Mike Birbiglia's Working It Out - 24. Natasha Lyonne: No F**kin’ Around

Episode Date: December 7, 2020

Mike welcomes the great Natasha Lyonne, co-creator and star of the hit Netflix series Russian Doll. Natasha opens up about her own process as well as the best advice she’s received. Natasha holds Mike’s feet the fire about his new material—so he scraps his prepared jokes for some personal stories he wasn’t planning to tell. This episode is like planning your own funeral, which is also discussed. Don’t miss it. Please consider donating to: https://www.wpaonline.org/ https://www.girlsclub.org/

I'm having that thing right now where I just... So I watched Russian Doll when it came out, but I didn't finish it because I'm bad at finishing series. And then I watched the rest of it tonight, and I'm just like really emotional about it. And it's so... It's a lot it's gonna be okay um you're gonna be okay hey it's mike and we're back with another episode of working it out this time with Natasha Lyonne. She's the writer, director, co-creator, and star of Russian Doll, which is one of the best things I've ever seen on TV.

It was nominated for 13 Emmys. It won three Emmys. I mean, it's extraordinary. I couldn't recommend it more highly. She also recently directed another Working It Out guest, Sarah Cooper, did a special on Netflix called Everything's Fine. Natasha directed and produced it. It is off the wall. It is hilarious.

It's bizarre. I couldn't recommend it more highly. more highly. I really wanted to have Natasha on today to talk about Russian Doll and its relation in some ways to the YMCA pool show that I'm developing, which is all about death, and Russian Doll is all about death.

And we had a great talk, and I learned so much from talking to her. Oh, one note is when she's talking about Fred, she's talking about her significant other, the great Fred Armisen from Saturday Night Live, Portlandia, etc. She calls him Freddy. Enjoy my chat with Natasha Lyonne. We're working it.

Well, first of all, we're allowed to say you're writing the second season, right? Yes. Okay. Okay. There's a lot to unpack here. So when you and Fred, am I allowed to say your boyfriend Fred? Yeah, you're at Public Stuff together? You know, I feel like it's, it is official. So you and Fred came to see my

Broadway show, the new one, and then we went out to dinner afterwards and you, Jen just reminded me of this. You really sort of just said like, yeah, this thing Russian Doll and you know it's weird and but you know I don't know if people are going to like you know like it was you really had you downplayed it so much and then I'm watching it and I'm like I

you know I'm crying and I'm like this is one of the best things I've ever seen thank you yeah you know I'm crying and I'm like, this is one of the best things I've ever seen. Thank you. Yeah, you know, I don't fuck around. So, you know, kind of my M.O., no fucking around. Yeah, sure, sure.

But I loved your play. That was a great night we had. That was a great night we had it was uh that was a great new york night and you you said something to me when you came backstage that i take with me to this very day because i think you're in addition to being a hilarious person you're a very wise person and a very generous person. You said to me, you go, look, I'll affect your voice a little bit, but other people do it much better. Melissa Villasenor, I think,

does it. I think Chloe Fineman does it. Do you like when people impersonate you or not? I like it so much that I asked Fred for my funeral to just put together because, you know I I was close with Nora Ephron I'm dropping that name as a big deal why not I I like to think that Nora Ephron was my mom and Lou Reed was my dad um and I really I really man did I cry when those people died like I did not cry for my own parents and um I really love them both. And I knew them both, Nora much more.

But her funeral, you know, was famously organized in advance. So I always think that it's, you know, I got to get ahead of that. But I'm not as organized clearly as, you know, one of the all-time human beings. But I have pre-organized with Fred that I want people to do their because, you know, it's like just over the Maya and Amy and Fred and Kevin Corrigan and Chloe Melissa, like you said, you know, there's just like it really it brings me great joy but also I recently found Micah Gardner who was the editor of this Sarah Cooper thing I just did he showed me this YouTube of Angelo Badalamonte

sort of recreating alone what it was like to create the score for Twin Peaks with David Lynch but David Lynch was not in the YouTube video. So now I've also added that I want them to play that YouTube. It's a lot of like Angelo moaning. That sounds great.

It's a hell of a YouTube. A hell of a YouTube. It's a hell of a YouTube. So you came back at the Court Theater on Broadway and you go, Mike, if I made a show like that, I wouldn't feel like I would have to do anything for 10 years. And I swear to God, like, I don't know if you feel it. I feel so much pressure to create all the time. It's like you can't keep up with the pace at which people consume things.

And so you, someone I respect so much, saying, like, don't worry about the next 10 years, like you just did that. It just made me, it took a load off. It's true, though, right? I mean, I always think about Carrie Fisher as like a template. I'm like, alright, you know, you do some, you gotta figure out your Star Wars, I guess

at some point to kick it off. Still working on that. You get your postcards from the edge. You know, you write some memoirs. You do your wishful drinking. Yeah. You know, you work it. And then you take it to Broadway.

You film it as a special and you keep it moving. You know what I mean? Like, how many things do we really need to say this is my shtick? But, so, you know, yeah, I really felt that way about your show. Like this is a big, this is a big one. This is a big wishful drinking you did. You know, it's kind of like. Wow.

Jesus. But I always think of that. The Elaine Stritch at Liberty or whatever, the Spalding Gray. I mean, like those are big kahunas and they shouldn't be. I mean, those people are motherfuckers and so are you that they can you know you guys can keep making them um but one should be sufficient is my point yeah i mean how much does any one person really have to say like i often think about that and i think about that a lot with young people i'm like you know go get some fucking life experience i mean jesus walked

you know muhammad walked buddha walked like get a little bit of fucking life in you if uh you want to have a round two and a second big speech to make right and that's sort of like the the big existential stuff that russian doll i think does so well and like that i'm i'm really trying to crack in my next show that i'm working on i'll i'll work out some material with you later on the show today but like the the next show i'm working on is called ymca pool and it's all about hitting middle age and being like, oh, I, you know, natural causes are coming. Like, you can just sort of see it for the first time.

It's fucking weird. You know, what the fuck? Like, actually, we're just these rotting, you know, masses? I mean, that is dark. That is creepy as hell. And this COVID shit is like the lockdown. I'm literally, I think I'm 300 years old.

I mean, I am just melting. And periodically, like I have to pull it together to do a Zoom. And I'm like, oh, do I still look like that? Or am I this fucking monster that I see in like the upside down camera and the fucking black mirror that is this fucking cell phone like because that mother that motherfucker is is not a pretty picture and um yeah it's just you know it comes for all of us uh there was there was a there was an article this week a science article that was like covid may be you know aging all of us by, you know, more years. And it's like, yeah, we know. Like, you don't have to give us the science article.

I really, I, you know, I, whatever, you know, my version of a joke, which is just nothing. But, you know, I really talk about a lot like that. Because I am dead serious about wanting these fucking AI organs. I feel like we are so close to the future. I mean, it is 2020. Like movies that were set in the future a long, long past. Like 2001 fucking Space Odyssey. We're 19 years past that.

They could not imagine that the greatest minds of all time could not conceive of a year past 2001 you know 1999 prince like you know yeah and here we are i'm like surely they are gonna come up with something and i can step into a pod and come out yep fully like there's two things i think about i like that futurama where they got to just the brains in a bubble. I like that. And there's like an old Kurt Vonnegut from Welcome to the Monkey House. And they're kind of, you know, going through, it seems like a rack of clothes for the night.

Do you want to be Danny DeVito? You want to be Grace Jones? What's the look for tonight is what you realize they're doing. They're just like two souls who are about to zip on full exterior outfits. And I'm like, that would be great. See, I could really get into that. Yeah, that's a good one. I could get into that.

That's actually one of the ideas I've kicked around for YMCA Pool is this idea that like, what if we are the last generation right before they figure out how to live forever? Oh, that would be fucked up. There's something about that that's crushing. But at least now, you know, you have a kid, so, you know. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. But, oh, so we're talking about, like, championing other people,

and it's like, you did that recently. You directed and produced Sarahah cooper's special everything's fine which is so good and that's how we started talking actually when that came out i was just like i just had to talk to you about it because it's so like she became famous during the pandemic for these tiktok videos where she's just like lip-s Trump and they just became like a sensation. I mean, really like a sensation, like they're wildly popular, but they're very mainstream.

But then you made this special with Sarah called Everything's Fine, where she plays like a morning TV anchor who is kind of slowly losing her mind in, in kind of like a, a network kind of way. And it's beautiful. I mean,

it really is. It's out. It's, it's, it's absurdist and it's funny and it's, but it's dark, like really dark. And I was just,

I was just like, whoa. And I was like, I was like, I was just like, whoa. And I was like, I was like, I can't believe they did. They like, they even got to do this. Yeah.

I mean, she's, she's extraordinary. And I, I think like, you know, Maya and I were so excited and, and Paula Pell like to discover that,

you know, she was so weird. You know what I mean? Like, like, to discover that, you know, she was so weird. You know what I mean? Like, because you're seeing something, but, you know, like, you know, many brilliant original people, they have a really specific and cracked point of view. Yeah. And that's what makes them, like, special and makes them, you know, pop.

So it was very fun to see. And that's what makes them like special and makes them, you know, pop. So it was very fun to see. Obviously, like it was a really specific, you know, I mean, we did the whole thing in, you know, weeks. Yeah. It was so extreme, the kind of turnaround for getting it out before the election. And I mean, we only met Sarah on Zoom. We didn't meet her in person until like, you mean, we only met Sarah on zoom. I, we didn't meet her in person until like, you know, the day before we were shooting, it was really wild. And so you're kind of just like getting people's like, you know, raw brains and like what they're into.

And, uh, I do, I think now I'm also like crashing a bit because the sort of pace of it was so, you know, it was like we're in pre-production on Russian Doll. And then like everybody else, of course, like the whole world, you know, shut down. And then, you know, it was like sort of like six months in the house. I got really good at Zelda. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. It's something. But you know what's a funny peak? You know what's a. Oh my gosh. Yeah. It's something. But you know what's a funny...

Oh, wait. Oh, that was a mistake. I wasn't trying to FaceTime you. I just couldn't get enough. It wasn't enough that you were on my computer or my phone. I was like, fuck it, I'm going to FaceTime him too. I was like,

can I put him on my TV? Just so the listeners understand, all of a sudden we're talking on the phone, and then it's Natasha Leone is FaceTiming you. Like, huh, well, we are recording on both of our computers and talking on the phone. I'm actually going to put the phone and the computer in the microwave just to see what happens. You know, we could FaceTime. I mean, you know, you know,

we could FaceTime. I mean, I guess, sure. I mean, I have to, I mean, what's a face?

What's a face? Uh, mine's 20 years older than it was six months ago. So, uh, the, Oh, so just give people a peek behind the curtain.

Like the, I actually called you. I was like, you know, we should have on this podcast we should have you and fred come on because you two together i was like i was literally thinking of the dinner we had in new york and i was like oh we should recreate that just on uh right on the podcast um and and you made this point about fred which i thought was so astute but all but uh you know

you were just like you were like no, no, no, he does bits. You're like, I don't do bits. You know, he's the bits guy. You know, have him on a separate episode. You have me on one. And then you go, this is the best part of all. You go, you make a movie with me and Fred. He goes, you put us in, you know, we play a couple.

You write the movie. You direct the movie. We make a little movie, you know. Well, because I'm really like a very game. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, sure. I know, I know. What else am I doing?

I mean, I don't have kids. So I'm like, you call me on the phone. You want to spend time with me and Fred. Go make a movie. That's what you do. You're a filmmaker, right? So like, whatever. I'm convinced we're going to make a movie together.

When I watch Russian Doll and I watch the way you're performing, I think to myself, that's the way when I work with actors, that's the way, that's what I want them to do, which is that you're, you're giving in whatever you're doing. You're just giving into the scene.

And it's actually transporting me in a way that this completely alt reality, which is what Russian doll is, feels like it is my reality when I'm watching it. Yeah, thanks. You know, it's, that's a wild one. I mean, first of all, so I mean, like Leslie Hedlund and Jamie Babbitt, who are the two other directors on the show are just incredible. And also like, I know them well, you know what I mean? So it's that thing of, you know, like Leslie and I are very tight in real life long before making that show together.

And Jamie Babbitt, obviously, I've been working with since, but I'm a cheerleader, which is like somehow 20 years ago. And then of course, like I have this, you know, lived experience that I'm bringing to the table and sort of putting on the page. And I found it immensely helpful to be writing, you know, my own material and also like, you know, there with, you know, with Leslie, with Jamie, you know. But really like that it was ours and not that I was kind of like performing for somebody in a way. I think there was like a real comfort in that. Also, I just think, yeah,

like so often I think I've been like afraid of being weird or other or like not whatever this Aryan dream boat that's supposed to be the ideal. And, you know, like that typology is so far removed from something I was able to attain. I don't even think I really identified with it. Like, you know, even when I would see sort of like Jenna Rollins, I'd be like, ah, but Peter Falk, I could do, you know? And I, so just the idea that the setup for that was sort of like asking to bring that as opposed to bury it um was very comforting you know what i mean like that we were building a character around that and that is also even just to like even just from an acting level to know what sort of you know a lot of

times like you'll get a script and you're on set and i've been doing this for what, uh, 35 years. Right. Um, and you get to set and like, historically I used to think like, Oh, surely like the writer, like every ellipses here really means something and come to discover once you're actually, you know, writing it that oftentimes things are even like an omit because they, you couldn't get access to the deli. So you had to move the scene to being inside a car. That's right. And that's why it feels like there's this invisible jump that the character is supposed to make from, how did I go from the apartment to the car?

Like, it just doesn't make sense. But you, you're trying to kind of infuse it with this, you know, you're giving other people this magic power of surely they know. And just to even know that there were those injuries in the scripts, but I knew how they got there. It was like, I was able to sort of fold that into the performance, make those leaps and those connections much easier because I knew where they were coming from, like what used to be there. So I always knew what I was actually playing or what our intention had been. Yes. You know, I get that. I get that when I'm watching it in a big,

big fucking way. Makes a big difference. Yeah, it does. It does. I mean, just to jump around a second, I want to point out,

I'd be remiss. I, and I, this may not go anywhere, but the, you know, the show deals with like timelines and space and time continuum and a lot of stuff like that.

You and I were on each other's timeline, whether you realized it or not, because when I moved to New York in the early 2000s, I had an improv group of my best friends called Little Man. And we performed at UCB Theater. And afterwards, we'd go to McManus Bar, which I'm sure you've spent time at McManus Bar, right? A lot of time. Horatio and Jake, a lot of time. Yeah. And so to me, in my Mike Birbiglia timeline, you, Natasha Lyonne, and Horatio Sands were the cool celebrities at the same bar as our little stupid improv group. And we were like, we're cool because they're here. Ah, old New York. Old New York.

You know, yeah. Man, we spent a lot of time in there. A lot of time. Same, same. So much time at McManus. And yeah, I really, i do i do miss all that so i have such a you know weird relationship with um like i just always been surrounded by funny people and like i was always just trying to be like fucking de niro or scorsese you know what

i mean like yeah no i guess i look back and it was like I guess Pee Wee Herman I guess Mike Nichols and Nora Ephron are my first job then Pee Wee Herman then Woody Allen people who's very popular now and then Slums of Beverly Hills was like Alan Arkin and Carl Reiner you know so I'm like oh I guess I've sort of you know maybe I was funny or something and maybe I, cause I was always around everybody and like never quite, you know, I think I always just love funny people so much. Cause they're so close to music in a way to me. Like, you know, there's, there's something about like when you're laughing hysterically, there's like something happens to the air in the room where you're no longer present. And I think as somebody who just, you know, whether it's a, the surrealist in me,

or just like somebody who enjoys, um, alternate states or something, you, you can access it so easily and freely when people are hysterically funny. Um, and so, you know, it's like a freebie. It's like, you know, it's, it's, it's like a freebie. It's like, you know, it's very much like music. Stepping away from my chat with Natasha Lyonne to send a shout out to Magic Spoon Cereal. I love Magic Spoon. End of commercial. We must say nothing else. No, uh it's just tastes great and it's

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him, and they're furious, and that's just Joe's life. Right now, Working Out listeners can try ShipStation free for 60 days when you use the offer code BERBIGS at ShipStation.com today. Click on the microphone at the top of the homepage, type in BERBIGSbiggs at ShipStation.com today. Click on the microphone at the top of the homepage. Type in Burbiggs. That's ShipStation.com. Then enter offer code Burbiggs. And now back to the show. I have this thing on the show

that's called the slow round. And it's just sort of like prompts, memories, things like that. Do you remember a smell from your childhood? I don't know. I would say, look, I mean, I have obviously a lot. For some reason, the first thing that popped in my mind

was tinfoil, but I have no idea why. I think that might be my own life. The smell of burning tinfoil, and I'm pretty sure that's my own time spent alone. What do you mean it's your own time spent alone? Listen, you might think you're having a midlife crisis, but you're not grown up enough to understand what I'm talking about. And then I was like, maybe that's connected to during Passover,

you have to wrap the chametz know, the, the chametz in the tinfoil. And I kind of went there. I don't know why that was my first thought. And then it was quickly followed by, you know, like, you know, we lived in Israel for two years when I was a kid from the ages of eight to 10. So I was like in New York, they moved to Israel for tax evasion. And then I moved back to New York when I'm 10 years old. So until eight, I'm in New York, eight to 10, I'm in Israel. And then 10 to 300, I'm back in New York. And so, but I definitely remember like, just that, like the, the balmy difference of that air of like landing off that that like LL flight and being like, where the fuck am I? Like, I am not in New York anymore. Cause it was like, sort of like this

desert breeze that was totally like unfamiliar to my DNA of like palm trees and like flat roads and just like emptiness. Um, and so I have a lot of memories of that. Are you saying that was in Israel? Yeah. And like, so I can really remember sort of like, I think that's the most sort of like specific set of memories I have in a weird way of just almost like, what was that time?

I'm sure a lot of kids who kind of like lived in a different country for a couple of years when they're like, you know it's it's all so foreign and it was just like oh these are like greek aqueducts and the ocean and like you know I mean like I remember prior to that like my parents had like split up for a summer and I was like living in some weird like sofa one bit you know fucking studio apartment with my mom in the city like you know it was so different than my life and so i think i've and i have a lot of memories of um you know like my parents always had like rottweilers and german shepherds and i can really remember like the dogs around and stuff and yeah so many of them i mean i wouldn't even know uh where to begin. But I also really have a lot of like very like city kid,

Times Square, like audition memories. You know what I mean? That are super weird. It's almost like taxi driver memories of an old New York that's no longer there. And like going into weird office buildings and like go sees you know i was also like a kid model you'd like go to these weird rooms and stuff oh my gosh yeah there's a whole bunch i mean i'm sure everybody you know must have countless ones um when you were i think

when i i think the first time i saw you in something was in woody allen's movie everyone says i love you i think that's when i first saw you i see was in Woody Allen's movie Everyone Says I Love You I think that's when I first saw you I see we do about an hour on Woody Allen I know I know I know I think that that would be good for both of us I mean uh listen that movie was I like you know it was unbelievable I mean I was so I mean talk about also like scared. It really is, you know, I guess it doesn't seem likely that I'll be going back and working with him anytime soon. But it was like, it was so, you know, I was so young. I was like 15, 16 and playing his daughter

and Goldie Hawn's daughter. And like everybody and their mother was in that movie. Yeah, yeah. I was in that movie. Yeah, yeah. I actually love that movie. Yeah, I'll never forget, though, my mom leaning over to me at the end of the movie, at the end of the premiere, she leaned over and she said,

not his best, huh? Oh, my God. That's honestly the only review I remember. Every time the movie comes up, I'm instantly ashamed because I can just remember my mother saying, not his best. So I'm like, I guess it was, I remember the movie. Every time the movie comes up, I'm instantly ashamed because I can just remember my mother saying not his best. So I'm like, I guess it was, I ruined the movie. Like that was, I think. What's the best piece of advice that anyone's ever given you that, that sort of worked?

You know, Dan Pasternak was like a, you know, so he once told me something like I'd taken like some general with him, like right in my sort of like round two post drugs coming back and he was like, this is great. Sounds like you've really developed the talent to back up the talent. And that's what it's about, you know?

Oh, interesting. Wow. The talent to back up the talent. Yeah. And I really, you know, I still think about that. That's like a, a big one for me. Cause it's kind of like, it's one thing to, you know, have goods. It's another thing to actually have the, uh, you know, ability to have the goods and, um, you know, meaning you really got to have the talent. That is really brilliant. Like, I'm just trying to unpack that. Like, like there's a lot of people who are talented and then it's almost like you're the guardian of the talent in a certain way. And,

and being a guardian of the talent is a challenging thing to do. in a certain way. And, and being a guardian of the talent is a challenging thing to do. Yeah. I mean, because there's, you know, head trips abound.

I mean, and that goes for every single person on the planet, you know, it's like, uh, the Elaine stretch or whatever, like everybody has a bag of rocks, you know,

like that is not, what's that? I don't know that. Talent specific. It's in the documentary about her. It's like her husband says to her at some point, like, Elaine, everybody has a bag of rocks. And, you know, it's kind of like, do those rocks bury you?

Or do you figure out how to kind of like- Oh, wow. Carry your load. Wow. And that's not just obviously in the arts, that's a full blown, you know, in this life thing for absolutely everyone. And, you know, obviously, you know, we're talking about like talent, like it's special to, to, to,

you know, something, but it's obviously it's, I mean, specific to everything. I mean, you gotta have like the talent to back up special to to to you know something but it's obviously it's i mean specific to everything i mean you got to have like the talent to back up the talent to like you know persevere through another fucking 24-hour shift at the hospital and you're a nurse and people are dying do you have the talent to back up the talent yeah you know like yeah you know if you have this gift of like being able to like live a life in service of others how are you taking care of that gift um so meaning like you know I don't think that it's specific um to you know writing and acting or some shit I think that it's much bigger than that as an idea um you know like do you have the talent to back up the talent of like you're a good loving parent but like you know

you're putting the fucking whatever um air mask on yourself first you know what i mean like it's based that whole basic idea um i i feel like you like almost as much as anyone i could think of in the arts or entertainment i feel like you have probably more wisdom and, and just like fortitude to like bounce back from stuff like you, like, I mean, I don't know what stuff you talk about publicly or not talk about, but like you had, you know, drugs and recovery issues and all these things that were really serious and, like, could have killed you. And obviously there's, like, themes of that in Russian Doll.

But, like, not only did you bounce back, but you became, like, significantly stronger. You became, like, a better actor and a creator and a director. I mean, like, it's's actually it's pretty extraordinary thanks mike like it's just i don't know i mean like i like if like do you do you ever find yourself giving advice to people who uh are struggling with what you struggled with like 10 years ago? Yeah. And I mean, like not only, I mean, it's, it's a funny thing advice. Cause I don't think I know, I don't know that I necessarily believe in advice so much as like, you know,

the power that exists between two people helping each other out. Like, I think it's a little bit more it's a dialogue. Like, in other words, whatever. This conversation, otherwise I would be playing Zelda sort of like, you know, in my own head, thinking about like, is there a coup? Is there not a coup? What the fuck is wrong with Jon Voight? He was so great in Midnight Cowboy. How the fuck did this guy get so crazy?

Poor Angelina Jolie. She must be so ashamed. Oh my God, are they fuck did this guy get so crazy? Poor Angelina Jolie, she must be so ashamed. Oh my God, are they great? What's Pompeo doing? And like playing Zelda, just like living in my own head, being like, and I think I'm going to do it. And I guess we'll go back and we'll make that season. Should we even be making it? Is that a risk?

What are we doing here? You know what I mean? Like I'd be having my own looping thoughts. You're stressing me out right now and it's your life. But you know what I mean? Like it's, you know, and what does it all mean? That's all I think. And so maybe, so I guess I'm really not having children. I guess I really made that decision because that ship is sailing kid. Like, you know, well, and guess who didn't know sit-ups today? Um, like, you know, so I would be like on

some, so guess who did no sit-ups today? I'm going to make it into a screen print. Yeah, like fucking, you know. So it's not really until like that sort of, you know, I mean, definitely one of the great lessons I learned is like, don't buy the lie of the mind. Like that was another big one. I mean, I think that might even be like a Sam Shepard play or something buy the lie of the mind. Like that was another big one. I mean, I think that might even be a Sam Shepard play or something, the lie of the mind.

The lie of the mind. Yeah. And like, don't buy the lie of the mind. Like who I think I am in what I think is my innermost self, like is actually just like somebody enjoying a state of isolation that is not necessarily a true reflection of my real nature. It's quite possible that it's a truer version of me when I'm sort of like interfacing with you, kind of like, you know, kicking the ball around being like, oh, maybe that's the thing I actually believe in, you know? That's the thing that I, that's the thing I've been doing lately. Cause I've had struggled with some mental health issues in the pandemic as many have and

I've been doing the cognitive therapy where I think it's this it's this book from this book called love what is and it's and and and and basically she asks you to if you're having a extreme feeling to ask yourself is it true and the second question is is it definitely true and then it's like the third thing is i think like what if the reverse was true and then like in the fourth i think is just like what if it weren't like what how would you feel if it weren't true you know and it's that's similar to the lie of the mind thing that you're talking about which is like yeah your your brain the same thing that makes you create russian doll uh is a thing that can really get carried away yeah and take you to places that just aren't true just

simply are not true yeah it's a wild, wild thing, you know? So it really, I mean, listen, that's what that whole show is about ultimately, right? It's like, you know, it's a character who moves from being disconnected to being connected. Like that is the journey of season one of Rush and All. You know, in many ways, like the journey of, you know, spoiler alert, of season two is like,

and then what? You know what I mean? Like what comes, you know, spoiler alert of season two is like, and then what, you know what I mean? Like what, what comes, you know, after you've made the decision to live and, you know, you're still the same person, you know, then where are you? And, um, you know, so, and why are you, you know, like, you know, why are we like, um, you know, like we have this like a topographical map of, you know, like an epigenetic footprint on all of us, you know, that is sort of like the weight of, you know, grief and joy and hope and all these things that we all carry. And like, you know, so there's, it's just, I just to say that those are all, you know,

like deeply universal experiences that I think I'm really curious about. Like my, you know, it's sometimes I have to like, you know, remember that I'm like, oh, right. Like this is, you're just fucking this person and that's just your problem, kid. Like, because like my diary entries, like I never knew how to keep a journal because I would write them as sort of like, like little like philosophy zines. And it would sort of be like, like little like philosophy zines. And it would sort of be like, yeah, you know, man entered school today. Like, I really enjoyed this idea of

like, you know, existential thought life around like, what is like, what is meaning? I mean, like the big, you know, like the book that I brought into um season one was like victor frankel man's search for meaning like that is yeah my big question and that's really you know what he says is like the secret to sort of survival is like you know to find something that you want to you know do here and uh yeah and anyway it's just it's often really hard like i personally have a mind that tells me i want to do it all alone you know what i mean like in the dark yeah and it's often really hard. Like I personally have a mind that tells me I want to do it all alone. You know what I mean? Like in the dark and it's not until, I mean,

that's like been the, you know, like, I mean my real life partners now are like, you know, Maya with this company and Amy with this show and Fred in my life. And it's like, I think it's no coincidence that like,

you know, someone as dark as me needs people that shining lights of like that level of fucking heavy hitter all time people to really, you know, feel activated into like, no, like, you know, the meaning of life is actually joy. Like, you know, because I very happily would like hang out with like, you know, Johnny Thunders and Nietzsche instead. Sure. Well, you said this thing when we went out to dinner that night after the broadway show and i go like what i was talking to you and fred about do you think you might have kids you're like no and you get married like we we really like asked a lot of the questions you know we went deep on the questions and it was one of those nights like we just were asking all the questions and and i go what do you think

what do you think keeps you together and you just said like fred won't like let me leave and it's like he like he like you'll be like you'll be like, now this isn't working. I'm leaving, you know. And he'll just be like, no, no, it's okay. You can go and then you can come back and then, well, that'll be that. You know, like, he's so positive and matter of fact that it actually sort of defeated your defenses. Yeah, like, he really, that motherfucker really loves me. I got to tell you. And I mean, I would say in general, like I really have friends that just like won't let me die. You know what I mean?

Yeah. And. Which is so much what the show is. Which is so much what the show is about. Yeah. I mean, it's exactly what the show is about ultimately. Because I mean, obviously I'm somebody, I mean, the friends become so key and so primary when you have no family. Right. I mean the friends become so key and so primary when you have no family right so it's like I really am this kind of uh you know um like many people you know like a sort of orphan character I just don't have that so those relationships really become like you know my whole deal and

and um but yeah Fred's very I mean like yeah we can't get married because he has too many ex-wives. So, you know. Oh, my God. Wait, that's why? There's too many of them. You know what I mean? And it's like, you know, I feel like that's the thing he's really done to death. I mean, the thing he's never done is like a real relationship. So I think this is all very exciting for him. Oh, my God.

But, yeah, I mean, he just won't let me leave. Like, I've never, I mean, he's just like so sure. Is he married more, he's married for real more than once? He's married to Liz Moss. Yeah, and he's been married to somebody else. There's like a punk rocker he was married to also. Oh, okay. He's been married twice.

I think so. His third wife, right. Okay, got it. I think he's like scared he'll jinx it. And, you know, but like I've heard it said that basically like relationships are like, you know, two people and, you know, I'm holding two fingers up and sort of like, you know, one person pulls back a little bit and then the other finger has to come closer to that finger and say like, no, don't go.

And then the other finger pulls back and the other person has to go and say, no, like, no, don't go. And then the other finger pulls back and the other person has to go and say, no, no, no, don't go. Oh my gosh. And then you know that the relationship is over when like one person, one finger pulls away and then the other finger doesn't go closer. It actually pulls in the opposite direction too. And both people are kind of like, all right, peace out, fuck you too.

And I think with Fred, every time i sort of like pull away he just kind of comes closer i pull away further he just kind of comes again you know he won't leave he won't leave like i'm like i'm trying to get some space here and but he also um it is really like i i've never i don't think i've ever uh felt you know i mean i just love him so much much as like a person and like respect him so much that it's like it's hard for me to even like, you know, just like think about like losing that kind of a giant, you know, to have like a shared space with. Like even when I, you know, I can't stand him. It's like I always fucking have so much respect for him, you know. and have so much respect for him, you know?

Stepping away from my conversation with Natasha Lyonne to send a shout out to our sponsor, Patreon. I have been admiring this company for a while. Like, I'm a huge believer, if you listen to the show, you know, I'm not a huge fan of studios and networks and notes from executives and all that stuff. I really believe in creative independence. And so what Patreon is, is it's a creator-founded membership platform where you, if you're an artist of any kind, can build a reliable income stream to fuel your creative independence. It's like no advertisers or algorithms

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And now back to the show. So the material that I was going to run by you that I'm working on for my show is all about death because your show is... Is it a spoiler to say it's all about death? Is it a spoiler? Russian Doll has been out for like 19 years. I know, I know. It's been out, it's been out. So here's, I got some things.

And also like, these are like, you know, we can run with these. We can have it bounce into another topic. We can free associate. We can sort of do anything. Like, it's just like, this is just a jumping off point. But I wrote this, this week, I had a surge of energy. So I free wrote on a line that I'd written like literally like three, four years ago, which is I grew up next to a cemetery. My friend Leslie and I would play in the cemetery like it was a park. And it really hammered home the idea

that death is around us at all times and that gravestones make really great soccer goals. Like anything past the crying angels is out of bounds. And if it hits Donald Wilson, it is not a goal. It has to go between Donald Wilson and Whitney Bonaduce. it has to go between donald wilson and whitney bonaduce and uh so that's the first one and um and then uh this is mike mike tell me some things first of all i just want to say i got a little emotional i want to say thank you for being so nice to me it's really really sweet and you're just a stellar human being, and thank you. So I just want to say that. Now what I want is for you to explain to me

what's happening. So tell me what you want me... So on the show... Yes, tell me. You want me to tell you about the soccer goals or something? No, no, basically it's like we talk out... I'm working on these bits

and it's sort of like it's really funny um tell me about the soccer goals um it is it's it's sort of like it's sort of like it's sort of like honest feedback about like which i which by the way you're great at being just candid and honest and sort of like yeah you you could literally be like yeah it doesn't that doesn't grab me but maybe this other thing might grab me like and and like like for example like i just said the soccer goals thing it didn't seem to sort of get you and so i was looking around going huh maybe i'll mention this thing which is about a different topic you, but within the same universe of death. Does that make sense?

That's if you're curious, that's not the thought that I was having. OK, the thought I was having was I was remembering that other show with was a sleepwalk with me. And I was like, oh, right. I was like, Mike's about to pull out some Boghossian shit and so that's actually oh like a longer story yeah yeah and so I was like oh that's what Eric Boghossian is so great at and what I was so struck by when I saw your first show

sure at that smaller theater that time in the village so I was like oh he's gonna he's gonna hit it up all right so I'm ready I'm all ears I'll tell you a story actually I wasn't planning to tell you this, but since you're sort of asking me to tell you something a little potentially more substantive,

I'll tell you this story, and I'll just give this person a fake name. Dolly Parton. Dolly Parton. His name was, let's say his name was Dolly Parton. His name was Anthony. Let's say his name was Dally Parton. His name was Anthony. His name was Anthony. It was like he was a close friend of the family.

And he was just like one of these people who they would come over for Christmas, holidays. And he was just like a life of the party kind of guy. Like he would always give us like these gifts, like the kind of person like at Christmas who would like give you like a Swiss army knife. Like you shouldn't give a kid a Swiss army knife. But he'd like give us like these awesome, extravagant sort of like gifts.

And he was sort of like rich. When you'd ring his doorbell, it would be like bing bong, bing bong. You know, like we had never, it should just go like, ding, ding. And then when I was in college, he passed away. And I came home from college and I went to the funeral. And afterwards, we went to like my godfather's house. And everyone started drinking.

We were in the back in like one of these like behind someone's house it was like a shed that they turned into like a game room kind of thing with like a pool table and everyone starts drinking and then like a few hours later they're like everyone's still drinking and then like a couple hours out, everyone is still drinking. And it's like people are drunk, like really drunk, like teenagers. And it was the first time in my whole life where it hit me that no one can handle death. It makes me very happy. I really like that you're thinking about all this i mean it's so weird death is so so weird yeah it's like so weird that you're supposed to just keep chugging along

and you know that you're gonna die and then you have all these things that you think you're supposed to do but you know you're gonna die the whole time it's so so weird uh you know fred uh uh for his birthday for for his maybe it was his 50th birthday we all pitched in and we bought him a a plot you know at the house oh my gosh really yeah oh my gosh and then we got in this uh this fight because i was like you know i'm out of here what are you talking about well where's my plot you obviously don't want to spend eternity with me i gotta oh my gosh all your friends together we bought you a plot where's my plot oh my god i'm such a bad person i forgot that he actually bought me a plot for my birthday. I got into the same fight with him again. Are your plots side by side?

I don't know. I think so. I think I just wanted the fight, not the plot itself. I don't know the answer. You'd have to ask Fred. I think so. so I'm gonna tell you a different story uh based on what you're saying also um which is like that what you're locking into about my stuff is the stories and so I'll tell you another sort of again it's sort of a half-baked story but it it is about death. I'll give you a wider sense of what I'm attempting to do with the next show.

And it's not dissimilar from Russian Doll. I'm attempting to create a show that's like 90 minutes of hard, hard laughs, but all about death and the darkest topics one could write about. And so I feel like it could be like a cathartic thing for people to laugh about it. But anyway, this is, but interspersed are the things like the story I just told you about being drunk at that funeral and like how no one can face death. And then I have this story, which is in eighth grade, I went to leadership camp. That's how nerdy I was as a kid.

And I met this girl at leadership camp and we became really close and we stayed in touch over the years. And she always said that there was something that she didn't want to talk about and her made made her like deeply sad and we would talk about like really really really candid stuff but but whenever she would think of this thing it was like it was almost like a heavy blanket and and one night i said to her i i you know, you can tell me like whatever it is. Like she was really upset. Like whatever it is, you can tell me.

And through tears, she said, my dad tried to commit suicide. And I said, that has nothing to do with you. And I hugged her and I felt terrible because she said it like her dad had killed someone. And in a way, it was like he had because he tried to kill her dad. That's very heavy. I've never thought of it that way. Has anybody ever put it that way? I don't know. I mean, I's very heavy. I've never thought of it that way. Has anybody ever put it that way? I don't know.

I mean, I wrote it down. I feel like that's the first time I've ever heard that. I was saying earlier, like, what's a memory you have on a loop? And that's like an exercise that I do with my writing. And like that's a story that I can never shake, is this idea of my friend when I was a kid saying like, her dad tried to commit suicide. Like nothing happened. I'm still here. Okay, great.

But that's a memory on a loop that i have but like that's so heavy that like she he tried to kill her dad i know because it really also i mean that's that's a big idea because it really speaks to just that experience of like also like how much her dad must have hated himself in that moment. And he totally lost sight of the fact that like, to her, he was a totally different person. It really speaks to the duality of the human experience, you know, that to himself, he was nothing. And to her, he was everything. I'll end on this one last these are two quick jokes that are

much less heavy just to end on a lighter note but one is a few years ago in 2012 an American man died in a cockroach eating competition does anyone an American man died in a cockroach-eating competition.

Does anyone want to guess which part of Florida he was from? It was Deerfield Beach, Florida, and the event was put on by a local reptile shop. And by the way, on some of these death certificates, I feel like they could just write other so that's one that's one

that's real true story true story see I found it on CNN I found it on CNN you know a lot of it is and you know a lot of it was this week

I was just sort of like free associating because it shows thematically about death so I was just googling like strange ways that people die. And so I found like a story of like someone who died laughing, literally, you know, in Britain in 1975,

a guy went into cardiac arrest watching a BBC sketch comedy show. And the best punchline I could come up with is, which really goes to show you, they're just making better comedies in Britain. But I don't think we'll make it in the show, but I think it's a fun throwaway. And then, yeah, so I, and then, you know, I found one, it's like a thousand people

in the US die each year from contact with a powered lawnmower, which is a eulogy that writes itself, like Frank loved mulch, and now Frank is mulch. I like that one. Yeah, we'll end on that. That was fun.

Now Frank is... Frank is mulch. Frank is mulch. That's a good name for the show. Frank is mulch. Frank is mulch Frank is mulch that's a good name for the show Frank is mulch Frank is mulch that is good I like that that's a solid title

Frank is mulch I mean you know certainly it's a t-shirt I mean if that line makes it into the show Frank is mulch is like a good sort of like you're in the club

if you know what this line means kind of thing yeah sort of like you're in the club if you know what this line means kind of thing. Yeah. Stepping away from my chat with Natasha Lyonne to send a shout out to Bicycle Coffee. I think it's really important that we support local businesses right now. I think that's a huge thing. I've been tweeting about it

and posting on Instagram about it. Bicycle Coffee reached out because they're a company that is in Oakland. It's a family business that started in 2009. They have amazing coffee. And since the pandemic, they started shipping. So now they do fast and free shipping on all orders. BicycleCoffeeCo.com. They have light roast, medium roast, dark roast, espresso blend,

decaf. They have subscriptions. I have a coffee subscription for the first time in my life. I think you'll love it. Save 15% on your next order when you use discount code Burbix. And now back to the show. Okay, so the final thing is a non-profit. Is there a non-profit that you know of or you didn't donate to in the past

that you like, that you think they're doing good work and then I will donate to them this week? Love it. The two places I'm very hot for

are the Women's Prison Association because of, you know, Orange, you know, so they really, like, help female prisoners get back out into life. And it's like Piper Kerman is very involved with them. And then I also love the Lower East Side Girls Club because it's my home state. Yes, my sister Gina volunteered for them

for many years when she lived in Brooklyn. Such a special place. That's a great organization. Such a special place. I will be thrilled to donate to both of those. The only planetarium on the Lower East Side is in that

Lower East Side Girls Club. I did not know that. Yeah. Well, this has been great. This has been great. See? This is why I don't need therapy, honey. I got you.

Working it out because it's not done. Working it out because there's's not done. Working it out, because there's no hope. That was another episode of Working It Out. How about that, Natasha Lyonne? That is a completely brilliant and fascinating person. If you haven't seen Russian Doll, watch it. Look out for season two.

If you haven't seen the Sarah Cooper special, everything's fine. Watch it. Those are all on Netflix. Our producers of Working It Out are myself, along with Peter Salamone and Joseph Birbiglia, consulting producer Seth Barish, sound mix by Kate Balinski, assistant editor Mabel Lewis. Thanks to my consigliere, Mike Berkowitz, as well as Marissa Hurwitz. Special thanks to Jack Antonoff for his music. And by the way, congratulations for his multiple Grammy nominations.

That guy, when he is not writing the music for Working It Out, he is keeping busy with people like Taylor Swift. As always, a very special thanks to my wife, the poet J. Hope Stein. Our book, The New One, is at your local bookstore. Support your local bookstores. And always a special thanks to my daughter, Una, who created Radio Fort. We just announced more virtual Working It Out shows at the end of December, the day after Christmas. Get your tickets at burbigs.com.

Thanks most of all to you who have listened. Tell your friends. Tell your enemies on all of those enemy websites. We're working it out. See you next time, everybody.