Mike Birbiglia's Working It Out - 180. Kumail Nanjiani: Oh, Mary!, The Big Sick, and a Return to Stand-Up

Episode Date: August 11, 2025

Kumail Nanjiani is a stand-up comedian, a movie star, and an Academy Award-nominated screenwriter. Now he’s returning to stand-up comedy after a six year break and co-starring as Abraham Lincoln in the hit Broadway show Oh, Mary!. Kumail sits down with Mike to discuss all the twists and turns of his career, including co-writing The Big Sick with his wife Emily Gordon for producer Judd Apatow. Plus, how Kumail coped with the unexpected reception of the Marvel movie Eternals, and what Elon Musk and Mark Zuckerberg really think of the show “Silicon Valley.”Please consider donating to World Central Kitchen

I was in this movie called Eternals. Okay, yes, yes. A big Marvel movie. Yes. And it came out and it got really bad reviews. They didn't do that well. And it, like, shattered me too much. And that's when I, like, I was like, oh, I need to, like, go to therapy to figure this out.

No kidding. What was it? It was such, it was so, first of all, people have way bigger problems than this, you know? Like, much bigger. Not everyone's in Eternals. Not everyone's in Eternals. Honestly, too many people are, though. That is the voice of the great Kumail Nanjiani.

Oh, man, I love Kumal. I've wanted him to come on to working out a podcast for so long. I've known him kind of forever. I feel like we're about the same age, and we met 20-plus years ago. So excited to have an in-depth talk with him. He's obviously a great stand-up comic, but he paused that a few years ago to work

as a movie star, a TV star, he's now back doing stand-up, he's on Broadway, he's playing Abraham Lincoln and O'Mary, he's got a new special coming out on Hulu soon. We talk about all that, so it's an awesome episode today. I just did four shows with Nick Kroll and Fred Armisen in support of John Malaney's new tour, so much fun. We are back September 13th, that's Stanley Park in Vancouver. That's going to be great. Tickets at berbigs.com.

And if you haven't seen it, check out The Good Life, which is on Netflix. Now, that is my new special. As a matter of fact, if you're on there, you can see my last four specials. You can see, thank God for jokes, the new one, the old man of the pool, and the Good Life. So I got four specials on there right now. And they do tell a bit of a story. So it's kind of cool maybe to watch them in sequence. I love talking to Kumal.

What a just a naturally funny person. We talk about collaborating with our significant. Significant others, me in the case of my wife, Jenny, who is a poet, and Kumail with his wife, Emily Gordon, who co-wrote the film and were nominated for an Oscar for The Big Sick, which is a film that I love. Just love, love, love, if you haven't seen it, you should see that. We talk about Kumail's early stand-up days in Chicago, why he left stand-up for six years and became a movie star, how he was in Eternals, Silicon Valley. He shares a couple really funny stories about meeting Elon Musk and Mark Zuckerberg that I did not expect. Love this conversation, one of my favorite in a while. Enjoy my conversation with the great Kumail Nanjiani.

It's so wild because you and I have known each other for probably 20 years. That's the thing. I'm like, when I think, I'm like, I'm at the age where people I don't think I've known that long, I've known for 20 years. That's how I feel. Yeah. I'm like, I haven't known that guy that long than you do like,

no, it's been 24 years since I met him. I met you at Michael Showalter and Eugene Merman's show in Union Hall. But you were immediately great. I mean, we were both in our 20s, probably. Yeah, I think we're about the same age. But the difference that I had was I had spent six years in Chicago doing stand-up. So you were great.

You're really good. Well, when I got here and I started doing open mics, I was doing open mics with people who'd been in a few months into it. I had six years of stand-up and confidence behind me. And when I was able to...

The weird thing that happened was, my persona on stage completely changed when I got to New York. Really? So weirdly, all the material in Chicago I couldn't do anymore. Because it was like a person. Sona?

It was like a character? It was a character. Really? It was sort of like a really nervous guy because I was really nervous going up. And I was a big fan of Jake Johansson. And so he has... Me too.

Sort of took that on. And then I remember specifically I was doing a show in Chicago and I just watched an episode of Star Trek that I really loved. And I was like, oh, too bad. My persona doesn't allow me to talk about it on stage. And then I was like, oh, that's a big. I got to fix that. If something is exciting that I want to talk about on stage and I can't,

then I've limited myself too much. And so from then it was an act, I was like, oh, I have to be myself on stage. It was like five or six years into it that I was like, okay, I have to do that. And then when I got to New York, people, at least the all scene was allergic to the stand-up delivery. You couldn't really do, you had to like hide your punch lines. You know what I mean? Oh, I know all about this. It had to be like, oh, this just came to me.

Meanwhile, have you spent hours. I literally just thought of this. On the walk to the stage from the back of the room, I just thought of this. You've got to trust me. You had to bury the punchline, actually, yeah. I would never write jokes. Because it's lame because it's effort. It's effort.

It's effort. Cringe. I don't like efforts, cringe. That was totally the vibe here. Yeah. And so because of that, I was like, oh, I can't do any of that Chicago stuff. Wow. But then that...

Throughout the act. Like prior. Throughout... A lot of things. People said that at the time. Everyone was kind of saying that. Throughout the old Vegas acts. I just couldn't do it.

I would have loved to have done it. But I'd had six years. And then I finally understood who I was on stage at that moment, at least for back then. Right. And then when I started my first, I spent two years in New York, creatively still the most fulfilling years of my career. Because I wrote so much. I wrote constantly.

I wrote the bits I'm most proud of in those two years. Yeah. Yeah, it's so funny because it was, I had almost the exact character pivot on stage, which is I was in D.C. and I was... Is that what you started? Yeah, in college. Right. You were Georgetown. Right.

I worked at the door at the D.C. improv for a few years. And my character was just like a little dumber version of myself. Mm-hmm. And because I think when you're starting out, it's fun to be kind of... less intelligent than yourself and insecure, et cetera, right? And then I moved to New York, and I think for the first two years, it kind of hit me like, no, I should play to the height of my intelligence.

Right, and then it becomes most important that everyone know how important, how intelligent I am, that I think of first you're like, I'm just stupid, and then it's like, no, it's vital that you understand the depths of my intellect. A full 180. Yeah, totally. But then I kind of. But then weirdly, like, that's stupid. that hung with me.

Like, I was on Marin recently, and he still holds on to, like, the Mike persona when he moved to New York kind of thing. Wait, do you think Mark Maron holds onto stuff from the past? Is this? No, I know. This is what people say. I don't know.

I don't know anything about it. Be careful. No, I didn't say this. I love Mark, but we've had our times in the, you know, we've had. He's what we call in Italian culture a character. He really is. I mean, there's no... Talk about no difference on stage off stage.

Oh, yeah. He's Mark the whole time. Oh, yeah, it's pure. Yeah. Well, I wouldn't very, very... You know, I think Mark specifically right now is a great advocate for good stand-up comedy. No, he is.

Because I think we're in an age where a lot of stand-up is becoming sort of similar, talking about the same things. And Mark is really out there being like, this is where, you know, there's good comedy. And he's kind of trashing this stuff. He doesn't like... True.

And, you know, doing a lot of stand-up in L.A. recently because I stopped doing stand-up for like seven years. I didn't do stand-up. Oh, we're going to talk about that. So when I started up again, I was a little bummed out going to the club, seeing like all these guys and being like, this is what comedy is. Like, back in my day, it was about being original

and doing something nobody else is doing. In the 1700s. Yeah, it was... We didn't have... We had to project, you know? You had to breathe from the diaphragm. Yeah. No, that's interesting.

So you thought that the newer crop of comedy was not as exciting. Yes. Were you, is it clubs or alt rooms? Clubs. The alt scene in L.A. is not super hot right now. But to really, really quickly say, when I've toured and I've sort of done like, I'll just drop in and do smaller alt rooms in other cities and stuff. Yeah.

And I was like, oh, stand up is fine. These people are hilarious. Right. So I think there is a reaction to sort of the dominant stand-up, which right now is, you know, kind of like bro-y and stuff. Yeah. Outward-facing. For a while, comedy was really about, like, introspection,

and now I think it's a little more bro-y, but there is... What do you mean by outward-facing? It's not really, I find stuff that's particularly vulnerable. Oh, okay, okay. You're not revealing yourself on stage, where I think there was a while where that was really valued. Right. You're mocking outward versus looking with it.

That's right. And obviously comedy is a mix of it. Sure. But I feel like when Louis C.K. was at his height, he made this thing where everybody was talking about their deepest, darkest feelings inside. And now I think it's more, like I said, about mocking things outside. Yeah. Which is, you know, to me, it's less interesting.

You had the thing where you became so bad. big so fast and then you became a movie star and then like you were sort of gone and it's like did you feel that and did you feel that about other people when you were coming up where they would kind of go into the ether and never return well the people that i knew early on who really hit it big from like my scene in chicago the ones who like really hit it seemingly not overnight but kind it was like Hannibal exploded. Oh, right. While he lived in Chicago,

I think he already got really big. Yeah. Because he did Aspen on Montreal, one of them. I remember when Hannibal showed up in New York and he was immediately great. Yeah. And those guys obviously kept doing stand-up. And Pete Holmes was in that scene, right?

Pete Holmes. And he's never gotten good, but he's a good guy. At some point, he should learn to do. No, he's going to be good. Do well on stage. No, I think he will. It's going to take some time. I think he just, yeah.

Everyone, I think it's as an expression, everyone in their own time. Yeah. It takes, you know, it takes how long it takes for them. It's been, what, 25 years any second now? Yeah, it's 30. For him, it might be 40 years. But when you get there, we'll be like, you're not going to believe it. Pete's good now.

Yeah, Pete's great. Pete does well on stage now. Yeah. Still one of the hardest people to follow. Well, like, when I went back to stand up, you're just like, fuck, I got to go up after Pete. I have to follow this fucking camp counselor meets youth pastor.

Who will bully audiences into laughing. Oh, he will. They don't laugh. He'll be like, you should be laughing. The joy inside you is dead. You're out shy big laughing. Why is wrong with it?

No, it's you. Exactly. Yeah, yeah, he does that. And it works. No, it works. He does an impression of you that you don't like, right? I don't think it sounds like me, but then other people's impression of me

sounds like Pete's impression of me, so I'm like, all right, I guess people are experiencing me differently than I experience myself. What would be a good impression of you? There was a guy who, do you know Drew Michael? He's a very stand-up. He doesn't do it on stage,

but he does an impression of me that I'm like, that's really? Pretty good. What is he pulling out? What is he accentuating? He's getting very into nerd stuff. Okay. Like, Lord of the Rings.

Like, Lord of the Rings, yeah, yeah, sure. Pointing out, like, logical inconsistencies and movies and TV shows, which was sort of what I did for many years. I didn't realize that's what I was doing, but a lot of my bits were about movies and TV shows I liked. One of the first things I thought when I saw you, whatever it was 17 years ago, at Union Hall, was like,

oh, this isn't Camille's first language. Yeah, no, first language was Urdu. But now, I mean, you know, I think I'm truly bilingual in that. Do you think in Urdu or English? Both. You think it both? I do. I think the base, the foundation, is still Urdu.

Yeah. Because, and I know that because if I'm really tired, if I'm speaking to, sometimes Urdu will, I'll say Urdu instead. Yeah. When I wake up first thing in the morning, I'll start speaking in Urdu and then be like, oh, right, this one doesn't understand it. Although she's been learning for a few years now. Wow. So, yeah, so I think that's the base. But I truly think I dream and think in both languages.

I'm not translating anymore I always think about it though because you're 18 you move here to go to college go to Grinnell and then you do stand-up in college or you go to Chicago to stand-up? Only my senior year

I did like one set each semester guess how much time I did my first time it's for stand-up first set ever Long or short come on Long Yeah that was gonna be my guess It wasn't just me

It was a bunch of people You did like a half hour? I did 30 minutes. My first time on stage. Come on! I've seen it all. No, I know what you mean? I actually find that that is one of the things about when people are really nervous about doing stand-up, like, for the first time, they're like, I'm not going to have enough time.

And then they fucking run the light and do a half hour. Right. Oh, you've seen that. It's a classic thing. Yeah, it's a classic thing. Because they also don't understand. The I don't have enough time thing means they're about to run the light for a while. That's so funny.

That's because that's what Pete always says. I don't have anything to talk about it, then. Yeah, well, he still doesn't. In fairness, he doesn't. Of course. You're also, like, with Pete's up before, not only he's going to murder, he's also going to go over and, like...

Well, I happen to how to, too, run the light. Oh, Judd does that? I don't have anything to talk about. Yeah. And then he was 40 months later. Still on stage. I think Judd loves stand-up more than anything else. Oh, he loves stand-up.

The biggest movie directors in the world. I think for him stand-up. is like the highest. He's coming on here again next week for like fourth or fifth time. He loves talking about stand-up. He loves doing a stand-up. He does.

He is his first love. He loves jokes. Yeah. How did you end up making the big sick with Judd? That feels like a huge life-changing thing. It was. I mean, it's, to this day.

To this day. He became a movie star and a Oscar-nominated a screenwriter. It happened because a few years before, I would guess it was 2013 or something, or 2014. We were premiering Silicon Valley at South by Southwest, which was 2013, I think, and Jed was there premiering girls.

Like, we started at the same time. Yeah. So I met Lena Dunham there. And Jed was there, and I never met him. And Pete, was it Pete's podcast? Pete was doing his podcast, I think. And he had a bunch of guests on it. It was me, Judd, Todd Barry, Chris.

gethered yeah and jett and i got along great and we kind of hung out that weekend and we had a great time and then that monday i got a call from my manager was like hey jed wants to know if you have any ideas and i was like whoa i mean you know this is the biggest comedy director in the world yeah and i was like what so i went in and i had a meeting and i had all these ideas i remember what i've talked about this one of the ideas was about a ghost witch it's a witch who dies and then it's the ghost of the witch and he was like do you have any other ideas And then I was like, well, you know, my girlfriend was in a coma right when we first started dating. And then we like, you know, fell in love while she, I fell in love with her while she was in a coma.

And he's like, yeah, that's the story. Do that. Yeah. And that's how it happened. That's how we started. And I first started writing it on my own. And then I went to Emily and I was like, this is both our story. Yeah.

I need you to do, we need to do this together. Had you done anything with Emily? Like creatively? That's a good question. We just, we hosted a video game podcast together. Yeah. Which I guess is creative. So, but we'd never written together, which to me is the most intimate form of working together.

Yeah. Or it might be a director, actor relationship. Yeah. Might be the most intimate, creative way of working together. But writing together, you're like, people are seeing inside your brain. For sure. Like, did you have to bring up things with her in the writing process where you're like, oh, I don't even want to bring this up?

I don't want to say how I felt about this Well, you just write it and then you send it I wait to see what happens But it was interesting because I'd written the pages From my perspective And then she reads it And then she rewrites it from her perspective So truly in writing The Big Sick

Was the first time we understood What it was like for the other person to go through it Because our experiences are very different Like when she's in the coma When she's in a coma for eight days we are absolutely miserable, right? It's the worst thing. We don't know if she's ever going to come out.

It's like bad. Every day is bad. She's not there for that. When she wakes up, she's miserable, tube down her throat, she can't talk, they have to tie her down, otherwise she pulls it out.

Miserable, and we're elated because we're like, oh, she's out, she's going to be fine. Oh, God. So our experiences are completely, on paper you'd think similar, but we didn't go through the same. things in any way.

Even the timing was different. So that stuff, you know, understanding and also just understanding what it was like for her to have like your body betray you, you know, really didn't understand any of that until we started writing the Big Sick. Still trying to understand. Really? Yeah, I feel like our sort of relationship patterns in some ways were born from that. experience and we're still sort of trying to in some ways get out of those canals you know what i mean

gosh yeah jenny and i wrote a show a special in a probably show i did called the new one about having our child and how i never want to have a child and then we did have a child and how all the reasons that was right and wrong ultimately and yeah it's a level of deepness that is somehow even closer than marriage and dangerous because like you you end up crossing lines of you don't have to tell your wife or husband everything. Yes. And it's like you're writing with them and you kind of are. You really are.

It's a new level of vulnerability that's very scary, but I think ultimately beneficial to a relationship. I do think I, as I've started being just more open with her about everything, not just stuff about us, but also like, you know, I'm starting this new job and I'm kind of scared. I'm not good enough to do it. Like just saying that out loud to her. It's just made us closer.

What you just brought up, I don't know why it made me think of this, but I think of us in many ways as having like opposite careers or opposite approaches to our careers in that you were like, I'm going to do my own thing, I'm going to write my own stuff, control it, do it, you've made a couple of great movies, you've done all these shows. You totally were like, I'm not going to go into the machine. I want to do my own things.

And I kind of went the other way and did go into the machine. And I am now seeing, I have no regrets, but I do now want to prioritize doing things the way you do them, which is I'm a writer too, and I feel like I'm only using one part of my skill set. Right. You want to exit the machine. I want to at least be able to control more of the machine if I'm going to be in the machine.

So now I want to, like there's a movie I want to direct, a small movie I want to direct. I'm going to talk to you about directing at some point. Emily and I started a production company that were now trying to make our own stuff. I just got sort of dazzled by people wanting to cast you and stuff. And it's great, but you're just at the mercy

of other people's mistakes, and I want to be at the mercy of my own mistakes. So you're in town right now doing O'Mary on Broadway. You're playing Lincoln, which made me laugh so hard. Have you seen the show? Twice. It's so funny. Yeah, I think it's really hilarious.

And I'm also friends with Hannah Solo, who is the understudy for Cole. I've been working with her last week. I'm in rehearsal. This is my second week of rehearsal. She's phenomenal. She's hilarious. And Cole is obviously brilliant. And it just seems like good energy, the whole cast and crew.

It's good vibes. Michael Lvoie and Carly are producing. We've produced a bunch of my shows through the years. I don't know them, but I met them. Yeah. Really good vibes. Yeah. That's a fun show to jump on board of.

I've never done a play in my life. Oh, interesting. Not even high school. So do they have to show you the nuts and bolts? of it? I didn't know what upstage and downstage

man. Oh, interesting. Yeah. Still not. Upstage is further away from the audience. Correct.

Yeah. Yeah. Ding, ding. Yeah, there we go. Eight days in finally figured it out. It's really interesting because many things

about it are interesting. And it's similar enough to screen acting that the differences are really confusing. One, we're going into a show that's already going.

So in some ways it's not like a collaborative experience in some ways it's like you say this line here then you go here and you say this line here and in the beginning that first day I was so overwhelmed because I'd never worked with like that where you're usually like working with other actors director and directors have ideas like you say that there but you're like actually I think I would be on the move and they're like okay let's try that yeah this is not that now that I've been doing it I now understand the thinking behind all that like I understand why I'm saying this here then I walk here and say this like it makes sense but in the beginning

The other thing is, you know, the way I've done comedy has always been, hey, instead of this, can I say it like this? Yeah, sure. And you have to be word perfect on this. You can't. So for me, that was a big adjustment. Especially with the pacing of this comedy. Yeah, it's go, go, go, go, go, go, go.

And if you miss it, it probably has this weird chain reaction downstream of someone else's line having the wrong tempo. Oh, it is like, yeah, it's like 300 people. like walking across each other, like at the perfect time. It's almost like a British farce. It has like a really specific tempo. And they keep saying you do not hold for laughs. You plow through.

Oh, is that what it? Oh, that's interesting. Said the lines said the line said the line. There are two moments where they said you hold for a laugh. Otherwise, go, go, go, go, go. And I think they say that because when you're there, I still haven't done the show yet. Yeah.

Naturally, you'll have the instinct to hold a little bit for the left. I assume that's fine. They just don't want you to, like, really live in it and milk it the way that I do when I'm doing stand-up. You sort of like let the laugh go, and then you don't like let it go to zero, but you kind of like ride that way for a little bit. Yeah.

It's, what if you just ignored them and then the show just starts running two and a half hours? I'm just improvising. Oh, it's the Kumail edition of O'Mary. I think we'll, I think I'll be gone. But I'm really, really loving the process of rehearsing like this because, well, there's two things. One, the worst thing about filming is always you do the scene,

you're on your way home and you're like, oh, shit, should have done it like that. Yeah. Theater, you get to do it. Theater, you get to go home and be like, you know what, I'm going to try it that way tomorrow. Really, that has been very exciting and working with, you know, the directors of, it's been really, really, really fun.

The other thing is, for me, when I'm like doing stand-up or doing acting, I don't think about comedy in terms of how I deliver it or timing. Like I just have to sort of really shut my brain and go on instinct. So before I say it, I don't know how it's gonna come out. And that's the way that I have to do it. That's the only way I've learned to trust myself.

And it works for me. So if I'm preparing for a movie, I'll prepare everything else. I don't prepare the comedy. I just go, we'll see what happens because that's what works for me. Here, it's different. Like you said, it's ta-da-ta-ta-ta-ta-ta-ta-ta.

So it's got to like really hit it the way that you hit it every single night. It's got to be the same. And watching other people, like I'm working with Jinks Monsoon and Jane Harris, who've done a lot of theater and are absolutely hilarious,

but seeing them dial in moments, not mathematically, because that makes it sound soulless, but with some sort of, intellectual component to it. I always think of comedy delivery as having zero intellectual component to it. Seeing them do that has been really interesting and for the first

time I'm understanding like, oh, you could do the same joke, the same way with the same timing and have it be as hilarious every time. For me, the instinct is to like try and do it a little differently every time, you know, at least on set. Are you studying up

on Lincoln? No, not at all. You should read the book at least from a few years He's, my, this version of Lincoln's more like, um, Richard Nixon, if, if anything, who's, like, sort of like, worked up angry and sweaty and hates himself and all that kind of stuff. Yeah, yeah. It's like that. So do you think about timing?

No. Like when you're doing your shows? No. No, right. No. As a matter of fact, that's what I was, I was kind of getting at when I was saying, like, when I first saw you do stand-up, I was like, wow, this is his second language. That's so shocking because I would think, like,

the natural timing of your first language would be the thing that you were essentially studying subconsciously your whole life to get a rhythm and then you're in English. And it's like, how do you have timing in English? I wonder, I've never thought about that. Is comedy timing different in Urdu and English? I come from a very funny family. Like my parents are very funny. Yeah.

There must be crossover. There's got to be in the timing. Yeah. It's got to be similarities. it's all about surprise and I bet it's similar it would help me I think to sort of get a little bit I guess this is a little bit esoteric a little vague the structure of the language the sentences is so different like Urdu is left or right English is no right to left English is left I have to sorry I have to always correct you on your Urdu

Urdu Urdu is right to left and then you know the way we put verbs and subjects is different yeah and so i think that makes you generally kind of approach things a little differently too where you could sort of see like uh different ways to approach a thing because you know there are different ways to structure a thought this is called the slow round who are you jealous of am i now who am i jealous of yeah yeah Seth Rogen. I'm jealous of him. Says Rogan, yeah, he's doing great work. I think Seth has done what he, Seth and Evan both have done what they wanted to do their entire careers.

They went into the machine for a second and then realized, no, that's not how we do best. He's created his own work. He's gotten like an infrastructure. And I really look at his career. And I've seen him get better as an actor as well. Is it a really good actor? Better as a writer. And so I would say I'm just.

jealous of what he has felt. I actually, and to their credit, they made that show in the system, but with full willingness to blow up their own careers. I feel like sometimes people forget that. Like, you can't go so hard at an industry and expect people to be like, way to go. You've really nailed us, like, over and over again and expect people to be like, great. using specific stories that where the people know

this is based on me and then they talked about in interviews oh that's based on that guy also it's one of the first time they've done it they took on North Korea if you remember and that led to a hack of Sony

and led to like the head of Sony getting fired so that's what these guys they're at like South Park level satire yeah all right this next question is did your life go how you expected it to go not at all I mean how could you

I mean, how could I? Yeah. I really think if there are all the parallel universes, this is the only one where I'm successful. Like, I think things just lined up just right, you know? Like, I know exactly the right place, right time thing for every single step that led to the next thing. Yeah.

I know like, oh, I got lucky because I was here at this time and then they needed this and then I got lucky because this. It just sort of worked out. But that can't be true. I mean, like, is there a through line to at each step of the way something you did or an attitude you had or like an approach that you feel like put you into the next rung? I really think more than anything, whenever people ask you for acting advice, I say, be nice to everybody and get to work on time. Yeah. And learn your lines.

So I really think it was just that I was like a good person to. work with. I learned that I think I had my office job in Chicago when I was doing stand-up at night. I had my office job that I was terrible at. Yeah, I've had those. But I was nice to everybody. And everyone around me kept getting fired

in my department. Everybody else would get fired, but I wouldn't. And it's because people liked me. Yeah. Those other people were better at their jobs. Yeah. They fired them. They kept me just because I was like, nice. And so I think that's the thing,

is that I work hard and that I'm like good to work with. I think that led to everything. But the first, I would say all of my stuff leads back to, I would say, Portlandia. Like, I got so many breaks from doing the first season of that show.

Oh my God, you're so funny on that show. It was so fun. And I realized, oh, you could do comedy like this. It could work and just be fun. Yeah, that show was like explosive. When it came out, Like, oh, you, it was that. It was you can do it like this.

Yeah. It was sketched like we had never seen it before. Yeah. And that happened because this is how lucky I was. When I first moved to New York, Colbert needed, they needed like a brown guy for a sketch. And so this guy, one of the writers that done stand up with, he's like, can you come do this one little sketch? So I did this sketch and went well. They had me back a couple times.

I played this character. And then a couple of years later, I was in Brooklyn going down to the subway, and I ran into the director of Colbert. And she was like, hey, I'm working on another show. Do you want to come do it? I was like, yeah, of course. The next day, I get an email about Portlandia.

I was already doing bumbershoot. Yeah, festival in Seattle. Yes, festival in Seattle. I was like, oh, I can just drive down next day, do it. I shot that scene for like two hours. Truly, she thought of me because she saw me walking down that just subway stairs. And then that sketch led to every job I've had.

Like that little three minutes get changed my life. That's a case for living in proximity to other comedians and creators. I think that's the thing. You know, I was always like work and personal relationships are different. Like work with work people, personal relationships with friends and family. And I've learned, no. Work with your friends. It's so stupid that I, for years, didn't want to do that.

Now, I see people like, you know, Rob, his name's Rob Mack now. Yeah. Who does Always Sunny. Yes. Always works with his friends. James Gunn always works with his friends and family. And they have a lovely time. Yeah.

Because they trust these people. Why don't you work with Pete Holmes? I said friends. I said lovely people. What's the best piece of advice? someone's given you that you used? Actually, Pete gave me this advice. When we first, there he is.

When I first was moving to New York, he was like, and this is not something I'm necessarily good at. In this work, he's like, you can never compare yourself to other people. He's like, I've seen talented people get eaten from the inside because they're like, why I should have that? Why does that guy have that? And he named a very specific person who, you know, who's a very funny comedian.

and he's like, I've seen it make him bitter. And so that's the one thing that when I first moved here, I was like, all right, I'm only comparing myself to myself and to nobody else. It's still hard to do, but it is a good, like, sort of guiding star. Yeah, I always think about it in relation, or try to think about it in relation to, like, I can't compare my thing that I just started to what someone else already finished. That's very hard.

It's hard. You're like, how are you so good and this is not good? Yes. Yeah. What nicknames have you been given that were particularly good or bad? Well, so these will be Urdu-based. So in high school, Nanga, the word Nanga means naked. Yeah.

And the bullies in high school called me Nanga Jani. Yeah. And Johnny means love. And I really, really, really hated that. Really? And up until recently, on what? Wikipedia, you know, under aliases, they would say

Kamel Nungajani, because one of these fuckers had gone in and, like, edited Wikipedia. That is hilarious. I think it's gone now. I haven't been around. You're getting trolled by your high school bullies? As a grown-up? Yeah, dude. That's crazy. You know, that's the thing

I realized. I was like, you know, all to my 20s and 30s, I was like, I was very social. I was going out. I was like, I'm cool, you know, whatever. And then I real, I was like, I'm so different from the way I used to be. And now in my 40s, I'm like, I'm the same person I was when I was 14. Yeah. I'm like, I'm still that guy. Only difference is, I now like that guy. I used to not like that guy. That's the only difference.

And in my 20s and 30s, I tried to be a different person. And now, like, no, this is what I've always been. How'd you arrive at that? It was, it was pretty recent. It was earlier this year where I think doing a lot of therapy and stuff. and just being like, when will I be rid of these fucking problems? I'm like, why do I still feel like this on the inside? And you're trying to hide it from people and you realize like, oh, when I was 14, I was worried about these things. And I'm 47 and I'm worried about these things. I was like, that's just who I am, I guess.

That's just what it is. And instead of fighting it, I just have to like acknowledge it and deal with it the best I can. And the things that are my insecurities at 14 are still my insecurity. Yeah. Things that I value in myself are still the things I value in myself. The things that I value in other people, same. Well, you've won the slow round. Is that how it goes?

I mean, that's a really good answer. I mean, that's as good an answer as I've heard. Oh, that's better than Pete's answer. Oh, yeah. Come on. Pete is, I mean, we keep having it back on the show, but it's only out of sadness and pity. Okay, so this is the section, this is the working-out material section. I'm at this odd stage right now. I just released a special.

And so I'm figuring out what, like, I don't know, what I'm gonna talk about, so to speak. And so I have like a lot of like, So let me ask you this. This is an interesting thing because obviously you do these shows that are like about a certain thing. Yeah. How do you get at that? Like are you at this point in between shows just gathering stuff and hoping a picture emerges

or are you going the other way and trying to figure out what is the thing in your life that's like the thing to tackle that? Yeah. So I would describe it as when you do stand up as long as you and I have done it, your brain starts to think in setups and punchlines. yes so i'm just jotting down whenever they come into my head right because they do on the subway you know home from the comedy cell or whatever uh i'm just jotting stuff down and then i try the stuff that makes me laugh i put on stage and i see what's working and then over time i start to be like oh okay i have a bunch of jokes about not wanting to have a child for example with the new one or about death with the old man in the pool

or stuff with my dad when he had a stroke and that's what the good life ended up being about. It's like once I realize if there's an intersection of what I think is funny and the thing that just keeps coming up over and over again, I'm like, okay, I'm going to explore that. I think that's the really only gauge of what to chase. Yeah.

This is the thing that keeps coming up. Yeah. I got to talk about this. I got to get this. out. To me, really the thing that changed how I approached stand-up was, I don't know if Bill Hicks at it or Doug Stanhope said it. They're like, when you first start off, you're talking about things that are funny, and then later you talk about things you want to talk about and make them funny. And that's like a big change. That's an interesting take. Instead of just like, oh, this is

a funny thing that happened. It's like, I wanted. So like in the new special, I don't have kids. Yeah. I have a cat that I love very much. Yeah, I know all about it. And she, her, not It. Oh, I'll say it, though. Okay. She and I have a close relationship. She's fine with me saying it. She got, she was, you know, she was sick.

And I was like, this is important to me. This really shook me. Yeah. I want to be able to talk about it on stage. And that took some doing to be like, I'm going to talk about my cat's heart condition on stage and write like a seven-minute bit on it. Yeah.

So give me some odds and ends. I'll give you some odds and ends. So I have this thing about how. my friend like last year a friend of mine oh the well the premise of this one bit i've been doing is about how when you're married you're able to communicate so much with so few words yeah i go last year a friend of mine was like i want to go skydiving for my birthday i was like that sounds amazing and i went home to jenny and i relayed this conversation to her and she goes you're going to do that and that's when i realized i wasn't going to do that i said no way why would

I want to do an activity that's so dangerous yet so fun. Yeah. Because ultimately I'm more afraid of my wife's judgment of me than I am of jumping out of an airplane at 9,000 feet because both activities have some element of danger, but at the end of one of them, you get to die. Yeah. That's great.

So I've been doing that. It's been good. It's been good. But part of it is I'm trying to figure out, like, what's under that? It's like, okay, that's the joke. Well, what's under the joke? Exactly. Yeah.

it's sort of like you're like still in a way you're trying to impress your wife in a way you're still trying to like you still want to be like to her the person that you want to be to her I think that's right but it is like yeah a lot of times it's like into your question of like how do you arrive at the shows

it's like okay you have that joke and the joke is funny and it's like okay well what's under that and like you were saying like yeah you're still trying to impress your wife but also like you're afraid of your significant other in some way like I feel like that I feel like if I could crack that I could really have a show because a lot of times especially in therapy culture and I'm in therapy and I value it but there is this sense sometimes of we're not afraid of our significant you shouldn't be afraid

of our significant other it's like yeah but we just are yeah and they know it all they got all the stuff. They got all the stuff. They've all, they've got all the compromise. I mean, that's, they got all the compromise. They got your P-tapes man. They got the flight logs. Yeah.

To be clear, they do not have the flight logs. Just to be clear, just to clarify since there are no logs to be had. You don't have them because they do not exist. Yeah. It's trust. I mean, that's what you're getting at, right? That's what trust is. Yes.

Trust is, you know all my shit. This is all my stuff, deepest, darkest. Yes. Emily and I talk about it like are, we, and maybe this came from the conversation, we're talking about, you don't know what I'm talking about. Like, my little kid, we talk about like, what's your little kid's thing that's like the thing

that is most hurtful to you, that is most painful to you. Yeah. So we each know what our little kid is. When you're, your 14-year-old self, What is the most hurtful? What is the thing that gets to your bones? So you talk about that with Emily?

Yeah, we do. And then I think it's trust, you know? It's like, I'm not saying that's necessarily funny, but it is, I think ultimately you have to trust that this person is not going to choose one day to just fucking mall you with all the ammunition they have on you. That's what a marriage is. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, so I have that. And then I have a joke sometimes I follow it with where I go, Jenny doesn't love that joke because she doesn't like it when I evoke my own death. Which is true and sweet. And I go, but it's a little hypocritical because she seems to enjoy my presence most when I'm doing activities that are as though I'm not alive.

Like when I'm not moving or speaking, speaking and my heart rate is low, it is so hot for her. When I'm reading, it's like, ah, you know what I mean? Like when I'm taking a nap, I go, if I died, she would be upset, for sure. But if I'm being completely honest, for the first five minutes after she found my body, she'd be like, this is nice, it's quiet. She dragged bath, she'd do a wordle on her phone. Yeah, I can do my things.

Five minutes, yeah, that's really funny. And then I had this thing, I go, you know, the detective would come over and be like, hey, we noticed a couple things on timeline. We're not saying this was murder because it clearly wasn't. It's a hard thing that happened. Yeah. However.

However. We have conclusive evidence. You found him and didn't call anybody for 25 minutes. That's right. That's right. We saw you do Wordle on your phone. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. We saw that you watched your shows. You watched your shows? Yeah. So, and then at the end of that, I go, you know, the detective would be like, we noticed you do Whirl on your phone. And she'd be like, yeah,

it calms me down. He's like, oh, I'm only asking him. me and the guys had a hard time with the word today. We always think of fluff as a proper noun, like marshmallow fluff and not the verb form to fluff to be fluffed. Plus it has three Fs out of five letters. What are the odds that once you guess one F, two of the other four squares would also be F?

And then they'd have a moment together, and he'd be like, what are you doing later? And she'd be like, today's a hard day. My husband just died. And he'd be like, oh, I'm so professional. And she'd be like, tomorrow's fine. Tomorrow's fine. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That's great. Which is another, like, and that's another like, what's under the joke. kind of thing, which is, I think, like, a broader discussion of, like, that whole thing of sometimes people have this thing where they go, like, oh, if I died, like, you should see someone else or whatever. But then it's like, how soon? Yeah. I mean, you know, that's, this gets too dark, so I'm not going to talk about it. But that is something that's been like in our conversation, what's it called, the Rolodex recently, is how long after someone passes away.

is it okay for them to date somebody else? Do you have any bits you're working on? They're like half complete or premises? We could talk about the last 15 minutes of my stand-up set. Oh, were you serious? Can we talk about this, by the? Yeah, for sure, for sure. What is it?

I talked about how I was in this movie that was like a big movie and it came out right after COVID, so I had a year and a half at home to just be like, oh, when this thing comes out, you know, when this. And it came out and it got really bad reviews. They didn't do that well.

And it, like, shattered me too much. And that's when I, like, I was like, oh, I need to, like, go to therapy to figure this out. No kidding. What was it? Well, it was, it was people, I mean, it's the movie called Eternals. Okay, yes, yes. Big Marvel movie. Yes.

And I was like, oh, this is going to be my job for the next 10 years. Right. If you sign on, I sign on for six movies, you know, I sign on for a video game. I signed on for a theme park, right? They make you sign up for all this stuff. Wow. Yeah. And so you're like, oh, this is the next 10 years of my life.

So I'll be doing, you know, Marvel movies every year. And then in between, I'll do, like, my own little things, whatever I want to do. And then it, none of that happened. And, but for me, what really hit me was just realizing too much of my self-esteem is tied up in other people's reaction to my work. I got to figure. It was such, it was so, first of all, people have way bigger problems than this. Of course, yeah.

Much bigger. Not everyone's in Eternals. Not everyone's in Eternals. Honestly, too many people are, though. There were a few too many people. Yeah, we're a few too many people in the turtles. If the reviews are to be believed. I love the movie.

I'm very proud of the movie. But here's the list of people who I think should not have been in the movie. Joking. You're not going to get that from me. So anyway, that's like the last 15 minutes of my set. Now I talk about all that. Wow. And it's been really great.

Yeah. You know, I didn't do stand-up for so long. And then I started up again. I did it now I recorded it. It's going to be out on Hulu in December. Since then, I haven't really... There is, you know, I'll tell you this one joke. I felt...

It's in my special, but it's one that would not have been in my special if I'd recorded it two weeks later. Yeah. You know, I mean, you do these shows, so I think it's different for you. For me, you know, I had the structure of the show. And I was like, I like this idea,

but I've never been able to go. get to figure it out you know sometimes you write a bit that does well for three weeks and then it stops doing well yeah i recorded it right at the tail end of that so it did well i didn't even do it my first show the second show the director bill bans who's amazing by the way was like hey do that joke yeah i was like okay i'll do it and then it did well it's in the show i like the idea of it the idea of it is basically the reason i talk about having anxiety and the reason we have anxiety is because our bodies haven't evolved appropriate defense mechanisms. Like still, you know, you get nervous.

You start sweating your hearts going. That's so you could run away from a fucking lion. Like that's what the purpose of that is. But now it's just because like you're laying in bed like, oh, I said something shitty to that person at that party or they're going to have taken it wrong. And I'm laying in bed like vibrating because my body is like, go find a tree to climb. You're being chased by a lion. And you're just like, I just want to go to sleep.

It's like, I'll make your, I'll make sure you grind your teeth all night. Yes. We'll visit to a judgmental dentist be the solution to your problems. Like, no. Like, I have a new job. I hope my coworkers like me. I hope they don't realize I'm full of shit. And your body's like, got it.

I'll make sure you don't poop for a week. It really is true. That's why we have these reactions to it. It's because. These animal. We don't have. Earlier versions of ourselves. Yeah.

Yeah. We got too smart too quickly. I know. But, I mean, not that we're super smart, but, you know, we transcend in our animalness in some ways and not in others. One last thing is, did you, when you were on Silicon Valley, did you ever meet, like, tech people who, you were like? I've met all these people. Like, you met Elon? I've met Elon.

What was it like? You know, we didn't hang out or anything. Right. But he was. Did he like the show? Do you like Silicon Valley? He didn't like the show. That's hilarious.

He was like, so the first scene of the show is, it's such a funny opening. It's Kid Rock playing on stage. And then it cuts to the audience. And it's like at clearly some tech party. There's seven nerdy dudes standing there, nobody's paying attention. And Elon was upset.

He was like, well, the parties I go to are much cooler than these parties. Oh, God. Yeah, man, you're one of the richest people in the world. We're like losers on the threat. Of course your parties are better than my parties. What are you talking about? It's really funny. Yeah.

Did you mean Zuckerberg? Zuckerberg. I don't really blame Zuckerberg for not liking us because we did this thing. This is so weird, dude. So like year three or year four of Silicon Valley, you know, it was like one of the shows that people were watching and excited about. So they invited me and Martin Starr to go present at the Science Awards show. Yeah. I think in San Francisco, but they gave us a private plane.

And so it's William Martin and a plane flying there. And it turned out to be an awards show for people, for people who'd made scientific breakthroughs all over the world. And it was actually really, really great. It was a great thing, you know. It was like sort of trying to be like really celebrating these people, but in the way that we celebrate, like, the arts, celebrating science. So there had a bunch of like famous people presenting to people,

that nobody had ever heard of, but it would actually make the world better. So Martin and I, they'd like written something for us and we were like, this isn't funny, we've got to do. You know what we should do?

Famous last words. You know what we should do. You know what we should do. Yes, exactly. I would say 40% of deaths have been preceded by that sentence. That's a bit, by the way. Yeah.

You know what we should do. I was like, So at the end of the first season of Silicon Valley, there's this very funny bit about what's the best way to jerk off a room full of guys. Okay, yes. It's like hundreds of people. And we, you know, it's very detailed because we're trying to solve a problem that we need to solve. I'm worried about the story.

We can't figure it out. It's about where this is going. It's absolutely horrible. And so truly it's about like, well, the best way to do it is if there are like two dicks tip to tip here, two dips tick to tip here because then you can like, jerk off four in a row but it's got to be the height like no it's not the height

it's dick to floor ratio because that's what needs to line up also the girth needs to line up because otherwise you're you know so all this it's really like a very long scene of nerdy math guys doing math

I'm the best way to do so Martin and I go up and we're like what if you had to jerk off everybody in this room and we do the entire bit that we made and made them

put in the teleprompter for scientists for scientists from around the world many of them don't speak english oh god i would say almost none of them knew who we were or what the fuck we were talking about and me and martin do the full five-minute scene to absolute silence wow and got off stage and i think Zuckerberg was one of the people who'd like put it together what it was yeah and he went up he He came up, and he was like, what the fuck was that? Oh, my God. And truly, in that moment, he was right. The last thing we do is working it out for our cause.

Is there a nonprofit that you like to contribute to? And then what we do is we contribute to them, link to them in the show notes. Yes. I really like Jose Andres as charity. Because he's, again, one of the best chefs in the world. does amazing food, but then really is trying to fix hunger in the world. He seems really focused on positive issues. Yes.

So it's World Central Kitchen. WcK.org, World Central Kitchen, we'll contribute to them. We'll link to them in the show notes and encourage people to contribute as well. And Kumal, this has just been tremendous. I feel like I get talked to you all day. Yeah, I feel like we barely scratched the surface. I know. I'll come back.

Come back. Yeah, I'm here for a few months. Perfect. Great. We'll do it weekly. Yeah. Working it out because it's not done. We're working it out because there's no...

That's going to do it for another episode of Working It Out. You can follow Kumail on Instagram at Kumal N. K-U-M-A-I-L-N. You can watch the full video of this one on YouTube. Just search Mike Barbiglia. Subscribe. We are going to be posting more and more video. Don't miss it, and you can follow me on Instagram at Burbigs.

I've got a clip from the Bob Bowdenk episode a couple weeks ago that just went so viral. I don't think we've ever had one like it. It went out to 20 million people, 20 million people, so crazy. And I think maybe 5 million on TikTok or something. It's just like, who were you, it was who are you jealous of? And he said people who still have kids at home. It was super sweet. People like sentimental things in comedy spaces sometimes.

That's my takeaway from that. Check out berbiggs.com to sign up for the mailing list. That's how you can be the first to know. But my upcoming shows are producers of working at our myself, along with Peter Salomon, Joseph Berbiglia, Gary Simons, and Mabel Lewis. Sound Mix by Ben Cruz, supervising engineer, Kate Bolinsky. Special thanks to Jack Antonoff and bleachers for their music.

Special thanks, as always, to my wife, the poet, J. Hope Stein, and our daughter, Una, who built the original. original radio fort made of pillows. Thanks most of all to you who are listening. If you enjoy this show, rate it and review it on Apple Podcasts. We've been doing the podcast for five years as of June. So five years and two months.

This is the 180th episode. You can listen to 180 episodes. Set aside some time. They're all free. No paywall. Check them out. Thanks most of all to you who are listening to this show. I really appreciate it.

tell your friends, tell your enemies, tell the high school bullies who keep putting your high school nickname into your Wikipedia page. You can jump in there and edit. You got to get a login and edit the page. Just write, hey, high school bullies of mine who keep adding my old nickname to this page. Maybe instead of teasing me, you should check out Mike Brubigley's working out a podcast where Mike Brubigley talks about the creative process with comedians and other creatives. You can just write that in the Wikipedia. But don't forget to cite your source. It's this podcast. Thanks, everybody. We're working it out. See you next time.