Mike Birbiglia's Working It Out - 188. Caleb Hearon: Improv Saved His Life

Episode Date: October 20, 2025

Comedian Caleb Hearon just turned 30 and he’s already got an hour-long HBO special, hosts a hit podcast (So True with Caleb Hearon), and  was named one of the top social media influencers of 2025 by Rolling Stone. But it hasn’t been an easy road. Caleb talks with Mike about his battles with suicidal ideation, how improv comedy saved his life, and how he drew on the passing of his estranged father for his comedy special. Plus, Caleb and Mike discuss the value seeing stand-up live vs. on TV, and come up with a plan to go off the grid and live in a cabin in the mountains together.Please consider donating to KC Tenants Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Um, you've said that you don't respect straight guys as a rule. Yeah. Um, what's the, what's the disrespectful thing that you think about me that you're not saying? Oh, God. What you're doing? Swing away. Straight. Still?

Yeah. Is that still the truth? Okay. You never know. It's, my life is long and things are. Is that the truth? That is the voice of the great Caleb Heron. Caleb Heron.

Fantastic stand-up comedian is a new special on HBO called Model Comedian. It's hilarious. He hosts a podcast called So True with Caleb Heron. He's been doing stand-up and improv for years and years, and he's having a big moment right now. We're just walking into the studio. A fan of his came up, and they were chatting. It was very sweet.

He's a very sweet guy, a very funny person. We have really fun conversation today. We'd never met. It was a great example of when the podcast becomes really fun for me. just meeting a new person, who I think is hilarious. Also in the studio today with him are two of his associates, Chance and Michelle, who are really sweet and funny. For those of you who don't know,

we actually just launched Working It Out Premium, so you notice if you're on Apple Podcasts in the feed, there's a new episode that you can only access if you subscribe to Working It Out Premium. We did an episode that is called Mike Punches Up Your Jokes. I take your jokes, the audio from people sent in email to us jokes to working at iPod at gmail.com and we play them on the premium feed and we talk about what works about the jokes

and what's not as strong of the jokes and some possible tags. You also, if you sign up for premium, you get an ad-free version of the podcast. It's $4.99 a month. You get these extra episodes. You get no ads ever. you help support our show. We appreciate it. There will be more bonus content like that coming soon. Check it out on the premium feed on Apple Podcasts. Love this talk with Caleb Herron today. This year he was named one of the 25 most influential creators of the year by Rolling Stone, where he outranked, wait for it. Mr. Beast. We talk about that today. A one-sided feud between him and Mr. Beast. We get into that. We talk about Kansas City, Caleb from Kansas City. We talk about his new special on HBO.

talk. You're going to love this one. Enjoy my chat with the great Caleb Herron. You were just making a joke about the Don't Think Twice poster on the wall. Do you have a personal story with it? Dude, you can never understand. I love this movie. I love your movie so much. You don't have to, by the way. And I do. I would be honest if I didn't. I really would tell you if I was like I would give notes. But I thought it was so wonderful and you can't understand the havoc it wreaked on my college improv team. I hear that a lot. I'm dead serious. I hear that a lot. It was me and Chance and a couple of our other buddies that watched it. And it just like, I think it was the first time we reckoned with the idea that like there's a, that making it is like

a thing and it's going to happen or not happen and that that means something in some way. It fucked us up. No, it does, it does hit home with improvisers particularly and I find bands. A lot of people have that same thing with bands. Yeah. Someone will break out from a band and be like a solo act. Yeah. There's so many things I love about it. I really could go on and on.

I mean, Tammy Sager, I've been a fan of hers for so long. Unbelievable. I just think she's a genius and getting to see her in it. But probably my favorite part that we talk about all the time. We actually rewatched it like a couple weeks ago. Chance and I and our friend Holmes, we got high on the couch and rewatched it. And my favorite part is when he goes, I just, I just, I felt. it to be true that if I didn't get this,

I was going to kill myself. Yeah, yeah. Oh, if you had to keep living like us? My favorite. I just, yeah, I love that movie. I have to give credit to Chris Getherd. Chris Getherd, that was stolen from a real conversation that he had in real life when one of his friends got the show.

It's so fucking funny, dude. That's so fucking funny. There's something about that show, and you auditioned for the show a couple times. Something about that show that feels, like, and this is why I did it in the movie. It's like, that feels like the government of comedy. Yeah. Like, if there is an official comedy show, that's it. Yeah. That's all we have. It's like the only place where comedians get to be next to legitimate power and star, like,

stardom. It's like you're next to the famous person of the week and this musician, you know, and it, yeah, it really drives people crazy, but there's so many, there's so many killer, killer moments in that movie. I love it as a whole piece, but just so many beautiful, like, moments that actually when we watched it for the first time when we were, you know, teenagers, we didn't actually know yet how I've returned to moments of that movie in my head and been like, that is identically how that went.

I've lived it now, and it was very funny to me. You auditioned for SNL twice, and you've said like it was the best thing that ever happened to you not getting on the show in a way. Yeah, it's funny because I, in the press cycle for the HBO special, especially a lot of people have brought up the SNL stuff and I'm very honest about being happy that I don't work there.

But I don't have a grudge against the place. I just think a lot of the way they do things is really psycho. And everyone knows it. And now there's kind of this new era of like going back to pretending that it's not crazy there. And not getting it was, yeah, absolutely the two best things that didn't happen to me. But the first time I really, really wanted it. Can you say more about like why? Because it seems obvious to me why it's better for you to have not gotten it.

But like, what are you able to do now because you didn't get it? Well, I think it really like it lit a fire under me to not get it the first time. I was really, you know, Steve Higgins was like, you should be doing internet videos. And I wasn't at the time. And I was like, I don't want to do internet videos. And he was like, too bad. And I really did need to hear that.

You know what I mean? I was like, he like pulled you aside at the audition? No, when we were, because it was during, the first time I did it, I was still living in Chicago at the time. And we, like, had to go and have drinks with them, like a round table of drinks. So were you at, like, I.O. or Second City?

Yeah, I was in I.O. I. And they saw me on a showcase. And then they called me and had me come. and they'd have drinks with you in Chicago before they decide if they're going to fly you out. Wow. And Steve, during the drinks was like, kind of giving me the business.

Like, he was like, what do you do for a living? And I think at the time I had so many day jobs in Chicago, but I think I worked at an ad agency. And he was like, do you write copy? I was like, no, I tried to just like write comedy. I don't really want to get into writing at work. And he was like, that's stupid. If you can get paid to write to it.

Like, really just like kind of get. And I was like, okay, this is kind of intense. I owe for the listeners, if people don't know, it was Improv Olympic in Chicago, So copyright infringement, it's called I-O. Yeah. That's the long story short. They can't use the word Olympic.

Yeah. So you did that. And then while you were in Chicago, were you doing stand-up at the same time? Kind of. I really, like, quickly into doing improv and stuff was like, this, I need to do more. Like, just doing the improv shows,

I was like, I need to be doing solo stuff. I need to be writing. It doesn't feel like the improv thing really goes anywhere. Sure. And I, like, three months in, I started talking like this. And my friends were like, you're annoying. And I was like, absolutely. I was like, absolutely.

I know that. But I started doing mostly sketch and characters and stuff and had done stand-up in college but kind of got away from it because so many, the open mics were nightmares and the stand-ups were assholes and I didn't like the vibe of the room. Yeah. And then I eventually found a kind of hybrid thing where I was doing like, it was like me, Meg Stalter, Sarah Squirm, Grace Kulin-Schmidt, Holmes,

in Chicago, there were like these alt rooms where you could do like, it was all experimental, but it was like we were doing like PowerPoint comedy and like weird mixes of like character and stand-up. Yeah. And then through that, I was like, oh, I actually can just do stand-up in these rooms. Yeah. So I pivoted into just doing stand-up again.

That's a great scene. It's an awesome scene. I didn't know all those people came up at the same time. Yeah, we were all in Chicago around the same time. There's probably people I'm forgetting as well, but there's so many funny people in Chicago at that time doing like the hideout and the shit hole and like a bunch of those all rooms. Wow.

So you moved up there and then how did you end up and making it to, we were talking before the podcast about you live in New York and Kansas City. Yeah. How did you make the leap to New York? Well, so I lived in Chicago for a while, and then I told myself, like, it's so funny because end of 2019 is when I did that first S&L audition. I flew to New York and did the screen test, didn't get it. And then that was, well, I guess that was middle of, that was like August or summer of 2019.

And then I was like, I'm going to start doing videos. And next year I'm quitting my job, no matter what, moving to L.A. And then I started doing videos. It took a little bit, but it started going well. and then I quit my day job. I was working as an assistant at an ad agency at the time. I was like, I'm done. I got to go chase comedy.

Yeah. And January of 2020, I quit my day job with benefits. And then COVID hit. And so I was like driving for Uber Eats during COVID. And then my lease was up and I was like, I'm just going to move to L.A. anyway. So I moved to L.A. during COVID because I said I would. And then that actually turned out to be a really good choice.

And then sometime during COVID, I got my first writing job over Zoom. And so then I lived in L.A. for a couple of years. And then my dad died in 2022. And I started going home a lot to do dead dad stuff. And then, as it's called. And there's a checklist. Big one. Got to do a lot of shit.

You went to a legal Zoom. When your dad dies, you'll meet these five documents. Basically. And the funniest thing to me was when they're like, you need seven death certificates. I was like, will a picture of the body work? Like, he's dead, y'all. Like, there's really no. I'm not faking it, but I was doing all that stuff.

And then I was really kind of falling back in love with home. And I'd been writing for TV long enough that I had a little bit of money saved. I was like, I'm just going to buy a house back at home and kind of go back and forth between L.A. And then eventually I left L.A. and came to New York like a year ago. So you've had like a wild five years. It's been a weird one. It's interesting because you talk about how you are happy. Yeah.

Yeah. Which I get a lot of feedback on. People are like, okay, and how and why? Yeah, what's the feedback? Yeah, people are very confused by that. Because you also talk about suicidal ideation. So it's like, how are those in concert with one another? Well, one was going to win.

One of them has ambition. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's one's going to have to win and we'll see which one. No, I think like, I don't know, I'm just, it's just all things are true. Everything is bad. I'm so scared. I don't understand why the world is so the way that, is. I think it's, it's, it makes no sense to me that so many people are suffering when so many

people have it so well. And that all does still weigh on me the way that it did when I wanted to kill myself. But there, there just gets to a point where you're like, okay, then either kill yourself or find a way to deal with it. Yeah. And so you just find a way to deal with it. You know? I get that. Or you don't. And then it's the other thing. Right. Yeah. What's that again? Suicide. Jesus. We're supposed to say it hushed. We're not supposed to talk about it. The, um, one of the things I love about your special is that you force the audience to say hey fat ass or a variation on it so that you'll have a comeback yeah one of your comebacks to it people should watch the special it's so funny but i was thinking when i was watching it

when you toured that you must have gotten some wild reads of that yeah yeah yeah because i've done crowd work stuff where you're like essentially like priming the audience to say something it's like you see some wild variations yeah you get like a version of honestly there's one of we were we me and Michelle went to a socialist book event last night and when they opened it up for the Q&A there was immediately an old guy who jumped up and did a three minute monologue with no question and he was like he was like a little out of his mind

in a way where it's like he's our community you know but like he was like you know the real estate investors and I'll tell you another thing too and we're all kind of like yes sir and that's what it's like opening it up to the audience at a stand-up club it's like someone who's been drinking since noon

this is their one day out for the month and if you give them a moment that's your fault you know what I mean And you get some crazy ones. Right. And I love it. What was, was it that someone had like a really good read of it? Like a bully read?

Did you ever hit people where you're like, oh, this person was a bully? Yeah, that's how I found the bit actually in that bit. I was hesitant about whether or not to put that bit in the special because I, crowdwork in specials I often really hate. And I was like, I don't know if I want to do that. It's also not their job to be funny. It's mine. And so I have real like dilemmas about it.

And I ended up doing it because, because I really like how it ended up fitting in the whole hour. But part of how I found the joke was that I was like testing out an initial version of the joke that wasn't at all about me pushing back on the way they were saying it. And then there was just like a couple times early on in that bit that someone was so excited to do it that I was like, you really wanted to call me fat. Like you really, like you were excited. That really hurts.

Like you can see it in their eyes that you're like, this meant a lot to you to get to do this. Yeah. And it's very funny to me. Totally. Well, it's interesting because your podcast is so kind of you And your special is so you I feel like you probably get a lot of people Even on the street just now someone came up and was just talking talking talking to you

As though they know you Yeah That must be like an odd byproduct of the type of comedy you do It is I actually prefer the it's all very new to me And I have learned that I prefer when someone's just like Just like oh hey Caleb how's it going man right i prefer that to like the like um setting apart like oh my god you know right which i don't i'm not faulting anyone or making fun of anyone who's like that because i know that it can be like

like that but i i really prefer i would love to be treated normally and i would love to feel normal and um that it's a new thing that i'm kind of not sometimes and so i like i like when someone's just like hey Caleb how's it going i think that's really nice i have to say like one time in kansas city i was playing there and i know you love kansas city Do your, wait, give us a sell for Kansas City, yeah. Well, you were probably about to. No, no, you can give a real one. My real cell in Kansas City, oh, man, Kansas City, the people are nice, the streets are wide, the trees are tall.

It's very green. It's a beautiful, beautiful place to live. It's right in the middle, so it's easy to, for people like us, it's really easy to get everywhere. It's like an hour and a half flight from Chicago and Atlanta, three from L.A., three from New York. We just got a brand new international airport, so it's making my life a lot easier. Nice. There's an incredible tenant union, like the strongest tenant union in the country that's doing really, really good work, protecting renters and working people in the city from a lot of the things that are ruining so many of our cities. It's a blue city, but it's not, you still feel like you're in the world.

Like, it is in the middle of a sea of red, and so you have to get along with everybody and figure things out. But I love it there. And I'm always talking about how great it is because I just think it's, I think it's a wonderful place to live. For some I ever went to Kansas City, I decided, okay, it's the home. barbecue. Every day I'm going to eat at a different barbecue. It felt so sick your whole trip. I've never felt sick.

It felt like my blood stopped. Yeah. After five days, I went to Arthur's. I went to like, you know, like all the different ones. And I looked up all the different ones. I literally felt like I think my body's going to stop moving. Yeah. And it will? Yeah. And so now, like, I'll have the barbecue today, but like, but I don't do two. I, from then on, I don't do two

days in a row. No. You've said that you don't respect straight guys as a rule. Yeah. What's the, what's the disrespectful thing that you think about me that you're not saying? Oh, God. Swing away. Swing away.

Straight, straight, still? Is that still the truth? Okay. You never know. It's, Mike, life is long and things are. Life is long and people change. I'm glad to hear it. Straight.

Married 17 years. Yeah. Congratulations. That really is beautiful. Thanks. That being said. That being said. I think you could have a gay or haircut.

Okay. Yeah. Fair. I think you could have a gay or haircut. Okay. Yeah. That's it. When you say that, what do you mean?

Like, just, I think you could do it a little more. When you're saying gayer, you mean more fashionable? Yeah. Yeah. Of course I could. Yeah. I mean, this hair says I've given up in 10 different ways. I think it's working for you, but I think if you let me get my hands.

in there, I think we could do something really special. Yeah, people need to work harder. And I don't mean everybody. A whole bunch of people are working quite hard. Yes, sure. I mean, people in my life. That's really funny. I mean, like, creatives.

Like, mostly the creatives I meet in Brooklyn, they're like, oh, my God, life is so hard. I'm doing so much. And I'm like, you tell me about, they tell me about their day. And I go, you're not. Right. You're not doing much. There's a lot of sitting around going on. Yeah.

Just work harder. Well, I think it sounds like you probably got that from your mom, because your mom had worked like three jobs when you were a kid. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like I got it for my dad, because my dad's a doctor and, like, in his free time, I got his law degree, so it's, like, always working.

I have the same kind of thing. Yeah. I'm just like, but it's a little bit of an illness, too. Totally. I don't think that hard work is virtuous. I think that if you want, I think that if you want an interesting, fun, full life, working hard as a piece of it. Yeah.

I don't think that you should be exclusively working hard. I don't think the hard work should come before joy or relaxation or family or friends necessarily all the time. But I think, yeah, I think just people should work a little harder because they're always talking about the things they want, but then the work often doesn't match up to it. Yeah. Is there anything from watching Meryl Street perform on that movie that you learned?

You know, one of the, okay, so when we did a big table read before the movie, like, and everyone came in person and did a big table read, which was very cool. Because then you also get to meet everyone before, you know, you did the thing. And it's very, it can be intimidating. So I was excited to meet everybody. and I got to watch Meryl and Hathaway and Emily Blunt

Stan was on Zoom because he was in Italy or something which tracks but I got to watch them make choices about the character in the moment like they you know Merrill would do a line of Coke

and she would perform a kidding she would perform a line and then she would like kind of just take a second and like redo it quickly in the way that you're like that's how she's probably going to do it in the movie

and it was so fun to just watch her process and to watch, too, that, like, she's doing this in front of a bunch of people and making choices and then rethinking them and, like, actually doing the work of making the choice for the character in the moment in front of people. Yeah. And I think that's very humble and very cool. Yeah. Especially for someone who could phone it in.

Merrill can phone it in if she wants. She's got it like that. Yeah, yeah. It's, like, totally decided. She's a legend. Yeah. And I just thought, I was watching that, and I was really, like, I actually could do so much better at that.

And I could work, it just made me want to work harder. I was like, I can be more prepared, I can do better, I can, you know, if I catch myself phoning it in, I actually could do, I could do even better and work even harder and be more present because that was very inspired. I think that's what part of, like, what improv teaches you in a way. I always think about improv as being like, to your point, there's no economic upside of improv. Like everyone, like, you and I both know some of the best improvisers in the world who are. are just out of work. Yeah. Because there's no, unless you figure out

how to turn it into being an actor, being a writer, being a director, a producer, whatever. There's just no upside. I mean, you can't sell that as a product. Yeah. Or maybe 10 people can.

Ben Schwartz can. Ben Schwartz can. And does. Ben Schwartz. Ben Schwartz. Ben Schwartz and T.J. and Dave, and I think the list is maybe five more people. Might be the lot.

Yeah, those might be the ones. But it is an interesting case of like, of like, it does, do you feel like your improv, helps you on a daily basis, things like the table read or things like, you know, the other stuff you do. Like, how does it inform what you do? Yeah. Improv changed my life. Probably, honestly, save my life. I think improv, like, very much, like, I'm a huge believer in improv. I think everyone should train an improv if they can, even just for life. I think it makes you

more present. I think it makes you a better conversationalist. I think it makes you enjoy, it's all about noticing and paying attention. And I think truly being happy is about noticing and paying attention. And there are so many things in life that can be boring if you let them be, but are exciting and wonderful and beautiful if you just pay attention to them. And improv, it's every, yeah, I'm a, I would be a horrible stand-up if I wasn't trained in improv. I would be a horrible writer if I wasn't trained in improv. I would be a worse friend. I really do think that improv deciding to train in improv when I was in college and then after is like the best thing that ever happened to me. Yeah. I really believe in it. What does the blank page look like for you? Like,

Where do you start from when you're writing stand-up? I never write it down. Oh, you don't? I never write it down. Do you bullet points? Yeah, eventually. I almost always start from the stage. And what I'll do is I'll do someone else.

I'll do like a show that isn't my own that I didn't sell the tickets to. Yeah. And like be on someone's lineup or something. And I'll do like, I'll open with a joke that I'll usually open with something that I know works that's older. Yeah. And then I'll do a bunch of new stuff. And then somewhere in the middle I'll do something that I know works. Yeah.

And then a bunch of new stuff. and then I'll close with an old one. Yeah. And I just work it. That's how I went to a couple open mics when I started, and I was like, absolutely not. I'm going to have to find a different way to do this. Yeah.

Mikes weren't for me. Yeah. So I hardly ever end up with a fully written down joke on paper. Yeah. The time I got the closest ever in my career so far was the HBO special. Yeah. And even then it was bullet points. Interesting, yeah.

Yeah. But did you have to give them a transcript? I think my team sent them like a transcript of like a video of it or something, but I didn't sit down and write it out. Um, do you ever have shows where, where people object to you talking about different, certain topics? Yeah. Like, what is it, what does that like?

What does it feel like? Mostly, my audience is, uh, pretty, I don't get a lot of yelling out in the moment. Yeah. I don't get a lot of hecklers. You know a lot of emails. I get, I get, I get DMs, yeah. Yeah, I get stuff like that. I think we might have a similar audience in that way.

Yeah. They're not rude people. Yeah. But they're like, I have some thoughts. Yeah. I had a really interesting one, actually. The whole time I have a huge chunk of the HBO special is talking about the Holocaust and this tour that I went on.

And to me, the politics of it are so clear. It's the hardest thing I've ever cracked. And I did it at a show in D.C. And I did a small co-headlining tour with a musician friend of mine just for shits and giggles. Oh, wow. It was so fun. And she did like 30 minutes of her latest album,

and I did 30 minutes of stand up. Then we had some drag queens. It was a blast. So fun. I got, she and I both got barraged by this one woman after the D.C. show. Okay. It was like calling me anti-Semitic, like how dare I joke about. Oh, really?

Yes, very upset. Right. And so... Because just to give context to people, you talk about going to, on a tour of a concentration camp. Yes. Yes. Yeah. And, and, yeah, and so, but I actually, I almost never engage with this kind of stuff.

Yeah. But she seemed so... I looked at her page and she, like, works for a nonprofit. and she seemed very like someone I would get along with. So I accepted the DM request and I was like, you know, hey, I'm so sorry you feel that way. I would love to talk more about it. Like I think the politics are so clear and what I'm after here is this and what do you think about that and what made you, what moment of it made you feel this way? Because I'm interested.

And she was like, I don't dialogue with anti-Semites. Oh, gosh. And I was like, okay, well, I would love to again, and I tried again. I was like, I would love to talk about what would make you say that and what would make you think that about this material. And who knows why I'm doing this. I guess I just found it. It was kind of jarring that someone who seems so rational based on what I was seeing other than this,

like looking at their page and what they support and some of the things they posted. No, I feel the same way. And then I, yeah, she again was like, the fact that you even feel comfortable joking about that is a sign of blah, blah, blah. And I was like, okay, well, if you want a refund, let us know, we'd be happy to get your money back

and all the best. Wow. So something really happened there. Right. But it'll be stuff like, and that also is very sparing. I honestly don't get a lot of that. But that was probably the one of the last five years that has stuck out to me.

That is something that I am similar about, though. Like when I'm touring like a new hour, if I'm noticing there's like five emails about like a topic that I'm hitting. I'm like I am similar to you sort of curious. Like, oh, how come this is a thing that's bumping people? Yeah. And you to do it, to do, I generally think, look, if there's that many people upset about it, I'm doing a bad job. Yeah. Because the politics should be clear.

I've built my credibility. I've spent enough time in the set telling you who I am that you should feel comfortable letting me walk a little bit. Right. Like, you know, I'm thinking, like, I've, I know that this is a sense of material. I've worked really hard to be able to do this. Yeah. So when it doesn't go, that's one of, it's such a, it's literally one person in many,

many thousands from that tour. Yeah. That I'm like, you got to let it go. But it does confuse me because I'm like, I want to understand on a human level what's not connecting here between two rational people who mostly agree. Completely. And you just got to. let it go.

You were named the sixth most influential social media creator in the world. You outranked Mr. Beast, which resulted in Mr. Beast. And I saw this when it happened, tweeting about you in frustration. But then I just found out today he called you to apologize? He did, yeah. What did he say? He, you know, he tweeted the thing and he tweeted like, oh, he only has a million followers or something. Like some kind of like...

He was like, this guy, they think that this guy with a million followers is more influential than me, what I do to piss off the Rolling Stones or whatever. And, yeah, he DM me and was like, hey, could I call you? I want to apologize. And I was like, yeah, you really don't need to,

but if you'd like to, no worries, like, here's my number. And he called me and he was very apologetic. I thought it was really nice of him. Yeah. I was like, don't worry about it. I genuinely thought it was funny. I'm totally not bent out of shape about it.

No worries. I also, for the record, agree with you. To me, it's very obvious that he's more influential than me. I'm not really interested in influence as like a... That's not what I'm after. Right. It's a byproduct of my job. But yeah, I was like, whatever, man.

No worries. Like, we're good. And he was very, he was very like, yeah, I just think like sometimes the people around me get me spun up about this stuff. And I was like, you should probably get better people around you. Oh, God. And he was like, you're alarmingly nice. Like, why do you think that is?

Like, I'd love to understand a little bit more about you. And he, and we talked for a little bit about life. Oh, that's nice. It was perfectly sweet. It was a perfectly sweet thing. I feel bad for the guy in many ways. I can't imagine, you know, I struggle with, like, the level of attention that I get. Yeah.

I can't imagine what life is like for him. I don't want it. Yeah. And I'm like, God love you. That, the whole thing seems stressful. I bet if I were in your position, I would also get spun out about things like that. Yeah. And so, whatever.

Who cares? Yeah. I was just like, rock on. That's fine. Yeah. Oh, you talked about how. when you were crafting your special, you wanted to take out stuff related to grieving your father because it was for the live audience only.

Yeah. Like, do you think you'll talk about that moving forward? Because it feels like it's so fertile for, like, I did a whole special, but my dad's stroke. So it's like I know, like, it seems like you could be hilarious in that space. Yeah. I left in a good chunk of it. There was just some stuff that got, that started to deal with my family's grieving. That didn't really feel like it was mine to tell in a record.

recording forever on HBO. There were a couple of years at the beginning of my stand-up career where I turned down every opportunity to tape stand-up, like the Comedy Central presents and all that stuff, because I really had a pretty firm belief for a while that stand-up is meant to happen in the room. And I didn't want to record it for me personally. And then I was like, but you love stand-up specials.

You love so many people's recorded stand-up. And so my opinion changed on that. But there is still some stuff that I'm like, there are certain things that are for in the room and certain things that are for the taping. Yeah. I mean, Sands, the crowd work piece I put in my special, all of my crowd work is for In the Room.

And I love crowdwork. It's usually a decent part of the show. But yeah, I just, I feel like there's some things, especially when it gets into like the very specific ways that my grandma was grieving, that were quite funny, but just aren't mine. I just felt like if I feel like I would need to call her and get her permission to put it in,

then I just shouldn't do it. And totally. You know? And that was just for me. I think it was, I loved it in the room. I thought it was great material. I know what you mean, though, about stand-up being an in-the-room art form. Like, it is, there is something lost always when you see someone live and then you see the film special.

Don't you feel? Yeah. Yeah. Well, how do you feel when you watch it? Because I'll tell you this is the first time I've, this is my first stand-up special. And the first time I watched it, oh, Mike, I was so sick. I was like, I hate, this feels like a flop. I was like, I hate this.

It doesn't feel anything like it felt in the room. And filming it in general, the vibe of everyone knowing that they were there for a taping. The special, I love the special. I'm so proud of the special. It does not feel the way it felt on the tour. Something is lost. And I don't think I could have done a better job for what it was at the time. And the team I got was so incredible.

But I just think, like, yeah, there's an extra spark missing, especially when you inherently and especially you're limiting yourself from like, you're not going to come in and spend 10 minutes talking about the parking situation. at the venue. Of course. But in a live show, if the parking situation at the venue is crazy, you have to. No, it's almost like,

as a viewer, you're putting yourself in the shoes of what it would be like if you were in the audience. It's like, it's like a twice removed experience in a certain way. Yeah, it's like the shadow on the cave. Yes.

It's like, it's not the person. It's not being in the room with the candle. That's right. It's almost like you're imagining if you'd seen a show. Yeah. And I love the special and it's a totally different thing.

And you have to appreciate it in a different way. then I couldn't have lucked out harder with everyone who worked on it. Like, I really think, like, I got to success or flop. I really got to have my fingerprints on it. Yeah. And I'm proud of it. But I really, really, really feel that if people, like, stand up, the best thing they can do is go see it in the room

because the taping will never be the same. That's why I listen to specials more than I watch them. Because it's one degree of, like, you can imagine you're there. Yeah. versus watching every frame of it. And just going like, oh, okay, I'm here and this is not as good as actually it would be. Yeah.

How did you feel the first time you watched one of your stand-up specials before it came out? I find it to be devastating. Thank God. Thank you for saying that. I find it always to be devastated. No, it's awful. Oh, thank God.

You bought a business suit when you were 15. I have a lot of questions about that. Okay. What did you think the plan was? Like, you literally, in your special, you say it, but I'm like, what else? What did you? What was step one? What was step two?

I really, there was a legitimate need for the business suit in the sense that I was going to these student conferences. I was a student officer. I was a locally, then regionally, then state, then nationally elected officer in a family values organization. Wow. When I was in high school, yes. Is that religious? Well, it's that thing. It's that thing where like they can't say it, you know, but it basically.

Why? Because it's like government sanction or something? Technical. I mean, it's in the school. It's like a school organization. Understood. And so the thing is like, we love family. You know, but it's like, only one kind. You know, it's very, like, specific. Only one kind. There were people of other faiths in it. It felt very Christian.

Yeah. But, yeah, I was in that. And so I was running for office in that. I just, I grew, I grew very poor. And so I think anything I could do when I was a teenager to, like, distance myself from the idea that I was going to remain poor or be like the people where I'm from, which thank God I have worked on because that's such a nasty idea. But the idea that I was going to remain poor and stay in my hometown, anything I could do to distance from that.

So the suit was my like, I got a suit. Yeah. Guys who wear suits are like a pretty big deal. Totally. And I really, I thought, I think that there's part of it probably on a subconscious level when I think back on it that's like I was fat, closeted, poor. Like, I wasn't, like, one of the thin, rich hot kids. Sure.

And so I'm like, what I can do... From high school musical? From high school musical. Ever heard of them? The thin, rich hot kids, number one, number two, number three, number four in the cast. But yeah, I was like, what I can do is be really smart, and I can be really accomplished. And accomplishments were my, like, distancing tool from these other things that were not good about me. And suit was part of that. Look the part.

Suit was part of it. Yeah. Yeah. And my mom was certainly like... And you got it? You got the suit? She got me the suit. That's nice.

I mean, my mom, my mom is way cooler than me and always has been. And so I think that when I was in high school, she must have been like, it's tough that I'm raising a nerd, but I guess if he needs the suit. Okay, this is a slow round. Okay. Who are you jealous of? You know, I've seen you ask people this. Yeah.

And I've really, I've thought about it. I've actually, it's funny because since we've, it's been a while. Don't block me. Block you? Don't block me. What do you mean? You're talking about the question, but you're not answering. No, no, I want to say, I want to say it's the slow round.

Okay. I want to say that I've really, I've turned over people's answers on this. And I've thought about my own several times in the shower over the past couple weeks. Okay. And I didn't land on one. definitively before I came in here. But I want to say, I think it's really sweet when someone, like, I think, like, Bob Odin Kirk said, like, people whose kids are still young.

Yeah, yeah. How convenient, Bob. I love that. That's so sweet. How convenient, Bob? What a sweet, perfect answer. I know, but I'm like, I watched it, and I was like, I love Bob. I'm a huge fan of his.

I know him a little bit. And I'm like, I just am like, oh, I want to say something, I want to say something that feels not safe, though, that feels so like, of course, that's a beautiful answer. So who's the person you thought of, but you just. didn't say. Who I thought of that I was jealous, but I didn't say. It didn't immediately come to mind and I'm trying to, that's what I want to. Who is your don't think twice person, like the first person to make it in your group,

or was it you? Unfortunately, it was me. I'm so sorry, it was me. But who am I jealous of? I'm not dodging it, and I want to get it. Who am I jealous of? I would say, I will say, in a blanket way, all of my musician friends, and I will say very specifically, my friend Katie Crutchfield,

who is a musician who performs as Waxahatchie, she, I think, has such a wonderful grasp on creativity and having a huge career moment and making beautiful, wonderful, specific art, but also living such a wonderful private life and maintaining mystery and... Yeah, I love her music. I don't know anything about her. She's... I mean, I could really cry talking about her.

She's one of my favorite people on the whole earth. And I just think, I really think she has so many things figured out. She's such a tremendous friend. And I'm often very jealous of her ability to step back from situations and see it, kind of for what it is. It seems like she sees the cards laid out in a way that sometimes I'm so in it that I feel like I'm among the cards. And I'm jealous of, I'm just jealous. She gets to go away and make albums and put out music. I'm jealous of the whole thing.

I feel like I'm among the cards too You feel like you're in the cards Yeah, I like that analogy You're among the cards And you're not standing back And looking at the cards It's like, yeah, I know, I relate to that Yeah, I'm down there being shuffled around with them

Sometimes, but then you go to Sometimes you talk to a friend like that And you're like, oh, they've really got it laid out They can see where this goes and doesn't go Yeah, that's a good one Who are you jealous of? We'll cut it Will we?

Trying to think You know, honestly I don't, I used to be, I wrote that movie when I was very jealous of people. Yeah. And then that movie weirdly cured me of this jealousy. Wow. Don't block me.

Don't block me. Right now? You're talking about the question. We can cut it if you really want. Mabel, I wish you wouldn't say that. I'm jealous of people who have balanced energy. Yeah. Name one.

I don't know. I don't know who those people are. Yeah. But it's like I go through my day. feeling out of control of my own energy. Yeah. And it drives me crazy. Yeah.

You know what I mean? Yeah. I'm just like, I'll be going along, doing something, and then all of a sudden, zero. I'm at zero in a tank out of ten. And then for a run, I'll be at ten or whatever. And that's what you see on stage. Yeah.

That's when people come see me. And then afterwards, if they come up to me in the street, they're basically like, how come you're not at ten? Yeah. I'm like, dude, I put everything in my day. It's crazy I got to 10 back there. I got to 10 on stage. Yeah.

But I can't do it in life. Yeah. And so I think I can typically get myself between 5 and 7 for most of the day or 3 and 7 most of the day. Yeah. What drives me crazy is when I'm like stuck between 0 and 2. Yeah. And I'm just like, fuck. You know what I mean?

Yeah. And so I'm jealous of people who seemingly are able to fucking have stable energy all the time. That's the secret though. Everything is seemingly. Yeah, that's the thing. Everything is seemingly. Who fucking knows? Yeah.

No, you're right. You know, I really, you're a very, very, very good interviewer for a lot of reasons, but you've made it very hard for me to ask questions during this interview. You have. It's very, this all has a cadence of it. There have been multiple times that I've been like, I want to get a question into Mike because I'm curious. And then it's just almost impossible. Sounds like by design.

Thanks. Yeah, it is by design. But that's a really nice compliment. We'll cut it. What do you daydream about? Peace. Same brother. Same brother.

Same brother. Same brother. Just daydream about peace all the time. I daydream about... These two guys, daydreaming about peace all day every day. Like, playing it, like, my friends, all my friends being free to drop by my little house in the mountains all the time. Dude, we're going to, you and me, we're going to be a banjo duo in the mountains. The way I'll never do it.

It's going to be me, you, walks a hatchie. Yeah. Yeah. We'll invite the mountain goats. Yes. Yeah. I mean, God, this sounds amazing. Yeah, this is great. Cooking fucking dinners.

Yeah. You ever see, like, pictures of like a big, long outdoor table under some trees in the autumn? Yeah. And you go, I need to sit there with 20 of my friends and eat dinner. Of course. I think about this every minute of every day. What's something you believed 10 years ago that you don't believe now? 10 years ago.

There's two things that come to mind. The first thing that comes to mind is probably just that I'm a person who's incapable of being truly happy. That was a belief that I had at that age in my life that I thank God disabuse myself of. And I, yeah, I don't, I think that the problem, the issue that I was having at the time was that I viewed happy as a type of person and not a state of emotion. And I was like, oh, I'm not one of the happy people. And that's actually just not what that, that's not even how that is. That's not what that can be. That's not a, it's not a type of person. They're happy people are sometimes sad, and sad people are sometimes happy, and there's not, it's not a type of person, it's a thing that you feel.

So that's one thing. Then the other thing that came to mind immediately that made me giggle was just everyone who disagrees with me is bad. Yes. I really was in that. Amen. I really was in that. Amen. I was in that in a tough way.

I was like a really antagonistic atheist. I was a really intense, like, if you don't vote like I do, fuck. you know, I was really like everything that everyone is kind of having cultural backlash about right now is based off of the way me and my friends were behaving. It was you guys. Yes. It started with you guys. Firmly a part of it. How did you get past

that? Because I think that that's fundamentally one of the most important things that we can do as fellow citizens to one another. Yeah. Because people they do not walk in each other's shoes. You cannot know what someone what someone went through to arrive where they arrived. You cannot know.

But it's like, how did you get there? Like, if someone's listening to this and they go, oh my God, that's what I'm like. What would be your advice for them? I think that it was based in fear, that it was like, I really, I am so scared that I'm not going to be one of the good people, that I'm not going to be a good person, that I'm going to be particularly as like a white guy from a small town in Missouri, I was so scared that I was not going to be one of the good people. and that any abberance from perfection, especially politically, would make me a part of it is an insecurity about where I'm from,

but being from rural Missouri and needing to deal with my own misinformed feelings about what that means and what it means to be from a place like that, that I had a lot of ideas about like, well, because I'm not comfortable being here as a gay person, that means that this place is ignorant and bad. And that's not true. There are plenty of very intelligent, lovely, warm, empathetic people that live where I'm from. But I needed to live a little bit of life and get away for a little bit to, I think, fully know that. But this fear, there's no such thing as a perfect person. And there's no such thing as, like, perfect politics. The best thing you can do is just genuinely worry about other people.

Yeah. And I think a lot of that, like, everyone who doesn't agree with me identically fuck you. A lot of that thing is fear that if you don't feel that way, that you're complicit in bad and evil. that if you're not punishing, it's a, well, it's really a desire for punishment. We love punishment as a society. And I still feel that creep into my life from time to time in different ways,

wanting to, you know, withhold communication or warmth from a friend who hasn't texted me back quickly enough or just the idea of punishment and wanting subconsciously even people to pay is a big thing for us culturally. We have a lot of cops inside of us. And yeah, I think I would just tell someone if you're someone who's in that, that's okay.

It's a totally understandable way to feel in the world we're living in, but I do not think it's the correct way to feel. I think it's really counterproductive. It's likely not serving you, and it's certainly not serving other people. Right. And it actually doesn't make the lives

of anybody having a hard time better for you to be an asshole. Amen. And I would just, yeah, I think that's probably it. Well said. You know? Well stated. We do what we can.

Can you think of a time you were so scared that you ran away? Physically? Yeah. Oh, my God. Oh, I want to throw up. Okay. This summer, my boyfriend and I had gone, I was filming a movie Upstate, and I was so lonely and bored.

I love everyone working on the film. They're all friends, but there are often days that I wasn't working that they were. And I was like, please come up here. And so we got a house for the weekend and had a pool, which I was so excited about because I wanted to swim. And we went out there. Okay. And so we get to the house, put our bags down, immediately. on our swim trunks and are like, let's go swim.

I couldn't wait to swim. And I hadn't gotten a tattoo this summer, which I sometimes do, which ruins my swimming. It was like swim time. We go get in the pool and I'm like standing in the deep end of the pool and I feel something under my foot. And I feels like a stick. And so I'm like, oh, okay. So I grab it with my toes and pull it up to my hand.

And it's like a mossy, like gross stick. And I'm like, ew. And so I take the stick and I throw it out of the pool. And I feel another thing with my toes, and I'm like, fuck, I'm going to be cleaning this thing out with my toes the whole time. So then I grab it. It's another mossy stick. So it's a second mossy stick. I've grabbed my toes, put it my hand, and thrown it.

Feel a third thing with my toes. Like, perfect, like one beat, two beat, three beat. I feel it with my toes and I'm like, oh, that's so much softer than the stick. But it's probably just like a dish rag or something. It's a dishragger, of course. And so I grab it with my toes, and I bring it up to my hand, same as the stick. And then I pull my hand up out of the water, and it's a dead rat. Oh, gross.

Sorry. Oh, my God. It's so gross. In my hand. In my hand. That is, no. And I picked up a waterlogged dead. The rat was in your hand.

From my toe to my hand. And I, oh my God. And it was, by the way, my face is this close to the water. So the rat is right here. And I'm not exaggerating. It's like this. Oh, my God. And it's so much softer than you can imagine because of all the water.

And so I go, I go, I throw it out of the pool. It hits the fence, slides down. And I turn to my boyfriend and I was like, I need to be alone for a while. I walk directly out of the pool and don't grab any of my stuff, go into the house, walk into the first shower I can find, hadn't even looked around the house yet, first shower I can find, strip out of my bathing suit,

throw it in the sink, turn on the hot water in the sink and let it run, get in the shower and take the hot, like the hottest, scratchyest, the whole time I'm dry heaving. There's nothing you can do. Hotest dry heaving shower, hold on dry, hot, steamy, burning my skin shower. Sickening. And then I get out and I just like,

I wasn't the same the rest of the day. And I still sometimes... You'll never be the same again. No. You will never be clean from that event. No. There's nothing you can do. There's no amount of showers...

Thank you for saying this. There's no amount of showers you can take that will take away what happened. This is my fear and I want to thank you for saying it. And that's so obviously hard to hear and I know that you're right. I mean it and out of love. I know.

And it hurts. It hurts to be loved by you sometimes in this moment. Okay. Rat in toes. Toll grabs rat. Foot to hand, rat. Close to face. Close to face.

Close to face. Close to face. Oh my God. Throw it. I sometimes when there's a moment of quiet, I start dry heaving before realizing that I'm remembering it. That is so gross. I'm not kidding when I tell.

It's not like I'm not doing an affect for you or doing this for the cameras. I want to tell you that I feel really sick right now. I'm so sorry. You're okay? Do you need water? No, in the way of like my tummy feels upside down. Like I can't believe that happened to me.

I'm a good person. Right. No, no. You didn't do anything wrong? It sucked. You didn't do anything wrong. Rat in hand. You know what?

Here's a positive way looking at it. You're man of the earth. Yeah. And rats are living in the earth. That's a beautiful perspective that I won't access. And I want to thank you for bringing it. It's a light. Oh, I hated it.

I believe that Caleb is a man of the earth. He's like, kind of guy, grab a rat with his toes. Spread the words. He doesn't care. Yuck. He puts the rats up in his face sometimes. He holds the rat with his toes and then his hand. No, it's part of our mountain existence together.

It can't be. Maybe it's chapter one of our mountain story. You're planting dead rats around the property for me to find. It's you, me, some rats, watch a hatchie. Yeah, of course. Of course we're killing the name. Okay, here's some jokes. Okay.

Do you have anything that's like half-baked or a premise? Let me see if I've got anything in here. What's in the notes? You're such a joyous person to talk to him. Mike, why would you say that? That's so sweet. Stand-up. My stand-up note is my stand-up note.

Oh, nice. I'm working through here. That's what I do. It's just easier. I would love to be a notebook guy. It's way cute or more aesthetic. Oh, I've been. I've been for a long time

trying to figure out something with this. This really has disturbed me and I don't know if I can find a joke here because I'm so enraged about it. I saw a guy in Chicago. We were there. We were playing the Chicago theater. I watch a guy finish a vape,

already humiliating. He finishes a vape in public, grown man in front of other people. Finishes a vape. I watch him, he goes, he goes, tosses it into a bed of tulips. There's a trash can no further than three feet away.

The gorgeous like Chicago tulips that they plant. Gorgeous bed of tulips. He tosses a empty vape into it. I really genuinely think if I killed him, I could get off. I think that the jury would side with me if they heard my story. I just think, what is wrong with you? Yeah.

There's no purpose in it. Yeah. And there's no joke there yet, but it's bothering me. No, I think it's a great setup, and I think it's like a great topic to break open. I think it's like what you, I think to make it a full piece, you'd have to think of like what you do. Yeah. That is analogous.

I'd love to find out. One thing I was thinking of too is like I'd love to think about what I could learn about him that would let me forgive him. Oh, that's nice. Like what could he possibly tell me? Right. Like if I were to get him in an interrogation room and say, I'm either going to kill you or forgive you.

Right. Yes. What could he tell me to make that okay? Right. Like if he was, he was working at a soup kitchen that morning. nine hours straight, and he's like, the one thing I enjoy is throwing my vape in the tulips.

I like to have a vape, and then I like to find some area of beauty and get rid of that vape there. Or I would have to be like, oh yeah, you don't know this, Caleb, but those tulips are actually planted by the Pritzker family

in order to monitor. You know, I would need to know some kind of anti-capitalist. There would need to be some kind of thing that's like they actually have surveillance devices in those that contributes to the pan-off. Opticon, something would need to happen so crazy for me to let him off.

Right. Like, one of the only ways it would make sense is if this was the first scene in an action film. Yeah. And then he ducks behind a corner and you follow him. And it's like the backstage of like Mission Impossible. Yeah, exactly correct. Yeah. No, I think that's interesting.

Because, yeah, there are certain pet peeves where when you see someone do something in public. And also it does beg the question. what are they doing in private? Right. That guy did the vape thing. Crazy. In plain sight. In front of me.

In front of you. In front of everybody. A member of his beloved community, whether he knows it or not. Absolutely. Crazy. Yeah. I think like, and also, I would say like, there's two things, two directions I consider going. One is like, what do you do that's possibly, someone could perceive you as being that guy.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. What do you do that through a certain lens is that? I wanted to be mad at him, but then I realized. Then I realized, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. And then the other one is just, like, if you have an example, if you have three examples like that. Yeah. Like, that's how I always think about things in my notebook because I go, that's what the cards are for. It's like, oh, this could go with this, could go with this, could go with this, but I think that's a great, like, it's such a vivid example of something that would, that drives me nuts also. Yeah, interesting. Okay.

What else do you have? Do you have, you have other? Yeah, sorry, let me think. Let me look, allow me to look. What else? I'm just looking at my most recent ones. Oh, I've been thinking about this a lot. I saw a video of like eight girls dancing in the kitchen. It's like a TikTok. They're like dancing in the kitchen, the girls. They're singing along to a song together.

And it's beautiful, really sweet. And I loved it. And I identified it as something that is so beautiful and so slice of life. And the whole reason we're probably here. But then the caption was, how would you even explain this to a man? And I left it going like, men have listened to music. Like that just to me is like, it's like. It's so funny.

It's this bizarre celebration of girlhood that I'm so. on board with, and it's like, how would a boy get this? And it's like, well, boys have hung out with their friends. Right, right, right. That's actually not the issue with boyhood. Yeah. I just, I can't stop thinking about it. Right, right.

It's actually quintessential relatable. Yeah. And you're saying, oh, no, no, no, this is the least relatable. It might be, by the way, one of the only things men and women can both understand. Yeah, music, dancing. Hanging out with your friends. Hanging out with your friends. It's like the most universally relatable, cool thing to do.

Yeah. They're gatekeeping friendship. Yeah. And I just thought it was such a funny whiplash because I also often, when people say things like that on the internet, they're not talking about me. Yes. Actually, they're actually talking about their...

Me. Yes, exactly. They're saying you. They're thinking about me. Yeah, so I'm like, but I've read that. I'm offended also, by the way. Yeah, we're both offended. But yeah, what do you got?

That's good. I love that one. There's some new stuff. You know, there's some stuff in here. That's so funny. We'll work on the new stuff. I was, when I was starting out in comedy, I was doing a show in West Virginia,

and I was opening for this guy, and he goes, you live in New York City? And I go, yeah, and he goes, the only time I ever went to New York City, all I saw was the inside of an abortion clinic. And I said, well, you really got to spend a week there to get a feel for the town. You could swing by the Empire State Building,

and the holidays, they have the tree, at Rockefeller Center. The abortion clinics are nice. Oh, that was one of your things already. You got that, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a joke that, like, I've done a few times on stage, and, like, I kind of don't know what to do with it. You ever have jokes like that where you go, like, oh, it's fun. Yeah.

It's a true story. Yeah. I mean, it's this guy I open for, like, at this kind of middle of nowhere kind of place. Yeah. I just thought it was such a funny, it was such a funny interaction. It's very funny. funny to think about it in terms of like asking him, like, well, which one did you go to? Right.

That one's a tourist trap. I got, I'll write this on a local one that we all know to. You got into the local spots. Yeah, the idea that like he went to one of the kind of chugy ones. Right. Yeah. You went to TGI abortions. You got to go.

You got to go to the local spots. You got to go to juniors abortions in Sunset Park. Yeah. It's a family joint. Yeah. It made me think of a, I've been trying to find something with this. I saw a huge window cling on the. back of a car recently. I don't remember where I was, somewhere in the middle of the country,

and it just said, abortion ends a life. And I was like, it's really hard to tell which side of the thing you're on with that. That's just objectively, yeah, 100% by the way. That just feels like a very middle. Sometimes, too. Yeah. Hey, by the way, not to be, not to be dark about it. But abortion ends up to me, it was just like, ideally, yeah, that's the operation. Yeah, yeah, that's what's happening. Yeah, no one has a kid at the end of it. That is what's kind of the goal. You're really holding your cards over there. Yeah. Let's do working out for a cause.

Is there a nonprofit that you like to contribute to? And what we do is we contribute at the show, and then we link to them in our show notes. Yes, I would love, love, love, love. We just did actually, I do an annual benefit show for them. We just did it last week. The Tenet Union, Casey Tenants. Oh, great.

In Ken City, their work. It's a multi-generation. multi-racial working class tenant union in Kansas City. Their whole goal is to secure truly safe affordable housing for everybody. And they're fighting gentrification and the out-of-town real estate investors they're trying to buy up our city and run everybody out by jacking up the prices, which helps no one but them. They're not even our neighbors. There's tenant unions all over the country. Mine, the one I'm most passionate about is obviously Casey tenants. Incredible tenant work going on in New York as well for anyone who's listening. I truly was in such a hopeless

place politically before I got involved with the tenant union. And it reignited my hope that we actually can get something done in this time. And I just, I love it so much. That's so great, Caleb. I love it when people have genuine passion and the working for a cause section for what the organization can do. And it just sounds like a great organization linked to Kansas City, which I can't wait to visit again. And hopefully we can hang out there. Come through. You can stay at my house anytime, Mike. Oh, that would be nice. Come through. I didn't mean to invite myself. I would love for you too. I'm begging. I love

when people come to stay with me. Well, it will be the chapter two of our mountain story. It's that's, yeah, so it starts with the mouse. Yep, or the rat. The rat. And then you come and stay at the house. Rat in face, chapter one. I'll stay your house, chapter two. I'll do something to you at the house. Yeah, I'll do some sort of prank that scares you. Oh, you got to cut my hair. I would love to give you a haircut. Chapter 4. I would give you a haircut. I'll give you a haircut. I'll give you

a haircut. I'm not good at it, but I think would be fun. You know what I would do? If I, right now, if we, if you're like, Let's go do it right now. I would give a bunch. I would give a bunch more. It's got great texture. I'd give it more texture. And then I'd dye it.

What color? I would dye. I would do like a bleach blonde base. And then I would give you like leopard prints. You know who'd love that? My daughter's 10. She would love if I dyed my hair and did leopard prints. I bet she's pretty cool.

Obviously she's very cool. Yeah. So I'm saying this might be, we might have done to something. And so are you, Caleb. Thank you. Thanks for coming. Thanks for having me. Working it out.

because it's not done. We're working it out because there's no one. That's going to do it for another episode of working it out. You can follow Caleb on Instagram at Caleb Says Things. You can watch his special model comedian

on HBO and listen to his podcast So True, wherever you get podcasts. You can watch the full video of this episode on our YouTube channel. Subscribe because we're posting more and more videos. We really appreciate it when you subscribe. Check outberbigs.com to sign up for the mailing list to be the first to know about my upcoming shows.

Jenny and I are doing jokes and poems in New York City coming up soon. Be the first to know about that. Our producers of working it out or myself along with Peter Salomon, Joseph Barbiglia, Mabel Lewis, and Gary Simons. Sound Mixed by Ben Cruz,

supervising engineer, Kate Balinski, special thanks to Jack Antonoff and bleachers for their music special thanks. As always, to my wife, the poet, J. Hope Stein, and our daughter, Una, who built the original radio fort made of pillows. Thanks most of all to you who are listening.

If you enjoy the show, rate us and review us on Apple Podcast, We've got almost 190 episodes, all free, no paywall, check them out. Tell your friends, tell your enemies. Tell the guy who's thrown his empty vape into a bed of tulips. Hey, man, you may have had a rough day, but before you throw that vape into those tulips, try to listen to this podcast. It's called Mike Barbigley is Working It's Working It Out. It's where Mike Barbiglia talks to other comedians and creatives about the creative process.

It's the perfect podcast to listen to you on your walk over to the trash can. Oof, nailed it. Thanks, everybody. We're working it out. We'll see you next time. Thank you.