Mike Birbiglia's Working It Out - 161. Nathan Lane Returns: The Safest Thing You Can Do Is Take a Risk

Episode Date: February 24, 2025

This week, the great Nathan Lane returns to Working it Out. Nathan recounts moments from his legendary career — discussing what it was like to work with Mike Nichols, Elaine May, and Robin Williams. He shares what he likes most in a director, who he’s jealous of, and what he remembers of twenty-something year old Mike. Plus, an incredible story about working with Joaquin Phoenix on the film Beau is Afraid. Nathan’s new highly-anticipated series, Mid-Century Modern, drops March 28 on Hulu.Please consider donating to: Broadway Cares/Equity Fights Aids

Who is someone you're jealous of? Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha That is the voice of the great Nathan Lane. Nathan Lane returns, but this time to the studio. This is as excited as I have been, and nervous for that matter. Even though Nathan's my friend for many, many years, I'm just in awe of his talent. You might know he presented my very first off-Broadway show, Sleepwalk, with me in 2008. He has been a huge guiding light in my career and in my life, and one of the great American actors. He is in a new series called Mid-Century Modern

that comes out on Hulu March 28th. I am thrilled about it. We talk about that today. We talk about all kinds of acting roles he's done over the years, and man, does he have great stories. I just love, love, love this episode. By the way, thanks to everyone who has come out

to my final shows, leading up to six shows at the Beacon Theater. I've been working recently with my director, Seth Barish, and our set designer, Beowulf Barrett, who a brilliant set designer, did Old Man in the Pool, and the new one, and actually all my shows are lighting designer, Aaron Copp. We just have a great artistic team for this show

at the Beacon Six shows, March 16 through 22. Thanks to everybody who came out in Northampton and Burlington. I'm doing a few shows in Los Angeles at Largo and I appreciate it so much. I love this chat with Nathan today. We talk about Robin Williams, we talk about the Birdcage and Mike Nichols

and a film, two films that he was in that I love. One is Bo Is Afraid and one is Dix the Musical. If you haven't seen those, I highly recommend them. Bo Is Afraid is starring Joaquin Phoenix. It's actually one of my favorite movies in years and Dix the Musical is an absolute riot. So I recommend those as well as mid century modern. Enjoy my chat with the great Nathan Lane.

Last time I saw you, you were making fun of me because when we were out to dinner with your husband Devlin and my wife Jenny, because you said that I'm friends with everyone who's on my podcast. And you were like, how many more friends do you have? How do you know everyone so well? Well, you do. Well, you've been doing comedy a long time, so you build a large Rolodex of friends. You know what it is though, I was thinking about it.

Because it's, I think because comedians, we wait back to back at the comedy clubs, there's a lineup of five or six people, and so you're just waiting upstairs. So you just talk to me all, but you know everybody. I don't know everybody, but I did the Conan, you know, Needs a Friend podcast, and the whole notion of friendship and,

or a best friend, I find interesting because I think, you know, I mean, I always think my best friend is Devlin, my husband. But that, you know, when I was a kid, you know, having a best friend and I don't think I ever had a best friend. And then one time I thought I had a best friend and I found out I really wasn't, it was somebody else. Oh, right.

Yeah, I thought I had gotten the part and then they told me then, no, they went another way. So it's interesting, the best friend. Yeah. Who's your like, like Matthew Broderick's best friend, is the playwright Kenny Lonergan. Oh, that's right, yeah.

You know, from childhood. Yeah. And that I sort of slightly envy that, you know, that, that kind of. I envy it too. from childhood. I feel like I do know you. I feel like I can call you, which is a thing that you extend to yourself in that way. It makes it feel like, oh, I could always call you if I was in a jam or in trouble. But I think the gray area of friendship as a grownup is,

when should you call someone? Versus like, can you call? You fall in and you can't get up. Yeah, well that's the only instance I can think of? Well, you fall in and you can't get up. Yeah, yeah, well, that's the only instance I can think of for sure that you can. You know, if you wanna talk through something or just check in and tell someone you love them. Yeah, do I call you enough?

No. Should I call more often? Well, I don't wanna, don't be a pest. Okay. But no, I'm kidding. You know, you're a busy guy. I'm occasionally busy. You're not occasionally busy.

So you're always busy. You work more than any actor I know. That's not true. You're in everything. No, who did I just see? Oh yeah, I was watching, John Lithgow. I saw him and I went, this guy is in everything. But no, I'm always happy to hear from someone

you care about and love and wanna, it's no, no. I don't think, I'm not, you know, I don't have a clicker going, he hasn't clicker going, he only called me three times this month. Right. If he started calling me a lot, I'd be worried. I think something's gone horribly wrong. Right, right, right. He's calling me for advice.

You were at SNL 50, you performed in John Mulaney's musical, which was hilarious. Were you, so you see a lot of people there. You see probably a lot of friends. Some, but yeah, the most intimidating room I have ever been in. Outrageous. And I've been to the Oscars and big events,

but this was something. Did it stress you out? Sure, look, I'm getting stressed just the memory of it. I was going as a guest. Yeah, because you've hosted the show. I hosted in 1997, I was hot for 20 minutes. And I was asked to host. I'm a member of the one timers club,

and I gotta say, there's more of us than the five timers, so we could have a rally and maybe go to- Maybe win the popular vote? Go to number two. So it came up, look, it was an incredible two days of the rehearsing of it. It was only the kindness of John Mulaney saying,

I'd like Nathan to be in the sketch and do this little cameo. And so I was like, oh, well, it'll be nerve wracking, but how, I was so honored to be asked and what a historic night that will be. And so I, you know, but just, it was like, I said to somebody, it was like, you know, walking into the television set

and seeing all these people from past and present casts and just, and all of the other famous people over there and just being able to say how much you've loved them and what they've done and how they've made you laugh or however they've touched you. And yeah, it was astonishing. Is there anyone you get intimidated by in a room like that? I'm very starstruck and I'm very, very...

I can't believe this for a second. No one's buying it. No one's buying this. Well, it's shocking when you meet somebody like Leslie Jones. I'm very, very nervous. Well, it's shocking when you meet somebody like Leslie Jones. I've always wanted to meet Leslie Jones. I think she's hilarious. She just kills me. And there she was. She was standing there.

And I finally, I had seen her like at the rehearsal, but I get too nervous. And then there she was. And I said, oh, I have to say how much I love you. And she went crazy. I wouldn't think I would be on Leslie Jones's list. Yeah. And yet-

I would, but go ahead. She was totally, it was just, it was such a pleasure. You know, Lady Gaga were walking out, Devlin and I, and Lady Gaga turned to me and said, oh, I love you. And I was like, oh my God, it's Lady Gaga. I don't know. That's wild.

I love you too. It was a lot of that. Yeah, an unforgettable couple of days. And I was just thrilled to be a small part of it. You say that you get intimidated by people, but I just don't believe it somehow. I feel like I, it strains credibility. I don't know, it's something, it goes back to my mother.

It's like, I'm not worthy. I don't belong here and they're gonna find me out, kind of sad thing. There is vestiges of it. You try to deal with those feelings, but yeah, it's intimidating. Did your mom see you get successful? Yes, yeah, sure.

Was that satisfying? Yeah, I mean, with her, she was bipolar. And so the notion of trying to make her happy, she had not had a happy life. And so in those later years, just wanting, you're saying, what can I do for you? How can I, you're trying to make her life better. And there was very little you could that, would do that because essentially, all she really ever wanted was for all of us to be together, living together.

Yeah, sure. The whole, me and my two brothers, that's really all she wanted. And you know, it's that thing, I remember seeing this in a Jules Fieffer play, Grown Ups, where you would be there and she would say, when am I gonna see you again? And you would go, I'm here, look, I'm here right now.

You're seeing me now. I relate to that so much. That's my dad. Yeah. You visit and then you're leaving and he said we should spend time together sometime. No, this is, we're here. This is what we're doing.

Right. And yeah, you know, I have a, there's a memory of me leaving one time, visiting her and she just, she grabbed my hand and she squeezed it and she said, I hate to see you go. That's so beautiful. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. You know, and, but yeah, I mean, I think that my success was very meaningful for her and she was very proud of that. And yeah. And yeah. She saw you become Nathan Lane from JoWayne. That's right.

Did she like that? Well, when she would call me Nathan, it was like there were quotation marks around it. Nathan. Nathan. But most of the time she called me Jo. And you did it for Actor's Equity basically, because there already was a Jo Lane. Yeah, a Jo Lane.

I remember years later, Actors' Equity couldn't, he contacted me to say, you could have the name now. And I said, well, it's a little late for me to go from, you know, I'm not Prince. I got the man formally known as Nathan Lane, now Joe. So no, it wasn't a good career move, but yeah, no, there was already a Joseph Lane. Did you think of, was it spur of the moment

when you were signing up for Actors' Equity that you came up with Nathan or were you thinking about it for a bit? No, I went to join, I was eligible to join, and then that's when they told me. And it was sort of like, it was slapped in the face. I couldn't be Joseph Lane. And I guess I look stricken and the woman said,

it's okay, take your time. You think about it, come back. And I said, but I said, no, no, just give me a couple of minutes. And I went and I sat down and it's only because I had done, I had been working in non equity theater and I'd done a lot of shows and plays and musicals. And I had played at age 19, I played Benjamin Franklin

in 1776 in a summer stock, and then I had played Nathan Detroit in a dinner theater production of Guys and Dolls. And I said, I'll either be Benjamin or Nathan Lane. And then I thought Nathan Lane had a better rhythm. And I went over and said, I'll be Nathan Lane. Does it feel like you now? Yes, it does. It does.

Joe Lane feels like a long time ago. Yeah. But believe me, Nathan had lots of problems too. What's it like? It was some, the magical ice cream suit now that I'm Nathan Lane, the magical ice cream suit now that I'm Nathan Lane. The magical ice cream suit. Oh gosh.

So one of the things that I like that you did, you did two movies that were far out that I loved in the same year, Bo Was Afraid and Dick's the Musical. It doesn't get more far out than that. They're both so far out. Two of my favorite movies in a long time. And you're fantastic in both of them.

Oh, thank you. And I feel like, you know, it says a lot, I think about an actor. There was a New York Times piece, this guy who was the nicest guy, very indebted to him, Kyle Buchanan, wrote this piece because of those two films. Oh yeah.

And the title said, Hollywood finally figures out what to do with Nathan Lane. Oh, that's interesting. Yeah, and I just like to say, not really. But it was fun for a minute. It's interesting though, because there's very few actors, period,

where you go, I'll see whatever they do. I feel like it's almost like a bygone era. And I feel like you have that. I think you have an unbelievable talent, not just for being a tremendous actor, but choosing projects that are pretty far out. I mean, how do you decide? It's not like I get a lot of choices.

You know, that came up. It's again the strange thing. Bo is afraid came up and I knew the name Ari Aster. I had not seen, at that point, I had not seen Hereditary or Mid... What are they? How do they pronounce it? Oh yeah, Midsommar?

Yeah, Midsommar. Yeah, Midsommar. I hadn't seen them, but I knew that he had been acclaimed and that he was this new talent that people were talking about. And so I did watch the films and they were incredible. And then I was sent the script and I'm reading it and I'm thinking, oh, this must have been a mushrooms

when he wrote this or something. This is crazy. Oh yeah. But originally it was like a fake title, but it was called Disappointment Boulevard. I like that. And so I said to my agents, well, this is, it's hard to make sense of this.

But I'm happy to talk to him. And he had written me this beautiful note and said, this is, you're my first choice for this part. And I knew Joaquin Phoenix was doing it. And I think he's one of our greatest actors in film. So we had a great talk, and then I said, yeah, sure. And it was just kind of figuring out the tone of that, and that was interesting, beginning that,

shooting that stuff and finding our way. And I remember you came back, cause I saw you after you filmed it and you were basically like, very strange movie, we'll see how it comes out. But you loved Joaquin. Oh, I loved Joaquin. I loved him, and. I loved him. I, you know, and I was, Ari, I loved working

with Joaquin is just, he would, I remember at one point Ari just said to me, he's not going to say the lines that are there. So just your objective is to keep him in your house and just say whatever you need to get him to stay in your house. And he said, and if you can work in a couple of lines that I wrote, that would be great. Oh, that's amazing. And I said, sure, I can do that. Is he like, is it, oh, okay, that's why I think people

find him challenging sometimes to work with Joaquin, is that he, like you're saying, doesn't necessarily say the lines. We shot the first day with him, myself and Amy Ryan, who is a very old friend of mine, who is a brilliant actress. This was the first time we finally got to work together playing husband and wife, so that felt great.

And, but the first, we shot for three hours in this, you know, our teenage daughter's bedroom with stuffed animals and boy in this, you know, our teenage daughter's bedroom with stuffed animals and boy band posters, you know. And Joaquin was like, you know, and this is the setup for our characters, but he's playing the truth of, I've been in an accident and he's like

Olivia de Havilland in Caged. And so we shot for three hours and I thought, well, we could barely, but we could barely get our lines in. Yeah. And then I thought, I don't know about that. And then, so I texted Ari, it was at lunchtime, I texted her and I said, hey, it's your movie. You can do whatever you want.

But you know, when I read this, it seemed to be darkly funny. And this is the introduction to our characters. And I couldn't get any of the lines in. So I said, you know, that's all I'm gonna say, but you know, whatever you wanna do. So he texted me back and I said, you know, that's all I'm gonna say, but you know, whatever you wanna do. So he texted me back and he said, no, I don't think that went well

and Joaquin is not happy either. And I said, okay. And then we went back. So Joaquin Phoenix, I don't know him. I just, you know, I just admired him from afar. So we said, we're talking, we're talking, you know, now, and we now three hours out the window. Right, nothing like footage that you're probably

not gonna use. Yeah, so now we're back and we're talking about the scene and I finally said, look, Joaquin, we don't know each other, but, and I don't know how to break this to you, but I think this is supposed to be funny. And I said, and he said, listen, you know, we're coming out of 45 minutes of you

in the Kafkaesque opening that's horrifying. And I said, and then everyone should think now you're safe in suburbia with these nice people, but it's something's a little off. And as written, I think what Ari wrote is funny and you're speaking in kind of like, the lines were written, it was like baby talk because we've so heavily medicated him. What this leg here, what, you know, it was like that. Yeah.

So I said, listen, you should, so I tried to give him a bit of business. I said, you know, take one of those stuffed animals and put it under you. And then when you have to make that weird noise, you know, I said, just pull it out and stare at it. Oh my God. And so he started to laugh.

Yeah. And he said started to laugh. Yeah. And he said, oh, I can't do that. I said, so why not? You want an Oscar? Just put your mind to it. So he started laughing, laughing, laughing. So, and then we were like home free. Then everybody loosened up

and we started to play the scene. And then he said to me, I can't look you in the eye or I'm gonna laugh. He said every, because I then, once they, once they put the camera on me, I was, you know, improvising and just saying things to see what reaction I were getting. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And, but he was a delight and he was, you know, he's passionate and committed and you know, as Ari would say, he, you know, he would say, he can only be truthful. And if it doesn't feel real to him, he can't do it. And he was, no, he's a remarkable actor and a total sweetheart and totally not, he's not pretentious, it's about the work and I'm not some big movie star who's won the Academy Award.

It's just how do we make sense of this? And so I just loved that experience. And it was only, it was very brief, but I had a great time. That's a great example of that movies. I feel like a lot of times, you know, you see the director of a movie when an Oscar or the writer or this or that, and they go,

no, no, it was everybody. And that really is. Like it's a very hard thing to describe to people, even like your story about Bo is Afraid. I think it encapsulates that. It's like, you're an actor, you've worked for so long, and you've done a million things, and you're like, hey, just going to throw in my two cents?

Well, I just thought we weren't, I was sort of reminding Ari that this is what you wrote. Yeah, yeah. You know, and we're not, we're going, I don't know where we're going, but it's not, and what you wrote is really good, and it's funny in this very dark way, and we shouldn't be afraid of that.

Do you remember other films or plays over the years where you did that, where you're in it, and you have to remind the principals, like, hey, we were gonna do this, and we should probably do that. It doesn't, well, that doesn't happen often. I can remember, this is the only first thing that came to mind when you said that was,

there was this in the birdcage, the word fag was used a couple of times. And sometimes it was like directly from the old French play. Oh, right, the Cajou Fall. Yeah, it was a punchline. And I had to say, you know, Alexander the Great was a fag. And I finally went to Mike Nichols and said, you know, this makes me a little uncomfortable. Oh my God.

You know, and it just, there's other ways of saying this. Yeah, certainly, yeah. And he was like, you know, yes. He said, and so, you know, and I gave him examples of what it could be and, you know, another way of saying that. And he said, and I said, you know, it's, you know, and it's the only fag in the real fag in the scene.

Yeah. I would rather not say fag. And he said, I understand. And then he said, you know, but this was a job that was like, I was just thrilled to be asked to this party, you know, and he's Mike Nichols. He's Mike Nichols and it's a huge break. Yes, he's like God.

He was in the 90s. So, and he said, but dear boy, could you just do one He's Mike Nichols and it's a huge break. Yes, he's like God. He was in the 90s. And he said, but dear boy, could you just do one as written? Oh my God. As written. And I was like, oh sure, of course that's what's in the movie. Oh my God. And you know, it was weird.

He wouldn't let, you know, Mike Nichols and Elaine May, two of the most sophisticated, most brilliant minds ever. And yet I always felt like they, because they came from another generation where that word was a punchline. And it was allowed and it was okay. And for some reason he wouldn't let go of it. Or he wouldn't let Robin refer to me as his husband.

I was referred to as his wife. He wouldn't let Robin refer to me as his husband. I was referred to as his wife. He wouldn't let him call me my partner. Or, and maybe it was that the notion of, I want this to be a big mainstream hit. And I don't want to offend anybody. But you know, you think then, it's 1995 or six, whenever we make, 95, we were making it. it's 1995 or six, whenever we make 95, we were making it.

You know, it's, this is a game, this is a gay story. You know, when I saw it as a kid, when I had first moved to New York in the late seventies, it was, that movie was playing on the Upper East Side for over a year. MacArthur Fall. It was the most successful foreign film at the time. And I remember seeing it and I thought it was hilarious. And I just thought, oh, it's so subversive.

It's a French farce, but the gay people are the heroes in this. And so, yeah, I mean, look, I'm telling this story, but I have to say that it was a tremendous experience. And Mike and Elaine were incredibly kind to me. But it was a weird, it was a stumbling point that I just, I was like, why are they hanging on to this? This word.

Yeah, that's hard. Is it because they come from another generation? And I don't know, it was awkward for a moment. And then, you know, but in an otherwise great, very happy, joyous experience. I asked Elaine, I met Elaine May recently, and I said to her, just briefly, and I said, I've read in books over the years

about you and Mike Nichols that he would stick to his lines when you did the Broadway two-person show and that you would just make it different every night. She goes, don't believe anything anyone writes unless they were there. Do you feel like anything people have written about you over the years is not quite right? Or people get you wrong ever? All the time.

In what way? I've read interviews where literally I didn't say any of it. Where they obviously thought I can write something better than what he said on my tape recorder. What do you mean that you didn't say any of it? It's true. I mean, I mean, literal, like a paragraph that I did not. I mean, that's outrageous. People characterize you, you know,

I think because, you know, there've been times and I'm like, I am, I know it's at my age, when I'm near death and I'm still shy. Shy doesn't hold up well in my age range. But people can take that as being standoffish or like, well, what's his deal? No, I just totally, or just things attributed to me that I didn't say or do.

What was attributed that you didn't say? Do you remember? I don't know. You have to look up and find some quotes and say... Let me bring in my lawyer. Stuart, get in here. He has all the files. So when you work with these directors, and Mike Nichols and Ari Aster, I mean, you've worked with just Mel Brooks, I mean, you've worked with unbelievable people. What's your favorite quality in a director as an actor?

You know, the best ones usually don't say much. Not that I, and I like direction. I like, you know, hearing thoughts about what's happening. It's a bit of being a father figure, a therapist, and the director is for each person, it's a little different, however they work and what it is they're doing. But it's sort of the Clint Eastwood notion

is he's cast you for a reason. He's not here to teach you how to act or how to play a scene. He assumes you've done your homework. It's a big assumption because not everyone does their homework, but it's an assumption that you're a professional, you're gonna show up on time and know your material

and have a point of view about it. And then only if he feels you've gone off on the wrong path will he say something. It really depends. I mean, I like, I don't, you know, some people don't, I, you know, they don't wanna hear notes or any of that. They just wanna, and they don't wanna even rehearse. And in film, I kind of get that.

They wanna, let's see what happens. We're all looking for that happy accident that's real and was unexpected. That's what you're trying to capture on film. I'm guessing you had that to some extent with Robin Williams on Birdcage. Cause Robin seems like he didn't stick to a script that often. Well, no, no, Robin was very professional.

And, but what we rehearsed, and then Mike had said to us, just, you know, feel free to improvise while we're rehearsing. And then even though he was very protective of Elaine's script, he would usually say he would give us a free take to get it out of our system. And out of that, things came for sure, little moments.

And no, Robin was, I mean, if he left, And out of that, things came for sure, little moments. And no, Robin was, I mean, if, you know, he liked that if he did go somewhere, I would go with him. Yeah. You know, and we would kindred spirits in that way. We were both sort of like needy children who just wanted to please daddy. And he was, but he was, you know, Robin,

you know, he made it a very happy atmosphere and joyous and kept people's energy up and entertained in between takes. Yeah. You know, and he was so, you know, kind and generous and loving and, you know, I can remember doing, I had to, there was a musical number that was eventually cut, but I did a number in the club

and so he had the day off and I remember he came in and I said, what are you doing here? I'm just doing this all day and he said, he said, I wanna be here for you, I wanna support you. Oh. He, you know, he was, you know, he was just an incredible person and I'm lucky that I got to work with him.

Yeah. Yeah, we say, but I only met Robin a few times, but when we did that wounded warrior's benefit at the beacon, he would, all of these soldiers who had been injured and had these severe injuries, he would go around and he would be the Robin Williams that people dreamed of meeting. Which of course in show business,

you never really get that from anybody because they're performing on camera or on stage and then they're human beings. But he was the Robin Williams from the movies for me. Yes, he would do that for you, for people who needed it. He knew that was part of his job. But yeah, I also just remember quiet moments with him. He was a very, such a sensitive soul, so dear,

and easily hurt, and just hurt. Yeah. You know, and just, you know, incredible. And we always sort of, I can't say that we became close friends. We would keep in touch. But we always had that bond of having done that film. Yeah. And it was, you know, it became, it was a success. And it was just a very fond memory for, I think, for everyone involved.

So you did, Bo is Afraid and Dix the Musical in the same year. Yeah. Jenny and I went to Dix the Musical. We were going through a lot of personal stuff at the time that was really challenging with our families. And we went to the theater and saw Dix the Musical. And I don't remember laughing as hard at a movie in the theater as I did at that movie.

And it was such a gift of a movie. It is so insane. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it really is insane. And the guys who made the movie, I mean, you really took a chance on them because they hadn't, to my knowledge, made a feature film. Josh Sharpe and Aaron Jackson, they came from UC Josh Sharp and Aaron Jackson came from UCB. Yeah, they came from UCB.

And there was a whole sort of gay contingent of UCB, Bowen Yang, Matt Rogers. Was Julio Torres we seen? He was just doing standup. But he might've been in the scene, I don't know. Yeah, but no, it was sent and I was like, well, I can't do this, you know? Because your character, just to give context,

your character, I want to say eats ham? No, he has these creatures, he has these pets that are called the Sewer Boys that he obviously found in the sewer. And he keeps them in a cage in his living room and they eat deli meat. And they're these strange, they're like, you know, they have tails and they're these odd, sort of little dragon-like urchin.

They're creepy, they're very creepy, but he loves them and he feeds, they like deli meat and he feeds, so you have to, and he would feed them like bird, maybe like a mother bird. And so I would have to chew up the deli meat and spit it into their mouths. That's what, that was the much talked about scene.

Anyway, yeah, so I was like, I don't know about seeing. Anyway, yeah. So I was like, I don't know about this. And then they said Larry Charles was going to direct it. And I loved Larry Charles. And so I had a Zoom with him. And then I said, look, I was still sort of on the fence. And I said, I need to meet these two young guys and just talk about this.

And so we had this dinner that went on for like four hours and several cosmopolitans later, I said, well, I guess we're making a movie. Well, they were like, you know, the gay sons I never had. And they're brilliant guys. They're really smart and really funny. And, you know, as they always, I think it was Aaron always said,

you know, we're not making this for people to upset people. We're not making it for people who won't like it. We're making it for the people who will like it. Right, oh, that's an interesting way to look at it. Who want this is kind of outrageous. And, you know, and they, look, I admire the audaciousness of this. And especially, well, even more so now,

but at the time it was just, you know, when books are being banned and, you know, you don't say this, don't say gay, don't do that. And I just thought, and they don't care. Well, they clearly don't. They just don't care. Think there is a line. And interestingly, as it.

Because it goes, I don't want to give away where the story goes, but. Well, connecting back to the word fag or fag it. Yeah. There, those folks, you know, it was used in that movie. Bowen Yang played God. That's right. And they all sang a song, we all sang,

I should include myself, we all sang a song. I had nothing to do with it. I was not involved. I was not involved at all. I was nowhere to be seen. We all sang a song called, All Love is Love. This is when the twins decide they, the only person, you know, they realize they love each other

even more profoundly. Yes. And, and, Spoiler alert. And they get married and they sing, they all sing a song called, God sings a song called All Love is Love. And at the end he says, you know, God is saying, I'm everything, I'm black, I'm white, I'm this,

I'm rich, I'm poor, you know, and I'm gay, I'm straight. And they said, you're gay, God is gay. So in the lyrics, as it goes, don't you wanna see the movie now? In the lyrics, we'll turn this into a cult film yet. They sing, all love is love, all love is love, God is a faggot and all love is love. So they're sort of reclaiming the word faggot.

Right. And so I was like, oh, that's, because that word has always made me uncomfortable, but having been called it. So I sort of got what they were doing. And I kind of then, and by the fifth time they sang, oh, God is a fag, and I started laughing. That's what it took.

It took five times. Sometimes it's just repetition that can do it. Anyway, I think they're brilliant and original and I just thought, sure, I wanna be a part of this. It's like when you do Angels in America, which is one of the greatest American plays. It's sort of an epic play. And then you do Dix the musical,

which is this completely a reverent, wild film. Bo is afraid, very experimental. Like what do you see as the through line as an actor in all of those things? Is there a through line of being an actor in all of those things? Well, the through line is you're, you know, you are trying to be truthful with it.

So you're looking for the humanity in it or the heart of it at times. I think it depends on what it is you're doing. And Bo is afraid it was just, I liked that he was this suburban dad who, you know, said things like, what did he keep calling him? My brother. Yes.

You know, who thought he was being hip or, he was sort of this corny dad. And yet there's a moment in it that I really liked when I'm trying to get Joaquin to say something and you see there's something much darker at play, just for a second, you see that. And you look for those kinds of, with a character like that, you're looking for that moment,

the darkness and the light or the humor in the sadness or tragedy. When you're in that scene, where you say you see a glimpse of the kind of darkness of the character, will you say to the director, hey, I'm just trying to... Catch my glimpse of darkness. Will you catch that in this one?

No. No. You just drop it in. I assume someone of the caliber of Ari Aster. Someone's gonna catch it. Who's actually, who's written it. Right. Knows that that might be happening. Do you ever ask for another take for that though?

I'll do as many, I love doing a lot of takes. Do you ever ask for another? Some people don't. Can I have another? You know, it's like, they always talk about De Niro, is not that I'm comparing myself to him. Oh, I heard the comparison. Yeah.

It was in there. Yeah. Oh, Bobby and I go way back. So, but there was, you know, he like uses takes to warm up. Oh. So he'll do a lot. He likes to do a lot, apparently, you know, I've never done a film with him, but.

I think they're talking about Meet the Fockers Four. So there might be a role in that. There might be, finally. Okay, I'm game. Just to say I worked with him. Yeah, I think you, you know, there are people who like, this is it, they got two. If that you, you know, like, I don't know,

I can remember interviews or Morgan Freeman saying, you know, if you need more than two takes then something's wrong or, you know, and I think, oh, I don't know about that. I see, but I come from the theater. I like to rehearse and so there's that part of me, but I understand from a film point of view, it's like, this is it.

It's this is, and then you peek about maybe take three. But I don't know, it can, then there's David Fincher who likes to do 57 takes. And no, Bambach, yeah, yeah. So there's some of these front and on. What you think you're losing your mind. And, you know, it's the old Billy Wilder saying to Tony Curtis and Jack Lemmon, you know, because Marilyn Monroe,

it would just to get one take where she said the right thing or did the right line or whatever it was he wanted. He said to them, you have to be great in every take because whenever she gets it right, that's the one I'm going to use. That is... That's a lot of pressure. That's a lot of pressure. Yeah. Be funny. So you're in a new series called Mid-Century Modern.

It's on Hulu, it's just about to come out. How did you get involved with it? This is all Ryan Murphy, you know, became my guardian angel in my third act. And he called me and said, and just the fact that he called me was shocking. He called me and said, I want to send you a script. It's written by Max Muchnick and David Cohan who created Will and Grace.

He said, I've never done a multicam before, but he said, I read this script and I just, I thought it was hilarious and I loved it. And they've kind of written this character with you in mind. And then I read it and it was hilarious. So I said, yeah, sure. I play a character named Bunny Schneiderman,

who is a very, very wealthy, successful manufacturer of women's bras. And he has a chain of stores across the country called the Bunny Hutch. And he lives in Palm Springs with his mother, Sybil. And it opens at a funeral, a very close friend of his and his other two friends, played by Matt Bomer and Nathan Lee Graham.

And they come back to his house afterward and they're talking and they're having a great time. And he's sort of, he's obviously an older gentleman and kind of lonely at this point in his life. He's never had a great love in his life. And he says, why can't this be the rest of our lives? He lives in this big house and one is an airline, Matt plays an airline steward named Jerry

and Nathan Lee Graham plays a man named Arthur Broussard, who comes from the world of fashion and a wind tour has just fired him for being too opinionated. And so they eventually do. And that's sort of where the series goes. And Jimmy Burroughs, the legendary Jimmy Burroughs directed all 10 episodes.

That's astonishing to me. It all happened very fast. We did a pilot and then almost immediately, a few months later, we were doing the first season. Just to put this in context for people, but that's Ryan Murphy. Jim Burroughs. Jimmy Burroughs.

He's the same Jim Burroughs who did Cheers. Cheers co-created Cheers, directed a lot of, I think he directed a lot. He directed all of Will and Grace, friends, pilot. I mean, just a legend of legends. He goes back to the Mary Tyler Moore show. Yeah, he did Mary Tyler Moore. It's been the happiest experience I've had in television.

And he said, do you believe we got this lucky again with this group of people? And he said, I just wanna do this show for the rest of my life. Oh, I got it. And for someone like him, you know, it's so moving and it's just been, the whole thing has been joyous.

Oh. Matt and Nathan Lee and then in the midst of all of this, Linda Laban, who was playing my mother, died, which was a shock and devastating. And she was, Linda was, you know, she was certainly a beloved figure in the theater. And we, I didn't, we weren't like close friends beforehand, but whenever I was, I was just a fan and I would see her

and we would always say, I hope we get to work together someday. So this was very special. And we became very close doing this. And you know, she had been diagnosed with lung cancer. And so she had called me, this is the day after Christmas, and we were supposed to go back in like a week or so

to finish filming and to tell me this. And she said, but they're going to start radiation. They feel like it's still work and I'll be tired, but I'll be able to do that. And I said, look, it's whatever you need to do. And it's just a TV show. Your health is the most important thing, but we'll do whatever we can and don't worry about anything.

And I was able just to say how much I loved her. And then literally like three days later, she said to her husband she wasn't feeling right and they called her doctor and he said, come in. That was there, he's at Cedars. And so they were driving from Malibu to Cedars. And one of the tumors was obstructing her airway. So her breathing had become labored.

And so on the way there, she said to him, you know, I want you to live your life. And he said, oh, I am living my life. She said, you know, I just want you to know if I die, I want you to know how much I love you. And he said, I know, and I love you too. And then her breathing was labored and she lowered the window and her heart stopped and she died.

And yeah, I miss her every day. And it was, she was such a huge part of it and so brilliantly funny, such a brilliant. It seems like in some ways that series seems like such a perfect fit for all that you've been doing your whole career because you have the live studio audience and it's film. Well, my past in the multicam has been dicey to say the least.

And so I've avoided it. And now, you know, to do it with some of the best people who've ever done it, it's a very different experience. But yeah, other than that, it has been just the best experience I've ever had in television and everybody gets along and everybody. But I think we all set out to do that, to make it a place where you feel good about what you're doing.

This is called the slow round. Who is someone you're jealous of? Well, that's not fair to ask someone in show business that. Let me get out my list. Who am I jealous of? Well, let me get out my list. Who am I jealous of? You know, I'm not. I was a little jealous when I heard Lithgow was going to, they've asked them to play Dumbledore

in the Harry Potter series for HBO. I thought, yeah, that's a good gig. That's going to go for a while, no matter what. Even if it stinks, it's gonna go. No, you know, I'm at a point now, I feel like I'm, and people seem to have been concerned over the years about my happiness, but I'm sort of, people have written articles about it.

Anyway, I'm certainly the happiest I've ever been in my personal life and in my professional life. And I'm just very, I feel very lucky. And- The follow-up question is who were you jealous of that you thought of when I asked the question but didn't say? No, I, you know, I honestly, Devlin could probably tell you. He's probably heard me say, mention a name.

But I, you know, it's like, I don't really have that. I mean, there's a part of me that would like, I'm very happy where I am and what I've achieved, but there is a part of me that I wouldn't mind if I had got to have a little more of a career in film. So I don't know, there's this sort of, I think there's this sort of general feeling of me being this, you know, whatever.

It's a general feeling. There's a general feeling that it's like, it's why they, in film, you're going to play somebody's agent, get him. You know, it's that, or there's a, it has to do with some notion of me because I've had also a career in musical theater that I'm, it's big, it's merminesque, it's whatever you want to call it.

And that I think I've shifted that perception. You've completely shifted it because you've played... Over the last decade or so. The difference of the roles you've played in the last two decades is unbelievable. I could give you evidence, Your Honor. I could show you that there is a range. But I think people want to categorize you. They want to put you in a box and they don think people want to categorize you.

They want to put you in a box and they don't want you to get out of the box. Of course. But I was able to dig a hole in the corner of the box and I got out. Oh, I know, I saw. Now I'm in another box down the street. It's that box.

Well, I'm still trying to figure that out. Has your life gone the way you expected it to? Oh, better. Better. Yeah, things like, you know, I have so many things that, you know, was more than you could have hoped for. That just, that was more than you could have hoped for.

But there was this strange, I also had this strange, for all of the fear, I had this strange thing as a kid that I saw it as I somehow knew it was gonna work out. This strange, there's also this part of me, this strange, I don't know if it's even confidence, but just sort of like, like I could see it like a movie. Right. And I would say to myself, well, this is now, I'm in the beginning of the movie and it's, you know, and I'm a starving actor in New York.

Sure. You know, I don't have any money and I'm, I was once so hungry, I stole like a grapefruit from, I went and walked by a Korean market and just, I had no food and I stole like a grapefruit. And I'm not even particularly fond of grapefruits. I guess it was just, it was in reach. You know, and I always thought, yeah, it's gonna work out somehow.

I just know that it's gonna work out. I don't know why I had that feeling, but I did. And then I lucked out and it worked out. What's the best? And that's the name of this show, Working It Out. Working It Out. What's the best piece of advice someone's given you that you used?

The Elaine Mays line is, the safest thing you can do is take a risk. Yeah. I think that's great. You know, just. The safest thing you can do is take a risk. Yeah. I love that.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. All right, so I'm going to work out a couple of jokes that are, I'm doing my performances at the Beacon Theater in a couple weeks. In a couple weeks? Yeah.

Oh. At the last minute. Should I come? Oh my God, I'd be honored. I'd be honored if you came. Of course, if people don't know this, Nathan presented my first show off Broadway, Sleepwalk, with me, and I view it as the inflection point

of my entire life and career. Oh, well, look, it's all you. I just went along for the ride. I vividly remember us standing outside, when I was living in Tribeca, and think we had had dinner, and you were like, you were a little annoyed by the fact that

Meryl Streep was presenting someone off- The Bridgertonal, yeah, yeah. Off Broadway. Yeah, Sarah Jones's solo show. How did she get Meryl Streep to present her? And then you said, you looked at me and it was like a marriage proposal. And you said, would you present me?

And I went, well, I said, well, yeah. How much is it going to cost? You said, nothing. I said, oh, sure, I'll present the hell out of you. Your version of my voice is like I'm a hustler. Nothing. And so the next thing I knew, I was presenting you. Actually, if I'd known it was going to be such a big hit, I would have put money into it.

Yeah, but I really do think of it as like a singular inflection point in my entire life. Well, it was just a great show is what it was, and it was your performance of it. Do you remember when we did The View together? Oh, I remember it. And Joy Behar kept referring to you as Mike Babilia,

which fell somewhere between, you sounded like a celebrity chef or Italian porn star. Mike, and she kept saying, I would say, no, it's Berbiglia. She said, no, it should be Berbilia. Oh God. Yeah, yeah. Oh, I remember that so well. It was a huge moment for me because my mom got to come and my mom loves the view, watches the view every day.

And so she was in the audience and Joy came over and talked to her and she loves Joy, it's her favorite comedian. Sure. And Joy said to my mom, what do you think about your son being a comedian? She goes, I don't know. I don't know what I think about it.

She goes, Joy goes, oh, he's really good at it. And it was oddly, it was a turning point in my relationship with my mom and her understanding of my comedy career, it was like a permission slip from Joy Behar to my mom saying it was okay for me to be a comedian. Wow, Joy Behar. Yeah.

Had that kind of power. Yeah. Wow, well that's something. Yes, no, look, I was proud to be associated with it. It was such a great show. And then you, you know, it was a book. It was a board game. It was, then you made a movie. Made a movie.

And then you did it in claymation. It's unbelievable how much mileage you got out of sleepwalking. Well, here's what I'll say about, but your wisdom in general about a lot of my projects over the years is when I made it into a film, you read the script and you said a thing that stuck with me

and I brought up during the production and in the edit over and over again, which is, you basically said the risk of turning this into a movie is that it starts to feel like a boiler plate independent film, quote unquote, of this really special singular show. And you said you have to take the singularity from the show and figure out how to have it live in the film.

And we did it eventually, but it was very, very hard. But we brought that up over and over and over again, citing you. And I think it's true of all things. I actually think about that in everything I do. Is you can, I think the inclination sometimes, it goes to the thing you were saying about advice of Elaine May, is the safe, you know,

the safest thing you can do is take a risk. It's the same idea. Which is, you shouldn't do what you're in your mind is the independent film of the thing. You do what's sort of in your gut. Right, or do something that's gonna scare you. Do something that's gonna scare you. It's like, I don't know if I can do that,

but that's always a good feeling. This is from, I just got back from Una's winter break. The other night we were on vacation in Florida. And Jen was like, let's go out with Una and swim in the pool. And it was eight o'clock at night, it was dark. And we go out and Una's swimming underwater in this magical moment. And then she swims into the pool wall and scrapes her head and she's okay, she's fine. But the first thing I thought was, I'm so glad it was Jen's idea to go in the pool wall and scrapes her head and bleeds. She's okay, she's fine. But the first thing I thought was,

I'm so glad it was Jen's idea to go in the pool. Because if it were my idea, we'd be talking about this for 20 to 30 years. Since it's her idea, it's like the thing's gonna heal and we'll never talk about it again. Oh, that's funny. Yeah. So it just happened this week

and I just jot it down in my funny. Yeah. So it just happened this week and I just jotted it down in my notebook. Yeah. That's good. I just feel like, yeah. And then I wrote this. Oh, this is something I want to try to get on stage, which is so many of my friends have gotten divorced lately, which has been really hard on me. This is something I want to try to get on stage, which is so many of my friends have gotten divorced lately,

which has been really hard on me. Because when people get divorced, then you have to go back into your own wife and husband and overcompensate and be like, Jim's getting divorced, which is what I would never do, because I am resolute and firm in my conviction to be married. I would never be divorced like Jim, who is a villain. We shall never speak of Jim again.

This is a really half-baked idea. Whenever our friends get divorced, we do a divorce autopsy. They got divorced because they couldn't agree on what it was they were arguing about, and we're not like that, right? Come on, team. Yeah, it's half-baked, it's half-baked.

It's just definitely a free association. But what do you think when people talk about, we have an open relationship or an open marriage? what do you think when people talk about, we have like an open relation or an open marriage. What do I think when people say that? Yeah. I always think, Do you think that? Good luck to you in your life.

Yeah. I'm always like, no judgment, good luck to you in your life. I don't, I respect it. I don't fully buy it. And I'll tell you why. As opposed to getting a divorce. They say we decided to open up our marriage. I've heard that, I've heard that. Yeah, because we are, you know, we were great as a couple,

but we both would like to have sex outside the marriage. Yeah, look, I did a whole show about... Monogamy? To some degree. My girlfriend's boyfriend was all about how I was never going to get married and here's why, here's the seven reasons why and all this stuff. Because Jen and I went through a period where,

before we got married, we were like, oh, okay, we're not exclusive to each other and blah, blah, blah. And I'm just like, good luck with that. We did that, it was a debacle. Every week was so much drama. Every week was like, who's that? Who's that? What's that all about?

Who's that? It's like, what are you, fucking two lives? I don't know, it just feels like, again, no judgment. People listening, whatever, you know, everyone has their own. Just grow up and have an affair. Just cheat and do it well. I just feel like when Jen and I were in this phase of life where that's what we were gonna do,

we were like, it just did, it tactically, it required so much preparation, so much planning, so much clandestine. And honestly, how do you do that without actually lying if you're with the person all the time? If you know that person well enough, you know they're fucking lying. You just know.

You just know in your bones. You're getting angry and it hasn't even happened. Yeah. I'm riled up for comedic purposes. Oh. Hey, I made a living out of that. Yeah. The last thing we do is working out for a cause.

If there's a nonprofit that you like to support, we will contribute to them. We'll link to them in the show notes. Oh, okay. Broadway Cares, Equity Fights AIDS. It's a phenomenal organization. We will contribute to them. We'll link to them in the show notes.

Oh, that's great. Nathan, you are one of the greats of the greats of the greats. And dare I say, I love you and I treasure your friendship. And I love you and I treasure your friendship too. Working it out, because it's not done. We're working it out, because there's no... That's going to do it for another episode of Working It Out. You can watch Nathan Lane on the new series,

Mid-Century Modern, coming soon on Hulu. I'm thrilled to watch that. If you haven't seen them already, watch Dix the Musical and Bo Is Afraid. I love those movies. You can watch the full video of this episode of Working It Out on our YouTube channel, at Mike Birbiglia.

Check that out and subscribe. We are posting more and more videos. Check out birbigs.com and sign up for the mailing list to be the first to know about all of my upcoming shows. We just added one in Halifax after all these years of people asking me to come to Halifax. I've never been there. And I'm on John Mulaney's show there.

He's doing a big, big show. And I think it's, I want to say it's me and Nick Kroll and Fred Armisen are the special guests on that one. Our producers are working It Out are myself, along with Peter Salomon, Joseph Berbiglia, and Mabel Lewis, Associate Producer Gary Simon, Sound Mix by Ben Cruz, Supervising Engineer Kate Balinski,

special thanks to Jack Anzanoff and Bleachers for their music, special thanks to my wife, the poet J. Hope Stein, and as always, our daughter Una, who built the original radio for It Made of Pillows. Thanks most of all to you who are listening. If you enjoy the show, go over to Apple podcasts and rate and review us. You know what's really nice is if you just write down, type in what episode you like

best. We've done at this point, almost 160 episodes. So if you say, Hey, I really like the Kate Berlant episode or the Mateo Lane episode or the Ray Romano episode, people will go, oh, okay, that's a good place to start. And if I'm being completely honest, the way people find out about the show is people like you telling your friends and telling your enemies.

You know, tell Joaquin Phoenix. That guy needs to know. If you ever meet Joaquin Phoenix, you might not, but Nathan Lane did when he worked with him. You can say, hey Joaquin, we don't know each other. I'm not gonna tell you how to do your job as an actor, but I do think you should check out this podcast. It's called Working It Out, where Mike Birbiglia

talks to other creative people, like your co-star Nathan Lane and others. Maybe you can listen in between takes. Thanks everybody, we're Working It Out. We'll see you next time.