Mike Birbiglia's Working It Out - 157. Matt Rogers: Las Culturistas Meets Las Birbiglia-istas

Episode Date: January 20, 2025

Matt Rogers is a beloved comedian, writer, actor, and co-host of cult hit podcast “Las Culturistas.” Matt sits down with Mike for a chat about the ups and downs of show business, the inside of writing for a hit TV series, and what it was like when Matt and his podcast co-host Bowen Yang were both invited to audition for SNL. Matt also discusses why having fun is the most important ingredient for creativity. Plus, advice via Jessica Chastain and why Mike somewhat regularly has to throw muffins in the garbage.Please consider donating to Story Pirates ChangemakersPlease consider supporting the California Fire Foundation and Los Angeles Fire Department Foundation

Okay. Kelly Clarkson versus Mariah. The nicest restaurant in the world calls you and says they can only get a reservation for two. You and Mariah Carey or you and Kelly Clarkson, who do you invite? Kelly. Why? Because you can talk to her.

You know what I mean? I think you'd have to be a real egomaniac to relax around Mariah. Right. That would be crazy. Whereas Kelly is like, she's down to chat. Yeah. Plus I think we'd be way better at sharing apps. Like I feel like Kelly says, let's get wings on the table.

Mariah, like what are we ordering? You know what I mean? Like anchovies and a glass of water. That is the voice of the great Matt Rogers. and a glass of water. -♪ MUSIC PLAYING Charistas that he co-hosts with Bowen Yang, who's also been a wonderful guest on this podcast. He acted in Vanessa Bayer's show, I Love That For You, which I love, and the new Netflix series No Good Deed, which is hilarious. He is the self-proclaimed pop prince of Christmas.

He has a comedy special on Showtime called Have You Heard of Christmas, which is great. We have a great conversation today. I'd love this episode. I should note this interview is recorded before the awful fires in Los Angeles. My heart goes out to everyone in LA. It's terrible. Please consider donating to the California Fire Foundation, Los Angeles, as well as Los Angeles Fire Department Foundation. We'll put those links in the show notes. This week we have some news about my shows in New York City. Tomorrow, this has not been announced yet, we are adding a sixth show at the Beacon Theater. A sixth show tomorrow, Tuesday. You are the first to know. If you sign up for the mailing list, you will get the pre-sale code. It is a sixth show at the Beacon Theater of my show,

which is called The Good Life. And I'm performing in a few more cities. I just added three shows in West Palm Beach at the Kravis Center in this beautiful black box they have. It's like a two or 300 seat black box they have at the Kravis Center, February 13, 14, and 15. I will also be in Northampton and Burlington, Vermont, and Baltimore,

but I think all those three cities are sold out. And we might be adding a couple other cities. Stay tuned and join the mailing list on burrbiggs.com. I love talking to Matt Rogers today. We talk a lot about the movie Don't Think Twice. If you don't know the movie, it is about a group of best friends in an improv group and one of them gets cast on a Saturday Night Live type of show and the others don't. And it's about sort of, you you know life and what happens when people realize that they're they're not gonna all do the same thing or get the same thing and

and sort of the pain that that can cause in friendships and and it's a movie I'm super proud of and it's very personal to me and so it we talk a lot about Matt is sort of really honest about his experience of watching that movie when he was younger and seeing it through one lens and then seeing it as he got older through a different lens. And I, someone who created it, I'd love hearing about it because he talks about his relationship of auditioning for Siren Live at the same time as Bowen Yang, who's one of his best friends and collaborator. It's just a really honest conversation and I just loved it.

I mean, it was one of the coolest conversations I've ever, I feel like I've ever had on this show. We talk about that, we talk about pop culture, which I don't know that much about. Matt even sings the song from the land before time. What else could you want? Enjoy my chat with the great Matt Rogers. I wanted to talk to you about that. Don't Think Twice, yeah.

Because... He's pointing to my movie poster if you're listening to it. I'm pointing to the poster of the film Don't Think Twice. I remember when I watched that movie, I was in the UCB system and I felt a lot of hope and possibility and moving forward. And then I remember when I saw that movie,

at the time I had a very negative reaction to it because I felt like it was a very, not cynical or mean-spirited, but a harsh take on what it might feel like for things to not go well. And I remember, well's talk about it. Well, then I literally went through that situation. And I- Haven't we all?

Well, like, but I mean like- Like were you in Hammer Cats? I was in Hammer Cats. Yeah, yeah, yeah, so like everyone blew up. And people don't know, Hammer Cats is like a very famous, I mean, if an improv group in college can be famous, that's the one, because they had Donald Glover in like... So it started with Donald Glover,

and then like Rachel Bloom was in the group the year before me, and then I was... Big hitters. And so basically like... And was Bowen in it? Bowen was in Danger Box. So there was the improv group Danger Box, and then the sketch group Hammer Cats.

And it was this time where I'm talking about like, we were all really finding ourselves, and looking around and being like, wow, everyone seems special. And then I remember, it's so apropos because the Golden Globes aired last night, but Bowen and I were at his apartment in downtown Brooklyn and we're watching the Golden Globes

and Rachel Bloom wins a fucking Golden Globe. And I look at Bowen and I'm like... For Crazy Ex-Girlfriend. Yes, for Crazy Ex-Girlfriend. And I was like, wait, is it possible that these people that we think are actually special really are? Like, is it possible that this could happen? And we were like, we don't know.

But since then, I mean, you know who else was in Hammer Cats? Stephanie Hsu from Everything Ever Were All at Once. Like Oscar nominee. Like, you know what I mean? Jack Quaid was in Hammer Cats. Like Dennis Quaid and Meg Ryan's son, who's now on The Boys and like all these things. Like, you look around at that time

and there were really special people which put like a certain pressure on the situation because all of a sudden it's like, well, I know I'm talented and I know I can do it. And therefore it's gonna be harder. And then when I watched your movie, I remember there's specifically a scene where Tammy Sager's character finds out,

or she reveals that she's a writer on the show. Yeah, on like the Saturday night live type of show. On the weekend live. And I remember your character calls her C-U-M-T. And I just remember thinking like, what a mean-spirited depiction of our community. I remember it was a real fire starter amongst people that were doing that,

because I was on a UCB house team, I was doing it. I'm never in these conversations, because I made the movie, so I love hearing stuff like this. But I was excited to come talk to you about it, because I remember my perspective on your film then, as opposed to now, now that I know what happens and what gets revealed when you are faced with that opportunity,

or really any opportunity, amidst your peers and amidst a community that felt purely artistic or creative and then becomes business and becomes political and like all these other things come in, I actually think that you really nailed like the very ugly places that you can go, both interior and exterior, when something like that gets magnified.

And I think my future was like low key, it was like time is a flat circle when I watched the movie because I was like, nah, when I go through that, I'm gonna be either graceful or successful. Well, you know, there is something about it that's like looking into the void of the thing. But of course I have years on you, like I'm older than you, so I lived through the ups and downs of it.

I don't even view it as a cynical movie. I actually view it weirdly as like, yeah, life goes on and everybody kind of finds their way. And like ultimately though, I had to be a mature person and watch it to see it like that because I think what happened was like, when it got ugly and relationships changed. Yeah, of course.

I was like in a state of denial about that because I was like, but I don't want my relationships to change, but then relationships change. Yeah. And I think I, at the time when I was watching your movie and so involved in like the Upright Citizens Brigade system and so in indie sketch and so on the precipice

of any of that happening to me, anyone I was close to. I just wanted to maintain that purity. Yeah, of course. And I wanted to maintain the era that I was living with, but that was just that, an era. Who were you most jealous of in that era? Who was I most jealous of? And are you jealous of them now?

You know what? I think that it's less jealousy and more envy. It was like, I remember being that age, so when I was 24, 25, my first collaborative creative partner named Sudi Green was put on SNL as a writer. Oh, wow. And so she was like incredibly young for that.

And so I remember that feeling like, whoa, again, like this is right after Rachel Bloom has won the globe, now Sudi's working at SNL, et cetera. So I kind of pivot at that point to an exclusively collaborative relationship with Bowen. And then a couple years later, we both get the invitation to screen test for SNL.

Unbelievable. And amazing, totally irrespective of each other too. Not as a duo, nothing. This is after the podcast is going a couple years. It looks like it's gonna be successful, but it's not yet like major. But we were sort of a package deal in the comedy community. And then we get this individual opportunity

where they bring us in, we test, we both do well enough where we're put on hold. We both get as far as you possibly can and then someone's gonna get a job and someone doesn't and for reasons known only to whatever, it goes one way for him, one way for me. And I remember thinking, I can't believe this is happening to me again.

Like I went through a lot where certainly at that point, I developed envy for the experiences they were gonna have. Of course. And what I didn't understand was that it was not just the loss of those experiences for me, it was like a door opening to like so many other things.

And now I have to say, that's why I have so much love for the movie because everything is gonna be fine for everyone in there. It's a really formative experience that I'm so happy that I had because I legitimately don't fear anything in the industry anymore, weirdly. After going through that at 28. I went through it like four or five times over. In some ways I feel like I'm still going through it again and again

with different cycles of people. And I feel like writing that movie weirdly cured me of being envious of people because I spent so much time in the characters and my character was Miles who goes off on Tammy and everything and he's so better. That character is like so better. And like living it and like acting it, I was just like, there's no point.

Like this is a wasted emotion. It really is because you can, it's hard to, it's like, so one of the things I'm really bad with dealing with is rejection. I deal, I don't do well with it because I think I look at it as like a personal failing. It's like, well, what did I do wrong? And me, like, I have such like best little boy

in the world syndrome from when I'm a little kid and like I'm the oldest son of a varsity football coach father from Long Island. Everything I read about you, I'm like, Jesus, you're like, you scored super highly on all of your standardized tests and you ran a four and a half minute mile and all this stuff that was crazy.

I've, I said. And you're a great singer and you're special, you sing, you're amazing. Thank you. Like all the things you do, I like this person is not for a comedian. You're not an underdog No, you're as my daughter would say you're an overdog. I Still don't think of myself as that. I oh it's never enough for me Yeah, and I think that's why when something like that happens like not getting And I think that's why when something like that happens, like not getting, the thing you would set out to do,

like I'm an extremely goal-oriented person. Like, I guess it boils down to like, I am so like goal-oriented and such a driven person that it almost makes me like not interesting. Like you can guess like what my goals were. I was like a gay kid on Long Island. I went to NYU. My goal was to get on Saturday Night Live.

You know what I mean? To the point where when I felt like I had that opportunity at SNL, I had checked every box. I had done Just For Laughs. I had done all the comics to watches. I had been, so that when I didn't get it, it didn't compute and felt like an abject rejection of me.

And in fact, I moved myself all the way across the country just to get away from anything that could possibly remind myself of that failure. And I'm happy I did. And I can also link it to my toughest breakup. I'm ultimately happy I went through it because it made me stronger. But when it's going on and when you're a kid

who sees himself as potentially being that version of someone who's being rejected, it's hard. Especially when you know intrinsically that you're someone who takes shit so tough. I was just thinking about this the other day because years ago I had it with my special, the new one. They had offered me a slot at the public theater and it was like, oh, that's amazing.

And we went in and we had a meeting and we talked about whatever. And then one day my agent called me and they're like, he's like, it's not gonna work at the public anymore. And I was like, well, can we just do a different time of year? And he's just like, no, they're just like fully pulling. And I was one of the only times that happened in my career.

I cried. Yeah, sorry. I remember where I was. I was in Berkeley, California on tour. I literally just started crying, just bawling. There's something about the rejection of someone kind of offering you something and then taking it away

where it's so hard to not feel it personally. Like, why are you doing this to me? Meanwhile, I end up doing it at Cherry Lane, it's great, it goes to Broadway. You don't know what the path is for the thing that is not gonna work. You don't know where it actually is gonna go. And I end up going in amazing.

Yeah, that door at that point is not open because you haven't opened it as a possibility, let alone what's behind it. It's like I had one door I was looking at, I have the key to it. Like I'm dressed for whatever's going on on the inside, the party inside, I know I'm gonna slay at this party, what do you mean I'm not invited in?

You know what I mean? And so to answer your question about like jealousy and envy, I'm not gonna say I was perfect. Like I watch SNL less now than I did before. But it has nothing to do with me being a curmudgeon about it and more me being like, I'm just more interested in everything outside of it because I know other things exist.

Whereas like honestly SNL was really daddy. Of course it is. That's really what that is. It was me trying to get daddy's approval, not saying daddy is any one person, but it is the patriarchal thing. And it's literally the reason why me as a kid who at eight years old, you know,

I was watching the Oscars and I was like, I think I belong in that room and not in this room, meaning my living room in suburban Long Island. I don't belong here, I know I belong in there. But you realize you're gay and you have to like make a tangible enough way that your parents can understand you pursuing entertainment. So what I said was, I'm gonna do comedy.

And I knew the end goal was SNL because it's so cool. It's like, it's acceptable by the patriarchy, it's daddy. And then when daddy said no, I was like, okay, where's mommy? You know what I mean? And mommy was a million other things. Or maybe you didn't need mommy or daddy. I'm like, you were okay as an orphan.

And I went out there as an orphan to Los Angeles and I orphaned in writing, I orphaned in singing, I orphaned all over to the point where now I have a career where I'm like, if I'm hard on myself, I know it's that. And it's not that I'm not someone that's succeeding. It's I know my thing is that it is my natural tendency to be like, not good enough. Yeah, it's weird. It's like the thing that I tell people

who are starting in the business is, I'm 46 and I moved to New York when I was like 22 years old and it's the same. It never stops being, you're doing the thing. And if you do the thing well enough, people want to see it. And if you don't, they kind of don't. And it was true then and it's true now.

Like if my shows aren't good, like people are like, hey, you shouldn't see that one, it's not good. And no one shows up. I mean, and they're entitled. And they're entitled. Everyone's entitled. They're right. My thing that I learned, it was actually an Amy Poehler's

book, it was so simple. It was just, if you're having fun, they're having fun. So now I'm just like, wow, and I always think I knew that, but then so many things can get in the way, and I can actually think now, I can look back and I think if something felt like it flopped or failed or stalled, it's probably because I wasn't having fun doing it, and then I can attach that

to like how lucky and grateful I am to be doing this at all, which is that I can say, well, remember to have fun in the pursuit of all these things. And it actually kind of is up to you in a way. Yes. You know what I mean? Oh, absolutely. That's like literally what my dad,

like the best piece of my advice my dad's ever given me since I was a kid is his dad always used to say to him, are you having any fun? Yeah. And it was always a confusing piece of advice because it never seemed like my dad was having fun. Right. I was like, what's the moral here?

But I will say, I think the older I get, the more I'm like, yeah, that's everything. And if you're not having fun, like get out. Yeah, but I guess what it is is it's just like, it's just interesting. Sometimes these things are actually the best thing that ever happened to you. And for example, I went out to LA after I didn't book,

and then I ended up having, I got a writing job on the other two, season two, pretty quickly after. And then that experience was a mixed bag. And then as a result of that mixed bag, I learned things about both ways that something can go. Can you say how that was a mixed bag? Yeah, for sure.

I mean, I loved the show, I learned so much about it. I also learned the realities of the way that a writer's room works for the first time. Oh my God, yes. This is actually good for the listeners because I feel like sometimes there's a glamorousness to the writer's rooms of these popular shows. Yeah, lose that.

And it's hard, yeah, lose that. Because I went to school for it. I went to school for television writing, thinking, oh, now I have a degree in this. I did four years at NYU Tisch. I know how to write in a room. You get there, it's so different. They never tell you, like, you're really just there.

And this is such an easy, simple thing to say to a room full of students who are trying to be in a writer's room, to just tell them, you're there to service the showrunner and the creators and their vision, period. And it is what it is, but I just mean like, the industry is so much more social and about navigating egos

and about participating in room culture than you think. And I think the more you work, the more it prepares you for when you do get that opportunity. And I guess what I realized was, sometimes it's good to not get that extremely public, big, high stakes opportunity right out of the gate because you book SNL at 25, 26, guess what?

You're on SNL and to be perceived at 25, 26, 27, I am grateful for my like whatever you want to call it, like ascend in the call it, ascend in the industry, experience in the industry, being really gradual, because I get to pick up and experience things from all these jobs. You know what I mean? Sometimes I get frustrated when it feels like things aren't seen by more people. Or for example, my special, it was on Showtime.

I broke my ass putting it together. It was a project that I really cared about. And then it was on Showtime. I broke my ass putting it together. It was like a project that I really cared about. And then it was on Showtime. We promoted it as much as possible, but just like not that many people have Showtime. So at the end of the year, I remember I got some like nice notices for it. Like Vulture called it number two of its year

right behind Rothaniel. Like I got some like, some of the, again, like maybe it is validation from daddy, whoever daddy was in this circumstance that I wanted, but I also felt like it didn't move the needle, like people didn't really come to me and said they had seen it, like didn't hear from a lot of my peers, et cetera,

to the point where I was just like, again, like that voice in my head was like, it wasn't enough, it wasn't good enough, I could blame it on whatever. But honestly, now I'm like, sure. I haven't had my like Netflix special yet. I haven't been the star of a movie yet that's like hit the box office.

It's okay. Like all these things are adding up to more. It's okay that like, you know, if you eat the big cookie too fast, you're gonna be sick. And now I can tell myself whenever opportunities come up, it's just that. It's an opportunity to grow, succeed, like just because I didn't like work in that season

of the other two and do every single creative project they ever wanted to do ever, after that as a result, it wasn't a failure. It was an experience. You know what's really illustrative of this point too is in my life is my daughter's nine and a half and we recently started showing her SNL. Sure.

Like, and she loves it. Like it's glossy, it's fun, the actors are great, the performances are great. And she doesn't understand some of it, but she understands a lot of it. And we go back season after season after season after season, and Jenny, my wife, had this observation the other day. She goes, you gotta look back at like 2000, 2001, 2002,

at who's hosting the show. It's crazy because you realize that people just disappear. They're literally the biggest, because if you host SNL, you're basically one of the biggest cultural figures at that moment, one of them. And then they're just gone. You know what's crazy? This is crazy.

So when I first moved to NYU, I would wait on the standby line at SNL every weekend. Every weekend. Do you know the first episode I got in and watched? No. Was James Franco and Kings of Leon. Sure. And do you know who I sat next to in the audience who was also just watching it?

Who? Emma Stone. Oh my God, that's crazy. Host and musical guest James Franco and Kings of Leon, I'm sitting next to in the audience, Emma Stone. A future like five time host. And next to in the audience Emma Stone. And you know what? And you know what?

Me and Emma Stone were both probably saying in our heads? Can't wait till one day. One day. ["The Last Culture," by The Capsule Band plays in background.] Okay, so you guys are Las Culturas. I am not Las Culturas. I don't know that much about culture. I don't know that much about pop culture. If you were gonna pinpoint for a beginner

the top three most significant things to chart in the last 25 years of entertainment, what would they be? To chart in the last? Yeah, but not even chart. What are the three most interesting things you think that have happened? In the last 25 years,

I would say Taylor Swift as a pop culture figure is probably one. I think that it's one thing to just throw out there, oh, she's like Michael Jackson, but then understand what you're saying. You know what I mean? Like I think, so I think Taylor Swift is probably- Say more about the Michael Jackson thing,

because I've heard that there's been before too, and I think it's actually very true. Like an all encompassing culture shifting individual, like someone who can decide based on their output, lack thereof, input, lack thereof, input, lack thereof, how things are culturally. Like someone who can affect mass consumption and pop culture trends in an individual way,

that's like Michael Jackson. Like Michael Jackson affected style. You know what I mean? Like across the pop culture spectrum, Michael Jackson was a culture like king. And I do think that Taylor Swift is that. So when we're talking about the past quarter century, I think that you have to talk about her.

I agree, to add on to that, I actually think there's another significant thing, which is from the creator's perspective, she changed the paradigm of ownership of creativity. She basically decided, hey, fuck these people. Fuck these people who gave me a bad deal. Yeah, exactly. And I know we had such and such a contract.

It's not fair, It's predatory. I'm just gonna take it back and good luck to you. And then she did it. And I think honestly, like, I think people will never be the same from it. No, and also just her sheer, the amount that she creates and how readily it's not just consumed, but beloved,

is, I think think its own thing. It's pace setting. So I would say that. I would say Taylor Swift and how she affected pop culture is one. I would say probably the way that streaming affected not just television and the type of television that gets consumed,

but also the fact that it kind of killed movie theaters. That's interesting. I think that that is something that is really... It's going to be really interesting to see what the next act is for TV and film when everything becomes so amorphous. Like these mediums are collapsing and condensing in a way that's really interesting and I think you can say that's happened over the last 25 years. And then I think you have to talk about

the Song of Ice and Fire that is Barack Obama and Donald Trump. Interesting. Yeah. And culturally. Moment of silence. What those were speaking to in terms of like people that felt like they had been unheard

and then were emboldened and then people that felt like they were unheard. It's really interesting. Yeah, because also like they're both stars. And continue to be. That's when you realize culture now, culture trickles down to politics now. It's like, it's kind of, it's,

and it's maybe always been like that. Well, it's terrifying, it's terrifying, I don't know. But that's, I think, like a real story about where we are as a culture and a country. And I think it's like, you know, it is cyclical and it happens. I mean, you see people comparing, you know, the 60s into the 70s into the 80s and to kind of what it's felt like over the past 25 years in our culture. It's just like,

it feels like we got like a very like liberal sort of like culture. And now it feels like we're becoming very liberal sort of culture, and now it feels like we're becoming a lot more conservative again. And suddenly it's like, well, let's make smart decisions. Trump, whatever that fucking means to people. But it's just, I'm not excited about living in the 80s again. Although I will say, when I'm touring,

and I'm sure you find this when you're touring, it's like you go to Asheville, North Carolina, and Charleston, South Carolina. I mean, these are the places I went in December. It's like, it's all liberal. All the cities in the red states are very liberal. Right, you're right. Atlanta and Philly for me felt like they were,

even if during the ticket sales process, I had been concerned about them, when I got there, I was like, I'm really happy that I came. That's how I felt about my Southern run in December. I was like, these shows are some of the best of the whole tour. Totally. Totally. My Philly show was like unforgettable. It felt amazing.

Oh my God. I can't believe that's a red state. It is a red state. I was like, I remember looking at my list, I was like, well I only perform in one red state, right? No. When you said Philly, I'm like, well that's a flip. No, it's a fucking red state. It's a thing to be red.

Wow, wow, okay. On No Good Deed, you play a real estate agent. When you're acting on a show like that, what do you like in directors? Oh man, well Liz Feldman who created the show also did Dead to Me, and Silver Tree who's directing the show, she's amazing. And what I loved about them was

they really knew what they wanted, and I think that they did a lot of the work in casting in terms of what people were gonna bring. so they knew that they had all the elements so that when we got to set there was always always Liz called it a fun run at the end of it and I get why that can't always happen on sets now understanding and like I said having all these experiences where you actually learn how it works right sometimes you just have to fucking get the shot and move on and thank you for employing me

and I'll see you later. But when you have the opportunity to actually play your character, that is really a fun opportunity that I like to get. And so a lot of the stuff that's in the show is stuff that I improvised during those fun runs or found during a blocking where I felt like I could throw something out.

And it's just that communication with someone who's also a real comedian, she's like a real comedian, and getting the opportunity for it to feel fun when you're doing it, and also the decisive way they move on. You know what I mean? It's not moving on and you can tell they still have a note.

It's like, well, you're moving on and you have a note and I feel like I didn't do it either. And that has happened to me a couple times where I'm like, well, fuck, because then you take it home with you. Oh, it's the worst. Whereas someone who's really instilled in you that you're the right person to play this

and definitively moves on when they feel like they're done, great. Now I feel like I did my job as opposed to, did anyone do theirs? Yeah, you do need a captain of the team who's like, we got it, this is it, we got it. But that's another thing you don't realize, is like, good got it. But that's another thing you don't realize is like,

good leadership is not common. Yeah, yeah. I know what you mean. Good leadership is not common. Yeah, and when you work with someone who's a good leader, try to keep that job. You're like, thank God. You're like, oh my God, it's possible?

What are you writing right now? What does the blank page look like for you right now? So right now, it's funny. I have a couple things that I have to do, but then there's these things that I really wanna do, which are nipping. And I find that the want to do's are more in the music space where I've been in

for the past like month and a half and preparing for my tour and doing my tour and like connecting with my audiences in that way. And I think it took me a really long time to understand that my process just is I write up on my feet and I'll like voice memo when I walk and I'm listening to music or I'll give myself like just little notes.

Like I'm just like a scribbler and I write a lot in piecemeal and then it comes together later. I'm not someone who packs up his laptop for the coffee shop, opens it up, connects to the wifi and you know what I mean? Like it doesn't work for me like that. So now that I understand my process, I just have to figure out a way to connect that

to the assignments I have. Well, that's what Sedaris was saying the other day on this podcast is like, essentially everything is observation. Yeah. And it's like, you're saying, if that's when you're walking around and you jot it in your notepad or on your phone,

that's where it happens. A lot of times with me, it's, I will sort of catalog how I'm feeling and I'll just allow myself to talk to myself about how I'm feeling. And then I'll go back later and make fun of that. So there was a song on my album called Everything You Want. I did it with the band Muna.

Yes, love that. Thank you. And so I was feeling so sad after a breakup, like so devastated, that it was comical. Like I would find like angry scribbles on the back of checks around my apartment, like, and just laughing, because I'm like, where the fuck did that come from? Like, who is this crazy person?

It's like, it's like that, but like the red string emotionally. For sure. And ultimately one day I said to myself, I'm gonna do a nice exercise where I wish him things for Christmas. And then I started writing and I realized I couldn't think of anything.

And I was like, that's the bit. The fact that this relationship that was so important to you is not something you can actually wrap your head around. There it is. So it's like almost like in the process, I interrogated myself and less like, I'm gonna sit down and write this thing. Like for example, the last gift this person ever gave me

was a gold chain and I hung on to it for so long. And then one day I was looking at it and I was like, that's it, I'm taking it, I'm throwing it in the fucking river. So I walk over to the river to throw this gold chain in the river. And then I think to myself, what if a fish chokes on it? Oh my God. I was like, I can't be responsible. You can't do it, yeah. I can't litter. I'm not gonna throw this in the water.

Like I'm from Long Island, like I don't wanna damage my seas. Like, and then I started to laugh because I was like, you're still beating yourself up in connection to this person. And I was like, just throw it in the garbage. So I threw it in the garbage, but there was something funny about like doing this dramatic thing. And then the comedian part something funny about like, doing this dramatic thing, and then the comedian part of you being like,

babe, this is an unusual thing. You can't do it. But I had to do it on my feet. You know what I mean? I had to do it in process, so that I could then interrogate myself. I wouldn't have thought about it sitting at a computer. This is why I always say to people who are writers,

I'm like, write down what you're saddest about or angriest about. Yeah. Because that's the stuff that when you come back to it later is the most ripe. Yeah, but I didn't discover that part of myself as a creator until much later because I'm from the world of sketch

and it's so, because I was like the director of Hammer Cats and like very strident about coming in with a lot of stuff. Like I was just thinking constantly about sketch scenarios. Like what could a nurse do? What could a lawyer say? And I ran out of gas on that, kind of just in time. Because I got all that out of my system. Like I have this song on my album called Lube for the Sleigh

about how Santa, in order to put all the gifts in his big bag, has to lube up the gifts so he can fit them all in the bag, and no one asks why Santa has so much lube. I'm like, that is such a creation of me at 26, who's thinking about like abject comedy scenarios like that, but now I'm sort of more interrogating my emotions to find my comedy.

And I think that's like a growing up a little bit, but it is harder. Yeah, yeah. Okay, slow round. This is a slow round. What's a song that makes you cry? A song that makes you cry? A song that makes me cry.

There's a song from The Land Before Time, the dinosaur movie. It goes, if we hold on together. It's just really beautiful. And there's the last part of it goes, Dream see us through to forever. And then, I don't know the words,

but the melody is, Na na, na na na na. It's just so beautiful. And I don't know why that's the song that I'm thinking of, but movie scores. Movie scores make me cry. Like, have you ever seen the movie Big Fish? Yeah. Sometimes I'll just listen to like...

Beautiful score. Yeah, film scores get me. Like the Forrest Gump love theme. Mm-hmm. Like with, honestly, movie scores. E.T. Yeah. Like sometimes I'll just go in my room

and I'll just run around listening to ET. There's nothing like John Williams movie scores. What is the best piece of advice someone's giving you that you used? This is so funny. I went to a screen actor skilled screening of Zero Dark Thirty with Jessica Chastain. And someone raised their hand and was like,

what's one piece of advice you would give a young actor? And I'll never forget what she said. And I applied it and I do think it worked. She said, you know, when I was a bartender, which I was for many years, whenever I was busy, whatever, I did one thing every single day, big or small, that reminded me that I was an actor. One thing.

Whether it was send an email, whether it was rehearse a whole scene, whether it was send an email, whether it was rehearse a whole scene, whether it was go on audition, whether it was just like anything, one thing big or small every single day to remind yourself, she said why I'm an actor, I would say remind yourself who you are. So I remember from that day on,

I just did, I would never go to bed without at least doing one thing that reminded me who I wanted to be in life. So here's the thing I wrote down the other day, which is I realized the other day that my wife had been using my closet as garbage for about 16 years. Because I saw there was a stick with a nail coming out of it and like a beige tarp and some old stuffed animals. Yeah. It was like the weirdest serial killer starter kit because they kill you with the nails

and then they cover the body with the tarp and then they throw you off the trail with the stuffed animals. Sure. I said to Jen, I go, do you know where these came from? And she said, I put them there. Very serial killer. And I said, why, I go, do you know where these came from? And she said, I put them there. Very serial killer. And I said, why did you put them there?

And she said, I didn't think you'd notice. And it's true. And she goes, I knew this day would come. I thought that was so funny. I knew this day would come. I think this is a setup for your wife's serial killer behavior. You need to start looking at the cabinet.

You need to look all over the house. This is a long legs two that I want to see. This is an insane entire... So in 2025, I'm going to put all of my garbage in my wife's closet. I know that might sound like a sexual innuendo, and it is, but it also isn't. It's both.

I like that junk is now garbage. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, my junk is now my garbage. Yeah, so that was like the first bit that I've written in the new year. You have a pretty fully formed idea there. It's all right. I mean, it's like, it's literally something that happened.

Were you then able to look at your closet and be like, I understand why she'd think that, like, it's literally something that happened. I was like- Were you then able to look at your closet and be like, I understand why she'd think that, like, AKA this shirt is not great. Well, no, and it spoke to like a level of kind of what you were saying earlier of like, Jessica Chastain, like remind yourself of like who you are, what you're doing. Like that was my moment of like, I'm garbage.

My area is garbage for this person. Was it humbling or motivating? It was humbling. It was humbling or motivating? It was humbling. It was humbling and motivating. Yeah. It was both of the things. Yeah. But it was definitely,

and maybe that's where the bit goes. Maybe the bit goes into kind of a larger identity, like wait, what am I doing kind of thing? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because it is weird. Like I'm not even exaggerating. It's like a piece of wood with nails in it is like on my floor.

And I'm like, I haven't even noticed this. Like, what am I doing? Also it's like, why does she want to keep that? I don't know. I think honestly- She's planning to kill you. I think sometimes when you cohabitate, it's just like, where does the junk

that no one understands go? Isn't it interesting, like sometimes you'll, whether you're in a rush or thinking absentmindedly, where you'll put something. Oh, absolutely. Do you hide things on yourself a lot? I do. No, but I don't hide stuff as much as like,

I'll be in a hotel room on the road and it's like, I have a muffin and it's like that thing's going down the toilet because it's like there's nowhere I will not eat that fucking muffin. Really? Oh my God. Yeah, because it's like,

there's certain things like muffins, cake, things like that. It's like, there's no way that thing makes it through the night. No. There's no way. It could be fucking 11 o'clock at night and I'm going, I'm gonna wake up at 1.30, I'm gonna wake up at 6 a.m.

I'm gonna eat that fucking muffin. And you don't want to. No, and I don't wanna eat it. No, that's the thing. I just know I shouldn't really have it. I've eaten too much. And then I just flush down the toilet. See, my problem is,

I have so much self-control all day. I'm like, I'm doing great, I'm eating well. I have that horrible gay guy thing of like, I'll do intermittent fasting. Or like, I'll wait till after I work out to eat. Like sometimes I do that thing where it's like I speak to myself in that abusive way that a modern gay man does where it's like,

we have to look like this and do this. And then I smoke weed at night. And then you eat crazy. Checkers, Wendy's. Can't get more garbage enough. That's my junk, my garbage that I put inside my own body. Oh, of course. I was watching the fit. It's course. I was watching the fit.

It's absurd. I was watching the Golden Globes ads during it. It's like, Wendy. Oh, they know Stoners are watching. They totally know. Yes, they know. It's totally Stoner funny. I'm like, that's not even food.

No, 100%. But they make it look like food. They do this incredible pageantry with like, when a burger, like when a piece of meat that has never set foot in any of these fast food joints, like hits the grill and it sizzles in the juice, I'm like, that is a two pound piece of beef that you wouldn't even know what to do with at McDonald's.

Of course. At the kitchens at McDonald's, no ma'am, sir, or more. And I have to tell you, the way the fries sizzle, it's like, what am I supposed to do? I'm powerless now. And then it arrives and it's like a soppy piece of bread and not as many chicken nuggets as advertised. None of that's food.

Doesn't make any sense. All right, what's the bit you're working on, unless it was the bit that you were talking about earlier? It kind of was that, but I guess, you know what I'm curious to do? Where do I put my code? I'm curious to find a sentence that I said to myself that is so absurd and harmful,

and see what we can do with it. Because remember how I said I'll write something really nasty? Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course. I'm just gonna pick the first, the literal first thing. Okay, so this says, this is vulnerable. This is about the gold chain.

This is the line. I tossed the chain in the water, the gold one that you gave to me. That was the last thing I clung to. Now it belongs to the sea. My God, of course. Of course it does. Like it's belongs to the sea like it's God, of course. Of course it does. Like it's a fucking... Now it belongs to the sea.

Like it's Shakespearean, it's like a Greek tragedy. Now it belongs to the sea. And like here's the thing is it's like, I know myself and this will get funny in a second. But sometimes when it comes to like doing musical comedy, I will sit on the joke for a little bit longer than is comfortable and do a genuine song and then it will come in to the point where sometimes I'm a little bit longer than is comfortable and do a genuine song and then it will come in to the point where sometimes I'm a little bit nervous,

like am I waiting too long? Am I waiting too long? But then I'm always happy I waited long. No, that's a great, what a great specific example of something you put in. You genuinely feel that. You feel that way about the chain that your ex gave you. Because then I have, but what if a fish chokes on the chain and dies?

What if a dolphin or something intelligent suffers and perishes because I had to make this dramatic gesture? Now I'm responsible for the death of the oceans, the death of the seas. I killed the coral reef. It was me. I should know better.

I should not let you make me a killer. And let I might have you off my neck, but I'm still full of regret. There's something there. Well, it's funny because it's like, it also speaks to the fact that like, that the line between comedy and tragedy is a thin line. Right.

It's like, which way do you want to take it? You could take that fully dramatic story, it could be a piece of a play, part of a poem. It could be beautiful. Yeah. Because it's... Title of ep.

Well, because ultimately, it's great stepping out into the working it out universe because it's vivid. Yeah. It's a vivid feeling you felt about a real thing. It was a POV scenario I was really in. And the fact that I was able to do the thing of like, it just reminds me of those times when I'm like, there's something here.

Like your own unusual thing that is specific, it felt like a gold mine, and so I'm working on it. I would just say, like honestly, like I would just free right out on. Yeah. And just extrapolate out on like all the feelings you had on that because that's gonna make, is it gonna be a song, do you think?

Probably, I mean I went all the way to the Coral Reef, so I'm getting real international about it. No, I think it's great. And I think like, yeah, I mean, I think like, the fact that you felt that way, I think is what makes it funny. Yeah, I mean, it's so funny too, because like, sometimes the reason why you have those intense emotions

that would want to go into a joke or a set or a new show, potentially a whole thing or a song or whatever it is, is because you're angry at someone and you don't want them to have the credit. And then all of a sudden they inspired some really cool thing that you wrote and you're like, fuck. Right. And also there could be an ebb and flow with it in relation to a major key part of the song

where it's like, I'm doing great. Yeah, exactly. I mean, in my song, Everything You Want, the whole bridge is me being like, I should go to rehab. Yeah, exactly. I can't remember a thing about this person I spent a long time with. I might have a problem.

Like it's fun when you can, not to, you improv terminology, but like, if that's true, what else is true? Yeah, of course. If that's true, what else is true? I think that's always like, you know, when I'm thinking of, I'm writing my next movie right now and it's like, I think it's true

when I'm writing movie scripts. I think it's true when I'm writing standup. I think it's true when I'm writing stand-up comedy. If this is true, what else is true? It's always a good way to get out of a writer's block or a rut. It's like, just step out, go, if this one else, if this one else, if this one else. And it's like, but yeah, I think that's a really funny

example of like, it's how you felt and also it's absurd. Yeah, it's insane. And, and also it's absurd. Yeah, it's insane. And then the fun part is finding, well for me anyway, the really fun part is finding the genre that attaches to it. Sometimes it's just like, sometimes it's really obvious, and other times it's harder. Like, you know, XYZ joke about whatever

is obviously a country song. like, you know, XYZ, you know, joke about whatever is obviously a country song. You know, this is obviously like a powerful girl pop anthem. This is obviously that. And sometimes it's harder, but that can be fun. Also, there's a version of it, because it's so kind of like sad and this, it feels like a ballad. It's dismissive and all that kind of stuff.

Like the idea of at the end of the song that like he calls or something. I know. And you entirely flipped. And you're like, but I love him. Yeah, I know. You know what I mean? Like, which I think is always kind of a fun way

to experiment with, which is like what if the opposite? I mean, I do, I used to be the king of reversals at the end of my sketches. Totally. Like all my friends were like, there's another reversal from that. I'm like, do I do that a lot? But they were fun, I liked them. It's not always the right choice,

but it's always like, you know the Byron Katie, like is it true, is it definitely true, what if it weren't true? And then she goes, what if the opposite were true? And in comedy, I think that's a great lesson too. Yes, always. What if the opposite were true? Then how do, I think that's a great lesson too. What if the opposite were true? Then how do you feel? Then all of a sudden that becomes, oh yeah, fuck that.

Because it's always funny to have realized that the person on stage has put a lot of effort and energy into something that ultimately didn't matter. So that was a misunderstanding. And it's so vulnerable because you literally put your heart on the stage and then also... And just forget I just said that. Exactly. Especially when...

Like for me anyway, I feel like I often portray a more powerful character on stage than I am in real life. Sure. And so to sometimes like have that at the end is like... It's fun for me and for the audience, I think. I think it's great. The final thing we do is working out for a cause. Is there a nonprofit that you like to support? We will contribute to them and then link to them

in the show notes, encourage listeners. Yeah, so it was actually a big part of my development as a performer as well. When I was in my early 20s, I joined an organization called Story Pirates. I'm sure that you're familiar with them. Oh yeah, great. Yeah, they're the best.

And now they're Story Pirates. I'm sure that you're familiar with them. They're great. Yeah, they're the best. And now they're Story Pirates change makers. When I was coming up in my twenties, they were a really amazing group of, you know, actors, writers, improvisers, dancers, singers, et cetera, just like New York theater people and comedians who would go to elementary schools and take the stories written by kids. And then they would surprise the kids by going back and performing those stories for them.

It was the first time that a lot of these kids had thought about the fact that they could write a story that would be performed. Sure. Just always was very moved by the things I saw being a part of that company. And I know they have a podcast now and they're still an incredible, very vital organization. And I guess what I'm most passionate about is encouraging kids through arts now. Because I think it just activates a different part of the brain.

So I really, I always push people towards that organization because they're good people, they do great things. StoryPirates.com. I love Story Pirates. I did a couple of benefits. I think I remember that, actually. Yeah, that's why when I was telling you, I was like, I think he'll know this.

No, I think Story Pirates is amazing. And like, Kristen Schaal did it. Totally. There's a lot of legends who came through Story Pirates. Bowen and I used to go, we would do shows at like 6.30 in the morning, we'd get on like a train to like some far out Connecticut or Jersey thing, and we'd perform for these kids,

and we would do like little improv shows. The kids would shout out suggestions, and we'd put on different wigs quickly backstage, and all of a sudden you come out and you were a king, and it was, blew their minds, because they had just said they wanted a king, and all of a sudden there's a king. Oh my God.

Like it was, it's just cool to watch. It's too good. And to watch them get smacked in the head with that idea that, oh my God, I can create something. Oh my God. Which is so, it feels like, you know, silly to just put it that simply, but that's how simple it was.

That's how simple it was. It was these kids finally being empowered in their creativity and imagination. And that to me is like, you could see like a formative moment happening. And that is so special. Matt, this has been the best. I love this.

I'm so excited to come here. All right, thanks for doing that. Are you kidding me? Of course. Working it out, cause it's not done. Are you kidding me? Of course. Working it out, cause it's not done. We're working it out, cause there's no... That's gonna do it for another episode of Working It Out.

You can follow Matt Rogers on Instagram, at Matt Rogers though, that's T-H-O. You can watch Matt in No Good Deed, along with Ray Romano and Lisa Kudrow on Netflix, and check out Matt's amazing comedy special, Have You Heard of Christmas? On Showtime. Please consider donating to the relief efforts in Los Angeles. You can watch the full video of this episode on our YouTube channel

at Mike Birbiglia. Check that out and subscribe. We are posting more and more videos. Check out birbigs.com to sign up for the mailing list and to be the first to know about my upcoming shows. Our producers of Working It Out are myself along with Peter Salomon, Joseph Berbiglia, and Mabel Lewis. Associate producer Gary Simons.

Sound mix by Shub Saren. Supervising engineer Kate Belinsky. Special thanks to Jack Antonoff and Bleachers for their music. Special thanks to my wife, the poet J. Hope Stein and our daughter Uta who built the original Radio Fort made of pillows. Thanks most of all to you who are listening. If you're enjoying it, rate and review us on Apple Podcasts. It helps other people find the show.

And if you're new to the podcast and you enjoyed this episode, we have almost 160 other episodes that we've done. They're not behind a paywall, they're free, right now! We've had Roy Wood Jr., We've had Stephen Colbert. We've had Maria Bamford and Alana Glazer. So many great ones. Check out our back catalog and comment on Apple Podcasts, which is your favorite. That is so helpful.

Thanks most of all to you who are listening. Tell your friends. Tell your enemies. Tell yourself. Remember Matt's Jessica Chastain advice, if you if you're an actor do one thing every day to remind yourself you're an actor. If you're a creative person do one thing that reminds yourself of that. Maybe it's listening to this podcast, I don't want to assume, but I will say a bunch of folks out of my tour have said that that's their experience of the show. It's sort of sometimes sparks inspiration

and I'm thrilled to hear that. All of us who work on the show, we love to hear that. We appreciate you so much. Thanks everybody for listening. We're working it out. We'll see you next time.