Mike Birbiglia's Working It Out - 222. Joe List: How to Survive a Comedy Panic Attack

Episode Date: August 31, 2026

This week Mike welcomes to the podcast comedian, and fellow Massachusetts native, Joe List. Joe talks about what it’s like to be married to and raise a chid with another working comedian, Sarah Tollemache, and Joe tells a story about how he worked through a panic attack moments before doing stand-up on Conan. Mike and Joe also discuss Joe’s documentary feature that he directed about a comic who dropped out of traditional show business to run a comedy club in Key West, Florida. Plus, they work out new jokes about the military history of M&Ms, strange childhood memories, and the worst thing you could say to a child. Please consider donating to the Holbrook Fire Department Text BIRBIGS to 917-444-7150 for updates Find Mike: Website: https://birbigs.com/ Instagram: https://instagram.com/birbigs/ Facebook: https://facebook.com/birbigfans TikTok: https://tiktok.com/@mikebirbiglia Find Joe: Website: https://www.comedianjoelist.com Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/joelistcomedy/ Hosted and Produced by Mike Birbiglia Producers: Peter Salomone, Joseph Birbiglia, Mabel Lewis, Gary Simons Sound Mixed by Shubh Saran Supervising Engineer: Kate Bilinski Video Consultant: Graham Willoughby Special Thanks: Marissa Hurwitz, Josh Upfal, David Raphael, Nina Cwik, J. Hope Stein, Oona Music: Jack Antonoff and Bleachers Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

One of your podcast is Tuesdays with Stories. Yeah. You ever run out of stories? Of course. Well, I always say this, and people will go, these were no stories. And I'm like, I think you only get like four real stories a year. A human being. Yes.

Only has it about four stories a year. How's it tops? Topps. Hi, everybody. It's Mike Barbiglia. This is working it up. That is the voice of the great Joe List. We have been trying to get Joe List on this podcast for so long.

It's great comments. from Massachusetts like me. We talk about that. We talk about how he's married to another great comic named Sarah Talamash. He also directed a documentary about a comedian named Tom Dustin, another Massachusetts guy,

who packed up and moved to Key West, Florida to run a comedy club there. It is a fascinating portrait of what it's like to be a working comedian. Great episode today. Really unique. We work out a bunch of jokes. It gets pretty raw, pretty real.

If you're over on Apple Podcast, don't forget to sign up for working it out premium. We recently released a special extended version of our episode with Joe Firestone. Never done that before. People seem to really like it. Let us know if you like it. We'll do it more.

I wanted to mention something that is super exciting but has some ramifications for some of my tour dates. I am making my third feature film. And it's this fall and it's with focus features. And it was just announced in deadline. And it's with Lucas Hedges and Patrick Schwarzenegger and Geraldine Fitzwan. and Dylan Galula and many, many other people. Being announced soon, it is called Old Friends New Friends. I will give you more and more updates about it soon,

but it means that I can no longer do the show that was last night at the Great Outdoors Comedy Festival in Calgary, and I won't be able to be at the New Hampshire Pavilion in Guilford, New Hampshire, on September 10th, September 11th, at the Great Outdoors Festival in Ontario or November 12th at the amphitheater in Grand Rapids, Michigan, all of these places I love and will return to soon. I'll be touring in 2027. You will be the first to know.

Those will be some of the first cities or near those cities. As you know, I never like to mess shows. I love touring. I love seeing the world and coming to you and bringing my comedy. So you can either get a refund at your point of purchase, if you have tickets to one of those shows, or you should just go to the show. I mean, it's John Mullaney, who is on fire.

I was just on a bunch of dates with him, and his hour gets better and better and better and better. And yeah, I would go. If I were you, I would go, he is, John is unparalleled in comedy, and he, I think this is his best. This is going to be his best special. But I'm excited to share more movie news. In the meantime, this is a great chat today with Joe List.

We talk about what it's like for two comedians to be married to one another. He and his wife, Sarah, have a young child. We talk about that, raising a child when both parents are working comedians. The logistics. We talk about Joe's documentary, Tom Dustin, portrait of a comedian. This is a great one. Enjoying my chat with the great Joe List. First of all, I love that you're early.

I'm always early. respect that so much. I'm compulsively, uncomfortably early. Like, I killed time. Why do you do it? For anxiety. I hate running late makes me sick to my stomach. It makes me feel like it's probably projecting because I'm allergic to people. I get very upset if people are late. So I feel like I can't be that guy. What do you think is the worst thing that'll happen if you are late? This is an interesting thing. I've talked about this in therapy with my wonderful therapist who's 80 years old. And he tells me I'm not taking into consideration the other person. Because I'm assuming they're going to think I'm just a horrible shit bag that doesn't respect them.

But they'll probably just be like, no, no, I know you and I love you. And that's okay that you're running late. So it's probably my own cynicism and projection. But yeah, I think people will be furious with me, I guess, at some level. Yeah. But I also feel like... It goes to your people-pleasing. Yeah, a lot of people-pleasing.

But I also feel like, again, this is probably self-hatred. But also, I always felt like in comedy, I had to be completely professional or else they'll just find somebody else. Yeah. I'm like, I can't go over my time. I can't be late. I can't be whatever. Because otherwise, they'll just get somebody better. I relate to that so much.

Oh, great. Because my dad was a doctor and he's retired now. He's 86. And my mom was a nurse. And they absolutely did not want me to be a comedian. Sure. Like, absolutely did not. I imagine.

And so in my mind, I was like, okay, if I do this, I have to take it as seriously as someone would take being a nurse or a doctor. Right. And so being prompt or, you know, is part of it. Yeah. That's, I mean, that's partly how I felt. I wish I took it more serious. I really didn't.

Oh, really? Yeah. Yeah. What do you mean? But you do now. I do now. I'm going to set you up to the listeners because particularly for the YouTube people, because sometimes they don't know what's going on.

It just comes on. Who are these people? I'm Mike Barbaglia. This is Joe Liss. This is working at it. I'm going to say something about your comedy, and it's a compliment. Oh, I'm nervous. But it's so long of a setup that it might feel like an insult at the front.

That's fair. But it's a huge compliment at the end. I'm not, yeah, I'm not so sensitive. Okay. I mean, I'm sensitive in many ways, but I feel like I'm not going to get my feelings. Joe, this is a comedian, he's a writer, he's an actor. Yeah, sort of. And for years, and I'm sure you have this with other people, maybe you even have it with me.

People go, you see List? I go, no. List is great. Yes. You check out List? You seen List and stuff? No. It's good.

It's good. He's great. And I would just go, okay. There's so many people. Of course. There's so many people. There's so many comics. Sure, of course.

And so people tell you, like, no, you got, it's with movies, TV shows. Yeah. Gotta see. Yellow jackets. Like, all right. You know, all right. It's like, there's just so much stuff. Of course.

You were that to me. Oh. And then this isn't so bad. And then one night I saw you a couple months ago, the cellar, and it was like, I became the person who says to people, you see list? Oh, well, thank you. So this is great. I thought this is going to be like I thought you were a Nazi or something like that, you know.

You know what I mean? No, no. It's like, I saw you, I was laughing so hard and I just go like, and I even said to Liz at the cellar, I go, what, Joe List? She goes, I know. Oh, thank you. Joe, this is amazing. She goes, I know.

Oh, I appreciate it. Her thing, I think her thing was maybe, I don't want to speak out of term on her behalf, but I think her thing was like you're not like a self-promoting comedian. Yeah. And as a result, your talent exceeds your reach. Oh, thank you. I appreciate that. Is that true?

I think that's true. Yeah, I'm not really great at the business. I keep doing things and making things that make no money and nobody wants to see it. But I feel like at some point people will care. I don't know. Sometimes I haven't, yeah, I just haven't done as many. podcast. I've never had a publicist. I've never... Yeah. I don't know. Even me getting in touch with you was challenging. Oh, is that right? Yeah. Oh, sorry. But I'm here. I'm thrilled to be here. I'm very

happy to be here. But no, going back to the not seeing people that people mention things, I have, gentlemen, you probably have this too, I imagine. I'm very busy. I try to create things, and I'm a movie lover. Yeah. I have a child. Yeah. And I do a lot of stand-up county for a lot of time. So people will go, did you see this special? Did you see that special? And it's impossible for me to imagine the situation where I come home from the comedy seller and put on somebody's comedy special. It's inconceivable.

So I try to just watch whatever person I can that's going on before me or after me that's in the room. And you do it less and less because you're on the road headlining yourself. And then you're not totally immersed. in the scene as much. I would describe your comedy as like, I could imagine like a viral video where the lower third just says like, man in audience walks onto stage at comedy club and kills. Oh, thank you. You seem like you're like not a comedian.

Oh, I appreciate that. You just seem like a person, like the most sort of normal person who walks up in the audience is sort of like, all right. and then you obliterate. I appreciate that. Well, I don't really dress for the job or think too much about it. So I do, I take that as a compliment, and I try to live a pretty normal life. I think that's part of the other thing that my lack of success, I've always been a very big

on taking a lot of personal time and vacations and being with family. Oh, that's nice. Yeah, I think so. And your wife is a hilarious. serious comics, Sarah Talamac. Yeah. Am I saying that right? Talamash.

Talamash. Yeah. But people say many different versions. And then people with the name say it differently. She's so funny. Oh, thank you. You're both comics. Yes.

You have one or two kids? One kid. One kid. Yeah. That's got to be impossible. It's very difficult. Because you're both comedians. It's outrageous.

Yeah. Because who's like, I guess I would ask me, who ends up being the adult? Well, we're both very adulty, but it's a lot of, Oh, you have a spot? Okay, I'll cancel my spot. And try to figure out the scheduling is very tough. And I went, we had kids sort of later in life. So I went, you know, 43 years, not telling anybody my schedule and just being like, oh, I'm going here, you're going there. So you've got to work out the spot. So I do a lot less sets than I used to do. But that's okay. Yeah, it's a little tricky. But we're very, we're very mature, I think.

You directed a feature-length documentary. Yes. Tom Dustin Portrait of a Comedian Yeah Which is about your friendship with this comedian Yeah And we talk about mental health And life in Key West

What was your impetus To make a documentary? The truly fully honest answer Is I've always wanted to be a filmmaker And I was obsessed with movies And filmmaking And that's what I really wanted to be But again, I have such low

self-worth and confidence for so long. I always thought that's insane. Right. You can't do that. That's why comedy was so, I was so, you know, pulled towards comedy because it felt like, all right, well, I can write down a few things and say them. Right. Tonight. But a movie, as you know, it's like, it takes so much time to write the movie, and I still struggle with the idea of spending all this time on something, and then maybe it won't get made. It's devastating. It is. And frustrating. It is. And frustrating. And so... Or it won't... Not even that it won't get made,

that it won't exist. Right. Anywhere. That you could... People could see it or read it or watch it. Yeah. It just feels like, oh. So I just...

It was so daunting to me to make a feature film and then you're going to get money and actors and locations, you know, all the stuff you're doing right now. And a documentary felt easier. And now also, I do love documentaries. I've always been really into documentaries. And, um,

But it felt like similar to stand-up as like, okay, this I can just do. And I felt that way with that movie. So I wanted to make a doc. And then it was like, okay, who do I have access to? That's really, really interesting and compelling. And my friend Tom Dustin is just, he's just a really, really fascinating guy and a hilarious guy. Yeah. So we did it and we shot it in like three and a half days.

And it came out pretty good, I think. I'm proud of it. It's funny because it's like, it's sort of a, in some ways about this really funny comic who isn't very well known. Yeah. And I feel like we talk about that on this podcast a lot, which is this idea of like it is, in no way is art of meritocracy. No. In fact, not even close. Not even close.

There's almost no correlation. Right, right. Exactly. Yeah, yeah. And it's like, was that one of the reasons? you wanted to make it? Yeah, well, I always, I'm very, I hate the idea of people, so many people, including comedians, think that all the best comedians are in New York and L.A., and now Austin to some

degree. Right. And that may be true, but there are so many. It's not true, though. It's not true. Yeah. There are so many great comedians that people haven't heard of. And that are living a kind of a working class comedy life, for lack of a better term.

I always feel like there's people on roofs right now listening, being like, what? you know what I mean like totally that aren't huge or famous or making tons of money but they're as funny as anybody they just went different paths so I like the idea of showing that and then he also is a club owner and his alcoholism was a big part of the movie yeah um which by the way I had this fantasy that in the time it took us to edit he would get sober and it would end with at the time of releasing this Tom's been sober which didn't come to fruition but we went on a press little, a small press tour, and he was drunk throughout the whole thing. And that got him sober, and he's now been sober for over a year. So the movie ultimately got what I wanted to do. Yeah. So did it

correlate with the press tour, like seeing himself on stuff drunk? I think so. I mean, I don't know. We haven't had that deep of a conversation, but I think it had a profound effect, both the movie and afterwards. You're sober. Yeah. Did you reach out to him? Let me know if this is. too personal. No, not at all. You reach out to him, when you see someone like that, who's your friend, yeah. Do you feel a responsibility to reach out to them and say, hey, I'm sober. If you want to talk about this, I'm here. Yeah, I tried a few times here and there. I never tried to beat him over the head with it, but I think it was obvious to him that he had a drinking problem. And he talks about it in the movie. He says, you know, and he's worried that if it's too late or not. But I never tried to go like, listen,

here, buddy boy, we're taking you to rehab or whatever, which is funny because the movie ended up costing, I think what a rehabilitation clinic would have cost. So I got to make my movie instead. Yeah, yeah, it worked out for both of us. I mean, this is a way better way to spend money. So I tried and, you know, you tried to lead by example of going, oh, yeah, remember we used to do that, but now I don't do that. Right. And look how well I'm doing. I thought that would. That's a good way to do it. Yeah, yeah. Look at this. Yeah, yeah. I woke up at 8 a.m. I did all the things I said I was going to do yesterday. So he got the message eventually, and I'm like, I've never been more proud of a person. I feel like I struggle with this all the time. I'm sure you've lost friends to addiction. I've lost friends who are dead. And you just, I feel like you go, when is the point where you intervene with someone? Yeah.

It's very, very tricky. And ultimately, you can't actually change anybody or make any decisions for anybody. All you can do is say, I love you. This is bumming me out. I'm here. But unfortunately, as they say in recovery, it's for the people that want it, not the people that need it, always. So they have to want to do something, which he finally did.

I like to think I had some part in it. Because if I don't think about my movie changing his life, I just think about the money I lost. So it gives me some amount of spent, not lost, spent. That, by the way, is one of the things that if they're indie filmmakers listening or watching or aspiring. Like, it's just a losing proposition. Indie film is just flushing money down the toilet. Yeah, especially now. It's like worse than ever now.

feels like. But it's, you know, but I, meanwhile, I love it. Yeah, yeah, of course. All I, all I do is watch independent film. Well, people are going to keep making movies. And now we had a couple of movies, obsession and backrooms just did really well. And, um, Spider-Man's making $75 billion, whatever it is. The Independent Spine Spider-Man. Spider-Man. Yeah, yeah. But at least, you know, a rising tide lifts all boats, maybe. Yeah, I think so. So maybe it's, it's coming back. And I feel like comedians are in a unique position that so many of us have followings and you can put comedians in that have a following and then people go, I want to go see whoever in this movie. Maybe that helps. One of your podcast is Tuesdays with Stories. Yeah.

Do you ever run out of Stories? Of course. Well, I always say this and people will go, these were no stories and I'm like, I think you only get like four real stories a year. A human being. Yes. Only has about four stories a year. I was a Top. Topps. And then the other thing is all the great comedy.

I was just with Henry Phillips. You know Henry, right? And Henry Phillips is how I met your wife, because years ago, he was crashing on my couch and then he was crashing, I think, on your couch. That's right, yeah, yeah. Sarah's couch. Yeah. Well, he's the best, and he has like, you got to, you got to see List. Oh, that makes me feel good. He's the best. Well, he retains every story. I hold on to a story for like a couple minutes. Henry Phillips is astonishing. It's like an encyclopedia. It's amazing. Yeah. But anyway, I was just with him. But we were talking about so, and I'm not wildly successful, but I'm successful enough that I don't get nearly as many stories because now my stories are like, oh, I flew Delta first class to San Jose and I did five shows and they were pretty, pretty well sold, not sold out. The crowds were great. Nobody interrupted. And then I flew home. Right. And the hotel was pretty nice. Whereas the first, you know, well, for me, a long time, 15 years was like I was at a VFW. They tried to rip me off.

A guy took a sword out. You know what I mean? I took a sword out. There's a lot more of those stories. With success comes less stories. Or good comedy stories anyways, I feel like. We should take that apart because I think that that's true. I think it's like, I mean, unless you're Richard Pryor and you let yourself on fire.

Right, right. Yeah. Yeah. If you have a drug problem, you're still getting good stories. Like, there's a handful of people who held on in the storytelling space because they were doing wild stuff. Well, that's another amazing thing about Henry Phillips, is he finds so much humor and so many things that he has a story that I wouldn't even think to retell, but he tells it in such a funny way that it's great. He's another one, by the way, made like a great independent film Punching the Clown. Yeah, I think it's the best movie ever about comedy.

We just came here to plug Henry's stuff. No, I know. But punching the clown is, I think, the best movie ever made about stand-up. It's like so... It's unbelievably good. He really captures it. It's about being like a road comic. Yeah.

There is something to this idea of like, you have less stories somehow when you age. Although then it tips the other way, I think, because then you're closer to death through natural causes. Yeah, yeah. So then it's like you've got a lot of stories about like, well, any day now. Yeah. Boy, that's frightening. Yeah. I don't like that.

Yeah, it's almost like you have great stories when you're young because it's insane and you're messing up all the time. you're making mistakes constantly. Right. And then in your middle age, it's sort of, I feel like you're tracing what happened when you were young. Right. You're like, okay, that was a mess, but I have enough oxygen right now to sort of recount it.

Right. And make sense of it and maybe put it in a context that is a story. And then when you get old, you're like, okay, I'm dying. Yeah, and things start to get weird again. You fall down the stairs, stuff like that. Yeah. You can't see anymore. things like that.

And then hopefully you're able enough to get on stage to tell those stories. But we got AI now. We're going to be 175 years old. That's going to fix it. No problem. I'm sure that's going to fix it. We're going to be running marathons in three decades. What to you qualifies as a story worth telling on stage?

I don't know. I have a really hard time recognizing what could be a bit. I don't know if you've ever had that. I have so many things that ended up being like big, successful bits for me that I have were old stories that I would tell all the time. And people would be like, do you do that on stage? I'm like, it never occurred to me. So I don't always know. So in other words, it's the people around you telling you, you should do that as a bit that caused you to try it as a bit. Yeah. And I'll think like, no, that's not really a bit. And then, but again, it's a lot of

its confidence because I think, well, you have to know me or the situation or maybe this won't work. I started telling more stories the longer I do stand-up. What do you think that people, I always go back to this thing that Seinfeld said in an interview in the 80s that I listened to for a bunch of times where he was like, so much of comedy is figuring out like what's funny about you. Right. And like a lot of times it takes a long time to figure out. Like what was the thing that you feel like maybe you didn't get that was funny about

you that people had to tell you? I don't know. Well, I think a lot of the things, I mean, I was very, very. neurotic and anxious and had panic disorder and OCD and all these things. But those were all very serious to me. Yeah. You know what I mean? When it's your thing, it's not funny. But I would be talking about it in a very serious way. People would be like, this is hilarious. You should say this on stage. And I'm like, say this on stage. I want to kill myself. Like, I'm this is horrified. So I think, I think for me, kind of taking care of mental health is what allowed me to get

funnier because I'd have more of a sense of you. You know, people, have this thing of like these tortured artists but I'm like I don't want to be tortuary I'm only I'm funnier when I'm happy or relaxed or enjoying myself so I had to kind of get through a lot of you know mental health stuff to be better on stage I think I was gonna I was gonna jot this on I had a physical this morning and I was like kind of shot this down because like you know they go through the checklist sometimes it's like you have suicidal thoughts I'm kind of just like say more about that Right. What do you mean? Isn't there a gray area? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I'm like, most days, but I'm not going to...

Most days. You should write most days. Yeah, I'm not going to, but I definitely think about it all the time. Yeah. I find, and hopefully this isn't triggering to people, I find thinking about suicide to be comforting. Yeah. Because I'll be, if I'm going through what anxiety or depression, whatever it is, I'm like, well, I could kill myself. And then I'm like, well, I don't want to do that. So let me work backwards. I'm like, that feels like too much. But knowing it's an option that kind of sells you. Yeah. Jud

Apatow said something kind of similar to that. He's always like, when he gets anxious about something, he'll just think of what is the worst case scenario. Right. Well, I could walk on stage and I could trip. And then, you know, someone's nachos would fall in my face. It would sear my face. You know what I mean? Right. They'd take me to the hospital, blah, blah, blah. And then, and I'd, and I'd, and I'd, and I, At the end of it, it's like, well, I'm still alive. Yeah, yeah. Still be, yeah, at the end of that, I'm all, I'm all right. I had that with, I used to have panic attacks, panic disorder, and I would have them pretty

frequently. And I actually started getting one on Conan, on one of my Conan episodes. And it was really frightening, and I was like shaking. I would have really serious panic attacks. So another word, on stage. You're in the middle of like, this Conan late in with Conan, with Colin O'Brien? Or the Los Angeles one at TBS. It was like minutes before.

I went on, I started to have, because I was really going through it at the time. This is like 2017. Can you describe what it feels like? It would, it's so hard, because physically, it's easier to describe, of course, like, my heart would, like, race, and I'd start to feel kind of dizzy and shaking. I would shake real violently all the way through, like head to toe. And then you get in your head that people can see you shaking, and it's so hard to describe mentally. And now it's been so long. I feel similar to like trying to think of a hangover. It's been so long

since I've actually had it. But it would come on and there would be nothing to stop it. Once the ball was kind of rolling, I couldn't get out of it until it's almost like an orgasm. Like it was like, it would build up and then finally I'd be like, okay, it passed. And it was really horrible. And there was a period, a couple periods of my life, like 2003, 2004. And I was like 21. And then again in like 2017, which that was the year I was getting married or was leading up to me getting married. So then I got in my head, I'm like, I'm marrying the wrong woman.

And my therapist was very helpful. He was like, no, you're not marrying the wrong woman, but you are about to go through a massive life change and it's bringing back these old feelings. But anyway, so I would just... So you're backstage at Conan. Yeah, and the feeling is like loss of control. Your head's spinning and I'm like,

I can't control what's about to happen. And my big fear, whenever I did late night, because I had dealt with panic attacks in the past was I'm going to have a panic attack, I'm not going to be able to go out there, and the guy with a headset's going to run out and say, hey, Conan, sorry, we don't, and Conan's going to go, what the fuck, get him out here, what is this? And the audience is going to be, and so all this starts going through your head. Right. And then it was like that, like manifesting, like, oh my God, it's happening. The thing I was afraid of is happening right now. And what happened was you kind of,

and this is how to get through a panic attack on it, is going, okay, well, I have to go do it. I'm not going to say I can't. And then, you know, they open the curtain. It's anxiety inducing even if you don't have anxiety. Yeah. And I came out and started telling the jokes and I kind of flub a line. And then what helped me was I flubbed a line and then I did an off the cuff thing, which puts you in the moment because you're no longer reciting something. I was like, oh my God, I'm nervous right now. And that kind of got a laugh. And so that kind of took me out of it. And by the end of it, I felt much better. And then, of course, it's over. So you feel the relief, the set I mean. And after that, it was like, oh, my worst fear actually happened. I had a panic attack on television.

And nobody can even tell. Like, you watch it, you can't really tell that I'm having a panic. I kept my hands, I kind of held my hands together. And. Right. I should do heroin now. Yeah, yeah. I kind of felt like I can do anything now. So that was like hugely helpful. And it was the last panic attack I had because... Really? To the date, to this date, I feel like everything I have never fully goes away. Yeah, yeah, sure. It's there. Nothing's forever.

But, yeah, so I had a panic attack on TV, and it went great, and nobody was like, hey, you seemed crazy up there. I mean, I'm sure someone on YouTube did, but... And Conan never knew. No. He was like, that was great, and yada, yada. And I think it was one of the best

late-night sets I've ever had, actually. Maybe I should do it more. This is called The Slow Round. Is there a song that makes you cry? Oh, yeah. I mean, sometimes wind beneath my wings by Bet Midler. And I just officiated my friend Tom Dustin's wedding. And this is my little joke that I thought was funny.

I said, you probably weren't thinking I was going to quote Bet Midler, but there's so many Midler's here. Oh, my God. And like a third of the crowd laughed, and most of them are like, what? But there's the line, the second verse in that song, where he says, it might have appeared, or she says, it might have appeared to go unnoticed, but I have it all here in my heart.

I want you to know, I know the truth. I would be nothing without you. And so I spoke those words to him, and that made him sob. And I got like misty-eyed. So that song, I guess, is very touching to me. And then there's a lot of songs that did make me cry, but I've listened to so many times.

They don't really too much anymore. Who are you jealous of? Everybody. Really? No, no. I'm jealous of Sam Maril, who's a close friend of, and not like actively jealous, like, you son of a bitch, because he's my favorite comedian and a close friend. But he's so good at, disciplined at writing jokes. And he writes all, every day, he'll be like, you want to bounce bits?

And I'm like, I have no bits to bounce. He's like, well, that's why we bounce. I'm like, no, I have literally nothing. I have zero. That's why we bounce. And he's a guy that will bounce a joke off of me. Yeah. And I'm like, I don't see anything there.

And then I'll see him three nights later, and it's the best joke I've ever heard, because he can really stick with a bit and write a bit. And he's also just become so successful that he's meeting all these people that he really admired. He's hanging out with the Knicks. And I'm like, I want to hang out with the Red Sox. Right. How did you do that?

Right. So that's the kind of thing that I'm like, oh, and Stavros, Salke is another close friend of mine who has the exact career I want. He's like selling out theaters. And also he came to drop off cookies at my house. And then he's like, all right, I got to run to Emma Stone's house to drop off cookies to her. And I'm like, what? That's my number one lady. As an actor, I mean, she's beautiful, obviously, but like she's my favorite actor. And she's just amazing. So I'm just, jealous of my two closest friends. I shouldn't say closest friends. There's a bunch of people who's feeling probably just got hurt when I said they were my closest friends. Do you remember being caught in a lie? I'm not a big liar.

And I always joke about this. It's not for any moral reason. I'm just too embarrassed to get caught. Yeah. I would love to lie in sheet. I just feel like such an idiot if you get caught. kind of lie's tough one

I don't have a lot of memories I the only thing adjacent I can think of is one time we were all hanging out in a group this when I was drinking in Boston there was a group of people and I thought this one guy who I didn't like had left and I started just openly

trashing him without realizing he was still right there and then I just had to be that mean to him so it would look like I'm just an asshole instead of a guy who talked shit behind people's back and so the rest of the hang

I'd be like yeah you shut up you little piece of shit and people were like what is this but I would rather have someone think I'm a horrible person

than that I talk about it so that's like the closest thing I can think to feeling that way but yeah I don't I don't have a lot of lies

going at any time but I am again I don't want to sound like I'm virtue signaling I you know I'm a horrible person I just don't lie about it. What's the best piece of advice someone's giving you that you used? Well, the best piece of

advice I ever got, and it's funny, I just shared this, passed this on to somebody else. I was going to do Letterman in this is 2013, and I was anxious about it and excited about it. And I was asking everyone for everyone I ever knew that did a late night. I was asking them. And some people were like, well, the monitors are lower than you think and Paul's closer than you realize. And Nick Griffin, who's one of my favorite comedians ever, he said, my advice is that you don't need my advice. And it really, truly was,

it sounds like a cop-out, but it was so helpful because I realized, oh, I'm a professional comedian that's been doing comedy at the time for 13 years. Yeah. I have great sets.

I got the set passed, so it's good enough. Yeah. And the crowd's hot, and he was like, you don't need anything for me. And that was extremely, helpful, and I still try to remember that whenever I'm doing anything, is that I'm a very capable

person. You got this far. Yeah, yeah. I know what I'm doing. Can you remember a particularly bad roommate or neighbor? Man, I've been extremely blessed with roommates. I talk about this a lot. I've lived with exclusively comedians.

I've never lived with the non-comedian, including my wife. I've been roommates almost entirely with like. really good friends. I had an apartment in the story of there was one guy, there was two comedians, three comedians counting me, and then this one guy that worked at the airport who was an Indian man who was in 9-11, in the World Trade Center, got trampled and survived. He walked with a limp. Oh my gosh. And afterwards, him and his, I think he had PTSD or whatever. I don't know. Him and his wife split and he ended up living with us. And he was a great guy, very nice guy. and I guess this is more just an amusing anecdote because he was a great guy and a great roommate.

But he worked at LaGuardia Airport and he was in charge of, back then they were the red coats, people that kind of help you and point your directions. I think there was a lot of people. I think it was a very entry-level job and it wasn't the smartest people working there and he was in charge of them so he would have to wrangle them. And I would hear him on the phone through the wall because we shared a wall. And he said one of the most beautiful and hilarious things I've ever heard in my life. He said, do yourself a fail.

I'm going to do the accent. I hope that's not inappropriate. Do yourself a... Because it's funnier. Do yourself a favor. I can't do accents well. Smash your head against the wall three times and throw yourself down a flight of stairs. I lost the accent. But he said, do yourself a favor. Smash your head against a wall three times and throw yourself down a flight of stairs.

What was the context of it? I don't know, but I know it was somebody that works for him. And you're saying that to your employee is just the funniest thing I've ever heard in my life. Do you have any bits literally right after you're like Samarillo's like you want to bounce bits and you're like I don't have bits I got a couple bits you want to do you want to do you got out there my newest bit and it's it's hitting but it needs a lot more is and this is true of course I eat a lot of M&Ms when I go to the movie that's like my go-to movie candy and I I have a thing I'm always curious about how long something's been around for so I looked it up and M&Ms were created in like 1942 and it was in the army, like the G.I.'s candy was melting and they wanted to come up with a way

to carry chocolate that wouldn't melt in their pockets. So they came up with the hard shell. And I, the joke is I'm like, that's when I realized we were fighting the Nazis with chocolate in our pocket. I didn't realize. And I do this really silly act out where I pull my hand up and go, oh, can we?

And that hits. So I gotta figure out some more stuff. And I tried doing it. I did it like three times. I was like, Kit Katz invented in the jungles of Vietnam. then the crowd wouldn't react at all. And I feel like they would, I thought that would be funny. Wait, what? Kit gets invented in the jungle of Vietnam.

It's just like an outrageous, ridiculous. Yeah, like, oh yeah, that's where we, we invent all of our candies in wars. Yeah. And then people were like, huh. I guess like, maybe they just thought like, maybe there's chocolate plants in Vietnam. I guess my question to poke at the bit would be like, what is the, what is the, at the core of what interesting about it to you. Because I think it's interesting, but it's a long walk.

Well, the thing that's so fascinating to me is I just, they never, in any World War II movie, all the things I've read about military action that we've taken, I never see anybody eating little chocolates or having candy bars. And the idea of it just being melted in the pocket is just so funny to me. And so that, like I said, that kills, but I got to come up with other ways to, and I do I'd act out where I'm going like, have you ever tried these in popcorn? The salt and kerry. That's good. Have you done that? I've done it a couple times. Yeah, that gets a little something. And then an audience member came up and was like, the Nazis were also eating chocolate, but with

meth in it or whatever they had. I don't know what the drug. With like drugs? I think. Oh, really? I couldn't tell if he was joking or not. But I think they were all amphetamines or whatever. I don't know that much about drugs. For a guy in recovery, I'm kind of ignorant what's I think like, yeah, it's, there's also maybe a joke to like you do this long setup and you go, so anyway, I'm the guy who you don't want to get stuck talking to at a party. Right, right, right. I could tell you any product. Well, I had a bit before about when Mountain Dew came out.

But it is interesting to me a lot of the time is whatever came out before you were born when you were a kid always existed. But then you realize you're like, oh, this was created like three years before. before I was born or stuff like that. I remember watching Forrest Gump for the first time and Dr. He's drinking Dr. Pepper. I thought Dr. Pepper was like new. Yeah.

Because I had heard of Coke and then all of a sudden someone had a Dr. Pepper. I'm like, oh, there's a new soda. And then Forrest Gump was drinking it at the White House. And I was like, whoa. This is a digression off of what you're saying. But like, I have to say like for whatever reason recently, I've had this thing where when I see whether it's M&Ms or Sun chips, whatever the hell thing it is, I'm always thinking about how long has it existed in that bag?

That's another fascinating question. I think about that all the time. I didn't used to think about this when I was young, and I'm like staring at this stuff going like, what? I'm not going to fall for your crazy. This has been around for 10 years bullshit. That's crazy.

Yeah, no, that is an interesting thought. And similarly, the thing I think about all the time, which I feel like is in the same category, is how many potatoes are there? How many potatoes are there? Within a five-mile radius, there's got to be, I mean, we're in New York City, there's got to be 400 businesses that are selling potatoes all day, every day. I've never been to McDonald's and they're like, we're out of fries, breakfast potatoes, hash bread, I mean, are there billions and billions of potatoes? Right.

What's the deal with potato? I almost think, like, with the chocolate thing, yeah, I almost think, like, with the chocolate thing, it's like, you might, you just might want to think about, like, why does that preoccupy you? Right. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. Because it's so specific. Yeah, maybe that's the angle is why am I looking up all these things? I had one thing today, and it's like a follow-up to a bit.

I had a couple specials ago, old man in the pool, where I go for a pulmonary test. You know, that one where you blow into the tube and the doctor. And it was a true story. You know, he was like, I blew in and the doctor goes, go ahead and do it. And I was like, no, I did it. He was like, no, do it again. I was like, I did it again. And then he goes, totally true story.

He goes, if I was going by this, I'd say you're having a heart attack right now. Oh, God. And I was like, am I thought I was, I would come here. So am I having a heart attack? Yeah, help me. It's like a long bit. So anyway, I'm making a film soon. So to make sure I'm okay, they make you go to a physical with like their doctor.

Right. And so like not your home, you don't have home team advantage. Yeah. It's the visitor squad. but you're the visiting team. So I went, and then they were like, blow into the tube. I was like, oh, the stakes are so high. Yeah.

So I'm like, the woman is saying, like, Andrea, I'm like, Andrea. Like, I don't do that well on this test. I was trying to like smooth it over. Yeah, yeah. Like, you know, so I don't do great on this test. And she goes, you'll be fine. So you go, like, I did it. And she goes, okay.

You know, it's not great. she's trying again. Go like this. She's like, okay, okay. And then she goes, she goes, she goes, she goes, Mike, she's so nice. She goes, imagine,

she goes, where do you like to shop? Like, I don't know, Whole Foods? She was like, no, no, no, like clothes. I don't know. Bonobos? She goes, imagine I'm going to, if you blow hard enough, I'm going to give you a $5,000 gift card to

this is hilarious. It's like you're six. And so I go, who. She goes, that's the best anyone's blown all month. Wow. And I was like, man, I guess that's how much I want a new outfit. That's amazing. And you can just go.

You're a very capable man. Apparently. You can go buy an outfit. You can jog there. You can sprint there. Apparently, that's how much I want to look like every other man in Brooklyn. You're going to look great. I want you to go there.

I want you to jog there now that you have your new found lung capacity. Yeah, yeah. And get a nice outfit. So I thought, I don't know. There's got to be something. There's maybe something there. There's some bit there. Well, just the idea of being tricked into performing well, it really feels very like you're a child.

Yeah. Like they're licking your ear and they're like, is there any giraffes in here? So you'll sit still. That's what they do with my son. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Put your tongue out like you're licking an ice cream.

Yeah. You know? Yeah. That's you. What is your system? Do you just jot down things into your phone or your notebook? Yeah, now I used to do a lot of sitting. And I used to have a method where I would sit at a coffee shop with a mirror. So I'd be in front of myself. So if I wasn't writing, I'd look at myself and be like, look at you, you piece of shit, not writing. But now I don't write like that anymore. I do mostly I'll jot something down and kind of, that's true. Have you done that as a bit? That's funny. No, maybe that is funny. I try to do a joke about, I'll write, and this is true. Like, I write notes to myself like I hate myself. Like, I'll write like, do long.

with exclamation points, like I'm going to see it. You're like, oh, Jesus, I got to do laundry. Yeah. And I think of my future self as just a big moron. Like, I'll be like, bring your passport. Yeah. Like somehow tomorrow morning I won't be able to remember this. No, I find the movie Memento to be very relatable in that way.

It's just all these notes to yourself and the guy has no memory. And I'm like, why do I relate to Guy Pear so much? This was a premise I had This is a bit I had about I saw a thing on Instagram that popped up These parenting things And it was like It said one of the worst things

You can say to your kid is you're so smart Because it puts the value on them being smart So then if they can't figure something out They will feel less valued Because then now it seems like they're dumb And you should say instead of you're so smart You try so hard Or you listen so well

and the joke was a very stupid joke but I was like but that can't be the worst thing like surely you're a worthless piece of shit loser is worse than you're so smart right like I don't know what the study was but I feel like I wish I never had you you're fat like

the gradation has got to be that's not the worst thing considerably worse things to say than you're so smart in fact I think you're so smart if you had like the worst thing and the best thing You're so smart has to be closer to the best. It's got to be eight or nine out of ten on the good side.

So that was a premise I had. I don't know if that's anything. No, I like that a lot. Maybe I'll keep at it then. I had one the other day. I did a show and then tuck it. And I was like on stage. And I was like, sometimes you know, you improvise on stage.

And then like you're saying a thing. You're like, oh, that's sort of funny as a bit for real. And it was like, I was like, oh, I can. came here years ago with my wife and she's not here tonight because I have no excuse for why she's not here. She decided not to come and then now I have to lie and make up reasons why she's not here, which is like I feel like a part of marriage is like you end up in these weird situations where if your husband or wife doesn't come, you have to be like, yes, so she broke her leg. And they're like, is she okay? Yeah, no, no, it's like a mini break. Right, right. It's like

You had not one that's more than a week. Yeah, yeah. No, it's a quick one. It's just a rap. It's not even a cast or anything. I find it's like, I didn't, I don't know if there's a bit there, but I will say like, I feel like a huge part of my life is once you are married, you end up representing. It's like you're the lawyer or the agent or the manager for this other person. And you got to be like, no, no, no, she loves you.

Yeah, yeah. She wanted to be here. I always feel like, too, if my wife doesn't come, I have to say, we're not getting a divorce. We just, we love each other. We're very happy. She just wasn't able to make it. Yeah, yeah. Because that's the first day.

In my family, at least, if you show up without your partner, they're like, they're through. She's cheating. She must have a boyfriend. Yes. So I'd always feel like. They go to 10. They go to 10 out of 10 on the disaster front. When we were trying to get pregnant, she kept having to stay because we did IVF.

It was a whole thing. We're 100 years old. So she wouldn't come, but we weren't telling my family that we were trying to get pregnant because we didn't want them. So I kept saying she's got a short film, she got a role in a short film or a sketch. And then I realized none of these films are ever going to come out. My family was going to be like, where are these movies? So it just, yeah, wasn't great. Yeah.

Now we're making all these short films so that my lies are real. Yeah. She's like, oh, wow, you're not going to be. No, I had to, whatever. I don't know. Do you have anything else on the jokes? Um, I might have something here. Now, this is something I've thought about for many years, and I said this once on stage,

you've got to laugh and never again. But why does trash have a smell? Like, it smells like trash, whatever you put in there. Yes. It's like, it's made up of different things. But if I said that house smells like trash, you would have a smell in mind, the same smell we all had in mind. Right. Even though it could just be scrap metal.

It could be different things. Yeah. Yeah. Somehow a banana peel. and a little bit of pizza crust and, you know, dirty tissues, smells like a thing. Yeah. Again, I don't know if this is a bit,

but certainly it's something I thought of and wrote down in my phone. Yeah, I like it. You can't argue with that part. No, no, no, no. I definitely wrote that down. No, it's in, I think there, it's a, it's certainly a truism. It falls into the category of like, that's a good point. Yeah, I'm sure you've had this many times where you've come up with a thing that sounds interesting

and it's a good point, and then you say it, and you're like, maybe something will just come out while I say this. Here's my theory on that. That's what all these cards are, by the way, and we're surrounded by all these joke cards. A lot of them aren't jokes. They're half thoughts like that. Right.

Where I go, I don't know if you have this, but I'll be like, oh, if I pair this idea with this idea and this idea, that is a joke. That might become something. Yeah, I think I have. It's hard to me to think of an example right now, but I've had many times that way I have a bit that doesn't really work or it's half a thing.

And then years later, I dust it off and it becomes something. Because I think, like, when I hear that, I'm like, oh, I think that if you're doing a story about, like, let's say, taking out the trash and something happens in the story. Along the way, it's like, by the way, trash doesn't smell like trash. It just smells like whatever the thing is. Well, that's what I, that was how it ended up happening the one time I did it because this is a different bit that is, I guess, new and worth bouncing is people will say, oh, stay with me, I have garlic breath.

And I'm like, well, I don't mind garlic breath. You ate garlic and now your breast smells like garlic. I don't like when someone eats, you know, a chicken parm and their breast smells like trash. That's when it's weird to me. And then that made me think of the trash thing. Right. There's something funny to me about being like, oh, I got onion breath. And I'm like, right.

You ate onions and your breast smells like onions. That's not crazy. Right. Bad, bad, bad breath smells like. like cat shit. Right. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, for sure.

It doesn't smell like food. It smells like rotten, rotten food, I guess. Well, I think bad breath, well, morning breath, I think, is some kind of like eight hour. Like potpourri. Yeah, like an eight hour kind of, I don't even know what you describe it as something in, whatever's happening in your throat and your mouth over the course of a bunch of hours. Yeah. And then it's like, hey, here's what we got. Here's what we have. And that's bad. But actually, it being, like, I have to say, I don't hate coffee breath when people have caught. Yeah, I like coffee. Yeah, it smells like coffee. What are you going to do? It's sort of nice. Well, again, even cigarette breath. If I can directly draw what is causing it, it's more to me when it's a mysterious thing. This is a digression off of that. But I think, like, Some of the smell thing and breath and all that stuff, it's also personal.

Like, if my wife's breath smells like coffee, I'm like, well, I love my wife. Right. I love her coffee breath. But if someone's, like, really annoying you and they have coffee breath, it's like, yeah, and the other thing about Todd, coffee breath. It's a great point. Like, it builds up. One time my niece said to me, this is true too, she said, your breath is bad.

This is when she was like six, and there was a pause and she went, it's always bad. like she didn't even let me go like well I was on the plane but then I asked my wife and she's like no no your breath is great so I think to a kid just any kind of breath is going to be bad it still hurt my feelings this is the one that I really think could be a joke but I had this memory recently my dad comes home I'm a kid he's like I had dinner with my friend Roy we decided we're going to buy a gun. If one of us is ever in a vegetative state, we promised to kill the other person. Then he goes, he goes, what do you think of that?

And I thought, I thought, I go, well, you know, I'm just thinking about whether we're going to have gym class on Friday, whether I should wear shorts under my pants or bring shorts in a bag, but then I'd have to take off my pants in front of everybody. And then I'd be in my underwear. So I think I'm going to wear shorts under the pants. put the pants on after gym class. Oh, so yeah, I'm thinking about that and then you and Roy should probably kill each other. Those are the two things I'm thinking about. No, that's a, I mean, that's like an extremely rich premise, obviously. The idea of just splitting a gun is also just

amazing. Going havesies on a gun, you both signed for it. I mean, where does it live? Is it, six months out of the year? No, that's great. Also, you're like, couldn't you do the garage with the hose? Oh, right. You've got to shoot someone in the face? It's crazy. Couldn't you just come watch with the house? Yeah, some kind of like, there's got to be a better way. That's funny. Yeah.

Score some drug, whatever it is. Don't shoot each other. Right. You're going to watch your face. Score some drugs. He's a doctor, for God's sakes. Yeah. I mean, there's got to be.

Don't watch your friend's face explode. That's terrible. So the last thing we do is working out for a cause. Is there a nonprofit you like to contribute to or raise money for? And then what we do is we, link to them in the show notes and we contribute to them. I mean, I do a benefit from my uncle's fire department every year. Holbrook, Massachusetts.

I don't know if you know Holbrook, but we do a benefit for their fire department every single year. And they have a Venmo. I'm sure they could use money. They're always low on funds. Holbrook, Mass. Yeah. Fire department.

Wholebrook, Massachusetts Fire Department. Yeah. I'm just going to look on their site and see if they do donations. They do. Yeah, there you go. We do a comedy show every year. It's funny because, you know what? I'm just going to put it in as,

HolbrookfD.org. You can contribute. All right, great. We're going to donate to them. That's fantastic. Great. Yeah, we do a show every year. And now the resume of people

that have done the show when they weren't famous, Tim Dillon, Stavros Halkius, Dan Soder, Nate Bargatsi, have all done the show. And my uncle likes to joke. He's like, everyone's huge and flying private, but you.

I'm like, well, I, you know, I get upgraded to first class pretty often. Soda doesn't fly private. Fuck him. But yeah, we've been doing it for a long time. Joe List, thanks for coming on the show. Thank you for having me. I'm thrilled to be here.

This is fun. This is a blast. Working it out because it's not done. Working it out. That's going to do it for another episode of working it out. You can follow Joe List on Instagram at Joe List Comedy. Check out his tour dates at comedianjoList.com. He'll be in Toronto, September 24th, and then Rochester, September 25th and 26th.

Check out his documentary, Tom Dustin, Portainte. portrait of a comedian. You can find the first 20 minutes of that on YouTube for free. And then there's a link to watch the whole thing for six bucks. I highly recommend it. Check up berbigas.com to sign up for the mailing list to be the first to know about my upcoming shows. Our producers of working it out or myself along with Peter Salamo, Joseph Barbiglia, Mabel Lewis, and Gary Simons. Sound Mixed by Shub Sarin, Supervising Engineer Kate Balinski. Special thanks to Jack Antonoff and bleachers for their music. My wife, the poet Jay Hope Stein, and our daughter, Una, who built the original Radio Fort made of pillows.

Thanks most of all to you who are listening. If you enjoy the show, rate us and review us on Apple Podcasts, and also tell your friends, tell your enemies, tell your early on-time friends. Next time you're meeting a friend and they text you to let you know they're early,

just say, hey, I love that you're early. While you've got some time to kill, I've got an idea for you. Try listening to Mike Perbigley as Working It Out Podcast. It's work. Mike Perviglia talks to other comedians about the creative process,

even compulsively, uncomfortably early comedians like Joe List. Thanks, everybody. We're working on that. We'll see you next time.