Mike Birbiglia's Working It Out - 197. Natalie Palamides: Wisdom from a Modern Clown

Episode Date: December 22, 2025

Natalie Palamides is a writer and performer best known for her avant-garde comedy shows Laid, Nate, and WEER. She’s eaten raw eggs on stage, fondled audience members (with their consent), and played both halves of a feuding couple in a way that has to be seen to be believed. Mike and Natalie discuss how Natalie’s formal training in clowning informs her creative process, and they break down the philosophical differences between birthday clowns and theater clowns. Plus, Natalie explains the times that literally wresting with audience members nearly went wrong.Please consider donating to the Elysian.Get tickets for Natalie's show WEER in London here. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

It's almost like you're your own stunt person. Yeah. So when you go down, is it hurt? Or are you in such impeccable shape? Is your core in such perfect shape that it doesn't hurt? You know, I do have a pretty strong core. Right now I'm kind of rocking a six-pack. Oh, wow.

I'm not striving for this. Wow. It just happens to me. By accident, you have a six-pack. Yeah. By accident. I know. What a terrible thing to say. For me, by accident, I've never had a six-pack.

It's totally by accident. Wow. That I haven't had one. Oh, my gosh. But if I had one, it would be also by accident. Yeah, well, that's clown for you. That is the voice of the great Natalie Palamedes. I'm so excited to have Natalie on.

I have seen her live shows at this point three or four times. through the years at Edinburgh Fringe Festival at the Cherry Lane Theater with a show called Weir, W-E-E-E-R, that is going from the Cherry Lane Theater to London. If you're listening to this and you're in London, absolutely see this show. It is a must-see show. She has multiple one-person shows, including Laid, Nate, and Weir. Nate actually is a Netflix special that you can see now, produced by Amy Poehler. If you haven't seen Nate, it's basically Natalie playing this guy as a character who's really absurd.

He has a mustache. He rides in a little mini motorcycle. And it's like a monologue. Most of the shows a monologue from the perspective of this guy. And it's an outrageous character, but it has a lot of surprises and twists and turns. I think you'll love it. I think it's absolutely fascinating and very funny. Natalie is an incredible comedian, writer, performer clown.

Maybe not in the way that you use the word clown, but like a performance art clown, not a birthday clown. We talk about that today on the show. The differences between that. But she's like an extraordinarily gifted physical performer, writer, just innovator. By the way, thanks to everyone who's signed up for the text message alerts. As you know, I've had the email list for many, many years. And some of them go to people spam.

So we created a text message, a mailing list. And we're going to use them specifically in a few cities where I'm just going to do small club dates with new material. Philadelphia, Palm Beach, Madison, Buffalo, Raleigh, Los Angeles, New York City, and Nashville. If you want to be on that super secret text message list, text the phone number 917-444-7150, text the word. Burbigs, B-I-R-B-I-G-S, and you will be the first person to know about those shows before they sell out. I will also be appearing on Broadway, January 13 through 18, in a show that was written by Simon Rich, called All-Out. I will be performing alongside Cessly Strong, Wayne Brady, and others. Simon Rich, who's a writer from SNL and the New Yorker in all different places, he wrote this show called All In last year.

It was fantastic. Malaney was in it, and Fred Armisen, Kroll, all these great people. Now this is the follow-up. It's called All-Out. I'm thrilled to be a part of it. It's very funny. You can get tickets at All-OutBroadway.com. Also, if you want to get the podcast with no ads, if the ads drive you crazy,

sign up for working it out premium on Apple Podcasts. And you'll also get these additional bonus episodes we're doing, like me and Pete Holmes, working out listeners' jokes. I'm so chuffed you're joining me for my conversation with Natalie Palamedes today. We talk about the art of clowning. We talk about the differences between a traditional birthday clown

and the concept of a clown in a more theatrical sense. I loved talking to her today. This is unlike any episode we have ever had on this show. I promise. Enjoying my conversation with the great Natalie Palomides.

I'm going to attempt to contextualize you to our listeners today. Thank you. Natalie Palamedes, because I just think you're one of the most extraordinary performers I've ever seen. That means a lot coming from you, Mike. I appreciate it. I have to explain this to people because it's so hard to explain what is you do, which is good. Yeah, yeah. It's good to be hard to explain.

I think so. Yeah, then you've got to go to the show, right? Have to go to the show. I've been to three of them. I went to Nate, which is now a Netflix special. That was produced by Amy Poehler, and it's a beautiful show that I saw live. We'll talk more about that later. And then I saw a show that you did called Laid. Yeah, that's my first show. Ooh, incredible. Thank you. And then I saw the recent show at the Cherry Lane called Weir, which, again, unbelievable. Thanks, Mike.

These are all of a movement in comedy, which is people call clowning. Yeah. Can you explain to people listening to the show what it is? Why it's so popular and what your shows are roughly, what the rough intent of them is? Yes, okay. So I think the simplest way to explain clowning is to just have,

have fun being an idiot, being the stupidest version of yourself, and to express that mostly through using your body as the canvas or as the medium. So it's mostly like physical comedy. Like I think good reference points for clowns in media are like Lucille Ball, Steve Martin, Carol Burnett, Molly Shannon. Like her running into all the chairs doing Mary Catherine Gallagher. That's a clown bit. I think there is, you know, an attraction to clowning in the scene.

And in L.A. in particular, it's a really popular sport, I guess. I think because it's just, you know, a different way to improvise without being so heavy verbally. heavy on the mental games like you can just uh you don't have to be super clever maybe it's like a little bit of freedom from being clever yeah but it's a mistake to say that because a lot of the time you do have to be clever you're supposed to be an idiot and be like the stupidest version of yourself but clowning class is like one of the hardest things you'll ever do and you're like I suck at clown class. I can't get any laughs in clown because once you're trying, you're failing.

But the point is to fail. So like if your friend is like a really fun clown bit, you'll say like that it was so stupid or like that was the stupidest thing I've ever seen. That's great. It's a high compliment. Yeah. That's great. Yeah.

Yeah. That's what maybe that's why my wife, Jenny and I are so drawn to what you do is in our house, physical comedy beats out verbal comedy by a long shot. Yeah, it's just what I, I don't know, my mind, like, goes to visual jokes more quickly than verbal jokes. And oftentimes, like, I would struggle doing long form improv. I don't know why it's, like, a little bit more difficult for my brain to access, because there are a lot of verbal jokes in my shows as well.

But, you know, I love doing UCB. in long form improv and stuff like that. And I would do it a lot when I was coming up in the L.A. comedy scene, but I would find myself a lot of times on the back line being like, how do I, what is the game? Like, I don't know why I couldn't access it or like on comedy bang bangs. You know, I did a few episodes. Thank you, Scott, for having me.

But a lot of the times I'd just be sitting there going like, I don't know like what's going on. Totally. But I actually think that like in improv, leading with physicality, I think actually is great. It's so much fun. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the teams that I was on back in the day, when I initiated a game that was more physical, they would totally jump in and support me and stuff like that.

But I don't think it's a place that people go to immediately when they're doing long form. It always most more frequently, I think, starts verbally. Right. But I think it is, well, I think the people who are really good at it will initiate physical games. Right. Okay. So first of all, then I saw your show at Cherry Lane. By the time people hear this, it won't be running, so we'll have to plug your upcoming shows next.

Because you're basically going to finish a 60-plus show run. Yeah. How many is it going to be? 62 when it's all set and done. Amazing. Yeah. Which I know, compared to people on Broadway doing eight shows a week, it's nothing. but doing this show is something a little bit different.

It's a little intense. I feel like it's beyond exhausting what you're doing. Because how, pull me back from what I'm going to say being a spoiler. You're playing multiple characters. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's okay to show. Two primary characters. Yeah.

But then also additional characters. Oh, yeah, there are a few other characters in the show. There's tertiarys? Yeah, there's Turch. there's some tersh cares you do the voices that are completely different from one another

you do physicality that's like it's kind of a parody for people who haven't seen it's kind of a parody of a like almost like an 80s or 90s romcom

yeah I think that's the device that I'm using or what I'm mapping on yeah as they would say in in psychology class oh do they say that

in psychology okay yeah Yeah, but that's what I'm using, like, is the canvas, you know, which I'm painting on is the 90s rom-com. Yeah. And then I kind of, you know, spill a bunch of stuff on it from there. It's so, I can't even imagine how exhausting it is. It's exhausting. I'm exhausted.

Well, it's, you're, without giving away the gags, but it's like you're, you know, there'll be a rainstorm. But instead of a rainstorm and clowning. it's like you're pouring water, like a bucket of water on your head. Yeah, yeah. You're falling down a lot. There's a lot of falls. Like, I'm thinking a lot about, like, how it's almost like you're your own stunt person. Yeah.

So you, when you go down, is it hurt? Or are you in such impeccable shape? Is your core in such perfect shape that you, it doesn't hurt? You know, I do have a pretty strong core. Right now, I'm kind of rocking a six-pack. Oh, wow. I think in certain lighting. I don't know how it would look in this lighting.

Do you strive for it? It just happens. I don't strive for it. You're striving for core, and then the by-product is a six-pack. Yeah, and I'm like, what is this coming from? Like, my brother's super ripped, so maybe it runs in the family or something, but I'm not striving for this. Wow. It just happens to me.

By accident, you have a six-pack. Yeah. By accident. I know, what a terrible thing to say. For me, by accident, I've never had a six-packer. It's totally by accident. Wow. But if I had one, it would be also by accident.

Yeah, well, that's clown for you. That's clown. You know, is finding the gold through accidents, essentially. How'd you arrive? Like, you were saying you arrived at it partly because you did improv, like at UCB and L.A. I was introduced to clowning in college. I remember being on the phone with my mom, and she was like, what is this I see clown on your class schedule and I was like yeah yeah it's a class they have like

how cool is that she was like you need to sign up for business classes and I was like I'll do communications media like I was like well that appease you so I I double majored in theater and communications to appease my family to maybe have a little bit more of a professional type background but anyways yeah was introduced to it in college. And funny story, my college clown professor told me, you're going to fail clown because you're so bad at clown because I couldn't access my vulnerability. Wow.

So like a big part of clowning is being open to the audience and there's never a fourth wall there with you and you're supposed to let everybody see like your inner child and like your spirit. and I had this wall up, I guess. And he was like, if you're not able to access that, like you're going to fail clown. But the ironic thing is that failing is what you're supposed to do in clown in order.

Like, you're supposed to fail so much on stage. It's the art of failure. Yes, the art of failure. Yeah. Exactly. Oh. So if I had failed clown, I maybe would have ace clown. Yeah.

But I did ace clown. but I didn't fail clown. So did I fail clown? Yes. Because I didn't fail? Yes. And yes and no. Right.

Right. Right. So. That's fascinating because I feel like that, how that zooms out into like a lot of discussions we have on this podcast is like, it's similar, but not usually physical. So it's like usually in jokes, it's just like, well, what's the thing? That is a secret. Yeah. What's the thing you don't want to talk about?

Can you make that thing funny? Yeah. And it's usually like if you can make that funny, the thing you do not want to talk about. Yeah, you don't want anyone to know. Then that's like where you can really channel some magic. Yeah, that's where the gold. I mean, that's where you're like breaking your soul open.

And I think that's what people relate to the most. and the artists that are, you know, most, I guess, successful or most relatable and aware are those people who are able to share the deepest part of themselves. Do you remember, like, the first thing that you open up about with an audience where you're like, oh, that's different? Oh, yeah. I mean, I guess it's all hidden in, like, my physical comedy and the absurdity of my shows. but I guess

oh my gosh this is like so sad to say I almost don't want to say it so on my first show laid there is like a moment where she turns into her mother and so I have this like fear of turning into my mother

but I love my mom so much so I like never want her to know that I hope she never listens to this I will encourage her not to listen to that I don't think she listens to podcasts, so I think we're safe. But, yeah, she's an awesome woman. She's like an interesting character. But yeah, I just had, you know.

But you put that into the performance physically? Yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, it's more in there verbally. But I think the show laid, you know, eventually, not, you know, spoiler alert. I start the show as an egg. I hatch into a woman. and then eventually I turn back into an egg who hatches into a woman

and she says, I'm just like my mother. But I think everybody has that fear of like becoming their parents, right? Deeply. Or a lot of people. Deeply. Yeah, yeah. I certainly. Yeah, I certainly have it. Yeah, I'm sure a lot of comedians do.

I think, I think that's, yeah, I think that's accurate. I mean, I think that hits too close to home. Yeah. Inlaid, Jenny and I were commenting on, you ate a lot of raw eggs in the show. Yes. How many eggs is the most eggs

you've ever eaten in that show? You crack open eggs. I can't tell if you're actually eating them or they're just kind of like falling all over your face. Some of them I'm actually eating and a lot of them are falling just all over my body. But actually the most eggs I had ever eaten was the first work in progress show that I did

because it was more of an, it started from a place that was an endurance performance piece to where I was like, so the pattern of the show is this woman wakes up, lays an egg, has to decide whether she's going to raise her young or eat it. And so I just wanted to see how many times I could do that cycle until I was actually full. And I wasn't going to stop doing that

until I was actually, like, physically full. Yeah. So it was like an endurance piece. So probably in that show, I don't know. Maybe I went through that cycle, and it got faster and faster each time I did it. I don't know. In my, you know, mind's eye, I'm like, I did it 30 times or whatever. But it was probably something like 11 or 12 times.

Yeah. Yeah. That's what it felt like. Do you ever get sick? No, luckily. Yeah, I never got sick. In London, because, you know, in America, we pasteurized their eggs, but in the U.K., they don't pasteurize their eggs.

And one of the main ways you can get salmonella is from scat, chicken scat. Yeah, sure. So I would wipe the eggs off with baby wipes before every show. Yeah, but there is a point where I toss shells into my mouth as well. So, yeah. Just not very safe. So then your show that's on Netflix, which I also, Jenny and I also saw Nate with, again, I don't want to spoil it, but it's a, you play a character named Nate. Yeah.

Who rides into the theater on a mini motorcycle? Yeah. That is real. Yeah. It's fun. Yeah. And I didn't know, by the way, existed. I didn't know a mini motorcycle like that existed.

I know. Why would you? Why would one know that? They make them for wealthy children. Oh, that's what it is? Yeah, yeah, yeah, for rich kids. Yeah, and then you proceed as this character to, this is a real next level of crowdwork.

Thank you. You really toy with sort of consent and, like, there are male participants from the audience who I feel like are maybe afraid that you're going to either. hit their genitals or touch them or like how did that go i mean you probably did it hundreds of times it must have gone south with some of the participants a few times it had gone south yeah especially like in the early days of trying it so there is um a wrestling mat that i bring out during the show but during the early days you know i was performing at a spoiler i was performing at a spoiler i was performing

a theater that had a concrete floor, and for the first couple shows, I didn't have a wrestling mat until I realized, like, oh, I need to get one of these. You were wrestling on concrete with audience members. Yeah, yeah. It's insane. Just on the floor. More insane to, like, you know, risk the safety of an audience member, you know. Your safety and theirs. Yeah. And also, you know, eventually, um, because of the risk assessments, in the UK, I had to give them a form to read and to let them know what they were about to be doing, which is like wrestling me. So when the audience member comes up, you know, I give them a form that tells them exactly what they're going to be doing. But initially, in the early stages,

I would just, you know, like agitate them and try to, you know, work them up and get them to fight me. And so that resulted in much more aggression coming at me when we were doing the wrestling. But I thought, you know, this is all fun. Like everybody knows like, I'm just a little lady

playing this character. I thought but some of the guys were, you know, they would get really aggressive and this one guy who was a friend of mine, he like flipped me up and threw me down and like everybody in the audience thought like he broke my neck.

No. Yeah. What? There's a video of it. I'll have to find it and show you. That he broke your neck. The audience thought that he did. And he like threw me down like right on this part.

No. Right here really hard. You know like what's that wrestling move or they pick you up and throw you down? Yeah, like a pile driver. Like he had like a pile driver on me. And yeah, yeah. It was scary. And then you know like there was a show in Edinburgh.

where I guess maybe a man heard ahead of time what happens in the show and he just came up out of the audience before I even initiated this part and just started wrestling. Yeah, and I didn't kick him out. I didn't kick him out of the show. I don't know why.

I just sat him back down. I was like, we're not there yet. Not at that part yet. Yeah, I don't know what I was thinking. Did he come up later? Yeah, yeah. I picked him to come up later because I was like,

this is a way to save it, you know, because there was so much bad vibes in the audience from him doing that and everybody was, you know, a little bit tense and scared of him from that. So I was like, oh, I can. From the audience member attempting to wrestle you apropos of nothing, they were afraid. Yeah, I wonder why. So I thought, oh, this will be a way to lighten it if I welcome him on stage. Oh, my God. Then it'll put the audience more at ease if I welcome him back and they can see, like, this is okay.

I don't know. You're fearless. Like, I think that's part of what I'm responding to when I see, when I've seen all your shows or I've seen three of your shows, I'm just going like, what are you afraid of? Are you afraid of anything? Yeah, definitely. Like, skydiving, when I went skydiving, I thought this is not worth it. But I did go. I did go.

Why do you think that in skydiving? Yeah, just the whole time I was falling, I was thinking, like, if I die right now, this was not really worth the experience. Totally. It's the same feeling as going on a roller coaster. I feel the same way about roller coasters. Yeah, yeah, no, I feel the same way about roller coasters. Like, this isn't worth it? No, no, no, this is absolutely not worth it.

Oh, okay. I think roller coasters are worth it. Oh, you do think it's worth it. I like roller coasters, but I don't think, like, roller coasters have the same amount of risk as skydye. Close call. It depends on what town you're in. I guess so. You know what I mean?

There's certain towns. You see the roller coaster? Yeah. I've seen them make pancakes. I don't really trust them making a roller coaster. Yeah, especially those wooden ones. Those are the best ones in my opinion. Wooden roller coaster?

Oh, yeah. Yeah, the classics. Okay, so you're saying like, when you look at a roller coaster, you're like, that's worth it, feel safe enough. When you did skydiving, you're like, no, no, no, what are we doing? Well, I'm just like, what is this guy? I'm like, there's this guy on my back. Yeah, yeah, a guy in your back. I'm supposed to trust him.

him to pull the cord? Totally. You know, I'm like, what if this guy? Your whole life. You know, he just decides. Your whole life in this person's hands. Yeah, he's a psycho in this moment. And actually, you're right, at the end of the drop, when after he pulled the shoot,

I said, you saved my life. You saved my life. Thank you so much. You know, he does. That guy, he must have God complex, right? Right. Because he's saving everybody's life every day. Yeah.

Go get a real life-saving job, buddy. Go be a fireman, right? What are your? Taking people on the plane. In Clown, what is hack? The way that in stand-up comedy, is it? Yeah. For real?

Your hack? Go ahead. Sorry, finish what you're saying. In stand-up comedy, he's like, where are you from? What do you do for a living? You know what I mean? That would be like hack.

I would not say that. Right, right. I think I have perpetuated a problem in the clown scene where, and, you know, this isn't all on me. There's a lot of clowns that do this, but a very easy thing to go to is nudity, you know, to be vulnerable and to get laughs at the same time. It's like an instant way to just be vulnerable.

Right. It's a cheat. Right. Like I would describe you to people who haven't seen this show. like you're partially or mostly nude sometimes, but you, but there's also a lot of like makeup and sort of, you're playing characters that are, so it doesn't, it's not nudity in what you think of in a traditional sense as nudity. Right, right.

Thanks, Mike. Well, I'd say like getting naked just to get naked, that is hack to me. Okay. And clown. Got it. So I strive to not do that, but, you know, maybe some people would argue like, You know, in Nate, like, I'm topless from the top of the show. But, you know, I would say that's, like, part of the character's look.

But, you know, in, like, you know, clown, open mics and stuff like that, you'll see it's, like, just, like, a very easy thing that people go to, like, getting their ass or tits out. Right. And I've been guilty of that, too. Sure. You know, it's just an easy laugh. Sure. And it's physical. Like, what else is hacked?

Like, when there's a rain. storm and it's like a bucket of water over your head like is that something other people do oh um i've not seen that on stage so you so when you're trying to tell a story you're trying to come up with okay how can i tell the story that i'm trying to tell physically yeah in a way that i haven't seen before um i don't know if i think about it as like i'm not trying to think of something i haven't seen before, but I think about a way that I can create an image by myself on stage. And so like the easiest way is with a camping shower. Right. Yeah. And it just happens. Oh, that's what it is. It's a camping shower. Yeah. And it just happens to be like a really stupid visual. But like, you know,

the clown is kind of like playing at the idea of something like a little kid plays house. So you're essentially like trying to create this world to the best of your abilities with your limited resources like a little kid when they're playing house right yeah and so like a clown takes what limited resources it has to create the most like magical playful imaginative world that that it can that's what I respond to about it like I find it to be so human of an art form like it goes to the part of, like, what it is to be just kind of animal versions of ourselves. Oh, thanks, Mike. I think.

I don't know if that's right or wrong. A lot of it can get pretty primal. Yeah. A lot of clown shows. Do you, like, the character, one of the characters you play in Weir, like, the male character, and then Nate, I would describe as having, like, an angry streak. Yeah. Are you get, are you, are, do you have an angry streak? Do people you know have an angry streak?

Is that one of the themes you're getting at? know some people. I know some people. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I grew up around a lot of very colorful characters. I don't like this. And so, yeah, like those are people that I draw inspiration from in my characters. Yeah. Do you have something you're getting at with the anger, you feel like? I think I like to show that those people that go to anger really quickly have a vulnerable side or like have a softer side. And I like to show like, yeah, many different aspects of a person's soul or personality or like these people that put up a really tough exterior that they still have a hard.

heart you know because a lot of the people in my life growing up that you know i witnessed that kind of behavior from i really had a lot of have a lot of love for and so i know that and i know that there's you know a good side to them so i like to play with that in my character work yeah it's like it's almost like a rageaholic kind of flip of a switch yeah i feel like that that's what you're conveying yeah that would well then i'm doing a good job yeah yeah that's what i meant to say yeah yeah thank you thank you and um yeah no it's a really wild thing to witness um yeah what are what are what are people's misunderstandings about clown people's misunderstandings about clown um well for you know the scary clown like the birthday clown the i don't know how that started yeah no i know it's

terrible well it seems like there's a divergence in terms of like what clowning maybe started as and it became the birthday clown yeah and then it became what you do which is like a like a performance art clowning right um well because you know the performance or our clown are like what I do and the really incredible physical comedians of our time like Charlie Chaplin and Steve Martin and you know Lucille Ball like I was talking about earlier you know I don't know how like what they do turned into birthday clown but I can only imagine that it was like you know people that really wanted to do those things but didn't really have a lot of Yeah, of course.

You know, a lot of skill. Didn't have the chops. You know, just threw on a costume to try to, you know, make up for skills they didn't have to, you know, it's kind of like getting naked. Right. Putting on a big costume. But you know what I will say is there's this famous clown from back in the day in London named Joseph Grimaldi. And he did wear, like, really elaborate face paint and big for little. collars and stuff like that but it was just so people could see him from far away so i think like

the hack clowns that didn't really have this you know skill set kind of just brought it into the birthday space and classic yeah kind of got you know it got a bad rap brought an art form into the birthday space yeah yeah so it got a bad rap i mean could you imagine people bringing stand up and storytelling into the birthday space like how it would fall from grace especially i mean it's sort of has in a way. I mean, like, it's, I feel like stand-up people adopt into, yeah, being like the MC of the birthday. Right. I feel like jokes generally go awry in life. You know what I mean? When you try to export jokes into, like I've literally been working on this joke lately and it's not even really a joke, but I say to the audience sometimes I go, these are nighttime thoughts. I go, if anyone's

wondering if you should bring any of these thoughts into the daytime, you should. No, yeah, yeah, yeah. These are nighttime thoughts. That's accurate. I'm actually trying to hack into that lately, which is just differentiation between, I think, sometimes societally, we have this thing where we're like, where we're like, I'm funny. I'm just saying what the comedian says, like, well, yeah, but you actually, you need the context.

Yeah, yeah. That's a nighttime nightclub. You're in a basement somewhere. We're all on the same page. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Maybe this isn't right. In some hole in the wall. Yeah.

Like I said this thing lately where on stage I'll go, like people put too much importance on what comedians say. Like you shouldn't leave here tonight and be like, and that's how we solve health care. No, yeah, not at all. Not your job. Not my job. No, no. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But maybe we can laugh a little bit about it about the struggle.

Exactly. Yeah, that's what it's about, not solving stuff. Would you have advice for people who want to do clowning? Oh, yeah, I mean, I would say, like, just go do it and go sign up for classes. You don't need to take the fancy, you know, French clown school. You can. That's a great place to learn clown, and there's a lot of great teachers there. But there's a lot of great clown teachers all over the country.

Because a big part of, you know, clowning or, like, when you're learning clowning, is you need to listen to what the audience is responding to. So like, if I pick up this cup and you don't react, then I move on to something else. Or I can try something else with the cup where I, you know, I go like this with the cup or something. And maybe you like that. So I go a little bit further with that. You know, that's a little, you know, I'm cheating a little bit because I'm like going sexual. Right, right.

You know, but like, that's a good example. For the audio listeners, this is just a sexual and you end it with a mug. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm fingering the handle on the mug. But you get what I'm saying. So you're supposed to listen. It's all experimentation. Well, you're supposed to go to where the audience is leading you to.

So, like, their laugh leads you to your bits. So, like, you might have your show that you're doing, but if you hear them laughing at something else, you're supposed to drop that and do what they think is funny. Wow. And then you can always go back. back to what you are doing. But yeah, that's how you're supposed to create your material.

Is there anything in your show right now where you're like, it wasn't even in the show, but then the audience just led you there? Oh. Well, I have a really good example of that from Nate. What's it from Nate? It's a spoiler. I think we can do, here's what I'll say to the audience. If you're, go watch Nate, pause this.

Yeah. Go watch Nate's on Netflix. Thanks. Natalie Palamedes, Nate. and then come back here and listen to this without a spoiler. Okay, great. So the part where Nate is crying at the end in the shower and I start transforming into a woman

and I turn into eventually turn into myself, but first I turn into myself and then I turn into Miss Jackson. I had an audience member come up to me after the show and in that stage that they saw the show, I just turned into myself at the end, and that was the end of the show. And the audience member said to me, I thought in that moment you were going to turn into Ms. Jackson. And I was like, oh, my gosh, that's such a good idea to return to her to see, like, how she

is doing or, you know, how she's feeling at the end, like, we need to resolve this. Right. Ms. Jackson was a character from earlier. Yes, yes, she's a character from earlier in Nate. And, yeah, so I returned to her at the end. the end of the show, but initially I didn't see that in my mind's eye. Like, I just kind of ended the show, you know, stripping away everything and turning into myself. And you still get that moment in there. And I think that's a beautiful, you know, raw moment in the show. But I think

that the show is something completely different if you don't return to Ms. Jackson. Yeah. I had that with the old man in the pool where, like, I did it. And it was, I talk about an old man when I was a kid in the locker room of a YMCA, like massaging his testicles. And it was like an image I couldn't get out of my head. And literally Jud Apatow came to the show one night when I was workshopping it and goes, I feel like it has to go back to the old man in the locker room. Like it has to return there. Whoa.

And I was like, yeah. Yeah. I think you're right. And it's like, I do think sometimes with any art form, like, the piece of art needs friends. Yeah, for sure. Sometimes the friends are the audience. And that's why you workshop it so that, you know,

you can get that feedback from people and give it time to... Wait, walk me through Amy Poehler producing Nate because that feels like one of the highest honors one could imagine. It truly is... Amy being one of, I think, the greatest... One of the greatest sketch comedians, physical comedians, improvisers I've ever seen. Yeah. No, she's incredible. It was an honor to work with her. And yeah, I just feel so lucky that I had that opportunity. And one of her producers saw it in Edinburgh. So they showed her a tape of it. And she just said, I love this. And she asked me to come in for a meeting and told me she wanted to produce it as a special. And, yeah, I was just blown away that she liked it.

Wow. And, yeah, it was just an incredible opportunity. I think she's amazing. And, yeah, it was just so surreal to have her there at the taping and to have her help along the way. And, yeah, she's just an awesome person. How similar is she to Hillary and Chelsea Clinton? Yeah, they're neck and neck.

They're neck and neck. This is something people can see that you did. Yes. That was also surreal. Yeah, I can only imagine. Yeah. You taught Hillary and Chelsea Clinton clowning. Yeah, well, I was, yeah, there for their clown experience, I guess. Yeah. How do that

happen? I have no idea who wrote me into that. Yeah. But yeah, I just got a call for my manager one day and he was like, you don't have to do this. And I was like, what is it? And he's like, do you want to go to Paris? And I was like, of course. And he's like, and take a clown class. And I was like, okay, that should be easy. And he's like with Chelsea and Hillary Clinton. And I was just like, I can't. I have to find out what that is. Yeah, sure.

I can't. How would you say no to that? Yeah. You know what I mean? All the elements are there. Yeah, I mean. For a magical experience. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And it truly was. It truly was. And, yeah, Chelsea let me grab her boobs. Wow. And that was the highlight for me. That was the highlight. Were you concerned? When I did that?

Yeah. Yeah. was thinking, yeah, I was scared out of my mind. Secret Service is all over the place. Sure. You know what I mean? But she consented, you know, of course. Do you like teaching non-professionals like that? You know, I wasn't the teacher. Oh, right, right. You're just in the class.

But, you know, they gave it their best. I thought they did a really good job. Right. Yeah. I couldn't imagine teaching them. Yeah. I think that that's quite a challenge. Yeah. Okay. This, it relates to questions we get all the time from comedians, which is like, because I'm a storyteller and it's like a long form thing, people go, how do we, how would one develop this in pieces?

You know, with stories, it's hard because it's like open mics or five minutes or two minutes or three minutes. And it's like, how do you make something that's 10 minutes, 40 minutes an hour? It's like, I think about that with clowning. It's like, how would you develop these things in pieces? Yeah, yeah. that's a good question. So my show laid, I kind of knew the whole arc of the show just straight from the top. So that show I developed as a whole from the star. With Nate, I started with the bit where I wrestle an audience member that started as a 10-minute piece that I did at the Tomorrow Show for the first time. Do you know Ron Lynch's show, Tomorrow Show? I don't know that one. It's a staple show in Los Angeles. It's on, I think every Saturday at midnight might be once a month now, I'm not sure. So I started with that, and then I was exploring different images of masculinity around that idea of that character that I was exploring.

And so I just developed different bits around these images that I had. And I would have like a workshop show where I would just invite people to come from. free and watch me develop different ideas or different bits. Like at the top of the need show, I, you know, ask somebody if I can grab their breasts. And that just came from. I was improvising, like, chugging a ton because, you know, that's something that you see happen quite often is, you know,

guys chugging beers and stuff like. So I was just chugging a bunch of lecois. And I just improvised whoever wins. this like chugging contest gets to do whatever they want to whoever they want in this room and I won you know my character won and so it just came from an impulse or an improvisation I was like okay now that I won right what do I get to do if that what else yeah what would this guy want to do probably you know grab some you know nice jugs that are you know a plenty in the room And so I, yeah, the first time I did this bit, I was just improvising, like, putting my hands as close as the woman would let me get to her breast.

And then right before I grabbed it, I said, may I? Oh, my God. And it was just, yeah, improvised the first time. So. The first time you did that, did you have a fear that the person could have a really acidic reaction to that? Yeah, yeah, for sure. but I was going so slowly that I was feeling them out and how comfortable they were, you know?

So, you know, I didn't rush to grab anybody and I didn't want to make anybody feel unsafe. But, yeah, it was just like walking a tight wire or tight rope. Yeah, walking a tight rope kind of moment. That is so fascinating. But yeah, and then in Weir, my show, you know, there's a tragic accident at the top of the show. And so that was the first 10-minute piece I did of that show.

And I just did an opening for Mike O'Brien. He had a stand-up show he was doing at a lesion. And he was like, well, you open for me. And I was like, yeah, can I try something new? And he was like, yeah, whatever you want. And so I just tried this tragic scene. And it went well. And so I was like, oh, there's so much there.

like with these characters and I really wanted to, you know, explore more and, you know, just see what more meat there was with those characters and with that story. Okay, this is the slow round. Okay. Slowing it down. Slowing it down. Who are you jealous of? Oh, my gosh.

Everybody on SNL. I want to be on SNL so badly. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. I made a whole movie about the jealousy of SNL. Oh, yes. Oh, okay, so you too. Yeah, you know, it's like I had it in a different era of my life.

Yeah. But I don't, you still have it. You're just like... Yeah, there's a deep part of me that's like, Lauren, please. I'm like, don't, why don't you like me? Totally. But, um... Has he seen your shows?

I don't think so. I don't know. I bet someone's shown him your shows. I'm sure. Or something. Come on, Lauren. I can only imagine. Watch a clip.

Watch a clip. Watch a clip. Um, yeah, no, but it, I mean, it's just such a legacy. You'd be an unbelievable cast. member. Oh, thank you. Thank you. But yeah, no, I'm so happy for all my friends that are on there and, you know, I'm happy for all those guys. But yeah, there's a part of me that's like, I want to be on there so bad. Who else am I jealous of? Anybody who's able to get their thing made without a bunch of executives ruining it. That's you. What are you talking about? What

executive is signing off on your show? Right, right. But I have to like make my theater shows because Nobody will, like, make my TV show or something like that. You know what I mean? I think it's so funny that you're jealous of a thing that people are jealous of you about. What are you talking about? Well, thanks, Mike. What are you talking about? Your show is so, like, it's the polar opposite of something that looks like it's done with studio notes.

Right, no, it's not. It's not. But I want to be able to make, like, a movie or a TV show and not have those things happen. Do you want to make movies? Is that what you want to do? Yeah, I would love to make, like, dark comedies. Do you think that there's a space? I think about this all the time in relation to Chaplin, because my wife and I are also, I think, similarly obsessed with Chaplin.

Yeah. Is there a space for a modern chaplain in film? Yeah. Yeah, I definitely think so. I mean, Mr. Bean is kind of like a modern chaplain, but... Jim Carrey in some ways was during that, like, pet detective era. Yeah, yeah. And I think, like, I don't know, I think there's, you know, space now for...

I think people would really love seeing some more physical comedy in the film space. Like, we don't really have any really stupid, physical, idiotic comedies anymore like we did in the Right. I feel like Will Ferrell had a run in film where like Elf and some of those where you're like, oh, this is really, this is really evocative physically. Yeah, yeah. No, there's so many great like comedies from like, you know, 20 plus years ago that really embrace like physical comedy and stupid visual bits like Austin Powers or Dr. Steve Broll and, um, You know, Tim and Eric and, yeah, superstar. I mean, Amy Sedaris, Strangers with Candy is such a brilliant, like, physical comedy show, like, how her dad is always frozen. Like, we need more of that. I totally agree.

Did your life go how you expected it to go? No. Yeah, that's what I would guess. I mean, not at all. I never thought. No, I didn't think I'd be doing like these. You know, like insane theater shows where I'm like exhausting myself every day. Do you ever stop me in the show and go like, in your mind, go like, what am I doing?

Like, what have I got myself into? 100%. There are so many moments where I'm like, fuck, I don't know if I can make it through. You know, like, there's some shows where I'm like inside my head going, whew, you got it. You can do it. Keep going. But why that? Like because of the audience or because it's so hard to do physically?

Oh, well, I tell myself to keep going because the audience is there and I want them to have a great time. Yeah. And yeah, I guess I'm having that thought because I'm just exhausted. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I have it sometimes. I would imagine you have it because I have it sometimes even my shows where I'm just like, well, I guess I'm this person. No.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I guess I'm this, what happened? Where does that thought come from? I don't know. Yeah, but see, you never imagine yourself doing what you're doing? Nope. What did you imagine yourself doing? When I was a kid?

Yeah. Same as you, Saturday Night Live. Oh, okay. When I was a kid, it was the first thing I watched. And then at a certain point, making movies. Oh, right on. You're doing it. Yeah, and then that, you know, it was my 20, like when I was 20,

or 19, I did stand up on a lark. Yeah. And then I was like, oh, huh, I guess I could do this. But now I'm like... On a lark? Yeah, yeah, sort of, yeah. No. Entered a contest, yeah.

No way. Yeah, this isn't about me, though. You entered a con... I mean, but... Have you talked about this before? I feel like I have. I feel like I've touched on it, but yeah, I entered a college contest and I won, yeah. No way.

Yeah, yeah. And what story did you tell? I play, believe it or not, it's... It's what you do. I played a character for eight minutes that ended in a musical number in character. Shut up. Yeah, yeah. You sing?

Sure. Why not? Shut up. Oh my gosh. I do what I have to. Wow. Yeah, is that funny? It didn't occur.

It didn't make the connection until sitting here right now that that maybe is a thing that I lock into with your shows is that before I became myself on stage. I used to play characters on stage that were extreme, not unlike you. Wow. But also, like, I veered away from that partly because when you see someone do it like you, better. No. No, for real. You won. I won that.

I'm sure you were great. I won that round. No, but you know what I mean? Like, I'm sure you've had that over the years sometimes where, like, you were veering into one thing and then you see someone who's so good at you because it's like, well, that's that. Well, 100%. I mean, like, I tried stand up, you know, initially, like, when I first came up. out to LA, I was doing everything, sketch, improv, UCB, is stand-up. I was going to open mics.

Sure. And like I said, like, you know, verbally, like, jokes, like, I don't know, like, I just don't have that knack for it. And I would just watch people up on open mics just spit in fire. And I was like, throwing fireballs. I'm bowing out. I'm bowing out. Like, I would just be up there slobbering at the mic.

And I'm like, I need to do something else. This isn't for me. I'm laughing so hard because I do think that we're stumbling upon a thing, which is a feeling sometimes when you explore a lot of things where sometimes you see someone. And I have this with you. I see you do what you're doing. And I just go fully, okay, I'm not going to do that because that is clearly... That's their thing.

Well, yeah, that's their thing. This is my thing. You're doing it. Yeah, yeah. Well, likewise, with you. Thanks. I mean, like, yeah, nobody can do what you do, and it's just so specific, and the way that you weave details and jokes and meaning into your stories is just so powerful and so uniquely you. Thanks.

Yeah, I mean. Well. You're often somebody who is mentioned to me is somebody's favorite comedian. Oh. Actually. Even my GI doctor. Oh, perfect. I will say that.

Perfect. I'm so glad. The last thing that we do is working out for a cause. Is there a nonprofit that you like to support? A nonprofit that I like to support? I feel like your theater is a nonprofit. Oh, yeah. The Elysian.

So the Elysian is a nonprofit theater. And, yeah, the mission is just to support artists taking risks. I love the Elysian. Thank you. I think it's a gorgeous theater space. It's beautifully programmed. Like, it just seems like great energy. Yeah.

Are you part of a group of people who run it? Yeah. So me and my friend Kimberly Stuckwitch were the founding members that remain on the board from, like, the original days. And then, yeah, there are a group of people, like, on the board of directors that help to run the theater. And then we have Jacqueline Landgraf, the artistic director. Latif Tayor, the executive director, and Jessica Kelly, the programming director. And the three of them together collectively come up with the programming and the different programs and classes for artists and stuff like that.

I feel like one of the reasons why, and we'll contribute to the Elysian, we'll link to them in the show notes, encourage other people to contribute as well. Oh, thank you. I think it's so important that people do experimental theater right now. I feel like everything is so based on, like, so much theater is just commercial theater based on, like, what sells? I know. And it's like, well, that's not good for artists. Artists and just humanity at large.

It's weirdly like, like, with the dawn of AI and all this stuff, it's like the antidote for that is. Is live performance. Yeah. Yeah, live performance specificity experimentation, things that like, that a machine could not come up with. Oh, 100%, I'm totally with you. And I feel like we need to support spaces for artists to explore freely and not feel like they have to make something to survive a commercial machine. Yeah.

You know, so, yeah, and just to have that freedom to make something truly bizarre or something truly from their soul or their heart is, yeah, special and important. Natalie Palmedes, I admire you so much. Thanks for coming on. Likewise, I admire you too. And can I plug shows? Yeah, let's talk about where your shows are. I have my show We are I'm doing in London from January 14th to the 24th. Nice. Yeah, that's all I got.

What theater? The Soho Theater, Walthamstow. All right. All right. Well, this is awesome. Yeah, thank you so much for having me, Mike. Working it up. Because it's not done. We're working it out because there's no one.

That's going to do it for another episode of working it out. You can follow Natalie Palamedes on Instagram at Natalie Palamedes. You can watch her special Nate on Netflix. Pretty soon she'll be touring Weir, which I can't recommend more highly, including London. She'll be in London in January. Check out Burbigs.com. Sign up for the mailing list to be the first to know about my upcoming shows.

You can watch the full video of this episode on our YouTube channel at Mike Barbiglia, and please subscribe. It helps us so much. We're posting more and more videos, and then they'll get out to more and more people. Our producers are myself, along with Peter Salomon, Joseph Barbiglia, Mabel Lewis and Gary Simons, sound mixed by Shub Sarin. Supervising engineer Kate Balinski,

special thanks to Jack Anzenoff and Bleachers for their music. Special thanks, as always, to my wife, the poet, J. Hope Stein. And our daughter, Una, who built the original radio fort made of pillows. Jenny and I are going to do another jokes and poems soon in January. So sign up for the text message alerts to find out about that in New York City. Thanks most of all to you who are listening. If you enjoy the show, please rate us and review us on Apple Podcasts. It really helps.

We've got almost 200 episodes all free. No haywall. Check them out. Tell your friends, tell your enemies. Tell Nate, you know, Natalie Helmese's character from her special. Nate, next time you run into Nate, and trust me, with his huge mustache, plaid jacket, and black eye, can't miss him. Just be like, hey, Nate, I know you're struggling with your feelings and your vulnerability. Here's a podcast that might help you. It's Mike Barbigley is working it out where

Mike Barbigley talks to other comedians and creatives about the process. And yes, their feelings. So pop on those headphones, Nate, crack open to La Croy and enjoy. Thanks, everybody. We're working it out. We'll see you next time.