Mike Birbiglia's Working It Out - 216. Wanda Sykes: Mike's Dream Guest

Episode Date: June 15, 2026

Wanda Sykes is one of Mike’s original dream guests for the podcast. Now, on the heels of her new Netflix special, Legacy, Wanda talks with Mike about how they both started in DC, and why Wanda left her job at the NSA to pursue a career in stand-up comedy. Wanda tells the story of how she moved from the writers' room of The Chris Rock Show to acting in sketches, how she got tricked into auditioning for Curb Your Enthusiasm, and the weird requests she gets from Curb fans. Plus, new jokes from Mike and Wanda. Please consider donating to the Ruth Ellis Center. Mike's tour dates: https://www.birbigs.com/tour-dates Text BIRBIGS to 917-444-7150 for updates Find Mike: Website: https://birbigs.com/ Instagram: https://instagram.com/birbigs/ Facebook: https://facebook.com/birbigfans TikTok: https://tiktok.com/@mikebirbiglia Find Wanda: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/IamWandaSykes/ Website: https://wandasykes.com Hosted and Produced by Mike Birbiglia Producers: Peter Salomone, Joseph Birbiglia, Mabel Lewis, Gary Simons Sound Mixed by  Ben Kruse Supervising Engineer: Kate Bilinski Video Consultant: Graham Willoughby Special Thanks: Marissa Hurwitz, Josh Upfal, David Raphael, Nina Cwik, J. Hope Stein, Oona Music: Jack Antonoff and Bleachers Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

You've talked about in your special about all the hard things about getting older, but what's a surprisingly pleasant thing about getting older? Ooh. It's for me, when I say I don't want to do something, I just don't do it. Sure. Yeah, right? Now it's like, no, I don't want to do that. I don't feel like I have to, you know, appease other people.

I can be more honest. And yeah. That is the voice of the great Wanda Sykes. Wanda Sykes, everybody. She is a legend. I have wanted her to come on this podcast since we started it almost exactly six years ago. I was like, I think I made a list of people who would be my dream guest for this show. And she was like on the 10 or whatever.

And somehow, six years later, we got her. I'm very excited. She, of course, is one of the great stand-up comedians. She was one of the original writers in the Chris Rock Show in the 90s. She and I both started out in D.C. Talk about that today. We even work out some jokes. It's sort of a dream sequence of things that happened today.

By the way, thanks to all the working at out premium subscribers. It is building and building. We actually just came up with a new idea the other day called Suggestion Box. We're going to do an episode called Suggestion Box. If you email your audio voice recorded suggestion for the show, that thing that you're most critical about with working it out, the thing you like and the thing you like most about the show, and then what you would suggest we do differently.

Email that to Working It OutPod at gmail. And we're going to have just an episode where we have, we frankly discuss, uh, what, what could we do? What could we not do? What are our limitations and what are the possibilities? And then we're going to put it out there for the working it out premium subscribers. We just did one with our, my favorite improviser, Liz Allen. She was the improv coach for Don't Think Twice.

And we had a great one with her recently. That's over at working it out. premium. If you sign up on Apple Podcasts, it's $4.99 a month, and you get no ads whenever you listen to the podcast. So if you hate ads, that is the service for you. By the way, you can watch the full episode of this podcast on YouTube. Oh, also the video is now on Spotify. That's a whole thing, apparently. So if you want to watch the video on Spotify, it's over there too. And apparently coming soon on Apple Podcasts as well, the video. So stay tuned for all that. We're just doing the show. We will continue to do the show as best we can, and we're just going to try to

roll with the punches various mega businesses at Apple and Spotify and all these places that are clearly trying to monetize in like a zillion different ways that I'm sure doesn't benefit anyone except themselves. But we just love doing our show. That's the most important thing. We really appreciate you listening and watching. I'm really excited. to bring this talk with Wanda Sykes to you today. We talk about her new special, which is called Legacy. It's on Netflix. We talk about her coming out of the closet many years ago.

We talk about how before she did comedy, she worked at the NSA of all places. Just a fascinating life story and incredible career. Enjoy my conversation with the great Wanda Sykes. I've followed you for so long, because I started as a doorperson in D.C. at the Washington, D.C. improv. I remember, because it was the late 90s,

you used to come there all the time. Mm-hmm. And do you still stop in there? Yeah, yeah. That's where I go there when I'm just putting together an hour, you know, before I take it out on the road. And then I, it's like my last stop before I shoot the special.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. room that is so the alchemy of it is just works for comedy yeah and you can't even put your finger on it no because i remember like that's where i started and then i would go like that was like the first place i played i opened for it was like 1997 i opened for chapelle okay at that point he was a headliner he was like 24 and i was like 19 and i was like oh my god this is going to be great i'm going to be great i'm going to to be great. And then I went to other clubs, I'm like, oh, okay, it's not, it's not as good.

It's not as good as good as this. Exactly. There's something about certain comedy rooms where you go, like, oh, it's friendly to comedians. And then you take a trip to like Rowanoke. Yes, and you're like, oh, right, right, this is what it's like to. Where did you start in D.C.? Yeah, start in D.C. And at that time, like I read a story where, Did you take Dave to, like, open mics when he was, like, a teenager? Every now? Right. When, um, if Dave's mom, uh, couldn't make it to the club, then he would ask me.

He said, can you just, you know, say that you're my aunt and, uh, and that, you know, like, you're my guardian tonight. And I was like, yeah, Dave, sure, whatever. Um, and also I would give him rides home. Oh, my God. Yeah, because he didn't, at that time, he was, he was. didn't live too far from me, which was weird. So you started in D.C., like, Comedy Cafe, Garvins.

What got you to do it to, like, take the plunge into doing mics? It was so bizarre how I got into it. But basically, I was bored. I was working for NSA at the time. Oh, yeah, that's an interesting thing. Yeah, I was working for NSA at the time. And I just felt like, this is not what I'm supposed to be doing. And I'm not going to retire from this.

I'm not going to work here, you know, 20, 30 years and retire. And that's it. There's got to be more to it. And I think it was K-Y-S-WK-K-Y. They were having some talent competition, whatever. And they said comedy was a category. Yeah. So I just, I said, you know, I'm going to write some jokes and try it.

Yeah. I was just that, just naive and, you know, never been to a comedy. comedy club. Yeah. I've just, you know, watched comics on TV, but never been in the, in the room. And I wrote jokes and the guys was like, yeah, I'll put you on. And it went well, Tony Woods won. Oh, nice. Yeah, Tony Woods won. But I did well, yeah, I did well enough. And Andy Evans was hosting. And he was like, who are you and where are you from? Like I never. It's like the first time you did that. Yes, that was the first time he was like, I haven't seen you in the clubs or anything. What's, who are you, you know?

And he then, you know, took me around to the clubs. Yeah. Yeah. Took me to comedy cafe, garvins. And that's when I found out that, oh, this could go horribly wrong. Right. You know. Totally.

Right, because every room is kind of different from each other. Right. When did you have a sense of like, how long did it take you to find your, voice. Oh, God. Probably right after my divorce. I was working at the Chris Rock Show, actually writing on that. And so even then, I was still doing what I thought, you know, my idea of a comic, right? Sure. I think we all kind of start out as doing either Seinfeld, Richard Pryor, You know, whoever you're watching. Yeah, whoever you're watching.

You're kind of like morph into that person. But it wasn't until after that that I said, you know what, Bump, but what am I doing? I'm going to talk about what's really happening in my life. Let me talk about me, you know. Yeah, yeah. So it's like, oh, let's talk about it. I love your special.

And it's refreshing that you're not going to the, you can't say anything anymore. trope that's in so many specials now. I don't get it. It's so strange to me. Right, because you can. You can. Yeah.

It's so odd. It's such a weird take. Yeah. To be like, to say that on a platform that literally goes to hundreds of millions of people. And also, like, I have to say, and people could probably contradict me, but like, I've never heard of Netflix even giving people a note. No. I've never heard of it.

No. And certainly not the people who are saying that. Right, exactly. Not those comics. They're not saying shit. I give them notes at all. No. I always, I go to the place of, well, what is it that you want to say?

Right. What's that thing? Yeah, what exactly? What is that thing? Yes, yeah, yeah. It must be awful. I'm like, just say it. Just whisper my ear.

Whisper my ear and then I'll tell you if it's okay. Write it down, slip it to me. And I'm sure we will go, oh, you can say that. Yeah, it would be all right. Yeah, yeah. It's a big deal. Right. You're in that great documentary outstanding on Netflix.

That's about gay and lesbian comedians and trans comedians. And you were in the closet. And then you started talking about it. And people told you not to. I don't think people told me not to. I think it was I just wasn't ready. Yeah. You know, I just wasn't comfortable enough.

Yeah. I mean, well, actually, I take that back. My mom did say, you know, don't talk about it. Yeah. Yeah. That was very little much like my dad. My dad, not with being gay, but a lot of things. A lot of things.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm sure there's other, you know, like, there's other things that my parents would probably be like, can you wait? Sure. To we out of here before you talk about stuff. Yeah. You know, yeah, and you do that. You know, respect my family. And I never want to give some, give other people.

especially people I don't know and don't care about information or just something where they can look at, you know, my family in a bad way. Right. Because that's totally not the case. Right. But you can see how people can, you know, exactly. Yeah.

Exactly. So. Now, that's how I, that was like my relationship with my daddy, never wanted me to be a comic. And it would be similar. It would just be like, don't talk about personal stuff.

And, you know, after a certain point, I feel like in comedy, you realize, like, you're not hiding anything from anybody. No. They can kind of tell what your whole deal is. But like, did your parents, would they come to your shows when you're starting out? They came to one.

Yeah. And I bombed silly. I never should have invited them because I just started out. I didn't know what I was doing. Yeah. So, I mean, it was horrible, horrible bombing. Where people like turned their chairs around, you know. You know, D.C. people, it's, yeah.

Sure. Sometimes they don't even have to boo. It's just the thing of they're just annoyed with you. Like an old woman was like, oh, God, just kind of turn her chair around. You're like, oh, okay. And I remember my mother going, don't worry about it. You have a good government job. You are good.

You don't ever have to do this again. Don't worry about it. Oh, my God. And she didn't know, like, no, this. This is, I do have to do this. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. This is the only thing I want to do. Yeah.

This is what I want to do. That is something that's really funny about stand-up is that when people don't like it, it is, it hurts so much. The thing you're describing the physicality, people just kind of turn in their truth. It's so real. To, like, speak your truth and have people turn around, there's nothing like that. No. I think it's part of the reason why comedians are so tough. Right.

Like, we're tough skinned because we live through, like, these rejections that are like, you can't compare it to anything. But it hurts. It hurts. I mean, you can't sleep. Yeah. Right. Your food tastes different.

Yeah. Your food tastes different. Yeah, yeah. No, it's your whole. Yeah, everything is. It's not until you get a good show. Yes. You're always just waiting for the next good show.

Mm-hmm. So you wrote for Chris Rock. Was that, like, you moved to New York and then was that your first writing job? Yes. Wow. Yeah, real writing job.

That's huge. I know. And do you get it from just cold submission? Do you know Chris? I opened for Chris when he, at Carolines, and he was just about to shoot Bring the Pain. Yeah. And he, you know, was like, hey, you're funny.

I really really like your stuff. I'm like, oh, wow, thanks Chris. He said, I might have something for it. you. I'm like, okay. And of course, you know, time passes and his special blows up and all. And eventually I did get a call and said, hey, Chris would like for you to submit some writing samples and I put together a packet and got the job. Wow. Yeah. What did you learn in being like in a writer's room? Everything. Really? Everything I know about TV today. and producing, I learned from being on the Chris Rock Show.

Wow. Yeah, everything. Just, you know, writing bits, writing, you know, sketches, producing pieces. Yeah. And having all those things in mind as far as, like, locations and casting, editing. You were on the show, too, right? Yeah, because I remember seeing you in sketches on the show. Right.

that was that was by accident uh well i guess just circumstance um the because we had booked a crew to shoot other pieces yeah and the producer being a good producer was like hey we have four hours left on the crew um you guys have anything anything we can shoot quickly uh like in the office we need and the two of the guys they wrote a bit video mama yeah uh where it's you know you're put a videotape in and it's someone watching your kids for you on tape. So it was like, Wanda, you do it. And I'm like, I'm not in front of camera. It's like, no, come on, do it, do it.

And it was just me, you know, going to put that down. You know, hey, where are you going? Get back here. You know, it was just me yelling at kids watching TV. Wow. And that's when they said, okay, we're going to put her in more stuff. Yeah. What do you think is like the best quality of?

of like a writer in a writer's room? I think being able to listen and just don't say no. Have a fix for it, you know? Like if you're not getting anywhere, if it's, you just keep saying no. Right. If you're trying to, you know, a joke or a bit, and if I don't get it, I'm going to ask you what is it that you're trying to do?

what's the thing? Right. Tell me what, you know, what's the, what's the thing? What's the bit? Right. And then I can help get you to where that bit is where it kind of makes sense, you know. But and that's the thing that I learned being in there because it was very collaborative. You know, Chris would come in and say, you know, I think we should have more of this in this bit.

And it's like, okay, why? Okay, I get it. Yeah. Yeah. How about we try it this way? Yeah. You know. Yeah.

One of the things that sticks out about your career is like you've been successful in comedy for so long. And like, you know, I've been in comedy like 27 years. Right. Like you see people drop out. Mm-hmm. You know, you've probably seen tons of your peers just drop out. And it's like, what do you think is part of the endurance of people in comedy who's who are able to do it so long and so well.

Other than just sticking with it, but also take some risk. Yeah. You know, right. Yeah. New jokes. A lot of people, they just, I don't know, they just got so comfortable

in that 30 minutes or whatever hour that works. Yeah. And it's like, okay, let's some growth here. Yeah. I like to think that there's growth and that my fan base can see that. They're along for the ride. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting. Like, I feel like since the 2000s, it's like a different era in comedy than it was. Like in, you know, the 80s, like Seinfeld would talk about how, like, people would have an hour and they would just tour with it for 20 years. It was just honed this hour. Right. And it's like probably around 2000 or so, it started to be like, no, no, no. what's your next hour?

Right. And it really put pressure on us, but as comics, but in some ways, it's good. It's exactly what you're saying. It's good to turn over another hour. Like, what else are you thinking about? Jay Leno would always tell me, he was like, you guys, I don't understand it.

Why, why shoot an hour? Because, you know, you could just live on that forever. Why are you doing it? I was like, it just doesn't enter, that's not what fuels me. You know, that's not my drive to keep telling, on the same joke every now and it. You know, like for me, once I shoot an hour, that material's done.

I got to, I need new stuff now. Yeah. You've talked about, in your special, about all the hard things about getting older, but what's a surprisingly pleasant thing about getting older? Ooh. It's for me, when I say I don't want to do something, I just don't do it. You know? Sure.

Yeah, right? Now it's like, no, I don't want to do that. I don't feel like I have to, you know, appease other people. I don't, yeah, I can be, I can be more honest. And, yeah, I've lost that, you know, that, that foam-mo. Yeah. Nah, I don't need to go. Yeah.

I love the line from your special. The only time white women work together is synchronized swimming. Does a line like that come to you, or are you always, like walking around with a notebook, like how do you, how do things like germinate? Oh, a lot of good lines just, they just come to me.

It was sometimes to the point where I'll call someone and say, hey, have you heard this before? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because it just came to me so easily. Keith Robinson, I do that a lot with him. Yeah. I'll call him, hey, man, does this?

And he's like, no. I haven't. And I hate, and I hate that. You thought of it. I think you thought of it. He's immediately resentful? Immediately. You've been friends with Keith forever.

Forever. Forever. I've known Keith since 87, 88. He was the one, like my first comedy friend other than, you know. You meet him in Philly Evans? No, I met him. He was in D.C. A group of Philly comics came to D.C.

And, yeah. He tried to hit on me. Sure. Sure. He is one of those people. If people haven't seen his Netflix special, it's so good. So good. He is funnier by the year and two strokes into his life. Yeah.

And it's painful to admit that he is funnier because he gives everyone else so much shit. Yep. That it's hard to give him a compliment. But he is, he's unbelievable. You're talking your special about how your wife, hates when you're at the casino because you track each other. Yeah. No, no, no.

She tracks me. Oh, she doesn't track her. I don't track her. Oh, interesting. Yeah. So she doesn't like it when you're at the casino. Why wouldn't she like you at the casino? Oh, I'm not good in the casino.

Oh, my. You lose a lot of money? Not a lot of money. Yeah. I mean, I don't lose a lot of money. Like where I'm not, you know, in church on Sunday go, hey, I'm a little short this Sunday guy. Yeah. Hey, the book says the split aces guy, you know.

You know how you feel about books and following the book. No, it's not that bad, but I do. I enjoy it. It's fun. Because, you know what? It's when I'm in there, I shut everything off. Yes. Yeah.

You're just looking at those little wheels go around. You're just waiting for the next car. It's all the lights and noise. So to me, it's a great distraction and stress relief. Right. What was your favorite and least favorite thing about improvising with Larry David on curb? My favorite thing was when I could crack him up.

Yeah. That was the best. Yeah, that laugh. I would love just watching him lose it or try not to lose it. And just breaking him was like the best for me. What was the most stressful was, he would never give me the storyline.

Oh, really? No. I know other people got to see the, you know, like the outline. I didn't get the outline. All I got was whatever information he needed for me to say in that particular scene. So I had no idea what the episode was. So he would say, okay, all I need you to say in this scene is, you got this perfume from,

or Cheryl had to pick up this perfume from someplace. Yeah. So just like little story points, but then we would just riff, you know, just improv. And get me as Larry David. I want to. Of course. You're going to be great.

I want to be great. Yeah. Right? So that was stressful. But for me, just, yeah, breaking him was the best. How did you end up on the show? Did you audition for the show? Or he just thought of you?

I was friends. I'm friends with the, it was one of the producers at the time. Sandy was a producer on the show. Sandy produced some of Chris is special, so that's how she was around. So, and we talked about how much we love the show, Curb. And she said, you'd be great on the show. Yeah. You should come over and audition. I was like, I can't audition. I was like, I'm the worst at auditioning. And I'd never get anything that I audition for. Yeah. It's just, I can't do it.

And she's like, okay, well, she said, well, you got to meet Larry one day. I said, I would love to meet him. But so she called me up. She said, hey, we're shooting around the corner at this car dealership, toy a dealership, come over and you can meet Larry. Yeah. And I was like, I'm just going to come to meet him. She said, yeah, yeah, yeah, just to meet him.

Don't worry about it. So I get over there. and there's like five black women sitting in the, you know, in the dealership. I'm like, are they just giving away Toyotas to the sisters today? I mean, is it a sale? You know, and she's like, no, no, just don't worry about them. Just, just come on that. So I walk in and Larry goes, hey, I know that tush anywhere.

And I was like, excuse me? What, you know, and it turned into we were, it was an audition. That's ridiculous. Yeah. And he goes, yeah, you, she, that's, this is who we're going with. This is an absurd story. This is who we're going with. Yeah.

That's outrageous. Yep. You got tricked into auditioning. Who gets tricked into auditioning? Right here. I've never heard of that ever. Right here. That's wild.

Yeah. And I'm, I'm grateful that she did that. Do people. Think because your character is like outgoing on that show that you'll be like that in life? Yes. Do people expect that from you? Yes. Do you find, are you disappointing to people?

Yes. Yeah. You have to explain that to people. I'm not like that. I'm not crazy like that. Yeah. There's so many times in the airport. I get it all the time in the airport.

Yeah. Hey, Wanda, cuss me out. Or, you know, come on, say something. Be mean to me. I'm like, why? I don't know you. or they're on the phone. Hey, it's my dad.

Say, call him a motherfucker. Say something like, I don't know your father. And then they end up kind of getting it out of me because I get pissed that you're asking me this. I'm like, what the hell is wrong with y'all? And that, you know, so they get a little bit of it, but it's not intentional, you know. When you do political stuff, do you ever find it splits the room? when you tour? Oh, sure.

Yeah. Yeah. Do you like it? Do you like it when a joke splits the room? I do. Because you know what you're getting when you come to my show.

Yeah. You know what you're in for. Of course. Right? So it wouldn't split the room, but let's say a little chunk, you can hear a few people getting disgruntled and like,

come on, enough for the politics. Sure. And that really annoys me when they, feel like they can bully me. You know, it's like you're doing the exact thing that we're, you know, up in arms about. You're, now you're going to tell me

what I try to dictate what I can do on my show. Right. You know, it's the whole, like, what I like supersedes what you, your, you know, your desires. It's that. It is, do you find, because you've been doing political stuff for a long time, do you find the reaction politically is more polarizing than it was 20 years ago with crowds?

Yes. Now it is. Yeah. Before, you could make jokes, but you could laugh at yourself. Yeah. Like, I could do jokes about something on the right and, all right, you know, they might not, when you're like, okay, that's a good joke. Yeah, yeah, totally.

Not going to, but okay, they're okay with it. And the same thing, I would make jokes, you know, I did jokes about Obama and people, you know, laugh, whatever. But now it is, it's different. They are just, if they're in, they are, they're in. You know, MAGA doesn't find anything funny about, you know, MAGA. They're serious. No, yeah, yeah, they seem very serious.

Do you think there's going to be, like a break of this thing? Does the fever ever break? Don't know. The fever. You know what I mean? Yeah, exactly. Like, because I, that's how I feel.

Like, I used to, I remember, like, in the 2000s, like I would do, every now and then I would do, like, George Bush joke about the Iraq war or whatever it was. And you could get people. Right. You could get people in the South or the Midwest. And it's exactly what you were describing. They would give you this look like, I don't agree with you, but that's pretty funny.

What are you going to do? That's funny. Now it's like, you don't get a lot of that look anymore. No. No. It's like, yeah, there is a thing. But I think it breaks at some point. I don't know.

I think they are so in it that it's hard to come out of it. Because now you're going to have to. admit that you, you know. Made a mistake for a lot of years. That's true. You got to admit that you were duped, that you fell for it. Right. But then maybe someone else wins in 28, and then it just becomes the kind of doubt thou not

speaketh of that one thing culturally. You know what I mean? And then we go, okay, that was a thing. But no, we have to. only do we have to speak about it. Right. It needs to be investigated. Right.

You got to reverse the corruption. Exactly. Yeah, because you have to undo the corruption. Because we can't, we can't be back in this situation again. Juan da. Just for the good country. I need you to get, I need you to get involved and fix a lot of this stuff. I got to fix a lot.

I think, you know what it is? It's all of us. All of us have to, that, that's the, to me, that's the only way to fix this. It has to be, it can't come from one group. Yeah. It has to be a diverse group of us to fix it. Do you feel optimistic about that? We have to.

Right. No, no, I get it. You're for real, man, because if, if not, I'm just going to go back to the casino. I'm all in. You're all in. You're all in. Yeah. What about my college education?

Ah, you're not going to college. thing. I'm on betting it all. I love this quote that you had, which is you said, if you're passionate about your work, it makes the people around you want to be involved too. What project do you feel that way about? For me, what helped me was when I shot this movie, this drama I just did undercard. Just from the director, Tamika Miller, her passion, about the project and all the effort that she put into it, the preparation.

I mean, she had, you know, the storyboards. And she just knew exactly how she wanted this thing to look. And how she would pour into me as far as, you know, the confidence that she had in me that I could, you know, pull this off. And then going into the, it's a boxing movie, so I had to train and get into boxing, right? And then being in that environment, it's like, wow, these people are really into boxing. You know, and just that energy.

I was like, this thing, this makes me want to, you know, seriously getting into it and take it seriously. And I found a love for it also, you know, I got head gear and shit. Wow. That's crazy. Yeah. No kidding.

I got spar. Yeah, I love it. I love it, yeah. And then, you know, we go to set and we start filming this movie. The crew, the crew, they were into it. I'm never seeing the crew just so passionate and wanting to get the job done. And, you know, you know, crews, you know, hanging around sometimes. Totally.

But everyone, I did not see anyone, like, standing still. Yeah. It was, everybody was just so behind it. So it was like, okay, now I'm, it may. me better. Do you feel like, because at this point, like, you've acted in so many things. It's like, do you feel like all that like spills back into your stand-up? Yes. Yeah. Yeah, I'm way, I mean, aware, way more aware of, like, really trying to bring the bit or the story to life. Yeah. I'm way more animated now. You know.

way more in physical comedy because it's just now I'm seeing it. Yeah. I know what I want the audience to, you know, to see or the world I'm trying to set for them. Yeah. So, yeah, it definitely does help. That was like one of the best pieces of advice I got when I was starting at the door, the DC Improv where I opened for Jake Johansson once. And he goes, like, sometimes if a bit's not working, it's like,

you have a thing in your head and they just don't, you're not able to convey it. Right. So it's like, try. Try a different way. Try a different word. Try a different physicality. That was really stuck with me. Who are you jealous of?

Who am I jealous of? Ooh. That's a good one. The follow-up question is, who are you jealous of that you thought of but didn't say? Ah. You know, it's not a jealousy. I think it's more envy.

Jane Fonda is a pretty incredible person. Yes, impressive. He's an impressive woman. Yeah. She, and the thing I love about her is she's constantly trying to be better. I mean, I'm like, damn, Jane, you're what? Like, you're already 100? I don't know how, you're good.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, she's done a lot. She's done it so much, but she's always like looking for the next thing or trying to educate herself in another, you know, space or whatever. So I... She's also sort of lived... I don't know if I had that kind of energy. She's also sort of lived a thousand lives.

Yeah. Like so many... She will reinvent herself. Yeah. What's something that you believed 10 years ago that you don't believe now? Well, I mean, yeah. I didn't... I really didn't...

believe that that we could go this far, that people would be this. You know, I just, I believe that people love the country more than what I'm seeing now. Right. You know, I thought people, I thought there was enough people who would put country first.

Right. Like that they believed in the principles of the country and not the kind of the cult of the country. Right. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. What about, like, because you perform, the special is at your college. You talk about how you used to sit in those seats.

Yeah. And it's like, what do you think you feel, what do you think differently from when you were sitting in those seats at your college? Well, from sitting in those seats, I didn't imagine that I could, you know, that I would have been performing on that stage. Yeah. Never, no, wouldn't imagine that. Because I grew up in such a traditional, you know, upbringing.

And, you know, my dad was in military. Yeah. So I didn't know anyone who was in show business, you know. Yeah. So, yeah, I didn't think that happens. You know, you would think that only happens out in L.A. or New York. Sure. You know?

No, I found that to be, I grew up in Central Massachusetts, and I'm, yeah, similar. I didn't know anyone in show business. Right. It was even strange moving to New York or even like going to the D.C. improv for the first time ago. Oh, my God, that's Dave Chappelle. Right. You know, Jake Johansson. Like, these are people I see on Letterman.

Yeah. It's so odd even just that, yeah, that making that change from like watching this thing from afar to being like, Yeah, I could do that. Right. Very. The audacity, right. The audacity. The thing that we could do that.

The delusion of it. Yeah, I should be doing that. Right. What's the best piece of advice someone's giving you that you used? I would say Chris Frot gave me the advice to make your special special. Get up and do a set, make it special. And I've, yeah. That's really nice.

Always use that. Yeah. Can you remember a time in your life when you were an inauthentic version of yourself? Probably when I was closeted, I would say. Yeah. Although I wasn't on stage saying about, oh, I love men or anything. I just wasn't talking about it. Right.

Although there was some things I probably wanted to talk about, but I just wasn't ready. So I guess that's still not being, that's still being authentic because I just, I wasn't ready. Right. Right. I was still being me. You have that great joke. Men are... People go men are dogs.

No, they're not. Dogs are loyal. Yeah. Wait, did you come out in your comedy career? Like, after you had started doing stand-up? Yes, it was the... I'm a beat me special. Yeah.

It was when I really started talking about it. Yeah. Was it a lot when you talked about it stage for the first time because very few people have that experience of coming out um no i it felt good because i i came out at the as a rally it was the prop eight um the protest the national day of protest yeah because prop eight passed and um and that's where i came out at a at a rally and i was like oh well i'm out so might as well talk about it on stage now wow yeah is there any material that you have that you're thinking about for your next special that you haven't, that's early.

Oh. Like any seed of anything. I did think of something yesterday. I don't even know if this is a bit yet. But I wrote down, I would crush being white. That's funny. You know, like. Sure.

I was like, I don't understand. Being white, you should be crushing it. Yeah. Like, oh, man, I would kill it. Yeah, sure. I mean, really, I could be president. Yeah. I would kill it.

I would be that good at it. Of course you would. Or it'd been so how, you know, then I thought about how I want to use it, but I want to be, you know, be that white where I go and try to be, you know, great for everyone and make life good for everyone. Yeah. But then it gets probably feels good to be just selfish and just, you know, just be me, me, me, and just kill it.

Yeah. I don't know. I had a similar train of thought the other day about how if you're a white man and you're not succeeding during the Trump administration, then something's wrong. Something's wrong. Because the pit boss is pushing it all in your favor. They're looking away while you're cheating. I mean, like, everything is working in your favor. These are winning conditions.

Yeah. The refs, the reps are looking away. Look away. Yeah. Not calling any files. You're good. I wrote down this thing the other day. I had this memory that I jotted down, which is when I was a kid, we never had a gun.

But one time my dad said to me, he goes, I was out to dinner with my friend Roy. And we decided that we were going to buy guns. And if either of us is ever in a vegetative state, we're going to promise to kill. the other person. And then he goes, what do you think of that idea? And I was thinking, I'm 12 years old. I'm mostly thinking about whether we're going to have gym class Friday

and whether I should bring my shorts to school or whether I should wear my shorts under my school clothes and then take off my school clothes when we go to gym and put them back on. But yeah, I think you and your friend Roy should kill each other if that happens. Oh, that's great. You know how sometimes you just have a mess? Just like a random flash from childhood.

And you go, that's got to be something. Right, yeah. Tell me this. How do you work out new jokes? Do you go to clubs? Yeah. Yeah? Where do you go?

I started in a club, you know. Actually, out in L.A., my friend Bruce Daniels, he has this show drunk on stage, and it's this little dive bar, act bar. And he has a room on Tuesday night, so I'll pop it in there. and like 15 minutes. Fantastic. Or, you know, I haven't been in the city in a while, but I would go to the comedy seller.

Yeah. A lot of times I would just book a weekend so I can get at least four or five swings at it. Yeah. I'm just working out. Yeah, work it out. The final thing we do is working it out for a cause. If there's a nonprofit you like to contribute to,

we will link to the, them in the show notes and I'll contribute to them. The Ruth Ellis Center. Ruth Ellis Center.org named in honor of a resilient Detroit icon Ruth Ellis. The Ruth Ellis Center works to create a supportive environment and community for LGBTQ plus young people.

Well, that's awesome. We will contribute. We'll link to them in the show notes. Wanda Sykes, such an honor. It's so great to meet you. And I've just loved you. your comedy for so long. Thanks, man.

Mutual. Appreciate it. Working it out because it's not done. Working it out. That's going to do it for another episode of working it out. You can follow Wanda Sykes on Instagram at I am Wanda Sykes.

Her special legacy is on Netflix. Her movie Undercard, which we talked about, is available to rent on VOD. Check out Burbigs.com to sign up for my mailing list. And even better than that, you can text Burbigs to 917-444-7150 to get text message alerts about various sort of pop-up shows. I just did one recently at the Comedy Studio in Hartford Square, which was super fun. Our producers of working it out are myself along with Peter Salomon, Joseph Burbigli, and Mabel Lewis, and Gary Simon.

Sound Mixed by Ben Cruz. Supervising engineer Kate Balinski, special thanks, as always, to Jack Antonoff and bleachers for their music. Thanks, as always, to my wife, the poet Jay Hope Stein, and our daughter, Una, who built the original radio fort made of pillows. Thanks, most of all to you who are listening. If you enjoy this show, please rate us and review us on Apple Podcasts. It really helps us out. As I always say, tell your friends, tell your enemies, tell your boss of the NSA. Just say, hey, while I'm at work dealing with all this top secret information, I usually listen to this podcast called Mike Barbigley's working it out.

It's where Mike Barbigley talks about the creative process with other comedians and writers. Nothing top secret there, but important nonetheless. Actually, might give you a breather from all the tension created from this top secret environment. Thanks, everybody. We're working it out. We'll see you next time.