Mike Birbiglia's Working It Out - 146. Jack Antonoff Returns: Working Out the New Theme Song

Episode Date: September 30, 2024

11-time Grammy winner, celebrated rock star, and noted Working It Out theme song composer Jack Antonoff returns to the podcast. Mike and Jack discuss Jack’s performing with Taylor Swift and collaborating with Sabrina Carpenter, why cynicism can’t exist in a live performance, and the joys of Tim Robinson’s sketch show “I Think You Should Leave.” Plus, Mike reads excerpts from his wedding speech/roast of Jack, and a musical working it out session in which a new theme for the show is born.Please consider donating to The Ally Coalition

people's personal opinions on the concept of success, colors so much. I was saying this to someone, I had an interview today with Billboard and the person was like, this is something I get off there, like you do so many things. And I was like, well, I really don't.

I think what you're reflecting on is that maybe you find it awkward how hungry I am. Cause when I was 22 and I was in steel train, I was producing my friends records and riding and touring in a van that I would attach the trailer myself all around the country No one was like you do so much. They were just like get it As the voice of the great Jack Antonov Jack of course was on the podcast years ago, but now he's back He's in the studio. A lot has happened with Jack Andanof.

He is a very busy person. For starters, he got married to the great actress Margaret Qualley. I was at the wedding last summer. We talk about that on the show today. That's a huge life shift. He's made a whole bunch of albums with his band Bleachers, with Taylor Swift and Lana Del Rey

and Bruce Springsteen and Zane Vincent and a list goes on and on and on. He won the Grammy for Producer of the Year three years in a row. I'm speechless. I've known Jack for years, 20 years, since before he was producer of the year. And he's been in so many bands. He was in a band called Steel Train, that's when I met him. He was in a band called Fun. Now he's in a band called Bleachers, who I love. Their two recent albums are so fantastic.

One of them is self-titled Bleachers. The other one is a rendition of their first album called Stranger Desired. And it is beautiful. It's like stripped down versions of the original songs. I just love it. Bleachers will be, it's sold out, but it's exciting to talk about.

He's gonna be playing Madison Square Garden with Bleachers this Friday. I'm going. Maybe I'll see you there. If you see me, just go, tell your friends, tell your enemies, and I'll know. I'll know you heard me here. Bleachers is on tour right now. They've been going all over the place. They're in Europe. Obviously, I'm on tour right now. I've got the Please Stop the Ride Tour. We just recently announced some shows in West Palm Beach at the Cravis Center. It's just a little, just a little, I think it's like a 300-seat black box theater there at the Cravis Center. I'm really excited about it. It's Thanksgiving weekend, November 29 and 30.

Tickets are for Biggs.com. Of, I will also be in Philadelphia in October. I'll be in Minneapolis. I'll be in Madison, Milwaukee, Champaign, Illinois, Indianapolis, Ann Arbor, Detroit, Dayton, Pittsburgh. Come on, Louisville, Nashville, Knoxville, Asheville, Charleston, South Carolina. Again, I said this on the last podcast. I'm making a New York City announcement very, very soon. So join the mailing list to be the first to know because those New York shows sell out so quick. New York City announcement for March.

And then I'm gonna make an announcement about a bunch of other places like California and Iowa and maybe Vermont, maybe Western Massachusetts. I don't know why I'm saying this when it's not actually public, and maybe Vermont, maybe Western Massachusetts. I don't know why I'm saying this when it's not actually public, but that's what's coming. I hope you enjoy this episode with Jack Antonov as much as I did.

We just go really deep on process. We make fun of each other a lot. It's a lot like the Pete Holmes episode. Just know it is all pure love. Thanks for tuning in today. Enjoy my chat with the great Jack Antonoff. Ooh. Ooh, workin' it.

I feel like I started this podcast and just blew up without me. Okay, fair. Remember when I was away, now it's like, I feel like I'm returning home to a space that I reckon, like now it's on a different floor. Yeah, it's on the third floor of the building.

Did you even tell the people who watch? What? Do they know it's different? Who? The people who watch that you just moved the space to like a nicer space. No, we didn't. No, we didn't mention it. But I feel like-

I received nothing from this. And I just listened and I listened. I did so much listening. And you did the theme song for the show. And we're gonna rework it today. We're gonna do a new version. Maybe. Okay, I brought a guitar.

I brought a Martin guitar. And then the thing just takes flight and everyone listens to it. It's big. Mikey from my band the other day was like, have you heard Brighidlius' podcast? And I felt like it was similar to somebody and like, do you know Rachel Antonoff? And I was like, how can you ask me that?

This is like that scene in Wayne's World when... Where it becomes over commercialized. Wayne's World goes corporate. The fact that there's mugs, like how do you even make these? But we're not corporate Where it becomes over commercialized. Wayne's World goes corporate. The fact that there's mugs, like how do you even make these? But we're not corporate, it's an independent podcast. But then who made these? We did.

We just went to a merch company, the same way that your New Jersey's Finest New Yorker hat is made by a company. That doesn't feel corporate. Oh God. Did I blaze too quickly into our actual relationship? No, no, I like our actual relationship. I'm just gonna bring people up to speed.

But people might not understand. Jack and I are old friends and we burn each other, not unlike myself and Pete Holmes. So if you know the Pete Holmes episodes. No, it's in jest. I like the idea of when I'm around people that know you of presenting that there's like a darker spirit in there just because Mike has made such a,

Mike is a nice guy and there's nothing better than rooting out someone who is saying they're a nice guy. So I spend a lot of time planting seeds that aren't sure about you. I think, I agree with you though. I'm annoyed by the nice guy industry in comedy. Well, it's tough. And I always try to fight against it on the show.

In all, whether it's comedy or art, I'm pretty much uninterested in anyone selling themselves as a nice guy or a piece of shit. Me too. Even when people are like, you know what, fuck it, I'm a piece of shit now. I'm kind of like, it's a bit all lacking nuance to me, so I don't like either.

I agree. Yeah, like so, and I know a lot of comedians these days are like, fuck it, I'm a piece of shit, and it's like, well, that sucks. Yeah. And then when someone's like currency is that they're a great person, I'm like, that's obnoxious too.

Yeah. So, okay, when you and I met. In like 1971. We met in the aughts. We did, for real. We met at Bonnaroo and I remember. We had kind of a flirty hello. Flirty hello.

Do you remember at the craft services at Bonnaroo? Yes. We were putting barbecue sauce on each other's faces. You, me and Rachel. And licking it off. Possibly licking it off. And we had sex. We made love in barbecue sauce and it was beautiful. This part's true.

At one point it was me, you and Lewis Black were talking and I remember thinking like, whoa, like, you know, I don't know, comedians. And you guys were like, just like, I think when comedians talk, they do this overly, sort of like seriousness. And it was the first time I've witnessed it.

And now I've seen you do it with many, many times. I don't know if I talk to musicians a certain way, but it's almost like the idea of being funny is so far from the, do you know what I mean at all? This is one of my questions for you about music. What? Because you're producing so many things. You're producing your albums, you're producing other people's albums. You questions for you about music. What? Because you're producing so many things, you're producing your albums,

you're producing other people's albums. You listen to so much music, how do you relax? Because everybody else listens to music without music. I relax with TV. TV. I listen to music, well, I don't really listen to music if I'm not feeling it. But the nice thing about my job is I don't have to,

I go on when I feel like making things, which has been a lot lately. But after I listen to what I'm doing, I'm really separate from things. I pretty much only listen to the stuff I'm working on. And then I go home and last night we watched G.I. Jane, we watched a little bit of Rocky. I'm excited for Severance to come back.

I can really watch any, I'm- You and I, you and I have talked at length about I think you should leave. It's the greatest. So funny. It's the greatest. I think you should leave does to me what like Adam Sandler did when I was younger,

where it's like, it changes the way we speak. All right, we're gonna get back to music in a second because it's your expertise. This is the one thing that I give you full permission to cut up and use as a salacious clip to get people's attention. You ready? Thank you. I'm not going to say the name of the person, all right?

But I was with actually a group of people and I was in a moving vehicle, right? And I was like, it had a TV and I was like, everyone was like, what should we watch? And I was like, trust me, let's put on coffin flops. Have you guys seen that? And they're like, no, we haven't seen it. I was like, everyone was like, what should we watch? And I was like, trust me, let's put on Cough and Flop. You guys seen that? And they were like, no, we haven't seen it. I was like, put it on.

And we put it on and it was in my adult life, one of the only times that I ever felt truly sad and small and they didn't think it was funny. Oh no. And they made fun of me for thinking it was funny. No. And one day I'll tell you who it was. Barack Obama.

Well. Might as well. Might as well a bit, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I get you. No, it wasn you who it was. Barack Obama. Well. Might as well. Might as well have been, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, might get you. No, it wasn't, it was Hillary. And that's why she lost. That's why she lost, yeah. One day I'll explain who it was,

when I feel ready to it. Wow. To do so. And, but I'll- Publicly or just privately? But I'll never forgive them. Oh my gosh. I'll never forgive them for two things. Mostly what I wouldn't forget them for

is not thinking cough and flop is funny because if you don't think that's funny, I don't know how we can relate as people. Yeah, sure. A, but then B, to shame someone, right? Anyway, one day I'll tell you who shamed me for cough and flop. God. And fuck them, man.

Oh, wow. That's interesting. Fuck them. You don't have a lot of fuck them energy. No, it takes a lot to, that was one of the few times someone made me feel small. Wow. I don't mind if people disagree with me or don't like me, but I don't like when anyone makes someone else feel small,

which unfortunately we spend a lot of time doing to each other, but I like it when you do it. Oh, good. Your speech at my wedding was, I mean, I don't know if I'll ever recover. I'm gonna read some of it. Did you bring it? Yeah, I printed it out.

Are you serious? I printed it out, yeah. Are you joking? I printed it out just in case. I didn't even know that. It seems like I would have been leading. It seems like you were okay with me reading some of these.

We can come out of here. When I look at Jack and Margaret, just superficially, just their appearance, it really speaks to the power of music. I mean, I guess the reason why I like it and it doesn't make me feel bad is mean as it technically is. And I wanna say that I really like the way I look, Mike,

is because it's so smart and it's so brilliant that I can't even make fun of you. Jack's parents are amazing Rick and Shira. I've never met two parents who feel more invited. I don't know if people would get that. They're overbearing. Parents are overbearing. I love them.

I love Rick and Shira. I think of them like family. They're a bit much. For who? Not for me. For me. For you? Yeah. Well, you know, I mean. They're a bit much. For who? Not for me. For me. For you? Yeah. Well, you know, I mean. They're just around.

I don't leave my parents in Shrewsbury, Massachusetts and just upload porn to their computer. Margaret, you're beautiful like a classic statue at a Parisian museum and Jack, you're like the security guard at that museum. Antisemitic. Oh my God. Just is.

Just is. Are security guards Jewish? Often Jewish? Oh, yeah. Okay. Apologies to the listeners. Biddy, bidi, bidi, bidi, bidi. At the Grammys, Jack won Producer of the Year, and with his friends, he won Least Replies

to Urgent Text Messages Award with the hit single I totally forgot you had a baby. That fucking killed with your friends so hard. It's something I still argue about with people. I don't think. I don't think, like, whenever someone's like, I texted you, I'm like, I got it. Like, I don't think. This is an outrage.

This is not an outrage. Okay. I think we, I got it. Like, I don't think- This is an outrage. It's not an outrage. Okay. I think we all have to do our own, like if I text you, if I'm like, I'm bleeding, I think you should write back, right? If I text you, I think there is a period of time that is or isn't rude. Yeah.

I think we disagree on that period and I think I disagree with a lot of people because I've gotten this criticism before. But if I get your message, do you think I have to respond right away? I mean, it's a modern challenge. It's a challenge of modern times. I don't think anybody knows.

There's no etiquette. But everyone's mad at me about it. Yeah, but kids are mad at you because they don't know, like in my case, it's like, there are days where I'm like, wait, are Jack and I still friends? That's insane. Yeah, but it's like, that's how you feel sometimes. You're like, if he doesn't write back, are we friends?

I write back. And we also have long conversations. We do real catch-ups. I know. We do real catch-ups. Would you rather me to respond to every dumb thing you write me about one of your, ha ha ha ha, about one of your comedian friends. What are my comedian friends?

I never text you about one of my comedian friends. Some gripe you have with a close comedian friend. That's not real. No, I feel- You're paraphrasing my movies. You know what else bothers me? When I call someone and then they write back five minutes. Yeah.

And I'm like. That's a power move. When I'm like, the assumption is I'm free in five minutes. Right. Right? All right. So when I met you, you were traveling around the country in a van and with Steel Train, your first band. You've had Steel Train, Fun, Bleachers.

Those are your band. Those are all three bands that you were in. There was one before it. Oh, there's one before that. But we only did one tour. In high school. Yeah. What, okay, from when I met you when you were in Steel Train

in like 2005, 2006, and now, what in your life is different, what's the same? I feel like my life is exactly the same. The context of it has just, or like the outfit it's in has changed. I think one thing I love about songwriting and producing and performing, and I wonder if you feel this way about touring,

is this deep soul thing that I do, right? This thing buzzing inside me is totally unchanged. If I play to five people or 50,000 people, I'm doing the exact same thing. It's the same exact thing. The connection is the same, but then everything sort of changes around it. Songwriting is the most unchanged thing.

It's like writing for you. Like if you were trying to write another hour or something like this, right? If someone was like, I want to invest a trillion dollars into you writing an hour, you'd be like, thanks. There's not one thing you could do to make your hour better.

There's no, you don't need to hire anyone. Like that's what songwriting is. And essentially, as much as I enjoy working in nice studios, it's the same thing with producing. It's like the act of producing is complicated, but like songwriting producing, the most debased version of it is like, you hear something in your head or feel it in your body,

and then you have to take this thing and then make it something that someone could hit play on. Dumbest way I could put it, but the truth. I don't need a hundred engineers. It wouldn't help, it would actually hurt. And so I love it, same thing with the band, for playing biggest show ever, if we're playing for three people,

our goal to make it feel like the last night on earth remains and so as much as my life has changed outwardly in many ways, the things that I spend 99% of my day doing, this is what I love about producing, writing and touring. Although the outfit has changed, the soul of them is exactly the same and there is nothing I could do to make myself any, I just feel like no different than I was

when I was a kid writing or my twenties or now, I'm just sort of there hoping to grab it, wondering if I've written my last song. Yeah. And I think that's interesting, goes for you too. They're hoping to grab it, wondering if I've written my last song. And I think that's interesting, goes for you too. People write their last song, write their last film, stop being prolific as a comic or a writer often before they die. And that's a really harsh fact.

Some don't, most ice the cake towards the end. Some destroy the whole thing, unfortunately. But most just sort of put it away and let it be on display. And I don't know one writer who doesn't feel that every song they wrote may be the last one. And that's a really jarring and like humbling feeling. So sorry to give the longest answer ever, but my life has changed in so many ways. Finally you're saying something.

I know, not just trolling. My life has changed in so many ways, but I don't know, you've known me for, I also think people's personal opinions on the concept of success colors so much. I was saying this to someone, I had an interview today with Billboard and the person was like, this is something I get a lot,

they're like, you do so many things, and I was like, well, I really don't. I think what you're reflecting on is that maybe you find it awkward how hungry I am. Because when I was 22 and I was in Steel Train, I was producing my friends' records and riding and touring in a van that I would attach the trailer myself

all around the country, no one was like, you do so much, they were just like, get it. You know, right? Yes. And it's like, actually I don't do that much. I woke up at 10 45 AM this morning. I think people don't recognize often because there's a lot of bad actors, you know,

carrying torches, but you know, you have it too. All the people I love have it. It's like this, the thing that is buzzing inside you that you do is completely divorced from what you get back from it. And I think the thing that gives me a lot of courage and faith when I think about people that I think are great is there's no bit.

Anyone I know, I won't say names because it's not meant to be negative, but anyone I know who's got some bit going on around their work, it's like, eh. At the end of the day, only authenticity cuts through, and even the most cynical seeming people, right? Like I have no doubt that if you sat with Lou Reed, that was Lou Reed.

Right. Can you unpack what you mean by bit? When I meet people who I think are doing a thing and then they're think are doing a thing and then they're sort of doing another thing or it's like they're playing with the audience in a way, I think it's very fleeting to mess with your audience. You know, I think the- Like in other words,

like a manipulation versus a true connection. Yes, and all my favorite artists- And you don't want to name names. Of course not, but all my favorite artists, like you do think about comedy, like Richard Pryor, for example, is probably my favorite. Like it's the truest connection.

Even if the manipulation was some weird way of crossing lines to get to the point where he could say something so subversive that you were with him, even if he was playing with it, at the heart of it was like this, what I get from a man who just like needed to say some truths that in front of a lot of people, what I get from a man who just needed to say some truths that in front of a lot of people,

I don't know if you agree. My favorite, probably my number one of all time. And so I guess what I'm saying is when I've come across people that seem to be projecting something that isn't just, it's something that they think they wanna project or play with that isn't necessarily just deeply coming from them,

it always kind of falls apart. And then these characters who just are, and then eventually people find out about it. Is that how you choose who you work with? Because I can imagine your just phone is ringing off the hook. I'm not being like overly generous, but like everyone on the planet wants to work with you.

You call. Yeah, I do call. You call. And you don't reply sometimes? That is a bad narrative, reply. But honestly, how do you decide? Because I think even, again, I don't want to name names because I don't want to have it be name dropy

so we're being clickbaity, but like everyone. The Doody Brothers. Well, everyone you work with. Bob and Turner Overdrive. Well, everyone you work with, like this week, you're with, at the VMAs with Sabrina Carpenter, and that's someone who I'm like, oh, she's a great musician,

but I would be surprised when you were working with her. Just like, I don't know. With someone like that, are you like? What do you mean surprised? I can tell you the story with her. I've been listening to her for a long time, I always thought she was brilliant. She's like one of these artists who's like,

a lot of the story of this past year, a lot of people who really come into the light have been working for a long time. I think we're moving back into a mode of like real people responding to like a level of expertise of someone who's been like grinding away at their craft. Interesting. She's like been working forever and getting,

every time she put an album out here and it's just crystallizing this like vibe and the sound that's so specific. And then we met, actually she was at a Bleacher show and I was like, oh, she's here. And then like two weeks later, we kind of like randomly met at this thing. And we had like an official meeting and we got together and we were able to move very quickly making things.

But yeah, I can recognize it for me personally in an instant, just, oh, that's someone who's absolutely brilliant, brilliant writer, brilliant singer, and is just sort of, you know, like grinding towards something, not giving a shit what is going on. And it's like the only quality I really care about, right? Is if someone's like, I got a thing I'm doing,

I need to do it, I want to make it like the most amazing version of itself, and I just do not give a shit what's going on. Well, it's exactly what we were just talking about, which is like manipulating an audience versus connecting with an audience. Yeah, totally. It seems like that's, I mean,

if we're really trying to zero in on what it is, it seems like that's what you're talking about. Well, I don't. But correct me if I'm wrong. No, it is. Like, steer me towards closer to what you're saying. Well, I don't. But correct me if I'm wrong. No, it is. Like steer me towards closer to what you're saying. Well, I think the act of performance with comedy or music, right?

Like cynicism can't exist, even if you use it as a tool, that's just a tool, but like it can't exist because it just takes so much to be there. Yeah. It's the opposite of the internet, right? Like that's why I love touring so much. It's like no one comes to the show cynically. No one's like, I'm gonna like, you know,

buy this ticket, which, you know, because of the powers that be, will be fucking nightmare to buy and like test the boundaries of my soul to just buy this ticket. And then I'm gonna, you know, leave my house, which is honestly one of the hardest things to do. And, you know, go into this place and just do this thing,

which takes so much effort. No one does that cynically, right? It's the problem with the internet. There's no barrier of entry. So we just, we get shit because it asks for shit. Yeah. Live events ask for so much of you. Oh, I know.

They ask for so much of your time, your funds. They ask so much of you. So when we all get there, when I get to the show and God damn it, as a performer, it's like, I'm not rolling in in a limo. You know what I mean? Like it demands so much of us. You know what touring is?

No, I know. On all levels, it demands so much of you. And there's a crew and there's all these people that have been worked tirelessly to put on that show. Oh yeah. Right, so when we get there, I am so stripped of cynicism. Yeah.

The audience is so stripped of cynicism. I just did Japan, Germany, France, and the UK in like two and a half weeks at home. To make those shows happen, my crew, myself, my voice, all of it, like there's just no fucking part of me that gets to that venue and is like, fuck this. Because I would go home. It's the easy choice.

It would be so easy when you're in the middle of a tour, when you're writing and you're against the wall, it is so easy to jerk off, go home, watch Netflix, order food. More than ever, the world is begging you to just simplify. So I love it because that barrier of entry is the crux of humanity, which we lose more and more of in modernity, right?

In older days, everything had a larger barrier of entry. You wanna go somewhere, it's pain in the ass. You wanna eat, you gotta go get the food. You wanna see a friend, you gotta go see that friend's face in the ass. You want to eat, you got to go get the food. You want to see a friend, you got to go see that friend's face or else you're never going to see their face. Big barriers. The buy-in is huge.

The buy-in is huge. And so everything I do, or I spend my day doing, starts with that buy-in. Oh yeah, by the way, I'm coming to Madison Square Garden to see you at bleachers at Madison Square Garden. You better. I'm going to introduce you if you want me at bleachers at Madison Square Garden. You better. I'm gonna introduce you if you want me to. What are you gonna say?

I don't know. Well, you were like set aside the date like six months ago. I want you to be there because you're one of the, there's not a lot of people in my life that cared when no one came to the shows. No, seriously. Yeah. I can count them on, you know.

Me, Rachel, Rick, Shira. That's it. And then the band members. You always thought it was something to write home about. And so I- I've always thought you were great. I still think you're great. I think the new album's amazing.

I think Stranger Desire- Desired. Desired is, I think it might be my favorite. Interesting. Because it's weird, I love the, it was the original Bleacher's album. This is my debut. Right, and you decided to go back.

My question is- I see it as a companion piece. Can we talk about it as you took your songs, you revisited them, non-musically, as a lay person, I would say you stripped them down. Arguably. Okay. But then.

It's a reductive concept. But then built them up. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's like you ripped out, I would say like you, correct me on this, you ripped out like the synth, you ripped out like maybe the bass. Correct me on this. and that means so much to me. And everyone's always celebrating anniversaries nowadays.

And I was just like, it doesn't mean anything. Who gives a shit? And then I was like, it's such a big deal. Oh my God, decade. You know, and I just kept fascinating. I was like, do I release some demos? It's kind of basic. I was just trying to think of what to do.

And before I knew it, I just went to the studio. And sometimes I go to the studio. I know you're like this one, you just write and you just sort of like, it's not free associating, but you just do what you do. You know, I you just sort of like, it's not free associating, but you just do what you do. You know, I'm just sort of like. You do what comes out. Yeah, I'm like, I'm thinking about it.

I'm like, all right, I'll just have a guitar and start picking around some of the songs. And I was like, oh, that's kind of nice. And I was like, put some horns on it, the makeup of the band now. And yeah, I took it apart and put it, and before I knew it, I thought, and then what's nice about letting yourself just be

and make what you make is then it comes to you. I was like, oh, that first album, Strange Desire, so bold, my debut, I was so anxious. I needed all this production. It was this Strange Desire to make that work when I was technically in another successful band. It's kind of the whole thing. And then I get to look back knowing what I know now

and to say, oh, a debut is really about looking for your people. It wasn't just a strange desire. It was a stranger desired. I was looking for strangers to tell my story to. And that all just came from just being able to just mess around. But yeah, it's nice to make companion work

or recontextualize things knowing, because know, because I'm in the future too. I'm in the future also. It's also? Yes. I'm in the future also, so what are my first jokes? I do a lot of, I won't say dog days callbacks. Dog years? Dog years. Was dog years good?

What are the highlights from dog years? Snapple on dog years? Yeah. Snapple's on dog ears? Yeah. Snapples on dog ears? Yeah. I'll perform Snapple for anyone who doesn't know it. Okay, got it. So I was a heroin dealer outside my building

and they're always like, if you like heroin. This is terrible. This is terrible. I forget it. I remember the bed. Well, there's a- If I were a rapist, I would have a bed like that. What I should have said was nothing.

What I did say was you'd be surprised. Is that Dog Days? That's from Dog Years, yeah. Dog Years. Yeah, yeah. What's another Dog Years classic? I had a joke back then where I go, I was on the subway and there was a guy crying over a book and I leaned over, I go, you don't know how to read either, huh?

That's pretty funny. What's the next album? I thought these, Two Drink Mike. What's the highlight of Two Drink Mike? What are the hits? Gary just hits me dead. It's like, I'm looking for a woman who loves me for my money but doesn't understand math.

I mean, it's like, full of joke jokes. After Two Drink Mike is when you start getting into. Don't deflect. Deflect what? You're deflecting in my career. Oh. People know. Do they? Do they?

Or is this audience sort of like the Netflix ears? Because some of us were here before the Netflix ears. Some of us were here before the Netflix series. Some of us were here before the Drama Desk Awards. And Broadway. This is hell. Some of us were here before, you know, Ira Glass. I was here before Ira Glass. One of the most emotional moments in my life was with you. I want to say like last May, we were at MetLife seeing Taylor Swift and you and I were together

with my daughter. Yeah. And my wife Jenny, our daughter Una. And we're like, we're with Jack, you know, we're a friend Jack and Una of course loves you, but then you went up on stage in front of like 80,000 people in the same getaway car. Was that tough, Faruna?

This is what I wanted to unpack. Honest question. I don't think it was tough. I think it was, it made me very contemplative because then you came back and then we sat and watched the rest of the show and danced and had a great time and you were just like everybody else who enjoyed Taylor's concert,

except that you just performed in front of 80,000 people. And I'm like, okay, that's weird for me with my daughter. How is it for you, if you ever have children, do you think about that? You know, I think about it all the time because I grew up feeling really special that I made music. I felt, you know, not a lot of people I knew made music, a small group of people, and I loved what I did, and I felt really you know, I, not a lot of people I knew made music,

it's a small group of people and I loved what I did and I felt really special about it. I also felt really misunderstood and hurt all the time, but I also felt like I had this like really interesting secret and I was really driven by that like deep feeling misunderstood by my surrounding world. So I like really wouldn't wish that kind of sandpaper on someone, but I also get really worried

about how this is slightly off topic. But just like you have a child, right? Maybe this is a crazy question. Do you ever worry that like everything's gotten too nice? Oh yeah, sure, sure. worry that like everything's gotten too nice. Like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, I got hit by a teacher, which is not good. I don't want to, I don't want to, I don't want anyone to get hit by a teacher.

And maybe this is just my experience, but, you know, sometimes Joe and Margaret, you talk about this stuff. It's like all that, like rough misunderstanding feeling. So, you know, fueled this stuff, it's like all that rough misunderstanding feeling so, fueled so much of what I do. I have a friend who I was telling this to and they were like, yeah, life's hard. Life's hard.

Everyone's going to be okay. No, no, well that's the thing, life's hard. But sorry, that was a bit irrelevant. To get back to your point, there's such a difference, which is what I think speaks to the problem with some people who grow up in LA and things like that. There's such a difference between money and power

in an industry. So for example, I grew up, I was raised in New Milford, New Jersey, which is a very working class town. And then I was like maybe like eight or nine, I don't remember, we moved to a much nicer town. It was a totally different vibe. And that's where I was first encountered, I'm sure you had this growing up,

the makeup of different towns in Massachusetts, that's where I was like, oh, that family has a lot of money. I understood the concept of money, which at that time was, certain kids in school would have certain shoes or whatever. And then you start to understand class in a way, right? Especially in a state like New Jersey, where every town is like, you go one town,

you're in Alpine, which is one of the richest towns in the country, and then you're in two towns over, and it's incredibly working class, next town really serious poverty. And I think Massachusetts is similar, where you just, you see it growing up. So everywhere in the world, every city in the world, America,

every state in America, there's different parts of the town and you experience wealth and the people who have it and don't have it in different ways. But I didn't know anyone who knew anyone. Yeah. Whereas it must be so weird.

And I don't know what this will be like, but to grow up in a place where it's like, you know people who know people who know people who know people. And like, you know, like I remember when I got into music, you know, there was nothing to do. I was just got on the fucking road. No one knew what to do or how to do it.

And like from like the New Jersey scene, there was was a kid who played my demo to Richard and Stephanie who had drive-through records at the time. And I literally started my career, but signed one of the record deals, one of those record deals where it was like there was nothing and I was kind of locked in and just toured for years.

And that great divide between me, my band, and anyone who could help us get anywhere was such a blessing in hindsight because I was just forced to go grind. So I don't, to answer your question, I don't, it's bizarre because I, my future kids, and they should do whatever they wanna do, but I wouldn't be able to give them, I guess,

that kind of anonymous existence, and you must think about that and how bizarre. It's so strange. But you know what? This is not about me, let me flip it on you. Are you ever somewhere that you're comfortable in, because you understand the context, and there are people you like and a situation you like,

but like Una seeing me playing in front of 80,000 people and then coming back in the tent, but then you have and a situation you like. But, you know, like Una seeing me playing in front of 80,000 people and then coming back in tent, but then you have a moment where you're like, is this bad for a child's psyche? I think about it all the time. What do you do? Do you try to explain it to them? I just always try to contextualize it.

How do like, what does that look like? Like I was in the Vatican. We were in the Vatican and had all these cool tours and things like that. And I had to be like, well this is like the religion that I was raised in and we were never, I never came somewhere like this. I was an altar boy and the answer is no. Sorry, I'm too drunk, Mike.

But yeah, and I just try to contextualize it and hopefully some of that make sense? It is so complex though. That's why I was asking you, because I don't know the answer. I don't have kids, but I think about it all the time because I just felt, I don't know, I loved in hindsight the feeling

of wanting to break out of my space, but I guess my kids will have that in their own way. I don't know. When your dad, Rick, played guitar with you on Siren Live, will have that in their own way. I don't. I love your dad. Oh, my dad, you know, actually, you want a completely honest answer? Yeah.

Well, I love community and family, as you know. I mean, my family's just deeply around. Yes. And we like it that way. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And my existence is... They come to like all your shows and they have since Steel Train,

since I first saw you like 20 years ago. Yeah, they're not, we just love to be together. Yeah. Even when we hate to be together, we're just together. That's that. Yeah. I think Jews and Italian, there's a similar thing, right? Maybe, I don't know. But we're like Olive Garden Italian.

You're gonna do all my jokes. These are all my jokes. All my jokes from Jew Jerk Mike. But my dad, the real meat and potato is actually true and sweet answer is my dad was brilliant, is brilliant guitar player, played ragtime guitar, studied under the great Reverend Gary Davis Jr. in New Jersey.

Oh, I didn't know that. Yeah, and then when he graduated from college, it was, he had to cut his hair and go work at the shoe factory with his dad. They had a shoe factory called Phoenix Footwear. That was that. So his parents not letting him be an artist was my ticket to be an artist.

Yeah. Long before my sister died and my life got really complicated and then my parents were sort of like, do what the fuck you want because the household was so a wreck. Long before that, my dad would always say, do what you want, do what you want. You can live at home.

My parents, my mom and my dad, you can live at home, we'll support you. I was never, I lived home until I was 27, my parents never made me pay rent. I think the neighbors probably thought I was a loser, didn't care, and so to have him on stage with us now is a full circle of that moment. Do you want me to play with you

next time you are a musical guest on us now? No. Why not? Do you want the real answer? Sure. I don't know if you would gel with the band. I feel like when you play guitar, it's sort of like you're good, but you're also making fun of people who play guitar. I'm the guitar guy at the party.

I'm going to sleep with your girlfriend. Do you still do that? No, I've been doing it. It's a bit from 20 years ago. 20 years ago? Yes. The media man on campus. The media man on campus 20 years ago. Come on ago? Yes. The media man on campus? Media man on campus 20 years ago. Come on, keep up with the times.

You want to move on from this? Yeah, I was going to say, when you write, I didn't know I was lonely until I saw your face or take the sadness out of Saturday night or New Jersey's finest New Yorker, what do you feel? When I get a good lyric, I feel like, like I own the world for one second. Yeah? Yeah.

When I get something that, and you know, it's rare because you write a lot and sometimes you write and, when you get one, you just get one off, you're like, that's what I wanted to say, it's the perfect way to say it. I know no one said it like that. You know, it's like finding your like tiny window, right?

Yeah. It's like, everything's like a mess. You just find this like tiny way out. And it's just, yeah, you, right? It's like everything's a mess, you just find this tiny way out and it's just, yeah, you feel like a god for one second. But yeah, it's the best, because it's like it cracks open another level, songwriting to me. I think it's similar for the way you write, but when you get a thing, you don't just get that thing,

you get access to a new level. So when you get that line, when I got, I didn't know I was only until I saw your face, I was like, oh, that's, now I can shout, I wanna get better because it makes sense. Now it's not just some mantra, like now it's about, now there's context to being somewhere and then reflecting back

and telling one's life story because you can finally deal with talking about it because you saw the thing and, you know, or like take the Saturday night. It's like, it's so simple. Take the Saturday night. But until I had that concept, that line in Chinatown and the album title,

I was like, what is this album? What am I trying to do here? You know, and that one line just glued it all together So I was like, what is this album? What am I trying to do here? And that one line just glued it all together of like, can't it not all be fear-based? Can't you say more about that? Like the whole album, How Dare You Want More, like I was really banging on the door of the next phase of my life and I couldn't get it right.

I couldn't get it right. I wasn't in the right situations. And I just wanted to have some joy, have some fucking joy without self-deprecation, without it all being like, brum, piece of shit. You know, like real fucking joy. And when I got, take this out and say this, that, I was just like, it just spoke to me

and it unlocked a whole new level. But yeah, New Jersey's Finest New Yorker, it's like that unlocks this verse where I want to take the piss out of myself, which unlocks the sound of the song, because if I'm going to make fun of myself, then okay, then the band can be on fire, because I can distract in these different ways.

Yeah, you don't just get the line, you get like a video game, like ding. Yeah, you get the world. Yeah, it's a lot, not to reduce it, but it's a lot like doing a puzzle. You get that hard piece, then you're like, I found the yellow flower, I got the yellow flower. And like, and you're like, brrr.

And it's like euphoric, it's like drugs when you get it. What's the saddest you get in the process? I can get really depressed if I'm not hitting those. If I'm just like, you know, just if I'm there, I'm out on the field and I'm playing and I'm just not connecting. And I have to be, I have to be at this point in my life, I have to be out there on the field, right?

Like I gotta- You gotta be in the studio. Yeah. Yeah. I gotta be chipping away at it, but you know, sometimes, I mean, it's why I'm always blown away when anyone has ego about this stuff, because it's like, you can't do it. You can't just do it.

You could try to do it, but it's, you're catching these things, you don't know when anyone has ego about this stuff because it's like, you can't do it. You can't just do it. You could try to do it, but it's, you're catching these things, you don't know when they're gonna come. But what do you mean you can't just do it? Like it's not easy. Like you can't just sit down and write. You can, but what you're really after comes or it doesn't. Like if you just went to a cabin and wrote for a week,

there's no guarantee you'd come out with anything that's worth anything. Right. You might. But isn't the idea that you're going there to be a receptor? That's what I'm saying. So that can be really frustrating. The longer, if I go a long period of time

without getting one that like, I almost know the thing about like those lines or like a good part in a song or melody is like, it's like refilling the tank a little bit. Like if I'm on empty too long, I can get just sad. You know what, best put, it's like, it's the way that I feel myself. And so when I'm doing it well, I feel myself.

It's like I'm doing the thing I meant to do. And then when I'm not accessing it a lot, I can, yes, it's depressing. Don't you get that way? If you're not like, because I, yes, it's depressing. Don't you get that way? Yeah. If you're not like, cause I'm always doing it, but if I'm not hitting that thing, then I just feel a little useless.

But then it ends, then I get something and then it picks me back up. Yeah, I don't know that I never, I ever not feel that way. Yeah. Like I feel like the moments of being buzzy about something are so brief. They're very brief.

No, they're very brief. I mean, if I'm being completely honest. No, same. I think weirdly a lot of the artistic process is a feeling of malaise with moments of, oh my God. That's why I'm so shocked when people think I'm prol shocked when people think I'm like prolific or something,

cause I'm like. You're so prolific. But it's not my- You fucking like produce like 10 albums a year. You're like producer of the year, like five times in a row. That's not my experience. My experience, to your point,

my experience is like, I can pull myself out of it and realize that something happens if I stay at it, but I feel often like, yeah, like these fleeting moments of like, whoa, there it is. And then a lot of my day is protecting that thing. Yeah. Finishing it. You know, finishing it as well.

But you have to be able to acknowledge, and I'm not doing this, I'm not saying this to be nice. You have to acknowledge that side by side, your work output is bigger than other musicians work output. No, that's not true. This is where I push back. I know plenty of writers and producers and people in bands. I don't actually do much more.

There's a lot of people who do way more than me. What time do you go to bed? My way of doing it, it deviates depending on if situations, but I like to be in the studio around 10 and finish at like five, walk somewhere, meet Margaret for dinner, go home and really shut it down. And I always try to write in the morning. That's what I wrote that song,

Good Morning about that kind of, but I always find that there is something circular about like you go to bed, you wake up, you've seen no things, you've heard no things. You've seen no things, you've heard no things. And there is a freshness to that perspective that is new. It's the same, I love New Year's, I love New Year's Eve, New Year's Day,

I like these things, I like the end of the month, at the beginning of the month, on the first month, I feel different than on the 30th or 31st or whatever it is. I think these are just like emotional facts, regardless of who wanna deny them. And at nighttime, I am less good at thinking of accessing this thing.

I've eaten, food, food fucks me up. As soon as I eat, I'm literally like, I'm so light in the morning and ideas are coming out of my head. You know what I mean? Well, I always describe it as right in the morning before you're afraid of the world. Yes, right in the morning when you're still in the,

and there's also, I've started noticing this thing, I think we all have it, I think we focus on the anxiety and depression we wake up with. I know a lot of people talk about they wake up and then all of a sudden it dawns on them that they're back in their life. We all know that feeling.

But there is something about I've lived another day that is powerful too. I agree. And it makes me feel some semblance of new again and I've done my best writing first thing in the morning. I've heard, I heard advice recently from someone who goes, when you wake up in the morning, say out loud, this is going to be a great day.

Interesting. I think it's pretty good. Margaret gave me a different version of that. She said, every time you get in the car, say this is the most dangerous thing I'm going to do today. That's a good one too. And I do. And I do. And I do. And I do.

And I do. And I do. And I do. And I do. And I do. And I do. And I do. And I do.

And I do. And I do. And I do. And I do. And I do. And I do. And I do. And I do.

And I do. And I do. And I do. And I do. And I do. And I do. And I do. And I do. And I do. And I do. And I do. All right. By the way, that's my guitar.

It's a Martin, it's Kenneth Pattongill's Martin that I got from Gruens in Tennessee. Okay. Working it out, V2. Okay. Okay, so I actually really want to try to do new music lyrics because people, you do the theme song to the show

and the criticism of it sometime, not criticism, but it's like, it's pandemic based. It was like, working it out, cause yeah, working it out cause it's not done. Working it out cause there's no one. Da da da da da da da da. And so, well yeah, and so, but now there's no one. Da da da da da da da da. I don't even remember. Well yeah, but now there's people around, et cetera.

And so I thought I wrote, working it out, cause it's not done. Same tune or something different? Yeah, maybe the same tune, but maybe a little bit more major for it. This was so long ago. Working it out, cause it's not done. We're still working it out.

It turned out to be pretty fun. I think that's good. Okay. Something like that. We're working it out, cause it's not done. We're working it out one on one. And there's always a bit more jokes we can explore.

They're not all gonna score. They're not all gonna score yet, but we're gonna try one more. That seemed nice. I could do better. Maybe, you know, this is a true co-write. You've done the lyrics. Maybe I'll record it nice in my studio.

And maybe that version, which was so heavy with the reverb, maybe we make this a little bit sunnier to remind people how we've come out of the pandemic. We've come a long way. Working it out, cause it's not done. We're working it out one on one. Cause there's always a bit more jokes we can explore. No, they're not all gonna score.

They're not all gonna score. We'll try. That's great. My favorite part is they're not all gonna score. I can do better, so I think I got it now. Okay. We're working it out, cause it's not done. We're working it out, one on one.

Cause there's always a little more jokes we can explore. Yeah, they're not all gonna score They're not all gonna score Let's make more You wanna do that? Let's make more

Let's make more They're not all gonna score Let's make more. Let's make more. And I'm not gonna score. Let's make more. It's nice. I like that. The last thing we do is working out for a cause where we... We always done this? Yeah.

We donate to a nonprofit of your choice and then we link to them in the show notes. We can do Ally Coalition, which you and I have done over the years, many, many times together, and we are doing again in December, the annual benefit you do for the Ally Coalition. It's the best night of the year. We are going to donate to the Ally Coalition.

Are you the only person who's done every performance? I think I've done every one. Wait, you missed one year. No, but you made it. One year I sprinted from Broadway. And you were on there. It's crazy. Okay.

I love you, thank you for coming on. I love you. Thank you for being the theme song for the show. New one's coming soon. Working it out, cause it's not done. We're working it out, cause it's not done. We're working it out, cause there's no... That's gonna do it for another episode of Working It Out.

You can follow Jack Antonoff on Instagram, at Jack Antonoff. Bleachers will be at Madison Square Garden this Friday. Come on! Check out their latest album, the self-titled one, So Good and Stranger Desired. Also, So Good. I've been listening to both of those on a loop. I mean, they're just fantastic albums. You can watch the full video

of this episode on our YouTube channel, at Mike Birbiglia. Check that out and subscribe as we're going to be posting more and more videos. Check out birbigs.com to sign up for the mailing list to be the first to know about my upcoming shows. Our producers of Working It Out are myself along with Peter Salomon, Joseph Birbigli, and Mabel Lewis. Sound mix by Ben Cruz, supervising engineer Kate Belinsky. Special thanks to Jack Hannonoff. You might know him from the Working It Out podcast. And bleachers for their music. Special thanks, as always, to my wife, the poet J. Hope Stein. Her book, Little Astronaut, is now an audio book wherever audio books are sold.

Special thanks as always to our daughter, Una, who built the original radio fort made of pillows. Thanks most of all to you who are listening. If you enjoy the show, please rate us and review us on Apple Podcasts. We're so close to the 4000 reviews on there. It's so exciting. We're four and a half years in almost 150 episodes. They're all free. There's no paywall. Come on! You could write in the user review. You can just say what your favorite episode is. We've had Stephen Colbert, Quinta Brunson, and Jimmy Kimmel, and Roy Wood Jr., and John Mulaney, and all these people who are fantastic. Thanks most of all to you who are listening. Tell your friends. Tell your enemies.

Let's say you're in a van with your friends and you take out your phone and you decide to show them a sketch from your favorite sketch comedy show and maybe that doesn't go over well. Here's how you recover. You go, hey, hey, I know you didn't like that one sketch, which means you probably don't have good taste in comedy, but here is something I think we can all agree on.

It's a podcast called Working It Out. Mike Birbiglia talks to other comedians and other creatives about process and jokes, and maybe that'll help a little bit. And then maybe they'll reconsider enjoying I Think You Should Leave, because it's really brilliant. Thanks everybody.

We're working it out. See you next time.