Mike Birbiglia's Working It Out - 208. Kevin Fredericks: How To Make A Comedy Show About Grief

Episode Date: April 6, 2026

Lin-Manuel Miranda called Mike up a few months ago to say he wanted Mike to meet comedian and author Kevin Fredericks. This week, Mike sits down with him for the first time and the two of them break open Kevin’s new solo show “Grief Sucks,” which Kevin wrote about his brother’s death. The two discuss how to make the darkest topics funny, how being a comic is mostly about failing and then doing it again anyway, and what to do when you accidentely cry on stage. Plus, some thoughts about the Oreos you eat on the way to eat Oreos. Please consider donating to Storm DeBarge's non-profit work (CashApp: $bijan1996) Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

So my oldest son was terrible at basketball when he was young. And I mean just an embarrassment to black people bad. And one of my things is like, you've got to have a good jump shot. Otherwise, it looks like your dad wasn't in your life. Your jump shot is a reflection of me. Sure. That is the voice of the great Kevin Fredericks. This is a really interesting episode today.

It came about because Lynn Miranda, that one, that guy, he's been on the podcast before. That's his biggest credit, as far as I know. He called me and said, I love this guy, Kevin Frederick's. And he's a comedian, and he's looking to develop a solo show about grief. And I was wondering if I could connect you. So he connected us, and we talked on the phone a few times. I went to see his show the other night at Union Hall in process.

And then we had a great talk today. Kevin is a very prolific comic and author. He wrote two books. One is called Successful Failure, Lessons Learned Flat on My Face. The other, he co-authored with his wife, Melissa Fredericks. And it's called Marriage Be Hard, 12 conversations to keep you laughing, loving, and learning with your partner. We have a great chat today. I love what he's doing.

I feel like he's opening up about this really challenging thing. And we're just sort of getting to know each other in the podcast today. It's great. I want to mention something really fun, which is the audio of my show, the old man in the pool, is now on Spotify. You can listen to it in your car, put it on one of your playlists. I'm really proud of it,

Old Man in the Pool, which, by the way, while you're there, you could listen to Thank God for Jokes, my girlfriend's boyfriend, sleepwalk with me live, My Secret Republic Journal, and Two Drink Mike. There's a lot of albums on there.

Anyway, thanks also to everyone who's signed up for working at a premium on Apple Podcast. We've been doing a lot of different kinds of bonus episodes. We just dropped a brand new bonus episode on there where I'm prepping for a set at the comedy seller.

It's really fun. Subscribe on Apple Podcasts. It's the show behind the show behind the show on there. Berbilia familia. You can go on Apple Podcasts in the app, go to Working It Out, and then you click on premium subscriptions, $4.99 a month. You get no ads. You support the show, which is an independent production,

and you get bonus episodes. Also, are you in Los Angeles? I heard you were in Los Angeles. I'll be at Netflix as a Joke Festival, May 6th, At the Wilshire Ebell Theater, it's me and friends. Each doing a really good 20 or 30 minutes, probably. I have a good feeling about that show. I'm also doing a bunch of dates in support of John Mullaney, along with Fred Armisen.

We're going to be in Colorado Springs in May, as well as Eugene, Oregon, Bend, Oregon, and then in August we'll be in Moorhead, Minnesota. Get tickets for those at berbigs.com, and by the way, sign up for those text message alerts. That's a better way to get these things, because then it doesn't get. go to spam in your email. Just text per bigs to 911 444-7-1-5-0 to be the first to know. I love this conversation with Kevin Fredericks. We talk about failure, how to learn from your failures.

We talk about hecklers, marriage. It goes pretty deep. For people who do not know each other, I feel like it goes deep and I like Kevin a lot. I think he's hilarious. Enjoy my conversation with the great Kevin Fredericks. Shout out to Lynn for introducing me. No, I know. Yeah.

Miranda put us in touch. Miranda's been on the show before, and he obviously is a legend. And he put us in touch because he's a fan of yours. And then did you reach out to him and say, hey, I'm working on the show about grief. I lost my brother. And my wife was like, you need to find,

at first she was like, you need to find a writer. To like, if you're thinking of one man's show, you need to find a writer to help you right. So it's a good husband. She's often very right. Yeah. So I reached out to Lynn and I was like, yo, my wife, you know, and I didn't want to reach out to him because I'm very hesitant to ask for help in anyway. But I'm on a like closed mouth, don't get fed sort of thing.

So I asked him and he was like, I actually don't think you need a writer. I think you need two things, a director and to watch Mike Barbiglia. And I was like, okay. So I watched all four year specials and I watched your movie. And then I was like, I get it. I get why he suggests. to that. It was probably the best thing about this show was finding about you. That's amazing. And then we talked on the phone. Lynn called me and said, hey, we talked to CAV. We talked a

couple times. I had great, yeah, yeah, yeah. Great chat about it. And then I saw the show in progress last night at Union Hall is so moving. I mean, it's, it was, it's a hard topic. It's a hard topic. Oh, my God. It's really. And you go for it. And I really go for it. Like, when I was watching yours, you have hard topics, but you'll go in a place that you, it's way away from the topic and you'll come back. Yeah, yeah. I was like, okay, can I do this, but stay very close to the topic because I really wanted to go through it, you know, and I have like a list, my version of this is on my iPhone. Yeah. And I have just like everything about how grief sucks, everything about what's unfair. And then I just threw it all in there. So earlier in the show, I was, you know,

trying every single thing. And my wife was like, hey, man, it can't be this long. Yeah, yeah. You know? So as a comedian, you naturally, you're like, well, I don't know what works until you try it out.

Sure. Because I was trying what you suggested of like, well, I thought about, like, working it out at the clubs and stuff, but because the subject matter is so intense, I felt like it was really unfair to the audience and the comedians.

Yeah. To have a regular set that you hear, dating, whatever. And then I'm like, hey, man, my brother died, y'all. And then the next guy's got to come up or the next girl's got to come up. I was like, I feel like that's a little unfair

to them on just like a regular thing where you're seeing six comedians. Yeah. And I felt like it gave me a better shot to have more time to like set the stage. Yeah. So I just kind of went and did it all. Wow.

I just worked on it ahead of time a million times, which I'd never done before. I'd always worked it out on stage. Yeah. And so then, but then what? you did last night at Union Hall, is that in progress or is that done? It's still in progress. Okay.

I feel like pacing-wise, that was my best pacing show. I'm still taking huge chunks out, putting things in. Still, like the ending, I didn't even have anything close to an ending. Sometimes I just cried. Oh, my God. Yeah, you did like two shows ago. Yeah. Like maybe three shows, I think in Portland, I was crying so hard.

I just was like, thank you. And I walked off. And my brother-in-law, my tour manager was like, maybe you need to click away from the last video so you can kind of get your bearings a little bit. That's one of the things we talked about on the phone. You were like, what do you do when you cry? Yeah.

And I told you a thing that my director, Seth Ferrer, said to me, when I first cried on stage, 2008, when I did my first solo show, Sleepwalk with me, which is jumping through a second story window, sleepwalking and all this stuff. And I cried. And I said to say, said like, what should I do? He goes, well, that's what the theater is. Yeah. The theater is what

happens on that stage in that room that night. Yeah. And like last night you were crying and I was like, I was there for it. Yeah. I was like, I was choked up. I was, I was like, this is a gift. Right. Right. And I think one thing you told me that probably was the best advice in a sea of good advice. So thank you very much. Oh, of course. I appreciate for somebody you didn't even know, you took time. You poured into me. It was just like it was a godsend. But you were like, you should have at least four moments that you really allow yourself to not worry about the joke. Yeah.

Which was the first time I've ever, as a comedian, you're always the joke, the joke, the joke, the joke, the joke. You know, building up to the joke. Yeah. But in this show, it's not solely about the comedic aspect, even though it is. And, you know, once you gave me permission to cry. And that's kind of why I call it a one-man show versus a pure stand-up set. Yeah. usually at a stand-up show or my shows, you wouldn't expect to cry.

But I think with the subject matter, people understand. And often in the audience, people are crying too, or crying laughing, crying through tears, you know, or just really crying. So I think it's such a, as a comedian and as an artist and an actor, it allows you to really, I kind of say like go into the character, but the character is me. Yeah. I was curious when I was watching it, when you, had the impulse because your brother died in 2022 and I was curious when you started to feel like

I should talk about this on stage and and sort of was there like a why? So I first talked about it on stage I think less than two weeks after because I actually was at the beginning of a tour when he passed away. Yeah. And as you know as a working comedian like this is my job. Yeah, of course. And most people experience loss and then they take a few days off. They have to go back to work. Yeah. Whatever that is, my line of business is trying to make people laugh. Yeah.

But it also is how I process the actual world as well. So it was like one of the jokes in the show is the joke that I did about Nia Long. And I did it maybe less than two weeks after because I had show scheduled. I had comedians flying in, all that type of stuff. So and just can you say it just so that people understand what the context? Some of the things that you talk about in the show, I feel like your fan base is like way ahead of it. And I'm like trying to catch up.

I'm like, okay, what was that? What is that reference? Yeah. So the joke is, and this is the first joke I did. This is harsh and I'm sorry, Nia. Nia Long killed my brother. It's the joke. In real life, my brother had a heart attack.

And prior to that heart attack, we were having a regular conversation, me, him to my friends, Ken and aunt about the Celtics coach, Ime Udoka, had a scandal where he cheated on his wife. And in the moment we're realizing, well, isn't he married to Nia Long? And one of my friends was like, you know, we were like, that's crazy. Why are you cheating on Nia Long? Man, you married to Nia Long. Nealong is fine. Like, who did he cheat with was what we were talking about?

When my homeboys was like, my girls, I mean, Nia Long's cool, but my girl's finer than that. and me and my other homeboy just started, are you crazy? What are you talking about? She's not that fine. Like she's a regular girl, nice lady, but she's not finer than me along. And we're going for 10, 15 minutes.

And later on, my brother's wife calls me and it's like, your brother had a seizure. And I was like, what? I was just talking to him. And I scroll back up

and I realized he had never responded after the knee along thing. Yeah. Like he never said anything else. He's never text back. Yeah, yeah. After the knee along. So a few days after that, I told my brother, my homeboy, I was like, you know what it was, the heart attack.

It was you saying your girl was finer than near long. Yeah, yeah. And he was like, come on, man, I thought that too, but I felt so bad about that. So that's the first joke I took on stage. And people laughed. It was, it was great. But then I put it away. Yeah.

I literally did it one time. Yeah. And then when I went back on the road, I just did the set that I had already been working on. And I thought I would never be able to craft an hour. And honestly, I wasn't going to until I was talking to my wife. I was doing a show at a church because that's where I grew up. I started stand up in church. And a comedian did the joke I was just about to do.

And I was like, oh, dang, that was on my set list. And my wife was like, I've been meaning to tell you, like, you need to challenge yourself to do something new. Like, the only reason somebody's doing that joke is because you did that joke when you were like 16, 17. and she was around at that time. So she was like, I wanted you to challenge yourself to go hard. Like write something new. Push yourself. Even if it takes six, nine months, you don't have to go on the road.

Yeah. We're good. Like, push yourself to do something that nobody else is doing. Yeah. At first I was like, no. Like, that's hard. I don't want to start from absolute scratch. Yeah.

I could do like, I usually do 15, 20, something, you know, off in 30 minutes of brand of material. Yeah. But in the new hour, it's really. rarely like 60 minutes of brand new stuff because I want to know some stuff works. Yeah. But I had that and then another friend of mine was like he had noticed I've done videos on grief all throughout the process.

The funeral home, you know, all throughout grief over the years. And he was like, I notice every time you do a video on grief, it does really well. But more importantly, in the comments, people are like, yo, thank you. I've been meeting this. You're able to bring comedy to this in a way that I haven't seen. he was like, would you consider doing a whole hour on that? And like those two things, my wife and his suggestion kind of became the idea of like, can I do a whole new show on grief? So I took all the notes that I had in my phone, all the jokes that I had. I rewatched all the videos that I had.

And then I started to like put them in some sort of like order that I could memorize or build a show around. And then I was just like chewing on how to get there. I didn't know the segues or the older or anything like that. And then when I saw your shows, I was like, ah, here's how I can, like, put it together. And I think that's why it was like, godly divine timing. I was laughing last night when one of the first things you said, everyone said amen in the crowd. It's like, what just happened? What do you say?

I don't even remember what I said last night. You said, can I get an amen or anything? I think I said it last night. That was the first time I did that, though. That was cool. Yeah. I've never witnessed that at a comedy show. I was like, what is happening?

That's so funny because it happens so often at my shows. But I have a hugely, huge amount of my audience is black church people. Yeah. Because that's how I grew up and that's how I started. Because you started in churches and you've performed in churches. Yeah. Yeah. Do you, is your material ever too much for your own?

audience? I don't think so because I really I like started in churches but I honed my craft in comedy clubs. Yeah. And that was not church, not, you know, clean, just regular comedy club. People drunk, people, you know, sometimes fighting. Some people just came to the comedy show because there was a club after and they just hung out. Yeah, yeah. So I had to like cut my teeth in regular comedy settings through that time. It's an interesting thing. where you, when you're starting out, typically the gigs are harder. Right?

It's much harder. But it weirdly is fortuitous. Yes. Because you get better in places where it's really hard and you learn tricks like raising your voice or speeding up or, you know, getting aggressive with the crowd, but then going back to the bit, you know, all that kind of stuff. And it's kind of good in a way.

For sure. And it also kind of weeds out people who weren't meant to be comedians. I couldn't agree more. Because you're just like up there like, man, what the hell am I doing? Yeah, yeah. What is going on? There's definitely moments of what the hell am I doing. Yeah, you're just like having to navigate a head.

I mean, I remember I mishandled a heckler so bad because early on I was like almost a hometown favorite because I was from Tacoma. Yeah. I had like a friends in the audience, people from my church. Like, so one of my first time performing out of L.A. and not in the church, I got heckled and I had never been heckled before. So I was just like personally offended. Yeah.

And I was angry and I had no experience. So I was like, there was an older lady and I'm so sorry, ma'am, to you. I never got a chance to see you again. And I was just like, that's why you look like a dead wolf. Oh, God. And you look like my dead grandma. I was just like going.

And I remember Nate and BT Kinkley were backstage. They pulled me aside. They were like, hey, man. That's a little too much. That's like you never want to go at a heckler that hard. Your ideal preferred method is to get the crowd against them. Yeah. So you want to get the crowd on your side and the crowd will weed them out.

He was like, you can never take it that person. You didn't even have a joke. Right. You just yelled at that lady, she was a dead wolf. That's not, there's no comedy there. And I was like, well, she was like. Right. It's like the light is touch that actually will direct the audience to disapprove of the heckler.

You need the audience to shame them without losing your cool. It's such a weird kind of like village mentality. And it's not like, yeah, a village or a church or just any sort of people where you're like, we're like, okay, we need to get the energy on that person being the problem versus me being not good. Because if you mishandle it, then the audience directs it all at you. Oh, yeah. And it's that quick beat. So I was like, oh, okay.

So I just had to go back to Washington like, that did not go at all how I planned. But like you were saying, I think it's so important for comedians to go through all that. Because all of that is like something added to your toolkit. I think stand-up is one of the things you can't really cheat. You have to put the hours in to be really good because it's each of those scenarios that makes you good. And also the audiences don't lie. Right. Like when you're bombed, you're bombing.

The raming. The crowd wants to laugh. They do. And celebrity can't save you. No. Nothing can, because laughter is involuntary. I think it was Seinfeld who said, like, celebrity saves you for about two and a half minutes, three minutes.

And then they're like, okay, is this good or not? Five at the most. Yeah, five at the most. I remember once I bombed and I was well in my career. I was doing Keep Your Distance. During COVID, I was doing outside shows. And I was, so it was going well because we were performing to the crowd there. and then we would stream it live.

And this one particular show, we weren't streaming live. We were basically taped delaying it. And I made the mistake of performing to the camera crowd and not the crowd that was in front of me. And as I'm talking, I realize, oh, my God, I'm bombing. In front of only family and friends. And I'm like making eye contact. Yeah, yeah.

I remember Tony Baker, one of my close friends, great comedian, I made contact with him, eye contact with him, and he was just like, hey, man, I can't help you. This is not working. You're bombing. I look at my wife and she's just like, you know it's weird because you want like everyone who writes into the show or asked me for advice I'm sure ask you for advice um the biggest piece of advice is you have to do it and fail which is not

fun to give as advice even right it's so you just see this glazed look on people's face like wait what yeah you have to fail like a lot of times and fail epically and like still like I for sure You'll go to clubs all the time with new stuff and, oh, wow, that's not hitting at all. In my head, that was great. That's one of the worst feelings because I feel like stand-up is one of the only art forms where you really don't know if it works until you try. If you're a dancer or you're a musician, you know what a good note sounds like. You know what a good song sounds like. I think so. But a joke that it's all funny to us when we write it down.

But some stuff just does not relay well. and it's a hard thing to have to bury that joke that you had high hopes for that goes nowhere. Do you ever have a viral thing that you didn't see it coming? You kind of put it out because you thought it was a little bit funny and then it just caught.

Yeah. Like, what'd you have that with? It's so funny because it's the things that I care the least about and put the least of thought into. I did a joke about Oreos because my trainer was telling me, I was trying to lose weight for the million time, and my trainer was telling me,

You know, I was like, I can't eat anything. I can only eat celery and lettuce. And he was like, you can eat whatever you want. I was like, I can't eat Oreos. It's like, you can eat Oreos. Just eat two. Yeah. And I was like, what kind of sociopath eats two Oreos?

Like, nobody has the control. Like, I eat two Oreos on my way to the couch to really eat Oreo. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's my joke. As a preparation for Oreas. Those are travel Orioles. That's right. Those don't even count.

Like, I'm lucky if I can eat one sleeve of Oreos. Are you kidding me? Of course. You're going to eat Oreos, just eat Oreo. Yeah. So, I mean, I did that joke, and it was like millions of views. That's so funny. And it was like, it was like a throwaway.

It was like, yeah, doc, this is what I think about all the time. Right. This is like, this is literally my inner monologue. And like, yeah, caught. It was just a passing time joke to something else. Yeah, yeah. And that's the thing about the internet. You just never know what often relatability is more important than funny on the internet.

That's right. But even like the Frank Sinatra thing that you were talking about. With Delaney, yeah. Yeah, the fact that you didn't think that was funny. No, I know. I think it's funny. I don't know where to go with it. I'm just like, what is this exactly?

Fat pigs is where you go. You don't have to say. No, I know. There's something about that. Because people are not supposed to say those things. And celebrities nowadays wouldn't say that. Yeah, yeah. No, I know.

It's right. To give context to people who didn't listen to that episode with Malaney, it's basically, it's my aunt said to me once I go, you ever go see you live music show or anything like that? And she goes, I went to see Frank Sinatra when I was a teenager and we were walking out the door. And we were at the stage door and we're like, Frankie, Frankie, we love you. And he pushes us out of the way and goes, get out of the way, you fat pigs. He gets in the car and leaves.

And it's like so stupid. And I think it gets people's literally like Kimmel texted me about it and just goes, that's the funniest thing I've ever seen in your podcast. It's because they still loved him after her. still love him. I think that's what makes it funny. It's sadistic. Because you would expect nowadays, oh my God, I hate him. Yes. I'm going to call him out on Twitter and they were like, ah, no, we love him. We love Frankie. That's vintage Frankie. No, and it was funny because we were talking here in the office after that. It's like, what is it about that? That where could it go? And I think it's honestly that it's like,

that it's like we all have in relationships, how much can we get beat on by somebody? before we're like, wait, what? Exactly. Exactly. You're parents, your girlfriend, your friend, your white, you know, whoever it is. In that case, Frank Sinatra,

in that case, Frank Sinatra, there's almost nothing he can do to make them. Yeah, like, it is funny about how clips tell you, like you're saying, but the Oreos,

it's like, where's the relatability? And it's like, that's where it is, clearly. And I think that's how like how comedians nowadays will do the crowdwork to get you to come in. And they often have a totally different set. And they just like do some part of this to get you to come to the show. Yeah.

And I think that's the thing. Like I chopped up my whole show that time. And the Oreo clip was by and large the funniest thing that went viral. Yeah. The other thing was talking about my kid loving anime. And I actually did work on that joke. But these things were like. they're not. What was the anime thing? So my

oldest son was terrible at basketball when he was young. And I mean just an embarrassment to black people bad. And one of my things is like you've got to have a good jump shot otherwise it looks like your dad wasn't in your life. Your jump shot is a reflection of me. Sure. And I was at his game. This isn't about him. It's not about him at all.

It's about me. It's either I'm not a part of your life or I'm so not a part of your life that you're NBA level good. But if you're in the middle, then your dad just sucks at sports. That's right. It's almost like you can't even let him play basketball. It's better off for you to not touch the court than to have a terrible jump shot. So I used to tell this joke because when he was really young, he's not this bad anymore.

When he was young, he just loved basketball, but he was awful at it. And he was at a game and he shot a free throw. and his arms crossed like this. And he jumped. That's great. He jumped. Free throw. At a free throw.

Arms crossed. Jumped. Wow. And I was in the stands like, oh, my God. And we live in L.A., majority Hispanic people. So I'm the only black, he's the only black kid on the team. I'm the only black parent in the stands.

So I can feel all the parents and all the kids like, well, there's his dad. So. He stinks. He stinks. Clearly. He's awful. at basketball and he was also like an anime fan.

So I just merged those two worlds. Yeah. And I made the joke of like he's running down the court with anime arms. Like no, no, no, no, no, no. Like doing all that. He's powering up at the free throw line before a free throw.

So I just mix the two things into one and I did his actual free throws, which he actually did. I actually was recording it. And when he shot that, I just put my phone down because I was like, there's no way I'm posting him shooting like this. And he just like hit the backboard

and came straight back to him. It's just awful. Do people think of you as a quote-unquote Christian comic because sometimes you're at church is performing? I have this problem often. I don't consider myself a Christian comic. I consider myself a comedian who's a Christian. I purposely don't want to be considered a Christian comedian

because it's setting you up for material you would not be prepared to see if you see me, especially outside of a church. But some people do. But I think that's a, that implies that I'm only going to do jokes about church, which is not my case. Is that a thing? The Christian community means you just talk about church?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There are some people who just talk about church, church-related things only. 15 minutes to 45 minutes can all be on church over and over. What's the funniest thing about a black church that someone who doesn't go to one like me would think is funny? Oh. One of my favorite jokes, I had a pastor who was really young.

for a pastor. He was like late 30s. And he could preach about anything. He would preach like when the Boston Red Sox won the World Series after being cursed, he had an amazing message about like, God is breaking curses and now as a sports fan. I was like, this guy's the best. He's like amazing. So one of the jokes that I used to do, and I still can do a version of it anytime, is I can preach about anything. I can preach about the Lion King or Toy Story. And I can take just the just the plot of the movie and make you feel like you're in church. Yeah. So I would be like, you know, there was a, there was a toy in him and his, and his name was

Woody. And, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, now, Buzz joined the room. The toys were jealous of him. Because he didn't believe he was a toy like them. Oh, watch this, Mike. Listen, listen, watch this. He said, I am a space ranger. They said, no, you're a toy. He said, I am a space ranger. Now watch this, Mike. The other toys plotted to kill Buzz at Woody's behest. And when he was standing by the window, they kicked him out. Oh, my God. I hear you. Only Ghost. They kicked him out of the window. And what did he do, Mike? He hit the red button on his suit and activated the wing.

Oh, come on. Y'all don't hear me today, Mike. He activated because watch this. What is in you is what is already in you. And I want you to remember this, Mike, and you don't remember anything else. Even if you forget who you are, don't forget whose you are. Oh, come on. And I would do that for the Lion King. I would do that for Aladdin. Like, I could do it. I could watch. I could watch. a movie or something that happens. And I still do this on Instagram from time to time. And people will be like, man, that's amazing. But I got that from my pastor who did it for real. Yeah, for real. My first time of the Lion King, I did a whole Okunumatatat thing. The enemy wants to kill you because he knows who you're going to become. Oh, my God. Yeah. He knows the

king's already inside of you before you know you're the king. Oh, my God. Turn of your neighbor and say, I just can't wait to be king. But I used to also preach like this. Like I used to be a youth pastor. Oh, interesting. Yeah. And I were a youth pastor. actually a youth pastor for many years. You have the muscle. I have the muscle. And low-key stand-up and preaching is very similar skill set. I get that. It's so similar. You got to peak interest. And honestly, a lot of my favorite teachers are actually really funny and probably could do stand-up. But I used to, like, teens are not, they're like the worst audience. So you really got to grab them. So I would just listen to the music they're listening to and find messages

Kendrick Lamar, Drake songs, things like that. Or TV shows. movies, things that they knew. And that same skill set to keep their interests is the same skill set you need to have common. And that's why I'm really grateful for growing up in the church because it's like the black church was my conservatory. Yeah. For sketches, for performing.

I played instruments. You know, the same way you got to get the church up and get them excited is the same thing you got to do for a crowd. So it's been really helpful to grow up the way I did and pursue stand-up. When you were... So you wrote this book with your wife, Melissa. called Marriage Be Hard. Did you ever have a story

that the two of you remembered two different ways? Oh, yeah. Man. This happened, I believe, after we published the book, there was a moment in time where we were like on thin ice. Yeah. I wouldn't say we were going to get divorced,

but I feel like we were teetering towards something happening that we wouldn't be able to come back from safely. And this was during COVID, which I think a lot of marriages were harder during that time because we were all kind of unused to being around each other that much and felt kind of guilty for like, I kind of don't want to be around you. Sure. That feels bad to say, but we weren't around each other because of work and travel and all that stuff. So anyway, one night we were just, tension was really thick. We had a two-story house and I feel like we could fill it through the floors.

And at like two in the morning, she was like, I'm going to go to a hotel tonight. And she got in her car. I was upstairs. She was downstairs. She got in her car in the garage and was booking a hotel and was like waiting for the garage door to open and she was going to drive off. And I ran outside in our neighborhood in just my draws. And you know, I'm 270. My belly's hanging over the underwear.

I'm ashy. My feet are scraping the ground. And I like cried, begged. R&B video from the 90s yearned. And we stayed in the car to like four or five o'clock in the morning. And I was just like, I can't let you go. Yeah. Because I remember her parents got divorced and one of the things they both said

separately is I wish the other would have fought for me. Oh. And I remember being like, I don't want her to think I want her to leave. Yeah. If she's going to, I can't let her go. Yeah. To her, I'm being overdramatic. Her version of that story is like,

She was thinking about leaving. She really wasn't going to leave. She was just seen if I would come. And in my life, she was dry. Also my story, it's raining now. And I'm like, baby. Yeah, sure. It's an, I'm in music.

You're singing, sure. I'm singing now. Neighbors are peeking out of the windows. Sure. Every year the story gets a little bit bigger. But the truth is she was ready to take a break. And also she was going to the courtyard myriad. And I just felt like, if you're going to take a break from me, at least go to a respectable hotel.

Yeah, yeah, sure. You can't, go to court yards. Simi Valley. Yeah, we don't need a half kitchen. Come on. Yeah, yeah, sure. Residents in? Like, go to the Waldorf, at least tax me.

If you're going to leave Kevin on stage, you can't go to no double tree. It's funny that she admitted that she wanted you to fight for her. That's a thing. That's a thing. That's a thing. Sometimes people want you to have a little. I want to feel wanted. A little fight in you.

For the love. Yes. You want to feel like... What is that? I think in some maybe twisted way, we need to feel desired, even if we need to create the scenario where you should not be desired.

Like in theory, if you say I'm leaving you, I should let you go and be an independent woman. But what you really want is the... We all want the rom-com running to the plane, meeting you at the gate, train station. Like Hollywood has infiltrated our minds, and we want to know that you won't let me go. I think that's part of it.

I think also part of it is just like, when you feel bad about yourself, you feel like you're not fighting for yourself. You're like, well, maybe this person will fight for me. I like that. That kind of energizes you. I agree. Like, if I don't have enough fight,

will you fight for me and give me, you know. Someone's got a fight. You lend me your fight for the day because I don't got it. And maybe I'm going to push you to the edge where you got to make a choice. I feel like you could talk about that on stage.

I think that's a good story. And that's a joke I've never even tried. Yeah, I think that's a fun story because it is, I'm obsessed with this. I talk about this on stage a lot. I'm obsessed with this idea of in relationships, you have two people witnessing, identical events and remembering them two very different ways.

Oh, it happens all the time. I have even better one. I had hired a security guard because there was a period of time where comedians were getting attacked on stage. Yeah, I remember that. I was just like, Dave Chappelle had happened to. Dave Chappelle, I think Gary Owen, DC Young Fly, all. Chris Rock.

Yeah. We don't need to explore that, but sure. And I'm not much of a fighter. Yeah. So I'm like, if somebody attacks me on stage, they might win. Of course. So I was like, maybe I'm going to get a security guard because I don't want this to happen. So I hired this security guard.

He was humongous. Samoan dude, he was like 6'6, 350 pounds plus. He'd like a bear's hands. Like, he could just grab a salmon out of a stream and, like, knock a tree over. And I remember I knew how scary he was when I was like, hey, man, have you ever been in a fight when we're, like, kind of doing the interview? process and he looked me dead in my eye. He was like, Kev, I hate when I have to hurt people. It makes me feel so bad to have to hurt people. And I was like, you're higher. You're hired.

Because if you don't want to do the damage you do, you probably are really inflicting some pain. Sure. So my wife had come to a show in Orlando and my brother and sister-in-law were also there. And Josh was there. So it was like, full. And then the security guard was like, I'm coming with you everywhere. And at this time in my marriage, I was working on letting my wife know she had control asking her instead of telling her. This was a thing we were going through in therapy because I can be overbearing, borderline controlling. And getting all this.

Yeah, right? So I asked her, are you riding with me or your sister? And what I was trying to do was say, hey, I want you to ride with me, but I don't want to impose that you should ride with me because I know this huge security guard is also going to ride with me. But I prefer you to ride with me.

but I prefer you to ride with me. What she heard is, you don't want me. You want me to go with my sister. Not what I said, but she heard with my ass, are you riding with your sister or me? I don't want you. Go with your sister. And the worst part about it, Mike,

the hotel was like a three-minute drive from the venue. We could have walked together. It always is. These arguments are always based on a three-minute drive. It's just a three-minute drive. Like, if it weren't for like a freeway, it wouldn't even been at all. We could have just walked together. This thing had irreparable harm.

Yeah. On our relationship. And in therapy, our therapist was like, I want you to go back to that moment and replay these events. And Kevin, I want you to say what you wish you would have said. And instead, I said, hey, Melissa, can you ride with me? Conan's going to sit in the front and will be a little tight. But can you ride with me? I want you to ride with me back to the hotel.

And the funny thing about that... You want the fight. It's the same story. 1,000%. You want to fight. 1000%. But the funny thing about it is, after we replayed that,

in her memory and my memory, it goes now to the therapist retelling of the story instead of the actual moment where we were at odds. And I thought that was such an interesting lesson in like, you can choose to remember things how you want to. And now if you have more information,

you can choose to remember them differently. but you can also hurt people unintentionally. Yeah, it's funny. Like, the thing I'm working on on stage right now has to do with, I say on stage, like, to me, the most seminal shift in my life is, was falling in love. Because before I fell in love, my whole life, I had all these hopes and dreams and plans.

And then I fell in love, and I was like, or whatever you want to do. And significantly, significantly, Legate, Jen saw me do that joke recently at the comedy seller. And she goes, that's what you think happened? She goes, we've spent the last 20 years doing exactly what you want to do. And I said, therein lied to often two contradictory perspectives in a marriage on identical events, two people intending to do what the other person wants to do.

Like, whatever you want to do, whatever you want to do, whatever you want to do. And that is 20 years later, and no one's done what anyone wants to do. And I go, I'm here to tell you tonight, if this sounds familiar, you're in your relationship. You got to start doing what somebody wants to do because we're running out of time. That's like... That's hilarious.

Yeah, it's a fun one. That's hilarious. It's so true. It's funny because then Neil Brennan saw me do it, who's been a guest in the show a couple times before, at the cellar the other night, and he was like, you should have your whole show be about that. Right.

He's like, because that's everything. That is everything. Everything is like people trying to do what their friend or their parents or their, or their wife or their girlfriend wants to do. And that person's trying to do that for you too. And it's like, you don't want to jump out and say, well, I think we should do this because now you're just a jerk. Yeah.

And we always do what you want to do. So you end up doing stuff you don't want to do. Yeah. And then you're resentful about that. Yeah, absolutely. You're like, I should have just said this. Yeah, she just said what I wanted to do. Because you're just being deferent to them and they think they're being

different to you and just everyone's angry. Yes. Or they want you to say it so they don't have to think about it. Yeah. Yeah, that's so true. Yeah, and also, like, with your show, I feel like there might be something where you digress from, like, you're at the funeral and you digress into like, my wife is there with me and we had just had an argument about blah, blah, blah, and you could go into some of that stuff and then come back. Yes. I think, like, sometimes the, you know, it's like putting, you know, painting with the color red too much in a canvas.

It's like sometimes like if if you are hitting death the whole time the funeral the whole time like it's like certainly you're like, uh, it's like shocking. It's like there might be a version where you're like your central and I do this in a lot of my shows, but your central story is let's say the funeral or something around the funeral or getting the news flying to Texas to see your brother after he was hospitalized. And and then your digressions are just things. in your life, your marriage, your relationship with your family, your kids, but then you're coming back to the central story, whether that's a funeral, whatever it is. And then you can land on that at the end, because I found like the end was really powerful. Like, I was really struck by it. I was like, oh, man, but there might be a version where your comic relief in the middle ends up being about really just random things that are in some ways correlated to what happened on that day. Yeah, I thought about that. In an earlier version of the show, I had, like, right before I tell that story about my grandma,

I had a story about when my grandma took me and my sister to Vegas for the first time on vacation, she made a sign a notarized contract that said we wouldn't act up. And I didn't know what a notary was at the time. Your grandmother? My grandma took my sister and out of Vegas and made us, she wrote a contract. When you were kids? When I was a kid. Like circus circus.

Why would she do that? We always, for whatever reason, she loved Vegas. And she, Circus, Circus was the only hotel we went to. Yeah. We would do the whole midway and then they built that dome. And then they would eat at the like seizure buffet and that would be it. She didn't gamble that I know of. Now, I don't know.

Maybe she was, y'all go to bed. And it was a different Ruth, I don't know what she was on. But the first time she took me and my sister, she made a sign a notarized contract. Yeah. And so we wouldn't act up. And I thought it was interesting

because it was like, if we acted up, you were going to whip us contract or not. So what was the reason for going through the fact that we went? We literally did the thumbprint. Went to a Notre Republic's office, all that stuff. So I told that story right around the time I'd talk about her on stage.

But I found that it didn't like, it didn't really go anywhere. I don't know if it was funny enough or it didn't connect enough, but I just ended up taking it out. Was she at the funeral? She was at the funeral. Yeah.

So that maybe is a way to digress out. Tell a story about me. You got to understand this thing about my grandmother when I was a kid, blah, blah, blah. Yeah. And then ideally, like, all of those component parts can come back in in the end. Right.

It's like in the final scene of the show. Like a lot of times that's how I build shows. is like the final scene, let's say it has your grandmother, it has your wife, it has your sister-in-law, et cetera, and that all of that comes back in. Like my, oh, my God, I was dying at the thing about your sister-in-law was killing me. He's dead. He's dead, he's dead, Tori? Tammy. He's dead, Tammy. He's dead, Tommy. That made me laugh so hard, and it was actually kind of like, so it was basically like, God, do you not want to, I don't want to put you on the spot. No, no, no.

You know, it's good. It's part of the show, but like it was basically like your sister-in-law showing up at your brother's body. Yeah. And having this very extreme reaction. For sure. Yeah. And it. Mike, she was almost like in funeral mode.

You know, black people, we are very expressive people. And she was like, she was not happy with how he was being presented. And she was pissed. Yeah, yeah. He doesn't look right. His colors off. He's, you know, this and that. And my grandma, she just don't want to hear it.

Yeah, yeah. She just, she gets sick of things quickly. Yeah. So she's like, his colors off, his colors off. And my grandma's like, he's dead, Tammy. He's dead. that's why he looks like that and it was such a not funny thing in the moment

but later on it was dead Tammy he's dead you make this point this show that I think is such a great point with just like those are the funny things in life where it's like in the moment it's totally not funny that your grandmother's like he's dead Tammy he's dead but then like a day later

like when the when the ice cream is melted by the time it gets to your house or whatever. You're like, he's dead, damn it! But it's like, I love that piece of the show because it breaks apart the anatomy of what is funny and why. Yeah, yeah.

And I think that's the best part of comedy is like, good comedians can find things funny where you would be like, there's no way. There's nothing there. Yeah, yeah. And when you, I feel like people give you extra credit, If you can find the humor in that, they're like, okay, now this guy's good. Yeah, yeah, sure.

This lady really knows how to, because I wouldn't think there's anything funny about that. Yeah, yeah, but it's all in the like, that's why I always say people like, you know, comedy, you're getting canceled and not, you can talk about anything. Yeah. You just have to be really good and really smart and willing to do a lot of work to get away with something. You got to understand how that community acts, who can say what? Yeah. What's punching down, what's punching up. But a lot of times people get in trouble, they just have a really lazy joke.

Yeah. That they haven't even tried to work out, or they don't care about that community, care to understand what makes something funny. I think that's true. And I think it's like, like, if a comedian is pushing too far, and the person defending that person is like, no, no, no, but look at how they land the plane. Right. And they explain like, you know, then he says this, then he says this, and then he lands at the end. It's kind of like, oh, okay.

Exactly. But if they don't land the plane. plane is where it gets really dicey. One thousand percent. I also think part of that is there's stuff you can get away at your live show with context. Completely.

That does not translate out of context on a clip. So I think that's the disconnect between a live show and the internet. The dice here, the material it is, the more it needs to be interpreted through the lens where it was originally given. Yeah. And the final thing we do is working out for a

cause. Is there a nonprofit you like to contribute to, we will contribute to them and link to them in the show notes. Oh, wow. Oh, I know Storm to Barge. She's a black dancer in L.A. She's just starting a dance program to basically have an after-school program for kids in L.A. to basically have somewhere to go and learn dance after school. Oh, that's great.

I will find her. She's literally starting this like this week. And she has a zail. And I'll get that from her. Amazing. All right, because she's amazing. And I think that's so important. I think after school, sometimes just after school activities for kids, just having something

to do after school that you're looking forward to can stop so many negative aspects of crime, violence, whatever. Sometimes something is simple. It's dance, boxing sports. I think that's fantastic. And I think, like, also just like, I love it when people pick nonprofits where it's like a personal. Yeah. And they know the person's doing a good job.

Yes. And I know it's going to go directly to kids in LA. You know it will go directly to kids. I think that's fantastic. Thanks, Kev. This has been so fun. Thank you. Thanks for coming on.

And I'm thrilled to see where the show goes because I think it's fantastic. And I appreciate you for coming. Appreciate you very help. The fact that you really came, I asked my team, I was like, it might come. And my brother-in-law was like, was he the white dude? And I was like, yeah, he was like, he came. Wasn't that many white dudes at the show. It was me and the bartender.

So thank you for You were easily identifiable He was all yeah, he came I saw him at the back Is it the white dude with the notebook in the back scribbling furiously And trying to get some light with his phone To write notes

Exactly he was like, oh, he came I got two pages of notes right here It's amazing, man It's beautiful and it's a real gift You're giving a real gift to your audience Thank you, thank you, thank you I appreciate it Working it out

it's not done. Working it out because there's no. That's going to do it for another episode of Working It Out. You can follow Kevin on Instagram at Kev On Stage. You can find his book's successful failure as well as Marriage Be Hard at your local

bookstore. Check outberbiggs.com to sign up for the mailing list. You can watch the full video of this episode on our YouTube channel at Mike Barbiglia. Subscribe as we are posting more and more videos. Our producers of working it out are myself along with Peter Salomon, Joseph Barbiglia,

Mabel Lewis, and Gary Simons. Sound mixed by Shib Sarin, and supervising engineer Kate Balinski. Special thanks to Jack Hansonoff and Bleachers for their music. They have a new album coming out soon. I love that new, they have one new song that's out right now. It's fantastic. Special thanks, as always, to my wife,

a poet, J. Hope Stein, and our daughter, Una, who built the original Radio Fort Mata Pillows. Thanks most of all to you who are listening. If you enjoy our podcast, please rate us and review us on Apple Podcasts. We're chasing 5,000 user reviews. Come on. We have 200 episodes.

Thank you to everyone who has been a part of it. If you like the show, tell your friends, tell your enemies. Tell your partner. Tell your spouse. Say, hey, while we're working on our relationship, one thing we could do together is listen to all 200 episodes of Mike Prigli is working it out. It's where Mike Brubigali talks about the creative process with other comedians and also sometimes his wife, the poet Jay Hope Stein.

Thanks, everybody. We're working it out. We'll see you next time.