Mike Birbiglia's Working It Out - 173. Atsuko Okatsuka Returns: The Dizzy Duo

Episode Date: June 16, 2025

Atsuko Okatsuka returns for her fourth Working It Out episode. Mike and Atsuko trace their friendship from Atsuko’s first appearance on the podcast, to opening for Mike at the Chicago Theatre, to touring with Mike across the country. Through it all Mike and Atsuko (and Atsuko’s husband and creative collaborator Ryan Harper Gray) became close friends and trusted comedy confidants. Now they discuss the delicate process of turning domestic drama into comedy, like Atsuko’s story of essentially being kidnapped by her grandmother as a child, and more recently, the time when Atsuko realized she’d never done the laundry at home, and how her husband encouraged her to make it into a bit.Please consider donating to The Trevor ProjectGet tickets to Mike's 92NY event here.

How did you ask your grandma if she kidnapped you? How'd you bring it up? Did you go like, I have something to talk about you, with you? Yeah, and I said, I'm about to record this conversation too. Is that OK? Yeah, so there was that. It was kind of a trap.

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Her new special is called Father. It is fantastic. It's on Hulu and Disney Plus now. I highly recommend watching her special. Thank you so much for watching my special, The Good Life. It's on Netflix now. I'm super proud of it. This week we're actually doing a really exciting event at the 92nd Street Y here in New York. I'm screening the special and then doing a Q&A hosted by my good

friend Hassan Minhaj. That's this Wednesday, June 18th. You can get tickets for that at 92y.org. We'll put a link for that in the show notes. This summer, I have five shows coming up with Nick Kroll and Fred Armisen, all in support of John Mulaney's new hour of comedy. The four of us will be in New Haven, Connecticut, in August, Bethel, New York, in Portland, Maine, and then in Halifax.

I've never been to Halifax. Very excited with the Garrison then in Halifax. I've never been to Halifax. Very excited with the Garrison grounds in Halifax. And then September 13th, we will be in Vancouver. Tickets at Burbiggs.com and check out The Good Life on Netflix now. I love this chat with Atsuko Okatsuka. She has been on fire lately. I mean, we talk about her special father.

We talk about this incredible story of her being kidnapped by her own grandmother as a child and How she recently talked about this with her grandmother and told that story on this American life to Ira Glass She just has a fascinating life. She's fascinating and hilarious Funny in her bones type of person. I think you're gonna love this one It's my favorite of the Atsuko episodes enjoy Enjoy my conversation with the great Atsuko Akatsuka. Ooh, ooh, working it. Your special is beautiful.

Thank you. Thank you for watching. It's so good. Well, I saw like three iterations of it, so I knew the material pretty well, but it got better and better and better, which sometimes doesn't happen. Sometimes it's like better and better and a little worse. Oh, for sure. But you're like, I feel like you're super loose.

You come out, you're dancing, you're high energy, but also personal, but also physical, but also your voices. Like I feel like it's your most breakout of the film's performances. Even more so than the first one, I love the first one. I feel that it's your most breakout of filmed performances. Even more so than the first one, I love the first one. I feel that way too. What got you there? Well, I toured it way more than the first one.

I didn't really have like a touring audience, I think for the first one, so I didn't super tour. What I'm saying is, this show, I've toured for two years internationally. You know what I mean? So it's the most worked through. Right. What I'm saying is, you know, this show I've toured for two years internationally, you know what I mean? So it's the most worked through and like tried out and trial and error. Yeah.

And that actually, you know, believe it or not, works, right? And believe me, it got worse too at one point when you said, oh, sometimes it doesn't. Oh, really? Yeah. It got worse at one point. I was in Asia and Australia and it was worse, but I didn't know it. I was like, I'm gonna make it jokier,

take out more of the personal stuff. So there was, and then when I came back, I watched the tapes and I was like, I made it worse. And so then I went back to a more original version. And that's why. Interesting. That's what you saw as the final taped version. Fascinating. Yeah. The special though, like, okay, what I find remarkable about it is

you tell this story about being kidnapped by your grandmother from Japan when you were a kid, and then like 25 years later, you're kind of unpacking it and asking her about it. Right. And the audience is dying laughing. And what strikes me is what a specific thing that you did in your life and the audience is dying laughing. And usually laughter is

a sign of relating. My question is like, what are they relating to in your opinion? Oh yeah, I know. I've wondered that because it is so. I wonder, maybe it's just being lied to by your family. Yeah, sure. Like, we all have been. Right, the absurdity of, like, I guess our relationship with our own parents. Yeah. Yeah. Who should know better than we do.

Yeah. Who are our guidance. Who... Is there to guide us? Yeah. But then they mess up real bad, like accidentally kidnap you or something like that. It's funny, we have the thing in common, which is we both, I told my sleepwalking story

on This American Life, and that was a big breakout thing. And you told your kidnapping thing on This American Life. And you even have jokes about it in the special, of like, you know you're in trouble when you're telling your story at this American life. Yeah, it's not good. You're like, oh, I'm inspirational. I don't want to be inspirational.

Yeah, because then the polar opposite of inspirational is what, just kind of, you know, being like- One of the gang. One of the gang, part of society, you know, a suit maybe. A suit. Right, a salary man in Japan, that's the ultimate like goal for a lot of people

in Japan is to be a salary man. We all wear uniform suits, we all walk in rhythm, going to work on the subway and then we come back. That's kinda right. What if you were a suit and this was the suit? It's like 40 women like in your exact outfit right now. Oh, that would be... That's fashion. Oh, I would love that.

Then I'd be into... That's a dance squad. Yeah, that's more of a dance crew. Yeah. Yeah. Which is a dream of mine. Just for the listener people only who aren't on video. This is just a beautiful purple, pink, white pattern.

Yeah, top and pants. Suit. Yeah, that's true. Of sorts, yeah. This is the kind of, yeah, if I were to, I guess I've always wanted to stand out a little. So I joke about being an inspiration and things like that. Like I would rather just live simple and, you know,

no one ever sees me and I just eat chips and be surrounded by ranch dressing. I joke that that's the kind of life I want. But you know, I think there's definitely an, I'm glad that all those things happen and that you know, we're performers and we, there's an ego. We have an ego, right? For sure. Yeah. But it's funny, like, the whole special,

thematically in a lot of ways, is about wanting to have friends and adult friendship being elusive. And in some weird way, it's like the audience of the world is your friend. Right, yeah, I know, I think about that. Because when people started showing up to my shows wearing wigs of my bowl cut.

Oh my god, they did? Right, yeah. Wow. So then it's like, is the audience my friend? Or have I tried to make them me? Is this a cult? This is how Jonestown started. You know what I mean?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. What have I done? Yeah. The Dora thing, like you call that looking like Dora the Explorer. Is that something you noticed or someone else said to you? Someone else noticed. I read my comments because sometimes the audience has like tags by accident. That's how I feel about it.

Right? Yeah. Yeah. At some point someone said you look like a cross between Matt Damon and Bill O'Reilly and I'm like, I'll take it. And that's where you got that. I'll put it in the show. How about the Paul Rudd thing?

Yeah, you look like an ugly Paul Rudd. I'll take that. Thank you very much. Yeah, exactly. I'll use it as my superpower. Yeah. As fuel. I'll run with this. Because when you make that joke in the special, the thing I'm thinking when I'm watching is like, there's no way Otzko looked in the mirror and was like, I look like Dora the Explorer.

No, I wish. This is why it's important to ask other people, right? How they perceive you and things like that. You know, it's funny you should say that. It's like, I always, I try to get my guests who I'm friends with to make fun of me or at least call out a thing that I don't understand about myself.

Because I crave that. Is there anything you think about me that I haven't mined about myself that you think is ridiculous about me? I don't know. I mean, it's so hard, because I'm not a roast comedian. I'm so anti. I've done one roast, and it was the roast of Mr. Peanut.

That's... I saw that. Yeah, literally, that's the only... I was like, yeah, I'll do that. I it was the roast of Mr. Peanut. That's... I saw that. Yeah, literally that's the only... I was like, yeah, I'll do that. I'm not hurting anyone's feelings. It's a cartoon character. It's a peanut. It's a peanut.

It's an animated peanut. But then I forgot that they come and roast you too, the other comedians. I was like, oh, right, this part. What is that? Oh, it's all about the hair. Oh, it is? Yeah, like, oh, speaking of mushrooms, here's Osco. You know what I mean? Or like, oh, speaking of mushrooms, here's Osco. You know what I mean?

Or like, oh, speaking of penises, it was always like that. Oh, OK. Who does your hair? I'll make sure to never go to them. Things like that. Oh, gosh. Cool. But you know, that's yeah, that's roast. That's roast fair.

That's roast material. Do you talk about being dizzy at all? Or is that something just that I look dizzy at all times? Me and Ryan have been like, because we're concerned about you, we love you. So that's why we're like, Mike looks like he's like always a little dizzy. But you've talked about waddling too.

You're onto something though. Yeah. I think you're onto something with this dizzy thing. He's always a little dizzy at all times, are you? No, no, I think that's a great point. And He's always a little dizzy at all times. Are you? No, no. I think that's a great point and I think I should exploit that more. People say in my comments sometimes he looks drunk.

On talk shows, and of course I never drink. I'm not drunk. When I'm on talk shows or performing or anything like that, I barely drink in life at all. And people are like, he's drunk. Not even he might be drunk. He's definitely drunk. And I'm at home reading the comments going, I'm not drunk. Not even he might be drunk. Like, he's definitely drunk. And I'm at home reading the comments going, I'm not drunk.

I don't know what to say. This is how I talk. This is how I look. Right, right, right, right. But I feel like it's not a compliment. Yeah, no, drunk is lowbrow. It's too easy. Yeah.

You know, it's like... But Dizzy's funny. There's this game in Japan that we would play as kids where... Oh, no, actually, okay, you have this too. It's, you know, hitting a pinata. You know how with a pinata, you blindfold the kid, then you spin them around so they don't know which direction. That's what I look like.

And then you walk, you go, now go! Yeah. It's kind of what I meant by like kind of the way you approach a life. I'm going to try... The exact thing you said, I'm going to try it a bit. Yeah. No, I'm gonna try, the exact thing you said, I'm gonna try it a bit. Yeah. No, I'm gonna try that exact,

to say to the audience, you know what I look like? I look like, you know when you spin a kid around and then you un-blindfold him? Yeah. That's what I look like. I bet an audience would lock into that. I think so, yeah, cause you do. Cause the drunk thing, I don't wanna say I look drunk.

No, that's so general too. It's so general. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it drunk thing, I don't want to say I look drunk. No, that's so general too. It's so general. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's like, yeah, I think that the spinning a kid around blindfolded and then you unblindfold him, that's what I look like all the time. Yes. That's a good, I'm going to try that. Yes, yes.

Finally, somebody answers my question on the show. He a dizzy boy. I'm a dizzy boy. He's a dizzy boy. I'm a dizzy boy. And so many people are dizzy. I'm a dizzy boy. But's a dizzy boy. I'm a dizzy boy. And so many people are dizzy, but that's relatable, right? You know what you are, you're relatable.

Also not a compliment, right? No, no, I get that all the time. You're relatable. I'm like, all right, get out of here. You're so accessible. Yeah, you're so accessible. You know, it's not like, you know, yeah. We feel like we are you.

Right, it's like, it's never, you're remarkable. You're extraordinary. It's like, you're exactly like the most boring person. I get told I'm relatable too, so there's that, you know. I think you're extraordinary. But in that like, you know, I am accessible in that you will find me stuck on a ride at Disneyland or you know what I mean?

Which is how some people found me the other day actually. Really? Yeah, I got a ride broke down while I was on it. It's used to be Splash Mountain. It's called Tiana's Bayou now. And it's a log ride. You boom splash. It was the big drop at the end.

So you're boom, you're drenched wet. And that's when the ride stopped. Wow. But you're outdoors by then. And so you're out in public. You're just on this as a grownup. Oh yeah, I'm kind of a Disney adult, but you know this right?

I'm Dora. No, I know, I know. Yeah. You are Dora. The funny thing is I thought when I'm watching your specials, you talk about how elusive adult friendship is. We are adult friends.

I know, yeah. You and I are adult friends. We met as grownups. We did, we did, yeah. And we didn't even have a common enemy, did we? It could be. No, you talk about how friendship needs a common enemy. Sometimes it's the boss, it's the man.

Sometimes it's a long line. It doesn't have to be a person. Sometimes it's a long line. You know? What was ours? Well, why did we bond as friends as adults? Life, comedy. Comedy? Life is hard. Stand, I mean, comedians know, like the,

right, being a comedian and the things that, you know, it requires. Yeah. That could be a common enemy a little bit. That we bond over. Yeah, I think so. We know the road is hard, we know these things. So. Yeah, I think that's true.

We just clicked right away, we did a show at the Chicago Theater like four years ago, I think. Yeah, I know. That's a wild way to start too. It's a wild way to start a friendship. Hey, because we were like. We did this podcast remotely. Yes. And I was like,

hey, you should open for me in Chicago. Oh my God. And the first time meeting you is like right before Chicago Theater is wild because then you're like, okay, show's starting. What? And I go out there in front of 3,500 people. Hey, Mike's people. Are you ready for Dizzy Boy?

Here he is. The headliner's here and he's Dizzy! Can you imagine? You're like, oh, okay. That would be hilarious. Different vibes. Different energy. You just fully roast me the moment we meet.

People change. People change. From, you know, and then to, you know, because their online persona and in-person persona can be so different. Oh, yeah. Sometimes you're surprised, shocked. You go, I thought I befriended the online you. No, totally.

You know? No, I could be wicked and mean. Shouting at people. Dizzy. In person? Yeah. Yeah, I know. And I go, wow, this…

Yeah. That's not who I thought it was. The dizzy part is the only part that actually is true. You know? What do you think… Now that you've analyzed the dizzy part, the only part that's true? Yeah, coming through online and in person. You talk about like being codependent with Ryan

and do you feel like you have any detanglement strategies for being codependent or are you just comfortable in being codependent? We have never talked about that. Really? Yeah, we've never talked about that. Really? Yeah, we've never talked about that. We are not as mature as like you and Jen. You and Jen, like sometimes you talk about each other

and your relationship on stage and I'm like, wow, they're a duo that really know each other and know themselves. That's a nice take. It is, to know that like, you know, your love language is like keeping score, things like that. I'm like, I don't know if I would have the ability It is, to know that your love language is keeping score, things like that.

I don't know if I would have the ability to know that about me and Ryan. Well, it's funny though, one of the relatable things in your special is about the delegation of work having to do with washing clothes, the washer and dryer. And you realizing after all these years by going to the washer, like, oh, I've never used these buttons.

Yeah, totally. Like you weren't doing the laundry. I wasn't, yeah. So when you realized that, were you immediately like, this is a bit? No, no. Ryan is the one that was like, that could be a bit. To be honest, I felt bad at first because he was shocked. He was like, wait, hold on. When I asked him how to turn it on, because I was like,

which setting would be good? It was more like that. It says power. It says power. I know how to turn it on. But I was like, which setting would be good for all underwear? Should it be cold or hot?

And he was like, what? That's when he realized, he was like, wait, hold on. Wait, have you not done it before? And I was like, that's so interesting. I was like, oh my God, I don't think I have. Like it was this, but it was devastating. It wasn't like, ha ha ha. Right. We had a fight.

It was a fight because it was like, wait, so what am I? What am I? Just like, Cinderella? What's going on? He was saying that. Yeah. And I was like, well, yeah, I hope fold the clothes. And he's like, yeah, maybe that's why you thought you've been doing it too. And I was like, why didn't you notice? I was gaslighting. Why didn't you notice?

Why didn't you know? You should know. How come you didn't notice? Because I'm the one physically doing it. He thought sometimes when it would be done, you forget. You go, oh, maybe she did this load. Yeah. Because sometimes it takes days for us to fold clothes too.

So you forget. But it's hard, do you feel like, well, Ryan directed the special, so clearly he has a hand in what ends up being in the final cut. If he didn't like the laundry bit, he could snip, snip, snip, snip, snip. Just like his vasectomy, snip, snip.

That's right. He could do a vasectomy on your special if he wanted to. Yeah, live? Live, yeah. But did he ever push back on your version of the events with that bit? He didn't because it's a bit that makes me look bad.

You look ridiculous. So he was like, fine. He's like, yeah, it makes me look good. You basically realize in real time that you've forgotten to do your laundry for like 10 years. Oh, I'm going to lose followers with this special. Everyone's, people are Team Ryan after this.

Yeah, yeah. Oh yeah. People go, oh, people ask him like, hey, do you ever feel bad that like she talks so much about you? And he's like, no, she makes me look like an angel in this. Yeah. Right? No, I think she, I like an angel in this. Yeah. Right?

I think she, I think he comes off well. Yeah. Yeah. I'm the villain. You come off dizzy. I'm dizzy. You and me are dizzy. I know.

We're just like, what? Who? Laundry. Do you ever run the bits by your mother, your grandmother and your father? Because there's so much stuff about them. Yeah. I tell them, I tell them that I talk about them, but I don't know the language, like Mandarin or Japanese enough to be able to do the joke exactly.

Oh really? Yeah, so I'm like, this is what the joke is about. And I remember like you did take me and remember. Right, remember you kidnapped me. Yeah, and I asked you. And then anyway, it's on radio, you know that, because they're fact checking, this American life fact checks.

Oh, interesting, yes. Everything. So they talked to my dad and grandma and mom anyway. So they all know. And so what didn't make it in is my, because my mom had told me that my dad and her had like a lustful relationship. Okay.

She was like, our marriage was mostly sex. Oh. We would go to the sexy movie theaters. Oh, wow. Yeah. For real? Yeah, that's what she told me. Yeah, go to the movie theater, the adult theaters. Oh, oh, okay.

That's what she means. Like porn? Yes, porn theaters. Wow. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's sexy. And this is Japan? Yes, yeah. Wow. And then they would like not hook up there,

but get all like all formed up and then go home and try to have me. Yeah, so that's what she told me. So she thought that that was the basis of their relationship and then they fact-checked that? Yes, and then they talked to my dad. And my dad was like, it was more than sex.

And then he was like, I don't really want that movie theater stuff in there. I mean, here I am talking about it. But yeah, so that didn't make it in. Okay. Yeah. Has your family watched the special? Cause they could watch it with subtitles.

They could, yeah. My dad will once it's out. Yeah. Cause he can watch it in Japan with, I'll give him my password or something to Disney Plus. Yeah, Disney Plus there. Disney International, I think. Yeah.

And actually he's seen it when I was in Japan touring it. He's seen it five times actually. Oh wow. Yeah. Do you feel like connecting, reconnecting with your dad in this adult stage in your life has changed the way you view the world or have you learned anything from it?

Yeah, yes, I have. That when you're missing something in life, you tend to fill that hole with like your thoughts and versions of what that person is like, how they feel, things like that. Like, oh, they must be so sad and miss me so much. Sometimes they're not. You know what I mean?

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, you go, oh, he must have, you know, been thinking about me every day. Maybe not, you know, he's such a good guy. You know, my grandma's the villain or whatever. Right. And then it's like he was like, no, I also like, you know, I understood that she you would probably be better off with her.

So, you know what I mean? Yeah. How did you ask your grandma if she kidnapped you? How'd you bring it up? Did you go like, I have something to talk about with you? Yeah. And I said, I'm about to record this conversation too. Is that okay? Yeah.

So there was that. It was kind of a trap. I'm about to record this conversation with you is a real worrisome phrase. No, I know. I know because I was like, well, I kind of want to find out something I've been wondering and I may be doing- Did you hold up the recorder? I said, yes.

There's this, do you know NPR? Yeah. I was like, I may be- Public radio. Doing a project with them. The funding is under fire. So we need something real hooky. Yes, and you know, don't we want more immigrant stories on air? That's right.

You know, I really got to all the things she cares about. And then she was like, okay, fine. Yes, I took you without permission. Yes. What is that? And I said, I think it maybe it's a kidnapping. Right. And she's like, no, no, no. That's when she said the ransom thing.

No, no, no. Because in kidnapping, people always ask for a ransom. There's always money, right? I didn't ask her, I didn't tell your dad he needs to pay me a ransom. Yeah. Well, yeah, that checks out. Yeah. There's no ransom.

Because your family members, do people ask family members for, you know how much money he makes. Yeah. There's no ransom. Because you're family members. Do people ask family members for, you know how much money he makes. Yeah. It's obviously you're not gonna ask for a ransom. Right. What, you need a white van and everything for it to be an actual kidnapping?

Yeah. It doesn't pass the white van test, so they didn't think of it that way. No, totally, yeah. She's like, we're friends. We're like close. I know. You have a whole run about nighttime friends

versus daytime friends. Right. Which I think is great. And then I was like, wait, am I a nighttime friend or a daytime friend? You're a nighttime friend. Oh, great. Yeah.

That's such a relief. If you think about it, we rarely see each other during the day. This is during the day. Yeah, true. Because you do your podcast during the day, but rarely see each other during the day. This is during the day. Yeah, true. Because you do your podcast during the day, but you know, when we tour even. Yeah, would I ever meet your daytime friends?

Can you introduce me to your daytime friends? I don't really have daytime friends. Oh, wow. I'm rarely out during the day. I never see the sun. I just found out actually through my makeup artist, Ryan has a darker shade than me. Really? Like, cause we used to share foundation color.

And now I'm more pale. You need to read a book called Co-Dependent No More. I know, I was like, we're becoming, this is my dream. We're becoming one person. We share foundation. Yeah, that's when it was like- Even Ryan's codependent with me. At one point, he gave me makeup when we were on tour.

He was like, here, use this. This will tamp down the reds. We were always trying to recruit you to be part of our codependency. We were always like, how can we make him part of- I think there was a throuple in the making if we had gone on tour long enough. Oh yeah, totally. If we had done five, ten years together.

At least it was like... Non-sexual throuple, but just like a little mini commune. Oh, totally, totally. Where they're like, I mean, that's at least two brothers sharing a wife, right? Or something. I do look a little bit like Ryan, that's true. You know, I'm sure people have wondered.

So this is called the slow. Now we get slow. This is called the slow, and we're going to slow it down. Did your life go how you expected it to go? No, no, I didn't expect much. Yeah. The key is not expecting at all. True. I didn't really dream past 17. Oh, that's interesting.

Not like I had planned to die. Right, right, right. But like, yeah, the scroll, so to speak, on your life, you imagined it gets hazier around 17. And what did you think would happen when you were 17? I dreamed, so back to the whole like, oh, knowing since I was three, I was gonna be a comedian or whatever,

I didn't dare to dream big. So my biggest dream as a kid was to work at an ice cream parlor. And then at age 17, I did. So that's what I mean. I said, well, what now? What else? What more could I want?

I peaked. I know, I peaked. This is the dream? Yeah, ice cream stand. $7 an hour? I got to dream bigger. Yeah. But that's scary to dream bigger.

I said- And then at that point, when you were at the ice cream stand, did you reevaluate and go, I got to dream bigger? I did, because you know how I got that ice cream job was I finally got a green card. So then, right, I had limitations. So why would I think I could become a comedian? Right, right, you didn't have a green card.

Also at that time, you know, they really made you feel like there's only like 20 comedians in the world. That's right. Right, like that's all who's allowed to have specials. Of course. That's who you'll see on David Letterman. You know what I mean? Like it's not like there's thousands now. Yeah.

But there's been thousands. Yeah, but even now, I don't think that you, like a young version of you would go, oh, I could do that. I feel like it was probably incremental. Right, yeah. I go, well, Margaret Cho already existed. I'm not gonna do another one. Why would they?

Right? No, that's how they made you feel. And also like you, like you were like living for a period of time in your like uncle's garage. Right, I didn't have a social security number. I couldn't even drive, get a driver's license. So I was like, yeah, I mean,

let's say I get a green card, hopefully, then I'll go get my first job. And hopefully it's at an ice cream parlor. I did make that happen. So then I was like, oh God, now I dream bigger, okay. Do you remember the second dream after ice cream parlor? I think you're going to. I'm asking you for real.

I'm asking you for real. Yeah. After Ice Cream Parlor, were you like, whoa. Hey, don't laugh. That was my big dream and I achieved that. I'm going to take you out for ice cream after this interview. It was very attainable, but I achieved it. Yeah.

Some people don't even attain that. No, are you kidding me? I'm not scoffing at ice cream. Ice cream is a serious thing. Yeah, I mean, you know, they could have been full. They said we were not hiring right now, but they hired me. Do you remember after that?

I think it was like very basic. I just wanted to be a normal teenager. I said, I want a boyfriend. I went and got that. Nice. I got a boyfriend. I get off, went to the movie theater. Move out.

Count it. I moved out. Yeah, moved out. That's off, went to the movie theater. Move out. Count it. I moved out. Yeah, moved out, that's huge. Of the garage. Wow. And moved in with that boyfriend. Oh, that's cool. Wow.

Yeah, and then I think that's about it. And then, you know, I was like, well, I got into a college, so I'll start going. And then... And then I remember you taught film at a college. That was not a dream at all. That was not something I would- That's a cool job.

It was fun. Yeah, I was like, oh, weird. I mean, this is like what? Very few percentage of the world does this maybe. Yeah. Yeah. Right, so that was cool. But yeah, I didn't be- And then do you remember an inflection point

where you're like, I could be a comedian? It's such an unlikely profession. I know, yeah. You remember the moment or the period of time? That I could be a comedian. Yeah, it was like when I was like 20, 21. Yeah, after I broke up with that boyfriend. Yeah.

And so it's like, oh, that was a big failure. And then I had dropped out of the college. Yeah. So it's like, oh, another failure. You know what I mean? Yeah. So I was like, oh, that was a big failure. And then I had dropped out of the college. So it's like, oh, another failure. You know what I mean? So I was like, well, I might as well do the thing I've always wanted to try. I have nothing else to lose. So that's when I tried it.

But it wasn't like, yeah, here I go. What were the first couple of times? Comedy Central, here I come. What were the first couple of times like? Doing comedy? Well, so I didn't go do open mics. I signed up for a class on Craigslist. Wow.

Yeah. So that was a nice supportive environment. I needed that much support. Was it a comedian who ran it? Yes. Yeah. Lisa Sunstead. It was an all-female stand-up comedy class.

Wow. So it was like a nurturing environment instead of going to a mic. If I went to mics with already like my upbringing at me being dizzy and all. Yeah, yeah, totally. I would have probably stopped. That's interesting. Right? Because it would have been so challenging.

Yeah, it's like I have to, I already have a hard time believing in myself during that time. Yeah. All I need is to like bomb once on an open mic. Okay, all right, nevermind. My bad. Did you have a sense from your peers? It's so funny, because like people have like

starkly different takes on quote unquote like comedy classes, any kind of like comedy education, all that kind of stuff. But I'm kind of of your school thought on it, which is like, if that's what it takes to get you working on material, then great. You have to remember, a lot of us comedians, like you say, right? You, I mean, Jen's an artist, poet, together you're a sculptor.

We don't have the skills. So you want me to have discipline? A lot of us don't have that. Discipline. I needed that. I needed homework every week. I needed to show up I needed homework every week. I needed to show up to a place every week. I needed you to tell me what the, okay, this class for the next two hours, you're writing jokes. I needed discipline. I can't just go, oh, go to an open mic and then, yeah, I'll find carve out time on my own. You know what I

mean? I was bad at school. So yeah, whatever works for you, you know. I love that. Yeah. That's great. What's the most absurd thing you've ever done while drunk? The absurd thing. This is not an absurd thing. Well, I used to go through a period

where I would get pretty naked. Okay. Yeah. Like down to just my underwear, sometimes completely naked. So socially, you'd be like at someone's house or like at a bar? Not in public. It's just like a house party. So a house party. So you just get naked. Ah, just excited. Excited and I'm getting warm.

I'm so warm because I'm dancing and I would just get... That seems great. Yeah. That seems like a really positive drunk person at a party. Yeah, okay, yeah, good, okay. Did it ever go badly? Ever go south? Well-

Has anyone ever like put your clothes back on? Me and Ryan had a talk actually, and when we first started dating, he saw that, he was like, wait, is this a thing you do? Because it was like earlier on, and I was like, oh yeah, I just get happy. That is so funny. And he's like, you were just like everything out,

like, ah, like dancing, like legs spread apart. And he said, at one point I was on my back, just like song on. And I had my legs spread. I was so, and he said, you looked so happy, but you were like laughing. Yeah. But I was on my back and I was like bouncing up and down on my back like that. Just like kind of showing myself to everyone. And he was like, I don't know if that's a... He was like, let's figure that out. Because...

Let's figure that out. Because we were getting, we were starting to figure out if we were getting serious or not, you know? Sure. And yeah, I... Is my girlfriend gonna be the girl at the party, that girl. Naked, like vibrating on the floor?

Right, right, right, right, yeah. And at first I didn't know why it was a big deal actually. Okay, but why is it a big deal? Well, because maybe, you know, as you grow older, let's say, you know, that is your soulmate. And then, I don't know, yeah, you can't, it's not going to age well, I think. I guess so.

I don't know, it's funny. It makes me think of a time I was at someone's birthday party and the woman got kind of naked, kind of the way you're describing it. It was like a dance party. Dancing, naked, semi-naked. Just one person though, right? Yeah, and then the boyfriend did get mad. Right?

Come on. The boyfriend got mad and like pulled her side and it was like, it was definitely a thing. And it did, but it did, like when I went home I was thinking like, what if Jen got super naked at a party, like what would I do? I don't think I would call foul on it though. I think that that's fair game.

Getting naked at a party. What if you got naked? What if you got naked with Jen? If I got naked, what would Jen say? I think that's a closer call. Why? I think it's less welcome. I think people at a party don't want to see Mike get naked.

Mike's drunk and naked is not what people... Hey, don't say that about my friend. Don't you dare say that about my friend. Thank you. I have a bunch of jokes that are like, this is like literally never done on stage. Jokes, jokes. Okay, see if you have anything. Okay. I think one of my main takeaways about spending so much time with my 84 year old dad is that

your life gets worse. So if you wake up in the morning now and you're like things are bad and this sucks, and you should know it gets worse. I'm not saying your situation isn't bad. I'm saying everything is relative. So if your life is bad, you should consider thinking of it as good.

Because think about your life right now and then think, what if it was like this, except I couldn't use my arms, legs or brain? Oh my God. That's a bit that I wrote this week. It's pretty dark. But it is true. It's definitely a thing I had. I thought of my dad this week because he's 15 months out of a stroke. Right. He just can't do much. Yeah, yeah.

And sometimes he can't even think much. It was like, that's a lot. Yeah, I know. I think it's actually kind of empathy building. You think so? Yeah, it's kind of like a, yeah. Human, it's a very humanity joke. Yeah, it's a humanity-based joke.

Humanity-based joke. Humanity forward. I think it's very funny. You think it's funny? I think it's very true. Funny enough to try? Yeah. Yeah?

It's a little long right now. I think I trimmed the middle. Even just like, I mean, I know you want to go into the example of your dad. Even the first line, I'm like, well, I saw, I pictured it. I mean, you know. Right. But it's because, you know. Right, it gets worse as a line is funny.

I think it's really the front and the back. It's like, my takeaway is your life, it gets worse. And then think about, it's all relative. Think about your life right now and then think, what if it was like this, except I can't use my arms or legs or brain? I think that's the whole joke. Yeah, yeah.

People will go aww at the end with the brain part. Oh, interesting. So that's not good. No, no, no, but I wonder if there's one more thing or I don't know, there might be something. Cause then they're gonna wonder who, cause they're gonna be like, wow, is his dad okay? Again, they'll just think about it.

What's crazy about my dad is that he goes in and out of having quality of life. That's the thing that's so challenging about this last year and a half. You'll have days where I think that's the dark thought I have on the bad days. Oh, sure, sure. But on the good days, I'm like, oh, this is sweet. As I make the joke in my special, I go, you know, my dad having a stroke is devastating, but it has calmed him down. And it's true!

I'm not even kidding. Like, he is softer. Which is good! And it's true. It's given us like a bit of peace with each other. Yeah, and it helps that we know what he used to be like. Exactly. This is a funny update from my special,

because my dad has not seen the special. People ask me this all the time, have your parents seen the special? My mom watched the special, didn't say anything to me about it. She didn't say liked it or didn't like it or whatever. But said to my brother Joe, saw the special and I think it will be helpful

for some people. Oh, oh. Yeah. That's great. Yeah, it's enough. Yeah, totally. I'll take it. Yeah, yes. All right. She's enough. Yeah, totally. I'll take it. Yeah, yes.

All right. She's not a critic of comedy. And it's also her son and her husband. Right, right, right. You know what I mean? It's gotta be a lot. Yeah, totally. And then I wrote this one,

which is my wife and I rarely argue other than when we get dressed up to go out. And then she asks me if I like her dress and then I say yes. That is a very controversial answer. She goes, do you like the dress? I go, I love it. She goes, no, you hate it. I go, no, I love it.

She goes, you hate it. I go, I love it. And I think it's possible she has sensors implanted on my face, making sure any movement in my face is tracked at all times. And then basically, finally, it erupts in just me shouting how much I love this dress. And meanwhile, I'm entirely indifferent to the dress.

I don't know anything about dresses. Why would you ask me, look at me? That's very funny. You ever have that with Ryan? Cause you're a fashionista. You ever ask him what he thinks of something you're wearing and it cannot be the correct answer? It's not the wearing thing. Sometimes it's like jokes.

Oh, it's with jokes. Yeah, or like interview. I'm about to do an interview or something and I'm like, oh, maybe I'll tell this story. You know, yeah. Is this story good? And he's like, oh, and I'm like, so it's with jokes. Yeah, or like interview. I'm about to do an interview or something and I'm like, oh, maybe I'll tell this story. You know, yeah. Is this story good? And he's like, oh, and I'm like, so it's not good. I shouldn't do it?

You know, I've done that. I did that yesterday. I mean, before Seth Meyers, yeah. And that's the codependent thing, right? The thing I'm describing is codependent except with dresses. And it's true, you know, Jen runs her poetry by me, I run jokes by her, and it's the same thing

that you're describing. There's no winning. There's no winning. Right, there's really like, how do you feel? At the end you just go, well, do you like it? That's all that matters. I know, it gets back to like age five. That's even more upsetting to hear.

That's even more upsetting to hear. Do you like it? It matters. I know. It gets back to like age five. That's even more upsetting to you. Do you like it? Babe, it's about what's on the inside. You know what I mean? You end up saying crazy things like that. Yeah. Okay.

And then the final thing I had was my dresser looks like a garage sale where nothing would sell for more than a nickel. It's like a glass of orange juice, a half a bottle of Advil and some wrist guards. But if I came home and all that stuff was gone, I'd lose my fucking mind. That's hilarious. I'd be like, what happened to my life?

Wow, that's really brilliant. Oh thanks. You haven't tried that one? No. Oh my gosh. Since the special, I have all this stuff in my notebook, I haven't tried any of it because I've been off stage. Wow, that's so specific.

It says so much about you too. I mean, all of them do. The wrist guard and the nickels and the Advil. Because the last two jokes, that one and then Jen asking you how... Do you like my dress? Yeah, it still goes like it's the same world, you know? I know you mean that you could pair them together potentially. Right, because you're already going like,

I mean, look at me, and then these are the things you own. No, you're absolutely right. No, you're right. Yeah, like you don't think about dresses like that deeply. You'd be upset if your wrist guard and your whatever was missing. Yeah, my Advil. Because it's all I have.

My Advil and my wrist guards. My identity. Yeah, totally. This is who I am. That was a joke I had years ago about Top Gun. It was like I had, it's like, the joke was years ago, I go like every now and then, I'll take something from my past, like a movie I haven't seen in years, decades,

and I'll force my wife to watch it, and I'll preface it with the phrase, this is who I am. And I was like, I did this with Top Gun. Do you have it with anything with Brian, of like, this is who I am? Like, this is a movie, TV show, piece of art. He knows. He knows my thing is like,

like my identity is kind of Disneyland. Oh, Disneyland. Yeah. It's not, it's the thing people fear. I'm kind of a villain. I'm kind of a villain. This is a very villainous thing to be. Which villain character?

Oh, I'm into it all. My backpack is Winnie the Pooh even. Winnie the Pooh is not a villain. He wears no pants. I'm like me. Yeah, yeah is not a villain. He wears no pants. Unlike me. At a party. You at a party? I love my pantsless king.

Your pantsless king? You know, that's my people. That's my guy. Why is he wearing a shirt? Why wear a shirt? Why even do that? Go naked? No, and that's the thing that no one's saying about Winnie the Pooh.

He's drunk and he's dizzy. Yeah, so we're both, and the pantsless is the part that I relate to. That maybe if I do the... If you're showing ass, why do the courtesy of wearing a top? You don't have nipples. No, I think that that's great. I actually think that if I do dizzy as a bit, which you suggested earlier, I think maybe I'll do a tie-in too. I'm Winnie the Pooh.

Yeah, you are Winnie the Pooh. I'm a life-size Winnie the Pooh. Which apparently no one thinks is adorable. Yeah, because his teeter's on like, why is he pantsless? But also his thing is, he's very cute. This is how he thinks. Do you remember how he thinks? Oh, no. He always goes, think, think, think. Like he can't remember why he put somewhere.

He put something somewhere. Right. You know, yeah. Um, do you have new bits? Um, I'm just working on, it's not complete at all. It's just the idea that like Ryan is older than me. And so when, you know, and he's like, it's just him trying to get like the younger sayings. Like we were watching RuPaul's Drag Race with a friend and my friend was like,

it was the runway portion. So we were looking at the looks and my friend was like, yeah, she ate. And I was like, yeah, she left no crumbs. And I just hear Ryan go, she is so full. Full? He's trying to act her. She is so full. She is not even hungry anymore. She is satiated. She is not looking for leftovers. Because then he went, give her a bed. She needs a nap. Yeah, she needs a nap.

And so I thought, oh, is he like narrating Goldilocks and the three bears? If he's just doing children's stories, like narrating children's stories, for every time we're trying to, you know, like we're using young sayings, like we're like, you know, she is queen, we are sad. He's like, fee, five, four, four, you know, I don't know. That's good. I need to figure out where it goes, cause it's just like all this, like if this then what,

but I don't know, you know, it might be a thing I come back to later, who knows? Yeah. Yeah, I think like maybe what you have to get to with it is like how you feel about it. Right, that's true. You know what I mean? Is it annoying? Right.

Is it sweet? Is it, you know, do you want them to do it more, do it less? I love it. Oh, you like it? I can relate to it too, because I also make up English words as an immigrant. Right. So we're both doing things like that.

So I feel like you could pivot to that. Yeah, that's true. Like you could go, I relate to that because I do that with English sayings, et cetera. Yeah, I say on the light, off the light, things like that. What's on the light, off the light? Turn on, like when, turn off the light. I go, can you off the light? You know, things like that. What's on the light, off the light? Turn on when people, like when, turn off the light.

I go, can you off the light? You know, things like that. Oh, I love that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Things, anything above me is upstairs. So like when we're putting things above us in an airplane, I'll be like, can you get my laptop from upstairs? So like things like that.

So we speak a language that we both understand with each other. I think that's a great idea for a bit. Yeah, I think I should make it like how I feel and also how it relates to me. How it relates to you. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, totally. Yeah, do you like it, do you not like it,

is annoying, is not annoying? Right, right. But I love that. Jenny and I always talk about that in relation to like, whenever our daughter will say like a phrase, like you're saying where it's like a made up phrase. Right, right, right. You know, we're always like, yeah, it's makeup phrases.

I mean, because poetry is like all about that. Yeah. Like the amount of like phrasing, like Shakespeare invented turns of phrases. Like that's what's fun about it. That's true. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And they become part of phrases, like, that's what's fun about it. That's true. Yeah, yeah. Exactly. And they become part of, like, you just keep adding different phrases to culture.

Totally. Even the bit from your special, daytime friends, nighttime friends. I feel like that could really be sticky. Oh, uh-huh. Phrases like that. People might call each other their daytime friends or their nighttime friends. This is my daytime friend, yeah. It made me think of this bit I have, which I want to get working, which is like, I feel like I experience joy, but there's different types of joy. Like there's dark joy and there's light joy.

Like light joy is like eating watermelon in the summertime and dark joy is smoking pot through a watermelon. Light joy is when a puppy licks your face and dark joy is when a lady at a bar licks your face. Light Joy is flying a kite at the beach and Dark Joy is using a broken kite as a sheet to have sex on. Light Joy is watching videos of kittens on the internet.

Dark Joy is watching videos of waterslide accidents. It's true. Yeah. Wow. That was a bit, it's funny, I wrote that in my book, the new one book, and I've always wanted to do it as a bit, but I don't know where it goes. Like I have all the examples of like,

what's light joy, what's dark joy? That's true. But it's the same issue of your bit a second ago, which is like, well, how do I feel about it? Right, right, right. Do I want there to be more dark joy? I don't know. Right, and like, why does one make a light? What makes something light versus dark?

I mean, I get it by hearing the, right? And what, yeah. It's almost like when you were a grownup, at a certain point, it's like you end up in like PG joy. It's almost like PG joy versus like X rated joy or R rated joy. Right, yeah, yeah.

It's finding that balance. And then the way you don't want is to only have dark joys. Sure. That's also key, right? No, and as a matter of fact, that's an interesting point. I have friends who, you know, comedians, a little bit are Peter Pan syndrome. People who just wanna be nighttime friends forever

kind of thing, right? They're like, I wanna stay in this lane of dark joy forever. I know, I know. And at a certain point you're like, yo. That's not good. Like, this is not great. That's not good, you're dying. You great. That's not good. You're dying.

You're dying. You're dead. You just died. Yeah. Okay. Sex on the beach with a tarp. Yeah. You're dead. Right. You live outside. We're concerned. Is what you're telling me. We're concerned as a group. Because the things that you said that are the dark joys is things that like people in their darkest times have to find the light.

And so they're like, hey, at least I got laid on the beach. Sweetie, you live outside. You know what I mean? Let's help you. Let's help you. No, that's right. That's actually great. That's super helpful for process, talking that through.

Cause I've been stumped by that bit for a while. Like I think it's funny on its face. Like the examples are funny and I think people kind of get it, but it's a little bit like, what else? Right, totally. If this, what else? Yeah, yeah.

["The Final Thing"] The final thing is working it out for a cause. Is there an organization that you like to contribute to? Yeah, can we do Trevor Project? That's right. You did this the other day for Who Wants to Be a Millionaire, and it's a great organization that supports LGBTQ youth.

And yeah, I think it's a great organization and we'll contribute to them. Encourage people to contribute as well. Atsuko Akatsuka, so happy for you. My baby. My baby. I'm so happy for you. You are outdoing yourself, which I didn't even think you could do, because I thought that you were already soaring into the heavens. I don't know where you are now, but I love it. Thank you, Mike.

I feel that way about you all the time. And we're both dizzy. To my dizzy king. To my dizziest queen. To... We're dizzy royals. We're a dizzy duo. We're the dizzy royals. We're working it out, cause it's not done We're working it out, cause there's no...

That's gonna do it for another episode of Working It Out. You can follow Atsuko on Instagram at Atsuko Comedy, A-T-S-U-K-O Comedy. You can see Father, her special, on Hulu and Disney Plus. You can watch the full video of this episode on our YouTube channel at Mike Birbiglia. You're gonna want to see this one, if only for Atsuko's outfit. So good. My outfit? It's fine, it's fine. Check that out, subscribe.

We're gonna be posting more and more videos. Check out Burbigs.com to sign up for the mailing list and to be the first to know about my upcoming shows, including the Q&A I'm doing with Hasan Minhaj in New York City this week at the 92nd Street Y. Our producers of Working It Out are myself, along with Peter Salomon, Joseph Urbiglia, and Mabel Lewis, Associate Producer Gary Simons.

Sound Mix by Shub Saren, Supervising Engineer Kate Balinski. Special thanks to Jack Anjanof and Bleachers for their music. Special thanks as always to my wife, J-Hope Stein, the poet, and our daughter, Una, who built the original Radio Fort made of pillows. Thanks most of all who are listening.

If you enjoy the show, do us a favor and rate us and review us on Apple Podcasts. We've done 170 something episodes at this point, all free, no paywall. Tell your friends, tell your enemies, tell your daytime friends and your nighttime friends. That's right, tell your daytime friends, hey, check out this great podcast.

It's so wholesome and inspirational. It's about creative process and having fun with jokes. Then tell your daytime friends, hey, check out this great podcast. It's so wholesome and inspirational. It's about creative process and having fun with jokes. Then tell your nighttime friends, check out this great podcast. It's very dark topics like death and insecurity, and they make jokes about all of it. The twist, same podcast. That's right, everybody.

Thanks a lot for coming around. We're working it out. We'll see you next time.