Mike Birbiglia's Working It Out - 179. Bob Odenkirk: The Art of Anger in Comedy

Episode Date: July 28, 2025

Bob Odenkirk was already a comedy legend (SNL, The Ben Stiller Show, Mr. Show with Bob and David) before he took a left turn into dramatic acting with Breaking Bad and Better Call Saul. Now he’s entered yet another new phase as an unlikely action star in films like the Nobody series. Bob sits down with Mike to discuss how anger works in comedy and action films, the stress of making Better Call Saul, and the time Bob played Mike’s brother on a TV pilot.Please Consider Donating To: Food On Foot

I think there's a correlation between anger and comedy, certainly. Yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah, because I think it is, in some ways comedy is it's like a corralling of anger into something that can be funny. I see it as a value, but also, Mike, I walk around, I'm like, I'm having a good day.

I'm having a good day. What the fuck? What the fuck? Mother fuck? You just got, you know, whatever. That is the voice of the great Bob Odenkirk, yes! We got another one of my absolute favorite all-time comedians, actors, and writers today.

In addition to having this unbelievable career where he created Mr. Show and was a writer on SNL and did all this work at Second City and worked with Chris Farley and all these unbelievable things, Breaking Bad, Better Call Saul, recently a Tony-nominated performance in Glencair and Glen Ross, he is also an action movie star. He has a new movie coming out called Nobody 2. It is a sequel to Nobody 1. He also has this amazing book called Comedy Comedy Comedy Drama. That's four words, comedy comedy comedy drama.

I think it's one of the best books about comedy in the process of becoming a comedy writer-performer that I've read, so couldn't endorse that more highly. Thanks, everybody, by the way, who has watched The Good Life on Netflix. The outpouring of messages and emails and direct messages on Instagram supporting it have meant the world to me. People posting about it on Instagram and their stories has meant the world to me. People posting about it on Instagram and their stories

has meant the world to me. Thank you, thank you, thank you. I have a few live shows coming up. We're currently, you know, I'm spending a lot of my energy this summer writing my next movie as a follow-up to Don't Think Twice. But I've also got a few live stand-up shows where I'm in support of John Mulaney's New Hour, along with Nick

Kroll and Fred Armisen. The four of us will be together in New Haven, Connecticut, Bethel, New York, Portland, Maine, as well as Halifax. And then in September, we'll be in Vancouver at Stanley Park. Tickets at birbigs.com. This is, man, one of my favorite chats we've ever had on the podcast, an instant top 10. We get into the nuts and bolts of comedy craft. We talk about filmmaking, parenting,

long before Breaking Bad and Better Call Saul. Bob also played my brother in a pilot I did for CBS in 2008 that never got picked up, but it was really cool to work with him. Hopefully we'll work on another thing someday. He's in a new movie called Nobody 2. It opens August 15th. It is wild and fun.

Enjoy my conversation with the great Bob Odenkirk. Ooh. Ooh, workin' it. Between doing action movies, doing Better Call Saul, doing decades of comedy, I feel like you're- Exhausted. Yeah, you're exhausted.

Yes, I am. Well, your career is like, it's like an example, it's like a piece of advice basically, of like, don't limit yourself. Yeah, yeah. Well, I'll tell you this. I was riding my bike around Albuquerque on weekends, which is what I would do to de-stress

from better call Saul, especially the first two years. And there's, I think, I wanna say 300 miles of bike trails in Albuquerque. And I would go ride for five hours. My gosh. And I needed it, man. The first two years were so stressful. Really?

Oh God, I was like. What about it specifically? The amount of lines, just can I do this at all? I mean, I didn't, I took one acting class in college. Yeah. I had to learn a lot. I mean, I was learning by doing it with a camera in my face

and you better fucking learn now. You have 10 seconds to learn how to act because we're going. And the pressure was just through the roof. And I knew the writing was great, but also it was challenging writing. If there's a texture or value to a monologue or a conversation piece that's scripted,

you have to find that. You have to bring it out without being overt about it or being too loud about it. You have to get good at acting. And you have to do it right now. And everyone's watching and they're spending a lot of money and they're gonna watch it all the way around the world. And it's, you know, see, I'm good at saying yes to things,

Broadway show or an action movie. But then when you get to doing it, I'm like, what am I doing? What did I think I could do? But you have a history of people giving you more to do. Yeah, yeah. It's like, so in that case. Starting with Saturday Night do. Yeah, yeah. So in that case- Starting with Saturday Night Live.

Right, right. So Saturday Live, you know- Which I didn't really deliver on and I talk about it in my book about, I was finally good. I mean, Lauren might look at my journey and say, well, that's just normal. Yeah. It took two years, you took two years

to figure out how the fucking show works. Yeah. And in the third year, you were helpful. That's fine. Sure. And then I leave, which is not actually what you're supposed to do if you, you know, I really feel like that's where I owe him money. Yeah, but then they did your sketch with Farley

after you left. You say this is your book. They did it verbatim, which is literally what, as comedians, you constantly hear people go, they stole my sketch, they did it. Oh, they gave you credit. Oh, they did give you credit, okay. Oh, yeah, no, even though I'd left the show,

my name's on, they paid me, they gave me credit. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But that sketch, I mean, living in a van down by the river, when I was growing up, I would say is the North star of sketch comedy. It is a perfect comedy sketch. It is. Well, what it is that's so good

is it's got good structure to it, but it's, especially one reason I think maybe you like it is comedy sketch writers especially want the writing to matter. They want the writing to be the star. But the truth is in sketch comedy, the performance is the star. It is 70% performance, 30% writing,

maybe more performance, maybe 80%. It just is. That's what that field is the quality of that field. And that's sort of a, you could say maybe a 50-50 sketch. Maybe it's 60 performance, 40 writing, cause the writing is structurally kind of perfect. I got lucky, but it's closer to an equal apportionment. But, and then the other thing about it is

you could do it as a, I could do that sketch as the motivational speaker and it'd be pretty funny. Yeah, you'd be great. My natural rage would be on display and fun, but no one could beat Chris. I mean, there's no one who could do it better than Chris. I mean, it was a character that he was kind of doing,

this coach character, which is why I went home and wrote it. After we had done an improvisation where we were doing an anti-drug speech, it was improvised to a high school group and he did his coach. And Matt Foley, I don't know if he used the name or not, but that is a name he came up with. But he did that, everything, the swagger and stuff.

Well, it seems like- And then I took it and I just, it really was based on kind of Tony Robbins. Sure, yeah. And which was very popular at the time. And I think Tony's story too is that he was like a fat kid when he was young or something like, I used to be this, now I'm this.

And I'm like, what about a guy who's like, I'm still this. You don't wanna be me right now. I think the reason why it works, and you tell me what else is working, but it's like, it works because it's simple and it's hypocrisy. Yeah. It's a character who's like, you need to do this thing,

but I can't do it, but you should do it. Yeah, and also he's so in love with himself and his performance. He knows he's a good presenter of his shit. Well, look at what we have here, Bill Shakespeare. He's like really loving himself. So he's happy. He's happily just putting himself down

and cause it's Chris Farley, come on, he's the best. Yeah, I always thought there was a movie in that, but of course a sad movie, about a guy who really lives in a van down by the river and he's thrice divorced. And he's angry. And that's actually one of the things that you and I have in common.

When you came to my show at the Beacon, we talked about it afterwards. Our dads both had like anger stuff. Yeah, I feel like if my dad taught me two things. He didn't mean to teach it to me. He gave to me genetically the ability to go from zero to 80 in a second of anger, which I do in Glengarry. Yes, yes.

And my dad was like that. And so I feel like I just genetically got that. Yeah. And he taught me how to swing a golf club. That's good. And I don't play golf much, but if I do and I play, let's say I, if I'm gonna play, I hit a range for three days beforehand.

And within three days, I've got a decent swing. I think there's a correlation between anger and comedy, certainly. Yeah. Oh yeah, for sure. I think that you see a lot of people, like you and I and many others, who had some angry dads. Because I think it is, in some ways comedy,

it's like a corralling of anger into something that can be funny. Yeah. Well, a lot of times it's one of the funnest things. David Cross and I, we would do Mr. Show. It's amazing how often in the morning we would do our, you know, generating ideas, just sitting there, oftentimes with the newspaper out,

but it would, the sentence would start with, you know, piss pissed me off. That's right. And it's some stupid little thing. Yeah. You know, person in front of me, I was trying to get fucking coffee this morning and this fucking person couldn't figure out, you know,

how to make change for like, and you're like, it just turns into a comedy bit, you know? I feel that's true of a lot of Larry David's stuff, you know? Oh my God, yeah. It's, and part of the fun is the degree of anger at the small thing. It's not an important thing that you're that angry about. Right.

You're so angry. Right. But that's fun for an audience, right? Something sets you off. Yeah, it's the thing that your dad had of going from zero to 80. Yeah, yeah. On something that can be for an audience, right? Yeah, it's the thing that your dad had of going from zero to 80. Yeah, yeah. On something that can be tiny.

Yeah, yeah. Which is hilarious. And I still have it. Yeah. And I don't consider it a good thing in real life. And you know what bums me out about it the most is, what's good about it is it's good in acting. It's kind of like a lack of barriers, emotional barriers,

an ability to fly between feelings, feelings, which is- It's crucial. I see it as a value, but also Mike, I walk around, I'm like, I'm having a good day. I'm having a good day. What the fuck? What the fuck?

Motherfucker, you just got, you know, whatever, some little thing. I'm like a good, what the fuck? What the fuck, motherfucker? You just got, you know, whatever, some little thing. I'm like, really? You just did that? What is wrong with you? Your life couldn't be better. And you are having a great day. And this small thing happened.

It's not a plus. So I wanna, I really need to take a chapter here now and work on myself. Cause part of it too, is that I got into this avenue of acting and these action films were, I felt a lot of pressure there, Mike, cause I'm working in an area I didn't start in and I've had to learn in the last 10 years,

try to learn quickly, try to pay attention to the people around me and understand what matters in this world. But also, it was almost by accident, like, well, slow down. You didn't choose this. I think I gotta get back to maybe some comedy and something that I think I've felt very alone in this pursuit.

And of course you have a team around, you have other writers, you have producers and stuff. But I don't think, Mr. Show, even though I had a great deal of power there, felt like a team effort still. And I like that. Yeah, it's interesting like- Are you alone doing your show?

Yeah, it's true. Yeah, I have a director and a team of producers and my brother and my wife, but it is lonesome. Being a standup is lonesome. Yeah. It's a lot of times you're out there in Terre Haute, Indiana, just going, okay, it's just me. Hence the podcast.

Okay, yeah, exactly. But you've worked with, I mean, you do these action films, You Better Call Saul, and even like Greta Gerwig's movie, Steven Spielberg's movie. I mean, you're working with huge directors. Do you feel like when you're working with someone

like Greta or Spielberg, are you learning as a director? Cause you are a director. Are you in your director brain thinking, oh, I could use, I could do that? I think the one thing I learned from directing three films is the first job you have as a director is picking the right story.

And the story that you don't just go, oh, that would be fun, but that you understand why you should tell that story. And I don't think I really did that particularly well. I think Melvin Goes to Dinner was the first film I made, a very low budget film. And based on a play is the best film that I made. And it's because nobody was asking me to make it as a movie.

I wasn't getting paid any money to make it as a movie. I just could see, I had a vision for how to put that on screen. It was oozing out of us. Yes. And the other films were more like a task of how would you direct this? How would you make this?

And I had ideas, but they weren't the best. They weren't great. They didn't deliver a great film. And so that's your first job. And I imagine I might one day again, have that feeling about a story, but I haven't yet. I haven't yet. Certainly not the action films that I've made.

I haven't said I should direct this. I should direct this, yeah. No, no, and the opposite, I've said, you get somebody who knows this stuff. And I've certainly worked hard on the writing and structure of the story, but even there I back off, especially with nobody. I mean, I sort of, to some extent with the action films,

I sort of say, I'm here to work on it until we get to page 50. And once we get to page 50 and the big action is going, you tell me where to stand. Because until, once that starts, I don't know what's, you get into a magical, mythical world of violence. And well, I don't have any bearings. And I can't tell you.

Have you gotten advice from like a Keanu Reeves and well, I don't have any bearings and I can't tell you. Have you gotten advice from like a Keanu Reeves or a Tom Cruise about how to do action films? How to be an action star? No, it's all learning on my own. And the one thing that's the greatest challenge for me is, and I fucked up The greatest challenge for me is, and I fucked up two times on screen

that I don't wanna tell you what. And it's in the final cut. But I also have fixed it a few times. So what I do that is wrong, that I do wrong, is one of the things that I thought I could, when I thought about doing this, when I saw the opportunity was possible, I thought a lot about what can I bring to this genre?

Yeah. Well, I really am not super handsome, super young or super muscular. So I'm really a guy you don't expect to be the hero. Sure. And to win the fight. So one thing I can do is bring a vulnerability and an honest presence, a surprise

when I kick into some gear. Cause you really don't expect it, no matter. You can put the rock, you can put glasses on him and a tie and he, you still go, he's gonna kick somebody's ass. That's right. So he's an accountant. Right. You just like finish the he's gonna kick somebody's ass. Yeah. That's right. Say he's an accountant. Right.

You just like finish the book so you can kick the ass. Right, it's like the, yes, the adage about the, once there's a gun on stage, the gun's gonna go off during the play. The rock is gonna kick someone's ass. From the first, you know, shot. That's the gun. And I'm not.

Yes. And so I thought I could bring a vulnerability. Well, that vulnerability, and I wanted to play pain. Like obviously not real pain, but I wanted to at least play, you know, ah, fuck, you know, that hurt. And holding stuff and limping and kind of building it as the fight goes, I'm getting less flexible.

So I thought I could play that. But I've discovered using some sensitivity and instinct that you can be too vulnerable. Oh, interesting. They still want a hero. Yes. And so- Right, the audience wants a hero. Yeah, and if you're too weak,

there's a point I think where you're watching that person you go like, I can't be on his side. Yeah, and if you're too weak, there's a point I think where you're watching that person you go like, I can't be on his side. Yeah. He's, I think he's gonna get killed or he's feeling too much pain. And I think I've taken it too far at times. Yeah. And I did, I'm proud of myself in nobody too.

There was a scene, it was towards the end and I shot it and we shot it and it was cold and it was an all night shoot and we got the shot. Okay, we got it. And I was like, wait, let me watch it back. I watched it back. I said, I gotta do it again. I gotta do it again.

Because I was just being too vulnerable, too hurt, too in pain, too, and I'm like, I can't, I can't keep cheering for that guy almost. Oh, that's interesting. And so we did it again and I said, and only use that take. Oh, wow. Only use that take. Yeah. Do not touch the other takes. Anyway.

We played Brothers on a TV pilot that didn't go to air. Yeah, good one. Pretty good, I think. Yeah. It was like in 2008 and we should play Brothers again. I think so. We gotta figure out a movie where it makes sense that-

I actually have a story. You have a story? I totally do. Are you serious? You have a Brothers story? Well, a? I totally do. Are you serious? You have a brother's story? Well, a brother's in it and it's important. Oh. And are you, did you write it yet?

I've been working on it, yeah. Oh my gosh. It's a, it's like the opposite of everything I've been doing. No kidding. It's like, like, well, Nicole Hollis Center and I were talking about it. Oh, I love Nicole. It's like a about it. Oh, I love Nicole. So it's like a Nicole type.

Oh, I love Nicole. Someone my favorite filmmaker. Yeah, so I continue to develop it, Nicole, if you're watching. And I'm gonna keep trying to get that to happen, but it would be great if you wanted it. Oh, I would love that. Well, it's funny because you're saying this thing

that rings true to me so much, which is about movies, which is, yeah, it has to be a story that you have to make. It has to be. And I feel like you learn that, you can learn that the hard way, because movies, people don't realize this, it takes you years to write a movie, at least a year to write a movie.

It takes you a year to shoot a movie, basically a year to edit. And by the time it gets out, it's like at least three to five years that you've spent on one story. So that better be a good story. And when it comes out in the world, it will be attacked. Yes, yes it will be. And you wanna feel like it was worth it.

I had to try, I couldn't not try to write and make that movie. And whether you think you pulled it off and all the critics are wrong, or you think, I'm sorry, the critics are right. I just didn't finish this thing. Yeah. I didn't get it. You still wanna feel like I did everything I could

and I wanted to tell that story. Cause when you feel like I didn't need to, I didn't want to fully, I wasn't all there and it didn't work, that's the fucking worst. That's pain fucking worst. That's pain. And you're saying the critics are right and I didn't try as hard as I could have.

Awful. That's the fucking worst. It's the worst. First you wanna call every critic and go, you're right. What you wanna be able to say is you're right, but fuck you, man, I had to do that. I had to do that. I had to do that. I stand up for myself.

Well, it's funny, like, I just saw you in Glengarry Glen Ross, and you're brilliant in it. Your character is an amazing David Mamet character who has high highs and low lows and high highs. From one line to the next. But what's funny about it is seeing within a week of itself, seeing you in Glenn Gary, Glenn Ross,

reading your book, your book is a lot of that. Your book is you're up, you're down, you're up, you're a big star, you have nothing, you're frustrated. Do you feel like you drew on that in the performance? I'll tell you the truth. oh, for sure, for sure. I do draw on all the ups and downs, yes. I will say in my book, I had a great desire to talk as much as possible about failure.

And I think I did, but the truth is I didn't share all the failure. Right, there's more. There's more, that didn't make it into the book because it was too much. Yeah. It also, honest, let's face it, it's hard to talk about a TV show that you maybe spent eight months on

that you made or didn't make, made the pilot, rewrote the pilot four times, and nobody's ever seen it and you can't read it anywhere. It's hard to share that with an audience and go like, oh, it was good here and it was bad there. And like, I don't know, I can't read it, I can't see it. I just gotta believe you that this is, how do I know any of that is true?

That's right. But I mean, I wrote pilots that got passed on. I wrote and made pilots that I went, oh, fuck, that's just, I didn't figure it out. And I wrote pilots that I thought, this is really good. And I had one network executive once call me and go, this is the best pilot I've ever read. We're passing on it.

That's funny. And I knew. The best pilot I've ever read, I'm passing on it. And I knew he was right. I knew that it was solid. It's just a fickle business. Like it. I think, yeah.

And then the why they pick one show over another can be reasons that seem empty and stupid, but maybe it pan out or they have a whole different job than you. Your job is to think about what you care about and a point of view you have on it, something you worth sharing with the world and then pursue it. And then their job is to decide what to show people.

I don't know. I met you and you wouldn't remember this when you did the naked improv sketch at Radio City. I was at that show. So crazy. It was unbelievable. It's such a thin premise.. So crazy. It was unbelievable. It's such a thin premise. We did it probably seven years earlier. And we did it at our first time

we ever did anything together, me and David, which was the Montreal Comedy Festival. Where he invited me to come up with them. And we just made up shit that day and did it that night somewhere. And we did that bit. And we talked about if we ever did a big charity event, this would be a bit to do.

And we did it one more time. I don't remember where. And then we got invited to do Comic Relief 8 and we're like, well, we're doing that sketch. It was on HBO and I was in the live audience and the premise is basically you're doing improv. The premise is? Yeah. Hey everybody, we've had a good time.

We had done some bit earlier. Had a good time tonight. We're actors from LA, David Cross, Bob Odenkirk. I am, actually David's a teacher of improvisation and I've been taking his classes and we're gonna do a, if you're up for it, we'd like to do an improv for you. And David goes, okay, we're gonna have fun.

It's called Naked Phrase Guess. Bob, you're gonna, I'm gonna ask the audience for a, you're gonna leave the stage. I'm gonna ask the audience for a phrase. Then I'm gonna tell it, then you're gonna come back on stage and we will do a scene and you will have to try to guess the phrase

from the clues of acting the scene. Yeah. I go, that's great, that sounds like fun. I've never done that, that's great. And then he goes, okay, great. So go off stage, where you can't hear, we'll have somebody monitor the door and take your clothes off and come back out here

when you're told to come back out. I go, yeah, great, great. I go, wait, wait, wait. Wait, I'm sorry, what? Just go, you have to go where you can't hear. So otherwise you're gonna hear the phrase. So go off to that room, we have a room for you. Take your clothes off and then come back out on stage

and we'll get going. And I go, okay, I'm sorry. You want me to take my clothes off? Yeah, well, it's called naked freeze, I guess. And that's what it, it's part of the thing. Okay, oh, I don't know, I don't know. I've never done this. Okay, and I go and I take my clothes off.

I did put a sock over my, and I put my hand over the sock. And then I came out in Radio City Music Hall, David had gotten a phrase. And then part of the joke is that I get the phrase pretty quickly, but he keeps going. And the audience is like, he said the phrase. And at some point I'm sensing

that I'm just being played with and I go, you fucking asshole, you fucking lied to me. I go, you said it, whatever, and everyone cheers for me. Yeah, the crowd went nuts. I thought it was like one of the most punk rock live comedy bits I've ever seen. I couldn't believe you did it. It's insane, stupid.

And I was totally, I had no issue with it and I could do it today and proudly show off my 62 year old body. But the truth is the hardest part is when you're done with the sketch. As soon as the sketch is over, you're like, I'm fucking naked. What the fuck happened?

And I know that's weird because you're like, you're sentient, you know you got naked and got, but again, there's something wrong with me, which was probably one reason I have some facility as an actor and I'm able to do that and not until the sketch is over, am I embarrassed at all. Right, because you say this in the book, you're like, I wouldn't, as Bob Odenkirk, get naked,

but that's what the character, He's gotta get naked. He's gotta get naked. Look, when I watch myself in editing bays, I've never said, cut me or cut me back or that, I say that guy. That guy, yeah. That guy's, it's enough of that guy. Yeah.

I'm talking about me, but I don't say, I just don't think of it that way. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. It's a little fucked up because it's... Certain type of disassociation. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

So I met you at the party after comic relief that night. I came up to you, oh my God, I'm a college improviser and I love that sketch and it was amazing. And you were talking to Bob Zamuda who is Andy Kaufman's comedy partner. Legendary Bob Zamuda. And it was really funny, I'll always remember this. You go, listen, I'm talking to Bob Zamuda right now.

I can't talk to you, but good luck. And it was like, I appreciated the candor of it. Yeah. Do you feel like that's indicative of like a certain type of candor you have? Cause that's so specific. I do think that all I know how to do is sometimes just being simply honest is just the very best thing

you can ever do in awkward moments. I'm awkward right now, this is upsetting to me or whatever you wanna say. We do the sign line and the autograph line after the Broadway show. I don't know when this became part of Broadway. Yes. It's fucking, you have to do it.

The stage door. You fucking have to do it. Stage door's a big thing. I missed one night, I got a call from the producers. Wow. I heard you're not doing that. I go, wait, I skipped one night. I thought it's not part of the producers. Wow. I heard you're not doing that. I go, wait, I skipped one night. I thought it's not part of the job.

Right. No, but you know, the audience kind of, I'm like, I mean, really? You want to put that in the contract next time? You know? But I get it. It has become a tradition. It's a culture.

It's not cool. We just did a show for you, maybe two in the day, maybe two. And now I have to sign 80 fucking autographs and you know, but whatever. The people are, couldn't be nicer. Yeah. And I get, you get compliments from people,

but it can be weird. There can be weird moments. Yeah. And you know, the best way, I think the best way to handle it is just say, this is a weird moment. Yeah. You want something from me that I don't have time to give.

I understand that, but I can't do it. And just say as honestly, simply, you just call it for what it is. as possible what's happening here and why it's not. Anyway, not that you needed that explanation. No, no, it's funny, because you have a thing that I try to practice too, which is you're obsessed with, like, you know, if you have a thing that I try to practice too, which is you're obsessed with, like, you know,

if you have a movie script, you have friends over and do a reading of it. Yeah, yeah. You know, you kind of workshop things. I always say to people who watch the show or listen to the show, if you're a creative, try to find a few people who do the same thing and just read each other your stuff

and talk about your stuff. And that's kind of always my advice. And it's like, how did you arrive at that as an idea? Yeah, maybe you could say it's taken a little while. I do think, you know, I had a strange misplaced confidence when I was very young doing it, but you need that too. I had a strange misplaced confidence when I was very young doing it, but you need that too. You need this kind of weird like, oh, fuck it, I can do this better than them

when you're like, no, you definitely can't. You need that weird drive and certainty or maybe just the joy of doing it is so great that it gets you through. Yeah. But I'll tell you, that's been a hard thing for me to navigate is how much I share the decision-making with other people.

I came out of Mr. Show feeling like that was fun. I'm really proud of it, but I was too much of a, I was too powerful in that room and I was too demanding of people that my way or the highway. Yeah. I'm proud of it. I think everyone is,

but can I be a more collaborative person? And I would say I went and made some projects where I was too collaborative, where I said, I don't like that thing, but these two people like it, so it stays in. And that can be a mistake too, because it's like, it's hard to modulate where, I think when you're directing a movie

and you're writing a movie, you no matter, you gotta try to see other people's points of view, see what they're pointing to when they say, why don't you do this with that? Why doesn't this happen? See what they're pointing to. Maybe you don't use their choice of where it goes, but they're pointing to. Maybe you don't use their choice of where it goes,

but they're pointing to something, uncertainty or weakness maybe. And it could be a weakness just in your presentation of like, they're not hearing what you think is important. So they're going another way. So you have to make that clearer, you know? But you do have to own it in the end. Yeah.

You know, as your movie proves, you do have to go like, I just think it needs to be this way. You have to. Right. Well, it's the difference between you having the vision and you supporting someone else's vision, I think. Yeah. I'd say these action films have been very collaborative.

And because again, there's a point in those films where I don't know what I'm doing. And I know that, and I say, I don't know. Right, you're the vessel. I don't know what's happening. I don't know what you can do here now. Or I'm page 60 and I just got thrown across the room and that guy has sent 80 people after me.

And I don't know where to start with that. You've had, in your movie, there's like a home, in the first one, there's a home invasion. You had a home invasion? Two. Two home invasions, yeah. One was very disturbing. One was also disturbing, but a little less so. What was the first one?

Well, I really won't tell the whole story, but I woke up, my kids were young, my son was 12, my daughter was 10, and it was like 6 a.m. And it was like 6 a.m. And I got up, our house was kind of split into two sides of the bedrooms over here, and then this side of the kitchen and the living room. And I walk into this area and to get the breakfast started and stuff,

and all the windows are open and the door is open. And I thought, fuck. First of all, the cat got out, of course. We gotta find the goddamn cat. And then also, but who did that? And then I thought, well, okay, okay, okay, okay. There was 2 a.m., there was a skunk. My wife got up, she opened all the windows,

the door fell open and she put the cat downstairs. So that must be what happened, a skunk, because that can happen, not that it happens a lot. So I tell my son, go downstairs, see if you can find the cat and I'm gonna go outside and see if I can find the cat under the porch area. It shut all these windows.

So I go out there, I'm looking, looking, looking. And my son comes up and he goes, there's a man downstairs. Oh my gosh. And I go, okay, do you know who it is? He goes, no. And I go, okay, we'll go to the other side of the house, shut the door, tell mom and you guys stay there. I'm gonna call the police.

I call the police. I open the front door. I get out my baseball bat. Yeah, sure. Yeah, come on. Come on, Louisville slugger, let's go. You know why we got those bats. So dumb, so dumb, but what the fuck else am I gonna do? Slugger, let's go. You know why we got those bats.

So dumb. So dumb, but what the fuck else am I gonna do? I don't know. I didn't have a golf club nearby. Then what? Train? Get mace? I'm on the edge of my seat. Pepper spray? Then what? And I yelled downstairs, I go, the police are on their way. You can walk out the front door if you want.

I'll let you walk out. Just come up and walk out and you'll be fine. The police are on their way. Wow. Nothing. No, said it again, nothing. Of course, if the guy had come up the stairs, I'm standing there with a baseball bat.

I don't know. Police show up, go downstairs. Time goes by, a few minutes, comes back up. He goes, I called for backup. I mean, I think I counted 13 cops, two detectives and 11 cops with guns, go downstairs. They eventually brought the guy up. He was, I don't wanna go into the specifics,

but he was not anyone I knew. And he was clearly like a meth out. His eyes were going two different directions. And then a few years later, not dissimilar really. We woke up, car was gone. My guitar was gone. all the computers are gone. And on security cameras, the guy comes in at 2 a.m. He was able to open the garage from the remote

that was in the car that was parked outside. He goes in, he takes all the important stuff, puts it in my wife's car and drives away and shuts the garage door. He was a pro. He was there to take things, not to interact with anyone, not to have any problems. Gotta respect that.

Yeah, no weapons on him, I'm sure. Had a plan. Had a vision. Yes. He's an artist of sorts. And so the way those two incidents are operative to making these films is, the feelings I had regarding those incidents, it's just, we're always fresh.

Yeah. Years later. Yeah, how could you ever shake that? Years later. Yeah. And I'm a nonviolent guy. Yeah. But honestly, you let me have a few minutes

with that first guy. Yeah. I don't wanna see it. I would throw anything I could at him. Yeah, all your dad's anger come out at that guy. I don't give a shit. Yeah. I don't give a shit how high he was.

Yeah. I don't give a shit what his problems were. Yeah. It's your baby bear. Yeah. It's animalistic. It's you're protecting your family. And all I, what's potentially good about a movie

with such expression is you get to express it. You get to unlock it. Yes. And I like just acknowledging that it exists. Yeah. Yes. And not pretending that you don't feel those things. Yeah, yeah.

I do feel those things. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. This is a thing that we loved that you said, which is out of a hundred movies, there's two classics, there's 12 worth seeing, there's another 15 that are fine, the rest are just a mess. Why do you think that is?

And what are your two good movies? What are two good movies? There's too many moving parts in a movie. Yeah. There's just too much that you, do you have to have a degree of luck and magic for it to come to you. And you should kill yourself when you make a movie

and you should work on every detail and you should take it to the limit. And when you're in editing, here's what you should do, everything you can think of to make it work. That's right. But it still may not work at all. Amen. That's just movies. That's movies.

And honestly, the most button-down films, obviously Kubrick is referenced as a filmmaker who was wildly detail-oriented. Yes, perfectionists. I'm not a huge fan of his stuff. No, it doesn't make me feel anything. Yeah. Yeah. It's kind of like a painting that- The closest for No, it doesn't make me feel anything. Yeah. It's kind of like a painting that-

The closest for me is like Full Metal Jacket. Right. Where I'm like, oh, it shakes me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And God bless him. And maybe the Shining. Maybe the Shining. Yeah, I'm glad for the fans. He's got massive fans and I respect them.

They're smart, but it's kind of like, you know. But what's your, okay, so if it's not Kubrick, then who really puts you in that zone? Oh, well, I love the movie Chinatown, I think is- Yeah, Chinatown's amazing. My favorite film. Truly. American Graffiti is a great film.

Yes, Ron Howard. Really great film. Ron Howard and- I want to tell you what I think your best acting- Yeah. Maybe ever is. Yeah. Not Daniel Day Lewis. Okay. He ever is. Yeah. Not Daniel Day-Lewis.

Okay. He's great. Very good. Ricky Gervais in the first office. Unbelievable. No argument. No argument. He's fantastic. It's crazy how real he feels

and how much there's layers in what he's doing. How much like pain is inside this absolute clown of a human. Clearly tapped into something personal in himself. Yeah. It really ranks. Yeah, I think so too. Slow round. Who were you jealous of?

Everybody right now. I really am. It's crazy. I've just done this thing. But after the last five years, I feel so off balance. Yeah? Yeah. Who's the person you thought of that you didn't say specifically? Oh, who I'm jealous of? Who you're jealous of.

Gee, I, anybody who's still got little kids at home growing up. Oh. Yeah, there's no question I knew what I was doing when I had kids growing up. Yeah. I was being a dad. I mean, that was my job. And I didn't have to ask myself, what am I doing here?

What am I doing? How can I be a part of this world? How can I be meaningful today? I didn't have to ask that question because the fucking answer is pick up everything between here and the door. Yeah, that's right. And make sure they get to school and have a laugh with them.

Yeah. Life was, I understood my purpose. Best answer. And you know, I'm surrounded by these guys who have kids, you know, Keir and Colkin and Bill Burr. And I envy them. I envy them as stressed as they are, because they have to do this job and takes them away.

I guess you know who you are when you leave here. You absolutely know who you are. You're a dad. Anyway. No, I love that. What's the best piece of advice someone's given you that you used? Oh, that I used?

Daniel Bernhardt told me, my trainer, in a kind of an angry way, not that he was angry at me, but he was like, we were exercising and I was like talking about losing weight, not that I wanna lose weight, but I've just said come across in our conversation. He goes, you don't lose weight by working out. Yeah.

You lose it by eating right. He's angry. Yep. I go, what? He goes, people think you fucking lose weight by working out. It's 80% diet. And from that moment on, I cut way back on sugar. And it's been amazing, amazing.

I did not think that was gonna be the answer. Why, what did you think it would be? Because. Something about writing or something. Or being alive. I mean. One of the most pedigreed comedy writers of the last century. I'm like, what's the best piece of advice

someone's giving you? He's like, you gotta cut sugar. You gotta cut carbs, you just gotta. Yeah. Arguably, I've been the most, the biggest gym rat of the last six years. Can you remember a moment in your life where you were kind of an inauthentic version of yourself?

Oh, a lot of times. Yeah. Pretty much any interview I do. Oh, really? Well. But this feels pretty real. On the red carpet. Oh, the red carpet. No, not here.

This feels pretty much how you feel. But any red carpet interview. Yeah. Any red carpet interview. Look, look, look. It's a thing. Did you ever think you'd be a celebrity? No.

No. No. Yeah, I thought I'd be a writer. Yeah, I thought I'd be a writer. Chase React. And I understood that PR was part of that at some point. But the amount of PR that I've done, what I asked to do, I mean, of course it appeals to your ego.

People wanna, what do you think? What do you do? Where'd you come from? And that's pretty great. It's pretty nice, special feeling, but I never trained for it, planned for it, thought much about it. And at some point I realized what you have to do

is you have to remember that you are sitting at a wedding table and it's not your wedding. And the uncle of the person getting married is sitting next to you and the neighbor and a young person who's around you, or younger than you, a nephew, and you don't know them and they don't know you, they don't really know what you do.

And they are always, that's who you're talking to when you're on a talk show, when you're on a red carpet. And you've got to be polite and you have to be clear. And when people go, you're better call Saul. You have to go, yes, I play that character. My name is Bob Odenkirk and I'm an actor. And I was on a show called Breaking Bad and Better Call Saul.

And you may think you sound like an ass, but you're not, because there's a bunch of people watching who are going, oh, I never knew that. Breaking Bad, I've heard of that show. And we all think we can just be ourselves and chat and make comments and be calm and casual. You can't. You have to be on your present tape.

And these are kind strangers who have somehow through YouTube or the TV that was just on being forced to listen to you. They don't know who you are. Yes. The final thing we do is working out for a cause. Is there an organization that you like to support? The final thing we do is working out for a cause. Is there an organization that you like to support and we will contribute to them and then link to them in the show notes.

Oh, great. Food on Foot is an amazing organization in LA that I help out and they really have a program that helps people who are unhoused find work and housing. That's fantastic. It's a long-term thing. They work with people over the course of a long period of time.

And it is wonderful and they've done amazing work. We'll contribute to Food on Foot. We'll link in the show notes. And Bob Odenkirk, such an absolute honor. I barely have the composure to speak with you because I'm in such awe of all of your work. Well, that's very nice of you. Working it out, cause it's not done.

Working it out, cause there's no. That's gonna do it for another episode of Working It Out. You can follow Bob on Instagram at TheRealBobOdinKirk. Check out Nobody Too in theaters August 15th. The full video this one, and like two people looking in a mirror, basically twins. It's on YouTube. Subscribe because we're gonna be posting

more and more videos. Check out Berbigs.com to sign up for the mailing list and be the first to know about my upcoming shows. Our producers of Working It Out are myself, along with Peter Salomon, Joseph Perbiglia, and Mabel Lewis. Associate producer Gary Simons. Sound mix by Shub Saren, supervising engineer Kate Bolinski. Special thanks to Jack Antonoff and Bleachers for their music.

Special thanks to my wife, the poet J. Hope Stein. And our daughter Una who built the original radio fort made of pillows. Thanks most of all to you who are listening. If you enjoy this podcast, please do us a little favor. Go on Apple Podcasts, put a little review in, say, hey, I like this one, I like this other one. Super helpful, especially if people are just finding the show and they don't know where to start.

There's 170 episodes all free, no paywall. Thanks most of all to you who are listening. Tell your friends, tell your enemies. Let's say you think someone's your friend and then you do an improv scene where they trick you into becoming naked in front of Radio City Music Hall. And after the show you go,

hey, I wanna talk to you about something. I was completely naked in Radio City and it was a little embarrassing, but you know, maybe we could talk out our process together and we could learn a few things by listening to this podcast. It's Mike Birbigli. He talks out process and jokes and tags

and maybe the tag could be you get naked next time. Thanks everybody, we're working it out. We'll see you next time.