Mike Birbiglia's Working It Out - 169. Ira Glass Returns: This American Comedian

Episode Date: May 5, 2025

Ira Glass has appeared on the Working It Out podcast three times before, and usually it’s Mike asking Ira for advice, whether it’s about podcasting or storytelling. But now the tables have turned: Ira recently listened to a stand-up set he performed years ago, he has the itch to try it again, so he’s come to Mike for comedy advice. On this episode, Mike and Ira listen to Ira’s old stand-up set in real time, break down what worked and what didn’t, and brainstorm ideas for Ira’s next set.Please consider donating to your local public radio or television station.

Hey everybody, it's Mike for Biglia. This is a very special episode of Working It Out. Ira Glass, of course, has been a guest on the podcast before. He was episode number one. He was episode number 100. And usually it's me asking Ira for advice. He's given me so much brilliant advice over the years. And now the tables have turned because Ira, he called me a couple weeks ago and he said,

you know, I was listening back to stand-up comedy that I performed about 10 years ago at the Eugene Merman Festival in Brooklyn. And he goes, and it was pretty good. And I was like, I wanna try to do this. I wanna try to get better. So I thought maybe I'd come on your show and we'd talk about, I'll play some of the actual audio for me doing standup and you can critique it and tell me how you think it could be better.

And so that's what we're doing today. I just wanna tell you about a couple shows I'm doing this summer. Obviously, The Good Life is coming out May 26th, whenever it shows up on your Netflix remind me area, just click remind me. So you know, comes out Monday, May 26th. I'm super, super excited how it came out.

I can't wait for you to see it. I'm doing a couple shows this summer in support of John Mulaney. Me and Nick Kroll and Fred Armisen are each doing probably 15 to 20 minute sets at the beginning of John's headlining set. August 7th at the Westville Music Bowl in New Haven, Connecticut.

August 8th at the Bethel Woods Center for the Arts in Bethel, New York. Get tickets at birbigs.com and sign up for the mailing list to know about all upcoming shows. I loved this conversation with Ira Glass today. We've never done this before. We've never listened. Honestly, we never listened to stand-up comedy

in real time on the show and broke it apart. It was really fun to do. I think you'll love it. Enjoy my conversation with the great Ira Glass. So you finally come to me for advice. Well, that's true. I knew it would happen sooner or later. All these years, I've been asking you for advice, getting your wisdom.

Finally, the other day, you texted me, I'm thinking of working on a standup set because I did one 10 years ago on a Lark and then I listened back to it and it was actually pretty good and maybe it could be something. So why don't I come on the podcast and we'll work on a standup set.

Yeah. Okay, so we're gonna maybe play some of your standup and then maybe we'll stop and start with your standup. Because I actually think this is a really, we get a lot of questions and emails from people who listen to this podcast. And I think a lot of times this is what they crave, which is how do you start with nothing or next to nothing

and then build something from it? Well, that's exactly what I'm interested in, right? So like, because I realized that when I did this set, you'll hear there's a thing that had just happened to me that I knew was a funny story. I just knew it was a funny story because I was telling my friends that story. And I was like, this is knew was a funny story. I just knew it was a funny story because I was telling my friends that story. And I was like, this is a totally solid funny story.

And I can imagine how you tell it on stage. And so I did that. And then I just thought of other stories along similar lines that could go with it. What I don't know is if I really wanted to actually, actually make a standup set and put myself into the position that you're in, of I have nothing, so where do I begin?

That's the thing I don't know. And how do I move from a list of like, here's some possible topics to now I'm writing a joke with a structure and it connects to the next joke. That's the thing that I'd like us to talk about. Right. I'm glad that you brought that up in relation to, it's a story you would tell.

Whenever people say to me, I wanna try to do standup, but I don't know where to start. I always say to them, what's a story you tell when you're at a party? Zarna Garg was on the show the other day and like, for years she was like the funniest person at the party kind of thing. And then like her kids were literally like, you have to do this for audiences.

Cause fundamentally it really is standup comedy is a party. It's one person being a little overly talkative. And then a group of people kind of like listening in and being like, oh, okay, this is a good story this person is telling. So I do like that analogy. Okay, so let's play a little bit of it. All right, here we go. Your next act.

This is from the Eugene Merman Comedy Fest. He is the host of this American life. It is such a pleasure that he's here, ladies and gentlemen, Ira Glass. Right, this is a comedy show. I brought along like music just in case like I would start to feel like, oh, is this going on? Because I could always put music under stuff and it would just feel like... It was just all feel more safe and normal. I had this experience on stage one month and a day ago.

One day minus one month and a day ago, one month, one day minus one month, one month from tomorrow. I had this experience on stage that honestly it's haunted me. I feel like I still don't know what to make of it. And I was giving a talk. Usually when I'm on stage, I'm doing public radio events, fundraisers for public radio stations. Okay. I just want to say, okay, right there. Okay, so that thing where I say, I had this experience and I don't know what to make of it.

Now you would do that in a radio story, but really you don't need that for a standup bit. There's no reason that's where that out there is bait. You can just say, I had this experience and go. I agree, I agree. I think qualifying it is only making the audience to think about it too much. Yeah. But on the radio, you want that as bait. So far I like it though. Qualifying it is only making the audience think about it too much.

Yeah. But in the radio, you want that as bait. So far, I like it though. I mean, I like that you call it as a comedy show. You're known not for comedy shows. You're known for being a radio producer and host. And then I think playing music under it seems good. All right, I was standing there with an iPad.

Where did I get my music from? Okay, here we go. Okay. So it's in Brickinridge, Colorado, which is a mountain town. Okay. I had never been there. Are you from there?

No, I love it. You love it though. Yeah. It's like a big place for outdoorsy people and there's like an incredibly beautiful day and it's super outdoorsy. And at one point I was on stage and it's like 1200 public radio listeners who you would think would be like the least outdoorsy people in town.

But it turns out even they are pretty fucking outdoorsy. And I had this experience where I said to the audience, I said, okay, I'm going to say something to you now and I don't know if it's a good idea to say it to you or not. And so what I'm going to do is I'm going to say it to you and then we're going to vote on whether it was a good idea good idea to say it to you or not and so what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna say it to you and then we're gonna vote on whether it was a good idea for me to say it to you and then what I said to them was I've never been hiking and then 1200 people went like oh I was totally like, what happened? And then they voted and it was definitely not a good idea. And then I was like, what is it? And then people coming out to the audience is like, we just see you differently now. And I was trying to figure out like, what does that even mean?

And I was trying to like imagine that in my world. Okay, so I'm in my 50s and like so to them for somebody in the 50s to stand on stage and say I've been on this plan for 50 years and I've never been hiking I'm trying to think about what would apply to this room It's like somebody would say I've lived in New York for 50 years and I've never been on the subway And just think about how you would look at them. That's how they looked at me. Of like, what are your values? Who are you? What choices are you making? And I was like, well wait, but hiking,

it's just, it's just walking, right? It was a positive side. And you're giving me this fancy nomenclature. So this is great. Yeah? It's a great start. I think like, it's, there's a couple like rookie things that are kind of neither here nor there.

Like for example, like Breckenridge, Colorado, people are gonna woo, you can't acknowledge it. Just move on, okay. You're just wasting people's time. Okay, good. Because everyone woos for everything. Every location, every whatever. Okay, great. When you do the for everything. Every location, every whatever. Okay, great.

When you do the fucking outdoorsy, you can do it, but it's like, just know that the fucking is uncalibrating your laugh. So in other words, like you don't actually know whether that's funny because it's like a comedy, Jim Gaffigan calls it like, using the word fuck, like a comedy steroid. Oh, that's so interesting.

You don't know the muscularity of the humor because people just have a guttural response to the word. And so you're just kind of like, all right, well, I don't even know if that's funny. That's great. It's funny, I said fucking because that's what I would have said in real life. They don't know me.

Yeah, and like, look, I mean and look, that's a good note. You can do it also, you can do it once because it's funny that the guy on public radio is saying fuck, that's funny, that is funny. But if you do it four or five times, it's diminishing returns. And also it's cheap. Yeah, I think there's a perfect example

of how storytelling is one thing and stand-up comedy is another. It's really funny when you go, we see you differently now because you're going on hike, and then you go and analogy of like, that's the equivalent of New York if someone's like, I don't use the subway, but then I don't use the subway.

That's an opportunity, that's joke soil. Like that's an opportunity to do a tag, tag, tag about like something specific on the subway or to do other examples of what else is like the subway. That's like going to Texas and being like, I don't have a gun. That's like going to Blanken, you know. But wait, what would other subway jokes be?

That's like going to Florida and saying, I've read books. And it's like, that's your opportunity once you've gotten into the analogy. Sorry, Florida, by the way. I know you read books. But that's your opportunity because it's your step out from what your story is. Oh.

And that's what separates. So you're just throwing away these lines. You're like, you're kind of like free associating once you have the subway analogy, which is a good analogy. But then you're just kind of like going like, you'd be like, what the heck or whatever. It's like, well, those are wasted lines.

You know what I mean? Like you're kind of just like, you're improvising clearly, but like you either have to get to the store, get to more of the story or have your jokes be better and sharper. It's like, if this, what, you know, all of, all of joke tags are if this, what else? If this, what else?

If this, what else? Like a great example of that is like, when you see an improv show, essentially the scene that you're watching is, here's like a regular day in the life of a family, you know, whatever, living in the woods or whatever, just going about their day. And then something happens where it's like,

someone discovers, wait, you have a cell phone? You know, like one person is doing something different than everybody else. We all agreed, we weren't gonna, and then the whole scene ends up being an act out of what would happen if you had a family living in the forest, no technology, and then it turns out one person does have a cell phone, what's the act out of that?

Okay, so in this instance, if I would go further just on the subway without going to other cities or states, what's another, where would I go if, what else would I say about the subway without going to other cities or states, what's another, where would I go if, what else would I say about the subway? Well, you could be like, you know, and you try to pretend, you try to play it off. You'd be like, of course I've been on the subway. That's the train on the tracks with the wheels

and the steam, right? Right. You know what I mean? Like that's like an act out of that conversation. Right. I see. I don't know. Okay.

That might not be good, but I'm just saying like that. Like that's like a common way to make something that's a premise into a joke, which is to act out the hypothetical of if that happened. Like, so you're saying like, I said I've never hiked and they were like, what the heck? And you're like, that's like if I was like, I've never been on the subway.

And then it's like, you imagine like, well, what is that? What's the act out of that conversation? And then you're like, no, no, no, I have, I have. I've been there. The orange seats and the... Yeah, okay. All right, let's keep playing. All right.

Well, wait, but hiking, it's just, it's just walking, right? Like you're just, you're just fancy nomenclature, but it's just you're just walking around. And they're like, yeah, but it's in nature. But I was like, how different is that really then when my wife and I go walking around like the West Village and looking at stuff, but like it's totally different because it's nature. And I was like, but why is that different? And then there was also like a kind of And I really felt something I almost never felt which is like New York pride Because I

Honestly don't give a fuck about New York City But like I really felt like oh my god. I'm now a New Yorker. I had to come to Colorado to realize that I'm a New Yorker. And then I'm talking to the audience about like wait what's so good about it and then somebody like in the way back of the audience yells out something I was like what did you say and everybody's around them is like clap side that's right that's right and wake up and say well what did they say we say and then them is like clap side. That's right, that's right. And we go, what did they say? And then somebody like a little closer to me in the auditorium yells out something I can't hear. I was like, what did? And everybody around them sort of like, that's right, that's right, that's what did they say? And then somebody like near me is like, sex while hiking.

I was like, sex while hiking? I was like, well, how many of you 1200 people have had sex while hiking? And then it was like, all of them. No. And then they were all like, yeah, yeah, yeah. And now I just want you to picture this from where I was standing, okay? When you do a public radio event, it was kind of an expensive thing. It was like 60, 70 bucks for the tickets, which is expensive here, but in Colorado is crazy.

I don't know if you've ever... Here, pause for a second. ...Buy anything, anywhere. Yeah. Yeah. So, my favorite thing so far is hiking is... Just walking? That's so funny.

And I feel like you could do two minutes on that. Like I think. Is that true? What's there? No, it's just funny. It's like, I mean, we were talking about this earlier before you showed up. It's like, what is essential to a great joke?

And I think a lot of it is you have a setup, something that we all believe to be relatively true. And then the thing takes a left turn so that there's a surprise or something we don't expect. And then even better than that, as if the surprise reveals something about you, the person talking. That is even maybe a confession of some kind.

That's kind of like a quintessential, like the best case scenario of a joke. But I think like, if the setup, hiking is just walking is A, true, and we all believe it to be true, and it's an astute observation that we're not thinking about all the time, that's kind of gold.

Like we were saying earlier, like an example of that is like, is like, as a joke in my last special, I'll be in the pool where I go, healthy food goes to bed early. And it's like, it's funny because we're like, yeah, it totally is, healthy food does go to bed early. And it's true and it's a joke.

And then I can do tags about it once we're in that world. And so for that, like, what could I build off of that? Cause I feel like I don't even know how to picture what I'm building off of hiking is just walking. Hiking is just walking, except when you're walking around New York City versus when you're walking around the woods, you don't see a bear, but maybe you see,

like I'm trying to think of the name of it, like the right celebrity. A human being masturbating. A human being masturbating. Yeah, I'm just trying to think of like the right one for that joke. Or you might see someone throwing you down the stairs. Right, but is that what you mean? Yeah, I guess that's what you mean.

Yeah, because ultimately. And then just basically run the comparison of hiking versus walking. Yeah, because I think fundamentally with Stan, you're telling a story, right? Right, right, right. And what you're focused on as a storyteller on your radio show and when you're touring all the time

is like, what's pulling them to the next idea? What's pulling them to the idea after that? So then, so then, so then, so then. Right. What people go to see stand-up comedy for is kind of to be on the scrambler of ideas and words. It's kind of like, musically it's like jazz. It's just like, well, where are we going to go? And so you going like from hiking to the subway to this, to this, like jumping around actually is part of, I think, what's fun about it.

If the ideas are interesting. Okay, so here's another pitch for hiking is just walking, except when you're walking around a city, there's something interesting to look at. And the problem when you're in nature is it's just trees. Oh, that's great. It's repetitive. It's repetitive. For starters, that's great. It's repetitive. It's repetitive.

For starters, it's repetitive. It's just, yeah. Yeah, and it's a little bit like- There's no variety. It's a little bit like, yeah, we get it, forest. Tree, tree, tree, dirt, like pattern. Repeating. Okay, and then I wrote down sex while,

so let's say you set up the idea of hiking is just walking and then you get to this really funny part about sex while hiking, and they all kind of know, it's like an inside joke on you, which I think is a joke unto itself too. The joke on you from the audience is funny. Dude, I have to say, like, this is the thing I don't know the answer to,

I don't sell this well in the standup set, is I literally don't know where they're putting me on. 1200 people. They're not putting you on. No, I think that's real. They all have had sex while hiking. I'm gonna ask Gary and Mabel, do you think this is a thumbs up or a thumbs down on things people do?

100%. 100% yes. Yeah, they're both saying 100% yes. Yeah, people do this. Yeah. They were not putting you on. And actually, I think it's an interesting part about, this is where the personal revelation can come in. I think the thing you're describing to me right now is interesting.

The fact that you don't know about this conspiracy of sex happening in the woods is hilarious. Because the personal revelation about you means you haven't had sex in the woods. And so as a result, you're divulging this to the audience. And then, so the joke is on you in the story, but also the joke divulging this to the audience. So the joke is on you in the story, but also the joke's on you with the audience,

which is good. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think it's great. Yeah, okay. Well, it's super funny. So then I just had a tag, which is, sex while hiking, and then you're like, is that a thing or whatever.

And then I thought as a callback to your own joke, sex while hiking is just sex while walking. And then you could be like, are people having sex while walking? Wow, okay, okay. That all tracks, right? Like as something that could be something. I'm not saying that that's the thing.

I'm just like sitting at a table here. Okay. All right. Let's keep going. All right. It was a fundraiser. It's kind of expensive. It's like 60, 70 bucks for the tickets, which like is expensive here, but in Colorado is crazy.

Like I don't know if you've ever tried to buy anything anywhere outside of New York City. You remember what it was like before you lived in New York City? Like, okay, so my wife and I, we moved here in 2006, 2007. Okay, I feel like this next joke is kind of cheap. Okay. And I had this experience two years ago. I was in Dallas.

Yeah, awesome, right? And I was at a bar with three people, and I went to the bar to buy us a round of drinks. And it was, I remember, it was two Jamesons and two beers, and I pulled out $40, and the bartender's like, that's $14. Do we travel back in time? Pause. What are you about to say?

I was just going to say that's a very funny joke. Two Jamiesons, two beers, $14. The end of that joke is what that would get you in New York. Right. In New York, if you went to a bar and asked for a glass of water, they would say it's $14, but don't worry about it. Yeah.

You know what I mean? Yeah. Just to give the sense of what New York is like. Yeah, bring it back. Yeah. Yeah, there's just more there than amusing. Yeah. Did you guys know this? It's like, it's crazy. We, we're, it's so expensive in New York City.

So anyway, so it's expensive. So the people who come, and I say this with respect, we're old people. That's who comes to a thing where there's $60, $70 tickets. So like in front of me, I mean in the back seats there's some cheap seats, but really like most of what I can see is older glasses wearing people and so picture like your audience of your parents Older people so like so like what's going on? So I'm saying to the audience wait How many of you had sex while hiking and then it's really like picture. It's your parents and auditory of them going like Yeah

Of course, how am I going to like, yeah? And then like, and then in the car to the airport. I think there's an opportunity here to be like, his older, older glass is wearing people. It's people who look like me. It's me talking to people like me who had sex in the woods, telling me that I have not had sex in the woods.

That's funny. Yeah, that's funny. Driver was in his 20s, I was like, is that what's up That's funny. Yeah, that's funny. Okay. Driver was in his 20s, I was like, it's that, it's that. Okay, so then I did a big transition here. So the next day I had a driver who was young to take me to the airport. And then I asked him.

Not real, like they were just like, the whole audience figured out that they could put me on. And he's like, no dude, no, it's totally real. He's like me and my girlfriend every weekend. We take a hike and that's what we like to do. And we have sex like in the woods somewhere and we bring a hammock I was like A hammock? And then you just picture it like

I was like why do you even like But now I just have like I really wanted to know the physics of that But then I feel like it's gonna get really technical in kind of a gross way Do you know what I mean? I'm like well she puts her legs you, I just didn't want to hear it. But like, and then I was saying to the audience, like, sex while hiking, like, on the ground? You know what I mean? Like, in the dirt?

And I said this and that and they're like, you find a rock! And I don't know if you've been outside, but there's like bugs. And like, it's color, there are bears. Okay. Have you guys had, have you guys, how many people here hike? Can I just hear?

Okay. How many of you have sex while hiking? Hear a pause for a second? I just think it's, there's two opportunities here, I think. One is a hammock and you can be like, what, you know, what else, like that, you know, like what else do you use? A fishing rod and this, you know what I mean? Like I'm trying to think of other fishing,

like other camping supplies, you know? Because the hammock is so nonsensical in a certain way. It might be funny. I don't know camping supplies, but like, it just might be funny to do that. And then, you know, a fishing rod, a torch, this or that, whatever. And then you go, you find, then you ask the person,

the person goes, you find a rock. And then I think there's an opportunity there to be like, you think that's the answer? You think that solved the puzzle in my brain? You find a rock? What size of rock? I'm just imagining two people having sex on a pebble. Like, oh, this hurts my back.

So I just think there's something there. I think what's funny is this actually goes back to, I think you taught me years ago about storytelling on This American Life, which is, and I quoted on this podcast all the time, which is like so often a story is the plot of the story and then a little bit of how you feel about that piece of plot and then more plot

and then a little more of how you feel about that. And with my stories and what I'm pitching you to do, the how you feel about it is jokes. It's extrapolations of letting your brain kind of go for a walk and free associate in kind of the most absurd way on what would be these, what would, how you feel about it.

And like putting yourself in the shoes of yourself talking to this local guy, being like, do people do this? And him being on a rock, it's like, how do you feel about that? Like increasingly like you're actually, it's almost like a Kafkaesque story. It's like increasingly you're the person who's not involved with this like

mass sexual hike conspiracy. Yeah. Which I think is funny and I think oddly relatable. Huh. I think we've all been in a situation whether it's not sex and hiking, obviously that's just you, but like other things where slowly we realize

we're the person who's on the outside of the thing. I think that that's what the story is. All right, let's keep playing it. All right, this is the time it's almost over. Here we go. They do not advertise hiking properly. I don't know. So is that why REI is such a big thing?

Okay, so last weekend, I went to another mountain town. I was in Missoula, Montana, 70,000. Alright, yeah, awesome place. And then I laid out the whole thing and the sex while hiking and they all were like, yeah. And then I get to my whole speech about public radio and then this question time. I took six questions and the last question was some lady in the audience in the way back where I couldn't see her and she raised her hand, she's like,

I wanna go hiking tomorrow. That's a great ending. Wanna go hiking tomorrow. I didn't even write it myself. Some random lady. Oh right, she said it. That really happened. That really happened.

That really happened. Wanna go hiking tomorrow. That's happened. That really happened. That really happened. Yeah. Want to go hiking tomorrow. Yeah. That's cool. Yeah. And then did you go? No, that's a married man. Right, but like for the joke,

this is where the journalism of your show and the comedy that I do depart from one another, which is like, if it's working, I might place this in a scenario where you're not married when this story happens. And then you would go, so we went hiking and we didn't even have sex. She just wanted to go hiking.

She and I are the only two people who don't think that this is what people ask for all the time, but since we have Josh Johnson and Tignit Taro and all these people who are pros, it's more like level 10 of doing it. And a lot of listeners are like, how do I start? And it's like, this is actually how you start. I'm good because you basically finally got a listener who's a beginner on the show. It's true, we found our guy. No, I feel like I'm totally a civilian level funny.

I'm not professional level funny. And I know that because when you say like, well, I know that because you and I work together and sometimes it'll be like, we need a joke here and you're supposed to have a joke. You're just like, just, and then the boo. No, no, I want you to just make up another one. Just like, I can't do that.

Like when you say like, I'll fill this out with more jokes right here. Like, I feel like I don't know. That's a part that I feel like, that's a part that I don't know how to do. I don't know if I can. I don't know if my brain associates part that I feel like that's a part that I don't know how to do. I don't know if I can. I don't know if my brain associates that way. Well, you definitely can.

It's just a matter of forcing your brain. Well, like you and I have this when we worked on Sleep Walk With Me, the movie, and Don't Think Twice, the movie, it's like your thoughts when we would do readings or we'd be in the edits was like, the way that I'm pitching jokes, you would pitch story. You'd be like, you need the character to say

the fundamental question of the movie in this scene for us as an audience to understand what the movie is about. I get that, that's me. I mean, it's funny because it's such a radio story thing where in a radio story, you really do say what the story is about, but radio tends to be more didactic medium than film.

And in film, it could be really bad if you say it, but in this case, it worked. So you have that for story, your brain, you basically chiseled your brain into a knife that strikes at story all the time. And you're so good at it. But my brain has chiseled towards just being, how is this a joke?

How is this a joke? How is this a joke? And what I would say to the listeners, if you're considering doing sound comedy, but you're like, I don't get how to make the joke, is like, you really have to trial and error. This is how I started. When I was 19 years old in college,

I was working the door at the DCM Prof. I came up with my own exercise, which was you write down a setup, which is something that is true, or we all believe is true. And then I would write five punch lines. Like, what about this? What about this?

What about that? So like the first joke I ever wrote that worked, we have it in sleepwalk with me where I go, my girlfriend is getting the age where she's thinking about having kids, which is sad, because we're gonna have to break up. I've decided I'm not gonna have kids until I'm sure that nothing else good can happen in my life.

And the reason the setup is a setup is that, my girlfriend's a little older than I am, she's thinking about having kids. And we all go, okay, I'll take your word for that, sure. That's a setup, sure. And then the punchline is sad because you're gonna have to break up, right? Because we don't see that coming because it's like, whoa,

that's how extreme you're going to go. Right. And then I've decided I'm not going to have kids until I'm sure nothing else good can happen in my life is I think it's a joke because it's just a revelation. Right. It's like a, it's almost like a philosophy. It's like, oh, not only is this guy not ready to have kids, he has like a life philosophy

on why he essentially would never have kids and why would anyone ever want to have kids. Right. So that's why, yeah, that's why that was, so that's what I would say to the listeners who are considering doing writing jokes is like write out a setup, something we all believe to be true,

and then write out five punchlines. And honestly, just like, see if you can find a friend, ideally another friend who's trying to do standup comedy, and just bounce back and forth what your punchlines are. And so often, I'm just writing down a setup, and I'm writing down five anything. Like, what about this, what about this, what about this? Because you actually don't,

and that's what I would say to you about your story. You don't know what is gonna work. I mean, when I go, this weekend as a comedy seller, working on new jokes now that I've wrapped The Good Life and it's like onto the next chapter. And it's like, I don't know what's gonna work. I've been doing this almost 25 years. I do not know what's gonna work. I've been doing this almost 25 years. I do not know what will work, you know?

I'm just going, like I have a sense of it. I'm like, yeah, I think this is funny. I'm gonna say it in front of people. But man, do you find, I had a joke this weekend and it was like, I didn't know if this was gonna work. I go, it's stressful living in this era of our country. I go the other night, 11 o'clock at night, Jim,

my wife texts me, Trump is trying to, Trump is trying to dismantle the FDIC. And I wrote back, baby, we'll work on it in the morning. And it's like, and it killed because people just feel that way, but I don't know if people feel that way. That's just how I feel. So it's like a lot of your stuff, I would say like, write out like how you feel and try it.

Honestly, like repetition is like by far gonna be your best friend in this. Repetition mean get up on stage and just try them. Yeah. Yeah. Or even like run it with five people, four people, even three people. Hey, can I run these jokes by you? And like the thing about laughter is it's so different.

Jokes are so different from stories in terms of people's reaction. People have fake laughter. Like it's just, or if they do, you know it. You're just like, yeah, that's fake laughter. But people, if you get people, you really can see it. Is there a point, for me, when I write a story, I sit down and write a story.

So do you have a point during the day where you're like, okay, this is the time during the day today where I'm gonna write jokes? Yeah, I think it is typically it's the morning, set aside the morning for writing because it's before I'm kind of like afraid of the world, before I have the news and this and life things coming at me. I try to set aside the morning where I'm fresh.

And the key thing I think with free writing for standup is to free write and let your mind go wherever it wants to go. Cause it's just gonna be so much junk. Like a majority junk. Pages and pages and pages of unfunny things. Yes. I think almost any comedian would tell you this. Almost any comedian would tell you this.

And you're just like writing out the stories the way you would tell them on the air and just like trying this and that. And then just in terms of process, do you edit it down that day? Do you look at it the next day? A few days later. A few days later, I look at it and go like,

what is still funny to me? And I think the key thing when you're evaluating your own comedy is does it make you laugh? Not can you imagine other people laughing? I talk about this with Mulaney all the time. If you imagine people laughing when you're writing your joke, it's not a good joke. Huh?

It genuinely is. It's the Venn diagram of what is funny to you, testing it out with the Venn diagram of what the audience thinks is funny. In that middle area, which is, I believe, only through trial and error, that you find that really, really solid stuff. Hmm.

Okay. So let's talk about the thing that you texted me about the other day, which is like, you feel like you have some topics that you could talk about on stage, but you don't know exactly how to make them stand up comedy. Is that right? Right. Okay. Okay, so I don't know if this is a thing, but it's going on right now. My sister and Susanna, my girlfriend, they talked me into getting a better doctor.

Okay. And so. Great premise. And so I have this doctor who then set up all of these appointments for me with other doctors and specialists and have had apparently, like, you know, I'm being checked for cancer in all these new ways

and just, there's been just like a test, pretty much I've had a doctor's appointment every day that I'm in New York to do, to look at something. Like today I had the experience of going to a dermatologist, which is why I'm dressed the way I am, because I dressed for the doctor. Do you dress for the doctor? No.

You don't dress for the doctor? What are you talking about? A new doctor you've never met? You don't want to like look like, you don't dress for the, you guys don't dress for the doctor? Do you dress for the doctor? No. You don't dress for the doctor? What are you talking about? A new doctor you've never met? No. You don't want to look like, you don't dress for the, you asked him to dress for the doctor? But you never met him.

What are you trying to, you trying to hook up with a doctor? No, I just want them to think like, you're like, not. No. This is a bit, by the way. Dress for the doctor is a bit. Are you kidding me?

That's your bit. We talk about this on the podcast all the time, by the way, which is, you need friends in your life who are pointing out when you talk, that's your bit. We talk about this on the podcast all the time, by the way, which is you need friends in your life who are pointing out when you talk, that's a bit. That's a bit. Okay, okay, okay. And then the joke was on me because it's a dermatologist, so the first thing they do is they put you in a room

and they say, okay, take off all of your clothes. And so then, so I met this doctor in my underwear. Right. Like, and then, and then, and then he's- He's like, he's ruining my plan. To impress him with my khakis. And then, and then that's why I wore the corduroy jacket. Yeah, I like it, I like it. I felt a little bit like professorial.

It's impressive to me. Do you mind taking that off actually in your shirt and your pants as well? Because I'm not somebody who feels comfortable, like naked even in front of myself. Like I just feel very awkward. That's funny, yeah, I relate to that, yeah. Yeah, and so then, yeah,

and then we had a whole awkward conversation, or awkward for me, he's used to talking to people who are completely naked except for their underwear and just like talking about this and that and just like, so you're going back from vacation? You know, what's that place like? Yeah, anyway, so, yeah. He was young, very handsome.

Not that I wanted to make that up again. Is this the end of the story? I don't know. Anyway, so I'm going to all these doctors. So I'm going to all these doctors and trying to be a good patient. And then the other thing I did is that I got a blood test to see if I'm going to get dementia.

Oh, wow. Did the results come back? No, you did it this morning. No, no, no, I did that a week ago and the results came back while I was on vacation with Susanna and we opened them up and we don't know what they mean. That's funny.

That's a great joke. That's a great place to explore for a joke. And like, we don't know what they mean, which is a perfect example of someone who would have dementia doesn't understand the results. We need a doctor to explain it. But we haven't had the appointment with the doctor. But then the whole dementia thing is so big and serious.

Cause my dad had dementia and my uncle and my cousin, and then her mom has dementia and she's dealing with her mom. And then I am 20 years older than her and so, and we're getting married and so this is so much personal information I'm sharing with people. Get used to it, you're a standup comedian now.

And so like, you know, I don't like the idea of her having to take care of me if I have dementia. I get that. And so, and then- But of course, by the way, but that's what you've said, that's by far the most interesting thing you've said, because it's a confession.

Right. And that's really deep. And I think confessions are part and parcel of standup. I think that, you know, if you're, Pete Holmes and I have talked about this on the podcast before. If you're not telling secrets on stage, who cares? And okay, that's a really good note

and familiar to me and how to make a story. But then if I were to go into the whole dementia thing, like what I tell, what I talk about caring for my dad with dementia. And talk about like her experience with her mom, as she would let me. Yeah, I think all of that is really good. And I think it's very relatable

and it's vulnerable about you fearing. It's really interesting actually. I've never heard someone say they're worried about getting dementia because the other people in their life would have to take care of them. I think that's really interesting. And I think in terms of like a joke in that, and it's a hard joke to write.

I mean, look, it's like writing jokes about dark things is hard. It's like, I remember the first time I wrote a joke about a dark thing was, the first dark thing I wrote was when I had bladder cancer. And I said to the audience, I go, but it's funny, because I'm a hypochondriac. And I think the funniest thing that can happen

to hypochondria is you get cancer. Because you're like, see, I told you, remember last week when I thought I had rickets and probably write about that too. There's gonna be a lot of changes around here. And I remember when I wrote that joke, I was like probably like 23 years old when I wrote that joke.

And I was like, oh, that's great because the audience is signaled that it's okay to laugh at this subject matter. And of course with my special that's about to come out, a lot of it, I have to do a lot of that because it's about my dad having a stroke. And so it's like, are we okay as a group to laugh about that my dad had a stroke?

And I tell the audience basically through jokes that we're going to joke about it. But how do I, like this story's about my dad having dementia and what it was like to witness that and be part of it. Yeah, like I don't even know where to begin. Like I could talk about what it was like, like I don't know how to tell that as a,

like I don't know how to tell it as a story. I don't know how to like, I don't know how to find. Find the laughs in it. Yeah. Was there any moment when you were spending time with your dad where something stuck out as a realization to you? I mean, the closest I have to that is that,

you know, like you're watching your parent and they're so reduced. And it's just hard to, it's hard to know with like what to do with your feelings about it. In my dad's case, at some point I realized that he had been on a trajectory towards this moment for a long time.

Like he's somebody who never really liked new things. He didn't enjoy travel very much. And there was a point like years ago, like a decade ago, maybe, when I was down visiting him in Baltimore and he was driving me, he could still drive, he was totally like himself. Then he's driving me to the train

and so it's just the two of us in the car and I'm saying like, so what's going on that you're enjoying? Like what do you, you know, like what do you, like what's kind of fun? What are you into right now? And he said nothing. And he didn't say it in like a self-pitying way. He didn't say it kind of like, it wasn't like for sure.

It wasn't- Sorry to laugh at this, this is funny. It is funny. I think him saying nothing is really funny. Is that true? Like, I don't know, for me, it's just like that real moment. Like, so you'll explain how it's funny. But anyway, so he said nothing.

And then it just, it's funny. Cause I remember like it's nothing. And then it's funny because I remember like, at one moment I thought like, I gotta get him interested in something. You know what I mean? Like what could I get him interested in? Then you think like, well, maybe he could learn to play bridge. Like he's really great with numbers,

he's an accountant or like poker. You know, like poker. Can I interrupt you? It's like, and I realized like, I had to get him interested in something. And then I realized that's what I've been trying to do my whole life. Basically, yeah.

And it's true. Except this time he literally can't do anything. You know what I mean? Like earlier in his life, I was trying to get him interested in stuff, but he could do something. Now he literally can't do anything. You mean once the dementia developed?

Right, exactly. Yeah, yeah. Exactly. And basically his world just got smaller and smaller and smaller until his whole world was, he would get up kind of late, he would go and he would have a little ritual he did with changing the battery in his hearing aid and he took a certain pills

and then he had the same breakfast every day and then he would sit on a couch in front of golf. There's a golf channel on TV and then he would sort on a couch in front of golf. Like there's a golf channel on TV. And then he would sort of phase in and out of like understanding what was going on. I would sit in front of that TV with him for hours and I never figured out, is this like, are they rerunning the same tournament over and over or are these different tournaments?

I could never figure out like, what am I even seeing? So one joke that occurs to me is like, you go through this whole thing of like, I would visit my dad and he would change the battery in his thing and then he would do this and this. And can you go through the methodical thing that you're going through, which is all very serious. And then you just go, anyway,

I'm trying to avoid that for my girlfriend. Well, that's true. You know what I mean? But I know it's true, You know what I mean? Yeah. But I know it's true, but it's also, I think, a punchline. Like I think like the audience kind of gets locked into what is the ritual, day to day ritual of your dad now in a real way.

And then you're circling back to the girlfriend thing, which I just think I like it's true, but I think it is funny. Yeah. The other thing is like, extrapolate this out. It's like, you don't want your girlfriend to deal with you having dementia. I was like, could there be some kind of a program?

Could you set up a program for when you get dementia? You know what I mean? Like, could there be a thing where it's like, she's cordoned off from, you know, like she shows up one day. This is terrible. I'm pitching something terrible, but it's like she's cordoned off from, you know, like she shows up one day. This is terrible, I'm pitching something terrible, but it's like she shows up one day and the locks have changed and I'm inside with a nurse and she doesn't have to deal with me again.

You know what I mean? Like, it might be like your brain running wild on, if you don't want, if you really don't want your girlfriend to deal with you having dementia, it's like, well, what high in the sky, crazy idea would you do so she doesn't have to deal with dementia, Ira? Do you really wanna know? Sure.

I mean, we featured this book on this American life a couple, a year or two ago by Amy Bloom, where basically her partner, her husband realized he's getting Alzheimer's and he says to her like, I don't wanna go through that. I don't want you to go through that. So what we're gonna do is you're gonna figure out how I'm gonna kill myself.

Yes, I heard the story. You're the researcher. It's beautiful. And then he goes off to this place in Switzerland where you kill yourself. I mean, honestly, like, you know. That's what you do. Yeah, but then there's not comedy.

That's a bad way people should listen to that episode if they haven't listened to it. It's incredible. It's really amazing. But also like when I heard it, I was like, okay, that's a good plan. But then I realized he has trouble getting in and like it's a whole fucking pain in the ass.

And then I realized like, I fucking live in America. I could just buy a gun. Like what the fuck? Like what do you have to do this fancy? All of this, all of this. Like that's your bit. Like, like that's your bit. Like I think that's your bit. Like I think the United States of America,

there's one thing you can do is easily kill yourself at any point. By the way, you and I have done a lot of stories over the years. And the classic example of this in yours and my process was in my girlfriend's boyfriend, I was working on stories about when I was with Jenny and we had like a really turbulent part of our relationship.

I remember saying to you, we were seeing other people and all this kind of stuff. And I was like, but I could never talk about that on stage. And you were just like, no, no, that's the stuff that you have to talk about. It's like, I would say the same exact thing back to you. And I understand that, but like for the part of it of like, are there jokes in the Amy Blum part?

Yeah. Is the Amy Blum part just a setup to the joke of like, I'll just buy a gun. It's a setup, buy a gun. I'm in America, buy a gun. Unless I- I can buy 10 guns. I can buy a semi-aut a gun. I'm in America, buy a gun. I can buy 10 guns. I can buy a semi-automatic weapon. I can.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean, that's your joke. It's like, I'm in America. I mean, if there's one thing about America that works, it's too many guns. Too many guns. Which is a really dark thought. It's probably too much.

Maybe too much, certainly too much for your audience. But yeah, in that vein, I think like you have to let your brain go unfiltered. I mean, you have to get on, and the big thing is you gotta get on stage. I don't even know if you have enough time to get on stage. You're so busy with your show. But I do think that that's where you're gonna find it.

Yeah, but I wrote down this one random joke, which is like, my girlfriend and my sister got me to go to better doctors. And I just wrote down this one random joke, which is like, my girlfriend and my sister got me to go to better doctors. And I just wrote down like, I didn't know I had bad doctors until I found out about better doctors. It's just kind of a funny like, cicatruism. It's like when someone points out something that's better,

you're like, fuck, I didn't even know. I thought I had the good one. Yeah, that's good. It was like this new place had a waiting room. They had forms. They gave me a gown. The last place didn't even give me a gown. But like, I think that the, first of all,

I think the better doctors thing is great. I think it also sets up this dynamic. Craig Mazin, screenwriter who made The Last of Us, he always points out that so often in films, we're not interested in who the characters are. We're interested in what is the dynamic between the characters. I think stand-up comedy is the same way.

When I talk about my wife or my daughter on stage, what's interesting is not who they are, who I am. The interesting part is what is my dynamic with them? I think that fundamentally a good place for you to work from is the standup that you played for me earlier. Maybe we'll play a little bit more. And then if you can get that working, so like, for example, like the hiking is walking thing,

that's five minutes and it has an ending. Like the ending is so clear of someone being like, do you wanna go hiking? So it's like, you know, it's gonna start big, you'll have new observations that we talked about potentially, and then you know where it'll land. So that's like a good five minute bit.

And I would say like, try to potentially do one of these kind of riskier stories, for example, like talking about your dad or talking about you trying to save your girlfriend from your own illness, et cetera, and then figure out how to close strong. So I think that's gonna be the challenge is stage time is key and then I think you have a great

beginning bit, you need to come up with a good closing bit and then in the middle is where you'll put the stuff that honestly is like experimental. Like it's gonna be hard to figure out where the laughs are in talking about illness and your girlfriend and seeing doctors and all that stuff. But once you find it, I think that that's gonna be probably the best stuff you have.

Because it's most personal. The final thing we do on the show is working out for a cause is our nonprofit that you like to support that we will contribute to and then link to in our show notes. I would say that given the current challenges facing public broadcasting, if people listen to their local public radio station, it should be a really good time to donate. That is a great point and also-

Funding is threatened and it's a good moment for it. 100% true also to be a subscriber to This American Life to get bonus episodes. Sure, do that too. But I feel like I feel weird asking people to donate to a charity that like I run. Okay, so I'm gonna give you WNYC because that's our local one.

Great. And we'll link to them in the show notes and hopefully people will contribute there. Ira, thank you so much for coming on the show to actually work out material. I know, wow, yeah, well thanks for the advice. I think you were our first guest. I think I was too.

So should I come back with the, should I come back with material? Do you want me to come back? Yeah, I'm open to you coming back. Okay. I'm open, as you know, first of all, you've been the great ally of my entire artistic career. You're the mentor that I thought I'd never have, that no comedian actually was willing to be.

So you took on that daddy role in my life. Well, you know that's true, right? Kind of, yeah. So like my whole, so early in my life. Well, you know that's true, right? Kind of, yeah. So like my whole, so early in my career, all I wanted was a mentor. All I wanted was someone. I wanted Colin Quinn. I wanted, you know, any number of these comics

to take up my cause and help me and teach me. And like no one did and then you did. So anyway, which is all to say, which is all to say, I'm at your behest. Whatever you want from me, I'll do this anytime. You can go work on material, come back, and we'll keep talking about it. All right.

That's it? Maybe I will, yeah. Thank you. Great. Working it out, cause it's not done. We're working it out, because there's no... That's going to do it for another episode of Working It Out. You can listen to This American Life on your local public radio station or get the podcast version. Wherever you get your podcasts, you can watch the full video of this episode

on my YouTube channel, at Mike Berbiglia. You can subscribe. We're posting more and more videos. Check out birbigs.com to sign up for the mailing list and be the first to know about my upcoming shows. Our producers of Working It Out are myself, along with Peter Salomo, Joseph Birbiglia, Mabel Lewis, Associate Producer, Gary Simons, Sound Mix by Ben Cruz, Supervising Engineer, Kate Belinsky.

Special thanks as always to Jack Antonoff and Bleachers for their music. Also, Jack is part of an amazing group called Red Hearse. We had one of their songs at the beginning of The Old Man in the Pool, and we have another one of their songs at the beginning of The Good Life. It is so cool. I can't wait for you to see it. Special thanks as always to my wife, the poet J. Hope Stein, and our daughter Una, who built the original radio fort made of pillows, which makes it sound so nice.

Thanks most of all to you who are listening. If you enjoy the show, rate us and review us on Apple Podcasts. If you're new to the podcast and enjoyed this episode, we have over 160 more episodes that we've done since June of 2020 and they're all free. We've had Zarnagarg, we've had Nikki Glaser, so many amazing people. Check out our back catalog and comment on Apple Podcasts. Which one is your favorite?

Thanks most of all to you who are listening. Tell your friends, tell your enemies, tell your new doctor. Ira talks about dressing up when you meet your new doctor. Such a bizarre concept, but if you really want to impress them, just make sure you're listening to this podcast in the exam room when the doctor comes in. Oh, hey, sorry.

Just listening to this really cool podcast, Mike Purbiglia is working it out. It's where comedian Mike Purbiglia works out material with other comedians and sometimes even public radio hosts. If that doesn't impress you, check out this outfit. Thanks everybody. We're working it out. We'll see you next time.