Mike Birbiglia's Working It Out - 213. Jack Antonoff Returns: Music’s Biggest Producer Records Mike’s Pizza Song

Episode Date: May 18, 2026

Ahead of the release of his new album “Everyone For Ten Minutes,” Jack returns to Working It Out. Mike and Jack break open why Jack has never listened to Mike’s podcast, what Jack wanted to say about marriage and loneliness on his new album, and what Bill Burr, Frank Langella, Jon Bernthal, Andy Milonakis, and the Indigo Girls have in common. Plus, Mike and Jack play guitar as they work out a new comedy song, “Remember Pizza.” Please consider donating to The Ally Coalition Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

I said I wanted to be more sincere in this morning in my head. Yeah, because I've been doing that on other places. Oh, that's nice. Didn't you find the clips of Stern very sincere? Yeah, on Stern, I thought you were great, but I didn't see the whole thing. The truth is, I saw clips. Well, I have a theory on this. What's your theory?

The only, so you saw clips. And I was like, well, why didn't you watch the whole hour I was on Stern? You're like, you know, I will, which is not true. But if I said, well, I talked about you, then I think you'd watch the whole hour. I'd subscribe. I think you would, I think you would Kool-Aid man through any paywall if I was like, well, I talked about

your special. And did a couple minutes on it. You'd be like, oh, cool, and in your head were like, I'm watching that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which is, here's the that's a case for, we should just mention a lot of people casually on the podcast today. Totally. And then they'll, they'll

find it to it. They'll find it. Franklin Jella was great for us Nixon. Oh, he's fantastic. Franklangela was great. Franklin Jella. Here's a Franklangela story. Yeah. Never going to say it. I love the Indigo girls. Me too.

I went to a bunch of their concerts when I was in college. It was brilliant. Yeah. And even high school, actually. Really? I enjoy. John Bernthal. John Bernthal's very talented.

Are you kidding me? John Bernthal. Rami was here the other day. Rami Yusuf was here. Nice. Yeah. Great guy, very funny, new special. Joey bag of donuts.

My brother? Yeah. He's already listening. He's a producer of the Vodontontas. That doesn't mean he's listening. Yeah. Now we can guarantee he's listening. Working it out because it's not done.

Working it out. That is the voice of the great Jack Antonoff. Jack Antonoff is back. He is the lead singer of the band Bleachers. Jack is on the podcast today, partly to celebrate his new album, which comes out this Friday. Everyone for 10 minutes. I have listened to an advanced copy. It is amazing.

I could not recommend it more highly. We became friends many, many years ago. You might know him from performing the soundtrack to this very show. As a matter of fact, today on the show, we're premiering his new version of the soundtrack of the show, in addition to premiering a song that I wrote. I wrote a song called Remember Pizza that I share with him today. I haven't keep in mind.

This is the hook, but also the disclaimer. I haven't written a song in like 20 years. On my first album, I wrote Guitar Guy at the Party and the oatmeal song about Christian rock, but I actually haven't written a song in a super long time. And if I were going to write a song, which I did, I in real life would bring it to Jack. So in this case, I did, except we were rolling video and rolling audio.

and so you do get a first-hand inside look into what our conversations are like when we're riffing on something. You know, he's done a, he and I've done a lot of, like, comedy songs over the years. Like, he did a song for the end of the new one. I used his Redhurst song at the end of the old man in the pool. I'm just a huge, huge fan of his work, and I've been lucky enough to collaborate on some little, you know, riffs through the years. and so anyway, it's a really unique episode today. You probably know Jack Antonoff. He's produced albums and written songs for Taylor Swift and Lord and Lana Del Rey and St. Vincent and Pink,

Florence in the Machine, Kendrick Lamar, Sabrina Carpenter, Doja Cat, and Moore. He's won 13 Grammy Awards. That's just one of the things he's done. He's won 13 Grammy Awards. He's a very accomplished person. He's one producer of the year at the Grammys, three consecutive times from 2022 to 2024. We could, I mean, I could talk about, I could talk all day. about all the things that Jack has done.

But you probably know, or you could look it up. He has a new album coming out called Everyone for Ten Minutes. This is on the heels of Strange Desire, as well as gone now. Take the Sadness Out of Saturday Night and the self-titled Bleacher's album. These are all great albums, by the way. When I saw them play Madison Square Garden, I was like, oh, it's just every song they play is a hit. So we work out a song today on the show, which is very unique.

On every episode, we try to work out material. Also, I've been working out even more material over on the Working It Out premium feed on Apple Podcasts. I did one recently with Pete Holmes, where we work out listeners jokes. We play listeners' jokes and we punch up those. If you want to subscribe to the premium feed, go to Apple Podcasts, and it's $4.99 a month, and you get no ads on any of these episodes. You support our show, which we appreciate. It's an independent production.

And you get those bonus episodes. This summer, I'm doing a few dates I wanted you to know about. I'll be in Montreal. In July. I'll also be in Nantucket in July. Those tickets go on sale soon. All of it on berbigs.com. Sign up for the mailing list is the best way to know.

Just in case that's going to go to spam, which sometimes happens. If you text Burbigs, B-I-R-B-I-G-S to 9-4-44-7-1-5-0, you will. will absolutely be the first to know about my upcoming shows. You can watch the full video of this episode, which is very interesting because we both have, I don't know if you can tell this from listening, we both are playing guitars for part of the episode. That's a very unique thing. I think that's definitely a first. But you can watch the whole thing on YouTube.

And subscribe if you're interested because we're posting more and more videos. We really appreciate it. Enjoy my chat with the great Jack Antonoff. Joe, let's make more. I saw you at Madison Square Garden last summer. I'm going to see you again this summer. You're going to come to MSG again? Yep.

I think you have the experience at that show that is very different than a lot of people because you have a unique experience of seeing me play to six to 15 people many, many times. So... Yeah, I've seen the smallest shows, and I've seen the biggest shows. I saw you Madison Square Garden.

I saw you at the place in Jersey that's super small with Steel Train. Oh yeah, you were always kind of big to me because you always had an audience. I realize now that those shows were small, but my barometer of my whole life is someone who is like big is someone who had an audience. Right.

And there was always like, I never saw you play to no one. I played to no one. I know you did. I know you did. By the time I met you, I think you had like a hundred people showing up everywhere. Right. Which is a huge achievement.

No, no, it is. Big time. Yeah. Well, you and I always have. this thing in common, which is we both started with a cult, very small group of people who were like, that's my person. And you and I, and you speak to this on the album, you're very loyal to those people. Like, you have a song where you're like, fuck everybody else. I think I say that. I love that song. That is such an anthem for your fans. Well, they are literal and representative.

So, like, yeah, they're literally group of people, but they also represent. And, like, you know, the longer you do something, you, you've like, you essentially have two choices. You can either, like, look elsewhere for more people to come in or just drive deeper and deeper into what's happening. And I think, I've told you this theory before, but the whole looking away theory. What is it? So, thinking about it's constantly, you know, when you're at a party and someone's talking to you or anywhere, and then they go like this. Yeah. And your heart breaks into a million pieces because in that one.

In that one glance, it's like, is there something better out there? It's not like a subtle thing you can come back from. It's like telling your partner you're not sure or something. It's not possible. It's the whole deal is broken. Yes. I think about that with music. I would never take my eye off of them.

It doesn't mean people aren't allowed in, but like I'm talking right to them. And I see, I would never name names, but I see other people artistically go like, you know, like, is there someone over there that's better? And you never recover for a million reasons. first of all, you lose the people you're in deep conversation with, as you should. But also, the very act of looking for something else inherently sucks. Yeah. You know, like, I don't want to hear from anyone who doesn't want to be in conversation with me.

Right. So in a way, you did that look away when you went on Stern this week. Mike turned into a full gotcha podcast. Maybe what happened? I'll take it out. Did we run out of money? Yeah, we ran out of money. No, you don't take anything out.

You should go full, um, do you want me to gotcha you? Sure. Well, why don't you talk about, why don't you get into the depths of like, like your films and what you're humming on,

which is like friendship, art and those who sort of like stray and those who come back and those who get a little bit what I'm talking about, you know, like the poisons of success. Okay. Was that been like for you? If I did 200 episodes of my own podcast about my own fascinations.

Yeah. Like, well, I'm asking for one, but go on. Friendship, love, et cetera. People would be so bored, they would listen to one of the other million podcasts. I'm not sure they would. Yeah. Here's my theory on podcasts. I think it's like the feeling of like, you know when you're somewhere and you hear

some other people talking? Yeah. And it's like a wonderful experience. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, there's nothing I would love more than to be like at a restaurant alone. and hearing like a couple argue a hundred percent i think that is essentially like entering people's subconscious in that kind of way is what this form does i love that you think that's your theory who else said it well like everyone yeah bill berr yeah john berenthal oh john bernthal definitely

you think he said that but you think he said that you think frank langella said that yeah frank langella did say that famously really yeah okay you don't know that you think andy milanacca said that yeah and You said it on Squirt TV on MTV in the 90s. You think all your old comedy buddies, Dimeji Martin, Eugene Merman? You think they all said that? They all said that. The Rafi-Fi crew, is that what it was?

They've all said that. Is that what it was? Jesus. Is that what it was? Yeah, that was part of my crew. Okay. Where is it? Yeah.

I always saw you as outside of everything in a good way. Thanks. You too. I feel the same way of myself, but I never saw you as attached to anything other than Seth Barish. You know why, I think? No, Seth's listening. Yeah, now Seth's listening.

We're wrecking it up. The Barrow group is listening. John Bernthal is like, you know, locked in now. You know what part of it is? You're saying, like, I'm not part of a group? Yeah. I don't stay past midnight. You think it's that?

Yes, I'm convinced that the people who stay past midnight are part of the crew. You might be right. I think it all happens past midnight. But then the you and me is the world, because you are always home by midnight. Way before that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We're like waking up and, like, writing in the morning, I think. The only time I'm out past midnight is if it's, like, serious work stuff.

So maybe people have an energy up me like, like, he's, yeah, I think you're right. Like, even the band or like stuff happens after I leave. Oh, 100%. Like real, like, friendship building stuff. I got questions from your band today. You did? Yeah, I asked your parents. I asked your band for questions.

Anything from John Berndtall? Yeah, we got John Burnton. Burnthal. So your dad, Rick, says, he had four questions. Number one, do you have a backup plan in case this music adventure doesn't work out? Number two, why- Adventure? Yeah, because that's very funny. This is a quote. Number two, why can't you call your sister more often? What? Number three, can you include your parents more in your stuff? Number four, can mom send you a flute track that she recorded? But here's what your dad... If he had better... If he was better at, like, the craft of it,

he could have been a comedian. He's very funny. He doesn't have the structure. Like, you know, like, there's a craft, and then there's just like a natural thing. He has the natural thing. Like, the use of the word adventure there, is very funny to me.

It's strong. I think so. And then Shira... Hold on. Your mom is so sweet. She doesn't love you. She doesn't. You know a little into your own thing.

I'm like looking, looking around her at parties. She said that she wanted to go see you on Broadway and you just, you just, you sent her house seats that she had to pay for. Okay. It's completely. And when I worked on Broadway, I got her free tickets. Because the truth about Broadway, which no one wants to say is that there are free tickets. You know there's free tickets.

If John Bernthal or Frank Langella or Andy Milanox came to the show, they're coming for free. Yeah. If your cousin wants to co, then all of a sudden there's no free tickets. It's bullshit. Yeah. She gave my mom tickets to your shows. She's supported you for a long time. Your mom always has free tickets to my show.

That's not what she said. I think she paid for the new one. Okay. I think she paid for two drink Mike on Broadway at the Winter Garden. Do you think Two Drink Mike sells out the Winter Garden? Does the Winter Garden still exist? Winter Garden is where death of a salesman is? What are you talking about?

You could blow out Death of a Salesman and bring in two drinks Mike? And that yell he does? It's a fucking classic! That's what Mike sounds like to me. It's a fucking classic! You want to hear my impression of an entire Mike show really quickly?

This is insane. And the sweater, and the sweater was tight. The sweater, I can't move. And then he won. And then the light's dim. And then I took off the sweater. And I was a dad. That is a mic show.

Fade the black. Then my hair cut. And then I lost the dog because I'm going. hair cut and then I had to go to the haircut then I had to shave my head and look at her fucking idiot and then I look at Chloe and she goes it was never the hair fade to black

and the NPR and he's just like is that not it oh my god and in that moment looking at the Pope I turned to Chloe and I said let's buy that car

fade to black and then no no that is that not it You know what I mean? That's definitely an interpretation someone would have. It's your form. Right. That's what?

That was an interpretation someone who'd have who's seen you a million times with the past many decades. I think so. To me, what I just presented was like if an alien came down and was just like, show me the heart of a mic show, that was that. AI. I pulled everything else out. AI. Aliens are not AI. Aliens are the opposite of AI.

This is from Shira. Ask Jack if he thinks Rick is short. Your dad. My dad has done a weird thing. lying about your height is a crazy, he's done it our whole lives. There's no, he lied? He's, he's been lying about his life, his whole life. But it's the weirdest thing because it's like, it's almost like camp?

Like what do you do? Like Canadian girlfriend at camp? No, like camp. Oh, campy? Yeah, like the genre. Yeah. Okay. Right?

Yeah. Like the opposite of like, and in that moment, I was a father. Mike's the opposite of camp in May to fade to black. He's almost camp because he's so the opposite of camp. Anyway, my dad's lied about his height his whole life, which is an insane thing. It's sort of like, it's the lady Dothbert Hesting, not even like too much, like a ridiculous amount.

It's like no one even asked. He always goes on these world adventures. He goes everywhere, but then... Every time I see him, he'll be like, I went to Chile. Yeah. He'll be like, I went to Taiwan. I think they pronounced Chile differently, but we can... I'm sure you don't have much of an audience there.

I asked your band members questions and Zem said, what are your top memories of listening to music that you wish could stay with you forever? Classic Zemna, just take it home with an actual question. Real question? My guess is from the band, that's the only one that has any sincerity.

No, no, I think Hutch's is good too. Go ahead, go ahead, though. What would have like to be a piece of shit, you piece of shit? Zams question, what was it, musical memories that I wish I could take with me? Yeah. You know, the first time you hear things.

Yeah. And I still get it all the time. but I'll never forget the first time I heard Tom Waits's Foreign Affairs or like refused shape of punk to come airs moon safari these these complete classics that you know you're being changed in real time a lot like falling in love with someone or even a tragedy happen there's very few moments in life where you know you're being changed in real time yeah right yeah this is nice but this is not that but if someone came in here and pointed to the gun at us, we would know we were being changed in real time if,

you know, there's a good and bad. So, so I've had moments like that with like, what are classic albums to me where I could feel myself becoming different as I was listening. Yeah. I had that. I mean, it's hard to tell until it's retrospect, but I feel like I had that listening to your album yesterday. Thanks. I'm on the subway and listening to it, heading into the city. I love the subway, and I love listening to music on the subway. And I just had like, oh my God, this is. And honestly, no one's heard it. You're kind of, I know.

But this comes out the week it comes out. Oh, cool. I was really moved by it. I felt like it was, I mean, I say this as the highest compliment. It was the most you of any of your albums. and that's saying a lot because your other albums are very you. Well, it's really for people who know me. Yeah.

It's like the things I'm talking about, it's not, there's like a broadness missing from it. Yeah, it's not broad. No. It's super specific. I think music could be enjoyed by lots of people, but I think the lyrics are pretty clear. I think sonically it's different too.

Very, I recorded it all different. Oh, did you? I get really literal with process. Like sonically, I'm, of course, an amateur, so I'm going to say, like, really general things. It seems fuller. Hmm. The sound.

Well, there's less in it, and one thing I've noticed about sonics is so like... So the opposite. No, no. I'm actually not making funny right now. You can make things fuller with less. Okay. Because, so you have to see.

see the sonic field as a circle. Uh-huh. Right? You have two ears. If you're lucky, let's say you hear out of both of them correctly. Uh-huh. Or at the highest level. And you hear things back here.

Mm-hmm. And then they move around. So it's not left and right, right? Right. It's things move around. So if I go like this and then I move it here, it's a circle. Move it here. And then reverberations hit in that way too.

So when we're recording, we're imagining it like a circle. So like, per example, if you do a backup vocal. It's like we don't just chuck it on the right. It's like maybe we put it on the right and then we put some reverb on it that kind of trails off and moves left. Oh, wow.

So if it just was on the right and move left, it would go like this. Yeah. If the reverb grows at the same time, it goes like that. Yeah. It's getting further away and moving. So think of a circle.

That circle is finite. Yeah. No matter how many people want to create new ways of listening, at most this, at most that, blah, blah, blah. There's essentially a group of frequencies we can hear, and there's a limit to that.

So when in the and it's something I play with it. So the more you add, the more you just press up against these circular walls. Right. The less you add, the more that sound travels on its own to these places. It's why like a lot of rap music sounds so full because, you know, sometimes it was just like a hiatus, an 808 and a vocal. Yeah. And like maybe like a keyboard or minimal rap music, it's like bouncing off the whole thing. Right.

Whereas when you hear a live recording of a band and there's so much going on, the audience space, you feel like almost slightly trapped. Yeah. So this album does sound more full, and it's something you play with. Neither is better or worse. But the less that's going on in something, the more it travels around you. That's interesting. And I noticed, like, when you, on Stern, for example, you played harmonica, which is awesome.

It's fun. I like things. There's a literalness to the work in the non-literal part. The literal part is like, how did I do it before? Let's do it different. What are instruments I haven't heard in a while? I haven't heard the harmonic in a really long time. And that shit happens very randomly.

Like I was just listening to some Dylan stuff. And I was just like, you know, I think it's because like I don't like that neck piece. Yeah. So I always deemed it a little bit cheesy. But I was like, no, it's a really interesting tone. And it plays off of that harmonic resonance that the saxes have. I all of a sudden was like, I haven't heard the harbys accord in a really long time. That became a big character in the album.

So like those things are fun. Yeah. They're like, you know, I'm using this for low. let's use this. The literal shocking yourself, different ways of doing things. But that can only take you so far. That's just like an outfit.

Is there an instrument you wish you could play, but you can't kind of can't? You know, when it comes to string instruments, like I can mess around with them, but I can't really play them. Like I'd love to be able to take like a... Like a violin or something. Yeah.

Or like I play cello on a lot of recordings and I have to do it. You know, I'm not great. But I also like that. Sometimes hearing someone struggle with something is cooler than being great. Yeah, I find that even vocalists. Like, you know, some of those Kanye records

where he's singing and it's like his voice isn't all that great. I don't want, this is the dissonance with like American Idol singing. Like, if you are someone who could like bring down the house at a talent show, that's great. But you, but there's something more exciting about someone who, to me, that's why I love like Dylan and weights and people like this where it's like, it makes sense more artistically than it does literally. Yeah.

I was talking to Howard about this when I was on. It's like I was saying that private parts is a Bible for all artists because regardless of his medium, no one was asking him to do it. Yeah. No one was like, wow. Where's the movie, Howard? Yeah, yeah. In his whole career, no one was like, you're so good. It was the story.

Yeah. His whole life, including the movie, is the story of someone who felt compelled to do something and the art is within that. Yeah. Like no one, you know, like, I don't think many comedians were like the fucking class clown. Right. They're more probably. Yeah, rarely. Rarely, they're more, like, slightly more removed and kind of like the ones I know are a little bit removed from everything, looking at the absurdity and the bizarreness of situations and kind of like writing about it in their head. Like, I wasn't playing guitar at a campfire. Right. I wasn't guitar guy at the party.

Guitar guy at the party, which is a song I wrote many years ago. Evan from your band wrote, if the band fell into a volcano tomorrow, what do you wish the legacy would be? Well, unfortunately, the legacy would be that we fell into a volcano. I think even if that's a layup. Yeah, even if the Beatles fell into the volcano, it would eclipse. It's the big bopper right there. Yeah. Because this never happened. Yeah.

You know, no one's ever fallen into a volcano as a musical group. Great question, idiot. I think it's a brilliant question. Yeah, yeah. And I think if you know Evan, you could understand where that was coming from. I can imagine him like going like that and thinking long and hard. with that. I think I would want the legacy to be

just how us we were. Yeah. Which means different things of different people. My only goal is to become more and more specific. Here's how I would describe the MSG show last year. And I'm sure that this year will be just as good if not better. You do a thing with your band where you leave it on the floor. all there. You might as well be dead afterwards. I feel dead after. I don't. The very thing that

gives me so much life is a thing that hurts me too, which is like, I've never known how to, I have so many issues in life, thoughts, feelings, OCDs, just stuff that distracts me from life. Yeah. I bet you feel this way too. The second I get on stage or the second I get into the studio, but talk about life, the second I get on stage, I become, in my head, what I've always seen as like a free normal person. Same. I don't think about anything else. I'm so present.

And I can't think about the next day. I can't think about the day before. Yeah. You know, all my traumas and the songs, but that's kind of enough, but my spirit is very present. And to my own detriment sometimes, you know, like I don't have the ability to pace myself.

So just every night's the last night on earth. Yeah, yeah. That's exactly how I feel. Yeah, and that's why I do it so much. And I think that is, to reduce something wild, I think that is the secret to life, which is that you can find that one thing that makes you feel like you are not in a wild topsy-turvy ride of the past and the future, you know, just dealing with everything and actually just makes you feel like you're

standing on the ground. You have to do that thing. That's why like, in some ways, that's what all great entertainment is, or is this, are they going to be alive at the end of this, metaphorically. Is this thing going to fly off the, yeah. The thing is like the Houdini one is underwater. He's underwater and he's in chains. It's like, is he going to get out? But like, isn't the Houdini thing everybody? I feel like the national is like this. When I've seen the national live, you go like, are they going to be all right? Yeah. Is Mac going to be okay? I mean, it does, I grew up this way. Taylor's like that too, by the way. I've met life. Like, what the hell?

What the hell is this? This is crazy. Completely. This is deathifying. If it doesn't get there for me, and she does it, even, even like, Tom Waits does it when he's sort of like hunched over the piano, where like, you're like, is he going to eat this piano? Like, like, yeah, to me, my favorite thing about any, any live performance is the mix of, like, expertise and discomfort.

Yeah. You know where it's like this, I like watching people who are, and this is kind of how I feel when I'm up there too, where I'm like, like crawling out of my own fucking skin. I don't even know what I'm going to do next. And I also feel completely in control in a totally different way. Yeah.

And it's like, it's like that. Like the more I do it and the more I love it, I like have this control that lets me be more out of control. This actually leads into Hutch's question, which is how has meeting Margaret and becoming a more well-adjusted man affected your work? What is with these sincere questions? I know. Interesting, right?

A lot of love. Yeah. A lot of love. It's made me double down on everything I always hoped was true, but maybe felt insecure about it. Yeah. When you get, I wrote a song about this called I'm Not Joking. It's on the album. The lyric is when you get what you want, when you want.

when you want what you get, it's the heaviest. Yeah. Because it's really on. It's almost like the buzzer really starts or something. Yeah, yeah. I don't write a lot of songs about, like, fantastic. I'm in love. I write a lot of songs where that's a fact.

Yeah. I've found my person and now how does that color the rest of my life? Yeah. Which it can be anxiety producing, can be terrifying, can be joyous, all these things. Yeah. But I feel, meeting her makes me feel like, like I could take all the shame in the world. I don't care.

Yeah. But now there's someone I want to be great for. Uh-huh. Do you feel, you know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah, Jenny's opinion is the opinion that I am most interested in always. Yeah, the way, the way she, and I feels like about the band too. Like the way some people see me is far more beautiful than I could allow myself to be

seen by myself. Sure. And so it does a lot for my soul to live up to. to their vision. I feel the way about my audience, honestly, too. That's what people say when they're, I would say, most romantic about marriage.

They go, it's the process of, it's the commitment to bearing witness to someone else's life. Yes. And then bearing witness to yours. And when you choose, or whether it's a choice or not, when you actually believe their view of you,

it's a heavy thing to live up to. Yeah. And it's a beautiful thing. But man, I was, you know, one thing I'll say about, getting married, touring all these things. Why are the loudest people talking about shit, the people that have the weirdest opinions on it?

All the stories you hear about marriage, it's just like, we only hear from people who fucking hate their marriages. Right. We only, you know, like, I grew up and everyone was like, good luck going on tour. It's like, I love going on tour. Right.

You know, like, now I don't have kids yet. You can speak to this, but there's so many people being like, oh, well, when you have kids, you're fucked. And I'm like, maybe you shouldn't have written the book. Right. You know, maybe all this stuff is, and I don't know, I only know about the things that I have done that have had those things.

When you have kids, it's hilarious. When they're five, you're really fucked. When they're 10, you're really, you know, along the way, I'm just like, that's good. I just think, I think everything is very different for everyone. And it's never been in my personality to, like, share some wisdom. Yeah. Like, I don't meet young artists. And I'd be like, well, the road will kill you.

Right. You know, I'm like, it's so interesting what happens. Yeah. It's different for it's, it's, it's, it's, I do the longer I'm around, the more I feel like, and I know this is a bit of a no shit, but a lot of history gets told by the people who fancy themselves someone who should be telling history. 100%. And a lot of true history doesn't get told because people are just living it and making it. A hundred percent. And I feel this way deeply about art. Well, certainly think about art versus third person accounts of art. Oh my God. Which do you want

to learn more from? It's like, of course the art. I mean, the representation. I mean, the representation of art in in like film and television is hilariously off yeah like beyond yeah beyond like has become yeah you look at the top 10 lists and the top 20 you're like what but but just when they show music being made or they show someone writing like you know it's almost like the exact opposite yeah because there's this obsession with presenting it as a terrible life and i think that is comes from satiating something in in this public need to be like, I didn't do that because I didn't want a terrible life. But that's an American thing.

In other countries where art is seen as more of a just noble job, you don't have to have this concept of like, this is some fringe thing happening. Riddles said, what are your top weird New Jersey sites? I think New Jersey is Europe. And I don't want a laugh. after that because I'm not joking and everyone laughed I love New Jersey come on here's why it's

Europe when you drive around Europe or travel it's like as from an American point of view in this quickest distance you're in totally new cultures that's I feel about Jersey every turn you take there's a beach there's a city there's a mountain yeah it's just different everywhere we have great Italian people Mike

why did you say Mike you're Italian well I'm all good Italian what's the first concert you ever went to my parents took me to see Aerosmith Nice. Collective soul opens. It was the first band I ever saw.

Oh, you got to love your light shine down. What's the first album you ever bought? Ever bought? My own money, Monster by R.E.M. What's the frequency you can't do? Great. And I remember thinking vividly, like hearing that distorted guitar. Yeah, the distortion is great.

And being like, how'd they do that? And then I went to get a pedal. Yeah. And I left it plugged in. And the battery died, and I got home and played it, and I felt like a god. And then the next day, if you leave it plugged in, it kills the battery. I didn't realize that. And I didn't have like a cord.

I just had a fucking battery in there. And I was so sad the next day. And I went back to the store. And they were like, you know, this is back when people were like really mean at music stores. Who fuck wrong with you, kid? Can you leave it plugged in? You'll never be nothing. You'll never be nothing.

You're never going to be nothing. Yeah, yeah. There's a, you know the Bob Dylan interview where he goes, I didn't write these songs. God wrote these songs. It's kind of recent, right? No, no, that's years ago. 60 minutes.

It's years ago. I thought he, or he gave one recently where he was like, I don't know how I did that. I just love it. Well, you're a big Dylan person. You always have done?

I love Dylan. And have you ever had an experience like that where you just go like, I didn't even write that song? Most of the time. Really? Yeah. Well, there's such a difference

between craft and magic. Uh-huh. And I actually feel you hit a button here because one thing that drives me so crazy so constantly I feel that way I feel like I've developed a lot of craft I know how to work things

I know how to like make sounds I imagine in my head but it only gets you so far the magic is just when you're hit with something that matters and feels like you no idea how it comes why it comes it fills me with the most joy and fear because every time it comes

I feel alive and away I can't describe and then the next feeling is, was that the last one? Yeah. Which is not anxiety. That's real. People, it comes in waves. There are last ones.

Yeah. But it drives me crazy about this moment about being alive is, you know, at best, the internet's an information tool. Yeah. I don't think it's a connection tool because that's gone belly up, right? So I feel like the whole function of people's phones like, oh, you know, what you're with John Adams president? How do I make soup? You know, like, when is the weather going to get nice? You know, looking at the phone.

You're answering questions constantly. So I feel like when you work in any sort of medium that relies on a lot of magic, there's this movement nowadays where it's sort of like everything is, and I notice when I do press, like, well, how'd you write the song? Yeah. And I'm like, I don't know. Like, sure, but like, take us through it. And you're like, motherfucker, I don't know.

Yeah, you don't know. Like, you want to talk about which plugins I use or how I like to like mic the guitar or the tape. I'll talk about that forever, which is why I like doing something like that. that nerdy, you know, gear stuff. Yeah. But like, I call it master class thinking. It's like, do you really think that you can buy a subscription to something

and have Martin Scorsese tell you what Martin Scorsese is? Yeah. No, he can tell you a little bit about craft. Yeah. But there's a lived experience and a way of communicating with the world. Comedians have this more than anyone that if I could fucking define, I would have done it a long time ago. And it's getting the need to understand how the thing is.

done is getting worse and worse and worse out there. And I feel this intense need to push back and be like, we don't know. It comes from a deep place. Like, you know, like... There's a great example of this, by the way, Scorsese that you bring up. You watch the documentary about Scorsese. That's on Apple. It's fantastic. It's like five parts. And you go, and you see, and I had no idea this was true. He, his family was like pushed out of their house by the mob when he was a kid. They were basically like asked to leave by like the local fan. Asked.

Yeah, exactly. And then and then he had a breathing condition. And the only place there was air conditioning in New York was in movie theaters. So we'd watch movies all day. Yeah. And you go, well, how do you learn to make movies? Well, those two things. Yeah, which is such a specific.

Yeah, it's like you can't, you can't convince the mob to fuck with you. you can't harm yourself because then you've done those things like one's life i have my own version of that story and it's like it's all part of this thing it's just a need i also think it comes from an anxiety for everything that's gone wrong in the world everyone wants to understand why how probably at best in a way to um correct it in the future but that's is not what art is you know everyone i work with everyone i know myself i mean you can't really explain yeah it's like you're these things you write on the wall it's like that's not the job yeah that's like that's like putting your socks on it's just like a thing that's like helpful right the job is like in your

head and your heart yeah well it's like purging out of you yeah because you're trying to make sense of things that are i think incongruous like i like i heard a Seinfeld quote recently that i thought was great which is like is like writing jokes is the process of shutting everything off book TV, movies, your phone, and letting yourself become so bored with an idea that the idea becomes interesting. That's how I feel about songs. Living in a delusional board space where no music really exists and then you in your head write a song that needs to exist. And even that feels reductive. Yeah. But that's been an interesting journey for me and a lot of people I know of like living through this time of answering for how you did something and explaining something that you

don't even when it happens to you it's like asking someone like like where god is or why they believe it's like i could like give you some poetry but it's kind of in the music yeah yeah it's in there yeah you have a line in the van love the van love it thanks might be my favorite song on the album I just don't want to be lonely. I just don't want to be. That's the thing about loving your shadow. You talk about a lot in your songs through the years about loneliness and your shadow.

And what makes you feel lonely and what's the antidote for loneliness for you? It's been finding other people who don't want to be lonely. So like commiserating on this weird, sick feeling you wake up with. Yeah. You know?

Yeah. Do you have that? Do you wake up feeling like, ooh, like a little like depression, a little anxiety, a little. Yeah, I feel like I'm not doing, I feel like I'm not peaking early in my day. However, I feel like when I'm disciplined enough to wake up and write, I actually get into a really good space. Me too. I always write in the morning.

Yeah. The second I do anything, eat anything, look at anything, everything diminishes. Yeah. my brain becomes like less my own yeah i agree it's the freshest yeah most on un untethered version of yourself i think because you're connected to this should mean a lot to you as someone who has a very interesting relationship to dreams but dreaming is so protected right you just go into your subconscious and you wake up and if you don't look at your phone if you don't do much if you don't read the news then you're more tethered to those dreams literally you remember them

more and then they become part of your day. And then that dream state, which is like your true subconscious telling you what the fuck's going on with you is more present in your awake reality. And then you hum on it more. You think about it. Yeah. If you, I mean, there's science about this. If you wake up and look at your phone, that, that dream world dies. Yeah. You're gone. Yeah. And it's as a tragedy because you're supposed to, you know, you talk to any analyst, you talk to scientists about this, you're supposed to let that sort of slowly drift

with you throughout the day. A lot of the writing comes from there. We don't write things we know, that's boring. Yeah. You know, I'm not like sitting around writing a song about something I'm sure of. I'm writing a song that feels distant and uncomfortable.

So I wrote this song. I have shared this with no one. This is kind of insane that I'm even showing you this because you're the best, musician I know. So the idea of showing amateur work to someone is insane. Well, I give you lots of pitches for bits. Yeah, it's true. You know. So, so basically, so at the beginning of it, it's like a talkover. And it's right there, by the way, the lyrics.

If you want to see it, it's called Remember Pizza. And so it's like a talkover. It's like, there are so many ads for pizza I feel like they don't need to make anymore I feel like we're sold as a civilization on pizza and then it goes I feel like maybe just an occasional reminder would be helpful just a scroll on the bottom of the screen that says remember pizza

Remember pizza I'd be like I forgot about pizza Then I'd order a pizza That's like the first first I would change the chord on the chorus Okay yeah yeah should we zero in on remember pizza? I think it's... Remember pizza

That's funny Remember pizza Remember pizza Remember pizza I'd be like Oh my God I forgot about pizza And then I ordered a pizza

Remember pizza Okay And then the next verse So I think that Okay So what are the chords that you're playing in the chorus for Remember Pizza right now? F Okay, F is so fucking hard for me.

I know, sir. Remember G, pizza. C. E7, remember? Pizza. Oh, you seven. Seven. Where's the seven?

Take out that middle finger. Take out the ring finger. No, no, other one. Okay, got it. So hard for me, yeah. Remember pizza. Now E7. Wow, okay.

To A minor. Remember pizza. Put a G in it. So just passing. And that would be like F to F minor. Then F minor. Now you just take off the... It's going to be hard.

That's hard. Yeah, my F is terrible. But I like the sound of it. Okay. Well, did you like it? No, it's gorgeous. Well, you don't have to like it. No, it's pretty, but it's funny.

It's higher than my register. No, I didn't. Remember pizza. Sounds great. Sounds like Jonathan. All right. So why don't we... Why don't we take...

Remember pizza. Okay, why don't we take out my guitar and just do your guitar and see if we can sing it together? Okay. So for the talkover, okay, so if you keep playing... Would you play that... For the second verse, would you play the same? Yeah. Okay, so...

But do you know why there's so many ads for pizza? Does anyone know who? Actually, I know we're having fun and laughing. But this is a very serious portion. of the show where I tell you something you've never thought about and then maybe like

dead on guitar you tell you something that you never thought about there are no ads for good pizza there are only ads for bad pizza and then you come in again that's fun I could end the show right there it's true

though there are no ads for good pizza good pizza is confident in their work they're like people will find us but bad pizza's like we'll do anything we'll stay open till 3 a.m.

We'll hire a mascot you can stick pizza inside our pizza I'm like bad pizza get a hold of yourself People are starting to stare But there's no good anything really like there's no ads for Paris But there are ads for New Hampshire But if there were ads for good pizza

And I think kill it there they'd say Remember pizza Remember pizza Remember pizza Remember pizza Remember pizza Remember pizza And then I go

I don't know if you're into graffiti But even if you're not This is a simple idea Stop by your local bodega Grab a marker or a pencil And find the side of a Building and write. Key change.

Remember pizza. Remember pizza. Remember pizza. Okay. I like a few things that happen. There's some seeds. It's amazing. I liked the...

I like, I think... Let me write. I mean, did you like some of those changes I was doing? Yeah, I like the changes. Like, I'm... I really liked them, Mike. Did you like the key change? Yeah.

I like the key change a lot. I really like this long middle section when it went to halftime. Okay. I think most importantly, what I want to say about the song is I think you're making a good point. Right, about remembering pizza. And about how there are no ads for good pizza. The only thing I would add to it. There's only ads for bad pizza.

There's only bad, there's only ads. So basically, I'll tell you the incarnation of the song. Maybe this will help us arrive at it. The incarnation was I have all these jokes about pizza. Yeah. Right? And they're all on the board. And it was one of these things where I'm like, you know, there is actually a guiding principle here. And it's remember pizza. And I think like they're actually, and maybe if I write like a different verse of the song, it might open out to an idea of like remember everything that's good. Well, I think I disagree that the guiding, I agree with that. But the idea that song is Remember Pizza. I think that's like the Georgian horse. Okay.

So I think, you know, the lay person is just going to hear Remember Pizza. Yeah. I think of Pizza Pizza Pizza, Pizza, much like born in the USA. Right. USA is like, no, you know what that song is really about. You know, that song being about Vietnam, to me, remember pizza, what's really about is that the idea that anything advertised is shit. Right.

That's the idea. And that we've come to a world where things mean the opposite. So, for example, if I say, hey, should we go to this hotel and stay at the deluxe suite? Right. you'll be like, well, it's probably not a nice hotel if they're calling it the deluxe suite. Gourmet means the opposite. Right.

A truly gourmet place would never call itself gourmet. That's right. New Hampshire. Right. You know what I mean? No ads or Paris. So I think the deeper meaning on here is reminding people that when in advertising,

it's the exact opposite. Right. If something's great, it's not great. Right. If something's great, it doesn't need to be told. Right. You know what I mean? Like, you're not watching ads for,

great things. You're writing for shit things. That's right. So that to me, which I love that little part when you start to get into it, you know, save things to see everything to the other people, there's no ads for anything good really. That is the heart and soul of the song. There's no ads for anything good really. I wouldn't call this on that. I think this was also remember pizza. But I think that's the Trojan horse is thinking about pizza and what it's really about is why would you market pizza if it was good? Why would you market anything if it's good? If you see an ad for it, whether it's a pharmaceutical, a vacation destination, or anything, it sucks. That's why they're advertising. Right. Feel me? I like, no, no, 100%. So if I were you, if you wrote anymore and you don't want to

stick the landing too hard, you know, something's just a line here or there, which I think you kind of get. The gourmet stuff's interesting, deluxe. Yeah, yeah, no, I like that a lot. You know? I'm just looking. So like... My friend Gary is a comic and he saw me do that joke, but in the joke, it used to be ads for Ohio, and he said, you should change it. New Hampshire. There's less people in New Hampshire. He's got the fig box in the accent. Is it Gary Goldman? Yeah. The goal? What is it? The goal? What is it? Great Depression. Yeah. He goes, dude, dude, dude, dude, dude, Gary Goldman and Bernthal listening to the same podcast. Yeah. Dude, dude, dude, dude, dude, you got to change that to New Hampshire, bro. Here's why Gary is a

genius beyond his work. Yeah. When I was working on this song and I got to that part about New Hampshire and I was like, oh, I don't want to offend you in New Hampshire. And then I was like, small state. Small state. Yeah, no, it used to be Ohio and Gullman was like, no, there's too many people in Ohio. It's too big. But also Ohio is a great place. Oh, it's a great place. No one of the New Hampshire is a great place, by the way. Is it? Yeah, it's a great place. I know my family's from Vermont. So I think it's kind of one of the other up there. What do you like better the talkover or the chords playing underneath the verse? I liked what I personally, what I just did. What you played was nice. Yeah. I think it's really good.

Yeah, I really do. You think it'll get there? I think it's the seed of an idea. No, so I didn't see it's kind of there. I think it's like all things. Look, I think, you know, comedians have the ability to write really powerful songs. Like, you've written great songs. I think Adam Sandler is a brilliant songwriter.

Yeah. I think he, I think, you know, that whole Torrid and Horse thing, it's like you're making people laugh. And then before you know it, like the song he wrote about Farley. Yeah, that's amazing. Like, obviously there's laughs here and there. Yeah. But that's just like a beautiful song. Oh, I love that song. It's a beautiful song. It kills me.

The song he wrote about comedians in the last special. The song about comedians is amazing. It's just outstanding. It's incredible. Obviously, we're old with you as a classic. What's that? I want to make you happy and have you sad. How'd it go.

Growing over you. You're taking medicine when you're tummy aches. Oh, yeah. Oh. All I want to do is grow over you. It's beautiful. And I'll miss you, kiss you, even let you hold a remote control. Need you.

Fees you. I fact that everything goes, even let you hold the remote control. Bring your medicine when you're, let me use. Hey, yeah, you're to listen to. All I want to is go. Yeah, I could be the man. you, I want to grow over with you. You know that from just watching the special?

And then he goes, Julia, I want to grow over with you or something like that. And then Billy Idol's like, yeah, you know the scene on the airplane? Yeah, yeah. You're a artist. But that's a beautiful, that could be anyone's song. And I think, remember pizza chorus is like, it's just about hanging on to what you're really talking about. Like the great comedy songs to me are the ones that are about. something different.

And like I said, it's just a Trojan horse. This song is about not, so, okay, so if we had to break it down to the deepest poetic sense, remember pizza is about not forgetting your joys of amazing things that you love because you're being inundated with people trying to sell you crap. Yeah. So what's at risk is forgetting pizza

because you're being sold so much bad pizza that you just get miffed on pizza. That's right. I would say this could be a song about communication, friendship, love, has the internet ruined our ability to communicate? Have we forgotten how much we love to just talk without a hot take? That's the core of member pizza. Thanks, man. That's so helpful.

This is like a perfect... I was very self-conscious about sharing this with you. Really? Yeah. You shouldn't be. I don't feel self-conscious sharing my jokes with you. Yeah, but there's something about it where I'm like, I'm trying to consider. very serious, we've talked about this on the podcast before,

is very seriously consider integrating music into my next show in a real way. Yeah, it's great. But I don't think it's that deep or scary because no one's expecting you to be perfect at guitar or a perfect song structure or anything like that. So it's like that, that barrier already down actually allows you to be more heartfelt here and there. Do you like when you pick up the guitar, like the audience is with you in the sense that we're like, well, now he's winging in the left.

because we didn't buy a ticket to see him play guitar. Right. So there's something cool to play with in there. Right. That's why I feel free in between songs talking. It's like, if I bomb, it's like, oh, fuck, here's a song. Yeah, yeah, totally. You know, and it's actually like a real looseness to it that is really, like, stepping

outside of yourself a little bit. Totally. Whereas, like, if you're talking, it's not going well, we're pissed. No, totally. You know, we, if I'm telling a story. We came from fucking great neck. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We came from Shrewsbury.

Yeah. Tell the story about Catsachusetts. Tell you where we didn't come from. Yeah, I'm sure. Yeah, I know. I saw that one coming. And as did it, all the listeners. I can't even believe you let me do this with you.

That's how I feel. I got nothing going on. No, but it's weird. Is it? Yeah, because you're like, you do this. Yeah, but. And I'm just like this guy. Well, you're a guy I met a long time ago.

And when we met, my sister was like, this guy's cool. and then I watched you ask Jenny Lewis for a picture. That's ridiculous. And I was like, this guy's not cool. And then I hung out with the rest of the day and I was like, this guy's cool. Now we got Jenny Lewis as a listener. That's our show today. This is working it out.

Working it out for a cause I can predict is going to be to the Ally Coalition because Jack and I have been raising money for the Ally Coalition for many, many years, along with Rachel Antonoff and many others. Jack Antonoff is a musician who has a new album, in stores now. Stores don't exist, but online stores and Spotify and YouTube and he also has some videos.

Some of them directed by his brilliant wife, Margaret Qualley. And that's going to do it for working it out. We'll see you next time. Oh my God, I forgot about pizza. Working it out because it's not done. Working it out. That's going to do it for another episode of Working It Out. You can follow Jack Antonoff on Instagram at Jack Antonoff.

You can follow Bleachers, the band, at Bleachers Music. Our producers of working it out are myself along with Peter Salomon, Joseph Barbigley, Mabel Lewis, and Gary Simons. Sound Mixed by Shub Sarin. A lot of sound mixing today. Hope you enjoyed it. Supervising engineer Kate Balinski, special thanks to Jack Antonoff, and Bleachers for their music.

Bleachers, Nune. album, Everyone for 10 minutes, comes out this Friday. It is so good. May 22nd. Set a reminder on all of your music services. It's an incredible album. I think it's an instant classic. Special thanks, as always to my wife, the poet, J. Hope Stein, and our daughter, Una, who built the original Radio Fort made of pillows. And thanks most of all, of course, to you who are listening. If you enjoy this show, please rate and review us on Apple Podcast. It helps us out well over 200 episodes at this point. Thank you, everyone. Tell your friends. Tell your friends. Tell your enemies. Tell your friends who forget pizza. Just say, remember pizza. You got to remember pizza.

And it's a metaphor, really, for just remembering all the positive things, which hopefully, in your mind, is our podcast. Thanks, everybody. We'll see you next time.