It's really, it's the crack of dawn. Do you wanna go? And I thought about it and I really didn't. It was so early. And she's like, it's okay. It's fine if you don't wanna go.

Would you mind if I went with so-and-so? My ex. Yeah, he's in town and he's also Christian like I am. And she goes, if it's weird, it's fine, it's just a service. And then you and I'll meet up and we'll spend the day together. And I didn't wanna be too jealous. I mean, the whole thing was insane.

As I look back at now at my age, I go, what the hell is going on? Like, I still don't know. But anyway, I said, fine, go do it. They went, and then when we, there were no cell, we didn't have cell phones at the time. It was 95. In Rome on Christmas day at a certain point,

the whole public transportation system shuts down. So we never were able to meet up and I spent the day wandering Rome alone and they spent the day wandering. Oh my God, that's a great story. It's a good piece of something. Alright, this is the slow round. What's a song that makes you cry? But for you it would have to be what's a song that changed your life?

I mean, gosh, that's such a hard question. My brain instantly just said Cat Stephen something. Yeah. I don't know. Peachtrain, Wild World. Yeah. I don't know. Peachtrain, Wild World, you know? That's just songs I grew up with. Like I grew up with like listening to,

whereas other kids were listening to pop, I was more listening to singer songwriter, James Taylor, Cat Stevens. Same. Billy Joel. That stuff. That was my first concert, Billy Joel. Really? Stormfront. I love Billy Joel.

Oh yeah. What was your first concert? You know, Really? Storm front. I love Billy Joel. Oh yeah. What was your first concert? You know, it was rush at MSG and I left early because I was so drunk. What? The most Jersey sentence I've ever, the most, I'm about to say the most New Jersey thing I've ever said.

I took the New Jersey transit into MSG with friends. We got 40 ounces, illegally, at a bodega with the brown paper bags and we pounded them like it was ice water. And then I went into MSG and I remember I was already spinning and they hadn't even started yet and I was like spinning. And I just stood up and I walked to Penn Station and took the train home. I didn't talk to anyone.

I didn't tell anyone. I feel like, and I literally, I think I saw like three Rush songs and there was no cell phones. Obviously my friends thought I died. They had no idea what happened to me. I just, I got up. My friends thought I died. I said to myself at a very young age,

I must've been 16, I am too drunk to be in public. I think the wise thing to do would be for me to walk home alone and go home to New Jersey. And I just took the train home to New Jersey. I remember walking in, my parents were like, you're home early. I was like, yeah, just tired. And then I was, that was my first concert.

Okay, what do you think, friends and family, like what are people's favorite and least favorite thing about you? I think their favorite thing is that I'm very loving. I'm very good friend. I'm very loving. I'm very affectionate. I'm very supportive.

I'm very generous. I'm like a great friend. I really am. If we're close, like I'm a really, really good very generous. I'm like a great friend. I really am. If we're close, like I'm a really, really good friend. You're a mensch. Yeah, I show up for people, be there for you. If you're in my friend group and I love you and we love each other, like I'll do anything for you.

And I'm very present and loving. What are they not like about me? I think I can also, and it's gonna sound opposite of that, but I can also, when I get down and depressed, disappear. When I get a little melancholic, which happens sometimes, I also shutter up and kind of disappear. And the interrelationship of that is hard, I can only imagine.

Yeah, because there's, you know, when you're in it and you're sort of battling a sad time, it's hard to be present and be there for everybody. Do you remember a feeling of pure joy? Yeah, watching a Garden State premiere at the Sundance Film Festival in the back of Eccles Theater,

which is the big theater there. Yeah, yeah. And I just couldn't believe it. I can only imagine. I couldn't believe it. I couldn't believe it was happening. And I just started weeping, weeping from joy. I think I've cried tears of joy only a few times in my life.

And that was one of them, like I cannot believe this just happened. Wow. Yeah. Another one was my first real kiss. I had such a crush on this girl. I think it was maybe eighth grade. And I walked her home and I was so enamored with her.

and I was so enamored with her and I'd never had like a open mouth tongue kiss, like a real one. And it was like cold and her nose was cold. And I think like she stood on her tip toes and we kissed and it was just, I think I remember walking home being like, how could life be any better than it is right now? Oh, that's beautiful. Well, I think you've won the slow round.

No one's ever won it. You've had some fancy people on here. I'm sure they've won it. There's some fancy people, but they didn't win it. Do I get to ask you any questions? You kind of do, why not? What do you do when you feel like you're not being productive enough?

You feel like you're being lazy or you're fucking off to do fun things instead of putting in the work? Particularly early in my career, I had this where I thought, because I feel like we're raised in this universe where we're like, I need to make the thing, but I really need to market myself. Yes.

Cause if I could just market myself, people will purchase who I am and then I will be done. I'll be good to go kind of thing. I'll be discovered so to speak. And at a certain point, I realized you got to discover yourself and then you gotta just keep creating and that the creation is the thing

that people are drawn to. If you create something that's great, people are really drawn to that thing. That's so well said. No one really, no one cares about you waving your arms. No. They don't. No.

And especially because you know you can do it because you've done it successfully before and people want more. You know what I mean? But I think I fall into that trap over and over again, just to a lesser extent with age, but like in my 20s, I was definitely like, I gotta get out there so people can find me.

And it's like, no, no, no, there is no find you. You just have to create because that's the thing that people need. Yeah. It's funny, you can get, one can get so caught up in the, I have to do this, as you're saying, wave my arms and, but really what you need to be doing is creating more work. Yeah, I think that's it.

And just getting better. I mean, I think that's the big thing. Do you think you get better every time? I'd like to think so. I think I get more, there's actually one of my questions for you is like, when you're handing a script to someone for feedback, what's the feedback that's helpful to you?

Alexander Payne gave me great advice. He read my script and sent me a quote that I don't have memorized, but it was basically saying, you know, be more restrained in places where you're, the audience is gonna be so with you, you can be more restrained than your writing, which is something I... And of course he does so well.

That's why I wanted his notes because I think he's a master. Holdovers is a perfect example of his movie last year. It's just like so restrained. Yeah, my problem to be honest is as an audience member, I don't always want you to be honest is as an audience member, I don't always want you to be restrained. I grew up on like musical theater. Right.

I saw Les Mis Robbins like the eighties and I was like, this was like a formative piece of art for me, which is like the least restrained thing in the world. Sure. So I... Opera basically. It's opera.

Yeah. I's opera. Yeah. I love that. Yeah. And so I've fought in my writing, trying to be restrained. And with the help of people, people's notes and of course a great editor, I do pull it back, but people who critique me,

still will say that I'm pushing it and maudlin and wearing my heart on my sleeve in a bad way. And I understand the criticism, but I also feel like, gosh, that's kind of who I am. Maybe I don't know how to, I need Alexander Payne to like do an editorial pass of my work so he can pull it all back. But also sometimes I fight that and go,

but that's not really, that's not being me and the audience who does love what I do likes it. Yeah, absolutely. I have, when I ask for feedback, a lot of times I'm just asking where people were confused in the script or the show. Like were you ever confused at what was going on? A one man show like yours is hard to give notes on.

I think I gave you a thought. Yeah. I think you totally ignored it, but I- Ignored it, yeah. Yeah, you did. Yeah. I think I was like, it was actually was my note was something like, I loved this, do it more.

Oh, okay. I think it was the sound effects thing. There's that moment where the bell rings. Yeah, that's right. I loved it. And you were probably, again, this is an example of restraint. This is a perfect articulation of it.

I was like, that moved me, give me more. Find more little moments of that gentle sound effect. Whereas you brilliantly went the pain route and said, what if I gave it to you once? Well, that's, and that's Seth Barish very much is being subtle and calibrating. But see, we tried it more, but my mistake would be like, ooh, that gave me goosebumps.

I'm gonna put it three times in the show now. That's something I battle. Yeah, I get that. I know you mean. I mean, I think we all battle it. Do you ask the audience as a whole for feedback ever? Not on a thousand people. I read the laughter and if there's a laughter,

I feel like I'm in a good place. If there's gasps, I feel like I'm in a good place. If there's gasps, I feel like I'm in a good place. There's a line currently in the show that gets a gasp, which is I was having an argument with my dad and it was really, really tense and it was in my 20s. And at the end of it, he goes, you've really gone another way. And it was hard for me.

It was really, really painful. And I'm driving away and it's hitting me. My whole life, I sort of wanted to be my dad. And at a certain point I realized I wanted him to be me. Oh, I love that. And the audience, like when I did it the first time, I gasped. Yeah, they hold their chests.

Cause there's something in it. And when I hear that, I'm like, okay, that stays in. Yeah, of course. Cause that's, to get a gasp at a comedy show, you go, okay, there's something here. Yeah. And I wrote this down today, I thought it was funny. I was walking down the street,

this woman was talking to her daughter, and she has her phone out, and she prompts the phone to do it, play a song. She goes, spider song. And then it's like, the phone starts playing like some dance song about spiders. And then she goes, itsy bitsy spider song. And then it's not even the one,

it's another even the one. It's another itsy bitsy spider. And then she goes, itsy bitsy spider walked up the water spout, out came the rain and washed the spider out. I go, just sing the fucking song. Just sing, that's your child. That's funny.

It's funny, I wrote that today. That's funny. It's itsy bitsy spider. I like that. And then the other one today was, I was asked to do a Harris political fundraiser and I wrote back, sure. And they wrote back, we're going to do a background check

to make sure you're not a foreign agent. And I wrote back, uh-oh. Ha ha. Which is not true. But the first part is true, the foreign agent part is true. It's funny that they're going to do a background check to make sure, well, they're probably going It's funny that they're gonna do a background check to make sure, well, they're probably gonna do a lot of,

they do a lot of checks on you and see if you've got any. I'm sure. Yeah, I met Obama a couple times and I think that they do recon on you. Yeah, no, I think so too. I had the same thing. I mean, you know what's really funny?

There's something, you can't help, even if you've led a crime-free life to go, is there anything they're going to find? Like, what are they going to dig up on me? That, you know, like, no, no, he. I was, I met Obama at an event and I was working on the movie Trainwreck at the time. And Judd Apatow goes, oh, you're meeting Obama?

He goes, turn your audio recorder on on your phone and record the whole thing. I go, are you out of your fucking mind? Wow. Like, can you imagine if you were recording? If you got caught, yeah. And then the Secret Service goes, step over here, and then they go, can we see your phone's fucking recording?

That's so crazy. So embarrassing, so you did it. No, I see. I don't know. I don't know. We're going to end with a thing we do called Working Out For A Cause. If you have a nonprofit that you think does a nice job, yeah, the Midnight Mission is a charity in downtown Los Angeles that helps people that don't have a house and are very often on drugs and will give anyone a bed and give anyone food

and water and a place to sleep. Well, that's great. We will contribute to the Midnight Mission. We will link to them in the show notes and encourage listeners to contribute as well. I love talking to you. I could talk to you forever. I'll talk all day.

You're very interesting. And I'm glad you had me. I can't wait to see where that project goes. Yeah, well I'm gonna reach out to you. I would love that. Working it out, cause it's not done. We're working it out, cause there's no. That'll do it for another episode of Working It Out. You can follow Zach Braff on Instagram at ZachBraff.

Season 2 Shrinking, which he directed a couple episodes, is on Apple TV Plus on October 16th. He's also acting on Bad Monkey with Vince Vaughn on Apple TV Plus as well. You can watch the full video of this episode on our YouTube page, at Mike Berbiglia. Subscribe, because we're gonna post many more videos. Check out berbigs.com. To sign up for the mailing list, to be the first to know about my upcoming shows,

our producers of Working It Out are myself, along with Peter Salomon, Joseph Berbiglia, and Mabel Lewis, Associate Producer Gary Simons. Sound mix by Kate Belinsky. Special thanks to Jack Antonoff and Bleachers for their music. I'm getting ready to see them at Madison Square Garden. I'm so excited.

Special thanks as always to my wife, the poet J. Hope Stein. Her audio book for Little Astronaut is available in audio book places. Special thanks as always to our daughter, Una, who built the original radio fort made of pillows. Thanks most of all to you who are listening. If you enjoy the show, please rate and review us on Apple Podcasts.

We're almost at 4,000 user reviews. We are so grateful. If you're new to the podcast and you enjoy this episode, there are almost 150 episodes we have already made. Since June of 2020, they are all free. No paywall. We've had Quinta Brunson and Gary Gullman and Seth Meyers and Conan O'Brien. Check out our back catalog comment on Apple Podcasts. Which one is your favorite so people know where to start? Thanks most of all to you who are listening. Tell your friends. Even tell your enemies. Let's say

you're on a trip to Europe and your partner's ex-boyfriend is kind of following you around Europe. And you say, you know, this is sort of fun that you're doing this right now, following us around. But you know, one thing you could do is you could sort of go in another direction, you could go backpacking or on some kind of Eurorail train and you can just listen to this podcast. Actually, I think you

might like this podcast where creatives talk out their ideas and talk about craft and I just think you'll enjoy it. There's 150 episodes, so we'll see in a few weeks. Thanks everybody. We're working it out. We'll see you next time.