Mike Birbiglia's Working It Out - 20. Jacqueline Novak: 50 Ways To Get Eaten By the Garage Door

Episode Date: October 19, 2020

Jacqueline and Mike have toured together for years and Mike recently produced Jacqueline’s Off-Broadway hit “Get On Your Knees.” On this episode they get nerdy on joke structure: setups, punchlines, tags and secants. They also dig into memories of Jacqueline’s childhood friend getting eaten by a garage door and what “blinking man” means at a crosswalk. Find out why Mike concludes the episode by saying “You must be the first repeat guest!” A must listen. Please consider donating to: Loveland Therapy Fund https://thelovelandfoundation.org/loveland-therapy-fund/

Our presenting sponsor of this Jack the Novak episode is Spindrift. Spindrift is sparkling water with real squeezed fruit that I love. It's hard to get me to like fruit. I'm not a fruit-loving person. I'm a pizza-loving person who drinks sparkling water with squeezed real fruit when Spindrift does it. I don't know what they're doing. There's no added sugars, no artificial sweeteners, but I am obsessed. I drink so much of this. It's in 11 varieties. My favorite is lemon. Go to drinkspindrift.com. Use the promo code. I got my own promo code,

berbigs25, and you get 25% off 25% off do it for me do it for the show do it for working it out berbigs25 to get 25% off spin drift and now the show alright let me put oh shit I'm so sorry my coffee's across the room

and I'm literally just grabbing it okay sure of course but we're live and you know feel free to use this oh yeah I'm gonna use this this, okay? Sure, of course. But we're live and, you know, feel free to use this. Oh, yeah, I'm going to use this. This is going to be huge. This is going to go, this 10 seconds is going to go viral. Hey, everybody, we are back with another episode of Working It Out, episode 20. I'm so excited.

We have Jacqueline novak one of the stars of tip your weight staff when we were raising money for comedy clubs across the country in the spring uh she is a riot we are old friends i'll say nothing more i have uh something to plug this week, which is I'm doing a working it out virtually. You can watch this from anywhere in the world, Thursday night, Friday night, Saturday night, and it's going to be all new material. Some stuff you might have heard on here, some maybe elsewhere. If you want to participate in the slow round, I'm going to do it with some of you. Email specificconcerns at burbiggs.com and say what your answer would be to a slow round question,

and we may drop you a line. Also, I will be announcing one last outdoor show, fairfieldcomedyclub.com in Connecticut. So be aware of that. And without further ado, one of the funniest people I have ever encountered, Jacqueline Milvak. We're working it.

So this episode is going to be different because it just occurred to me today. I was like, usually I give an intro that's before the guest comes on. I say, you may have seen her, blah, blah, blah. And then it's like, I was like, no, no, we're good friends. Let's have you just say, what do you like to be known for?

Because I know you as a great comedian, a great author, solo show artist who had a hit show Get On Your Knees off Broadway. But what do you like to think of yourself as? There will be a 10-minute intermission.

I enjoy the kind of almost crassness of the term comedian, even though I feel like recently there's been a, you know, like, like, you know, there's always that thing like,

like sometimes people say like to you, like, you know, the thing for me about it's so interesting, but comedians is they're actually very smart. Oh yeah. They're actually very smart. Yeah.

Jacqueline, you've been talking to my mom. It's really like, it's like, it's like, and they always I feel like act like, you know, it's their insight. Everyone else thinks you guys are fools. Jesters.

You know, jesters, fools. Silly people. Silly people. It takes a lot of real smarts. That's what i noticed yeah it's it's uh and of course like could you imagine if you did that like at your doctor's office you're like you know a lot of people think doctors are fucking assholes but like you're nice like you're not you're okay because what is like i or even like, what is the cliche? What if you went to the dentist and you go

like, you know, I hear a lot of you guys commit suicide, but like you seem like you're having a good mental health situation. Like what's going on with you? That's hysterical. And that is a thing about dentists, right? Well, it's a cliche, I think. I don't even know if it's statistically true. I mean, I always lean towards

like, let's go with it, you know? Well, you know, it's statistically true. I always lean towards, let's go with it. Yeah, sure. Well, you know, it's the other statistic that just makes me so happy is that you're more likely to become a dentist if your name is Dennis. What? That's real, Mike. Maybe we could workshop that today because i'm not even joking because because i've i've spent the last like you know however long

knowing i'm coming on this thing coming up with like how i'm going to explain to you on the on the podcast that i refuse to work out material even just the way you said this thing is insulting the way that we're describing comedians as saying like, you're actually smart. Oh my God. Knowing I was going to come on this thing. This is hysterical. I actually,

I think it's because I think that podcast, you know, still has stigma. It does. Of course it does. And the word, I mean, it comes from iPod,

right? I don't even know. I think it does. I think it was like, it was like audio, like audio programming for your iPod. Jacqueline, can I just point out that you're teaching me so much stuff that you kind of know? Well, you know, I couldn't, this is, this is the thing about like myth or whatever, like that one definition of myth that I enjoy. Okay. But I know I've told you i i feel like i can remember telling you like this minimum two times yeah and you always like being like half into it but like it's like myth is something that never happened but it's always happening okay it's like a story on an archetypal level, right? And so I enjoy repeating kind of urban legend statistics, right?

Because I think there's like something in them. If they're sticky enough that people have passed them around, it's like there's some value in them as an idea. They do something in our brain that's like interesting. So I feel like they're worth talking about even if they're false. Like KFC, the idea that KFC had to change its name to KFC

because they're not actually selling chicken. They're so modified. Oh, yes, that is an urban legend. I've heard that, yep. And it's not true, supposedly. That's another myth, perhaps. Who knows? Yeah.

Not true and yet enjoyable to think about because I feel like it opens up the brain to this really satisfying concept. Well, I think like what you're describing, uh, and how it ties into the working it out, uh, show is will be a burden put on you. I will fly free. You will bring it back to the show. Yeah. But I think that it actually is interesting in terms of like my brother, Joe, who is a producer on the podcast, sometimes describes comedy writing as letting your brain go for a walk. And I feel like what you're just...

Yeah, it's a good one. And I think it's so true. And I think that what you're describing is sort of that, which is to say like, yeah, let's just go with that. Let's just go with KFC as in chicken and see where that lands.

Totally. Because, and I've opened myself up to this more and more in this way where i sort of defend i i'm like well i'm not shutting down the conversation now because this isn't true uh and and like i feel like we're all safe like like it's not dangerous to go on a walk in the brain or it shouldn't be right yeah no i. No, I get it. I get that. Yeah, you get it. You get it. This is boring. I'm always defending.

No, bring me back. I forget what the point was. I want to circle back to the idea of like, of like what you're saying is urban legends can sometimes make for good jokes because you're sort of letting your brain go for a walk. However, and this is where I think comedy becomes under this like major current discussion because sometimes urban legends just are generalizations comes under this major current discussion. Because sometimes urban legends just are generalizations or they're based on generalizations or stereotypes,

in which case they are hurtful. You know, like if they're about a gender or a race or sexuality, it's like, well, actually, that's not great for me kind of thing. Yes. Well, you know, I've thought a lot about this recently and thinking about, I've worried at times, okay, that, okay, I once read this thing that said something like, comedian is a moralist disguising themselves as a scientist.

Okay? Okay. And this is one during like deep dives just trying to like get below the rumors of what makes comedy comedy, you know, like some academic thing that I read. And it was like, and, and so I've always felt like the reason that I can do comedy or the reason that I do, that I am doing comedy versus, I don't know, trying to be an academic or something is that I enjoy making points and with abandon, right? Like,

And with abandon, right? And with rigor, you know, rigorous thinking only to my own aims of entertainment, right? Yes, rigorous and irresponsible. Exactly. I was worried about this. And I said it to Guy Branum for some reason. I'm trying to think what it came about. But I was like, you know, I'm worried that… Is this just a straight-up name drop at the top of the show?

I mean, no, I just want to be clear on what just happened. No, because I'm going to quote him. Okay, I'm going to quote him. And there's nothing, I mean, to hear a friend... But is it a full name drop? Or is it essential to... I mean, what is a name drop, Mike? Honestly, what is a name drop?

Is it essential to the story that it's by Guy Branagh? Credit where credit's due is what it is. Credit where credit's due. Okay, sure, sure, sure. Okay. He's a notionist, okay? Okay, sure. And actually, now maybe, I'm not sure.

You may have to cut this. I'm not sure I know. I'm just saying, is his celebrity crucial to the story making sense? It's crucial to my ego. No, I've actually realized, Mike, you know, as friends, I try to go into true self-awareness with you, right? We enjoy this, right? Sure. What are the true motivations? So let me think about that for a second. Here's what it is. I think it's that the end of the guy Brandon story involves essentially a compliment of me. Okay, sure. Okay. So I

understand the purpose. And therefore, I think... His celebrity actually heightens the compliment in some way, which is fair because you're the guest on the podcast. Yeah, I don't know. Well, but the question I asked him was something like... Because the realization I had... Okay, okay. Here's what it is.

Let me... There's like a couple things popping off and I want to finish one of them. If the listeners aren't getting this at this point in the podcast, Jacqueline thrives on tangents. Well, you know, you're going to die for this. I tweeted this assuming it would go huge. Which, by the way, this is a bit, you could argue of mine okay that's lived in the notebooks forever that like i can think of a million times in my life where i've said the

words this could be huge okay yeah and then i'm like oh yeah but nothing in my life has ever been huge it was like it was like it was like it's like when does it happen like i've said it so many times do you know i feel like well, our mutual friend who we've known forever is John Mulaney. And I feel like you and me and John talk a lot. Did you think saying mutual friend lowers the name drop of it? Because like they already know he's your friend. Well, he was on the like the third episode of the show. So they know him. But it does actually provide also context for why how you and I are friends and and I think I might bring him up later because Pete Holmes has a reference to him that is pretty funny that I was going to bring up to you

um but anyway you and John and I also have this have had this as a discussion point which is when you imagine a joke that you have written and then you imagine laughter and applause after wait do you know that the this is not I'm not sure if you have it right. Are you ready for this? Sure. The story. The story is that the three of us were talking. I think maybe in a car, like maybe, you know, or opening for you or something like that.

Three of us are talking. You two are talking about how you hear the laughter of the audience in your head when you're writing a joke. Okay. And I said, oh, my God, I never have once. Oh, that's interesting. Fascinating. And I was like, damn.

Your version of the story is correct. And it's rich, right? It is rich. It's really rich. It says everything. It says everything about gender and culture and comedy. You've been raised by a culture who has told you your jokes that you have not performed on stage

are just not that strong. No, and I wondered at the time, okay, is that what I need to be doing? You know, will I be better? If I'm imagining the potential for audience laugh, will I be better if I'm, if I'm imagining the potential for audience laugh? Cause it's not like I'm even, I don't think I'm, I'm imagining an audience and they're not laughing. I think I'm just sort of not imagining an audience. Right. Sure. I think that's what it is. But it was like, Oh, if I actively choose to imagine laughter in response,

will that lead me to seek it out? then and thus like like a problem for me you know sort of in a tradesman sense with comedy has always been that i don't always remember where the audience laughed okay yeah and so you know it's almost like um someone would be like you you figured it out like you figured out the perfect way to do that line and then like didn't you notice how they laughed a lot when you said it that way yeah like why didn't you then say it that way the next night right and it's like i think i protectively almost like block out audience laughter like during and so then i almost don't receive the sort of feedback that like like, can lead you towards narrowing down to a final best version of something. I get that. I get that. I mean,

but I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I got off track from the Guy Branum name drop story. Yeah, Guy Branum and tangents. I just wanted to say my thing that I thought was going to go huge, okay, which was this realization I had, like lot of my bits essentially are self-defense, right? So it's like I stew for years about one of my supposed faults and then think up defenses for it. So one of them was people telling me I go off in tangents, blah, blah, blah. And so I came up with this thing and I charted it and put it on, I drew a little picture, a little diagram, which is that I'm not going on tangents, okay? So picture like a circle, okay?

And the conversation's going around the line of the circle, right? Okay, sure. You picture like the tangent coming off the circle, right? Like in geometry? Sure. Like it's that, right? It's not a tangent pitch, okay? It's a secant, okay?

I'm cutting you inside the circle to where we really need to go anyway. Isn't that huge? That's smart. I like that. Thanks. I think it's hysterical. Maybe we'll draw that out for Instagram so people can understand.

Well, you know, I thought the chart was going to soar. Oh, so you made it and posted that? Oh, yeah. Did you do the drawing? You did the drawing? Oh, yeah. I'm trying to find... I'm a Oh, yeah. I'm trying to find, I'm a little distracted because now I'm trying to find on Instagram the image that you posted.

No, it was Twitter, which is even worse because I'm barely on Twitter. It's on Twitter. And like to post an image on Twitter is kind of like, you're really like, you're putting your chips out there. Oh, my God. Here it is. I just found it. Okay. I'm going to read this. September 20th, 2018. And it's a, and it's a photograph you took of like a,

a white sheet of paper lined with a drawing of a secant. And you wrote, when I take, when I take a sharp turn in a conversation someone will assume i am going off on a tangent and might encourage me to quote get to the point but actually they're the fools because i was trying to escort them on a all caps secant i'm sorry which would have gotten us all to the point quicker then it's a drawing of a circle with a tangent and a secant and then the uh it says start of conversation at this part of the circle and then it says it veers off and says tangent and but then someone wrote at thinking

monk wrote this should be taught in schools. Here's the inside joke that I'm going to try to pull with the podcast. I've never done anything like this before. All right. I'm going to direct the listeners to the tweet. And I'm going to say, I'd like all the Working It Out listeners to retweet this,

even if you don't fully understand it. And I want to see if we can get to like 500 retweets. So like, do you have a smell that you remember from childhood? Oh, yeah. Oh, the smell of the bookstore. Like the smell of fresh Babysitter's Club books. Oh, yeah, sure.

From when I was like going to like, I think it was Walden Books or whatever, like the mall bookstores. They got rid of those. Yeah. But it was like the smell of that. I love this. You know like when you get the card stock kind of shiny like advertisement things,

they're like that smell, you know, the fresh. Yeah. Like that's the same smell as like the cover of the new Babysitter's Club paperbacks. Yeah. And that one is just, it's just. Why do you think you like the smell so much? Well, I love the moment before enjoyment, right? Yes, sure.

Not the enjoyment, but the moment before the enjoyment. Right, because it's, yeah, there's the piece that you're about to have the enjoyment, which is just, you know, but it's not, it's not ending, whatever. This is a, you know, a theme for me, right? But, so I think it was, it was the smell of the fresh book is the possibility of, you know, I'm going to take this book home and it's a new story, but it's one I like. I mean, I know I like this world. And so it's just, it's just the, is there another episode? Oh my God, there is.

We thought we were only behind one episode. Oh my God, we are behind two. Yes. Yeah, that's huge. It's a feeling of plenty. I feel like primarily it's like you're digging and you found a little berry and then another bush was exposed.

And you're just like, oh, I get to eat a little longer. Do you have a skill that no one knows about? Maybe stilting and a little bit of tightrope walking. Are you fucking kidding me? I know. Are you joking? Is that a punchline? You know, I went to circus camp for a couple of years, okay, and thrived in the sort of

gymnastics element. And I mean, stilt walking is not that hard. You see... Stilt walking is like that hard. You see, um, still walking is like those five foot stilts or so that are made of wood. Like just, um, yeah. Like three feet or three feet or something. Well, you're like, you're the stilt itself is like, whatever, like six and a half feet tall. Let's say my stilts that I had.

Yeah. Yeah. I did. I did this stilt at camp before, but I probably wasn't as good as you, but I did. I would walk around my house on them, okay? I would just sort of roll into the kitchen on them. I loved being on stilts. You had them? You actually literally had stilts? Yeah, because I was like so into them that it was like, you know, oh my God. That was like, similar to the smell.

Like I almost feel like I can smell the stilts. Like they were metal and they were bright blue. And the feeling of getting those into my own home as like a gift, whatever it was, like it was like, it was like, it was so exciting. But yeah, I love walking around on stilts. And I've often thought, so like so embarrassing, I think I like pitched that when I was like going on Fallon. The Tonight Show, yeah.

Yeah, like almost like, is there something with these stilts? It's like me trying to pitch my stilt skill around town yeah and everyone's saying like no thanks you know what I mean I always get the no thanks when I do talk shows whenever I pitch anything outside the norm they're always like no no we're good just tell your story and then we'll be done um the uh I feel like yeah you maybe could have stilts in your next show where you walk around on stilts. Because to me, if you're legitimately good at it, then I would say that's for sure. Are you serious, Mike? Yeah, I'm totally serious.

I mean, yeah. No, I got to think about it. I've also... Well, because think about it. I mean, it's like if I've also... Think about it. If you're indeed very good at it, the visual element of that alone will be completely satisfying for the audience, right?

And then, if it serves as a metaphor for the narrative, then it'll have some kind of payoff depending on where you put it in the show. And of course it's a metaphor because it's like you're boosting yourself up and you're not actually that tall

and that's not how you walk and it's aspirational there's like a million different things it could symbolize what couldn't it be I see meaning in this Dilt journey already I could certainly if I had to build the show.

You know, what's next for Novak? Do you have any memorable neighbors from growing up? Oh boy, do I have a story for you. Do you really? Yeah, this is, so the most memorable neighbor experience I ever had was playing with this girl next door. And she was doing a game. I was very anxious as a kid about physical danger. I was just very aware and thought everyone was sort of fools around me for not recognizing how close, how thin the veil is between this side and the other.

And she was doing this thing where she would put in the code. By the way, Mike, it's thinner this time of year. Oh, I know. Oh, I know. She would do this thing where she'd type in the garage code, which would make the garage door lift. She'd grab onto the bottom of the garage and let it lift her off the ground a couple feet

and then jump off, right? Oh, yeah. That's risky. Yeah. And I was like, I'm just not doing it. Even though, yes, you can let go right away. It's not like you're getting it sucked up into the garage. It's just like, I'm not messing with that. Okay. And she did it a couple times and, you know, trying to go a little higher and higher. Plus your brain is going for a walk and imagining you being sucked into the thing. And, you know, my imagination was shortly thereafter rewarded, okay? When she just kept pushing it, wanting to get more air, right? And literally, she got eaten.

Oh, no. No, no, no. So, she was fine, okay, in in the end but it's the biggest trauma of my life so so she she went straight all the way in so her head disappears in there no okay no yeah okay kind of like her shoulders you still know her no but it's like a celebrity it's like a celebrity to me oh i know you, you know the girl who got sucked into the garage thing? No, I mean, the fact that this happened to me, I mean, so, so. By the way, it didn't, to be clear, it didn't happen to you.

Oh, my God. It did, though. It did. No, and yet, I believe it did. It so didn't happen to you. No, but are you ready? It did, okay? Because much like Mark Twain, okay?

Mark Twain, I think. Yes, of course, of course. He said that thing about, like, you know, the worst things in his life, the worst things that's happened to his life never happened to him or whatever. Of course, yeah. And feel free to compare yourself to Mark Twain. I mean, this is... Always.

Anything goes. Yeah, I experienced it more than her because she went into primal animal terror, you know? Sure. Okay? Probably shrieked or shouted so so i see feet dangling i hear blood curdling as it's called okay screams oh my gosh and and it's like it's like you know the loud garage noise and i don't know the code oh no gosh okay not that the code could even help me really because you know this story gets worse and worse.

Yeah. So I run into. So where is she at this point? Feet dangling, machine noises. Okay. Screams. Feet dangling. Okay.

She's up in the air. She's like 10 feet in the air. Oh, she's in the air. Yeah. Wow. I mean, I guess. Yeah. Yeah.

And I mean, and so I don't know what to do but get help. So I run. I bang on the door into the kitchen, right? In the garage into the kitchen kind of thing. The mother opens the door. I say, you know, I'll protect your name. You know, whatever. Janie's stuck in the garage.

Yeah, yeah. Janie's stuck in the garage. Okay. Okay, okay, pointing. The mother runs out and this is, I think, very funny. Types in the code to bring down the garage, okay?

Yeah. Which I think is bold because... Who knows what'll happen? It's kind of like when you knife... I think you might be raked through. Right, when you knife someone, the scariest thing is pulling the knife out.

So if someone is eaten by the garage, perhaps the scariest thing is pulling the person out of the garage's belly. Completely. Like, are you ready to send them back through the teeth, essentially? Yes. Fearless mother. That seemed bold. Fearless.

Fearless. And so anyway, she comes down. She rushes her in. Ben, get ice! Okay? Ben, get ice. Okay? Yeah.

Ben gets ice, the brother. And then they get into the car. Now, like, I don't remember visually seeing this or what, but it was like there was blood. Okay? Yeah. Nose slash face blood, whatever. Okay? Ben, get ice.

And then they get in the car, zip off to the hospital, And it's like, Ben, walk Jackie home. Okay. Okay. So then Ben's walking me up the street and he says, um, you know, Janie's probably going to have to get plastic surgery. Oh my gosh. What? Okay. What? He's like, you know, you know what plastic surgery, I mean, this is five minutes after Okay. Okay. He's like, he's like, you know what plastic surgery, like, you know, it's just, that's, you know, like, you know what that is. And I'm like, no, not really. Like whatever. And he's like, you ever see Michael Jackson? Yeah. Okay. That's, that would be your example in that period of time. This is the 90s probably. Yeah. It was pure. And then walks me up to the house. He stays at our house,

like while they're at the hospital. And then they come back and they're like picking up Ben. And they're like, yeah, like she's like, it was just like all she had was like basically a nosebleed, you know, it looked bad. Yeah. Yeah. Like maybe some, you know, whatever. And then I was really anxious about seeing her at the bus stop.

You know, I was mad at her essentially for doing this. Cause I thought it was scary and I wasn't participating and like mad, you know, and it was like, I remember like my mom, like, well, you did the exact right thing. You did the absolutely right thing. You know, like you ran for help, like whatever. And it's, you know, it's a thing for anxious people where the thing happens and it's rewarded. You've been about this, right? Yeah. One of my first bits in sleepwalk with me is I had cancer when I was 19.

And the worst thing that can happen to a hypochondriac is that you get cancer because you're like, see, I told you. Remember when I thought I had rickets? I was probably right about that too. There's going to be a lot of changes around here. See, brilliant. See, this is something you do so well that you utilize in both a punchline and a tag, okay, that I never remember to do and need to remember to do. And I'm assuming you don't mind me going into this in an analytical way.

Sure. It's like you're so good at pulling the phrase that's a recognizable, kind of like colloquial phrase to give meaning to the punchline you just said. It's huge. It's really effective. So there's going to be changes around here. Applied there like completely illuminates and delights me so massively there.

You know what another one you did is? What? Yeah. I was going to say like, I think that sometimes, so just to bring people into this, if they don't think in terms of this, is like so much of jokes are like, the setup is the thing that's true.

The punchline is the thing that's like the right turn that you don't see coming, but it's surprising, but inevitable. And often that's just what a joke is. I was an altar boy as a kid. And the answer is no, I wasn't. I think because they knew I was a talker, you know? And then the tag is like, if you think he's this bad at lighting candles, that's the tag. But that's like an example of like set up punch. And then a lot of times tags are like the lines that are after that, that build out the metaphor of the whole thing. Yeah.

It's like, um, well, the classic, can I just, I know I've, we've said this before, but the classic,

you know, cause you always have encouraged me like to add tags. I feel like you're huge on like seeing where comedians are. I'm just, I'm obsessed with leaving money. Yeah. I'm obsessed with tags leaving money. Yeah. And you, you've said to me, like, you're leaving money on the table. That's how you refer to it by not having tags or leave money on the table. You always said like, you've done the hard work. You did the really hard work, which was the original swerve from, you know, the setup to the punchline. That's the hardest part. Right. And, and then the tags in

theory are easy. And the tag oftentimes, and we talk about this on the hardest part, right? And then the tags in theory are easy. And the tag oftentimes, and we talk about this on the show sometimes, but it's like, is the tag is what allows people who didn't get the punchline, it gives them time to enter the metaphor with the rest of the audience. Yes. It's not the punchline as as one brief like sliver appears that you can slip through once and if you're no that's huge and but then every now and then every now and then like in your show and get on your knees like a lot of times you'll have you'll have tags where i'm like you were saying this about the cancer joke is like you're enjoying the tags in some ways more than the punchline which is my experience of jokes a lot of times too totally and and you know it's actually comforting to hear you say that the tag can be like another way into the punchline for those who the first one didn't

get in because i feel like um the way sometimes that my like like my punchline or the place where you're gonna laugh like almost does require this spread of tags that are like, I have to give you seven different ways into the idea. And sometimes like the plethora of them all together, you know, like points you in the direction of what I'm trying to say. Yeah. And that's like, you know, theoretically that is like, that's the opposite of a punchline, right? A punchline is supposed to punch like with a sudden revelation of the meaning. And I, like, do this thing sometimes where I'm like, sorry, guys, it's going to take a minute for you to get your way around. Like, I have to circle, right?

Yeah. But I do it, you know, quick enough. Yeah, that's the charm of what you do. Yeah, and it's like, but the tag thing. So the thing I was going to say that was so illuminating to me and why you're like, you're leaving money on the table. It's like, and Chris, you know, does this, my boyfriend does this as well, where it's like, we feel the satisfaction usually at the initial punchline. And so like writing the tags almost feels like just like, well, we already, you already did the thing, you know? It's over. It's like, I figured I cracked the code, you know, now why am I running the code over and over again

for you? Right. And like what you said originally, the metaphor that I loved was like a joke, you know, a joke, you have your setup, you're on earth. Right. And, um, and then the punchline takes you to a new planet, Mars, you know, the punchline, the joke itself, the core joke is a rocket ship that takes you to a new planet. You're doing the hard work. You've building the rocket ship of this joke. You're taking them to a new planet. It's time to hard work. You're building the rocket ship of this joke. You're taking them to a new planet. It's time to show them the wildlife. Yeah, show them the vegetation, show them the water, show them the wildlife. Take them around.

Yeah, yeah, because you're already there. Drive the car around. Stepping away from my conversation with the great Jacqueline Novak to send a shout out to one of our sponsors, Neon Film. So Neon Film is one of my favorite film companies. Last year, they had Parasite. They had Honeyland. These are movies that I'm obsessed with. The movie that they have out right now is called Totally Under Control. It is a documentary film about the response to COVID by the U.S. government. It is shocking, but it is essential. It is a really important film. It's a beautifully made film. It's extraordinary. It's on Apple TV and Amazon. It was filmed in secret for the last five months. It's actually the kind of thing that you should consider sending to your uncle or your aunt or your grandparents or your parents, because I really think it's got a really important message, especially as we go into the election.

Again, it's called Totally Under Control Neon Films. And now back to the show. Can I start a bit? Totally. I took an Uber last year and my driver hit a lady. But it's funny because she lived, she was walking, we were in a car, and she was crossing the street and he hit her. And the first thing I thought was, one star.

I mean, I do not condone this level of driving. But the driver immediately looked back at me and goes, you saw that wasn't my fault, right? No. And yeah, and I didn't even half nod. I quarter nodded. Like when you're at the dentist and he goes, tilt your head just an inch.

That's how willing I was to be this man's alibi. And I was actually on the phone when it happened. And hitting a lady with your car is the ultimate I have to call you back. No one's going to be like, wait, one more thing. I'm thinking of getting frosted tips. By the way, that's a good example of instead of punch tag, it's like, I think the punch tag actually is,

I have to call it, is the ultimate, I have to call you back, and then the tag is frosted tips, which is sort of like, it's take it or leave it. But anyway. Well, and replaceable potentially, right? Like a tag, you can sub in potentially right like a tag it could be anything

literally be anything like that's exactly someone would after the show right like comedians like comedians will offer tags you know like to each other because there's an understanding that it's not the essential joke right it's like it's not like they're trying to get in and and and mess with the thing that was like, that was like the hard work you did. Like, I always think of it as like, you know, cause I often like talk about like notions and, and when I don't want to call something a joke, like, cause I'm like, I don't know if it's really passing the joke test. I'm like, but that's a notion. It's like the hard work of it is like, is the, like, is that initial insight? It's just, I don't know, just like intrigued by it. Anyway, go on. So, so he wanted me to be the alibi. But I was thinking about like, I wasn't sure if it was his

fault or not, you know, like, because the walker and he and the walker and the driver both sort of had the right of way because it was like, the walker had like the blinking man signal. Oh, damn. You know, and then I was like, I was thinking about the city planner who created that intersection that was like from the road onto the Brooklyn Bridge. And it's like, he's like, all right, so we're going to have the walking man. That means you can walk. And then the hand. And that means don't walk.

And then blinking man means nobody knows. And that's what it is. And then blinking man means nobody knows. And that's what it is, is blinking man. The older I get, the more I realize that all of life is just blinking man. Like someone might die all the time. Like blinking man is your life flashing before your eyes, literally. Genius. Sorry, it's huge. Blinking man's Sorry, it's huge. It's huge.

Blinking Man's cousin is Burning Man. Blinking Man is like, maybe someday I could have a festival in the desert like my cousin with a bunch of pedestrians in suits walking to Panera. No, Mike. It's silly. And then. No. Hold on. Can I get it?

This is three bits. Three bits bunched together and then we'll break apart the whole thing. Does that seem good? Thank you, thank you. It's all about death, ultimately. I get excited, yeah. All right. But I feel like New York,

and you lived in New York for many years, like New York is wild. Like it feels dangerous. Like I remember one time I saw a guy riding a bike and smoking a cigarette at the same time, and I just thought, that is living. And then I was thinking about living. And I was like,

living is just doing anything where you'll probably die, but then you live like, Oh wow. And I think the key is that there's no G at the end of living. Cause the, the no G is what makes it dangerous. For some reason, it's a lack of G that creates risk.

Like that guy's living, you know, she's eating. He's drinking. That Uber driver's driving. And to be clear, right now, I'm joking. No, Mike. So stupid.

I mean, honestly, it crosses the line into stupidity. But I think that's the bunch. I enjoy when you cross the line into stupidity. So it goes Uber. Okay, sorry.

It goes Uber to blinking man to live in. If the set list had three bullet points, that's what it would be. So we can break those apart. So I just want to drop in right now on the blinking guy for a second. I'm like, wait, let me stay inside the metaphor a little bit. Sure. Because that's my favorite thing to do is walk around inside the metaphor. Sure.

And see what lines up, right? So it's like the thing that I was thinking, I was like, okay, first of all, cause I was like, wait, what is the blinking man in truth? I was like, and like, or what is its intent? Right. And I feel like the blinking man's intent originally by that guy, just not being amusing, just like getting into it is, well, what happens? Like it has to change and there's people already out there. Right. Wait, what do you, can you describe that? Wait. So blinking, the blinking sign comes on as a warning that the hand is coming. Right. Yes. Yes. Yes. Right. And so the blinking man is a signal to, if you're, if you're on the crosswalk still, I mean, if you're

on the sidewalk still, the blinking man is, Hey, you might want, you know, you might want to hold off. Right. Yeah. Cause it's not, we're no, absolutely. We're no longer in walk. We're headed towards not walk. And then the blinking man to someone in the street is, you might want to hurry it up because it's over soon. No, no. And actually, my brother Joe pointed out that the new tweak on that sign is the countdown timer,

which basically means in this many seconds, you will die. 20, 19, 18, you're going to die. You know, like, which is probably worth including as well. Is it any better? Well, it's like, no, no, it is worth working in. And this is the thing where it's like, where do you leave, like, where do you stop with the metaphor? Like, sometimes, like, you keep going,

and then you find where it no longer fits, right? Agreed. So it's like, so I just like I'm walking through it. So I'm like, so if you're like for you, the walking man is the truth of life. The blinking man. The blinking man. Right. I'm sorry.

The blinking man. Or by the way, or by the way, Mabel Lewis, who works on this show, pointed out. Yeah. She always thinks of it as the blinking hand, which both of them exist. I look this up. They do. The blinking man and the blinking hand are both signals of caution, essentially.

That's so interesting. I can't picture the blinking hand. One is walk. I wonder if that's city-based. One is walk. One is don't walk. The third one is be careful, basically. But in my joke, it's like nobody knows.

No, and the nobody knows is like yeah is the joke right because it's the leak yeah yeah yeah i think right as you're explaining and i'm going back for a second to like wait what is it it's like so what are you between also i'm just thinking if life if if if life is like is existence before the blinking man essentially right yeah in the shadow of the blinking man or whatever. Sure, sure. Like, what's one side of the street and what's the other? Oh, that's interesting.

Yeah. Well, one side of the street is your present, and the other side of the street is your future, or one's your past and one's your future. Right. And then in the middle of the road is the present, I suppose. Yeah. I mean, one thing thing the other thing about like you're saying

like the character is the city planner kind of thing who basically decided at a certain point like we're gonna lose some people

okay that's huge do you think that's huge like yeah I mean that sentence like yes look anyway he's like

he's like look I'm just a pragmatist we're gonna lose some people. That's huge. But all we're trying to do is lose the least amount of people as possible. I think we do Blinking Man. This is the same conversation. I love it so much.

And by the way, I love when you like embody those characters. Again, when you do that thing with colloquial expressions, it's always like so funny to me because for some reason it reveals a part of you that's almost surprising. Like it's a little different than your, just like primary persona. Cause it almost, it always reveals to me like that you're listening.

Like it's almost like a weird business side of you or something. Okay. It's like, it's like suddenly I can drop you into like a scenario where you're saying that. I don't know. It's huge. No, no. I understand what you're saying. You, the same thing is true when I watch you perform is when you go into a voice, it's a tell that that voice existed somewhere in your past. Oh my God. Yes. Mike. Brilliant. Brilliant.

Well, it's like, right, right, right, right, right. And it's a tell in a right right and it's a tell in a good way it's a telling a good way because you're right you're revealing a part of yourself you know it's like i think it's jodie foster years ago was like very private about her personal life and she said if you want to know about my personal life just watch my movies it's all in it's all in the character somewhere you know that's i love that that's That'll tell you more about me than what I'd say in an interview. Right. Oh, that's good. That's a good line. It's like, yeah, I'm putting it all out there for you, like people. It's like, I gave it. It's a very satisfying inversion that I do think is true. But I appreciate the note that embodying the city architect is helpful for you in terms of like sort of getting there comedically

no it's huge and also um you're saying we're gonna lose some people we're gonna lose some people funny because it's it's i never think from that perspective and i feel like hey look i look look we're gonna lose some people like he's that like he's that guy deterrent i don't like you know what i almost look i don't know what to tell you we're gonna lose some people so we're gonna have the walk you got the don't walk and then you got the blinking man i mean i i can never decide if it's funnier okay like because you hear that guy and that character becomes enriched and it's funny but then i'm like but then there's something also about almost just the mike berbiglia version of that guy and that character becomes enriched and it's funny but then i'm like but then there's something also about almost just the mike berbiglia version of that guy right right that's really

funny too giving it last giving it last you yeah that you just being like um like because it sounds like you well you know my director my director seth barris who works on the show too always says whenever he coaches me to do a part in a movie or TV or audition for something, if it has an accent, like if it has like an Irish accent, he'll always, I'll do it and it'll be like, you know, like, so I was driving in an Uber and I hit a lady. And he'll be like, so do that, but like a tenth of that. That's incredible. And then I'll be like, I was in an Uber and I hit a lady. And he's like, oh yeah, it's more like that. It's more like that. That's incredible. And then I'll be like, I was in an Uber and I hit a lady.

And he's like, oh yeah, it's more like that. It's more like that. Well, it's like when you hear, I find it so hard to do accents and stuff without, I'd have to go into deep training because it's like you're really playing the accent. Your motivation is the accent.

That's the danger. We all know actors who are like, a little too much accent, a little not enough acting. The accent is the character. Yeah. And the accent is like, like the motivation is like,

like you feel them like, like, like literally their motivation is to like lean into the R. You know what I mean? Like that's, what's pouring out of their soul is like, is like the half of which they're leaning into the R. It's what I mean? Like, that's what's pouring out of their soul. It's like, the half of which they're leaning into the R. It's like, ridiculous. By the way, you know,

like, I would, like, buy a book on acting and read it on the way to an audition. Literally. Like, as though I can quickly learn, as though I can quickly learn in the thing. Well, Seth, by the way, the best acting book I've ever read is Seth Barish's book. Yeah? Yeah, it's phenomenal. Oh, my God. If people want a good acting book, it's like, you know, people, very well-known actors swear by this book.

Tony Hale, Anne Hathaway, like many others. Like, Paul Giamatti. Like, it's really great. It's really great. I'll send it to you. You know, I think it's sort of funny because I've been thinking a lot about working it out, and I know that you love to bounce bits. And I've almost realized that I don't like bouncing bits myself. I think it's almost the same danger as the imagining laughter. Whatever. I was thinking

it would be funny if I were saying, I'm not bouncing a bit. As you know, Mike, I only agreed to come on this podcast if I could just bounce your bits off me. I've come to realize my act is blinking man enough. It's fragile enough. That's okay. Despite it being a classic sort of stand up, you know. Yeah. Hey, can I run something by you? Okay. And then you, and you're huge on it. By the way, that's a good, that's a good character for you. You just heard in my voice.

Yes, I did. Me in a club somewhere. Yes, I did. You saw a scene of me receiving it. And that's like so funny because it's like yeah yeah so it's like it's like hey i was in value and it i realized i was i was trying to figure this out in a long car drive with chris like i was like why don't i like bouncing bits and i was like because i think what it is is my quote half-baked bit is shows no promise almost right okay they

inherently show no promise but but but but the fact that they show no promise is actually a sign that I'm onto something. Okay? Because my favorite bits or the things that I'm really drawn to doing are when I sort of like catch a glimpse, almost like a mystical glimpse of the way that something is,

but the fact that it's absurd. No, I understand. That makes perfect sense to me. And have you ever said a bit, and I feel like maybe this isn't the case for you because you are effective with this. I feel like I'll say, if I try to say a piece of the bit, while it's still in the kind of wave versus particle, okay, it's still realm of the cloud of possibility. Sure, sure, sure. The other person reflects something back to you. They collapse it down to- 100%, 100%. Something specific. And I've learned to be able to go back

to the cloud of possibility from that. But it can be like the optical illusion, the gestalt or whatever, where now you see the bunny and you can't see the fish anymore. So you have something potentially, usually better, okay? Because I come at you with something very not there, but it's because I have like a little perception out of the corner of my eye of something I want to get to,

you know, someone serves back to me something inarguably better cause it's ready to go. And now there's a simulacrum of something that is too close, like too, too close to the, the thing I can't quite see yet. And it blocks it out. I a hundred percent get that. And I understand that about also your style and your process. Like it's totally baked in. Can I run two bits by you really quickly and then we'll go to the working it out for a cause? Please. So it's amazing how much we transform from about fourth grade until eighth grade. Like I have this memory of being at recess at St. Mary's school in fourth grade. And, and this girl in my class, Maria Bononi was like ringing the bell for recess, like the hand

bell, you know? And I thought, that's cool. She gets to ring that bell. It'd be amazing to ring a bell like that. And then in eighth grade, Maria Bononi had sex. And I thought, wow, Maria Bononi had sex. And I thought, wow, she's come a long way. I still haven't rung the bell. No. Oh, wow. Goddamn, Mike.

It's devastating. It's just two memories merged together. It's actually a lot like the slow round as a joke because it's like two slow round memories merged together to form the punchline. The punchline being, I still haven't rung the bell. Well, no, no. First of all, I love this method, okay? Because I feel like if you pluck any two memories inherently, okay, out of your semi-conscious, you know, whatever.

It's like there is some thread. And like by putting them together together like a constellation must form between them you know what i mean yeah i think that's a great point to be a piece of information or a notion you hadn't thought of so it's like i hear those two things and the brain is like what is that and it's like oh shit and it's like okay well on one level just the sheer horror of others you know the realization of of being not only behind but at a at a clip where you are not catching up you know what i mean like yes yes where there is no way behind and and and recognizing like what you know it that is a like just deep and profound kind of like

i'm excited about that you know actually process wise it's a uh it was a good piece of process because I was merging the memories today. Yeah. And I told Seth the part about like, oh, you know, like she had sex, you know. And I thought, wow, like she's come a long way. And then Seth just goes, his only note for this. And it was a great note. He just goes, I like that. Just maybe like something else. Like literally that's the only note. Maybe maybe like something else. Like literally that's the only note.

Maybe just like something else. That's so funny. And then I'm like, I still haven't rung the bell. Oh, wow. And it was just like immediately I was like, oh, yeah, that's the joke. That's actually literally why we're here in the damn first place. Yes, and I have even an ad on there. Please, please. Or a cut even. I almost think she comes

a long way as a distraction. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe, maybe it's too much. Because it's almost like, I still haven't rung the bell. That's right. That's, that's like clean. It actually potentially tips the hand to where the joke is going. And it almost feels like, and maybe this, you know, this is just another thing, but it's like a little bit, you know, you commenting on like the sexuality of like, or like the fastness of, you know. The girl in my class or whatever. Yeah, it distracts almost a little bit.

Okay, and then I have one more. And it's less about her coming a long way. I think that's great. That's a great note. I struck that. I literally, in my document, this is sort of how I work. I struck, she's come a long way, and then I put it in red. So I make a note for

myself. When you can fix something or unleash it through a mere strikethrough, God, is that a good feeling? Oh, it's euphoric. Oh, it's euphoric. Okay, the last joke I have is nothing is as it seems in the pandemic. I talked to my friend a few weeks ago, and he was like, I'm having a good pandemic. I'm getting a lot done. And a week later, he was like i'm having a good pandemic i'm getting a lot done and a week later he was like we're getting divorced and a week after that he was like i murdered my mother for reasons you do not need to understand at this time but i have citizenship in ireland i leave in the morning but i will still be at our zoom pottery class on tuesday Oh, wow. I've rented an Airbnb in Dingle. There's no breakfast but great Wi-Fi.

See, that's interesting because you are able to tangent enough into a place where then you're like filling in the scenery. Well, it was funny because process-wise today, that was something I bounced off my brother Joe. And the first version of it was nothing is as it seems.

I talked to my friend. I was like, I'm having a good pandemic. I'm getting a lot done. A week later, he was like, we're getting divorced. A week after that, he was like, I ate my grandmother. And there was something about it that was like, it's funny. It's cute. Like I ate my grandmother. But you're not going hard enough. No, you know what it is? It's like, it's like, I've been doing a couple outdoor shows lately and actually, I think I have a couple more

coming up and then we're done for the winter. But it's this, it's having a good pandemic, getting a lot done, week later, we're getting divorced,

laugh. And then a week later, like, I ate my grandmother and it's laugh, but it's laugh down by 20% from the previous laugh. And so as a result, you have to cut it. This is the balance of the diminishing returns of tags, right?

And the danger of the tags. Sorry about this, Chris was meant to say this earlier, but he's like, you just got to be careful you don't get greedy. Yeah, yeah, I get that. You can't get greedy with the tags. Because I'm like, yeah, but you don't want to leave money on the table. Mike says you don't want to leave money on the table. He's like, what did he say?

He said, leave a little money on the table. I love that. Nice, it's a tip. I love that. Good tip. Leave some money on the table. By the way, Chris Laker is a wonderful comic and people should check him out he's so good he's working on a show it'll be really

yeah we're having a good time good pandemic really productive I'm having a great pandemic Chris is having a great pandemic he's getting a lot done we're getting divorced I've murdered my mother I'll be in Dingle.

Okay. So the final thing is working it out for a cause. Is there a nonprofit you know of that's doing a good job right now that you want to shine a light on and I will contribute to them? Yeah. So this is, I found this via Rachel Cargill. This is her foundation, Loveland Foundation Therapy Fund. I'm just going to read you how they describe it because I think it's really clear. Let's see. We're aiming to raise $600,000 in order to offer over 5,000 hours of free therapy sessions for black women and girls to go to therapy.

And they're talking about the cost of therapy and that even with insurance, the prevalent and ingrained stigma surrounding mental health in many communities and the fact that the vast majority of therapists in this country are white is often difficult for black women and girls to access therapy when they need it. That's such a smart idea for a nonprofit. Yeah, it's major. And I feel like, you know, obviously I've talked about like depression and stuff like that in my book. And so I'm into this big time. It's the therapy fund within the Loveland Foundation. They're doing a lot of stuff, and Rachel Cargill's Instagram is an amazing follow.

I am really excited to learn more about that organization. I think that's phenomenal. I'll contribute. I'll link in the show notes. Jacqueline, thanks for being my friend. And all these years. You too, Mike. It's always such a pleasure. It's the best.

I hope we can go on tour together again someday, sooner than later. And I can't wait for Get On Your Knees to be as comedy special people can see. And I can't wait for your next book and your next show because everything you do, I think is such a,

such a damn joy. Oh, thanks Mike. I, uh, yeah, I love coming. I love coming on the,

uh, working it out. I'm going to, I'm going to demand you return. I think you might be the first repeat guest. Oh, that would be huge for me. Cause you know,

I, I go long. Okay. I go long. I know. All right. Fantastic. And I go long. Oh, I know. I go long. I know. All right. Fantastic. Next time I'll coax some bits out of you, even though you're an anti-bit sharing policy.

Fantastic. And also, I think you being on stilts is great. And I think that the garage story is going to be phenomenal. Yes. Long term. You worked it out a little bit for me anyway, so. All right. I'll see you next time, Jack.

All right. Take care. Working it out, because it's not done. We're working it out, because there's no hope. That's another episode of Working It Out. Jacqueline Novak, wow. She is such a fascinating person. Look out for what will be her forthcoming comedy special,

Get on Your Knees. Follow her on Instagram at Jack Nove, on Twitter at Jacqueline Novak. Our producers of Working It Out are myself, along with Peter Salamone and Joseph Birbiglia, consulting producer Seth Barish, sound mix by Kate Balinski, assistant editor Mabel Lewis.

Thanks to my consigliere, Mike Berkowitz, as well as Marissa Hurwitz. Special thanks to Jack Antonoff for our music. As always, a special thanks to my wife, Jay Hopestein. Our new book, The New One, is at your local bookstore, which you should support your local bookstores. Let's keep these bookstores alive. You can get it curbside, or you can get a signed copy

on the berbiggs.com merch site. As always, a special thanks to my daughter, Una, who created this radio fort. Once again, go to drinkspindrift.com. Use the promo code for Biggs25. And the film Totally Under Control, which is on Apple and Amazon. That is a must-see film.

Thanks most of all to you who have listened. Tell your friends, tell your enemies to vote early. Really, almost everywhere you can vote early. And in the meantime, we're working it out!