Mike Birbiglia's Working It Out - 215. Phil Lord and Chris Miller: These 2 Dorks Made Every Movie You Love

Episode Date: June 8, 2026

Filmmakers Phil Lord and Chris Miller’s resume is a laundry list of hits: Project Hail Mary, The Lego Movie, 21 Jump Street, Spider-Man: Into the Spider-Verse, and more. Their success with projects that didn’t initially seem like good ideas has even spawned a verb in Hollywood, “to Lord and Miller” something. Now they sit down with Mike to discuss the positive and negative ramifications of that. They also discuss the test screening process of Project Hail Mary, and working with Nicolas Cage on their new series Spider-Noir. Plus, they reveal the five films that would be on the syllabus of Lord and Miller University. Please consider donating to City Year and/or Make-A-Wish Mike's tour dates: https://www.birbigs.com/tour-dates Text BIRBIGS to 917-444-7150 for updates Find Mike: Website: https://birbigs.com/ Instagram: https://instagram.com/birbigs/ Facebook: https://facebook.com/birbigfans TikTok: https://tiktok.com/@mikebirbiglia Find Phil and Chris: Instagram: Phil, Chris Hosted and Produced by Mike Birbiglia Producers: Peter Salomone, Joseph Birbiglia, Mabel Lewis, Gary Simons Sound Mixed by Shubh Saran Supervising Engineer: Kate Bilinski Video Consultant: Graham Willoughby Special Thanks: Marissa Hurwitz, Josh Upfal, David Raphael, Nina Cwik, J. Hope Stein, Oona Music: Jack Antonoff and Bleachers Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Lord and Miller has almost become like a verb in Hollywood, which you guys are probably sick of. To Lord and Miller or something? What is it mean? I don't want to know what it means. No, I've gotten those phone calls. Oh, I've gotten those phone calls. Yeah, yeah. Can you Lord and Miller this up?

We're making a movie. It's about Dixie Cops, but it's like a Lord and Miller thing. Oh, that's right. You know what I mean? The meaning like, oh, it's a piece of crap. We're making it. But if we do it make it good. It's the gummy bears movie.

It's Myers' dish soap, but we're Lord Millering it. Right. Sure, yeah. Yeah, I feel like net bad for Hollywood, for America, for the Earth. That movie. That would probably have, yeah. Those are the voices of the great Phil Lord and Chris Miller. Oh, I'm so excited.

I have seen all of these guys' movies. 21 Jump Street, 22 Jump Street, Spider-Man into the Spider-Verse, cloudy with a chance of meatballs. The Lego movie. Most recently, Project Helmerit, is the reason why I called them in said, hey, you guys want to come on the podcast? I didn't know if they'd want to come. But, alas, here we are.

We have the definitive interview of Lord and Miller. They have just made such cool movies. I've known these guys for over 10 years. Phil, years ago, came to, like, an informal reading I did of Don't Think Twice and gave notes on it before we made it. And I just think Phil and Chris are so talented. and cool, and I'm thrilled that they came on the show today. By the way, I know I've been mentioning these text message alerts.

We did our first secret text message alert pop-up show at the Comedy Studio in Cambridge. Super fun. If you want to know about these pop-up shows, text berbig's to 917-44-7-14-7-150. So you can be the first to know about upcoming little shows. Also in New York. You know, Boston, New York, different places nearby, maybe Philadelphia. Delphia, D.C. As always, check out my tour dates on Burbigs.com.

But, man, I love talking to Phil and Chris. We talk about filmmaking, working together as a team, collaboration. Nick Cage, who, of course, stars in their latest project, Spider-Noar, which is kind of amazing also. Currently on Prime. Enjoy my conversation with the great Phil Lord and Chris Miller. Writer, director, or producer, you guys. Okay. I'm going to list them.

I like war. Cloudy, not Ant, Cloudy with a chance of meatballs. 21 Jump Street. Yeah, Claudia with a chance of meatballs, too. Lego movie, 22 Jump Street, Storks, Brigsby Bear, Lego Batman, Spider-Man into the Spider-Verse. Lego Movie, too. The Mitchells vs. the machines. America, the Motion Picture, Cocaine Bear, Spider-Man across the Spider-Verse, Straes, Loves Freakies, Project Helmerie, Sheep Detectives, Spider-Man, Beyond the Spider-Verse, and Spider-N-War.

There you go. No flaws. Are you guys going to take a vacation? A flawless filmography? You do one day. It's eclectic? Yeah. Like when do you get a break?

What is this? We have no title vanity. Stop that. No title is silly enough. It's too silly for our filmography. I don't know. When was the last time we took a break? We took like three weeks off after across the Spider-verse and then jumped right back.

What did you do? when you took a break. What is that look like? It's literally like bumming around the house and like being on the internet. Like super boring. Sleeping. Trying to keep two months off.

And of course you'll probably write or conceive of something because your brain probably won't stop. It will never stop. No, what happens is like we run out of homework and then like new business like floods into my brain. You've got to be the same way. Yeah, yeah, similar. Yeah.

But I don't have this many things. I mean, this is so many things. Too many things. This is unbelievable. It's too many. It's shocking. I know. Raising a family.

You guys must have so much stress over matching yourself. The quality of your own movies. I would say that we, like, that is the thing that stresses us out the most. And we are the hardest on our own projects, much harder than any, like, studio executive ever is because we are always chasing excellence. We don't always get there, but we're always unsatisfied. We're the only people ever to continue mixing a film after it was in theaters. No, of course.

I have this all the time when I watch, first of all, when I watch movies, and I adore your movies, and I've probably done this with your movies, it's like, I watch for ADR moments where they snuck in a piece of dialogue that's like, oh, that's another laugh line. They snuck in in post. On his back. Yeah, they put it on his back. He's walking away from camera. You can't see his mouth.

And they put in one extra last joke. John Mullaney laugh line or whatever it is. Yeah. And you go like unbelievable. God bless you. You're trying to get just an extra little something. Yeah. And in shows and movies where like all the characters are wearing masks over their mouth all

the time. It's basically a green light. Right. But you get to do because a lot of your work is just live and you do it night after night. Yeah. You must make revisions. Constant. Like,

like, show to show to show. To the point where when I do specials, it drives me crazy to do shows after I've filmed the special. Oh, yeah. Because I'm like, I have this no tag. We didn't film it. But like, you guys get to do it until the bitter end. It's true.

But it's funny, like, I've had that, I've had scripts over the years where people go, don't touch it, it's done. Kind of thing like, like, we like this. We want to make this. I'm sure you guys have that. It's like, what do you say? How do you navigate that?

Because you're never going to put it down, right? Right. And to the point where we sometimes can overbake stuff. Yeah. Has that happened? Yeah, like we had a bad cut of Hail Mary that was like kind of overworked. Really? Unwounded a little bit.

Can you tell me about it? We had it in a very bad theater. I won't say whose theater it is. But if they're listening to this, they know exactly what theater I'm talking about. Wow. But, you know, we test our movies a lot. Shots fired in all directions.

I know. Yeah. It's right. The theater is crying right now. Who has a theater? Who owns a theater? You know. You know.

You get a best and best shot. It's a movie theater, not kidding, with obstructed view seats. Okay. With one third of the seats. Good clue. Good clue. Excellent. And it's haunted and you should never screen.

Wow. But we do, I mean, we, test our movies with friends and family and way more than anybody I know we do we did 13 test screenings of Projectale Mary yeah maybe 11 11 we got in the double digits and this was one where I can't remember we did like we had a great preview with an audience that was scored and then we were like let's try to beat it let's see let's do like an experimental cut yeah and the experiment failed it was what that was a good thing we added like seven minutes a stuff to try like maybe this bit works like maybe we should move this over here and i can't remember

what was there one thing that was really that really beefed it it was just more like 10 little things yeah you could just feel it just sitting there yeah it's funny like i was i went to the premiere here in new york at amc and like i was next to jormitakone who was our mutual friends the greatest love him he uh he and i were the loudest laughers we were so we were so I'm so glad. Screaming laughing during the movie. And it's interesting because it's like, it's a sneaky comedy. Because it's in the certain, through a certain lens, it's a full drama.

And through a certain lens, it's a pure comedy. I was so glad you guys were there because sometimes people don't know they're supposed to laugh. It's okay to laugh. Yes. Comedy people, though, totally understand. Do you feel like you do, are there scenes that you do to tone set in your, you? your movies early on where you go, hey, it's okay to laugh at this thing. 100%.

This part's funny. Ryan Gosling's character is funny. Yes. Sort of ridiculous. Yes. He's in trouble. Right. But it's...

Balancing that first scene was actually really hard. We wanted to let people know it was okay to laugh from the beginning when he's sort of flopping around on the ground and doesn't have control of his muscles. But then we also didn't want people to think this is like a broad slapstick movie that they can't take seriously. So the audience... We have that cut. Yeah.

The audience didn't want it to be too silly or too funny. It's the only time in our career that the audience told us to make it less funny. It's true. I didn't know what to do. The first official test screening. Because there's too many laughs. Yeah, the first official test screening, the biggest note was it's too funny. Really?

What do you do with that? I've never heard that. It's really interesting. Never. Because they want, you know, it's a dramatic story and you have to take it seriously. And we were taking it seriously. but they were like used to a sort of interstellar type tone for a space movie that is like deadly serious. I think because the Jeopardy was clear to them that when we didn't acknowledge that every once in a while they got bummed.

Where did the ambition come from to make this one of the most audacious comedies I feel like I've ever seen? No, I mean truly. I feel like it's, I don't know if there is a precedent. I would say the only thing I could think of is Tropic Thunder. Oh, right, yeah. That had a, like, massive scale. Unbelievable. Yeah.

Huge movie, huge budgets. Right. But is there any other? Like, what are the models? That movie's really naughty, right? Because it's using all of those resources for something really dopey. Well, one time I asked Ben still ago, when you did Tropic Thunder, like, how did you know how to do all those crazy? Stunts?

And it goes, well, wait, he goes, we get the people who do them in the real. You get the people who do that. It's true. That's true. They know how to do them. They do them on all the movies. Just do it just like that. Do you have that version of that?

Like, well, let's call the Apollo 13 people. Well, we had, like, Greg Frazier's, like, an amazing cinematographer who's, like, I wouldn't say known for comedy. Right. But is a very funny person. Yeah, all of our heads of departments were, like, real deal folks. Like, Charlie are a production design. with like amazing, amazing work.

And they're all like big deal, big movie people. Right. Paul Lambert are VFX supervisors. Yeah, he and Greg just like did two Dune movies and then rolled on to us. Right. What, okay, okay, so you have those types of people. So what is, I would, I, I'm trying to imagine, because you have to convince hundreds of people. First of all, the money people, people who are studio.

Then you have to convince your actors. and your crew, like, we're making this. And like, what does that speech look like for this movie? Wouldn't it be great if we gave like a 10, like, this is what we're doing, folks. To everyone to rally them. And if the speech works, the movie gets made, and not they walk away.

No, I mean, this wonderful thing is that they're also fired up. Luckily, we had the book, right, which is funny and emotional. And that was like, that was the big thing. We were like, we wanted to be funny, but we want to winter to last. and cry in the same movie. And so we have to, we have to take it seriously, but we want to have fun while we're doing it. Don't you think there was like a magic to,

like the fact that we built so much stuff? Yeah. And that a lot of these crews like are accustomed to like having like half a set or like a proxy set and a lot of like blue screen. Right. And so like now it's like, oh no, we're like building a fort. That's the energy.

We're building a fort in the kitchen. Right. And we're getting to play in the fort. That's what it is. You know, the best part was with the puppet there, like, you could really see when it was working. Right. Everyone would, like, gather around the monitor and be like, oh, wow, this is really working. Like, there was the scene where Grace and Rocky really meet for the first time,

and Rocky sort of imitating the moves that Grace does, and they start dancing and doing these little poses and they copy each other. Oh, my God. And we would pitch different moves for Ryan to do. And then the puppeteers had to try and copy whatever it was. that he was doing and you would watch it on the screen and everybody all the crew would like just go like oh my god because you could feel it was there was something special there your like lordin miller has almost become like a verb in hollywood which you guys are probably to lord and miller something

what is it mean i don't want to know what it means no i've gotten those phone calls oh i've got those phone calls yeah yeah can you lord and miller this up we're making a movie it's about dixie cups but it's like a lord and miller Oh, that's right. You know what I mean? The meaning like, oh, it's a piece of crap. But if we do it, make it good. It's the gummy bears smoothie. It's Myers, it's Myers dish soap, but we're Lord Millering it.

Right, sure we are. Yeah. Taking a seemingly terrible idea. Well, because the Lego movie. Because the Lego movie, yes. Because of Legam movie, you guys broke the door open for people being like, no, no, no, but it's good. It could be good.

It's possible for it to be good. It's the Reese's Peanut Butter Cup. I feel like net bad for Hollywood, for America, for the earth. That movie. Probably have, yeah. It's like, the history books will be like,

this was the beginning of the end. Yes, because of them, we had the Velvita shells and cheese movie and now what are we doing? But that's also where Barbie came from, probably. Right,

probably. That's a good movie. That was a good movie. I mean, there's been a few since then that are great. Yeah. But there's a lot of bad ones also.

But then there's a lot of bad movies generally, and I comfort myself with this thought, which might not be true. which there's a lot of bad movies in the past. We just don't know about them. That's right. Right.

They were like lost to history and. Yeah. We don't talk about them. We don't talk about them. We just talk about the good ones. We only talked about them when they have funny names like Breakint II Electric Bugallel. I mean,

yes, but that's, but I like that. But Breaking One was great. By the one is great. Breaking Two. I really like. I still really like. Oh, you still like Breaking Two. I still like it.

They have to save the Community Center, guys. They have to save the Community Center. What are the Lord and Miller canon films for Lord and Miller? university. What are the five films? Oh, that you have to. That would be on the syllabus.

Yeah, yeah. Okay, we always talk about thief. That one I always talk about. Harold and Maud. Oh, yeah. We always talk about. Boy, that's, the driver was one that was like a big thing. I'm trying to think of what else is.

The jerk. The jerk. Especially the first two thirds. Yes. So the first two thirds, he's just a total sweet. And you can watch that movie a zillion times. And then the last like 10, 15 minutes, he becomes like a rich asshole. He becomes the jerk.

And it's a little, you notice like your, like that movie gets shorter there. It gets like slows down a tiny bit. Well, there's also a thing with with the jerk where it's like, there's like 10 movies that are the jerk like elf is the jerk. Yes. Yeah, like the idiot. A dummy. A big sweet dummy.

A nineie dummy who wants to be, just wants to be nice in the hard, cruel work. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. All right, you two more, I think. Okay. Okay. Rififi. Oh, right. Which is this, like, French, like, maybe the first heist movie. I was going to say, close encounters, I feel like has such a relationship with your movie. Oh, for sure. I mean, there is, like, that... It's also, that movie's so handsome. Right. You know. Yeah, there's, I mean, there's, that whole era of, like, science fiction movie making that doesn't feel like science fiction just feels like movies like movies like 18

and closing cameras that that's what right for me that's what was so exciting about your movie is you know obviously the story and the cinematography and the performances in the direction but then like oh my god you can still make a movie like that's like whimsical and futuristic and funny I don't know why more dramas aren't funny I know. And more comedies don't make you cry, to me, like, when did those things, like, get uncoupled, you know? I also feel like an audience,

if you make them feel two different feelings in the same movie, whether it's scared and excited or happy and sad or laughing or surprised or whatever it is, if you feel two different things deeply in the same movie, you're like, what an experience I had and people go and tell people see it. What is the advantage of having, two directors and when does it get sticky?

The biggest fight we ever had was on a beach in Puerto Rico on 22 Jump Street and we couldn't come to terms of like should the camera be here or should it be like 30 feet down the beach? Oh yeah. Remember? And it was like we were just stressed like exhausted da da da da da da.

But like there are some things that are like intuitive that you can't really reason out, and then they're permanent. Like where that camera is, like you can't, like, do shoot two versions. Right. So that is a pain in the neck sometimes, but ultimately you both know that, like,

it doesn't really matter. Right. You know, and I would say that, like, the advantage is your best friend who's, like, the most brilliant person you've ever been around. Yeah. He's, like, they're constantly making the movie better.

You also can look at each other when you see a take and be like, like, it needs to be faster, right? Or whatever, but you look at the other person, you're like, yeah, yeah, yeah. You don't feel so crazy. Yeah. You have someone right there to be like,

am I crazy or do I feel like we need to do this? And you're like, exactly, let's do it. The other thing is that, like, so much of this work, you're an improviser, like, comes from interacting with somebody else. And that the idea that it's going to, like, come down like a thunderbolt from heaven into someone's brain, like onto the like under the screen like that's not true that that's what i always tell people even if you don't want to do improv take an improv class yes because the read an improv book

you know like the ucb level two sorry the principles of it are so crucial yes for making these things because if if you don't have them if there's no yes and spirit the thing can grind into a halt. I also think that like a movie is not the same as like a speech or a monologue, you know, it is, you're creating the conditions for the audience to project the story onto the screen. Yeah. So you are essentially in dialogue with someone. You're communicating or trying to give them the tools to tell a story. You are not talking. Yes. And so that's why like to me it's a fallacy to think that like a singular person generates that material. Yeah, I saw a Daniel Day Lewis interview the other day where they asked him like,

what do you need from the director? And he's like, I just need the conditions to take chances. Wow. Yeah. That's true. And I think that is, you know, a big deal for an actor is that you have to trust that your director is not going to put your... Use all your worst stuff.

Yeah. That you have to be able to fall on your face sometimes and push it too far and be like, whoops, okay, that one's like, never mind, we won't do that. And if you're not pushing it too far and failing a couple of times, you're not going to do anything interesting. A lot of times we'll start the day by saying, like, okay, let's make some mistakes. Yeah. Like the first two takes, like, let's just do a bad one.

Yeah. Just to get, just to like make it okay. Yeah. Do you roll long? Yes. So long. Because I feel like it, when I'm watching it, like, I'm like, oh, they totally rolled long. Yes.

And then Ryan did this thing, and it's really interesting. And then they made that the thing. Exactly. Roll out on a 40-minute tape. For sure. Do you roll early, too? Yes. Sometimes, like, we basically, on the animated stuff, like, you're in the booth,

like, the mic's always open. Yeah. No matter, because you might just be reading it. Your microphone. Yeah, yeah. So the actor can hear you. No, the actor's microphone. Like, we're never, there's never a cut.

Like, everything's on the record. so that we can just have, you know, if I'm... In a little laugh. In other words, you never are cut. Right. We're never cut. On an animated movie, we're never cutting.

We're recording the voice actor. And we're definitely on a movie like Hill Mary are rolling as early as you can and just getting... Because you don't want to miss a natural moment. Do you have a fear of the AI of it all in this space? In this movie space? I wouldn't say a fear.

No. I'm not creatively interested in it. That's the main thing. You know, like, however powerful it is or isn't, I'm more interested in what human beings can do, their own fingerprints. And I think that stuff's going to have much more value. That's why I'm not so scared.

Yeah. Because the more of it, the more ubiquitous, the synthetic stuff is, the more valuable than not synthetic stuff is. Right. It's like if there's junk food everywhere, and then there's a fresh apple. Someone's going to eat the apple.

And yeah, and the apple's going to be more expensive. Yeah, yeah, totally. It's going to be like, and it's going to be more meaningful to people when they see it because it's going to feel more special. But I don't know. Are you afraid? I cut you off. No, I just think that it's sort of the average of things that have come before it.

It's not, that's, you know, you put in a prompt and it takes from everywhere and just makes a generic average version of something. Yeah. And so you have to keep trying to do something new, but that's what we're always trying to do anyway. I was watching the first episode of Spider-Noir. It's so funny. It's on Amazon Prime. Yes.

It's brilliant. And it's in black and white, or at least the version I saw was in black and white. It's in both versions. Yeah, you get to pick. Yeah. And it should be black and white. It's great in black and white. And then we came up with this fake monoculars.

true hue to make it sound like it was like an old process yeah like an old format from like the 40s like three strip technical color or something the color is actually very like uniquely color timed and very like bespoke and it's based on the black and white version and like it's as if we added color to the black and white version it's just to put in perspective it's the nick cage character yes but live action yes live action In the 1930s, in black and white, though, you can watch it in color. Yeah. It is pure Nick Cage, classic movie star.

Oh, yeah. And it gets more. His freak gets freakier as the season goes on. He had this idea that he, once he was bitten by a spider, which had happened way years earlier, he started to be more spider than person. And his home base was to sort of be like an insect. and he had to retrain himself how to be a person. And we thought that was a really crazy and Nick Cage and wonderful idea.

And so it makes the show, there's like a weird, like horror element to it. But also from time to time when he's alone, he just goes like, and he like sleeps on a bed like this. And you're like, what's the only make would do that. Some of the appeal of Nick. Right. As a human being, it's just like, oh. What?

No one else would have. He's from space and he's here cosplaying as a person. I'm convinced that there are movies he's in that absolutely do not work without him and them. Totally. Probably most of them. I rewatched Moonstruck recently.

I'm like, I'm not sure this makes sense without Nick Page. He's like, I lost my hand! You're like, what? What is the plot of this movie? I don't know. What is it? He's so committed.

He's so convinced of these, like, approaches, maybe that he, like, you buy them too? How do you speak to the studio? I feel like... I think everyone is curious because you guys, you know, there's the famous George Clooney phrase, I make one for them, I make one for me. It seems like you guys make them all for you. How do we get away with it?

What kind of say, golly? We make them for them for them to. too, right? Yeah, yeah. It's full. Right, if you're making the Lego movie, it's not like this one's my personal. No, we're trying to have our cake and eat it too all the time, I guess.

Right? And I think with like a movie like this, like Hail Mary or a show like Noir, we're never trying to not delight the audience, you know? Right. We're always trying to deliver for them. And if we deliver for the audience, then, you know, we're delivering for the studio. Right. And so...

Do you have to remind them of that in the process sometimes? Like, hey, we're same team. Like, we're all trying to delight the audience. Yeah, and sometimes it takes like a test screening to demonstrate it. Right. Because it's, we're all just guessing. You know, at the end of the day, like, you put it in a theater. Like, what's wild about this movie, having seen it with so many people is everyone around the world laughs in the same spots.

You know, they like, they tear up in the same spots. Yeah. And if there's some, you know, suggestion that... that feels like off key to us that's coming from like a studio partner where we're, you know, we say like, we generally we try everything. Yeah. You know, so like, why not? Let's give it a whirl, you know?

Sure. And then we put it up, and then the audience tells you. Do you guys, I feel like you are part of the movement, and there's a handful of directors in this right now, like young filmmakers who are carrying the torch for film. Because a lot of people are like, films over. You know what I mean? I definitely don't believe films over.

America comes along. You go like, oh, no, no, no. Not only is making $100 million, it's also amazing artistically. Like, what do you guys find that you have to make the case for film? There's certainly like a feeling of wanting to deliver for the audience when they show up. But like feeling like we want them to feel rewarded. and certainly the compounding effect of that is they show up, they're rewarded, and they walk through the lobby,

and they see the posters, and they go, what should we see next weekend? What do you say to people who are like, well, television's better than movies? Sometimes. I mean, movies and TV are, like, becoming more similar. Like, the quality of cinematography and storytelling that's happening in television is,

is really good. And sometimes it's more expensive and more elaborate storytelling than what you can do in a movie. One of the things I love and miss sometimes in television is the spontaneity and freshness of making something every week. Like we started our career on television comedies and sitcoms.

Like a few multi-cams where like... What did you work on? There was a show night. Oh, some big shows, Mike. Ten years of failed sitcoms. And then we finally worked on it. Everyone's heard of the Luis Guzman sitcom, Louis. Or Zoe dot, dot, dot, formerly Zoe Duncan, Jack, and Jane.

Or there was a John Stamos show called Jake in Progress. Jake in Progress. Yep, I know all of them. Method and Red, the Method Man Redman show. But we also, the first time we worked on a show that wasn't canceled immediately. was how I met your mother. The first season of my own. And it did so well that we quit.

That's right. We just didn't know how to be part of a winning team. We left to make Clarey with a chance of meatballs. Oh, wow. Yeah, it was, we had written this script, and then we got the opportunity to direct it. And at the end of the first season, we're like, sorry, guys,

this was the first sitcom that seemed like it was actually going to be a success and that everyone was great. We created that show, proud New Yorkers, let us out of our deal. But yeah, it was like that thing of like show night where you're like you've loaded the audience in like here's the script and you've got like four hours to shoot something. Yeah. And then you have like of, you know, like a week or two to cut it together. And then it just airs.

Yeah. He's so fun and fresh. And I, I, it's like doing a podcast or something, you know. Yeah. Well, first of all, your careers are so unrelatable. Like, like beyond. Like your mom and I. who both directed movies, walked out of this movie,

and Yarmma goes, we're never going to make a movie like that. That's not true. No, no. Not that we can't make a good movie, or a great movie, but a $200 million movie that takes place in future, in space,

it's just not going to happen, right? Maybe that's, yeah, I challenge you. Okay. To do that. Take away this challenge. You've got so many, you've got three decades, productive decades left.

Take away this challenge. Take away this challenge. I want to say, I want to ground this, right? So you're a kid, you're watching Lord Miller, and working it out, and you go like, how could I ever do that? Those guys made a $200 million movie in space.

Like, what is step one? I think someone is watching this, listening to this, and going, like, those two dorks did that? Anyone. I can do that. Literally anyone. I'm thinking that.

Yeah, exactly. I mean, it started with making student films. That's how it really started. Sure. And then getting those student films and the eyes of someone who could give us a job. And you guys were in school. In college together.

We were in college together at Dartmouth. Dartmouth, okay. Like, not even studying. Is it a community college? Community college. Yeah. In Dartmouth, Oregon. There it is.

That's it. You got it. Nothing gets past this. No, we were, like, making, like, look, cartoons in our dorm room. And then we were just, just from, we were, like, this is how broke, like, our early work was. We did a, we did a short film when we first got out to L.A.

that we, that we shot at the office where we were working in the middle of the night, using a little hand puppet called Mr. Gary. We got out of the Archie McPhee's catalog. And it was a stop, it was a pixelated film. which is like real people but in stop motion. Okay. Which we did basically by stopping and starting the video camera really fast. Oh my God.

And then we decided to make animated mouths. Wow. But we would be built them out of cardboard and you would put a little tab and you'd put the different mouth shape in your mouth. You would bite it? And it would have like a smile and a mouth that was. This is crazy. So it was like South Park Mounds on real people.

Yes. It didn't work. It was bad. Mr. Gary will work someday. Right. I believe Mr. Gary is a future. Maybe there's someone out there listening to this. They're going to make a Mr. Gary.

I think Peacock is looking for things. For sure. But then they did let us make a thing with a small-ish budget that was a fake toy commercial for action figures based on the Bronte Sisters. Bronte Sisters Power Dolls. And that was the first thing that we ever shot. The big gag is they transform into a Bronte Soros together.

Spoiler. That is so funny. It was educational. It was for educational content for Saturday morning. Wow. And that actually was a thing that gave us an opportunity to do more. They call it a calling card in the biz. So you sent that out the same way that Matt and Trey sent out their Christmas.

So theirs was longer and better. It became a hit show that was on, we'll be on television forever. Yeah, yeah, forever. Well, famously, Matt and Trey, if people don't know, they made like a video Christmas card. And they sent it. And they just made it on their own. Yeah. And from Colorado.

And they just sort of sent it to everyone. And then people were like, this is good. Yeah. You guys saw that in college. Saw that in college. You saw it in the South Park thing. You were doing your own animations. And but their success, I think, was helped us because that was at that time, they're like,

South Park became a big hit right as we moved down. People mistook us for the next. next Matt and Trey. And they lost, for 10 years, people lost money making that bad. That is really funny. It's true. And so we, but we were able to, like, get jobs and work on sitcoms and fail our way upwards on the, on the sitcom writer's path. What would someone do now?

Because it feels to me like there's less stair stepping jobs. Yeah, for sure. There's definitely fewer, like, like, like, comedy staff. jobs. Yeah. Right. Because, you know, those shows were, you were doing 23 episodes a season. Right.

And you needed at least 15 writers to, like, be able to, they have one in, you're shooting one and you're prepping the next one and someone's got to be working on the next week's one. And so you need a bunch of bodies there. And it's happening 23 a season and it's every year. And now it's like eight episodes every two years. Like TikTok and Instagram and like doing, like, making videos with your parallel. old team or something.

I do think that's the, I think that's, that's the, that's the, that's what's been democratized is, is, it's a lot easier to, like,

use your phone and, and get a, a nice, uh, microphone and then make your own things. What's missing, maybe, I don't know this,

but what we got from those rooms was just like, the expertise being passed down. Right, right. You know, so like, like, our first, like, yeah,

and our first, and our first, and our first, and how our room works. Yeah. Which is also maybe like not, not, people maybe don't need to know that anymore. But like, our first job was on this show called Zoe, Duncan Jack, and Jane.

And it was, and this Pete Aronson and Mike Langworthy were the showrunners. And they like gave us ground rules on the first day. That's like, we used forever. One of them was like no stinky cheese face when someone makes a pitch. Oh, interesting. Like you can't, like, you have to feel comfortable. pitching something even if it doesn't work. That's super smart.

Right? So you can be like, mm-hmm. Yeah. Like just embrace it. Don't judge anything. Just like take the baton and like build up the idea. Don't pitch up.

Then have a super awkward silence. I always think about it as like use yes and something. Yes. Until it dies on its own. Exactly. Yep. That's it. You don't have.

You're not there to like evaluate the thing. It will just, it will evaluate itself. And then don't pitch. problems but pitch solutions. Like if you have a problem, like, don't be like, this doesn't work. You're like, that doesn't help you. Be like, think about a way that you would solve it and go like, I was thinking that here

this, we could do something better if we did this. And then like, okay, that's helpful. You're so much better at that than I am, by the way. Interesting. Pitching solutions. That is not true. Sometimes I get the problem just gets so loud in my head. Well, what's amazing about pitching solutions?

Because I have, you know, I'm doing readings of the next movie I'm writing right now. And I'll have readings. and someone will go, you know, right at this moment, it could be this, this, this. And those aren't probably what I'll do. Right. But it's somehow it sparks an idea that works for you and your thing. Exactly. It's kind of amazing.

I mean, and that's, and for a writer, it's usually better. But when you get a note from an executive, that's like, what if you did this, you have to go back and go like, okay, they're pitching this thing that I don't think works. but they're highlighting a problem. They're trying to solve a problem that they're having, but this is their way of solving it with this idea that doesn't work. But it then, like you say, activates your brain going like, like, that doesn't work for me, but this other solution would. And something about it is, it's better than just being like,

ma' don't like it. Yeah. The meh, the meh, as you say, it's fear. Yeah. Yeah. Right? I'm going to be embarrassed. we're going to bomb.

Yeah. You know, and I think, or like when you're, even when you're hearing that stuff, you can get chicken to face the flaws in your own material, right? Oh, yeah, yeah. It's contagious. Yeah, for sure. So, like, once you, once, it took a long time for me to learn that, like, that was valuable feedback, even if it was in the package of, like, something really negative.

I also learned to laugh when people got very up. upset. Do you know Pam Brady? No, no. Pam Brady's an amazing writer and she used to laugh super hard when the studio would get upset because she was like, they've spent so much money. They're so on the hook for this. It's so funny that they're upset and that they gave all these notes. Like think of that, like, how stressed they are. We get the joy of like working together and like writing new stuff to like solve the problem, but they're just go home and they're worried. And I'm

I was like, that's so smart, like, to enjoy. It's like you have to enjoy when you bomb or like a joke doesn't land. You have to kind of like go like, that's funny that it didn't work. I'll fix it now. Right. But like. It's almost like a Buddhist approach to like severe problems. Right.

Artistically. And you can't be scared of that. This is outside myself. And you can't be playing never to lose. You have to understand that like we are going to do some bad stuff. And it's going to bomb and it's going to be, like, embarrassing, but we'll fix it. Like, that's part of the process. We work with this woman, Lindsay Duran, who produced Sheep Detectives.

And she is, like, a professional notes giver. And she was foisted on us on Claudia with a chance to meetballs. And we're like, oh, I don't know about this lady. And then she, like, just, like, laid into the story. But in the most loving way. And we ended up loving her. and then working with her on every single project we've ever done. Her notes on 21 Jump Street were we had to read the script.

She goes, I only have two notes. Every character needs to be better and every scene needs to be better. And then she goes, page one. Oh, that's so good. And she also, there was another thing. By the way, one of the hardest I'd laughed at a movie ever, 21 Jump Street in the theater. It was after we had fixed all the characters. And then there was another time we gave her a script,

She was like, I am so honored that you are comfortable enough with me to show me a script in this condition. Oh, my God. And so then from there on, we would say, like, get ready to be honored because this is a very, you're going to feel so honored by seeing something this rough. That's the main, like, fulcrum of our career, I think, is that we learned to embrace that process instead of be defensive about it. That's amazing. Like, when you're pitching a movie. and you're in the room pitching movie. They're buying you.

They're not buying the movie. Totally. For sure. And it's like, why are they, why are they buying you guys? We do get interested in things that seem hard and they're like, there's like, you're going, I don't know, but there is a way. There's one way to do this. Right.

But it has to be done specifically or else it will really suck. And then we get really interested in that and the problem solving of that. So we often will take on something like the Lego movie, which would be like, our first instinct was when they asked us to do a Lego movie, we said no. And then we said no again. And then we were like, but we love Lego.

It's a great, like, creative tool. It's engineering and creativity. And like the way that my son plays with the Lego is like he'll put the little Batman in the ship with Chubacca and they'll fly around. It doesn't matter. So you should have a thing.

We bring all these different genres together. We went to lunch, remember? And we were like, if you were going to, if there was like a, like a Jedi of creativity, what would the five lessons be? Right. You would teach people. Right.

You would teach a neophyte. And then we kind of came up with like five things, five lessons that basically are underneath that movie. I can't remember them. We can watch a movie. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Wow.

are you more friends or more coworkers? And do you have to do maintenance on your friendship? That's a great question. We do have to do maintenance on our friendship. And sometimes we like drift into just being coworkers. And then we have to like, go like, hey. But we do, we have a couple of things. We share Clippers tickets for the basketball.

We had to like make dates for ourselves. So that we can, you know, remember that we're friends also. I love that. And it's hard. we have to concentrate to ask each other about our not work lives. That's right. Because there's so much homework. We picked jobs where we have homework forever.

Right. On the weekends, every night, we're like, we should be doing something. We should be rewriting this scene. We should be. Right. There's also, when you direct a movie, there's no off, really. Oh, my God. It's like your weekends, your inboxes are probably stacked up.

Oh, yeah. And we're doing like a scout or a pre-examination. or a pre-shoot or something. Do you set boundaries on the weekend? Do you ever take a day off when you're shooting a movie? Like when you're shooting Project Helmer, which is probably... We were shooting that in London. Yeah, you have to pace yourselves.

Like, especially we're like getting along on a two. That was a hundred and two days shoot. Unbelievable. Which is just like it's exhausting. And the days were like, there were tough because it's like puppets and wires and like a lot of, you know, experimentation and... I had to start like physically taking care of myself. Like I had to stop drinking.

I had to like get more sleep. I had to like touch my toes in the morning and do stuff just to like be able to do a good job. It's exhausting. At the end of the day, we'd like drive home from the sound stages and be like, I am so tired, but we got great stuff today. Again, we got great stuff again. And so every day there was like a little nugget of like, okay, it was hard but it was worth it. We had a lot of fun today, and it was exhausting, but we got to play around with one of the most talented actors alive and a puppet.

The last thing we just do is if there's a nonprofit that you like to contribute to, we will contribute and then we'll link to them in the show notes, encourage others to contribute. Oh, that's great. Well, we just did a benefit for City Year, which is a great program for teaching. Oh, yeah, City Year. That's a great one.

My wife's on the board of Make a Wish for Los Angeles. And so I'm always trying to hype up the Make a Wish, which is something we can all get behind. Okay. Well, we will contribute to cityyear.org as well as Make a Wish. And since there's two of you, you've got two non-profit. Yes, exactly. No, no, it's a whole, the rules are different today. This is...

We're known for breaking rules, mine. This is the Lord of Melrose. version of working it out for a cause. You Lord and Miller did it once again. Thanks for doing this show. And I mean, I'm thrilled that you came. And I'm in awe of everything you guys do. Ridiculous. Likewise.

Working it out because it's not done. Working it out. That's going to do it for another episode of Working it out. You can follow these guys on Instagram. Phil is that Phil. Lordy Chris is at Chris Miller Project Kilmerys in theaters now Spider-Douin are streaming on Prime

You can watch this one on YouTube By the way I noticed we have 75,000 subscribers on YouTube and then I saw somebody had got to 100,000 subscribers and they got some kind of YouTube plaque That's what I want That's what I need in my life, a YouTube plaque

For the studio Throw that right up on the wall I don't even know if that's if you get that for 100,000 subscribers. But if so, we want it. We want that plaque. Check out berbig's.com to sign up for the mailing list. Get your text message alerts.

The producers of working it out or myself, along with Peter Salomon, Joseph Barbiglia, Mabel Lewis, and Gary Simons, sound mixed by Shib Sarin, supervising engineer, Kate Balinski. Special thanks. As always, to Jack Antonoff and Bleachers for their music.

They're on tour now. Play Madison Square Garden. Special thanks, as always to my wife, the poet Jay Hope Stein, author of Little Astronaut, And of course, our daughter, Una, who built the original radio for made of pillows. By the way, this is a small independent production. And if you want to advertise on this podcast, email, Working It Out Pod at gmail.com because you feel like the people who listen to this show might want to know about your little business or company or thing.

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And then you don't get ads. So there's a lot of different options here. You can email us to be an advertiser, or you could pay us to never hear those ads. The knife cuts both ways. Thanks, most of all, you were listening. tell your friends, tell your enemies, tell Nick Cage. I mean, come on.

If you happen to see Nick Cage, he's walking down the street, and how could you miss him? I mean, he's one of the more recognizable people in culture. Nick, I hear you do a lot of interesting things to prepare for a role. Have you considered listening to Mike Barbigley's working out? It's a podcast where Mike Perbiglia talks with comedians, writers, and filmmakers about the creative process. I think you might enjoy it.

Phil and Chris are on it sometimes. Once. And by the way, Nick Cage, if you're ever in Brooklyn, and feel free to stop by the Working at Out Studio. We'd love to have you. Thanks, everybody. We're working out. We'll see you next time.