Mike Birbiglia's Working It Out - 151. Elizabeth Gilbert: Eat, Pray, Jokes

Episode Date: November 18, 2024

Author Elizabeth Gilbert wrote one of Mike’s favorite books about creativity, Big Magic. She also wrote a book that, to her surprise, become a cultural phenomenon: Eat, Pray, Love. Mike and Liz discuss the unexpected impact of Eat, Pray, Love, and what it was like for Liz to watch Julia Roberts portray her on the big screen. Liz gets candid about the ups and downs of a creative life, including the reasoning behind the cancellation of a novel she wrote that took place in Russia. Plus, some bawdy jokes and stories care of Liz’s uncles and grandfather, and the surprising reason why Liz was stopped at airport security. Please consider donating to The Loveland Foundation

I was coming into the country from Central America in New York at JFK and I was traveling alone and I gave them my passport and the woman's like, what was the nature of your travels? And I said, just traveling around. And she was a little suspicious, I think. And she's like, what's the nature of your work? And I said, a writer. And she said, what kind of things do you write?

And I just said, like, well, I'm most well known for this book that I wrote called Eat, Pray, Love. And she goes, you're Eat, this book that I wrote called Eat, Pray, Love. And she goes, you're Eat, Pray, Love? You're Eat, Pray, Love? And I was like, yeah. And she goes, hey. And she starts like calling down the line of every, like not the other immigration people.

And she's like, this is Eat, Pray, Love. And I'm like, why are they having this reaction? And then she's like, no, you don't know. Every day women are coming back into the country alone. And I say, what were you doing? And they say, I was having my own e-crayola multiple times a day, we hear this. I believe it.

And she's like, I can't believe you're the actual one. That's crazy. That is the voice of the great Elizabeth Gilbert. Elizabeth Gilbert has written many, many books and is most well known for her book, Eat, Pray, Love, which she mentions there at the beginning. It's a massive book. I mean, it sold over 10 million copies. It was made into a major motion picture with Julia Roberts playing her,

which we talk about today. And we talk about so many things today. It was such an interesting episode. We talk about the double-edged sword of being known for one huge thing that you didn't even know would become popular. She's written one of my favorite books on writing, which is called Big Magic,

which is about writing and creativity, I highly recommend it. Elizabeth has a sub stack called Letters from Love, and that's actually how we first got in touch. We talked about it a little bit on the show today, but she asked me to write. Each week she has a guest writer writing a letter from love to the author. I'm going to do it. I'm working on it now, but we talk about today.

It's one of the things we work out on the show today. And so check out that sub stack, it's fantastic. By the way, I wanna thank everyone who bought tickets to my show, The Good Life, at the Beacon Theater in New York. We have added a fourth, yes, a fourth show at the Beacon Theater on March 19th. And actually, the other night I performed there as part of the New York Comedy Festival.

There was a Judd Apatow and Friends show. When he does live shows, he always does them for nonprofits and it was benefiting people who were affected by the hurricane in North Carolina, which I felt great about. A quick note about the Asheville show on December 12th. Obviously the people and the businesses of Asheville have been through a lot from the hurricane. I actually was torn on doing the show in Asheville for a while, I was getting emails from a lot of you who live in North Carolina, people saying, do the show.

Some people saying, don't do the show. I've spoken with one of my closest friends lives in Asheville. I've spoken to the venue and we ultimately decided it would be best to go ahead and do the show. And if you cannot make it to the show, you can get a full refund. And if you're having trouble getting a full refund, contact the venue. I spoke to them on the phone and they're going to make sure that everyone who cannot make it gets a full refund. But we're going to have a great night in Asheville. I have donated to United Way of Asheville,

as well as the Manna Food Bank. So please donate there if you can. People in Asheville still need help. So in January, I will be in Iowa City at the Englert, which is awesome. I'll be in February in Pickering, Ontario, at the Pickering Casino Resort, which is awesome. I'll be in February in Pickering, Ontario at the Pickering Casino Resort, which looks awesome. Feb 4 and 5, I'll be in Baltimore

at the Baltimore Center Stage, which was recommended to me by Ira Glass, who's a Baltimore native, and he used to go to the shows there as a kid. February 21st and 22nd, I'll be in Northampton, Massachusetts at the Academy of Music. February 23rd, I'll be in Burlington, Vermont.

At the Flynn, we're going to be adding one last city, which I think is Los Angeles. Stay tuned on the mailing list. All of that on burbigs.com. I love this episode we do today with Elizabeth Gilbert. We talk about the sort of unexpected ripple effects of her book, Eat, Pray Love, we talk about her novel that was set in Russia that she decided to put a pin in for now and maybe forever. She tells some dirty jokes and stories, which you might not expect. She has phenomenal insights into writing that, you know, we recorded this a couple weeks ago.

I feel like I think about them every day. This is like one of my favorite episodes in a long, long time. Just truly someone who has thought so deeply about creativity and writing. This is especially interesting, I think, if you write autobiographical work. The ideas of making peace with creative failure. And it's just a lovely conversation. Enjoy my chat with the great Elizabeth Gilbert. chat with the great Elizabeth Gilbert. I'm here with Elizabeth Gilbert. Can I call you Liz? Other people do.

Please. I'm trying to take my cue from other interviews. Please call me Liz or even Lizzie. That's even better, but you can call me Liz. So Lizzie came in with gifts for me and Mabel and Gary are producers of stickers that say you are loved. And if I had told someone that this is what you did, they would say, there's no way.

You're just, that's what would be the movie version of Liz Gilbert showing up at your studio. Cookies. It's in cookies, you brought cookies for Halloween. It's extraordinarily on brand. It's a little, You brought cookies for Halloween. It's extraordinarily on brand. It's a little. Do you ever find yourself too on brand for yourself? No.

No. No. No. Does it ever feel like this is too much? No. I think it's lovely. It's wonderful. Thank you.

I'm glad you like it. I guess I'm pretty on brand. I'm trying to think. I'm more, I like it when I'm off brand. Like people don't think that I tell filthy jokes. Oh. You know, like, I don't know, like, that's really more of what I came from.

Like I grew up with a bunch of alcoholic uncles. Oh gosh. And there are some of my favorite memories of my entire life is just being a kid at a table with a bunch of very drunk men who didn't give a shit that there was an eight year old girl sitting there. That's really interesting. And we're just like unleashing the most outrageous humor

and outrageous stories. And they were great, you know? Like it was so great. It was so, and I've always kind of loved being in that. So in a way, like we're kind of jumping right into it, but when I became the Eat Pray Love Lady, that to me felt a little off brand. Cause like, I was like, how did I become

like a spiritual leader? You know? Cause you come from, in what you viewed as sort of a crasser background. Yeah, and I was a bartender and I worked on a ranch and I wrote for men's magazines for ten years and you know, but, and then I was like, oh, I guess I'm like a woman's woman now. You know, like I'd always kind of been a man's woman.

And then I became like the ladies woman and then I was like, well, that's great because they're wonderful. And now I like the men woman. And then I was like, well, that's great because they're wonderful. And now I like the men and the women. So I don't know. It's more surprising to me that I'm the eat, pray, love lady than that I'm not, if that makes sense. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that makes sense. But I do love giving stickers to people

that tell them that they're loved. But it's, do you remember body joke from when you were a kid? Oh. Do you remember any of them? Oh my God, I remember all of them. Can you say one without it being? I'll give you an even better, I'll give you a body story.

Okay. From my grandfather, who was the funniest person I've ever met in my entire life and took up the whole room and every room he was in. I went to visit him when he was 96 and he was also like kind of buff, kind of like an athlete.

Oh. Like he was just this big, like power man. Into his 90s? Yeah. And he came down, I was staying at their farmhouse and he came down the stairs one morning while I was staying there and he'd forgotten I was there and he was totally naked.

And I had two thoughts. One was, this is very embarrassing. And the other one was like, he's fucking ripped. Like he was 96, but he had like chiseled, like I was like dude's been like doing farm work. He was so strong. He didn't have his glasses on, he didn't have his hearing aids in,

and I was sitting on the couch reading and he bent over like right in front of me to like start working on the fire, and I'm like grandpa, hey grandpa, you know I'm hey, just trying to get his attention like, I don't want to embarrass you or freak you out, but like, I'm here, I think he forgot I was staying there. And he finally heard me and he turned around really,

really slowly and he looked at me and he goes, lizard, if I'd known you were here, I would have put my teeth in. That's a great line. Hilarious, like they were funny, like, those childhood memories of just being in the storm of humor and total inappropriateness, like, were so great, I wouldn't have changed that for anything.

I know what you mean. It's funny, like, you're saying you're the Eat, Pray, Love person, but, I mean, you and I have that in common, which is we write the subject of a lot of our writing is our own lives, which is a safe thing to write about generally, because it's yours. And so you can spin it however you wish

and thematically take it where you want to take it. But it's, do you ever get sick of yourself writing about yourself? Yes, and I'm like, I'm not gonna do that anymore. Yeah, yeah, sure. After each time I do it, I'm like, that's it. No more, you know, but then life gets lifey and interesting and needs to be processed and things arise

that I wanna figure out and I don't know about you, but I feel like I figure out my life by writing about it and talking about it. Yeah. I mean, I'm going into these subjects because I want to understand what happened or why I'm like this. Or so, you know, I'll probably keep doing it.

There's a joke in my current show right now. It's like, oh, Jenny, my wife describes me as the narrator of our marriage who nobody asked for. I'll be scrubbing the dishes in the sink. I'll be like, I'm doing the dishes. You're like the CNN ticker. Yeah, yeah. That's a good tag for it, actually. Yeah, I'll be like, I'm going to grab ice cream

for your parents later. You're live tweeting the marriage. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And she'll be like, you don't have to say all that. You can just do it, and then it'll be done. And I do a lot of stuff too, and I don't talk about it. I just do it, and then it's done. I'm like, I lot of stuff too, and I don't talk about it, I just do it, and then it's done. I'm like, I'm gonna give you five points for that,

they're on the whiteboard. But yeah, that's definitely my Achilles heel, is I do that for my profession, then I also do it in my life. Yeah, but what do people want, who was it, I'm trying to think, I think it was the writer Megan Tom who said, you know said when people accused memoirists of being oversharing and she's like,

well, how do you want your memoirist? That's great. Undersharing, that's not a very effective. That's right. I always have a very dramatic, glamorous idea that one day I'm just gonna close the veil. Yeah. And I'm like, that's enough,

you people have gotten enough of me. And then I just don't because I'm gonna like close the veil. You know, and I'm like, that's enough. You people have gotten enough of me, you know? And then I just don't because I'm, I also like the engagement. Like I like, I like talking to people. I like talking about life. I would be a little bored behind the closed veil. Yeah. No, no, I feel the same way.

And also it's like you're, we're only alive for a short time. So what are you holding on to? Yeah. You know what I mean? It's like, what's the point? Right. Like you get, I mean, every, and also like, that's the thing about memoiring, when people go,

I can't believe you tell everybody everything. I go, everyone knows everything already. Right. You think you're keeping secrets from people? They know. Right. When I was going through the divorce that led to Ipra Love,

which was an incredibly dark time and a horrible time, and somebody very facetiously quoted that, like nothing bad ever happens to a writer thing. Right. Well, at least it's gonna be great material for something. And I remember the righteous, like I rose up on my hind legs, like as if I would ever,

ever exploit this great, tragic, dark, precious, depressed, anxious, suicidal moment of my life to write about for public, you know, cut to like three years later, his April love, the movie. You know, like, you know, and I'm like, I, you know, but at the time I think I don't plan to, when I'm in pain and I'm like, I, you know, but at the time I think I don't plan to when I'm in pain, I'm like, this feels very precious

and very dark and very private. And then gradually it's like, hey guys, you know what happened to me? Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, two years ago, like let's, I don't know. Let's open it up, let's unpack it. Do you get sensitive about, cause like you, similar to Lin-Manuel Miranda,

where he had this hit musical that was beloved and then it went wide onto, it was filmed, and then it went to an exponentially large audience and all of a sudden everyone has a take. Did you ever feel that way with your book where it got so big that you were like, you guys actually don't get what this is even? I felt like that when it was,

I watched the approval and disapproval of me projection, kind of the sine wave go. And I think because I'd been in media for so long and because I'd been a journalist and like I'd worked on pieces where people were analyzing like, oh, this person is falling from favor. This person is rising in favor. Like I think I was able to sort of look at it

from a slight remove, but I remember when it was sort of peak eat, pray, love and it was peak people hating eat, pray, love and it was peak people hating eat, pray, love. You know, which goes where it had become sort of a joke and an insult and it was fashionable to hate it. And I was thinking like, well, it's gotten so big that a whole bunch of people who it was never meant for have found it.

And now because there's a zeitgeist around it, they have to have an opinion about it, but it was never marketed to them, targeted to them or for them. So a bunch of people who it's not speaking to were like, I hate this thing. And I'm like, I bet you do. I never intended for you to read it.

That's right. It wasn't meant for you. It wasn't for you. It wasn't for you. But then I remember saying to my husband at the time, I think we're like five minutes from, there's gonna be like a hipster backlash, reappreciation where it's gonna suddenly become cool

to be like, no, actually, Eat, Pray, Love is a good book and Liz Gilbert is a good writer. Yeah. And that will be the cool position for somebody to take. And like, it's like five, four, three, and the first piece came out like that, which is like, you're all hating on this,

but in fact, you know. Yeah, and that's where I stand on it because I wasn't part of the first wave because like you're saying, it wasn't for me. But then when people started weighing in on it so hard, I was like, this person is a really, undeniably, a really good writer and really earnestly discussing her journey.

So if that's not for you, can you get out of the way? Like this is her deal. This is for not for you. Okay, go back to the things you like. Yeah, yeah, go to the things you like. I also wonder why people finish reading books that they hate if they're not paid for it. Yeah.

You know, like if I hated anything as much as some people hated Eat, Pray, Love, I would have stopped reading on page five. Totally. Because like you mentioned, life is very short. I'm also not a completist when it comes to any media. It's like, it's the job of the author or the artist or the creator to make me want to stay with something

and if they don't, that's not my problem, I'm leaving. 100%. You know, so I'm like, why did you finish it so hard? Why did you read it in such a frothy sweat? And that's a good way to look at it too. But what about, like, you have this great book called Big Magic and it's a book about creativity and it's about writing and it's all these anecdotes

about, actually my favorite anecdote is the, is the Werner Herzog, the great film director where your friend, a friend of yours, wrote a letter to Werner Herzog. Complaining. And said, hey, how come my movies aren't successful? The marketplace is so unfair, blah, blah, blah. And I'm paraphrasing, but Verzog basically wrote back,

get a camera or steal a camera, however you get a camera, shoot a movie and essentially make another one, make another, make another one. Yeah, and quit your complaining, nobody wants to hear it. Oh yeah, that's a good, I like that too. Like very directly said, nobody wants to hear it. It's not, my favorite line in that letter. And Herzog wrote back to him, which I think is amazing.

That's amazing to me. And said, it's not the world's fault that you want to be an artist. And it's not the world's responsibility to make you be a successful artist. That's your problem. You know, like get to work. Why are you writing me a letter and not making a film?

Also, who would think to write to Werner Herzog for sympathy? I thought it was interesting. I mean, I thought it was an interesting thing, but the thought like, you know who could really, who would really come for me? Yeah, yeah, who would really come for me? Is that guy. Yeah, yeah, this really stern man

with a famously serious voice. Uncle Werner, you're having a hard day. Like, I just thought it was funny that somebody went there. But you're, so you have all these great inspirational stories and it's like about writing and opening yourself up to inspiration, all this kind of stuff. What about the person who writes every day, does the work, shows up, you know,

30 years in, 40 years in goes, people are just not finding this work, shows up, you know, 30 years in, 40 years in, goes, people are just not finding this work, they're not connecting to this work. It's one of those things where you go like, well, you wrote a book about creativity, but you're from the perspective of someone who's wildly successful at creativity. Does it work for everybody?

I don't think anything works for everybody. True. Right? Like,'t think anything works for everybody. True. Right, like I think that's the curiosity of the human spiritual and creative path. And I think the spiritual and creative path are the same thing, which is like, how am I gonna get through this? And you have to borrow from so many different ideas

and find your way and try things on. Yeah. You know, like nowhere would I say that big magic is a prescription for anybody. And I also would, in speaking to somebody who's been working for 30 years and hasn't had any success, I'd be pretty careful about being like humble about being like, just stick with it, it's great.

Like if I'd had 30 years of writing with no success, I'm not sure that I would have wanted to stick with it. You know, like, so I think I would just wanna be respectful of the situation that they're in. And there has to be another reason to make art besides, like I've written books no one's read, because I needed to write them. And like there's multiple strands of reasons

that we create work and not all of it is about the market. A lot of it is, but not all of it is. And I've also, like I wrote a book that was canceled like two years ago. I saw that, it's unbelievable. So I've had experience with, like before it was published, like that I worked on for three years. It was a Russian novel.

Yeah. And there was something, I mean, that's a whole big story that I don't need to get into, other than to say the same thing that got me through like seven years of rejection letters is the same thing that got me through the massive success of He Pray Love, is the same thing that got me through a book being canceled, is the same thing that gets me to my desk

every morning. There's a through line that goes through all of that, which is I really love doing this. Right. And I really love this line in the Bhagavad Gita, 5,000 year old wisdom that says you're entitled to the labor, but you are not entitled to the fruit of the labor.

And I feel like that's the wisest possible way to work. And that might not be very comforting to somebody who's like, I'd like some fruit for my labor, you know? But is the labor, I don't know how you feel about this, but I've always felt to a certain extent, the making of the thing is the best part. And when my editor, like when we decided to pull the book, and she was very lovingly saying to me like,

this is so tragic, like you worked for three years on this book, it's a beautiful book. And I was, but I hadn't seen it. I was like, Sarah, if you knew how much I love doing this. Like if not one minute of that was wasted time, like the best memories I had of the previous three years were sitting alone in a room writing that book. And I know from having written so many books,

nothing that comes after is ever better than the moment when it's, when you get it. Like when you're like, oh my God, it's happening. Like the whole thing is coming together. I see how this works now. Like no praise, no glory is ever better than that. It's like nothing, that's the thing. That's the kind of, because then you're in that,

that collaboration is happening and that the current is flowing through you and you're meeting it with the heat and you're right on the edge of this is, I'm almost not gifted enough to do this, but somehow it's working and like, the thing's running on itself and I'm not even driving it anymore.

Like there's, I mean, I hope that I would keep doing that whether anybody ever saw it or not. I sure did for a long time. But if people aren't getting enjoyment out of it, don't do it. There's no reason. Yeah, of course. There's no reason to do it if it's not a pleasure.

The Russian novel, to me, being completely outside of it, I read that headline of like, you canceled this Russian novel, or they canceled, someone canceled it. I canceled it. You canceled this Russian novel because of people objected to it based on the Ukrainian war.

But isn't it based in Russia in the 30s or 40s? It's from another era? Yeah, but it doesn't really have anything to do with, it's just not the right moment for it. And when I read what people were saying, what Ukrainians were saying, it made sense to me. Even though they hadn't read it.

Doesn't matter. Doesn't matter. Like they, and I have, I mean, I think also I have, I've been published in Ukraine for a long time and I, and Ukrainians are passionate, devoted readers famously. And like the publishing house that I work with in Ukraine is one of the oldest publishing houses in Europe.

Like they take reading really seriously and they take literature really seriously. And I think I, and like Yip Prelev was a best seller in houses in Europe. Like they take reading really seriously and they take literature really seriously. And I think I, and like Yip Pralov was a bestseller in Ukraine, you know? And I think I heard from every single one of my readers in Ukraine. And the tone changed based on how reactive people

felt about it. But the message was consistently like, hey, could you maybe not right this minute, publish a book that pulls the attention of the world toward Russia when we're doing everything we can to keep the attention of the world on the struggle that we're having trying to not be killed. I get that.

Could you maybe not? Is this really the time for this? And my thought was, I think you're absolutely right. My inclination of like tens of thousands of people who are suffering and being oppressed and murdered rise up in one voice collectively to take the time from when they're getting killed to say to me specifically, could you not do this thing?

It would be hurtful for us. My inclination is not to be like, no, it wouldn't. It's not even about you. It's like, okay, I got it, heard. That helps me understand it a little bit more because I feel like I would have a similar reaction. But when I read it, it felt like an internet mob and not real people reaching out and saying,

this is upsetting. There was an internet mob that happened around it because there is eyes, but at its core was a very articulate, like a very articulate plea that felt very reasonable to me. And also like life is long. Yeah, life is long.

Like life is long, the book is done, it's in the vault. It's like, cool, long. Yeah, life is long. Like, life is long. The book is done. It's in the vault. It's like, cool, we'll just hang on to that. There will be a time for it. Yeah. Or there won't. I don't have the right to the fruits of the labor. I only have the right to the labor.

That's right. And I don't want to do anything that feels like it's out of my own integrity just to prove a point that I can. point that I can. I love this thing in Big Magic where you go like being a writer. Again, I'm paraphrasing probably terribly, but it it's not a job. It's a thing that you are and you choose to do, essentially. And if you are paid for it or compensated for it, that's great, good for you.

But it's never to be counted on. No, in fact, I get hives when people tell me that they're quitting their job to do something in the arts. Cause I always say like, I didn't quit my day jobs to be like only an artist till my fourth book, till after my fourth book. And my fourth book was Eat, Pray, Love. And until then I had,

I always had so many multiple strands of income because the feeling I had was like, I don't wanna put the pressure on my creativity that it has to support me because then my experience with that is it makes creativity shrink away in fear. I will be the sugar mommy for my own work. So I'll go wait tables and be a bartender

so that my creativity doesn't have to support me. Like that's the view that I had toward it. It's like my responsibility to support it. It's not its responsibility to support me. And so, I know people who've like quit their job and then move somewhere to write a novel and the entire time all they're thinking about is like, how am I gonna pay my mortgage?

Like, how are you gonna write a novel when all you're thinking about is that? Yeah. is like, how am I gonna pay my mortgage? Like, how are you gonna write a novel when all you're thinking about is that? You know? Like, just also, who can write eight hours a day? Like, on my best days, I write like two hours a day. On my best days. How come? Because it takes everything out of you?

Yeah, I don't have the, I can't do it longer than that. It's draining. I, when I'm in deep writing mode, like I write for two hours a day and I spend the rest of the day sort of like staring at the wall, drawing. Like, just like, what just happened?

I totally relate to that. You know, just like walking around it with a vacant stare. Well, I think that's true, particularly when it's working. Yeah. Because you're basically possessed by all these characters. It's using you, you characters. It's using you. It's using you.

And then you're thinking about it the rest of the day, dreaming about it at night. Yes. It's nice to live alone when you're working on a novel. That's interesting. Because I've lived with people and felt like I wasn't a very good partner to them when I was working on a novel

and I didn't really want to be. Right. I really wanted to just be with the thing. You have this great thing that you said, I thought was so wise, about being sort of a relationship celibate, which is, I don't know if it's still true, but for a period of years, you weren't in a relationship,

and part of the thing you were observing was, are the things that I was projecting, possibly onto my partner, things that I was projecting possibly onto my partner things that were just on me? And are you still not in a relationship and you're still not? Still not. And do you, what's your observation about the experience?

It's so good. And I say that with like the greatest love for the wonderful people that I've been with. But I've never been in a relationship that's better than not being in one. It's such a terrible thing to say. I feel like it's an illegal. This interview is over.

I feel like it's an illegal thing to say. But it's, but, and when I look at. Hot take. When I look at the relationships that I admire, it's so telling that the thing about the relationships that I admire the most is the relationships where the people give each other the most space. In other words, the thing that I think looks like,

like, oh, that looks like a good relationship is the one where people don't ask very much of each other. Right. And I'm like, well, maybe you just don't wanna be in a relationship. Right. And, and I, there's a poem by Jack Gilbert, who I quote a lot, right? And I'm like, well, maybe you just don't wanna be in a relationship. And there's a poem by Jack Gilbert, who I quote a lot, who's not related to me, but he's kind of like the sort of angel floating over big magic.

He's a poet who I love and admire a lot. And he has this poem he wrote, Late in Life. And he lived this very unconventional life, very much listening to his own calling and refusing fame, refusing family, refusing, like just going off and doing a lot of stuff by himself that took years just because he wanted to. And when he was really old and living in a shepherd's hut

on a rooftop in Greece, he wrote this poem where it's an argument that he's, it's a discussion he's having with God as he's cooking his meal. And the meal is a piece of fish he bought from a fisherman that morning that he walked up the hill and the tomatoes that he grew. And he's just sitting watching the light change.

And God is saying to him, like, why are you like this? Like, why can't you just be normal? Why, like, you could have had marriages, you could have had families, you could have children. Why do you live alone? You could have lived in one of the great cities in the world. Like why do you just keep coming and being by yourself like a weirdo essentially?

And the last two lines as he's like got his perfect fish cooked and the tomatoes and the sun is going down, the Lord says to him, why are you so stubborn? And Jack Gilbert says, I'm not stubborn, I'm just greedy. And he sits and eats his fish alone. And that poem makes so much sense to me. The older I get them in my 50s now, and I am so greedy for my solitude.

I'm so greedy for my freedom. I'm so greedy for being able to make a plan and say, I'm going away for three weeks and I don't have to run it by anybody. I'm so greedy for like, just getting up in the middle of the night and taking a bath. I don't know, like there's the expansion of living alone. I also lived with people for 35

uninterrupted years pretty much. So it's been almost six years now that I've been like this, greedy. Yeah, yeah, greedy. Greedy for this beautiful experience of, and I've written three books in that time. Like my creativity is blossoming and my friendships are richer.

And I don't know, I seem to like it. What was the thing in your romantic relationships where you realized when that was not in your life equation that part of that was you, and you had thought maybe it was the other person? Oh, so my thing, and I think this is probably common, is like, whoever's sitting next to me in the position of partner will be blamed or praised,

depending on how I'm feeling. So if I'm having a bad day, it's because they suck and are a terrible partner and I need to leave. And if I'm having a great day, it's because they're so supportive and amazing. And if things are going well in my life, it's because they're incredible. And if they're not, it's because they're the worst. And it's just, when I took the partner away and still had bad days and great days with nobody to pin it on, apart from like,

oh, these are just my own moods. And maybe I should take full responsibility and accountability for my own moods rather than projecting it on another. Life got better. That feels profound. Are you gonna, will that be in a piece of writing eventually, that idea?

Maybe. It's gotta be. I don't know. I mean, this is working it out. We have to talk about what could be worked into writing. I feel like that has to be. I think that sounds like a great idea for a book. I mean, it's really good.

You are doing a sub stack right now that I'm going to, this is how we started talking about this, you coming on this podcast, is you asked me if I would write a thing you're doing on a sub stack, which is letters from love. That a lot of, you've written some, you've had guest writers come on

and write a letter from love. Can you talk me through the concept because I'm struggling with it, though I'm going to do it because I'm, well, because I think it's a beautiful exercise. I think the comedian in me is having a really hard time engaging it. Self-love is a really challenging thing for comedians to do. It's pretty sincere.

Yeah, and I'm for sincerity, but when it tips into just full self-love, it becomes me holding up a you are loved sticker. And I want to do it, I want to do my version of it, but can you talk me through, where did the idea come from, and who's done it best, and where has it felt like, well, this could be a little stronger. Okay, so the backstory for this is that 20 years ago, when I was going through my first but not last divorce and I was going through the worst depression I've ever been,

like it was the worst shame, the worst fear, the worst like, wow, I've drifted so far away from, like so lost, so lost. And I had bounced out of that relationship into another one and that relationship had collapsed. And I was like heartbroken from both of them. Like it was just such a mess. I was in such a mess.

And shame was the predominant feeling that I was having. Like dark, poisonous shame. And waking up routinely at like four or five in the morning and just going after myself with brick bats and knives. And it would be like, it's almost like the shame would catch me like, all right, it's four in the morning. What's she gonna do?

She's pinned to the bed. Now we're gonna come after her. Like the demonic, awful, it was brutal. And one of those nights, I don't know what came to me as inspiration and gave me an assignment. And the assignment was get out of bed and get a notebook and write a letter to yourself that says,

and I was also terribly lonely and heartbroken. So write a letter to yourself that says everything you have always desperately, desperately wanted somebody to say to you. Like, what is it that if there was someone here who was incredibly comforting, what would they say? And I did it and it soothed me. And I find it to be a really interesting aspect

of the human mind that we're capable of self soothing. Like even if you, like even if you, it's been shown like even if you hold yourself like this and like tuck your head, your body receives it the same way it receives being held. Yeah, like hugging yourself. Like you sort of swaddle yourself, like your body, your body receives it the same way it receives being held. Yeah, like hugging yourself. Like you sort of swaddle yourself, like your body, your cortisol will drop.

Like your body's like, oh, someone's here. You know, like I'm not alone. So that voice did the same thing. And what that voice said was, it started with I'm right here, which is how those letters almost always start for people, not just for me. Like I'm right here, I'm with I'm right here, which is how those letters almost always start for people, not just for me. Like I'm right here, I'm with you.

So I was essentially calling upon the spirit of unconditional love to be present to me. And that's who the letter's from, the letter's from. Love itself. Unconditional love itself. Like capital L love. Which is maybe a higher power of sorts.

Yeah, I mean, I don't call it letters from God because I don't want to scare people. Right, but it could be. But it could be. I mean, I don't want to scare, and I say that sincerely because people have, I have great respect for people who don't believe in God. And I also have great, a sense of great care for people

who are really harmed by the religions that they grew up in and for whom that word is like deeply oppressive and tragic. But love, the idea is like, what would unconditional love say to you right now in this moment of your life, if it could speak to you? And so I started doing it daily. So for almost 20 years, I've done this every day. You do that every day?

Yeah, because I kind of can't. I mean, my God. I kind of can't, I don't do well without it. You know what I mean? You're telling me you did this today? Yeah, I did this. Come on. I do this every day.

I do this every day. Will you read it? No, I don't want to put you on the spot to read it, but maybe a line or two. Yeah, I'll read. It's gotten to be less because I'm stable now. So it's less like, like what I heard on that first night was like, we're not going anywhere.

It was a we. We've got you. And you, this was the thing that I heard. You don't need to get better for us to love you. Like if you never get better and this is what your life is and you're always this depressed, we are, we still love you. Like if you never get better and this is what your life is and you're always this depressed, we still love you. That gives me shivers. It gave me shivers.

It's beautiful. And if you, I mean, what literally they said was if you end up, cause I was also trying to figure out should I take antidepressants or should I not? They're like, if you take antidepressants, we love you. If you don't, we love you. Like we're in, we were here with you when you got here.

We'll be here with you when you leave. And it's so... They gave you the sticker. They gave me the sticker and they gave me the assignment. So like, actually I wrote mine today in the, because I was up early this morning helping a friend go somewhere to a doctor's appointment. So I wrote it in the Uber over here.

But I dear love, what would you have me know? And that's the question, what would you have me know? What would you have me know? And then you just, here what would you have me know? What would you have me know? And then you just, here's the thing and why it's gonna be hard for you. It's not because you don't necessarily believe or could receive or download unconditional love. It's because as a performer

and the people who have the hardest time doing this are writers and performers who want it to be good. And the people who have the purest and most beautiful ones, just ask the question. And then they just write the answer without trying to write the answer. So it's like, can you get out of the way and just what would love say to you today

in this moment if you could? So this one was, my love, pause here in this moving vehicle and sense the space around you, within you, above you. Look out the windows and see the space between the leaves on every tree, the space that people leave each other politely on the sidewalk. There is so much more space than clutter and matter.

Don't get that messed up or forget it. You've had what you call a busy day up before dawn to drive a friend to the hospital, then to the city and then to an Uber and now to this interview, then back home tonight. But never will a day be so busy that we cannot find you to speak to you and bring, to remind you and to remember you. No traffic jam so dense that we can't untangle it in a word,

reassuring you that you are in the right place at the right time with the right person, even if you're hurtling across a bridge with a stranger, your coffee splashing about. Reminding you that something else is always happening here and that something else is what you might call nothing, but what we call the infinite expansion of how much we love you. All of it filled with the rightness of the moment. How could you be anywhere but right where we can find you? How could you be anything but right?

You are loved and wanted. You are known. We see you. Enjoy the ride. We're not going anywhere. Love, love. So let's work on the second draft. No, no.

How do you write like that's you scribbling in the car? I can barely read it. It's like bouncing around. What is going on here? But I need this. Yeah. Because I'm a high anxiety person. Yeah.

And I'm scared all the time. Like I'm scared a lot. And when I get that message, I'm like, okay, it's okay. Well, in some ways, like what you were reading me is the optimistic, possibly subconscious of yourself speaking to your pessimistic subconscious of yourself or consciousness.

I'll take that. Maybe it is, I don't know, because it reminds me of this great Ginsburg quote that I think of all the time, which is observe what's vivid. I love that one. Oh, that's so beautiful. Yeah, but it reminds me of what you're saying. I noticed the space between the leaves

and the space between people. There's just a certain vividness of like, yeah, the optimistic side of Lizzie Gilbert is looking for the beauty and telling the pessimistic side, hey, you should notice this stuff. Yeah. It's happening right now. Yeah.

And you're in the right place at the right time with the right person. Like you're not doing it wrong. Yeah, yeah. You know, which I can never hear enough because I always think, am I doing this wrong? You know? I think I can do this. I think you can do it beautifully. And I always tell this story,

but this to me is that the real reason that I'm doing this project is that when the Dalai Lama came to the US for the first time in the seventies and nobody knew who he was, he had a meeting with some thinkers and artists and psychologists who were like, let's meet this obscure monk and see what's going on.

And at that first meeting, this was his first encounter with the West. And somebody asked him what the traditional Tibetan remedy was for self-hatred. And somebody asked him what the traditional Tibetan remedy was for self-hatred. And the Dalai Lama had to talk to a translator for 15 minutes and kept asking the question again and again, because he kept thinking he was misunderstanding

the question because he didn't understand the question. He kept saying like, wait, who do you hate? Who's the enemy that you're having trouble with? Who's the person that you're having a problem with? And they were like, I am the person that I'm having, wait, who do you hate? Who's the enemy that you're having trouble with? Who's the person that you're having a problem with? And they were like, I am the person that I'm having a problem with. I am the person that is abusive to me. Like I am the, and he was like,

and he's looking around the room and everyone's nodding and he's like, you all have this? And everyone's like, yeah, welcome to America. And when he realized, and when everyone was able to explain to him, this is something we all struggle with every single day here. Yeah.

He was like, well, first of all, this doesn't even make sense because you are the only person you are to be with on this whole journey. Why would you make an enemy out of your only friend? Right. Your being is going to carry you through, like that's crazy to turn on that person.

And then he said, I used to think I understood the mind, but I find this very troubling and very concerning. And essentially he's like, well, we'll start with this then when we come to the West. And so he started by teaching, trying to teach people how to be kind to themselves. And he would say, treat yourself the way your mother treated you.

And then he found out what people's mothers were like. And he was like, okay, grandmother. He's like reaching, like how many, has anybody ever been nice to anyone here? You know, like where do you have, like has anyone ever been nice to anyone here? Where know, like where do you have, like has anyone ever been nice to anyone here? Where were you taught kindness and self-compassion? And they feel-

Has anyone ever been nice to anyone here is insane. It's crazy, right? And the question that I always have is like, everyone I know and care about wants to practice universal human compassion, but they're awful to themselves. And universal human compassion that doesn't include compassion to yourself

is not by definition universal. Yeah. You know, so that was the reason that I started this project on Substack. So anyway, I reached out to you because I love your work and I love your vulnerability and your heart. Like your heart is so evident.

So when I DM'd you and I was like, hey, would you wanna do this thing? And you were like, I don't know, I don't know if that feels like me. And I'm like, it seems so much like you. Like I was so surprised by that answer because I was like, what about it doesn't seem like you? Because all I see is your heart and your work.

That's interesting, because I appreciate that so much. I think it's a struggle for me to get there. I think in the version that makes it out to Netflix, it's there because I think it's important for my work. I think it's what I think that you, in some way, owe it to the audience to give them all of you in a certain way. Like give to give, you know, and I think that's part of it. That's part of who you are and what your story is.

And so a lot of times it'll take someone in my life, whether it's my director, Ira Glass, or you know, on this podcast one time, it was Natasha Lyonne where I was running jokes and she was like, but what are you really afraid of? What are you thinking about? I remember that. Yeah, and she forced me on the spot

to tell some really painful stories about death that I think some of them made it into the Old Man in the Pool special. And so it is, I appreciated you messaging me because I was like, oh, okay, well, here's someone who sees this thing in me and I should engage with this. And certainly from someone who is so good

at what you're doing. So after we messaged, I listened to the audio book of Eat, Pray, Love. And by the way, couldn't recommend it more highly because you say the words, which I think is so important and is beautiful. And then last night, since I knew you were coming today, I watched the movie and then it's like midnight

and I'm lying next to my wife and she's falling asleep and I'm watching the movie, Eat, Pray, Love, and she sits up from her slumber and goes, I never thought I'd see this today. I never thought I'd see this today. I never thought I'd see this today. I never thought I'd see this today. I never thought I'd see this today.

I never thought I'd see this today. I never thought I'd see this today. I never thought I'd see this today. I never thought I'd see this today. I never thought I'd see this today. It's so good. It's so good. I love it.

It's an honest marriage. It's so good. That makes me happy. It must be, I was thinking. It's an honest marriage. Oh, it's so good. That makes me happy. It must be, I was thinking when I was watching it, that's got to be weird. So weird. Having Julia Roberts be you. I mean, so surreal. So surreal.

So surreal. Did you, and also she gets your mannerisms pretty well, I feel like. Did you feel like she got it pretty well? I don't have any, I have, I don't know because that whole,, I feel like. Did you feel like she got it pretty well? I don't have any, I don't know because that whole, like I'm the last person you should ask about whether that, I don't, like I even just start to stammer, like I still haven't processed the existence of that movie.

Fair, fair. Because it's, I mean, well, it's the greatest case that life is a simulation. It's so strange. I saw that my then husband and I watched it and that they put us in a movie theater alone and we watched it before it came out and the producer sat outside the door waiting

for probably very nervously for a response. And if not the first line, one of the first lines of the movie is Julia Roberts walking into the medicine man's house in Indonesia and she says, hi, I'm Liz Gilbert. And I instantly, I was like, what? Like, oh my God, no, you're Julia Roberts. It's so weird.

No one's going to think you're Liz Gilbert. No one's going to think you're Liz Gilbert. Everybody knows you're Julia Roberts. You fool. You don't realize. People know. Look at yourself. The word has gotten out. You're Julia Roberts. You fool! You don't realize!

People know! Look at yourself. The word has gotten out. You're Julia Roberts. Look at the word. Like you're Julia Roberts. What the hell? It's so wild.

It's so strange. So strange. Can I tell you a quick story? Oh yeah. Of a really sweet thing that happened recently. I was coming into the country from Central America and as I was in New York at JFK, and I was traveling alone, I gave them my passport,

and the woman's like, what was the nature of your travels? And I said, just traveling around, and she was a little suspicious, I think, and she's like, well, what were you doing for two months in Central America? And I was like, I was talking to people, walking around looking at things. You know?

And she said, what's the nature of your work? And I said, a writer. And she said, what kind of things do you write? And I used to kind of be coy, but now I just lead with it. So like just get over the speed bump. And I just said like, well, I'm most well known for this book that I wrote called Eat, Pray, Love. And she goes, you're Eat, Pray, Love?

You're Eat, Pray, Love? And I was like, yeah. And she goes, you're Eat, Pray, Love? You're Eat, Pray, Love? And I was like, yeah. And she goes, hey. And she starts like calling down the line of everybody, like not the other immigration people. And she's like, this is Eat, Pray, Love. This is the woman who wrote it. She's like, you did that movie.

This is the woman who wrote People. And they're all like, whoa. And all these like, you know, like customs guys were like, oh my God. And I'm like, why are they having this reaction? And then she's like, no, you don't know. Every day women are coming back into the country alone. And I say, what were you doing?

And they say, I was having my own e-cray lab multiple times a day, we hear this. I believe it. And she's like, I can't believe you're the actual one. That's crazy. And that was one of the coolest, like, I was like, oh, we didn't used to have a name for that. It's not that women never traveled alone

before you pray love, but we didn't have a culturally broad name, a term for I'm gonna go do this thing by myself for my own benefit, probably because I just went through a breakup or a divorce or I lost a job or something. And now there's a word and everyone understands what that means.

It's so, that's so cool. ["Sleeping in the Morning"] We're going to do a slow round. Who are you jealous of? I can't think of anybody. Second question. Who are you jealous of that you just thought of but didn't say? This interview is over. Get out of my studio. Okay. Oh. And I could never be her. Oh.

And I was so jealous of her for so long. Oh, interesting. Yeah. But you can't say who? No, I wouldn't wanna put them on blast, but it was, but I mean, it was, it was excruciating. You were in love with her, but- No, no, no, I was in love with this dude. This was his ex.

And I just knew that I could never be what that was. He was kind enough to remind me of that frequently. And I was young enough to stick around to be like, well, let me try harder. Let me try harder to be more like that somehow. That's a useful thing. Oh my Lord. You know that that has a happy ending though.

Because I love that guy. Because you're Liz Gilbert, it has a happy ending. Also, she and I communicated once about it, where I was like, I'm sorry if I'm always weird around you, I just was so jealous of you for so long. And then we like sat down and had the most beautiful like heart to heart conversation about it. And now I would call that person a friend.

But- So is that a cure for jealousy, speaking with the person? Maybe. Maybe for you it was. For me, it definitely was. For you it was. Because I felt like I was really weird. I wanted to like her. She was very, I mean, there was a reason he was into her.

She was awesome. Right, right. But I just said, I just felt like I could never, ever, ever compete. And she was like, he made me feel like that too, about other people. And we were like, oh wait, this is something he did. Oh.

Like, oh. It's the plot thick oh, this doesn't actually have anything to do with either one of us. It's just a tactic that somebody used to make us both feel like garbage, I see. Anyway, I was so jealous of her. I mean, like, it was physically painful. It was terrible. I, oh, awful.

I like that second question, that's very smart. It was physically painful. It was terrible. Awful. I like that second question. That's very smart. Very smart. What's the best piece of advice someone's given you that you used? Somebody who was a friend of mine was in architecture school and he wanted to work for this firm in Hong Kong and he saved up all his money and he went to Hong Kong and he went to their offices in the summer

between like two semesters at school and brought his resume there and said, I want to work for you guys in person. And like, I think he called them, this was before cell phones and email, like this, like 30 years ago, he called them from the lobby and said, I'd like to work for you. And they were like, send us your resume. And he's like, I'm actually in the lobby. And, and because I heard that story,

I went to the offices of spin magazine and asked for a job in person. And that's where my journalism career began. Good for you. So it wasn't direct advice, but it was, go to the place, like don't write them a letter. They won't forget you if you're standing in the lobby. You're not a pile of mail.

You're an actual real human being. And that was like life-changing. What's your favorite, do you have a favorite joke joke? Yeah, but it's dirty. Doesn't matter. I mean, if that's okay with you. You probably know it. The guy who's hunting the bear and he keeps missing

and just nicking the bear. Do you know this one? Not offhand. Guy's hunting, this is a group, my grandfather told me this when I was eight. Okay. A man is hunting a bear, while he's hunting in the woods, he sees a bear,

he shoots it, he just nicks it in the shoulder. And the bear is so furious that the bear chases him down. Like, I'm not even kidding when I say my grandfather told me this, takes the guy's shotgun, breaks it over his knee, pulls the guy's pants down and sodomizes him. And the man is so angry that he comes back the next day with a bigger gun and he hunts the bear down.

He can tell Tim because he has a bandage. He hunts him down. He hunts him down and he's like, you know, you violated me. I'm going to punish you. And he shoots him again, misses, hits the other shoulder. Bears like, motherfucker, chases him down, grabs him, breaks the gun in half, bends him over a log, sodomizes him again.

Guy comes back the next day with a huge gun. He's like, this is war. Hunts the bear down, tracks him down, shoots him, misses, the bear chases him, grabs the gun, breaks it, pulls his pants down. Is about to sodomize him and then just stops and puts his hand on the guy's shoulder and goes, let's be honest with each other. This isn't really about hunting anymore, is about to sodomize him, and then just stops, puts his hand on the guy's shoulder, and goes, let's be honest with each other,

this isn't really about hunting anymore, is it? I love, my favorite part is, you know this one, right? I don't think he did. I have not heard that joke. All right, so the last thing we do is working it out for our cause, if there's a nonprofit that you like to contribute to, we will all contribute. We'll link to them in the show notes and encourage listeners to contribute.

I love the Love Land Foundation, founded by Rachel Cargill, and it provides free psychiatric care and therapy for black girls and women. Oh, fantastic. And she just did the Letters from Love. Yeah, she just did the Letters from Love. Fantastic. That's wonderful. Okay, we'll contribute to them. We'll link to them in the show notes.

And Lizzie, thanks so much for coming. Thanks, Mike. This is the best. This is the best. Working it out, cause it's not done. We're working it out, cause there's no... That's going to do it for another episode of Working It Out. You can follow Elizabeth Gilbert on Instagram

at Elizabeth underscore Gilbert underscore writer. You can get her book Big Magic and all of her books at your local independent bookstore and check out Elizabeth Substack at ElizabethGilbert.Substack.com. The full video of this episode is on our YouTube channel. This is my Mike Berbiglia YouTube channel. You get all of the body language. Check out birbigs.com to sign up for the mailing list and be the first to know about my upcoming shows. Our producers are working it out on myself along with Peter Salomon, Joseph Birbiglia,

and Mabel Lewis, associate producer Gary Simon. Sound mix by Shub Saren, supervising engineer Kate Bolinski. Special thanks to Jack Andonoff and Bleejers for their music. They just put out a new Christmas song that is fantastic. Special thanks as always to my wife, the poet, J-Hope Stein. Special thanks to my daughter, Una, who built the original radio for it, made of pillows. And thanks most of all to you who are listening.

If you are enjoying this show, please rate and review it on Apple Podcasts. We have over 4,000 user reviews. It's really exciting for us. We have over 150 episodes that are all free. No paywall, come on, it's all free. We've had Lin-Manuel Miranda and Jim Gaffigan and Maria Bamford.

Check out our back catalog and comment which is your favorite. Thanks most of all to you who are listening. Tell your friends, tell your enemies. Let's say you're visiting your 96-year-old Buff grandfather and you accidentally encounter him when he's tending to the fire naked. In order to break the tension, why not say something like, grandpa, here's a podcast I enjoy. It's called Mike Birbiglia's Working It Out, but put some clothes on first. That way we can all enjoy it together. Thanks everybody, we're Working It Out.

We'll see you next time.