Mike Birbiglia's Working It Out - 184. KC Shornima: Get Comfortable With This Darkness

Episode Date: September 15, 2025

Comedian and SNL writer KC Shornima might be the only Working It Out guest who has climbed Mount Kilimanjaro. KC and Mike get to the bottom of why she thrives in stressful situations like mountain climbing, camping on a glacier, and writing for Weekend Update. Mike asks KC some questions from her bosses, Michael Che and Colin Jost, and KC explains why she feels compelled to talk about difficult topics on stage.Please note: This episode contains discussion of sexual assault.Please consider donating to Theatre 202

If you look at the cadence and, like, format of a tragedy, it's the same as a joke, right? Like, there's like a set up tension and then there's this really unexpected event. Yeah. And that is the cadence of a joke. And so, like, when you look at like Eidipus Rex, you know, it's like a really funny story if you just changed, like, the theme song. Right? Because, like, he gets this Oracle and then the Oracle's like, you're going to kill your dad and fuck your mom. And he's like, oh, my God, I really don't want to do that.

I'm just going to, like, go out and do other stuff. And then that whole quest ends with him killing his dad and fucking his mom. And that's so funny. Yeah, great payoff. And you know it's funny because that's every episode of That's So Raven. That is the voice of the great Casey Shornima. Casey is a stand-up comedian who I wanted to have on this show forever. She's a writer for Weekend Update on Saturday Night.

She got her start in Nashville. We talk about her origin of getting into stand-up, which is one of the most interesting origin stories of getting into stand-up I've ever heard. This episode is here, where you're listening, but also on our YouTube channel. If you wanted to watch this episode, it is at Mike Barbiglia as my channel,

or you can search Working It Out. We just hit 60,000 subscribers. Thank you to everyone who's subscribed. If you haven't, give it a shot. The video episodes are really fun. Today on the show we have K.C. Shornima. This is a great conversation today with Casey. We talk about kind of dark jokes. I mean, she is like an incredible practitioner of dark topics. She has like a fascinating personal life story that we talk about a bit today. And she just got back from Edinburgh Fringe Festival where she did her full hour-long show. If you're able to see her on tour, by all means, try to do that. Instagram is at K.C. Shornima. Yeah, we just have a great chat today. We talk about writing for S&L. I have a question written in from

Michael Che and another one from Colin Jost. She climbed a mountain, by the way. Not many of our guests have done that. Stay tuned for that. And enjoy my conversation with the great Casey Shornima. But you were alluding to that you did like a rape joke up front and that you lost. But then on stage you were like, I'm just getting you back from the rape joke I opened with. I open with it now, which is like, it's very new. And so I feel like if I don't open with it, I'm going to like, like, if a set's going well, I'm going to lose my nerve. I'm going to be like, well, I don't want to ruin this now with bringing up rape. Like, it's not going to.

Do you ever get complaints? ST hasn't told me if there's been, like, complaints, complaints, if there has. But no one has said it to you or, like, has shouted out, like, hey. People have gotten mad at me after, but it's very, like, I mean, to me, it's just like, it's not, it's not like I'm, like, making fun of people who are, you know, it's like. Right, the target of the joke is not someone who's raped. Yeah, and also, like, I'm, like, talking about my own experience, which I found out is, like, people really, this is so dumb. But, like, people who get offended, they're very, you know, they're liberal. I'm liberal.

Like, it's like, we're all liberal here. Right. But they want me to get raped if I'm going to talk about it. It's like, they're so liberal. They've, like, come around to being like, you better have been fucking raped. And I'm like, okay. Right. I guess I will, you know.

Right. We're going to need some paperwork on this. I know. And then, but then if you say it, they're like, oh, no, you got raped. Right. And it's like, well, what do you want? Right, and it brings down the room. Yeah, like, I don't know how to make you happy.

Yeah, it's a weird thing. Have we started or is this a conversation? This is the whole thing. Oh, okay. We're going to release this five minutes and that's going to be the whole thing. Perfect. You're one of my favorite comics. Two weeks in a row, one of my favorite comics, Ryan Hamilton and Casey.

Oh, I love right. I was just watching to that episode. Couldn't be more different. Comedians. Yeah. Like, you and Ryan, so different from each other. But your jokes are so dark. Like, so many of them are so dark.

Yeah, they're really dark. Sometimes I'll be on stage and I'm like, man, I am putting them through. I cannot bring up another thing right now. I try to do like silly stuff in the middle sometimes. And then I'll just be like, it's almost like they're like, where the hell is this coming from? And it's like, well, sometimes I'm silly. It's not all dark, you know? Yeah.

Yeah. How do you arrive at that? Like, who did you, like, when you're starting out, like, who are you watching? Like, how do you arrive at, like, dark jokes? Well, I think when I first watched comedy, like, for the first time, and this is such a, this is, it always makes people laugh. When I first came to America, I, like, watched, like, Def Jam. Yeah. But, like, I didn't speak English very well.

But it was really, like, I found it very funny because you just know from the tone and the cadence where you're supposed to laugh. And I used to love, like, I watched Sinbad. Yeah, Sinbad's one of the first. Yeah, but it was like at a time where not only would I not get the joke, I barely understood it. It was your introduction into English. I was like, I don't understand cultural references. I barely understand English. But then it's like killing, you know, it's like earthquake, like killing.

And then like when I was like thinking about doing comedy, which I never really had a full thought about it. But it was like Ali Wong special had just come out. Neil Brennan's, like, three mics had just come out. And, like, I was, like, a huge fan of, like, Mulaney, you. Like, I'd listen to you on NPR for, like, you know, my sister and I are obsessed with NPR. Oh, yeah. Same here. But, like, we were obsessed with your specials.

And, like, so all of that was in the back of my head, but I never thought I would do comedy. Yeah. It's just like, it's just not something I would. I'd like other plans. What were those? I had other plans. I'd like so many random plans. I was like I well I did teach for America so I was like I want to do I want to be like a teacher maybe right then I took the outside I was like I'm gonna be a lawyer oh okay then I went to Columbia I was like I'm gonna work for the state department right and then I was like I was drunk one night at a bar and there was an open mic and I was like I'm just gonna do comedy this is what I'm doing now you told me this story one night and I think it's the best comedy origin and I think it's the best comedy origin

story, which is that someone else in your group was doing comedy and you didn't think he was funny. And he was the worst. He was the worst. He was like, he was a white boy who rapped on stage. Right. Sure. And which some people do it really well, but he did that for the first time at an open mic.

And then he came up to me because I made fun of him. And he said something like really rude to me. It was like very like, we'd gone to brunch that day. And I'm like a funny person in conversation sometimes. And he was like, the only reason people laugh, because I said something really, really mean to him. And then he said, like, the only reason people laugh at you is because, like, they want to fuck you. Like, something really, like, crude. Right.

I was like, I could do a better job than you right now. Like, right now on stage, I could do a better job than you. And then I was like, I don't want to hang out with these people anymore. So then I just started hanging out with, like, comics at this, like, bar where you could smoke indoors. I used to smoke cigarettes. So I was like, this is perfect for me. I can smoke inside. I can do, I can drink, I can like,

it was a perfect setup. And then you did, he had done comedy. Yeah, that was his first time, I think. And then you did comedy. Did you do it that night? That night. I didn't do comedy. I had the story.

I just knew the story was funny to me. Okay. And it was like a perfect story. It was like about farting. It was like, there was like every element. Right. To a joke. Yeah, yeah, it had a big surprise.

It had tension leading up to it. And I was like, this will work. And you'll, you just have to do, like, five minutes. And I was like, I can get off at three because it's an open mic. Yeah. And so I just did that. And it did well. It did fine.

I mean, it's not like an incredible story. Honestly, this story also, this story is just like, when I was in college, I took, like, this Russian lit class. It was a Dostoevsky class. And I love that class. And our professor was this, like, like, Russian man who would say things like, you know, like God is buried in, like, Lenin's tomb and the red square. Like, he was just a very dark Russian man, and I love that class. He loved me, and, like, at the end of the year, I was, like, graduating early, and at the end of the year, he was like, you know, why don't you come to my office?

We'll talk about, like, whatever. So I'm in his office. It's, like, all mahogany. It's, like, this really nice office, all books. And he's like, you know, what are your plans, whatever? And it's just me and him. And he's giving me these, like, Russian-lit, like, books that he think I would really like. It was this really sweet moment.

But also, it has this undertone of tension of, like, If it's going to be a joke, is he going to try something? Like, people can kind of, it was like right around me too. So everyone in the audience, I think, thought he was going to touch me. Right. But instead, what happens is like, he's like picking out this like Pushkin book. And he's like, I think you would really like this. And I farted.

It's just the two of us. So it's not like I can be like, what happened? And it was like, not only was it audible, it was also in the air. I was like, let's go to the other shelf. I think I'm interested in those books And then like I'd also said some like Horny stuff You know when you're in college and you're like so corny

He was like I think I think And when I say I think I know I said this Because it like like reverbs in my head so often I was going to go to like Croatia or something And I was like I'm so embarrassing It's so much more embarrassing than farting I said I think if I'm going to stare into the full

And the void is staring back at me. I hope it's the Adriatic scene. And it was just, just horrific. Oh, my God. Anyways, he wrote my recommendation to Fulbright, like, the year old after I was like, hey, can we meet up? Oh, that's the other thing. You got a Fulbright, right?

Oh, my God, yeah. Jesus Christ. What a weird. What a weird. I know. I really thought. But also, like, what a, what other comedian has a Fulbright scholarship? Yeah, what a weird life.

I mean, I clearly thought I was going to do something else. Yeah. Your, like, life story is so unique, but I'm reluctant to ask you about it because I've literally talked to you about it, like, three times at the comedy seller, where you're like, it's so annoying when people ask me about this. Well, like, it's not that it's annoying when people ask me. It's that when people, like, really assume, like, a lot of people really assume the craziest things about it. and like infer that like like i did the fringe this year and this is like kind of random but

it's like before my show there was like a trigger warning they would send out in an email being like this show will talk about war oh interesting and rape which sounds like i got raped in a war and i'm like well that's not what happened but if you were getting that email you would be like and also spoiler alert yeah yeah also why would you put i was like you mean You mean my big closer? Yeah, my big, I got raped in a war zone closer. I was like, those are two separate stories. But when you put it like that, it sounds, also, what kind of email is that you get before you go to a comedy show?

Awful. Awful. One of my friends sent me a screenshot of it. I was like. And also, like, without your permission probably. Yeah, I mean, like. Which is its own type of rape. We'll take this out.

That's what I say to crowds. I'll be like, I know you guys don't want to talk about rape. rape, but we're going to do it anyways, because that's how rape works. And sometimes it, like, breaks the tension, and sometimes they're like, we hate you. Yeah, we hate you. We're done. No. Yeah.

No. No. No. A whole room of VU saying no. Oh, my God. Okay. So you have trigger warning. That's wild, though.

So who put the trigger warning on it? Like probably the venue. Yeah, the venue or the promoter? Yeah. I'm really not sure. I was like, I mean, it's fine. You know, you can give them a trigger warning, like. So how would you just...

I'm going to find them. I'm going to say it to them personally. But do they do that when you go to an Anthony Jesselneck or a Jimmy Carr show, right? Like, I feel like that, I don't know. Yeah. I doubt it. Yeah. I think, like, well, like, I don't know.

I don't know if it's like the way like Juzzleneck says jokes are they're very much like not in reality. Right. And the way I say my jokes are like, they're all kind of things that have. And then here's a joke about it or whatever. Right. So maybe that's why. Yeah. But it's not like it's my show never gets sad too.

That was one thing like I was like at the fringe. I was like, I got to make this show sad. People really don't like when it's not sad there. Well, what's funny is is like your life story coming from Nepal and I mean, at least the inference from one of your jokes is like you grew up in like a war. occurring and like really traumatic things eventually you will tell that full story on stage yeah right like yeah like at the fringe i did kind of talk about like you know the war and stuff but the thing about the war is like i don't know it's like when you grow up in something you just feel like it's normal it wasn't like people imagine like you know syria it wasn't it was a civil war that was

like we're like a poor country right we didn't really have bombs you know like all our bombs were like homemade. It was very like a car can explode, but a building can't. Right. Because they don't have the, they don't have, you know, everything it takes. Yeah. And so like I grew up in a pretty like safe environment in terms of like I was in a boarding school. And so like, you know, it was pretty safe. But then I was talking to one of my friends from boarding school came to my show in Edinburgh and she lives in Manchester and now and she was like, I'm going to come to your show. I was like, this is so exciting. She's like one of my best friends from growing up. And she watched the show and And she was like, yeah, it's so weird.

I, like, never think about the war. It feels like it almost never affected us. And I was like, yeah, it, like, didn't affect us personally. And then she goes, although one time my dad was, like, driving home from India, he's like a businessman and he was in India and he was driving up. And she was like, and the, and the Maoist did bomb his car. Oh, my gosh. And he did get burned in it. And she was like, other than that, you never really think about it.

It never really affected us. And I was like, yeah. Other than that, it never really affected us. It was all, like, things like that where you feel like this is just a small story. Other than the five to ten near-death experiences we had. Yeah, other than, like, people we heard of dying and, like, whatever. Right. But then you kind of, you know, it's like anything you say to a child, they kind of bring that into being like, this is normal.

And so it was like pretty, and, you know, it sounds like I saw, like, dead bodies instead. You just heard the news a lot, but it wasn't, like, happening all around me all the time. It was very. It was a low-key war. It was a low-key war. It was a B-minus war. It was more like just stories of a war. And I was like, okay.

This is a, you write for a weekend update. So I asked Joe St. And Che if they had questions for you. Did you actually? Yeah. Che wrote, I think she climbed Mount Everest or something. Ask her when she going to get the guts to jump. That's his question.

That's, honestly, it's rich a film to say, when is she going to get the gods to job? Rich coming from Cheye. Okay. Did you climb Mount Everest? I did not, but I have been mountaineering, actually. I think Che said that because he's partly listening to things I'm saying from time to time. And he's like, I feel like a mountain came up somehow.

I did kill Majara this year. Oh. And then I went to Alaska for two weeks. I, like, camped on this glacier for two weeks in the middle of nowhere. So far into this glacier Wow Storm every night So you have like an adventurous

Street Yeah like I love the mountains That's really cool I really love the mountains I really like being just as far away From like a crowd and a people Like I love New York But I love leaving New York

Wow And yeah we were in this glacier It was actually like insane It was like there's like a blizzard every night So like the snow would accumulate to like two feet in an hour And so you have to wake up every hour through the night to go dig yourself out of the snow because like if the tent Because if the tent is like four foot tops right so like two foot if it goes further the tent's going to collapse

So we would have to wake up and just dig out of the snow every night white out conditions you can't see anything You need to like stay inside the perimeter of your campgrounds because there's like crevasses outside right so like your campgrounds like staked out and you know that there's no big ice holes in the middle of the glacier. And so, like, in white-out conditions, you don't want to walk outside. So then I was like, you're like looking for the bathroom, which is at the end of the perimeter. And you're like, if I go any further, I could get outside the perimeter and never find it. Like, I'd have to wait until someone gets out of their tent. And why do you do this?

I think, I think I like stress. Like, I think I, like, it's honestly like a Zen mode. What does that date back to? Literally, sometimes I'll be like, I'm so complex. And then I'm like, everything is just so simple A to B. It's like you can trace something. Yes. Like very specific to being like, now I go on the mountains.

Yes. You know. Then the Joe's question is, if you were from Nepal, does that make you a Nepo baby? That? Joe's texted me that. It was like, do you ever say this on stage? I was like, oh, that's funny.

I was like, yeah, should I start my set with that and end my set with that? I'm going to do that. I'm opening for him next weekend. I'm going to do that on stage. I think it's worth trying. Yeah, I'm going to be like, Jost wrote this joke for me. Does that make me a never be? It's a little corny.

Do you ever, the, who's more challenging to work with, Che or Jost? Who's more challenging to work with Che or Jost? I think they both bring their own challenges. No, they're both pretty chill. Like, in terms of what S&L is, I think I have the chillest job. Like, it's just these two guys who are both comics who are like easy to deal with. The only things that I feel like are kind of difficult sometimes is like, you're kind of like, where are they? Where are they?

Because they're running around so much. They're working on like all these other things and you're like update. But then other than that, they're very, I have such a chill job. I submit jokes anonymously. What do you mean anonymously? Like, you don't write your name on your joke at update. Really? Yeah, it's awesome.

Oh, so it's just a compiled sheet? Yes. So then when they see it, it's just a compile sheet. So you never feel like your boss is mad at you, you know. That's interesting. What does your day look like? So you have to show up at work, right? Yes.

We show up every day. We submit like by the, so on Monday you show up and then like Tuesday by 12. You have to submit like 20 to 30. kind of jokes wow which you know i mean not all of them are winners like a lot of them you're kind of trying to fill the page yeah of course um and then every day you do that till friday on friday we submit by seven p m and so friday is like really stressful and then after that there's just this like huge chill release of like reading magazines and like watching tv until we pick the jokes with joost and ch and then saturday we just kind of like call the herd of like how many

jokes we have and then and then you kind of write right before the show like if there's like a Saturday news you write on Saturday and then you kind of like keep working till the you know I mean like you keep working up until it's air time basically and then and then and then it's over and then do you like it you like the job I love my job I think I think like update low key like the the best way to be in SNL it seems like it's such a like and everyone is so nice. It's like our team is so great. It's like Pete, Meg and Josh, and it used to be like Rosebud last year. It was just like, it's such a fun environment. Yeah. And they're all so smart and they're so funny. So like most of the day, you're writing your jokes alone. You never really like talking about

what you're going to write. But all day you're just reading the news, talking about shit with like the smartest people. Yeah. And coming up with like ideas about the news and like about the, and then you're just kind of like shooting the shit and then you know that's your whole day it's like most of the day is chatting and then so cool and then suddenly a joke comes to you and then you write it and then and then you go back to kind of chatting the segment where uh che and jo's roast each other by giving each other their jokes yeah or that's the conceit of it it's probably one of the funniest things ever on time it's so funny it's insane that used to like before i started that used to be like that blew my mind when I first saw it.

I was like, that's incredible that you get to do that on TV. And then when you're sort of like writing for it, you're kind of like, what is the worst thought I could possibly have? Like, I remember the first year I wrote like really tame ones because I was like, I'm not going to let my head writer know that I thought this. Like, that's crazy. And then you're kind of like, okay, you have to step. Like, you have to really kind of think of, like, the worst of the worst thing, you know, and then you go from there.

It's, it's crazy that that's on TV. Is there anything that's, well, because I think it's able to be on TV because it's a fundamental deconstruction of why you can't say it. Yes. So it's like on the nose. Here's why you can't say this and we're going to say it. And, like, it plays with, like, the audience's expectations from Jost. and the audience is expectations from Che and it's kind of like, oh, this is what you, if you, this is what you think I am, like,

and then you're saying it, you know, it's like, and that's not who those people are, but it feels kind of like an affirmation of what the audience might be thinking about these people somehow. Right, the worst possible thing you could think about them, I'm sure. Or like, the worst, like, Jos is not a racist, but a little part of the audience kind of is like, is he a racist?

And then he says the most racist thing. It's like an affirmation to them of like, that's so funny because he's clearly, it's like, plays with like a lot of like. You're playing into what is the worst thing I could think about this person. Yeah. This kind of like country club, punchable face guy. Yeah. Yeah. And then he just plays into it.

Which is great, by the way. His book is great. His book is really. Yeah. Punchable face is like really, really good. I told my sister, my sister was looking for a book. to listen to an audio book and I have Joe's book on our Audible and I was like you should listen to Joe's memoir. It's like a couple of books in my Audible and she goes, what's it called?

The Devil in the White City. Because that was the other book I had in Audible. I was like, that is what they call them in the Hamptons. I was breaking down one of your jokes in terms of speaking of set a punch joke is I'm in therapy anyone in therapy it's been great going to therapy is great I'm doing justice to your judgment is a great I'm Asian and my parents asked me why I go to therapy and I was like Do you remember when I was a kid and you guys raised me? No, you were there. I mean, not emotionally. And it's like such a great joke because it's like I always try to break apart on this show, like what jokes are. And it's like set up something that's true and then punchline something that is somewhat true.

Or like a left turn that has some truth and some fiction, I would almost describe it as. But, like, that's, to me, that's, like, a really perfect, like, economical joke, which is, remember when I was a kid and you raised me? No, you were there. I mean, not emotionally. It's just, like, so brief. How did you teach yourself a set up in punchline, like, as a structure? I think, like, because I was so scared of being on stage when I was, like, new to comedy. Like, I was, like, so panicked.

No, I did my first, yeah, Tennessee. Tennessee. Okay. So I was like so scared that the economy of words comes from being like, when can I get to the punchline? You know, so it's like you might be writing things in between that you could like spread out. Like even now when I do this joke, I don't say I'm Asian because I'm like, that's actually like irrelevant to this joke. Yeah. So like you just start editing so quickly because you just want to get to the punchline because that's when it feels safe on stage.

Right. Totally. And so before that, you're just like, the talking part feels so panicky to me. Yes. And like now I'm getting better at being that way, but that programming is already in me to be like, this doesn't need to be here. We just need to get to the punchline in like the quickest way. I always, like, whenever people do, we do Q&A's on the show and people ask about like what can you do if you're starting out. I always say like get on stage, get on stage, get on stage, any way you can. Yeah.

Like, I remember when I was in college, I hosted an Acapella Festival. Like, I would host anything. Yes. Because the exact thing you're saying, once you get on stage, essentially, like, what's this much text becomes this small. Yeah. It's so, you're immediately like self-edit, self-edit, self-edit, self-edit, self-edit, self-edit, I got to get to the punchline. Yeah. And it's kind of amazing.

Yeah. Because the joke get better. Yeah. Because, like, when you're writing, you're kind of like, ooh, this is a good thought, you know? And it's like, no one cares about your thought. They're like, here for a punchline. So then you're on your on stage. You just cut it, you know?

That is so true. Yeah. No one cares about your thoughts. No one wants to hear this. Like, they're hearing. Yeah. Tom Papa said that to me once. He goes, your brain edits out what's not as good.

Yes. It's like you're on stage and you find yourself forgetting a section of the joke. It's probably not great. Yes. And like, like, when you're writing, you're kind of like in your ego. sort of, you're like, ooh, you know, this turn of phrase. And it's like, that's not going to get a laugh. Yeah, yeah.

It's not, the crowd isn't going to like that. And you know that on stage. You know that because of the last thing you said, it gets a certain reaction and you're like, oh, so this next thing won't work. And it's crazy how fast your brain works when you're on stage. It's just going. That is a big difference between people who are stand-up comedians as a background into like movies and TV versus people who are like playwrights into movies and TV.

because, like, playwrights are like, no, no, it's exactly these words. And it's like, well, maybe. Yeah. Yeah. And, like, you learn not to be too precious as a stand-up because you're like, also, you throw away jokes that are working because they're just not working as well as some of the other stuff. You know, it's like, you become not precious about jokes. That's why, like, I think, like, working at Update, I realized, like, you write so many jokes

that when I was, like, younger and, like, coming up, you would kind of be like, someone stole this joke. from someone. And now you're like, then just write a new one. Just, it's like, it's, there's endless jokes in the world. You can just write a new one or, or not, or don't, you know. I've found there's so much stealing lately. Like I've noticed and it's like, I, it washes over me. Yeah. Like, I see someone do my joke and I'm like, okay, sure. Yeah. You're like, I, I'm going to keep doing it if I still like it, but whatever, like, you know, also the way you say it is always going to be different than the way they say it. Like the way you say it to your crowd, they'll like it for a different reason than, you know. Way to someone steals your Nepalese history jokes.

Collins, Nepalese, Nepo baby joke. Well, that's what, you know, one of the, my first people who taught me anything about comedy told me, like, if you write jokes about your own life, people can't steal it. And like, that's, that's why I feel like you're going to end up writing something super autobiographical. Wait, is the thing that you did in Edinburgh? Is it autobiographical? Yeah, it's pretty much, like, I feel like anything I do is sort of autobiographical in the way that I can trace it to the exact event that led to this being a joke or whatever. But yeah, in Edinburgh, I was like, I kind of talked about, like, you know, like going to therapy, you know, and like I say, like, my therapist really wants me to, like, unpack everything now. And it's like,

I just packed it. Why? Why? Why? would I unpack it? Like, I just got the suitcase to close. But then it's like, then I talk about like, you know, civil war growing up, whatever. And then, and then now being in like America, then there's like a section on dating or whatever. And then you bring it back. I think like the main thing I learned while I was at Edinburgh is like, I've really been trying to make this work for a long time. But there's just nowhere in New York, especially where you can kind of try something like this out in a 15 minute set. Whereas like, I really do think like people look at. tragedy and they're like, this is so sad. But then if you look at the cadence and like format of a tragedy, it's the same as a joke, right? Like there's like a set up tension and then there's this really unexpected event. Yeah. And that is the cadence of a joke. And so like in Edinburgh, I was trying out this thing where it's like when you look at like

Oedipus Rex, you know, it's like a really funny story if you just changed like the theme song. Right? Because like he gets this Oracle and then the Oracle's like, you know, You were going to kill your dad and fuck your mom. And he's like, oh, my God, I really don't want to do that. I'm just going to, like, go out and do other stuff. And then that whole quest ends with him killing his dad and fucking his mom. And that's so funny.

Yeah. Great payoff. And you know it's funny because that's every episode of That's So Raven. That's what happens. Like, Raven, like, sees the future. She's like, I'm going to avoid this future. And then she goes on a quest and, like, fucks her mom, you know, whatever. That's so funny.

Yeah. I feel like that's been like a guiding principle in my comedy and in my life, which is like there always will be pain. Yeah. Pain is inevitable. Yeah. And it's kind of funny every time. Totally. There's something like really funny about a shocking, like a joke is kind of like a shock in a way.

You know, it's like I didn't see that coming. Yeah. You know? And that's like what a car accident. That's like what like anything is like you didn't see it coming and that's why it's so sad to you. Well, that's like my joke. I think you saw, we were watching each other sets the other night at the club. It was like, but I have this joke where I'm like, the other, you know, a few weeks ago,

my wife said to me, like, sometimes I feel like you're not happy. And I was like, right. That's so funny. I was never happy. When we met, I wasn't happy, you know, I thought that's what you were into. I thought, like, I'm unhappy, but I'm hilarious about it. Yeah. But it's like precisely that is like, is I think that's, I mean, look, it's like, maybe

I'm overstating it, but it's like, I think that's kind of the comedian's job. It's like, take something that's painful, which everything is painful. Yeah, everything's painful. Like, just a sad, but it's like, you know, that's why I also get really upset when, like, people are like, and not to go back to rape. But that's why I'm really, like, upset when people are like, don't talk about this. It's like, like, who are you to be like whatever happens in your life? I don't want to hear about it because it brings up something

It's like I read this thing on Reddit A long time ago I read a lot of like Am I the asshole things you know on Reddit And one of it was like This girl has a scar on her face And she just started a new school

And this other girl Who has a scar on her face Has been hiding it Yeah And she's like I really don't like That you have a scar on your face Because it reminds me that I have a scar

Oh gosh So if you could hide it And I was like Well this is like A ridiculous scenario probably made up on Reddit but also I was like that is what all of this is right

like you're like don't talk about Ray because it reminds me of something and it's like well it reminds me of something too and that's why I'm talking about it okay like I didn't just it's like no one would say that everyone's like upset if you talk about something really dark

because they think because you are making a joke about it but they think you're laughing at it and it's like well this is like a form of self expression that like if I'd made it into a painting you would suddenly be like look at this beautiful piece of art

someone made from trauma. Yeah. Oh, it's incredible. Right. Like trauma into art is like really admirable if it's a specific kind of art you like. But if you do a joke about it, it's suddenly like, well, you're making light of it.

And it's like, yeah, but that is how I express things. You know, that's like my writing is just that. I just think, yeah, it's like the devaluation of stand-up comedy as a non-art form. Yeah, which on the record, I do think it should be devalued. I respect that take. Yes, I get it, but also I'm like, not when I'm on stage, like later.

Not for me. Yeah, not for me. Not for me, but for others. But in general, in general, yes. But, yeah, it's awesome. I mean, you, this is like the working at our drinking game, and I'm forcing people to drink now. But if you did a solo show, it would be one of the greatest solo shows. I'm sorry

because you have great stories you have great stories and you're a great storyteller and it's just like what are you doing? I know, I don't know and I get so scared to tell a story on stage

I like I really feel like I gotta get to The thing Yeah I gotta get to Yeah And relax Which I do think with Edinburgh

I'm a little bit more like Okay I could tell a story You know So you did tell stories in Edinburgh And what was the show called again? Detachment style Detachment style Yeah

Which is like just kind of about like how whatever happens and I don't have a lot of feelings about these things. I'm just kind of like I'm doing fine. Yeah. Yeah, I've put myself in like stressful situations a lot. That's why I think this job is so great for me.

Like I think S&L is such a great job for me. I love like a little bit of stress in my life. Right. You like it to be sometimes toxic. Yes, I love a little. It's like I always think like if my parents had given me all the approval I needed in my life, I would not thrive at SNL. Like I would not be having a good time. But I think like a like coming from like,

you know, earn your place is I'm kind of like, oh, okay. I feel the same way. Yeah. It's not a popular current take, but I do feel like that. Yeah. That's sort of, that's how I was raised and yeah, it's worked out in some ways. I know. And it's like if it didn't work out, then yeah, I would like try to fix it a lot more. But like, you know, it's kind of like I like I like who I am, you know, like, hot take. No one likes who they are anymore, but, like, I like who I am. And, like, I feel like a little bit of that is, like, my dad never said, I'm proud of you, you know? So it's like, sure. That's good. Is your dad still with us? Mm-hmm. Does he now? Oh, no. Does he like your jokes? My parents don't really watch my comedy. My parents...

Oh, my God, this is what you and I have completely in common. Yeah. Same. Like, 100% the same. My parents do not watch my comedy. I think they're like, you know, like abstractly proud of me. They're proud that I'm doing what I want to do and I've made a living out of it. And that's like cool to them. But yeah, no, my parents are, my parents are like, you know, I love them. They've been really sweet to me, whatever. But at the end of my admiration, I'd be like, you know, a lot of people will like,

because I'm not talking shit about my dad. I just, I think he is who he is. And like, we're just, I love him. But, you know, I think we're just kind of like. you know different people yeah um but also very similar i think that's also the problem um but at the end of my show i would be like you know sometimes people will hear me make jokes about my dad and they'll be like you know aren't you worried that like your dad will be offended if he sees this and i'm like if you heard anything i said about my dad like if you were really listening you would know that my dad

would never watch me do a comedy that's insane it's yeah he didn't know my parents didn't know us the only time they've watched SNL even after I started was live yeah in the studio yeah they never thought i'm just going to look this up like see where my daughter's working that's so funny my i had one recently where i was talking to my mom she goes um she she watched this joke that i did of my dad god what is my the joke in my last specials my dad was a doctor and then his free time he got his law degree that's how much he didn't want to be that and And my mom was like, just so you know, like, the other dads weren't around also. And then she lists off my friend's dads.

Like, Mr. Blah, blah, blah. He wasn't around either. And he'd be gone for weeks and that. That's so funny. And then she goes, my parents were around less than your baby. I go, I know. I know in the 40s parents weren't around a lot. That's such a parent response.

Like, like, I wonder if that's just something that happens to your brain when your kid is talking back to, like, it's immediately like, like, dispersing blame. Yes. It's like, yeah, I'm not a good parent, but no one else is. Yeah, yeah. How does that help me, though, you know? No one's a good parent. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I'm going to, like, continually bring this up off air, but like, you really have to do a solo show.

Like, you have to. I think I need to get more in touch with what all of this. means to me okay you know what the whole your whole life means to you yeah like what do you make of like what do you make of this you know right like a little bit of the solo shows like what do you make of these events like like jokes are like event joke but a solo show is like and what of that you know like no i think it's more i think it's more what are these it's asking a question there's a dramatic but I don't think the dramatic question has to be answered. I think the dramatic question can take you to another question

or can take you to another thought that isn't the answer and doesn't claim to be... Like, if you see a show and it claims to be kind of a truth, it's like, well, that's not a great show. Yeah. Okay. I don't know. I'll think of a solo show.

I love to do a solo show. Look, I'm just saying, like, your stories are amazing and your jokes are amazing, and it's very rare that those two things exist. Thank you. That's why, like, I'm like, I feel. feel obliged to be like, no, I have to say, I have to insist that you'd make a solo show. I do think, like, the biggest thing I'm scared of being a comic is like, I was really worried that I would stop living like an interesting life.

I would just become a comedian, which is an interesting life in its own way, but it's not the kind of like danger and interest and like intrigue that I like and like is fun to me. And I think that's why I started climbing mountains is because I'm afraid that I will like lean into this like all my life is doing stand-up you know that makes sense you got to go do something else you need a story like you need the stories to keep you going you know This is the slow round. What are people's favorite and least favorite thing about you? Okay.

I think people's favorite thing, which I've noticed is like friends will call me with sad news sometimes, and I think they want to laugh. And so I think that's maybe their favorite thing, is they can, like, rely on me. That's sweet. Yeah, it's kind of like, you know, but then you're kind of like, how much am I supposed to make it, you know, but I like that. How much material do I have? Yeah, how much material do I have on that?

This is God, the cancer. And then I think people's least favorite thing about me is that I can be really, like, competitive and, like, sort of, like, confrontational. Like, I don't think I'm, like, very sort of afraid of confrontation or competition, and that makes it really hard to play like a board game with me sometimes. Yeah, sure. Like on the right here, I was running late. And I do this thing where I don't want to tell the Uber driver

that I'm running late because I don't want to be like step on it, you know, but I need him to know that he needs to step on it. So I'll call someone and on the phone, I will say, I'm running so late. I cannot believe this. Like, I think I'm going to lose my job. And then I get. It's really emotional on the phone.

What do you think that's connected to your childhood? Oh, like, totally. I mean, it's, my parents wouldn't let me do a lot of, like, things that I wanted. So, like, the best way to get what you want out of them is to, like, present the story that they are sympathetic to without being, like, you have to, like, everything can't be a fight. Right. Some things have to be, like, here's a story you might like, you know? Yes. Yes. And then there's sympathy.

Wow. Propaganda. Propaganda. Yeah. Really, yeah. You're spreading a story. Yeah, pathos. You're using pathos.

It just so happens. I'm thinking about this other thing. Yeah. And then they're like, oh, that could be a good, you know. You let them think they came to it on their own. You let them think they're being a good guy. The Uber driver now thinks he's being a good guy by taking me somewhere faster. Yeah.

Right? Because he just saw a girl in distress. Yeah. And now he's helping. He's a hero. Versus if I was like step on it, he'd be like, this bitch you know right who are you jealous of who am i jealous of i'm really jealous of people who are very adjusted like i i have really close to your friends who are very adjusted people and like

it makes me jealous of like even someone who doesn't want more it really makes me jealous to be like i can't believe you don't have like a void right you're trying to fill all the time yeah yeah There's no hole in you. You're very satisfied with your life. And like some people will like look down on like someone with a suburban life and like a backyard and are happy with what they're. I can't, I can't want anything more than wanting that, you know? Right. Like I don't want that.

But if I wanted that, that would be the best thing in my life is like if I could just stop chasing stuff. Some people have no hole. Some people have no hole. It's interesting. I didn't even, I've never even really considered that. as an idea. You know, some people's parents just love them just right. Just the right way. And they have no filling, filling, filling, you know? That's interesting. No, that makes sense, though. Yeah. No, I could see being jealous of that.

Yeah. I don't think I'm jealous of it because I don't think that it maybe exists. I feel like I see it. Like, I see it in people and I'm like, you're like just, you know. You're just balanced out. Yeah. And like, they do want things, right? Like they want like a happy, healthy child. They want like a family. And it's like those are things if you work on and you can really, those are achievable things. You're not looking for like an external validation. You just want to be good. And if you want to be good, you can be good. What's something you believed 10 years ago that you don't believe now? Well, I think 10 years ago I was very sure of myself. Like, I. I was very like, this is what I want and this is what I like and this is. And now I don't know any, like, I'll go shopping and I just feel so lost.

I'm like, who am? Like, every time I'm shopping, I'm like, you see a shirt, you're like, is this who I am? Like, in my core, is this top going to describe who I am, you know? And like, it's like paralysis. Then I have to call someone. I have to call my sister and be like, do you think this top feels like me? Yeah.

And then now I'm looking at someone else to tell me who I am so that I can finally feel like, well, she confirmed it, you know? Yes. But 10 years ago, I like feel like I knew. Yeah. I relate to that so much. Yeah, the older I get less I'm sure of. I always find it confounding.

Maybe that's what dementia is. Maybe it just can hold. I find that when people are confident, I'm like, Huh. Yeah. What's that like? Well, I think when people are that convent, I'm like, you're dumb.

Right. You must be dumb because there is no way. There's a little critical voice in my head too. Yeah. Jealousy. It's me being jealous and saying you're dumb. What's the time you were caught in a lie? Oh, my God.

I mean, this is one of those, like, early, really embarrassing, cringy things. I, like, I went to three different high schools. So I moved a lot. And my last year in high school, I was like, it was my senior year, and I was like really trying to make friends, you know. I was joining every, like, I was, I joined a fantasy football team. I'd, like, never watch football. Yeah. I watched Human Senepeed 2 because people were watching it and I was like, well, I'm going to make friends with them. So like, yeah, yeah. This guy was wearing this shirt from this band, a perfect circle. A band I had never really listened to, but was vaguely aware was like maybe cool.

Yeah. And I was like, oh, I love that shirt. Love that band. Yeah. And then he did that thing where he was like, you know oh what what album are you listening to right now yeah yeah could not name a single of course yeah couldn't name a song didn't they had like some beetles covers i think i was like i really like when they cover the beetles and i was like and that's like one of those well you've been caught in a lie a lot but it's like one of those things that really sticks with you where you're like fuck yeah and i relate to i went to three high schools you did different high school for eighth ninth and tenth yeah yeah that really i think it makes you kind of like uh well it makes you kind of like a chameleon where you're like i i know how to like get into a group or whatever but it also

makes you kind of like a people pleaser where you're like totally how am i gonna make friends here you know being funny helps the um all right so i this is the working out section some of these you saw the other night i think because you these are like the new jokes i'm working on um the uh one of them is I was sexting with my wife and she wrote the ants in the kitchen have found the English muffins and I wrote back

man I want to fuck you she wrote seriously we need an exterminator and I wrote seriously take your pants off and then she blocked my number and now all of my messages go to green which is the horniest color

sexting with my wife that's like my new joke that actually works you ever have that feeling where you're like oh I have a joke that a new joke that works. Yeah, and you're like excited for it to come up. Yeah, yeah. So I, yeah, that's really funny.

I need, we need an exterminator. It's really funny because you can be like, I don't think we need a third. Yeah, yeah, totally. Totally. Yeah, that one's sort of straightforward. And I think maybe we talked about this one the other night, which is being single is such a painful thing

because you're just like roving the planet saying, like, does anyone want to be naked at the same time? And then most people say no, and you've got to be like, me neither. And some people say yes, and then you say no. They're like, I thought you were desperate. And you're like, right, but not, you know. They're like, but not what?

And then I, and then I always point this out. I go, being single in New York, I feel like it's miserable because all single women think they're in sex in the city and all single men think they're in madmen and we're all in Game of Thrones. That's really funny. Which is fun. Do you say that on stage the other ones?

Oh, did I not do that one? Yeah, so that's really funny. Yeah, it's funny, I found this connective tissue the other night, like the, I realized it the moment I came off stage and I saw you, which is like, which is like, I had those jokes about being single and then being married. And I had this thing where I was like, I can't seem to make the single jokes work. I think because people are like, what are you talking about? You've been married for 17 years. But I, what I realized was I could tell the joke about, that I said earlier, sometimes I feel like you're not happy. And I'm like,

Right. And then say like when I was single, I was actually more miserable than that. And then I do those jokes about being single. And I find that the audience, like if you walk them there, they're open to going anywhere. Yeah. Yeah. It's kind of like when you say like when you met me, I wasn't happy. Like I was less happy than I am now. Right. Yeah. Do you have jokes like that where you're like where they don't work in a certain context, but then when you pair them with other. jokes they make sense? Yes, yes. I think like, like a lot of times when I have a joke that's not working, I'm like, I can't let this go. I'm just going to put it aside and there will be something that's going to come up later that will make it make sense, you know? Because it's like too standalone right now. Yeah. Like, like, um, like I have this joke that I added to my therapy joke, which I used to try to do, which is just like, you know, isn't, isn't your dad just like your mom's boyfriend, you know? Because it's like who, like, and then that doesn't make sense on its own if you don't know that there is kind of like a separation between us, you know? Right. Because that alone,

between you and your dad. Yeah, between me and my dad. And so then it makes sense to be like, I only hang out with my dad because we have a mutual friend in common, my mom. And because isn't, isn't that just like her boyfriend? Right. And then people can imagine being at brunch with your friend's boyfriend and then when they go to the bathroom you're like what the fuck am I supposed to talk to you about like we have nothing in common you know and then I think that's the only way it works yeah that's why some people ask me about the cards on the wall that have the jokes on them and I'm always like the reason why I have them visually is that it's only in clusters that jokes even work yeah so you have to just move them around to be like oh this dishwasher joke could go

with this other chores joke, above, blah, blah. Because sometimes what happens is I'll release a special and I'll cut out a bunch of jokes, but then those jokes that are discarded, they're good, but they're not good in isolation. Yeah. Even, like, I had jokes from, like, when I was dating. And even now, like, you'll have, like, new jokes, like, about what it was like to be dating, right? And if I do jokes about my boyfriend, which is kind of, like, shitting on him a lot, but it's also, it makes him the sympathetic character.

Like, I think in every joke, I'm kind of. of like the bitch and he's like they can tell that i'm being toxic to him if i do those single jokes after they're kind of like we don't even like that you're talking about someone like right i have to do that before i talk about him because they like him so much after those jokes that they don't want to hear me they're in his corner yeah they don't want to hear me having sex about with someone else like they want to so i have to like bring it up before and then go into being like well now i don't date you know do you ever have a thing thing with your boyfriend because he's a stand-up comic also like where you fight over a story

yeah well we fight not fight over a story it will be kind of like you'll be riffing or whatever and then one of you gets to try it on stage yeah yeah and then if it doesn't work then the other one gets to try it on stage you know have you had do you have a specific of that yeah he was trying to we have this thing where like about choking right and so he he was like, my girlfriend likes to be choked in bed and he's like, you know, because she had kind of a tough childhood and it doesn't work when he says it because there is no context to what my childhood was.

So it just sounds like, what happened to her, you know? But then when I say it, because I've already like set up like a civil war thing or like my, you know, then I'll be like, well, you don't get out of a civil war and not want to get choked a little bit in bed. And then I think that's a better version of it. Yeah. Do you have other jokes you're working on? Yes.

Do you want to share? Are you open to sharing them? Yeah. I have a, okay, I have a, and this is, this only came up because you kind of saw me refer to it in the set, but this is the joke I was going to work on. It's not like I'm not bringing up rape all the time. But I was, okay, so I went to, I went to Italy for a wedding. like last Monday I got back on Tuesday

after Labor Day and I was in Italy and I got sexually assaulted on a bus by the bus driver I know it's fine and then I say like and then I say it's Italy so it's still cute

you know because you can still put it on Instagram but it was like I got assaulted and then I've started putting it like before like a Me Too joke I have because the bus driver assaulted me

but he was like Italian, so it was really hard to take it seriously because he's like, I'm going to rape you. And you're like, not with that goofy accent. Oh, my God. And then like the next day I called my sister and I was like, I think I got molested on a bus. And she was like, you got assaulted. You're way too old to be molested.

Oh, my God. And I was like, okay. That is maybe the most hurtful part of this whole thing. Is hearing that I've been aged out of getting molested. Oh, my God. And then, oh, and then I have this where this is not a dig, you know, because everyone gets really tense when you talk about sexual assault. And I'm like, but it's like, who hasn't? Like, one in five women in America have been sexually assaulted, which, like, to put that in perspective, getting sexually assaulted for women is the same as starting a podcast for men.

It's an epidemic. Men have to stop. They have to stop podcasting one. And then the assaults. Does that part work? That part, when it works, it works really well. And when it doesn't work, people are like, I don't know anyone who started a podcast. So I don't know if it's more like a comic thing.

I think like you're saying like that it's tricky to open with that piece. I actually think that the part that's tricky is that it's so recent. Yeah. Like literally like comedy strategy plus time. Like there's just not enough time. Even me, I'm, like, having a hard time laughing at it because it's painful. Yeah. Well, I think...

I mean, it's awful. It's just awful. It is. And then I think if I don't, like, if I wait, well, it's like, it happened like a week and a half ago or two weeks over now. But it was very, like, immediately the next day, I was like, I am done with this because I have to go to a wedding. So I'm just going to have a good time. And it's weird, too, because women laugh at this a lot more than men do. The Italian story.

Yeah, because I think it is kind of like the thing I'm saying, which is like one in five women have experienced this. So, like, we're not all walking around being like, I'm traumatized. I can never, you know, live my regular life. Everyone's like, understands how you compartmentalize that and go on with your life when you're a woman. And I think men are more, like, shocked by it because that experience to them is. like when they're a good person it's very harrowing you know and so you're kind of like trying to make the men feel better in a weird way right in the audience to be like it's okay like we've all been there right you know which also may be there that's the joke too yeah like there might be a joke in that just calling out the uncomfortableness and being like it's always the men who feel less comfortable and then finding a punchline like in that universe and I used to try to be like because It used to also, like, I have this other whole Me Too section, which is just like, you know, things were like very different before me too. Like, I remember when I was in school, they took all the girls to a different classroom and they told us that if you're ever getting attacked, don't yell rape.

And then I'll say, like, do you remember what they told you to yell? And people always say, like, fire. Fire, yeah. They told you to yell fire because they were like, nobody cares if you're getting raped. Right. But men actually care about property damage. Oh, my gosh. So someone will call, you know.

And then I'm like, which is not true. Like, yelling rape does work. Like, it works. Like, I was on a date the other night and my boyfriend took a fry from my plate. And I yelled rape. Oh, my God. And he stopped, like, immediately. So it does work, you know.

And, like, the point is, like, the whole part of Me Too was, like, we should talk about it more. And now when you talk about it, people are still like, I don't want to hear about this. Right. Like, there was a point where now everyone's, like, everything is rape. But there was a point where rape wasn't rape. It was fire. Like, you couldn't even say it when you were getting raped. You had to be like, fire.

Right. Do you guys understand my euphemism? Is anyone here reading between the lines? I'm getting raped, you know? That's crazy. Yeah. And then it's like a post-me-to thing. It's crazy, though.

Like, it's almost like the Italian joke. You should try to do it, like, six months ago. Should I advise six months? That's when they're like, she's processed this. Years ago. Yeah, yeah. No, I swear to God, the week and a half ago thing is, like, I'm concerned. Right, right, right.

And I know you're telling jokes. Yeah. And I'm a fan. Of sexual assault. I love assault. Oh, you're collining name. The, no, but it's, no, the week and a half thing is, it is shocking. Like, I always had that with the sleepwalking story when I jumped through the windows.

Like, as long as people could see when I'm telling the story that I'm okay. they're good with it. But like, yeah, the, the, the recency, like, literally, like, I think it was, like, a few weeks after it happened, I started talking about it on stage. And it is, like, people being like, whoa. Yeah. Yeah. People are very, I hate that everything, even when you tell someone, like, you know, whatever, like, my childhood was like this. It's immediately like, oh, no.

Right. And you're like, oh, okay. I also think the audiences don't, especially in a short set, audiences don't know what they're okay. They're allowed to laugh at. So I think that there's definitely that thing kind of like, wait, are we allowed to laugh at, are we supposed to love at that part? Yes.

Because I don't want to be the person laughing at that part. Yeah, I don't want to be the wrong laffer. Yeah. I think like I started starting with it because I was like, don't get comfortable with me as a different version. Like, get comfortable with this darkness, and then if you guys are good, we'll, like, we'll, like, get through this and then, you know. They do, like, I will say, it's almost over. Like, we're almost done with the right part.

It's almost over. Okay, the final thing we do is working out for a cause. Is there a nonprofit that you like to give to? And then we will contribute and link to them in the show notes. Yes. I, well, I did teach for America. I, like, believe in education. And my boyfriend's sister runs a really good, like, theater for underserved kids in D.C. It's called Theater 202. And it's for, like, kids who don't have a lot of resources to do musical theater, which I am explicitly against musical theater. But I think the cause in itself is good. Yeah. In theory. In theory, it's a really good idea. So, okay, awesome. Well, we'll contribute to that. We'll link to them in the show notes.

Casey, this is like, I mean, you're, I just am in awe of your comedy. I can't wait to see what you do next. This means so much to me. I mean, I'm a huge fan growing up because I'm so young, you know. Jesus. Working it out because it's not done. We're working it out because there's no... That's going to do it for another episode of Working It Out.

You can follow Casey on Instagram at KC Shorneme. You can watch the full video of this on our YouTube channel. Check out for Biggs.com and sign up for the mailing list to be the first to know about my upcoming shows. Our producers of working it out are myself along with Peter Salomon, Joseph Barbiglia, Mabel Lewis, and Gary Simon. Sound Mix by Kate Balinski's special thanks to Jack Antonoff and Bleachers for their music.

Special thanks as always to my wife, the poet Jay Hope Stein. We did a Jokes and Poems event at Joe's Pub the other night. It was super, super fun. Sign up for the mailing list to find out about when the next one is. We're going to do one again soon here in New York City, I think, in November. Special thanks, as always, to our daughter, Una, who built the original Radio Fort made of pillows. And thanks, most of all, to you who are listening. If you're enjoying the show, rate it and review it on Apple Podcasts.

I know it sounds ridiculous and fickle, but write a little review and say what your favorite episode is. That's how people can figure out in the 180 episodes where to begin. How would you even know where to begin? So check them out. Thanks most of all to you who are listening. Tell your friends, tell your enemies, tell your drunk friend who wants to get on stage at an open mic. Pull them aside and say,

hey, I know I can't stop you from getting on stage right now, but maybe take five minutes and listen to a small portion of a podcast called Working It Out where Mike Barbigley talks about the creative process with other comedians and writers that might give you a little bit of background before you jump in. Thanks, everybody. We're working it out. We'll see you next time.

Thank you.