Mike Birbiglia's Working It Out - 22. Abbi Jacobson: The Broad City Makeout Party

Episode Date: November 16, 2020

Mike is joined by the co-creator and co-star of the comedy classic “Broad City.” They discuss the show’s origins, why we should all hope to “fail flamboyantly,” and why you might quit your job after getting an email from Amy Poehler. Along the way they work out material about why Mike hates magic and Abbi’s crippling fear of running into her ex-girlfriend underwater. On one episode of Broad City Mike and Abbi made out literally. Today on “Working It Out” they make out…with jokes. Please consider donating to: Girls Write Now https://www.girlswritenow.org/

We are back to working it out with Abby Jacobson this week from Broad City. Oh, my gosh. One of my favorite shows of all time. One of my favorite comedies of all time. Before we begin, I just want to mention that the virtual shows are selling out. We're doing this bizarro thing with virtual shows. We have a three-camera setup, and we've lit my whole office to feel like a TV studio. And it's interactive.

It's Thanksgiving weekend. It's really fun. You can get tickets at Burbiggs.com. The first one has sold out, so swap up tickets for the other three. And without further ado, Abby Jacobson is the co-creator with Alana Glazer of Broad City, which is just wildly creative and original and just makes me laugh so damn hard. I was lucky enough to make an appearance on an episode. We talk about that. Abby is a visual artist.

She is an author. We end up working out a bunch of stuff. She is very, very smart and a great listener. I couldn't believe how much she was zeroing in on stuff that I was pitching to her and she was pitching back ideas that I

thought were fantastic and are definitely going in my notebook. I felt so lucky to have this conversation today with the great Abby Jacobson. We're working it. So, this is a thing that I was like, we should talk about this at some point because I feel like we haven't had a proper discussion of it since it happened. But on your show, Broad City, which I love, and I was in one episode,

and we made out in the episode. And you directed the episode. And it was the first time you've ever directed. That was the first episode I directed. Yep. And this is just my opinion. I feel like I want to set the record straight on television and film making out. It is not fun.

It is not comfortable. It doesn't matter how much you like the person personally or how pretty they are or whatever. Like, I feel like on talk shows, there's this myth where people, you know, actors go on and they're like, I got to make out with Brad Pitt and let's just say it was pretty fun. And you're like, was it? I don't know. Yes, it's, I mean, you're like being, you're truly like under lights. You're like, you're being like, like everything is like you're,

when you're shooting anything, you're being watched. But this is like different. We had like close right yeah i think so yeah i think there were two making out scenes if i'm not mistaken yeah there was one like in the kitchen and then one in the bedroom yeah yeah man fuck that director right can i curse is that bad no no you can totally curse and uh she made us do that yes she made us do that. You're going to be like, she made us make out so, we had to do so many takes. She just wanted so many takes. It really is, it's awkward because it's like, it reminds me of like the middle school parties where they're like, go in the closet and do this, right?

Except we're filming it, and the mean bully in seventh grade who's like, do it, is the director and is your boss, basically. I guess I did a good amount of makeouts on Broad City. I just did one for this new show I'm working on like i guess just meaning pre-covid but it it's been different it's different in a comedy kind of like that's a good point that's a good point yeah because i did i did i did a makeout scene with asia k dylan on billions and that's a more of a drama and it it is different. You're right. Like we, I mean, we were making out there.

Like you were like, like there was like jokes in the middle of us making out, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's like, so it's like, I mean, it's still not comfortable, but like this last one was like, yeah, I had to be like, really falling for this person.

It was like a whole other situation. I don't know. It was uncomfortable in a totally different way where I was like, oh my goodness. Yeah. It really hangs a lantern on like what the act. Like I have a joke from years ago, which is like when I was in like sixth or seventh grade

and people started making out, I was like, people we know are connecting mouths with other people we know. But how? You know, and like, honestly, I like still feel that way. Like I'm still like making out is like a little odd to me. Yeah. Yeah, it is. And then when we are like put together and in that situation, it just is heightened in a new way where you're like,

what are we doing? It's almost like when you like say the same word too many times and it becomes nonsense. It's funny because when I, unless I misremember this, the night I remember meeting you and Alana was 2014 at the Bell House for the Vulture.com Festival. That's what I remember. Oh, yes. And I think I was the host. I think I introduced you and the audience. And I was a fan of your show already. But you know how with TV and movies, like you just don't know how popular

things are anymore. Like you just don't know. And things are anymore like you just don't know and i introduced you to stage and it was like the fucking beetles of brooklyn it was like the crowd went fucking ape shit and i think that's right in the center i think that's the entire audience is just that audience it was it was it was like there is, there are no two bigger comedians in 1-1-2-3-1 than you and Alana. I don't know. I think you get applauses like that as well. I don't think I do. I think people are like,

oh yeah, I've seen him at the bagel store. I always bring up Broad City as an example when people ask me for advice because a common thing that people ask is like, how do I get started? How do I, you know, how do, you know, a few years ago, I wrote this thing for the New York Times called

How to Make It Small in Hollywood. And it's like six, I think it's called- Oh my goodness, I'm writing this down. Six tips for how to make It Small in Hollywood. And it's like six, I think it's called six tips, six tips for how to make it small in Hollywood. And, and it's basically a lot of it is just like, just make something, you know, fail, fail making it, make it again, a little better, you know, fail again, you know, that kind of thing. And I always bring up Broad City because it's a quintessential example of, as I understand it, you and Alana made a web series before you had a Comedy Central TV deal. And you were sort of figuring out as you went. Yeah.

I mean, I think Alana and I were like kind of found each other and we're, we're from different places, but like have a lot of similarities, but like this, like what, like even having the show was like never something that we were ever like thinking that was like a possibility, like no fucking way. Like what, like who does that? You know, like we even made the web series. We made it, and just because we just thought we were cracking each other up.

This dynamic is ridiculous. That's great. If we heighten it, it's even more so what the show is. We started making the web series. And to be honest, Paul and Lucia, Paul W. Downs and Lucia and Yellow, who are our biggest collaborators on Broad City, they were just friends of ours.

And they wrote us after we released the first episode. Like both individually, I think they had talked about it together. And they both were like, you need to keep doing this. Oh, no kidding. After the first web episode. Like just as like friends, like this is something, keep doing this oh no kidding after the first web like like just as like friends like this is something keep doing this oh that's so cool and they i mean they weren't

involved they were like lucia directed an episode paul was in one but like they came after we lucia shot the directed the pilot but i mean that, like, you almost need someone who's, like, we just thought those two were just, like, so funny. And for them to write us, and we weren't that close with them. And then we just kind of thought it would be, yeah, we thought at first it would be a jumping off point for us to get, for us to be able to get staffed as writers. Sure, sure, yeah. Because also, we are just not Hollywood type. Yeah, to get a job as writer on someone else's show.

Yeah, because I think, like so much else, it's like sort of ingrained, like who should be on television and what those people should look like. Sure. And that was not really Alana and I. And I think we had this manager at the time

and they were like, Alana and I, they need to either gain a lot of weight or lose 20. It was like we were two in the middle. We're just like two average kind of. Oh my gosh. Which is so hilarious and I'm happy we didn't work with that person,

like whoever our manager spoke to. But it was so like we were just like, let's just keep making this. It's so fun. And we worked with like all these UCB people, all these standups in the web series. And it was just like, I, I mean, it was just so fun. Like I write a lot about this in, in my book, but there's like, I write a lot about this in my book, but there's like, I think the happiest moment, like there's been a lot of like huge, like holy shit moments in my life regarding like career where I'm like, what? Like you get a call or something, you know? Right. But I think the biggest one where like was Alana and I had been doing this web series for like two years.

We were going to do like a finale. We had been doing these big finales. And we had Kristen Schaal was going to be in it. And then it rained and we had to push it a week. And then this was going to be our 35th episode. Oh, wow. And it got rained out and we were so bummed and Kristen couldn't do it. We had to reschedule. And then I saw this time, 100 like people, uh, I don't know, things in New York. And I saw this clip of Amy Poehler talking and I was like, she's in New York.

I was like, Amy's in New York. That's fucking, that's it. I'm like, if in New York that's fucking that's it I'm like if I didn't see that you know I'm like and then so we asked her through Will Hines who was our teacher at UCB we were like could you ever ask her for us and he was like no problem

and I will never forget I was at the Astoria Beer Garden for someone's birthday. And I got an email. Alana and I got an email from Amy saying that she had loved watching Bronze City. Whoa. I mean, she knew it. Whoa.

But she wrote us and she was like, I would love to do it. I'm here this week. Oh my gosh. And I left. I don't know who's, I just walked out of the beer garden and I like danced home. Like I was like, this is it. This is it. Alana then quit. We were nuts. Like I called Alana. She was ups she was in upstate new york shooting some like indie film in the middle of a field and she like hadn't looked her email and we were screaming oh my gosh and like there's been so many moments like that but that one just me validating like just sometimes when you have someone validate the fact that you are good,

and like she wouldn't want to do it if she didn't think something was there. Oh, of course not. It was just like, that was it. I want to quit her job. That's hilarious. Because Amy said yes to the web series. Oh my gosh. Gosh. I toured extensively with Chris Gethard,

and I know he was one of your first UCB improv teachers. He was like my main, I think I took him the most. Yeah. He's such a good teacher, such a good improviser and stand up. And, and, and, and I remember him telling me on tour that like, that you and Alana, like when, when you took classes with him, he immediately sort of saw like, you know, these women are like wildly talented, but they actually don't fit in the exact paradigm of the UCB theater, like, like audition for a team, an improv team, and then blah, blah, blah. And, and that he was so happy that you sort of just did your own thing. And I think it's like a great example of like, don't wait for people to pick you.

Sort of like pick yourself. Yeah. He said something to me. I mean, Gethard is like, we check in every once in a while. I mean, he's one of my favorite people. He said something to me once in a class that like shook me. I think I wrote it down because he goes deep he was like oh yeah yeah it was like when you're going to take responsibility

for who you are in like a positive way of like stop like i i'm like is this a fucking other quote it's like a negative quote or is that or is that a quote from the vow from keith ranieri it seemed no but he was saying it like because i i mean i love playing insecure that's my go-to like that's like abby is like where is out loud yes yeah yeah and that's like a heightened version of just like what's going on in my head sure and so me in an improv class, like I know I was good, but I think a lot of, I was just like extremely hard on myself and never had a lot of confidence. And he was saying it in the way of like, when are you going to just, like I took it where I interpreted like, when are you just going to own up that you're good?

Like let yourself be good. It's funny you should say that because it's like that reminds me when I was doing improv in college, we read the book Truth in Comedy, which is by Del Close and Sharna Halpern. And one of the things they say, and a lot of great improv teachers say this, is play to the height of your intelligence. And I think that that's kind of what you're saying, the advice that you got. Which is like sort of like being the best version of yourself and like owning that. Because it's like a willingness to fail at trying to be your best that probably will lead to the funniest scenarios. Because it's actually way funnier, I think, to watch someone try so hard and fail

instead of like half-ass trying and failing. Yes. And because like the half-ass trying and failing, you're seeing the person like see themselves fail versus just keeping failing. Yes. You know, does that make sense? Yeah. Well, even your, even your scene with me where I played your high school teacher, our scene on Broad City, basically the dynamic was I was your school teacher years before. You were like a young teacher in high school. Young teacher.

And then years later, we met on an app called Bumble, I think. It was like a dating app. And in some ways, that is your character. You're trying to be smart and use smart words and stuff with me, but you're

failing at it. And that is exactly what you're talking about right now, I think. Yes, yes, yes. Yeah, what was, oh, there's a good one. And you like corrected everything. Yeah. I think you say like, supposedly. And I'm like, oh, actually, Abby, it's supposedly.

Yeah, and I was like, wow, like, Abby, it's supposedly. Yeah, and I was like, wow, you read the whole New Yorker. Oh, my God. That's right. No, but it is like rather than, well, I guess you call it out as the teacher, but I guess there is a thing where you don't want to see, like within the failing, just go full and fail. Yes. want to see like it within the failing just go full and fail yes rather than like notice the failing while it's happening or something actually i have a really good thing so i went to just this

this term i went to i'm going to come back around this is going to make sense oh yeah i went to art i went to art school for yes i never went to grad school, but I have a BFA in general, fine arts. And Jerry Saltz, do you happen to know? Yes. He's a major art critic. Major art critic. But so he came to speak at MICA, which is where I went to school, Maryland Institute College of Art.

And it was all, and I was like a sophomore. And I went to hear him speak Institute College of Art. And it was all, and this, I was like a sophomore and I went to hear him speak. I didn't know who he was. And his whole speech was about failing flamboyantly. Oh, that's interesting. I like that. And I love that. I love that turn of phrase, failing flamboyantly.

That's great. Like do it, if you're going to do it, like, fail, flamboyant. Like, that means you, like, cared about the thing you were trying to do. Part of the reason why I was like, oh, I should email Abby about this show is that it's all about, like, working out stories and new material and new writing and ideas. and new material and new writing and ideas. And you and I literally,

like almost exactly a year ago in Los Angeles when I brought the new one to the Amundsen Theater, you came to the show and like we, I feel like we went for coffee or a walk or something and you were like, I want to write autobiographical stories on, or to tell autobiographical stories on, or to tell autobiographical stories on stage, potentially. And I was,

and we were going to talk about it and then, you know, a lot of stuff happened since then. Yeah. I mean, I told you this the day of, but I love that show. And I think that you have just been somebody that you do write.

I mean, I think most people do, but you really have a way of writing from your life that's very raw and honest and open. And it does cross the line into, it's stand-up storytelling. It's more fluid, I think, than, like, just stand-up. You know what I mean? I hope that's okay.

No, no, I appreciate it. Do you feel that way? Yeah, no, that's so nice of you. Do you want to try to tell stories on stage still? Totally. It's just this missing piece where, like, I do love that, and I love what you do,

and I mean, I'm friends with Jacqueline, and I loved that show. Oh yeah, Get On Your Knees is so good. Jacqueline, Jacqueline Novak show. I saw it here in LA. Yeah. Teeny tiny audience at the Lyric. Yeah, I saw it there too, yeah.

And then I saw it at the Cherry Lane. Yeah. And I just, you know, I mean, she also has just this like wildly specific tone and voice. And I don't know, I was just like very inspired by that show. And it's sort of like prompts and memories from childhood. And I was actually rereading Mary Carr's book today, and it's called The Art of Memoir, which for the listeners, I highly recommend. She wrote Liar's Club and Lit and Cherry. She's a brilliant writer, but I thought of from it that I thought I'd debut with you today, which is what do people like and dislike about you?

Isn't that a crazy question? Oh, no. That's hard. You can pass. I think my mind goes bad, goes like sad first. Sad is fine, though. Sad is fine. You know what I mean no no same same where i'm like oh like like i went there where it's like i wonder if and people is it like for i i unfortunately go like oh well like people who don't know me must think this and or i don't know

do you know what i mean but like we're talking people that know us. I feel like my, yeah. And I'm actually doing the exercise in my brain because I hadn't done it until literally, I was just reading this today. I'm just doing the exercise. I think what people like about me is that I'm generally well-intended.

And it's like, I wear my heart on my sleeve. I think what they don't like about me or dislike about me is I'm annoying. And the reason I think that I'm annoying is whenever I get a glimpse of myself, you know, not as myself, I'm like, oh, that person is annoying. Oh, my God. It's so it is so interesting what we think about ourselves. I don't think you're annoying. It's so, it is so interesting. Like what we think about ourselves. I don't think you're annoying.

Thank you so much. At all. Okay. What do people like about you? I would say that same about me. I think I'm well-intentioned. But I guess, I think people like about me that, oh my God, this is hard, Mike. It's hard.

I'll give you another one. I'll give you another. Maybe we'll go back. Is there a time in your life? This is Mary Carr's one too. Is there a time in your life when you wanted to be perceived in a certain way that wasn't authentic to you? Oh.

I have one that's really clear which is like okay go go which is like when i was in high school not when i was in high school i went through this phase where i like i bought like a cowboy hat and i started like wearing it to like concerts and things and i was like and i was like i'm cowboy hat guy. Like, that's who I am. Like, it was secretly thinking this. And it's so embarrassing and cringeworthy to think about because I just, you know, I was just begging for an identity in high school. I just didn't know who I was. Wow.

I love, I mean, I love that it was a cowboy hat. That's just adorable. Were your friends like, what's going on? I didn't, I don't. I didn't have that many friends in that period of my life. And I think the feedback was fine. Like in hindsight, I don't know if the feedback was anything. But at the time it was like, yeah, no, this seems good. Because I was like meeting like strangers at like concerts in a cowboy hat. And they were like, yeah, because they were like high, you know, like I would go to like a fish concert or something and like a cowboy hat.

We've talked about this, you know, that I used to go to a lot of fish concerts. No, I did not know that. Yeah. Did you really? Yeah. My brother was such a fish head and I would like in high school, all my friends, we would like go to fish concerts, but then they went on a hiatus. Yes. Yes. So I missed a bunch. Okay. Here's another

one. Did you ever have an injury in your life that felt like it would never go away? Um, yes. So it's knocking on wood. It still happens. I throw, I mean, we put it in Brunt City because it was so, I like hurt my, I don't, I didn't do anything, but I, every so often I will hurt my neck, like doing nothing like an old person in a way that makes me, it's like my neck shoulder. And I'll go to the chiropractor. Like, I don't know what's wrong, but it'll put me completely out of commission. And it started happening in college and it happens. I mean, I really hope it doesn't happen soon,

but it happens so much. I am like, have a very good relationship with my chiropractor. I wrote a character for him and Alan Alda played him. Oh my gosh. Dr. Heller, Dr. jay heller is the biggest sweetheart and he it just is like was so thrilled that alan alda played him oh yeah that's exciting he's like i can't believe it it was like he put it in his newsletter oh wow that's how much i go i used to go in there you made the heller letter the, yeah. No, it's called like a just,

it's called, he has like a pun in. Sure, of course he does. Yeah, of course he does. If you're a chiropractor with a newsletter, you got a pun in there. This is actually something I'm trying to work on for the new show. The new show that i'm working on

is called ymca pool and it's all about middle age it's all about middle age and like hitting middle age and like basically the the name the reason for the name is that when i was a kid i went to the ymca pool and then i was like for whatever reason i was like i'd never want to go back to the ymca pool like i was just like, I'm never going back. And I don't know if it was like there's too much chlorine or the snack machine room with a coffee maker that also makes soup. I just didn't like it. I didn't like the whole thing. There's a lot going on.

A lot going on. Didn't want to go back. But here I am, I'm 42 years old, and I'm like, my doctor is like, you have, you have type 2 diabetes. You have bad breathing. You have this. You have this. You should go to the YMCA pool.

And so I go to the YMCA pool. But anyway, so I have. So it's really the show. Like in some ways, the new one was about like having a child. And my girlfriend's boyfriend was about getting married and this is really about middle age and like hitting this age where i'm realizing that all about like uh you know sort of an existential crisis and that's what yeah but anyway so which is all to say that i'm working on this material that is somewhat related to that, which is the other day I was free writing about magic.

And now for the longest time, I just hated magic. Literally for years. And so I just free wrote about this the other day. I wrote, I have a bunch of these jokes. I just go, I hate magic, but I love jokes. Because with jokes, you think I could see how he got there. And with magic, you just think I hate this guy.

And then that's my first magic joke. You do. I know. I know. But you know, I never compared the two. They are very similar. It's like a buildup.

Yes. And like a, like a luring you in, in a way that like like if both are done, it's like wildly unexpected when you get to the thing. Yeah, I think jokes and magic are so similar. I guess that's been compared a lot and maybe I'm just new to that.

No, no, no, I think they are. Because, you know, I think, yeah, you know, the setup is the thing that's true and then the punchline is like the right turn. And with magic, it's like, you know, the setup is the thing that's true, and then the punchline is, like, the right turn. And with magic, it's like, you know, look, I'm just a regular person. Oh, wait, I have coins coming out of my finger. Yeah, yeah.

So then I have a story. So this is sort of the building blocks of this bit, which is, it's a story about many years ago, my wife Jen and I met this couple, this married couple. They invited us to their house for dinner. And we didn't know them that well. And it was that thing where you're like,

oh, this will be fun. I wonder why they even want to hang out with us. And we show up. And you know what I mean? You know that feeling? It's just so funny to like, I totally relate to that, but it is so funny for that to be like,

why do they want to hang out with us? That's like the one thought. It's like only the insecurity of not like, I wonder what they're going to make. It's like, why do they invite us? No, I know. It goes back to the insecurity thing we were talking about before,

which is something we have in common. So we show up, and the first thing they say is like, this is our son Eric, you know, who's like 12. He's a big fan of yours and he loves magic and he really wants to show you a magic trick. And Jen and I lock eyes because we both know my secret is I hate magic. And so I have to be like, that's great, you know? And so I'm escorted to like a little like table, you know?

And Eric, you know, this 12-year-old kid like does a card trick. And he's watching me watch the card trick. And I have to do the best acting of my life. Oh, no. Better than my work on Broad City to pretend that this is such a good trick. And I go, oh, my gosh, that was wonderful. This is such an excellent trick. And it was painful because I'm lying in front of my wife, which is embarrassing

because she knows what it looks like when I lie. And she knows I hate magic. And then Eric can see it. The kid can see it on my face. And he's like, oh, I messed it up. I have to do it again. Oh, no. And I had to go, no, you didn't mess it up. It was perfect. It was the best magic trick I've ever seen. And he did it again. And I had to act more excited

than when I said it was the best magic trick I've ever seen. Oh my, what, are the parents right there too? The parents are there, everyone's watching. Oh my. And then I had to be like, that was even better. He does it. That was even better than the other time, which I couldn't even conceive of at this point. At this point, I'm just, it goes back to our improv step,

I'm just yes-anding anything they're putting in front of me. It's also just like the more dialogue that you have to say about the magic trick, the more it's obvious that it's mediocre or whatever, because you're like, no, that wasn't, it's like the reaction is just telling where you're like talking about it.

Yes. You know what I mean? It's only making it worse. It's only making it worse. No, no, right. If it was successful, it would be self-explanatory. Yes. Like you wouldn't even have to say how you felt.

Okay, so then I go. At this point, I'm just yes-ending anything they're putting in front of me because we really like the couple. Like I stated earlier, we really want to be friends with them. So we're like game for anything. Like if the couple had said like, well, now the adults shall adjourn to the bedroom and have a four-way. We would have been like, that sounds great.

As long as we don't have to watch your kid do a magic trick. We would have been like, that sounds great. As long as we don't have to watch your kid do a magic trick. Anyway, we were never invited to dinner again. But last year, I ran into the dad of the family. And I said, how's Eric's magic? And he said, you know, Eric doesn't do magic anymore. And I said, oh, I Eric doesn't do magic anymore. No. And I said, oh, I go, that's too bad.

Because that magic trick he showed me was the best magic trick I had ever seen. I can't believe you're acting to this dad. And I think that my acting had gotten better since the incident 10 years ago because his dad believed me. He did? Yeah, he believed me. I wonder if Eric's doing magic now. No, he quit. I think, oh, I think he did.

No, I mean, after his dad came home, it was like a random mic. Oh, maybe he picked it up again. Yeah. Well, so anyway, the way that this whole story, I feel like, is going to fit into the show is essentially thematically having to do with like having to do with like being jaded about things, but then revisiting those things. You know, like in other words, like I do hate magic and I've hated magic for many years, but then like, I'll be honest with you. Like I saw now my friend, Derek DelGaudio's magic one-person show. I should say it's a one-person show that has magic in it.

He's like a brilliant magician. I saw it like, I think two years ago. It's going to be a film soon. It was at South by Southwest that Frank Oz directed. And then, Abby, true story. Now I love magic. Whoa, so maybe you just hate it until you see, like, I don't know if I've seen, like, a great magic show.

I think I did a 180 on magic because I think, in some ways, it's like a metaphor for all things, which is, like, if you see a bad version of something, you're like, I don't like that thing. But actually, it's not that you don't like that thing. It's that you haven't seen something, you're like, I don't like that thing. But actually, it's not that you don't like that thing. It's that you haven't seen something done that well. Yeah.

But it also makes me think like, like why would I, like, you know, when I was talking about like a party like that where somebody has like a magician, like I immediately like eye roll inside. Oh, I know. It's painful. Like I immediately like eye roll inside. Oh, I know it's painful. But it's like, why can't you just like, just go with it?

Like it's just trying to like make you feel things. That is a really good point. It's just trying to take you on an experience. And it's like, no, like we're like, I don't believe this bullshit it's like why is that the approach because we're so like set in like reality or something yes you know what i mean like what is that i completely know what you mean i actually think that what you're saying is something i'm gonna jot down for like let it wash over you like let it take you

away mike you know yes well no because ultimately like all that we're doing whether we're telling jokes or putting on a sketch or or doing magic is we're just creating some piece of escapism or fun you know as a respite from the madness that is existence and like me hating magic in some ways is so much more about me than it is about the magician. Yes. Oh, it's, it's because you hate it before you even see it. I hate magic because I hate myself. Do you have a story that you're considering telling on stage, but, like, you're not sure? Okay, so I'm, like, not there yet because I am in this, like,

I haven't been able to do, even you talking about free writing this, like, I haven't been able to do, even you talking about free writing and like prompts. When we met, you were talking about, you said something to me where it's like, write about the thing you're most afraid of people knowing about you. Yeah, sure, sure. Yeah. That, and, you know, I think I, I, so I did in the book and I've been thinking about this book was like a collection of essays and lists and things. And I drove about me. Just so the listeners know, the book is called I Might Regret This. And the subtitle is Essays, Drawings, Vulnerabilities, and Other Stuff.

It's a really good book. Thanks. But it's supposed to exist as a sliver of my life. You're really supposed to feel like you're on this road trip. I drove from LA to New York. Yeah. And I was really heartbroken and just like really figuring myself out.

It was like a, it was just like, it was after I dated a woman for the first time, after I'd been in love for the first time. And I was just like really going through it solo. Yeah. And it was so cathartic to write about that. And so ultimately, the thing for me, the thing that I would lean into probably is like,

oh no, I'm going to be alone. Like I'm meant to be alone. Like I'm meant to be alone. Like that kind of the fear or thinking behind that. It's weird. We talked about the like fitting in and stuff. And like, it's not that I don't feel like I fit in. I guess I just feel like a little I've always felt like isolated and. Like a little detached.

But I feel like that is such a fertile area to go into because I feel like it's so relatable and people are so reluctant to admit that, the fear of being alone. That's massive. I know. And I felt that way in the response to the book. And even just like,

you know, I was like realizing my sexuality in my early thirties. Like what, how does that happen? Yeah. Like, how do you know, like where, where was I? Do you know what I mean? Right, right, right. Where was it? It's like, but it also, it's so, I don't know. Like there's, so I do think there's a lot in there and I feel like the response from the book in a lot of ways made me feel like I would want to do it. Like in the, the first essay I wrote in the book was like this ex-girlfriend that I had and like when I was going to see her.

And like, well, when would I see her? And like how and where? And I just like, I mean, it, it like goes on and you're supposed to like feel the tone shift. It's like, it's like anxiety inducing of like going through the most absurd ways in which you could, I could run into her. Yeah. Like batshit crazy. And I feel like it's not just with your ex, but like, there's all these people like kind of floating around that like you know you're gonna run into in the at the worst time so that with that ex-girlfriend where did you fear that you'd run into i mean i let myself

like go it was like honest but also like like i'm not heck here was like, what if I'm in a bookstore? And, but I'm in the, like, I'm like holding, I'm not in the, like, you know, poetry section. I'm in the fucking, like, I'm holding like Guy Fieri's book. Oh yeah, yeah. But maybe I have been holding that book because I happen to be buying that book for someone who happens to love Guy Fieri, but like she would see me holding it. Because I happen to be buying that book for someone who happens to love Guy Fieri, but she would see me holding it. And I wouldn't be able to say that it's for my stepdad, but why couldn't I be holding the fucking book? I can't remember. And then it was like, what if I'm waiting in line? It got so crazy.

It was like, what if I decided I wanted to take diving lessons? Because I've never dove. And I think underwater is like this whole other life that we don't get to experience. So I decided to take diving lessons because I don't have a trip plan, but I, you know, I could plan a trip, but if I'm going to plan a trip, I should probably know how to dive first. And so I planned the diving lessons. And what if I I'm down there and I'm really getting a hang of the breathing in the air. And cause that can take a while. Cause it's like, you're underwater.

It's hard to breathe. You have to get used to the tanks and all this. And then I'm all the way down at the bottom of the pool. And what if she's, what if she's down there at the bottom of the pool? She is taking diving lessons too, but maybe she has a trick plan. Like it just like, I really like the like spinning. I love that. I love that. And then you're down there and you can't say anything. You know what I mean? Like, I like going like absurd where it starts like, I don't know. And that just was when I got that essay, like when I got the like game of it,

it was so fun, even though it was like a real thing of like, fuck, I'm going to see, I'm going to see her. And it's probably not going to be in a great time. Like one was like a real thing of like, fuck, I'm going to see her. And it's probably not going to be in a great time. Like one was like, what if I'm on rollerblades and I can't stop because those things, you know, and I keep going down the hill. I don't know. that girlfriend or like any of those places, but it's just about the feeling of, of, of like caring so much about someone and then knowing there's going to be this moment when you're reunited and what that feels like and how it gets so heightened in our brains before it even happens.

So like when I hear you talk about like this fear of being alone i feel like that's a great thing to have a show about i'm like yeah there's a ton there and part of the reason i think there's a ton there is because it's a confession it's not something that you bring up the first you know if you if you met someone at a coffee shop i don't ever bring it up. No, totally. Totally. And that's when you know you're in a good place, in my opinion. It's like if it feels like you're confessing something to the audience or admitting something. And combined with that, it's really funny. So like all the details you have about a fear of like running into your ex-girlfriend, all that stuff is that stuff's all really funny.

And so then it's like, do you have an event? The question I would ask if I were being a dramaturg is like, do you have an event in your life that you remember that epitomizes that fear of being alone? Like for example, when you're alone, like when you're alone at home, is that when it sets in? Is it in the middle of the night? Is it in your dreams? Is it when, you know, you go home for holidays for your family or something?

Do you know what, like, the kicker is? Hmm? I love being alone. Yeah, yeah, sure, sure. Yeah. Like, there is a dichotomy. There is a thing,

and, like, maybe that's, like, I don't know. Maybe that's where it lands. The end, a, there is a thing. And like, maybe that's like, I don't know. Maybe that's where it lands. The end. Yeah. Because I'm like, no, I love being alone.

It's just the deep aloneness that I don't like. Like, I'm like, I would love to like, yeah, have a partner where you're like living, sharing your life. But I'm like,

I need to, I need like solid solitary time too. Yeah. But I'm like, I need like solitary time too. Yeah. But I'm like, I think that's, it is so funny though. Like for someone like me who loves their alone time to be so, like about how I'm never gonna meet someone that I would be able to like, you know, live with or any of this. And

then for me to just love being alone is quite funny. Like I'm not, I like that turn of that. I think that's really good. I mean, I feel like, I feel like there's a lot there. I just feel like also there's a specificity to solitude and how you like to be alone that I feel like people would lock into. I mean, and also that's the thing that I think I come off as not that way. Sure. To which like adds to it.

I don't know if it adds to it in a good way or a bad way for me, but. And also like why the fear of being alone, like, let's say if you land on this idea of, like, wait a minute, I enjoy solitude, is, like, then I think a question I would ask is, like, then why were you searching for a partner all along? I don't know, Mike. I don't know either. I don't know, Mike.

I don't know either. I don't know either. I'm going to do two quick jokes to wrap up if that's okay. Love it. My wife and I do a lot of sexting. The other night she wrote, the ants in the kitchen

attacked the English muffins. And I wrote, man, I want to fuck you. And she wrote, the ants in the kitchen attacked the English muffins. And I wrote, man, I want to fuck you. And she wrote, I'm going to freeze the pumpernickel. And I knew what she meant. And then the second part of that joke, and this one's, by the way, if I ever found out my wife was sexting with someone else, I would be like that is brutal but we do have unlimited talk and text on our family plan so financially I think we'll be okay

I love that so that's sort of fun envision you both texting from the same place which I love yeah and it is of course from the same place and then I love. Yeah, and it is, of course, from the same place. And then the other thing I wrote is, and Jen actually wrote an ending to this, which I think is really nice, which is when I was a kid, before I knew what sex was, people alluded to the Playboy channel on TV, you know? And based on context clues,

I imagined that it was just people completely naked, like walking around in circles. Anyway, that's how my wife and I have sex to this very day. And it took a very long time for us to make a baby. That's her line. Her line is it took a long time for us to make a baby, which I love. So I don't know how that's going to tie into YMCA pool, but I'm still in sort of the free association and free writing part of this stuff. Kind of like ties back into like the child, like the moment you decided to stop, like the pool wasn't for you. Yes, yes, that's right.

It's almost the same mentality of like the, what is sex? That's a good point. Like the before, because like you did, there is a moment where everything becomes like, it just changes over to like adult mind. Oh my gosh, that's so true. And that's also like similar to this thing in YMCA pool where I talk about when I was a kid, I went to the YMCA pool and I have this stigma with the YMCA because my

mom, when I was five, brought me into the women's locker room and I had never seen a vagina before. And then I saw 100 vaginas. And when I was six, she sent me into the men's locker room. And the only thing more shocking than 100 vaginas is 100 penises at eye level. So maybe that ties into the Playboy channel, actually. Yeah, for sure. It's also hilarious if that was like why, like in telling the sex one, you like realize why you stopped liking the YMCA. That's right.

That's right. Where it's like, oh my God, it was like all the dick. Or I don't know about that, but like, it's like, and now you're not, it's also funny. It's like, you're not, you're at a different eye level now. It's a totally different experience. Oh, I love that. I love that. I love that turn of phrase,

and now I'm at a different eye level. Yes. I'm not at, I'm no longer at dick eye level. Yeah. They're still there, but I'm now up here. This is the part of the show we call Working It Out for a Cause. Is there a nonprofit that you want to contribute to or to shine a light on today?

Yes. There is a New York-based organization that I'm kind of involved with called Girls Right Now. Okay. But it's right, like W-R-I-T-E. Mm-hmm. It's awesome. R-I-T-E. It's awesome. It just is a really incredible New York organization that encourages and sets up all these girls all over the city with mentors and writing programs. That's so good.

And I think they put out a multi-annual publication of their writing. And they have this incredible success rate. I've been to a couple of their fundraisers and galas. Oh, nice. I just followed them on Instagram, which is at girls right now. And the description is New York City's premier creative writing and mentoring organization for high school girls and gender non-conforming youth.

And it looks fantastic. Yeah, it's really like, it's like, I think they initially approached Alana and I to do something and now I'm just like on board. I just love what they do. That's so cool. Yeah. Well, thanks for coming on.

And yeah, I can't tell you how helpful this was to making me think about the world. Oh my gosh, it was so fun to brainstorm like that. Thank you so much for thinking of me and for having me on. It was, it really made my, I don't know what time is now, but I feel like it made my, it truly like made my week, made my month. Yeah. Working it out, cause it's not done.

We're working it out, cause there's no hope. Wow, that was another episode of Working It Out. Man, that Abby Jacobson is brilliant. She is, I feel so lucky that she came on and kicked around ideas. I hope we work on something together someday. She's just such a fascinating person to bounce stuff off of and hear her ideas. And man, by the way, I couldn't recommend Broad City more highly. I mean, people ask me for recommendations for comedy specials all the time.

And there's so many that I recommend. But man, like Broad City is a great show to binge. It'll really make you laugh. Oh, one quick thing. If you like the podcast, do a little star rating on the Apple podcast thing. Maybe write a little review. Say, even just say what your favorite episode is. We'd really appreciate it.

Our producers of Working It Out are myself, along with Peter Salamone and Joseph Verbiglia, consulting producer Seth Barish, Sound mix by Kate Balinski. Assistant editor Mabel Lewis. Special thanks to Mike Insiglieri, Mike Berkowitz, as well as Marissa Hurwitz. Special thanks always to Jack Antonoff and Bleachers for our music. And as always, a very special thanks

to my wife, the poet, J. Hope Stein. Our book, The New One, is at your local bookstore. Local, local, local. Buy local everything right now. We must do this all winter. Support local pizza, local groceries, local everything. Local bookstores.

And as always, a special thanks to my daughter Una, who created a radio fort with the help of one fresh pillow. Thanks most of all to you who have listened. Tell your friends. You must tell also your enemies.

We are working it out.