Mike Birbiglia's Working It Out - 190. J. Hope Stein: Eavesdropping on the Eavesdropper

Episode Date: November 3, 2025

This week poet J. Hope Stein & Mike’s wife ‘Clo’ returns to the podcast. Jen reads original poetry that Mike uses as inspiration for his bits—and the two dispute whose side of the story is being told in each. Mike and Jen discuss helpful vs. unhelpful artistic feedback, the difference between Mike in real life and Mike on the podcast, and Mike has Jen participate in The Introverted Slow Round. Plus, a phone call from Pete Homes and his wife Val!Please consider donating to Children's Hospital Los AngelesSign up for text alerts from Mike for info about live shows, pre-sale codes, and more! Text BIRBGS to 917-444-7150 Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

When I die, how long before you marry someone else? Stop it. I hate that question so much. It's the worst question. I'm never going to get married again. Boom. This interview is over. We don't have to worry because we're never going to die.

That is the voice of the great Jay Hope Stein. That is my wife, the poet, the author. She wrote a book a few years ago called Little Astronaut. that is available everywhere. She is the co-author of a book that we did together called The New One, Painfully True Stories from a Reluctant Dad with Poems by Jay Hope Stein. I think a lot of you are probably familiar with her work.

She has poems that I read in my special, The New One, from Broadway. She's back on the podcast today with some new poems that I love. We've been doing some shows together called Jokes and Poems here in New York City. Over at Joe's Pub, we did one last month. We're doing one in a couple weeks from now. And they're intimate shows. It's at shows pub. It's probably about 160 seats.

And so it usually sells out really quickly. If you want to be the first to know about those shows, sign up for my text message alerts. This is a new thing we're doing. Because a lot of times our email list goes to people's spam. And so we're doing text messages in addition to that. All you need to do to sign up is text Burbigs, B-I-R-B-I-G-S to the phone number 9-17-4-4. I will repeat that.

Texts berbigs to 911-44-4-7-1-50 to get all the latest live show info. That number will also be in the description of this episode in case you didn't immediately memorize it. Another thing I wanted to mention is that in January, I will be performing in one week of the Simon Rich play All Out on Broadway, comedy about ambition. Last year was the first version of the show is called All In. It had John Mullini and Fred Armisen. I remember Nick Kroll, a lot of great folks. Anyway, this year, it's a rotating cast of people. I know Jim Gaffigan's doing it.

The week I'm doing it is January 13 through 18, which will also have, I know, Cecily Strong, as well as Wayne Brady. It is a really funny script. It is music by the band Lawrence live on stage. last year was fantastic. I think these shows should be great, too. I'm also performing as a part of Stand Up for Heroes November 10th at the David Gaffin-Hall in Lincoln Center.

Center for Heroes is an organization that's raised over $113 million to date to help veterans and military families, and I've done a lot of events for them over the years. I think they do an amazing job. It's a great lineup. It's Alex Adelman, Jim Gaffigan, Adina Menzel, Leah Michelle, Leslie Odom, Jr., Tom Papa, John Stewart, and myself, I always love these shows.

They're really memorable, great organization. By the way, thanks to everyone who signed up for Working Out Premium on Apple Podcasts. We have some great bonus stuff that we've come out with. I did an episode where I punched up listeners' jokes, which was super fun. And we're recording another one of those soon, so sign up and stay tuned for that. This is a great conversation with Jay Hope Stein. If you don't know her work, she's been published in The New York Times and The New Yorker and Poetry International and her own books,

a little astronaut, and we wrote the new one together. She reads some new poems today. We talk about giving and receiving creative feedback, particularly about poetry, which I don't really know how to give feedback on poetry because I'm not a poet. She explains that. She explains the difference between podcast, me and real me,

off the mic me, plus a phone call with our friend Pete Holmes that randomly occurs. Enjoy my conversation with the great J. Hope Stein. Sometimes around our apartment you'll say to me, I want you to be like you are with the guests on your podcast. That's true. So here we are. There was just like one day where I was listening to your podcast.

I'm a huge fan of all of your work here. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. I love the show. And I was listening to it and just the way you were with the guest. And I was like that day, like, I was getting kind of like a gruff side of you that was just very... Never heard of it. Mm-hmm.

And I was just like, oh, my gosh. And especially during the pandemic, because you were kind of down. But then you would, like, light up for the podcast. I wonder why I was down. You would just, like, light up. I wonder what it was. I can't put my finger on it. Anyway.

I don't know. I'm dying to get on here for the toad. The toad. Yeah. You know, it's funny. You do this thing. Mm-hmm. In our life life together, not on the podcast, where you'll be like, you'll joke about how people say to you, you're married to a comedian. He must make jokes all the time. And then you'll joke about how I never make jokes. I'm very serious. As my mom always has said, when people say to her, your son must make jokes all the time. She says, no, he's so serious.

Yeah, she's always like, Joe's the funny one. There's a funny one. Mike is very serious. It's true. You're ever very serious, man. But so now, when I make jokes in real life. You stop, too. I stop and I go, just so you know, that was a good, that's a pretty good joke.

Yeah. You're like, you're getting the good stuff. It was the good stuff. Because I'm sick of not getting credit for, like, solid jokes in life. My favorite thing is when you do physical comedy in the house. Like, when you just, like, do weird dances and, like, weird animal moves. Mm-hmm. What brings you to this podcast today?

Well, for weeks you were going, you're going to do the pod. You know, you're doing the pod in like two weeks, right? You know what? And so I'm very thankful to be here. I'm a huge fan, like I said. Uh-huh. I don't know why you brought me here because you must be sick to death of me. No.

In your real life? No. But the truth is, when you're away, I listen to the pod. because it calms me. Oh, that's sweet. I'm not trying to even be sweet. Okay. You don't have to say that.

But I'm just saying... You don't have to take away the sweetness of it on purpose. I love when you read the ads. It's like my favorite part. It makes me laugh so much. Some people hate the ads. That's why part of the reason we did premium is I get where you get no ads because people sometimes complain they go, I don't like the ads.

I wish you didn't do ads. I usually don't like ads on podcasts, but your ads, I find them joyful. Okay. So you love my personality in a podcast. You hate my personality in real life. I'm not saying that. I'm just saying like it's like the best parts of you without the challenges.

And I love the challenges. Let's talk through the challenges. I'm married. I married the challenges. You married the challenges. And the best parts are like little bursts and sparks like in my daily life. But like the podcast kind of, you know, consolidates them all into like 90 minutes or. 70 minutes or you remember when we got married and I talked to you about how I'm a nightmare

person to get married to this is a great time for you to do your joke about how you said you were never happy or something like that you have a new joke you're running with oh yeah I can do that joke because you did come to the cellar the other night and see some of the new jokes oh my I went to the cellar for the first time in 20 years or something and you came to the malaney Fred Armisen and Nick Kroll show in Portland Maine yes which you liked right I love that show I had the best time yeah Oh, and you know what we'll get to later because I did the bit that I've done on this podcast before, the plane crashing bit. Oh, do you read it on the podcast?

Yeah, I did it. I think I did it during the Jane Wickline, Leva Pierce, Duke's episode. But I'll read it today because there's two people who have requested a response of some kind. One was John Malini at that show. John Malini, okay, you were reading it. Okay, you're reading this piece, and I'm side stage with Malini and a couple other people. And the joke is us in a plane crash and us kind of having a dialogue as the plane is crashing. I'm the butt of the joke.

Not true. And it's a very long, extensive. The butt of the joke. Like, like, it rolls for like 20 minutes. It's all on the butt of the joke the entire time. It's like, and then dances, you know. And so I'm like laughing my ass off and Malini is like laughing. And then Malini's like, you should go on stage right now.

It's like, it's an arena full of like 10,000 people. It was 10,000 people. It actually would have been great if you walked on. That would have been hilarious. You would have had like a heart attack. You would have thought like something was wrong. I'd have a heart attack. For me to come on stage in the middle of a...

I'm so calm on stage. I don't care about... I'm looking at your producers now. When we do jokes and poems... When we do jokes and poems on stage, like when we're doing Joe's Pub, which, by the way, we're announcing that today. We're doing one in, I think, two weeks. It's on for Vibis.com.

Signed for the mailing list. Sign up for the... This is the text alerts is the new thing that people have to sign up for just because we it gets it doesn't go in people spam but anyway jokes and poems i'm calm as anything you literally will say anything and i'll just be like all right you'll be like i don't like standing here i'm like all right can i stand over there all right can i stand back there again all right that's different than coming on in the middle of your set on a malini show you literally wouldn't care in front of 10 000 people it's not even your own show i'm just like walking on stage it's a great example of how cool i am

during your last jokes and poems you asked to switch sides with me during the show, then you asked to switch sides again. And Mabel was asking, was there a reason? I think I was just getting situated in the room. It's that funny? I don't know. Don't you guys have to get situated? No.

So, okay, there was this weird kind of, like, clown mirror that was, like, projecting an image of me that was, like, all distorted from the back of the room. So then I was... You're saying there was a mirror in the back of the room that you were looking at of yourself? There's a mirror that was pointed out. I have not noticed this at all. Well, you were on the side with it. And it's like at the end because like there's this mirror, but it's like a fun house mirror, right?

I literally have no idea what you were talking about. And then it's like this distorted like picture like image of me. So then I was like, that's too distracting. Mirrors like that actually always make me look better. Because in real life, I am distorted. And then I see those and it's like, oh, he's looking good. Symmetrical as fuck. So I had the similar thing like real life

I'm just feel distorted And then I look and I'm like Oh shit I am distorted So then I went back to the others Oh wait we need to laugh longer at your joke I'm sorry Ah ha boo No I'm really am sorry

I stepped on your laughs What's hilarious said that Is that you never laugh in real life Ever at jokes I do too I laugh at things that are like surprises You laugh at physical comedy I laugh at surprises

Surprises physical comedy, but not jokes. But, like, it's a given you're going to be funny. Not true. The given. Not according to my mom. The given, like, is that there's always going to be humor in our conversation. So I'm just, like, we're rolling. We're rolling.

It's a momentum thing. Just like your shows, you know how you step on the audience's laughter? Yeah, sure. Until the grand finale, which is, like, a surprise. That's what I'm doing with you. Okay. Okay. So, anyway, so then I went back to the other side.

Okay. And, you know, I just sort of hunkered down there. It wasn't easy. Mm-hmm. The funny thing is with jokes and poems, it is totally unusual of a show. We'll do a little sell of jokes and poems right now. It's like, I do a joke, you do a poem that makes you think of that.

I do a joke that makes me think of that. We usually come up with the day of. I think we... We kind of both go through our notebook. It's material that we already have, but we... put it together the day of? It gets a little stressful, like, a few days before we realize we have no plan. And then every day we're like, we have no plan.

We should have a plan. We're like, yeah, we should have a plan. Yeah. But because we're always planning so many things, we have schedule meetings all the time about our life, it's just hard to find the creative, like, energy to plan until it's, like, right before, you know, and then it sort of falls into place, luckily. Completely. Because it's, you know why jokes and poems, I think, is good?

is this just doesn't exist. And actually it's an oddly decent marriage of art forms. Yeah, and I think everybody's like prepared in their own way, but nobody really knows how it's going to go until it goes. So there's an energy that's sort of like what are we about to say. Yeah, and also like nobody, everyone always says like, oh, I love poetry, but then they like don't buy poetry books. Like if you look at the poetry section in stores, you're like, oh, wow.

Yeah. Yeah. Tumbleweed. No, it's just, I mean, honestly, like, financially is one of the smallest subcategories in literature. It is. And, like, a lot of the poets are dead. And if you go to a bookstore. The best sellers are dead. Yeah.

Yeah. I shot them. So that my wife would be number one living poet. I killed all the other poets. Maybe I'm going to give you a long laugh on that one. Just like a rolling. Oh, it's Barbiglia, the poetry serial killer. He's killing every poet.

Every last one of them till his wife is number one poet in the world. Oh, my God. Ranked by all the poetry ranking websites. Ranker. On ranker. Amazon.com. Ranker.com. On Amazon.com.

Little astronaut. And it literally, number one book is because all the other poets are dead. but when you get dead you get more popular No I know but you're right There'd be like a living poet section I gotta get more popular when I'm dead Oh that was one of my questions When I when I die

How long before you get married again Don't don't I'm not answering that question And I'm like angry at you for asking it And I'm like angry about all of your references To your own death as well as ours in a plane crash We don't die in the plane crash story We live Yeah I know

I appreciate that but it was imminent because you're it was imminent but we make it out alive do you why don't you like me evoking my own death for comedy's sake because i've just been through too much shit in my life to like to like envision that i don't know isn't poetry and comedy just about love and loss it sure is we're here on fresh air mike berbiglia filling in for dave davies who's filling in for Terry Gross. It's getting deep here. What if I was the triple fill in on fresh air?

That'd be good. You should be. You're a great interviewer. What are your favorite episodes? Oh, boy, I knew you were going to put me on the spot. No, no, I can just take that out. No, today I was walking. I just thought you might know.

No, today I was walking back from dropping you in off at school and I was like, mind was completely blank and I was like, I think Mike might ask me what my favorite episodes are and I couldn't think of one single episode. And now I'm like having... We're going to have that be the trailer. No. I'm such a huge fan, though. I really am.

This is really hard for me. Can you give me a list and I'll point to them? When I die, how long before you marry someone else? Stop it. I hate that question so much. It's the worst question. I'm never going to get married again. Boom.

This interview is over. We don't have to worry because we're never going to die. Oh, yeah, we have that never going to die card that they give you when you go to Staples enough times. We're the never going to die generation. Yeah. You know how when you go to Chipotle 10 days in a row, they give you that card that says never going to die? That's what we have. We have that.

They punch it with a little picture of a burrito. We have an endless supply burritos. I don't know if Mabel's like that. laughing in earnest or laughing like what the fuck are we going to do with this stuff laughing people's like snap snap snips

can I nominate something that does make Jen laugh really hard for own typos I think me laugh the most oh yeah let's talk about your let's talk about your own typos that you make I find typos to be so spiritual okay yeah yeah

because it's like you're not trying to say the thing that you said it's like Wait, do you want to read the poem that has the typo reference that you didn't joke some poems? Yeah. And I just want to say, like, there's Freudian and then there's like spiritual. Like, there's another level, you know, which is like you've said something that you can't even believe you said. So I keep a document of my typos because I think what you're saying, like, about how I don't laugh sometimes. I don't laugh like at sort of the rolling daily jokes of life.

But when it's a typo, I laugh because it's a surprise. And I'm just really surprised by it. And I didn't plan it. And so when it comes out of my mouth, I'm just like, or my writing, I'm just, like, excited. So I don't know if I'm going to even say anything about this poem, other than there's a typo in it. Okay. Okay. Holy, holy.

Bless the word juggernaut. It is silly. Bless pincer and rhododendrums. They are silly too. Flowers are clownish and silly. They are perennial cousins come for a visit after a long winter. They summer with us and make our noses smile. Bless the nose.

It is silly on the face like that. Bless the hair that points to every coordinate of sky. Bless the butt. It's very silly in all its forms and activities. Bless each silly thing that walks the planet and falls, for falling is holy. Bless each misspoken and misspelled word. It is a kind of falling.

Bless the typo. They are truths being whispered to us by the miracle of a botched letter. I am sad to kiss your party. I mean, I am sad to moss your party. The misspoken is silly and requires a human to make it so. Holy are the children whose birthright it is to be silly. Holy is the clown who falls backwards. Holy, holy, silly.

For silly equals holy. Holy is the clown who falls. when the clown falls we see we are the fallen and when the clown gets back up we see we have risen let the clown slip backwards and let laughter ring I love that I always say when we do jokes the poems I'm like the poems are so much better than the jokes not true but thank you um but that is like a typo that I did write I wrote to someone that I'm sad to kiss your party and then I corrected it by saying I'm sad to moster party. I was like, I mean I'm sad to moster party.

And I was like, I can't, I just like go, I can't write a normal text message. And it just makes me happy because so much of poetry is like where words take you and that kind of thing and sort of trusting the words instead of your thoughts. What occurs to me when I hear that is like that I think poetry and comedy are super very similar. We talk about this all the time. Yeah. In a certain way, poetry is comedy, comedy, comedy is poetry. They're just, they're similar. They're both brevity.

Yeah. Their brevity is the soul of wit art forms. And then, but I actually think what occurred to me for the first time I was listening to that is the difference is if I was going to do that as a comedy piece, I would present it as though I was extemporaneously coming up with it. You say more about that? Like I'm just talking. Like stand-up comedy is often just. like the illusion of I'm just talking. Yeah.

I'm just saying things off the top of my head. Right. Like, I'm not, this isn't the thought through idea. But with poetry, I feel like it's understood like, no, no, no, this is like the hundredth draft of this. These are the words I chose for you. And I think there is a style of poetry and I sometimes try to ride the line a little bit where you don't want it to feel too into like a land of like over-revised

and where you want it to feel like your mind is coming. up with it in the moment like you want to kind of capture the mind a little bit yeah so there is versions there are certain poetry there is poetry that I really enjoy like that and there is times where I try to emulate like how is my mind working in a really like raw way you want to try to keep some wrongness sometimes I mean I try to sometimes this one's probably a little bit more of a polished piece because it's um a character in a book I'm writing it says this so yeah it's like her lines her poem So this is a poem that you read at Jokes and Poems last time called The Grownups and the Growing.

I was wondering if you would read that today. Oh, yeah. Thanks. The grownups and the growing. On my planet, there's two kinds of people. The grownups and the growing. But there's something wrong with our grownups. It's a big problem because grownups are in charge of making all the important decisions on my planet. And they tend to make bad decisions.

Why? It's in their name. They're grown up. All the growing is done. It's not entirely their fault. They are under the spell of Pocket Witch. A witch who persuades grownups, they know all there is to know. They walk the planet as if they have nothing new to learn.

Worse, Pocket Witch has pickpocketed from grownups the imagination required to solve problems. All of this is evident in grown-ups' unforgivable appearance. They are larger in size, taller, but their posture is curled inward. Their noses point at their naples. They dress in drab colors like herringbone. and a crew. Ever have a grown-up tell you what to do and you know what's wrong and you still have to listen just because they're grown up? That's what it's like on my planet all the time. Grown-ups grown down on the growing. But do not despair. If you are among the growing and like me

are scared to become a grown-up one day because all children become grown-ups eventually on my planet, hold on. If you are among the growing, but feel yourself in little ways less and less yourself each day. If your body is starting to feel differently in t-shirts, if hair seemingly grow overnight in new places, if each night with your head under the sheets, you hear the calling of the pocket witch and are worried she is coming for you next. Do not despair. I have a plan. But if you're a typical grown-up who happened to stumble on this book mistakenly, I ask that you have mercy, and please not report me to Pocket Witch, who makes grown-ups forget they were once children. If you are a typical grown-up who has ceased learning, please try to remember yourself

as a child and then get out of the way. Grown-ups, frown-ups, headstone thrown-ups. This book is for the growing. Oh, that's so beautiful. That's the beginning of my new book. That's one of my favorites. Thank you. It almost makes me think, we talk about this sometimes, and if anyone's listening, has ideas for this. Email us, working at a pot of Gmail. When I see that poem, I'm like, that is a book. Like, in other words, like, that four pages that you just read, I'm like, that should be its own little book that, like, sits on a table where you pick it up and, like, that's an experience. To me, I'm like, like, I feel like the lit industry, it's not built for art. Like, it's not, like, the formations of it are like, well, every book has to be it.

least 1799 in order to pay for blah blah blah and it's like yeah it's almost like I wish that there was like an artist and I'm sure there probably is and someone should email us I'd be really curious it's like like that that should be its own little art piece like that's so beautiful thank you that's a really good idea the other thing that I had for grownups and the growing is I feel like it appeals to young people in the in the sense of like hey these grownups are terrible, et cetera, like some of these grownups are terrible. But then it also has this thing of grownups, hey grownups, don't forget to grow. Yeah, I think so. So it's, it kind of has like these two, it has a dual message to it, which I love. First of all, it was actually written for

kids. Right. It's great for kids. But I want it to like work on both levels. Like my model is like the little prince, which is the ultimate model for like a kid's book that works for grownups. in sort of a metaphysical way. Whatever happened to that rag? It's hard to find. I wanted you to read this poem that I love that is you wrote for a movie. I won't say what movie because... No, don't say it.

Yeah. Because it hasn't come out yet? Yeah, and also I don't think it matters that much. Okay. But I was going to say, what I wanted to say about it is that it's a movie and I was asked to write a poem for it for coming from the perspective of one of the characters so it was interesting because i've never done i haven't done much of this but it was like someone else wrote a movie and they wrote a character and then i was thinking like what would happen if that character

came across this poem by kim adenizio and was then inspired to write this poem oh interesting yeah so kim adenizio's poem which is called to a woman crying uncontrollably in the next stall it's a beautiful poem um you guys should look that up that poem is incredible and um that made me start a poem saying that starts with the first line saying to the woman sitting at the top of the staircase so that's sort of the energy that I was like bringing to it for this character do you want to read it sure it's called eavesdropping to the woman sitting at the top of the staircase listening to the sound of her teenage daughter talking with friends. It's not considered spying exactly, just listening, the way one would open a window and

listen to birds. It's not creepy, I promise you. Just don't tip-tone down another step to hear her more completely. You can only catch glimpses of it now. Like when you meet her somewhere, and there's a moment you see her, and she doesn't realize you're there? Listen. Do you overthink random things to the point of stupidity, like what she promised you when she was three? When I grow up, Mama, I want to live next door to you, and every day I will buy you groceries. And do you find yourself half-wishing you could hold her to it now that the time is near? Does it ever feel like you've marathoned through the ears as her sibling, best friend, teacher, mother, re-learning chemistry, up for nights, terrified with fever, hers, all depending on the day? Like the summer, she was on crutches with a broken foot, and her best friend dumped her because she couldn't go to gymnastics camp.

you hugged her and said something like I wish we were the same age so we could be best friends seven year olds can be such assholes have you ever found yourself engaged in tasks of the absurdity such as laminating a school schedule then hole punching it and affixing it to a retractable keychain

then attaching it to the outside of a backpack purely for the sake of your child's ease listen you deserve to hear this the way you hear a song you love and say turn it up and let it wash over you completely with your hands in the air this is that song

because you sang her into this world and you can't hold a song you can only listen so beautiful it used to have another ending I think you told me to end on that line last time when you read it right before we did jokes and poems

I think I was like you can't hold a song you can only listen and then I think I had the line you did a great job I told you to end with I'm Jay Hope Stein I'm out of here Follow me at J. Hope Stein on Instagram. That's what I told you to end it with.

Yeah. That is right. Great suggestion. That's how I end all my poems now. Follow me at Jayhope Stein on Instagram. Thank you very much. It's like a really beautiful ending, right? Follow me on Instagram.

Uh-huh. I love that poem so much. I have to hold myself back from crying because I'm like, I just, I would look so ridiculous in tears. Well, that's the second time I read it. You look beautiful in tears. It's not the second time you read it. No, it's the second time I read it in person.

You read it jokes and poems. You read it to Mabel and me once. No, no. I recorded it and I let you guys listen to it. Oh. Different. So the first time I actually read it in front of people was jokes and poems. And I was like, whoa, this is making me feel something.

And I didn't expect that because, like I said, I wrote it for a character. She's nothing like me. Yeah, I noticed that. that there's no commonalities there's no parallels to life sometime in art you have to you know go deep inside right imagine what it would be like to have a seven-year-old child to feel that kind of heartbreak it's funny it's funny that you were like you gave me a note on this because I'm like I actually don't remember that because I don't think of myself as ever giving you notes. I was curious, like, when you get notes from people or feedback, what kind of

feedback do you typically want? Because on this podcast, I always talk about comedy feedback is really basic. It's like, is that funny to me? Do I relate to that? Do you want to hear more about it? It's like, kind of simple. I think the thing that you usually do is like, this is what I'm getting from this. and I mean, I think it's always helpful for me to hear people I respect, artists I respect, say, like, if it was mine, this is what I would do with it. That doesn't make me feel weird even if it's like something I would never do with it because to me that's just like a lot of good information. So I love that kind of thing, like how other people's brains work when sort of interacting with your own, your words. And then they're like, well, if it was mine, I would just do this whole other thing with it. And it's like, oh, that's very interesting. What is not helpful poetry feedback? I think all feedback is interesting if you want feedback. I definitely think that there are people who want to make something different. They want you to make something different than you're making.

That kind of feedback is just not that helpful because you're like, well, you should go make that thing. You should do that. You should make that thing. That sounds great for you. Yeah, yeah. Love that for you. That's not my voice. My voice is sort of doing a different thing.

Same with comedy. It's the most painful thing when people project onto you what their artistic voice is. You're like, yeah, dude, that's not what this is. Totally. And so I guess that when you get a comment like that, you want to make sure it's not from someone that is very connected to who you think should be like getting what you're doing. So meaning like if it depends who that comes from, if it comes from a person, you're like, well, that doesn't, that person is. sort of like never going to be liking anything that I'm going to be doing versus somebody who really knows your work and who really gets you and has a, I don't know, it sort of has a comment

that you don't want to hear. Yeah. I think it's a fine line, you know, but I think it depends who it's coming from sometimes. What's the hardest we've ever laughed together that you remember? I would say like it's usually when we leave a party and we're like holding in, where were we the other day we're like if we're at a movie and we're like holding in or show or party where we're like have to hold in and we'll just be like we're going to we have a lot to talk about that's all we can say there's going to be a lot to talk about and then we like hit the street and we have to walk like four blocks away from wherever we came from that's a huge a huge part of our life is estimating how far away people are from when it's safe to trash them yeah we're really good at it

Ira Glass isn't. Don't go anywhere with Ira Glass. I don't even know if we can keep this in. Okay. Take it out. He's challenged. He, and it's not a thing he's trashing people per se, but he's very candid. He doesn't believe in kind of any discretion, seemingly.

And so we'll walk out of a play, and he'll just say how he felt about the play, but, like, loudly with the people who were at the play. It's his gift. And it's crazy. I call it Ira's gift. because he would say it to our faces if we weren't good at something. He would be like, that was really bad. Oh, and he has.

And he has. Yeah, or at least with me, yeah, certainly. Oh, he wants us to do, he came to jokes and poems, and he wants us to do a thing where you write a response to a comedy bit that I have. Right. So it's the plane crashing thing, which we talked about earlier. Right. And, like, we talked about how, like, I was...

Hold on. Can I do the thing just so people know what... Is I'm referencing? You can do the thing, and I'm just going to sit here and take it. Okay, perfect. I'm not going to say anything. I'm not going to roll my eyes. Perfect. Keep the camera on him.

This is a piece that wrote called me and my wife on a plane that's crashing. I think my greatest fear is being in a plane crash with my wife, not because I don't love her, but because somehow I feel like I would be blamed for the plane crash. We find it we're going down, and she'd be like, I told you we shouldn't have gone on this flight. I'd be like, first of all, you didn't say that. Second of all, we're visiting your parents in Florida. I didn't want to do either of those things. I didn't want to go on this flight.

I didn't want to visit your parents in Florida. She'd be like, never mind, doesn't matter. I'd be like, clearly it matters. It's obviously on your mind. She'd be like, I always say, we're going to crash when we fly. And I'd be like, a majority of the time you were wrong. And this time, you're right, we're going to crash. And I just think we should spend the final 10 minutes of our lives,

enjoying each other's company and feeling gratitude for having found each other in this lifetime. She'd say that's what I was trying to do. I'd be like nothing you said was even remotely similar to what I just said. And the pilot would come on the loudspeaker and be like, it looks like we're going to be able to make an emergency crash landing at a local field. And I'd be like, that's good, right? Like, do you think we can order an Uber to a field? She'd be like, I don't use Uber anymore after I read that article in the Times about how they mistreat their employees. I'd be like, right. But if we're stuck in a field, I feel like we should make a one-time exception. She'd be like, I'd prefer if we try Lyft first. If Lyft isn't available,

we can use Uber. In conclusion, my greatest fear is being in a plane crash with my wife, knowing I'm right, being told I'm wrong, and then living. It's a masterpiece. It's a shortened version of it. Yeah, it's a shortened. It goes on and on and on. Hold my hands here. I just want to say that, like, listening to it again, I've heard this many, many times over the years. Love it. It's a beautiful piece. Wouldn't change a word of it. To me, at this moment, it reflects more about what your internal monologue is in life, and it's like a cry for help, then it has to do with me.

Right, sure, yeah, of course. I think the audience knows all this. I think the audience knows. Maybe. And so I think the audience thinks it's a dynamic, but I'm like, the dynamic is in your brain. It's not like actually, you're not buying it. Brain dynamic. No, no, I think you're right.

And I think, like, that's the thing that Ira really appeals to Ira about it. He loves the piece, and actually he thinks his working it out of this piece, his theory is multifold. One, he thinks you should write a poetry response to it. Yes. Second of all, he thinks that I should write for a show, a series of hypotheticals like this, like such that it builds out a world of kind of hypotheticals in a marriage. That's, like, his goal for it. Yeah, I'm interested by it, but I'm also like, I feel like I have a lot of other stuff to write for this next show.

I think that is an interesting sort of assignment for you. At least just write one more and see what it feels like. No, but I think the thing you're saying of like it's in your brain or whatever, it's like, yeah. Yeah, I mean, it's also, like, I think the audience knows when someone goes on this rant that's completely fictional and absurd, they're like, a lot going on with this guy. right so like so ira that's not a big shocker i don't think they're laughing at you in the story well after irea saw the show um the jokes and poem show where you read that while i was on stage

because i think it was the first time you read that while i was like standing next to you and it's a longer version of that so i'm just standing there on stage like whoa like it's just like coming at me it was funny but it was like intense right i don't know i thought it was So I heard I was like, I want you to go like line by line, like, you know, responding to each thing. And I was like, but my, I was like maybe I like that idea. Like it made me feel like, oh yeah, like I can punch back kind of thing. But then I was like thinking about it and I'm just not, my brain just isn't going in that direction. So it's been, I've had to take a moment on the beat to sort of figure out like what my response would be.

And then this morning I was thinking about it, like, wrote something down. Okay. So what I was thinking is what I want to respond with, instead of going, like, tit for tat or anything like that, is like, I want to, like, disarm you. Like, I want to go, like, so big and, like, with, like, a response that's, like, so emotionally disarming that so deeply understands you and that it's, like, complete disarming. It's not like, I'm going to punch you, you know. I think that's a good idea. Yeah, so that's all I have so far. I mean, that's my instinct is just, like, something that's, like, goes the opposite way.

It goes the opposite way as, like, a punching match. That's something that's, like, more, like. That's a version of it for sure. Yeah. I think another version of it is, and of course, you have that already because you have hundreds of love poems you've written about me. I sure have. I do. And also, like, the whole book, the new one.

And, like, the new one book and also a little astronaut, I might as well, I mean, I wrote this down, but, like, most of the poems that I wrote in there, they start with when I, in my early versions of them, you have this joke about me where you say, blah, blah, blah, but actually blah, blah, blah, you know, so this is my side of the story of all these things. Right, right. Actually, you never did the dishes kind of thing. Yeah, actually this and actually that. And so I do have a lot of my side of the story kind of things that we've done. And that's what I think the new one is, shows that. It sort of highlights that. The funny thing about that is sometimes people, like a reviewer or whatever, would be like, he's the asshole because he doesn't do the dish out.

I'm like, motherfucker, I read that to you. Like, I don't agree with it, but I'm not going to spend 10 minutes, like, shooting it down. Like, what are you talking about? Yeah. Well, that's why we don't really read reviews anymore. I still do, yeah. Okay. So.

But so, yeah. So I feel like I've done that a lot. And so now, like, I'm a much more mature artist in person. Oh, I totally agree. And I'm, like, I'm going high instead of going low. Right. Like the Obamas. The Obamas.

And I want to go high. I want to just, like, make it, like, so. Although even the Obamas now are like, oh, fuck that phrase. Fuck that motto we had. I do think maybe fuck the motto they had. But in our marriage, I, like, use it as a model. And so I'm going to go. go high with it. I think I want to go really high. I want to write something where you're just

going to be like crying. I already had it with eavesdropping. There you go. I already had it with the growing and the groan. Yeah, but this is where we're going to be like a response to this thing you wrote, but you're at the center of it. You're going to do a poetry battle. It's going to be a poetry battle. Yeah, and like you're expecting to get punched and I'm just going to make you cry without touching you. That's nice. That's nice. Walk away. Knock me over with a feather. Yeah. I think that's one way to do it, for sure.

But since we're on working it out, I'll throw out another version of it. Love to hear it. I think there's a version where you could do mine except for each line you divert into yours. Like I think my greatest fear in my life is being in a plane crash with my husband because somehow I feel like he'd write about it and talk. about it on stage, you know what I mean? Like everything, you take every line and you just spin it on like, on like, he, everything he does is to bring attention to himself. Right. You know what I mean? Yeah. Like, which I think could be fun too. Yeah, that's interesting. I mean, I think one of my immediate reactions when I had said it was like, I was like thinking like, like the plane crash thing is the

analogy for just like you every day which is what I'm saying like your inner monologue is like you approach every situation as though we're in the middle of like like everything's a plain crap I don't know everything's like that's so funny that's how I describe you what you did in detail and so but I'm talking about like socks on the floor it's like that's another one I could do Ira would love that so yeah I mean I still I still want to go high I don't want to go low. But yeah, I can, I can try that. I can do that as a writing exercise and see where it takes me. I'm open to that. The other thing I did recently as a bit, and you had a lot, you really helped me with it, which is I did as a bit this idea of, like, I was married 17,

I got married 17 years ago, but the most seminal thing in my life that occurred was I fell in love 20 years ago. Because falling in love is a shocking experience because your whole life, you have all these hopes and dreams and plans for what you want to do and then you fall in love and you're like or whatever you want to do and this is what you help me with I go my wife came to see me perform and she saw me tell that joke and she said that's what you think happened she goes we spent the last 20 years doing exactly what you want to do and therein lies the complexity of of being married is you have two people often intending to do what the other person wants to do at the same time. So it's a lot of like whatever you want to do, whatever you want to do, whatever you want to do, whatever you want to do, whatever you want to do. And then it's 20 years later. And no one's done what anyone wants to do. And then I say to the audience, if this sounds familiar, I got to tell you, you got to start doing what somebody wants to do because you're running out of time.

I love that piece. It's a nice piece. I love you. I love you, too. But I will say that if you did a little survey of the people in your life, I think you would find the majority is what you want to do. Versus what you want to do? Meaning like if you just survey of all the people in your life and you said,

when we hang out, do you think we're doing what? what I want to do or what you want to do. Here's what's funny. With my friends, I think more often than not it is what I want to do because I have so little free time with friends. When it's you, I feel like it's 80, 20, what you want to do. That is so beautiful that you see things that way. Okay, we created a slow round for you called The Introverted Slow Round

Because you're the only person on the show who's ever complained about the slow round I'm not complaining about the Slow Round I'm like mystified by the Slow Round The Slow Round, everyone has an answer to these questions These like big life, like readily available in their brains My brain is not functioning at that level. This is the introverted slow round. If this is a hit, every introvert who comes on is going to take this from now on.

As an introvert, did you ever have an inauthentic extrovert era? Yes. So I wasn't always an introvert. I was probably have been considered an extrovert for most of high school, college. Yeah, I was wild. I was like, I mean, imagine me. Was it inauthentic? Yes.

Okay. Imagine me like New Year's Eve on a train leaving Penn Station, like standing up and like leading like the train in like a song and dance and like, yeah, like I had a whole. What song? What dance? I've been trying to tell you this. I used to be an extrovert in like my high school and college friends would be confused by the introvert thing. I think, I mean, not the people who really, really, really knew me. They knew that there was, like, another side to me, but I was working on a strong extroverted party girl kind of vibe for a while.

This is more of the introvert slow round. Who is your favorite and least favorite type of person to talk to at a party? I like the quiet people, and I like the people who don't need to talk so much, who just sort of... Just enjoy each other's essence. Low expectation people. there are people who come up to me sometimes and tell me I'm so brave because I let you tell jokes

I don't like that so much but I mean I think they mean well so it's like I don't want to be mean but I don't know why that is weird to me because I'm just like I'm not brave and also we always talk about everything so I don't see it that way

Well, there's no surprises. Mm-mm. I don't know. But I don't know. I'm not that judgmental of people. I think there is a misconception that if you're being introverted, you're being judgmental of other people. But I think more often than not, like, at least for me being an introvert, I'm like more judgmental of myself. That's where my head's at, not judging other people.

What are some tips and tricks for introverts who are married to extroverts? I don't know. I can't speak to for all introverts, but I could speak to like my hesitation. is not it's like it's not a put on or it's not like oh i'm so introverted so you know i'm not going to do this it's just like it's like much deeper right um it's a bit like a deeper in incapability that we're struggling with so patience this is maybe you could help me with this joke which is um oh yay my way for this poem about our daughter's eyes and how they look like little blueberries, except she has my eyes. And I'm like, where's my poem? These are the first

generation blueberry eyes. Those are blueberry eyes 2.0. I feel like it could be a quick poem like the prostrate shrubs of my husband's thighs make way for his breathtaking blueberry eyes. Anyway, that's my poem about my own eyes. I'm pitching to my wife that maybe she could write about me. But I'll let her take it from here. I love that joke. That's so funny. And I'm going to write you. I got to write that down for jokes and poems because I forgot that I had written that. I think that that's good for jokes and poems, circling it.

I'm going to write you a poem someday that's called First Generation Blueberry Ice. I want to write something about how you've recently told me that you want me to take phone calls in the room that you're in. Okay. Here's the thing. Like when you live with someone for like what, 20 years or something? So you have all these like patterns and you have like these flow. And part of our flow, whether you realized it or not, was that you're always on the phone. Uh-huh.

And you'd be like, am I bothering you? And I would be like, no, it sounds like the ocean to me. Mm-hmm. True. Sweet. It is something you say it's really sweet. And then all of a sudden you're like, oh, it's Pete Holmes. I'm going to go take that somewhere.

I'm like, why? I haven't talked to Pete Holmes in like two years. Like, usually like we're all together. It sounds like secretly you want to be an extrovert. You want extrovert privileges. Yeah. You want to be in on a phone call, but you don't want to make the phone call. That's right.

Like I want to chime in. Yeah, you want to chime in. You want to be a sidecar on a motorcycle. I miss Pete Holmes. Sure. Who doesn't? But also, it's just, it was part of the rhythms. I mean, Pete, I'm sure Pete's probably like, where's Jen?

Does Mike even live with Jen anymore? Pete's totally going to get this. Pete's going to get it all. Peter. We're on the air. We're on the podcast with Jenny. Hi, Pete. Hi.

Pete, we were talking about our marriage. It's our anniversary today. So how perfect? How many years for you and Val? Yay. Eight years. Sorry, Jen. I didn't mean to interrupt.

No, happy anniversary. No, it's about you, Pete. We called you. If we're going to call you and then recall you. Congratulate you on your anniversary we didn't know about. That's why we're calling. That's why we're calling. I want to talk to you about our marriage.

It's like someone saying, I want to talk to you about my birthday. and I have to say, hey, it's my birthday. But that's not too far afield. It matters to us. Okay, so should we tell him what we were just assessing? Okay. Do you want Val in on this? She's right here.

Val can absolutely be on this. Hey, Val. Hi, guys. Hey, happy anniversary. Thank you. I want to say it's eight years of marriage, but 13 years together. Don't you feel like you have to stay the full? Yeah, we do it.

We're 20 together, not to be competitive. Yeah, it's like, 17 married, yeah. Wow. So we're... 20 years ago, I was 16, so... That's a great time to get married. So we're on our podcast right now. Talking about our marriage...

Wait. Okay, Jen wants to tell the story. Okay. So most of... You know how you live with someone and you have, like, patterns and, like, the flow of energy and everything? And Mike is someone who's, like, always on the... was always on the phone in our relationship, like, he'd be on the phone with Pete Holmes, and I would be like, hey, Petty, what's up, Pete?

And I would get, like, you know, and he would, Mike would always just be like, am I bothering you? And I'd be like, no, when you're on the phone, it sounds like the ocean to me. Like, I love it. Okay. And then all of a sudden he's like been like, oh, it's Pete. I'm just going to go take this upstairs or whatever. And I'm just like, what?

Why? I want you. I haven't talked to Pete in like two years, right, Pete? Yeah, that's true. Right? There was more of Mike's my dad, and you're my mom and you pick up the extension. And I'm calling from college. Yes.

And I love that. I miss it. Yeah, that's right. I remember there being a lot. It was like a regular part of our day where Pete would be like, I was talking to Mike and Jenny. And I was like, what? You guys are just all on the phone? Yeah.

So cute. Like you know just how Carl Reiner would shoot it? So, yeah, that was a part of our flow, and then all of a sudden it wasn't. And that's what we're talking about here on the podcast today. I think my theory is that Mike is protecting you. Yes, 100%. 100%. I think you're...

It is protection. It is protection. I know, but I don't want the protection. Let's take that... Thank you, Jen. And let's take that a front off the table and say that what's really happening is in a world of two dads, of daughters, married to women, high five. I think Mike and I, I never call him Mike, Mikey and I crave a little bit of bro time.

Okay. I don't think there's anything wrong with it. I think, in fact, that's why I'm offering it. Massachusetts bro time. I think you would understand. That's why it's not even like an avoidance of talking shit. We don't talk about our lives. Mike has, like, melanomas, and he's got some sort of up-the-dick procedure coming up.

This is how neither of these things are true. This is insane. That's my point. You've really, this train has gone off the tracks. I'm just assuming you look like one of those transparent pieces of paper that you put on an overhead projector that, like, a sleepy dad writes equations on. Like, that's how you appear physically. So I'm assuming you have a lot, like, you're the capital.

around the NyQuil tablet? You mean in the sense of how much information I'm conveying, right? No, no, no, I mean you're physical. Like, if I was describing you to the police. Okay, Petey, we got to go. Val, Petey. Happy anniversary. Happy anniversary, y'all.

Love you. Love you guys. Bye-bye. Bye. Well, that resolves that. Sure does. Old blueberry eyes fixed it up. We're going to go for working out for cause.

What is a nonprofit that you like to contribute to? And it's us contributing anyway whenever we do this. So it's like where should we contribute? I would like to contribute to the Children's Hospital in Los Angeles where the Kimmel's do a lot of work. I think that's a great idea. We will contribute to Children's Hospital, Los Angeles, Jimmy Kimmel and Molly McNerney have done

amazing fundraising work for that organization. It's an unbelievable children's hospital. It's completely miraculous and amazing. And Jennifer Hopstein, aka J. Hopestein, The Love of My Life. The original Blueberry Eyes Point, 1.0. Thank you for being here. live here.

That's going to do it for another episode of Working It Out. You can follow Jenny on Instagram at Jay Hope Stein. Pick up her book, Little Astronaut at your local bookstore. Makes a great gift for the holiday season. Check out Burbigs.com to sign up for the mailing list and to be the first to know about my upcoming shows. Our producers of Working It Out are myself along with Peter Salomon, Joseph Verbigley, and Mabel Lewis, and Gary Simons.

Mix by Shib Sarin, supervising engineer, Kate Balinski. Special thanks to Jack Antonov and bleachers for their music. They just came out with an amazing album of their concert at Madison Square Garden, which I was at. It was so good. Special thanks, of course, as always, to my wife, the poet J. Hope Stein, and our daughter, Una, who built the original radio fort made of pillows. Thanks most of all to you who are listening. If you enjoy this show, please rate us and review us on Apple Podcast.

It really helps out. We've created almost 200 episodes, all free. No paywall. Tell your friends. Tell your enemies. Let's say you're about to die in a plane crash. You're with your wife. You go, well, we could kind of argue about this plane crash and how it's going to go.

Or maybe we could take our earbuds and we could put one of my ears in one of your ears. And we could listen to an episode of a beautiful podcast where creative folks talk about jokes and other acts of creation. And we're still going to die, but we'll enjoy these few minutes together. Thanks, everybody. We're working it out. We'll see you next time.