Mike Birbiglia's Working It Out - 152. Gary Gulman Returns: Mommy, Look!

Episode Date: November 25, 2024

Working It Out Hall of Famer Gary Gulman returns to discuss his upcoming Off-Broadway show Grandiloquent. Mike and Gary break down, first of all, what “grandiloquent” means, and how the new show that looks back on Gary’s early life and looks ahead at the prospect of Gary becoming a father. Mike and Gary also check in on their friendship progress, moving from work friends to friend friends. Plus, jokes about soccer game injuries and the pitfalls of lecturing your spouse on pop culture.Please consider donating to Hellen Keller International 

My mother did say something really great. She said, if you have one good friend, you're doing great. And that was really helpful. And also, you're never alone if you have a book. Oh, that's beautiful. Yeah. Both of those are great. Yeah, but she also said when I wanted to be a comedian,

she said, you don't make us laugh. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. ["The Great Gary Gorman"] That is the voice of the great Gary Gorman. Yay. Gary Gorman's back. One of our all-time favorite guests. He has now returned for a three-peat.

The previous two episodes that Gary was in are beloved by our listeners, so you can go back and listen to those. There's no paywall. I love talking to Gary. He has a new live show opening in January at the Lucille Lortel Theater in New York. It is produced by Mike Lavoie and Carly Briglia, who I've worked with on many, many things. And the show is called, wait for it, Grandiloquent. Grandiloquent. What does that mean? That's not a word I use every day. You'll have to listen to the episode to find out.

We go into detail about what the show is about and how he named it. I am so excited to see his show. I love the Lewis Hillertal Theater. It is a gorgeous theater. I've done shows there as well. And I want to thank everyone who's been coming out to my shows last weekend in Michigan, Ohio, and Pennsylvania. I'm heading to Florida. Those shows are sold out. But in December, I will be in Louisville at the Brown Theater, which I adore. I'll be at the Ryman Auditorium in Nashville, Tennessee, which I adore.

They call it the church. It is just the coolest theater. I'll be in Knoxville, Tennessee at a place called the Tennessee Theater, which I found online as sort of one of the famous, historic, beautiful theaters of America. I'll be in Asheville, North Carolina, which by the way, if you were wondering, is happening.

We talked about it, we talked to local folks, do they want me to do it? We're gonna do it. If you can't make it, you can get a refund, but that's December 12th at the Thomas Wolf Auditorium. I'm so excited for that. And then I'm rounding out my year in Charleston, South Carolina at the Gayard Center,

which I've played it before and it's also awesome. Then I'm going to be in Iowa City at the Englert for two nights. In January, I'll be at the Pickering Casino Resort in Ontario. I'll be in Baltimore for two nights at the Center Stage. I'll be in Northampton for two nights. I'll be in Burlington, Vermont, and then the final shows at the Beacon Theater. Four nights, March 19, 2020, 21, 22. I was just over there with our designers the other day, my director, and we were scouting out how we're gonna design the space,

and I'm just super, super excited. All the stuff I'm talking about on tour right now is all in preparation for making those final shows at the Beacon as great as they can be for you. Get your tickets now. All of this is at forbigs.com. I love this episode with Gary Gellman today. In the three episodes that we've done with Gary Gellman,

in some ways, it's a sort of story about our friendship. In the last episode, we asked ourselves, are we work friends or real friends? We dig into that a little deeper today. We talk about Gary's new show. We talk about a comedian's relationship to their audience and how complicated that can be. I actually just saw Gary perform live at the Comedy Studio

in Cambridge, which just reopened after a bunch of years off in a new, new location, and it was so great, and he was so good. So enjoy my chat with the great Gary Gullman. Ooh. Ooh, workin' it. So you're doing a show in January, off Broadway, New York City. Off Broadway. Off Broadway, Lucille Lortel. Oh, that's a good one.

It's a good one, yeah. Oh, really beautiful. I've seen two great shows there. Yes. And, yeah, and it's called grandiloquent. Oh, I love that. Thank you. The two words grand and eloquent?

No, this is the key. Grandiloquent means using extravagant or showy language, and here's my favorite part. That's a single word? Especially when intended to impress. Oh wow. Gary. Oh I love that.

It actually has my name in the definition. Gary. Yeah. Comma Gary. Yeah. Comma Gary, period. Oh my gosh, grand elephant. Yeah.

Can you, without giving away the show, can you describe the show to the listeners it? it's part memoir in that I talk a lot about my life from from first grade and Or an event in first grade that I feel Either either it definitely changed my personality at the time and informs who I am now Yeah, I repeated the first grade and a lot of what I became It definitely changed my personality at the time and informed who I am now, which is I repeated the first grade

and a lot of what I became soon thereafter and what I am now is based on that. That idea that the child is the father of the man, that really resonates with me and so gave rise to a lot of the subjects I cover in the show and about fathers and sons and also my wife and I have frozen some embryos and I was watching the new one

and you really captured that whole thing of having to go into a fertility clinic and humiliate yourself. So humiliating. Humiliating, everybody knows what you did. And Eugene Merman did a great joke that night when we were in Cambridge. At the Comedy Studio in Cambridge, yeah.

And he said that somebody, when he went in to do the fertility thing, somebody said, we love Bob's Burgers. Oh my God. We love Bob's Burgers. Oh my God. We love Bob's Burgers. You're supposed to be anonymous, and they just, that's a HIPAA violation right there. Yeah, everything about it is embarrassing.

Yeah, so a lot of it was considering, for a long time I didn't want to have kids like you, but the main reason I didn't want to have kids was that my childhood was such a nightmare that I didn't want to have kids was that my childhood was such a nightmare that I didn't want to foist that on someone. And so, but once I got healthy, I thought, no, life is a pretty good run. It's a good ride.

It's a good ride. Yeah, and to deny a being this might not be as responsible as you think. That's really interesting. And so if somebody could have a life similar to mine or at least the amount of joy that I'm able to experience in my mid-40s through now I'm 54, I think I'm very positive about the prospects

for a Goldman child. Oh, I love that. Yeah. Last time that you were on the podcast, we talked about our friendship, and we're gonna move towards having less of a work friendship to a real friendship. Are we getting there?

Well, we need to do something together. We need to meet for dinner or lunch or a double date or something like that, and then we'll be in that place. I don't know if I told you when I said this the last time, but I had this friend when I was in high school, and he said, a friend is someone you do stuff with.

Like that was his definition. I love that. Yeah, a friend is someone you do stuff with. And then I had this other friend, Sean, who said, a friend, if you're my friend, he said, and you're stuck in Australia, I will make every effort to come save you. That's beautiful.

Yeah, and that was really, and he was like 18 years old, but that was like a solid friend. But those were the types of friends you make when you, and I explained it in the show, I didn't have a friend until fifth grade. And so I had high ideals for friends, but also attracted loyal friends because it doesn't take much to hurt my feelings

and make me withdraw and yeah. That's fascinating. It's sad. No, it's okay. Really? I's fascinating. It's sad. No, it's okay. Really? I don't think it's sad, but I think it's certainly, I think the reason I'm pausing

is that it's an obsession of mine, like adult friendship is an obsession of mine, because it's like it doesn't have the construct of school. No. School provides a little bit of a framework for, maybe these should be your friends. Maybe find some people in this scrum. And then you get into the grownup world

and it's like, you figure it out. Yes, I mean making friends after 40, it's really tough because we're so set and we have our own friends and usually our partners and so it's difficult to fit them in, but I've been pretty good about making some good friends after 40 and it's easier when you're a comedian too because you have more free time than most people do

and you're intersecting with newer people from time to time when you work on new projects and things. So it's pretty cool. And also the diversity of the types of people that we intersect with, it's like sports or music. We're really lucky. You're absolutely right. Yeah.

So your show is now on sale for January. Yes. Seeing you live, because I saw you live recently, is such an absolute treat. And as people make fun of me in the comments section, my highest recommendation is, I couldn't recommend this more highly.

Seeing you live is just such a joy. Oh, thanks. One of the things that you do that I've never seen anyone do is sometimes you'll say to the audience, I'm at the top of my game, which I think is hilarious. But it's not a lie, I'm really doing good work and I'm not comparing, this is the great thing

that you learn as you get older. Don't compare yourself to the other comedians because they're all better than you. But compare yourself to, in your head, you can make them all better than you. But compare yourself to yourself a year or two ago or when you were working at your best creative level. And that's a fair thing to say.

And I think you're right. Here's my observation. Today I was watching your older clips from like one of your specials in 2002 and the recent clips. Well, here's my observation. Like a different comedian. Yeah, it's a different comedian.

I think your early work, you are presenting as cool. Totally. Right? Like you're a cool guy. Yeah. And when I say that, I mean, you're judgmental of people around you without really acknowledging the absurdity of yourself.

Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. And the challenges of your own. Yeah. And then as you've aged, I feel like you've leaned into uncool. Sure. But actually, by being uncool, you've reached the nirvana of cool. Exactly.

Not the capital N, but the lowercase N, Nirvana. I think I was influenced a lot by the speed of Boston comedy that you tell your jokes. Early on. Yeah, and the need for a male Boston comedian to be the coolest guy in the room. Sure. And that's helpful in some ways

and not helpful in artistic ways a guy in the room. Sure. And that's helpful in some ways and not helpful in artistic ways a lot of the times. Yeah, to give context to people who don't know bossing comedy, it's brash, it's loud, it's very male. It's loud, it's fast. At least when you and I came up in the 90s and early 2000s, and the 80s, certainly. I mean, in the 80s, there's this unbelievably

good documentary called When Stand-Up Stood Out that documents the Boston comedy scene in the 1980s. It is nothing like I've ever seen anything. These people were so out of their minds, they were on cocaine, they were making tons of money and blowing it on things. Tons of cash. Yeah, tons of cash. And the comedians, some of them were great. A lot of them weren't great, but they were just loud and like doing it.

And it was, it's fascinating. And yet Stephen Wright came out of that group. Yeah, there's some great comics who came out of it. But then, yeah, and I want to say it's Solomita is the name of the documentarian. Fran Solomita, yeah. Yeah. And yeah, I've mentioned it before on the show because-

It's riveting. Melania and I used to, on tour, when we first saw the documentary, we used to quote it all the time because there's this great line in it where they're talking about when Stephen Wright got the Tonight Show, which basically meant he made it in the 1980s, and somebody said to him,

-"It's not your turn." -"Oh, wow." It was either him or Bobcat Goldthwait. It was one of those two where someone really made it big, and they were like, -"It's not your turn." Which is very Boston, in the sense that it's the accent of not your turn. And then it's also just kind of like this hierarchy that's sort of fictional. And also this fake fairness.

As though anything's fair. Yeah, as anything's fair. Maybe sports is a complete meritocracy. So you can't imagine somebody saying to LeBron James at 18, you're not out of college. You gotta go to college first. You gotta go to college first. At least go for one year.

You gotta go to Boston College. Yes. It's nuts, but you get it because part of the thing, and this comes back to friendship, about having a friend make it is you're happy for them, but then there's also a sadness because I always think, like Brian Koppelman, we used to spend every Sunday together and then billions took off and we hardly saw each other

for years when he was making that show because he was so busy. And so there's this kind of sadness, I miss my friend, I miss my friend. It's like Josh and redemption when the guy gets out of prison. Like, yeah, I also miss him though. So how do you feel about sitting your show in New York?

I mean, you and I were talking about how, what's funny is, I think it was in your last special, you make fun of people who do one-person shows, and you're like every one-person show could be called. Mommy Look. Mommy Look. Yes, yeah, that was an alternative name to the show, yes. But I mean, I've always admired the form, been intimidated by it, and loved the challenge of it.

But have tried, I think born on third base initially, I wanted to make it a one person show. I would have loved to have had the energy and also the chops to make the Great Depression to a one man show. And so this time I wanted to do it. But yes, I said that just about every one-person show could be called Mommy Look, but I also feel

that every stand-up show that I've given over the past 30 years, the subtext is Mommy Look. It's an audition, an audience of one in some ways. Certainly where I started is Mommy Look. That's how I started performing, I think, at very least. Do you feel like at this stage in your life, is it like a modified Mommy Look? Like it's still Mommy Look, but you've aged with it?

Maybe, but there's still a track in my head that is commenting on the show, sometimes during the show, sometimes just after the show when I consider it, and it's a combination of my mom and some other people in my life, brothers, and people just saying, yeah, you're being indulgent, and this is not what they paid for. And also I remember one night just not being very, very entertaining at the cellar and getting a phone call about my lack of entertaining at the cellar.

And I thought from the higher powers at the cellar and I remember thinking, well, this is a moment. This is an interesting inflection point. You're describing my greatest fear in my life. Basically the thing that haunts my dreams. Seriously. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

I think about it all the time. I feel like, yeah, I feel like my fear is exactly what you're describing. Getting a phone call and saying, hey, we're concerned that this is not entertaining enough. Yeah, I mean, and I was very careful about what parts of the Great Depression I shared at the cellar, because some of it is a bummer,

and some of it is not all that funny, and some of it was not worked out entirely. And we've probably talked about this before, but David Teller, remember, and I heard this third or fourth hand, so who knows what he said originally, but he said, you need a place where you can kill and a place where you can bomb.

And that's really important in finding those places. And you don't have to bomb in the place. That's a beautiful line, by the way. You don't have to bomb in the places that you can bomb. You just have to go with that feeling. Yes. And for me for a while it was the comedy studio. Yeah, in Cambridge.

In Cambridge, the original comedy studio above the Hong Kong. And now I feel like it's QED and Union Hall. But I was dying to talk about this with you, because you've experienced this, where how much different doing comedy for an audience that is there to see a comedy show versus an audience there to see a Mike Birbiglia show. Very different. It is not, for me, it is so much,

the reason why I feel like I'm doing my best work is that I can trust an audience to be patient with me and have the context of what I do and what I'm about before I get on stage. And I'm a little bit spoiled, but also part of me says, well, why should I try to do jokes that everyone will love a little bit instead of trying to write jokes that the people who get it will think they were written, especially for them? But that's why I do both.

Yeah. Because I think, we're discussing like that, your joke that every one person's joke could be called mommy look. And it's like, for me, my journey is, that's definitely how I got into stand up. I think somewhere in my 20s or 30s, I started to have a connection with audiences

where I'm like, oh my God, this is like a deep personal connection. And I've never experienced anything like this before. I'm like, oh my God, this is like a deep personal connection. And I've never experienced anything like this before. And so now I'm chasing that. On stage or off stage? On stage. On stage.

I found that I didn't have that connection a lot off stage, where I could be myself 100% the way I am. Just in your life. Yeah, or closer. Oh yeah, I mean you're describing all of our lives. Right, or closer to my real self on stage in some ways, but then I've also constructed a persona. Oh, certainly. And prepared every single word I say.

No, of course. Which you can't do in a conversation. They want you to ad lib. They. Humans. These people. They want you in a conversation. They want you to ad lib. They. Humans. These people. Humans expect in a conversation that you aren't building to something

and close on a callback. And that's why I feel like I'm constantly disappointing fans when I meet them in real life. Oh my word. Because everything I say is not as good as what I can cross it on stage. Oh, I get that. And it makes me actually understand why performers who I've enjoyed over the years try to avoid interaction sometimes with fans because of that. Because I can see the disappointment

in fans when they talk to me in real time. I think you're projecting. I think all they want is for you to be earnest and sincere. I try, I try. And you don't necessarily have to be funny, but yeah, we're never as funny after the show as we are during the show. We're never as funny as our perfectly constructed 60 minute monologue

we wrote over the course of four years. Exactly. Are you kidding me? Yeah, exactly. Well, it's like I always try to imply to the audience that these are things I've thought of afterwards and not things that I so wittily whipped off. Because I think early in my career, I implied that I was so witty.

Oh, yeah. Moment to moment. That's a very honest and vulnerable thing to say. I think early in my career I implied that I was so witty. Moment to moment. That's a very honest and vulnerable thing to say. I didn't say that right away, because the original way most of us start off, or I remember there was this guy, I think his name was Chuck Martin, and he said that he thought when he first started

doing comedy that it was just snappy answers, stupid questions from that magazine. And there is a brand of that in comedy. These people who just make a list of all the funny things. In Boston, it was always the witty things they said to police officers arresting them for drunk driving. My gosh, that's so funny. It was so gross on so many levels,

but would murder at the comedy shows in Boston in the early 90s when I started. Now I think people are like, yeah, you shouldn't drink and drive. But back then it was like, yeah, we all do it. Mulaney and Kroll used to goof around about the... They called that comic the Do What I Do comic. Oh my God. Oh, you ever in a situation like that? Do what I do. And then it's something they definitely didn't do.

And then as an audience, you're supposed to believe that that's what they did. And it's like, no, do what I do. You take a shit in the top of their couch and then you leave. It's like, no, I don't think that happened. I love that. On Todd Glass' first Comedy Central Presents, he did this, do what I do, I love that. On Todd Glass's first Comedy Central Presents,

he did this Do What I Do, but he just, I mean they were so absurd. Like at one point he got into a kangaroo costume and took a dump on somebody's lawn. And he said, do what I do. He was making fun of it. It was a satire of the Do What I Do. Yeah, yeah.

Comedians. Do what I do. Yes, it was just so crazy. ["Do What I Do"] I was watching your classic bit about state abbreviations. Oh, okay. At the beginning of the bit, you say, I watched a documentary about state abbreviations, then you go into this hilarious bit that's outrageous and extreme and hyperbolic. And then of course I look up the documentary.

There is no documentary. This is the Hassan Minaj moment of Gary Dahlman's career. Oh my gosh, that's hilarious. I captured you, I trapped you. You're lying about the documentary. That's hilarious. But I've told you this before, but that joke was in my NOPA for 20 years,

but until they started making documentaries about little things, there was really no way to tell it, or I didn't know the way to tell it. Right, like in other words, it was the conceit of there was this documentary as opposed to this is just this thing I'm thinking about. Yes, the thing I've been thinking about since third grade when I got a book and they had all the state abbreviations in it

and I thought it's gonna be impossible to memorize these because I was really into memorizing things for no reason other than I had a lot of time and I remember thinking it's gonna be really hard to memorize these because most of these states start with the same first two letters and then when you start doing comedy, I don't know if you went through this,

where you're spending days all day long thinking, is this funny, is this funny, is this funny? And what about the fact that most of the states start with the same two letters, but then soon thereafter, the premise isn't strong enough to hold the rest of the joke. There is this great interview with George Saunders, who I know you and I both love.

I love him. Where he's talking about how so much of being a writer is reading your own writing and seeing if it still brings you joy or lights you up and then being honest with yourself about whether it does. Yeah. Because so often we're like, oh yeah, this works,

this works, this works, and it's like, well, does it? Are you really holding yourself to the full standard? Yeah, I had a joke that I've had for months and months and there are some biblical puns in it and the main premise is that I feel that the sermon on the mount was not improvised, that Jesus workshopped it. And so I'm touring it for months,

and I had two pretty solid puns in there that one of the clubs that he worked it out at was the Proverb Factory, and then John says, is that the one on Melrose? And Jesus says, no, that's the Hymn Prop. And this guy who's a fan, but a lot of fans can be very funny. Right?

And so he says, what about saying that he went to all the open mounts? Oh, that's good. And I thought that was terrific. And I used it in the next show and it got a laugh. And I was like, oh my gosh, my fans. One of my favorite jokes of yours is you go, millennials get criticized by middle-aged men

who say, how are they gonna learn how to lose? And then you go, oh, they'll get some practice. Are you familiar at all with life? And I love that joke because it's so economical. It's so few words. Oh, thanks. If you're familiar with life. Ha ha ha.

Ha ha ha. And I was curious, like how'd you arrive at it? And did it take a series of drafts or did it just come to you? The first part, here's what was difficult with any time you say anything good about millennials at the average comedy club. I won't say they're bad comedy about millennials at the average comedy club, I won't say they're bad comedy clubs,

but the average comedy club is that they're so conditioned from comedians bashing millennials. And now that joke applies of course to Gen Z also. Yeah. It's the same joke basically. Yeah, they think you're being sarcastic. So it was always a fight against that. And I said, no, I mean this. They're kinder on the average and more empathetic

than we are and much less tolerant of bullies and homophobia and things like that. And so that was a hurdle initially. But then, but also a lot of the, in the average comedy club, a lot of the people feel that these kids are getting participation trophies and they're not learning how to lose. So you've probably got some shivering

or thinking you're being sarcastic. Yes, exactly. So you had to fight through that, but then you'll get some practice. That was always there. And once you have, they'll get some practice. All you have to do is come up with what the practice will be. And then here's the thing.

You can go truly specific and say, have you ever interviewed for a job? Right? Or anything like that. Not as funny as the broader, which is counterintuitive to what we do in comedy, which is specific, specific, specific, or good comedy, but every once in a while, you go really general, and Norm MacDonald was one of the best at that,

at going really, really general or specific. I mean, he was, man, like a lot of the things he said were basically just the simple truth and he wasn't really putting much on it. Yeah, no, he would do, he was really great executor of understatement and overstatement. Yes. So he would say things like, Hitler, the executor of understatement and overstatement. So he would say things like, Hitler,

we should be worried about that guy. Yes, yes. But the interesting- The understatement of all time. The interesting thing is that we could probably take most of our jokes and say, well, this is that formula. Oh no, certainly. Yeah, this is understatement.

But it's what we're able to do with it at this point in our decades long careers to make it seem fresh or original. And I always think about how the simple truth is frequently the funniest and just saying something, using the right words is so much of it. Yeah, you familiar at all with life?

Thanks, man. It's great. Are you familiar at all with life? Your therapist told you the audience is not your family because these people are rooting for you. Do you have a person in your life who in hindsight, you could have rooted for more? Oof, man.

Wow, this is a great, this is a great question and I want to give it, and I don't have an answer right off the top of my head, but I think most of my friends growing up until I was, I don't think when I played basketball or I was in school or being around my friends, it wasn't that common that you would compliment a friend or tell them what you thought of them.

And I wish I had told my friend, other than laughing at everything he said, my friend Jason Hurwitz, I wish I had told him in explicit words, my gosh, you are so smart and funny and talented and so insightful and you bring me so much joy and I feel like I can be myself around you and I feel like you truly get me

and love me and accept me. And I want you to know that I will be that person for you. But we're all so insecure and in our heads and afraid of losing friends by being too nice or too, especially men and especially New England men. We just didn't tell... I'm sure I expressed in the way that we were comfortable expressing and the way that he would get it, but there are boys who do that.

They usually wind up, they're usually just so much more mature and have a better parental system and don't have a brother saying things about you, saying open things to them and because it makes them uncomfortable giving you a hard time. I mean, even in goodwill hunting when they are affectionate with each other, there's always a kicker or if you watch the sopranos, it's impossible for them to be open and kind with each other. So I wish I had been that guy earlier. And I didn't have to, you don't have to be that with everybody, just the people you feel safe with.

And my mother did say something really great. She said, if you have one good friend, you're doing great. And that was really helpful. And also, you're never alone if you have a book. Oh, that's beautiful. Yeah. Both of those are great. Yeah, but she also said when I wanted to be a comedian,

she said, you don't make us laugh. Why don't you stop by making us laugh? She said so, yeah. Oh, I love that. she had her good and bad. Yeah. I love that. This is called the slow round. Who are you jealous of?

And the second question is, who are you jealous of that you just thought of but didn't say, oh wow, who am I jealous of? There was a time when there would be a new comedian. When I first saw Dame Cook when I was 22 years old and going to my first open mic, and I saw an open mic, and I was like, this guy is in an open mic. And I didn't know anything about him

or his trajectory or anything like that. I just remember being like, he just made these people go crazy with how funny he was about Speak and Spell and Jurassic Park, and he's 18 or 19 years old, and I was like, oh, here's the thing that you have to avoid in early comedy, is seeing somebody who makes you want to quit.

Like, I remember I couldn't watch too much Brian Regan because there was always this thing where I was like, why do I even bother? It's being done better, more physical, and it's a similar, when I watch Chris Fleming now, I'm like, man, is he bringing everything into every joke. Fearless.

Yeah, and why is anybody else doing comedy? Because he's got it so locked down and he's so original and fun and joyous and smart and also the way he moves. I'm envious of him. That's so funny. My gosh, he's a trained dancer. He's a good person to be jealous of. Totally.

And he's a great dresser too. Oh, I love how he dresses. I love how he dresses and I'm like, yeah, at 54 I can't wear a boa. Ha ha ha. Even if I wanted, even if that was me, I couldn't, could you imagine going to the comedy cellar and wearing a boa at any age?

Can you think of a time that you were so scared you ran away? Wow. Literally ran away? Yeah. The literal one was, there was this, and he was very, he was significantly smaller than me, but he had threatened to beat me up

and also made an anti-Semitic remark. And my father had ingrained it in me that somebody makes an anti-Semitic remark, you have to fight them. You cannot not fight them. And so I'm walking home and this kid's taunting me and he throws in the anti-Semitic remark and we were right next to a drop off,

next to the sidewalk that kind of went into a, it wasn't a ravine in that you could get hurt, but it was a sloping area that you would tumble if you were pushed over it. And he was walking beside me, following me home, and then we got to this ravine area, and I hadn't planned it, and I just pushed him. And then I ran.

I ran for my life. He tumbled, he tumbled? He tumbled down the ravine? He tumbled, and then it gave me an opportunity to get enough, to get enough distance that I could get to my house. And if the key was in the mailbox, I would be able to get in. And of course, the key was not in the mailbox.

And he caught up to me. And then we had a thing out front of my head. This is straight out of Goonies. Out of my house. This is Jewish Goonies. The Fratellis, yeah. Was that the name of the Fratellis? Oh, the name of the family?

Yeah, that they were trying to avoid. Yeah, oh my gosh, straight out of the Goonies. It really is. Yeah, but I really ran from fear, obviously. I wanted to get to material because I'm working on a story for my show right now that is about how I would play soccer when I was a kid. And the story is really about my dad because a lot of the show that I'm in the show right

now I'm really trying to round out what was previously kind of a two-dimensional version of my dad. He'd shout, he'd be like, God damn it, why is there a watermelon? I'd be like, do we have water? You know, like, because it wasn't always so dramatic. But stand-up is always so two-dimensional, and you can't put the three dimension, the third dimension in, which is the fact that we're humans

and have contradictions and some good and some bad. Right. Because you don't have long enough. You don't have long enough. You don't have the right context, which the one man show is the context for. That's right. And so you can, and you can have,

if you are comfortable with those quiet moments. Right, so I'm trying to work on dimensionalizing my dad and what I, cause I start with a joke about how when I was a kid, my dad was a doctor and in his free time he got his law degree. And I go, that's how much he didn't want to be a dad. Wow. And, and you know, and in fairness, we weren't great kids.

You know, we always wanted a dad when he wanted another secondary degree. So that's like the joke part of it, right? So good. But then I, so then the rounding out of it, dimensionalizing of it, I was trying to think like, what is the thing about my dad that was really sweet? And I go like, he wasn't absent.

He would show up for soccer games, which I felt like weren't my best showcase. Oh. You know? Yeah. Cause it was like, he didn't show up for the play. Right. Which is the thing that I was going pro with. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Oh, that's really good. But he'd show up for soccer games. And then, and with youth soccer, of course. And how did you feel when he was there? Did you get nervous? I used to get so nervous and anxious. Yeah, I always thought about it. And because I was okay at soccer,

I will say like youth soccer, at least in the 80s, it's very simple. A bunch of middle-aged men chasing children around going, don't use your hands. And that's the whole game. That's so good. And then if you're terrible at it, you're the goalie. Here's this neon yellow shirt.

It's very funny. And some gloves stand in that box. So I was the goalie. Here's this neon yellow shirt and some gloves standing in that box. So I was the goalie. And what I had going for me as the goalie was not my skill set, but my aggression. I was very tenacious, which I still am now in my comedy. And I remember one time there was a ball rolling

towards me in a game. I sprinted towards it and I made the mistake of diving head first towards the ball, which you should not do. Because I got, I get the ball, I reach the ball, the guy sprinting towards it, kicks my head like it is the ball. And then I say to the audience, I go, I don't remember the rest of the story,

but here's what was told to me by my teammates. Apparently, I hopped right up. And I go, I'm good. Yeah, everyone's worried. I'm good. Wow. And then the game continues. Again, I don't remember this part of the story.

And then 15 minutes later, I wander off the field between the field and the concession stand. And everyone on my team are like, Mike, are you okay? And I go, what are we even doing here? No. And they stop the game and I never played soccer goal again.

And then I go, the reason why I bring it up is that what I remember from that day is that my dad drove me home and he asked me all the questions a neurologist asks their patient. And I understood why people thought my dad was a great doctor. I never knew. Yeah. I never knew I saw this side of him.

Wow. He was so, he's a great bedside manner. Yeah. And patient. That's incredible. Awful. And that's such a great anecdote. And also he came to see you at your thing

and then you got to see him at his thing. Yeah. It's really, you became a patient and a son. Yeah, and I saw very, you know, and then I bring up this anecdote from recently where I'm- Because of HIPAA, you cannot do the, bring your son to work day as a doctor. Yeah. Because of HIPAA, you cannot bring your son to work day as a doctor. That's true, yeah.

And have your dad operate or do whatever he does with people with his son there. And people would come up to me when I was a kid and they would go like, total strangers would go, oh, your dad, Dr. Burt Bigley, he'd go, he's a great doctor. And I'd go, okay, you know what I mean? Yeah.

Because I never saw that side of him. Wow. That's really strong. He's a great doctor and I go, okay. You know what I mean? Because I never saw that side of him. That's really strong. One thing that I was thinking is so meaningful and an aspect of being a good father and it doesn't have to be being a great doctor, but one thing that would be great to be as a father is appreciated by the people that they work with.

It's a really nice aspect of humanity. And I read Barry Sonnenfeld, right? He's the director of Men in Black. And it's a hilarious memoir. And he just bashes his mom and dad the entire way, and it's funny, and you can't believe the stories are so crazy, but you know they're true because they're so crazy.

And at the end, he's talking about being at his mother's funeral and all the people that she worked in the school system, I think as a teacher and also an administrator, and all the people that she worked in the school system, I think as a teacher and also an administrator, and all the people who she had affected in their life. It made me think that, all right, this woman was a horrific mother, but what a great feeling to have somebody speak so well of this mother that you had a different relationship with. I mean, that's one thing. I have a very complicated relationship with my mother,

but people love her. If you've worked with her, if you've been exposed to her for two and a half hours at a time, she's witty, she's kind, she's thoughtful, she's generous, but of course, if you live with her, you see every side of her, and there's kind, she's thoughtful, she's generous. But of course, if you live with her, you see every side of her and there's a lot of painful sides and there's a lot of sides you both wish that somebody would take back their contribution to it.

And I think that story, I mean, will you do it closer to the end of the show? Yeah, it's such a... I mean, that's what I love about your one person shows is that you get a to go bag at the end where you kind of sum up the show and there's a part where it's almost, you don't do this intentionally, but if somebody were to say, well, what's the show about? And then it's a pre-C of what the show is about,

and it's also very, very moving, and there's a kicker, and it's funny, and it's just, it's so important, and you build to that, and I mean, I'm aspiring to that in what I'm doing now. ["The Last Supper"] to that in what I'm doing now. Is there material you're working on right now? Yes. I mean, one of the things I've been working on is this thing about my intellectual insecurity and how it's beneficial to my audience in that

I want to write smart jokes. And so I work really hard on writing smart jokes, but this need to consider myself smart and feel smart, my wife has to experience that the other 22 hours of the day. So she'll say, and I think you might have seen this, she'll say, who sings this? And I hear it, hey, could you give me a three hour lecture on the grunge movement and turn this car ride into a hostage crisis?

And I'm being held hostage by Kurt Loder of MTV News. Oh my God. And so it's a 10 minute routine that I've been doing and I'm being held hostage by Kurt Loder of MTV News. Oh my God. And so it's a 10 minute routine that I had to memorize and then test out, but the good thing is you get, you make it sound less memorized as it goes along, but then there's this push pull where does this sound too written?

Right. And it's challenging because they have to believe that you're thinking of it just now. Right. But then there's also an ending where 10 minutes in, Sade says, oh good, we're here. So good. But is it? Oh, I like the ending.

It felt so. Because I saw you do it live. Yeah, but doesn't it, here's the problem with comedians who write really hard. We distrust if it's easy. Like it didn't take a lot for me to think, yeah, why don't you just say, oh, we're here. So I distrust it, right? Do you get what I'm saying?

Where something seems too easy to be good? No, no, no, no, no. I, okay, if you want me to be super honest about that bit, because I saw you do it in front of an audience, I thought it was great. You basically do, Shade, your wife asks you, the construct of it is, she asks you who sings the song. You go into a tangent on a tangent on a tangent

on a tangent that reveals your own kind of like, intellectual insecurity and also knowledge of grunge rock and all these things. And then the way that it resolves is she goes, oh, we're here. And I think it, I want to say it runs 10 minutes. I think you cut it to the funniest five minutes so that the audience is distracted

by the absurdity of what you're talking about such that you can quickly circle back to Sade and then they're like, oh right, we were in the car the whole time. And I think that'll be great though. Because here's what I like about the Sade driving in the car bit. I get I think that'll be great though. Because here's what I like about the Sade driving in the car bit. I get a sense of a lot of things.

I get a sense of location. I get a sense of where you are. I get a sense of your relationship with her. I get a sense of your backstory, your backstory in the 90s, what you're interested in in music. So here's this five minute capsule and I'm getting a lot from you.

Which I think is so crucial in a show like this. But also you give me an idea that maybe to try and find some areas that do explain more about our relationship and who she is. And I think that's really interesting. But there was one thing that I... And also, it's worth pointing out, because not that many people do these types of solo shows.

In my experience, the audience is... I'm sorry if I seem rude. I'm looking up this quote by Zadie Smith, so forgive me. In my experience, the audience will be patient with you if you step out of your story and without jokes, say, here's the dynamic between me and Sade, or here's a little quick detail about me and Sade's apartment, et cetera, whatever it is.

But that kind of thing could have major impact on that five minute driving in the car bet too. Yes, no, totally. Which is something you don't think about if you're just trying to get laughs. Absolutely. The final thing we do is working it out for our cause. Is there a nonprofit that you like to contribute to? Yes.

And I think I did it the last time, the Helen Keller Foundation. Yes, through the givewell.org. I found them in a book by Peter Singer, The Most Good You Can Do. And the thing with The Most Good You can do and the effective altruism movement is they figured out that you can save a life with $5,000. So you want to find a charity that will take the most out of your $5,000. I'm not saying I get $5,000 every

time, but the- I follow the logic of it, yeah. Yeah, that will do the most with your $5,000. And they say that in one case, there's a charity that provides malaria nets, and they feel like they can save the most lives by giving malaria nets with $5,000. You can save one life. And it's a similar thing with Helen Keller Foundation

where they provide vitamin A, which I don't even think about vitamin A, but there are kids and people who suffer from vitamin A deficiency, and it causes blindness and it can cause death. So by providing vitamin A, it's a cheap, effective way to save lives. So I would like to contribute to that cause, yeah.

So givewell.org, we search for the charities that save or improve lives the most per dollar. That's fantastic. Yeah. We'll contribute to them. We'll link to the show notes and encourage the listeners to contribute as well. Gary Yolman, I'm thrilled to see your new show.

Oh man, I would love it if you could come to a night. Yeah, that would be awesome. I can't wait. Thank you. I really appreciate that. Working it out, cause it's not done. Working it out, cause there's no. That's gonna do it for another episode of Working It Out.

You can follow Gary Gullman on Instagram, at Gary Gullman. He is on tour now in California, New Hampshire, Rhode Island, Pennsylvania, and in January at the Lucille Lortel Theater in New York. Tickets at garygullman.com. You can watch the full video of this episode on my YouTube channel at Mike Birbiglia.

While you're at it, you can see some of the other episodes. You got the Lynn Miranda one is great on YouTube. The Elizabeth Gilbert one is great. Bridget Everett. Check that out and subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, because we're posting more videos all the time. Check out Burbigs.com to sign up for the mailing list and be the first to know about my upcoming shows. Our producers are working it out on myself along with Peter Salomon, Joseph Burbiglia, Mabel Lewis, Associate Producer Gary Simons, Sound Mix by Ben Cruz, Supervising Engineer Kate Belinsky, Special Thanks to Jack Antonoff and Bleacher's Further Music, they have a new Christmas song that I love, Special Thanks as always to my wife, the poet J-Hope Stein,

and my daughter Una who built the original radio fort made of pillows. Thanks most of all to you who are listening. If you enjoy our show, rate us and review us on Apple Podcast. Over 4,000 reviews, come on. Thank you so much for that. We really, really appreciate it. You can listen to all 150 plus episodes we've done. We've had Seth Meyers and Quinta Brunson and Jamie Fallon, all these great people. We're really proud of the show.

And if you're able to comment on Apple Podcasts, which is your favorite, people might know where to start. They're working it out journey. Thanks most of all to you. Tell yours, which is your favorite. People might know where to start. They're working it out journey. Thanks most of all to you. Tell your friends, tell your enemies. Let's say you're lost in Boston. Easy, easy city to get lost in, old style roads.

You encounter some tough Boston comedians and you're a little intimidated. So do what I do. Remember a podcast called Mike Babiglia's Working It Out. It's where comics work out jokes and stories and creative process. Then take a shit on the top of their couch and leave. Don't do that. Just recommend the podcast. Thanks everybody. We're working it out. We'll see you next time.