Mike Birbiglia's Working It Out - 29. Frank Oz: Frank Being Frank

Episode Date: January 25, 2021

Yoda. Miss Piggy. The Muppets Take Manhattan. Dirty Rotten Scoundrels. These are just a few entries in the IMDB of Frank Oz. Mike welcomes the show business legend for a candid talk about Frank’s collaborations with Jim Henson and his approach to directing. They also discuss Frank’s new film In & Of Itself, an adaptation of Derek DelGaudio’s brilliant stage show. Also, Frank gives notes on Mike’s new material! It’s candid. It’s frank. It’s Frank. https://www.hfotusa.org/

Hey, friends, it's Mike. We're back with another episode of Working It Out. This is an all-timer. Quick note, we are doing four Valentine's virtual shows, all new material, completely different from the other shows. Tickets at burbiggs.com. You can watch from anywhere in the world. But today's guest is Frank Oz.

Okay. Frank is a legend in entertainment. He has directed over 13 feature films, including Dirty Rotten Scoundrels, Bowfinger, What About Bob, Muppets Take Manhattan. He's Yoda in the Star Wars films. Wait, that's the same person? He's Miss Piggy in the Muppets. What? He's Fozzie Bear. Wait a minute. He's Animal? He's Cookie Monster, among other characters, in Sesame Street.

His new film is called In and of Itself. I love this film. It's written and starring Derek DelGaudio. It is based on an off-Broadway show that ran in New York for about a year and a half. It's on Hulu right now. It made me laugh and cry and feel wonder and empathy. Frank Oz's bio could take up an entire hour,

but we're going to get to it. My favorite part about this episode is Frank's wisdom and candor about show business and creation and collaboration. In some ways, he's the Yoda of filmmaking. This is the great Frank Oz. Enjoy. So it was a few years ago, I was doing Thank God for Jokes at the Bleeker Street Theater, Frank, and you were in the second row, if I remember correctly. Right.

And I have this story about performing with the Muppets in Canada or alongside the Muppets. They were hosting the show. And I accidentally curse in front of the Muppets. And it's a big sort of faux pas. And so in order to tell a story properly, I do Fozzie Bear and I do Animal. And I'm doing them for you. And I knew that you were going to be there because because because you're friends with Seth Barish my director and and so and and but there was something about doing these voices for you which was very humbling uh and very intimidating and then you were so generous afterwards I said do you have any tips on doing uh animal and you and you gave me this very specific instruction you said the important

thing to know about animal is that he loves drums and he loves sex and he eats glass yes and and uh and then my impression got better after that yeah he's uh animals is a uh is pure id you know yeah there's no there's no controlling him he he um i said before he you know he when he leaves them up at theater he uh goes and walks in the railroad yards and nobody knows how long he's gone and nobody wants to ask why he went there and then so that got me thinking like does every character that you've uh done over the years have that level of specificity like does fozzie bear have the same level of specificity yeah fozzie has more as a matter of fact uh because animal is not a three-dimensional character like piggy's a really three-dimensional character and fozzie's, you know, two-and-a-half dimensional.

The fun with Animal is that he is soul surface, you know, that he just reacts to everything around him very viscerally. Yes. Fozzie has a, you know, he's, he was trying his best in the caves to make the other bears laugh and uh it wasn't it wasn't happening but there were a few bears you know some were heckling and and he finally said i'm gonna you know okay i'm gonna go out and try it in the real world and then yeah you know he uh he met kermit and the real thing about Fozzie is that he was built as a second banana for Kermit.

That's what Jim wanted. Yes. But that's not enough for a character. And so I made him really desperately insecure. Oh, that's interesting. And all he wants to do is be the funniest bear in the world. And he will never succeed. Yeah.

And he will never stop trying. And the key to Fozzie also is in the Muppet Theater, everybody has a key but Fozzie. Oh, that's a wonderful detail. A key to the building. Yeah, Fozzie loves the show business so much. He calls it the show business. He loves it so much that he gets there at 6 in the morning. He can't wait to get in.

But he had the key once, and there were some accidents, and Kermit had to take it away. So that kind of background I know. That's wonderful. No one else has to know, but to me, that helps me with the character. No, and I think that that comes through. I mean, I feel like that's one of the things that was both captivating for me when I was introduced to the Muppets when I was a kid

and that I can watch it with my daughter now and get just as much out of it is that I relate to these puppets. Yeah. I relate to them. I relate to these puppets. Yeah. I relate to them. I think the fact that there's, you know, I've always called them, the key with Muppets is the affectionate anarchy.

Yes. But also the other thing, which is what Jerry Nelson said, you know, they're disparate people and monsters and things and animals and they are a collection of characters that really don't fit in society yeah you know and yet they found this home for each other and as much as they quarrel and uh you know have moments of conflict with each other, there's still affection underneath, you know? And I think the fact that they're outcasts, I think really speaks to a lot of us, you know? I think that's what connects. If you were going to ask, if I were going to try to understand what connects all your

work because before i knew you personally we've known each other almost 10 years before i knew you personally i was a fan of the muppets and what about bob and dirty rotten scoundrels and all of these things the idea that you're Cookie Monster, you're Fozzie Bear, you're Yoda, you're all of these things. And I'm like, what is the, you know, you directed all these movies. It's like, what is the thing that, and even the recent film you directed

with Derek DelGaudio in and of itself, it's like, what is the thing that binds all of these things? And I think it relates to what you're saying right now about the Muppets, which is there's a love that runs underneath the comedy. In other words, you love the characters, and because you love the characters, we love the characters. One has to love one's character and believe in it, or else it's not going to

be very long lasting you know yeah yeah the other way i think about the thematic through line of your work is it's um it's truth it's truth through absurdity well that's a really nice way to put it i like that i mean when i do a drama like, it's still truth, but that's not absurdity. That's more a certain level of reality as a heist movie. But the rest of the comedies that I've done, I think that's true. Truth being the most important thing. Truth not to this world, but truth to the world in which the characters inhabit. the characters inhabit.

I feel like the types of movies, you know, like Death at a Funeral or like What About Bob or Dirty Rotten Scoundrels, I find that there's not enough of those types of comedies anymore. Like, it's just, it just doesn't seem like Hollywood has a home for those movies.

There aren't. There aren't because there's, you know, those movies cost 30, $40 million. And there are no comedies made for that amount of money anymore. Once the corporations took over, the bottom line was more important. Right.

And these comedies that I've done are really for broad audiences. You know, when the movies came out, usually it'd be 3,000, 4,000 theaters. Yeah. And those are the days when that was happening. But now with the corporate, they don't want to spend that much money unless they are sure that they can get their money back. And what about Bob? Everyone was scared that it was going to fail. Yeah. Yeah. And meanwhile, I mean, Bill Murray was always a big star and the script is hilarious. And Richard Dreyfuss was a star. Like,

seemingly, all the ingredients were there that it would be a hit, right? all the ingredients were there that it would be a hit right yeah and and well there was there were some problems it was a very difficult shoot um it was uh i mean it's no secret that billy and richard didn't like each other yeah uh and my perverse director enjoyed the fact that that would help the movie, of course. Sure. Yeah, yeah. I can imagine that. Because, you know, with Billy, of those who have seen What About Bob, Billy's role of Bob Wiley, he's just on the edge of comedy or an axe murderer.

You know? He could be one or the other. Yeah. But nevertheless, it was a difficult movie because there were conflicts there. Yes. And it was one of the toughest movies. It went over schedule, and we had to paint the trees green when it was in November, leaves green, et cetera.

So it was tough, and everybody kind of thought that it wouldn't work because there were so many problems on the set. And I felt pretty good about it, you know? One of the things that I want to learn is, why do we love Bob? I mean, Bob's a jerk at his core. At his core, isn't Bob sort of an evil character? He could be an axe murderer. Yeah.

I mean, Richard Dreyfuss' character has a right to be scared shitless about this guy. Of course he does. And wanting to be. He doesn't, you know, I mean, it is Billy's, you know, everybody comes from a different angle. Not everybody. Many people come from a different angle. People I've worked with. I mean, you come from a wonderful angle.

You know, Steve Martin comes from a severe, wonderful angle. And Billy comes from his own particular angle, you know? Yeah. And that angle is, you know, he has an endearing quality about him, but also that particular character, and I think this is why I believe people are responding to In and of Itself, which is not a comedy. Yeah. I believe that it's about struggle. I think they recognize that Bob Wiley is struggling and trying to be healthy, not unlike recognizing in the movie that you mentioned that Derek and I did that the character Derek is playing is struggling.

I think we all are struggling to some degree, and that's kind of a universal part of ourselves, in my opinion. That's interesting you should say that because it's— And that, by the way, all my characters struggle, every single one of them. That's exactly it though. It's so funny hearing you say that. Like I would have been stumped if you had asked me why do we like Bob despite the fact that he's needling the Richard Dreyfuss doctor character. And I would not guess that it would be struggle.

But you're right. Struggle is inherently relatable. And then, of course, Richard Dreyfuss' character is struggling simultaneously, and therein lies the conflict. Yeah, and I think that's a pretty universal thing that all of us to some degree are struggling. Even the most wealthy and supposedly on the surface happy person, I don't buy it. I think the struggle underneath that too. Yeah. So within and of itself, so I saw In and of Itself twice in the theater in New York, and I felt like I could have seen it three, four times because actually the first time I saw it was opening night and I thought, oh, I love this, but my wife, Jen, isn't here to see it, so I'm going to come back and see it with her.

And it was one of those things where I thought, well, I'll just see it. I'll see it with her, and it won't be as exciting this time, but I'll see it. And then I saw a second time, I go, oh, it's even better than the first time. Yeah, true. Derek is very responsible for that. And then when you were making a film of it, I thought, well, certainly I won't be able to enjoy it as a film. Because all of the surprise, which we were talking about before, is like what happens when you take the surprise away from something and in and of itself has so many surprises in it. I mean, it's filled with surprises.

I'd say there's probably 50 or 60. And when you take away the surprises, what do you have? And then I don't know how to describe this to the listener without giving away what happens, but what you do on film is more powerful than what I saw twice in the theater, which I did not think was possible. We didn't either. We didn't know, you know, we had the

footage and editing is interesting. I mean, if when I added a feature, you know, I've already edited the movie in my head before I even shot it. So I know, I know what the movie is in my mind. And when I get to editing, then I give the editor first crack at it so I don't influence him. And then I go back to what I believe is best and I'll learn from him and he'll learn from me. And with a documentary, which this is not, a documentary, you just shoot wads of footage and then afterwards you try and find a story which is why documentaries take so long to edit yeah with in and of itself we you know we had an off broadway show that was on for a year and a half and we didn't want just a lincoln center recording of it it wasn't a document uh and what what you know we did and der Derek had all uh it was his idea to get all the

cameras there and once we had all the footage it always happens this way which is that even though I had an idea how to go forward and Derek did and we tried many dark alleys and came about the other way at the end of the day the film told us what it wanted to be. Yeah. And that's just after hours and hours of watching it sort of 10 different ways. Watching every single frame of every single take always, yeah. Did you have an aha moment in the edit where you realized, oh, that's how we make this work as a piece of film?

Not really. It was an accumulation of just working and working and working. We had a lot of B-roll footage, which is a lot of backstage footage, and we were going to bop back and forth between onstage and backstage, and then we tried and tried, and it didn't work. It didn't call to us, didn't sing. And we then slowly basically put one foot in front of the other, and then we went back another foot,

and then we bent forward another foot and a half and went back a foot. And I think it appeared it wasn't a particular moment, but through all the work, all of a sudden you lift up your head and you say, oh, also that's what we're doing. Yeah, that's so funny. I had moments both in the editing of Sleepwalk With Me and Don't Think Twice where I would come in to work with my editor, Jeffrey Richman,

and I would just say, what are we going to do? Yeah. This is a debacle. What are we going to deliver to these people who have commissioned this film? Yeah. And then you know what he said, and it was a really great piece of advice.

He goes, we're not going to hand it in until it's done. Yeah. And then it worked out. Did you ever have that with any of your films where you just go, I don't know what we're, I just don't know how we're going to make this work. No, because I, you know, it's funny. When I say yes to something, to a movie,

the most important decision I have to make, or any director has to make, and you know this, Mike, is either say yes or no. Yeah. If you say no, you can go down to your laundry and get your beans at the store. If you say yes, you're committed for a year. Yeah. You know, so that's the most important decision. So when I say yes, and it's usually after I only read the script once, when I say yes, I only read the script once. When I say yes, I get it.

I don't know. I need a lot of people to help me complete it, but I get it. If I didn't get it, I couldn't direct it because there's a lot of questions, as you know, Mike, every single day at you. Yeah. I have to feel good that I get it to this extent and may not have all the answers. Yeah. But I know the ballpark very well i just need a lot of players to help me yeah so i don't really have that when i have a script although you know the script isn't necessarily the script i use i always work

with the writer and rewrite every script we've done. Yeah. Because it, you know, as you know, things that work on the page don't always work on the floor. Yeah. You know, I won't overshoot. I won't have a long, I think I'll maybe make my movie the first preview, I don't know, 15, 20 minutes longer. And it's not because I don't know what I'm doing. It's just that there's material there that I'm not quite sure if I should take out or keep in.

Oh, interesting. So I just, and what I do also is I always, when I do comedies, I always record the audience's reaction. Yeah. Audio record. And mainly because I'm tough on myself. I'm rigorous. And the editor would say, oh, that got a big laugh. And I'll say, no, no, it didn't.

It barely got a chuckle. Yeah. And I need that audio no, no, it didn't. It barely got a chuckle. Yeah. And I need that audio to convince them that it wasn't as good as they thought it was. Yeah. And so, but when I, you know, some movies are like an hour over the final cut. Mine are maybe 20 minutes, 15, because I want to try stuff.

Yeah. But the trouble is people who don't understand that, they think the movie is crap because it's 20 minutes too long. I know what I'm doing. I'm trying things and it's a time to try. It's funny. I did Bowfinger and my ex-wife saw it. And the first preview was 20 minutes too long, which I knew.

Yeah. And she said to me, you better get another job fast. Oh, my God, that's funny. Because it didn't work, because I knew it wouldn't work. But I had to try these things, you know? You better get another job fast. Because it was awful. But I knew, I knew it wasn't, I knew what I wanted, but you can't, you know, I'm not that smart and I don't know comedy. So you, I don't want, yeah,

I don't want to know comedy. So I, I, I have to make sure there are things that, like in What About Bob, there's a, there's, I thought there's things that'd be very funny. It wasn't. And there was one scene that I didn't think there'd be laughter at all. And I counted it once. It was 11 seconds of laughter. So I don't know what the hell I'm doing, you know? So when you show up on the set of Bowfinger and you've already made Dirty Rotten Scoundrels with Steve Martin. Yeah.

That's a faster process, right? Because you've just spent so many hours on the set with him already. It's not a faster process. It all depends on the production value, of course. And how many cameras and what the lighting package is and all that stuff. But as far as Steve and I go, I'm very blessed that Steve trusts me. And so before Dread Rotten Scoundrels, of course, I worked with Steve, first of all, on the Muppet movie. Oh, yes, of course. And then he was on the Muppet show.

Yes. And then I worked with him on Little Shop of Horrors. So the real joy was that he trusted me. We both trusted each other and we moved forward. That really saved the time. Yeah. And, of course, Steve, every morning in the trailer, I'd say, hey, good morning, and he'd have an idea, you know?

But it's not an idea for him. It's usually an idea to make somebody else look better, you know? Stepping away from my conversation with Frank Oz to send a shout-out to our friends at Monk Pack. I don't know about you, but in 2021, I'm going to try to eat less sugar because everything has sugar in it. And it's just a hard thing to cut back on. But I because of certain health issues that I have, I do have to eat less sugar. Monk Pack keto nut and seed bars contain less than one gram of sugar,

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Monk Pack, delicious, nutritious food you can count on. And now back to the show. can count on. And now back to the show. There's a thing that I hope to in my lifetime to achieve in anything that I do ever, which you achieve in the Muppet movie, which is when I watch, is it you and Jim in the car singing Moving Right Along? Yeah. So I watched that scene because you're Fozzie and he's, of course, Kermit. And I was showing that to my daughter last night and I'm laughing and I'm crying. Yeah.

It's so sweet. But really, remember, what really makes it happen, too, is Paul Williams' music. His songs are stunning. Yeah. But yeah, it's these two innocents believing that they're going to be successful in what they want to do. And they're innocents. That's interesting. So you think that's where the emotional thread lies

and why it's causing me to have the laughter and the crying at the same time. Yeah, in my opinion, that's the case. It's rare to be innocent these days. And that affects us because we were innocent at one time. it's rare to be innocent these days, you know? Yeah. And that affects us because we were innocent at one time. And with Jim, and everything came from Jim, you know that. Yeah.

Jim and me, we both had a quality of purity about our characters. And innocence is a very important part of that through many of the characters. And I think, I think that's what makes that scene work. So when you're, when you're shooting that scene, I mean, the gymnastics of that must be outrageous. You're in a car in front of a green screen. No, God, no. We were on the road. Oh, you're in the car. We took out the bottom seat of the,

of the front seats and just kept the back. And then we went really low. And really, that was comfortable compared to other places. Oh, the stuff we've done. That was comfortable. Did you see Muppet guys talking? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. And where can people find this, by the way?

Because I love this documentary you made about the making of a lot of the Muppets. Yeah, I think it's still kind of selling here and there. I mean, people enjoy it, so we kept it up. It's MuppetGuysTalking.com. Yeah, we'll link to that too. MuppetGuysTalking.com. But yeah, it's amazing

what you did. Yeah, that. And Jim would risk his life, and so we had no choice but to risk ours. Wait, so just to get back to moving right along the song. So you're saying that your car, you're in a car with Jim. Well, not the car.

We're on a trailer. Okay. So if we turn the wheels, it's not going to mean anything. Right. Because the trailer is, so yeah, we're on a car and a trailer, and then we have the lights and the camera rigged to the car. Are you mic'd and singing at the same time? No, I think we're, it's a prerecord, but we're mic'd in order to,

and we have earphones on in order to listen to the camera car people. This is absurd. I mean, in Muppet Guys Talking, you go into, if I remember correctly, you go into the details of the swamp musical sequence where I believe Jim was underwater. Yeah. I mean, can you describe that? Yeah, it was in the Muppet movie.

And this is so normal for us. We have been in the most bizarre situations, but this is very normal. And in order for Kermit, you understand something, and people don't understand this, which is fine, which is good, that whenever you see a character,

a Muppet character, you have to understand that underneath it, you have to hide a person who's five feet five to six feet two. And you're on the upper end of that, by the way. We have to hide our bodies. And so people don't understand that. And I think it's the very nature of how talented all us Muppet guys are, and Jim especially, that you never think about it. Yeah. You never think about it. But what in reality happened in that particular scene, which is in the Muppet guys talking, and it's diagram there, so it's easier to understand. But they built kind of an oil can a big old oil can for jim and he went into that oil can and they put a monitor in that oil

can and they put a a tv monitor and they put a microphone and they put ear set and then they lowered him into the water and they raised his hand and then they put a microphone and they put ear set and then they lowered him into the water. Unbelievable. And they raised his hand and then they put a permit on top of his hand. And he was there for a half a day there. And he could barely walk when he got out. So it was like, it was almost like he was in a submarine. He was in like an Iron Maiden underwater.

Yes. Without the spider. He was in like essentially an Iron Maiden underwater for half a day. But this was normal for, I mean, I remember Jim and I did a, years and years ago, Astroworld, I think it's called, in Houston. And we did a show with the first edition at that time, the Ken Rogers. And there was a ghost town as part of a theme park there.

We were doing it a bit and we both had to get into a barrel because we had to hide our bodies somehow. There was a character called the Southern Colonel and Jim did his left hand and his right and did the voice and I did the

right hand. He was in a barrel, but we had to hide. So we were in the barrel and he was six feet tall and I'm six feet too. And we just got in that barrel and we're incredibly tight like glue. And so we would be there in that barrel waiting. And what happens, and this happens so many times, so many times, is that we were waiting and we were waiting and nobody said anything. And all of a sudden we looked up and everybody had gone to lunch. Oh, my gosh, no. Because they didn't realize there were two human beings in there.

And it always happens. So what we had to do, we couldn't get out because we were so bunched together. So what we had to do is we had to count one, two, one, two, and we would move the barrel left, right, left, right

until it fell over. No. And then we both crawled out and were numb from our waist down. Oh, my God. But this always happens. I mean, even when I was doing Yoda, Kirsch in Empire Strikes Back, who was a wonderful director,

he, you know, I was underneath, and he'd be directing Yoda. I said, Kirsch, I'm down here. Ha, ha, ha, ha! When I look at your body of work, I said, Kirsch, I'm down here. When I look at your body of work, I go, well, Frank is a legend. He's a star. He's, you know, he's Miss Piggy. He's Yoda. He's all these things. But then fundamentally, you are behind the scenes, except for last year when I saw you in Rian Johnson's film, Knives Out. Yeah. And I couldn't believe it when I saw you in Ryan Johnson's film Knives Out.

Yeah. And I couldn't believe it when I saw you in that because you had given notes on Don't Think Twice and they were wonderful notes. And then I said to you, well, hey, Frank, I'd love for you to play a role in this movie. And you said, you know, I really appreciate it. I like the script a lot, but it's not what I do. And I

guess my question is, what does Rian Johnson got that I don't got? Do you want the truth? Yeah, I do. Can you handle the truth? I can handle the truth. Do you remember the part you offered me? Yeah. What was the part? The part that I wanted you to play was Chris Gethard's dad. The part that I wanted you to play was Chris Gathard's dad. How old is he? Oh, he must have been 65 or 70 years old. And he was dying, wasn't he? He was dying.

He was dying, okay. Yeah. There's no fucking way I'm going to be the only man dying. That's the reason I said no. Oh, my God. that's the reason i said no oh my god what did ryan johnson have to do to convince you to be on screen no well what you know ryan and i and rom the producer got very very friendly they're great people on the empire on star wars yeah of course we spent a lot of time together and um so ryan called me and uh he he uh he actually sent me the script and i many many people with years have sent me scripts and uh for my comments and and i'm pretty you

know i challenge people you do yes i know that firsthand yes because it's a serious endeavor for them i have to be respected yeah ryan's script for knives out he wanted my in my notes the first time i could never give any notes it was that perfect no kidding really yeah yeah i couldn't give any notes wow it was amazing he's a heck of a writer any case so he then called me later and said hey rom and i really would love to have in this part and i said are you out of your fucking mind i said i and he said, we really want you there. And so I went back and forth. I said, Brian, you don't want me to do this.

Anyway, so finally I said, okay, okay, I'll do it if you have way enough coverage to cut away when I fuck up, okay? Oh, wow. That's the only reason I'll do it. So he had enough coverage, and so what you see is the best of me. What's at the heart of this thing where you don't want to be in front of the camera? I don't mind being in front of the camera. I like being in front of the camera. In your movie, I just don't want to be an old man dying. Okay, sure.

No, I'm fine. I've done a lot of John Landis movies and everything, and I really did it in the beginning, not so much Knives Out, because as a director, all directors should be in front of camera to know how frightening it is. Oh, that's interesting. I like that. That's a good advice. And I think all directors should take at least a year or two of technique and scene study, which I did. And I did that years ago in my 20s because I knew later on I wanted to direct

actors. So I really have said yes to all those movies so I could help the actors in my movies because I would know how frightening it was to be on camera. I'm curious because so much of this show is about working on new material and process. It's like with Sleepwalk With Me and Don't Think Twice, you gave me those. Don't Think Twice, I told you about this, didn't I?

I've told you before. I am, and I was and still am astounded you did single camera. I'm astounded. Yeah. I don't know how you did it. Yeah. I really don't.

Just because you think you're surprised that we were able to get it all. No, I'm surprised that there was an organic feel to it and to the overlaps. I mean, when I shoot people, if I want to you know i don't like the idea of shooting one person he talks another person she talks yeah he talks she talks you know the discourse is more organic and human when we at times overlap yeah yeah and so

on purpose i get two cameras and i will shoot uh overs instance, in order to make them overlap in post. Yeah. But you did it in one camera and I frigging don't know how you did it. Yeah, I mean, we had second camera for a handful. We actually, you know, it's so funny. We couldn't afford it. We couldn't afford multiple camera shoots on that.

And I actually asked for it. I requested it on a bunch. And they gave it to us they gave it to us on a handful of days but not all the days well you guys did an amazing job I was stunned still am you thank you that you know it's um your notes were phenomenal on on that film and and and and sleepwalk with me but one's one of the things that's interesting about your notes is they're really tough, and they're really... You're not trying to shelter anyone's ego

when you're giving notes. And I wonder where that comes from. Is that from your training? Is that from who you've collaborated with in the past? It comes from doing big movies and having meetings with the studios. And the studios, instead of saying, Frank, that scene needs this, they'll say, Frank, no, we love the scene. Okay.

And you're doing a great job. But in my opinion, I wonder if you could look at it slightly a different. I'm thinking, just fucking tell me. Yes. That was every single meeting. And I'm thinking, just fucking tell me. Yes. That was every single meeting. And I'm tired of that. I'm an adult. Yeah.

And if I can't take it, I shouldn't be in the business. Just don't waste my time. Yeah, just let's work hard and do it. That's fascinating. And if other people can't handle that, then they really shouldn't be in the business because it's tough at times. And you want that back. Those are the 10s and 0s you want back from other people.

Absolutely. Why do I want anything? It's a disservice to me and it's a disservice to people I give my notes to, a disservice to me if people pussyfoot and lie. What's the biggest argument you've ever gotten in with a collaborator or producer where you were convinced that you were right and then you ended up being wrong? Oh, Jesus Christ, so many times. So many times. I've humiliated and embarrassed myself so many times. But there's one in Death at a Funeral. I always ask the writer to be on the set with me, always, every single movie,

because he knows I'm the boss, but the boss needs help. I want to get his thoughts. So I was doing a scene, and Dean was the writer, and I was doing a scene, and as I was doing it, Dean was kind of looking at me, and I said, cut. What is it, Dean? He said, well, that's not, the way you're doing it is Dean was kind of looking at me. And I said, cut. What is it, Dean? He said, well, that's not, the way you're doing it is not what we agreed upon. I said, Dean, I got to keep moving.

I'm sorry. You may be right, but I got to go. And so I said, okay, action. And then Dean again, I said, Frank, that's not what we talked about. I said, Dean, please. Okay. I got to do this. I know this is the right thing. Okay. Action. And Dean is again at me. I said, okay, cut, cut. And I took Dean and I went into an office, a set and I closed the door and he explained it to me. And I opened the door and I said, he's right. And we redid the scene that way oh that's so funny i mean you gotta you gotta swallow your pride in order to do the thing that's right this is the thing we do in the show called the slow round and sort of like memories and and things like do you do you have a memory that makes you cringe? You have a thing that makes you cringe?

You go, oh, gosh. So many. Actually, Alan Parker, who's a tremendous director, and in London there was a screening of a new film of his. And I only knew Alan to say hello to. But I was in the screening room and uh i had read that variety didn't give a good review yeah i can't believe i did this but nevertheless i did i went up to uh alan said hey alan nice to see you it's frank oz um i hear variety didn't give

you give you a very good review and then i I said something, and I went back, and I said, what the fuck did I just say? Oh, my gosh. And I went to Alan and said, Alan, I have no idea why I said that. Please forgive me. I'm so sorry. Oh, my gosh. And Alan was a cartoonist. I have a little cartoon from him where I tell him how bad the movie was.

Oh, my gosh. That's so funny. So I've done terrible things like that, you know? Terrible. Do you have a memory of the time you remember laughing the hardest? Yeah. Yeah. I tell you where the times when Jim Henson and Jerry Nelson and myself and Richard Hunt and Dave Goels, Steve Whitmire, the most fun we had was recording the music.

Oh, wow. That we would then play back on The Muppet Show two days later. Wow. Or any time we recorded the music. And that was when jim enjoyed it most we laughed so hard that he and he laughed so hard he would cry he was just it was the most fun we ever had and and the saddest part of it all is that we always had so much fun and jim was due for the recording session and he wasn't there and that was a shock to us where's jim this is this is his favorite thing yeah and that's when jim went in the hospital oh gosh and passed

yeah so so we knew something was wrong when he missed that that session you know but that was those times were absolutely the the we just laughed till we cried. And then sometimes on the set, we'd scoot around on Sesame Street for a Muppet show and we'd just laugh crazy. And you've always pointed out that one of the tricks of the Muppets was that it was for adults, but kids liked it too. Yeah, it wasn't a trick. It was just that we've never been children's performers. Never.

I've never been a children's performer. Jim started off as an experimental filmmaker. And we always did adult stuff. It's only when Sesame Street kicked in and Jim would flow the river. He didn't say, I'm not a children's performer if there was an opportunity that he felt was valuable and important and he liked he just went with it yeah and so that didn't mean though because we were doing a show for children in actual fact we were doing a show for families the intent was to do a show that the parents could look at also to be with the kids. So we didn't even think about the kids. Not even for a moment. All we did was make ourselves laugh.

And we're adults. And that's how it was in Sesame Street and the Muppet Show and anything else we did, we always just did it for ourselves. Because, you know, I will never understand this. What is the difference between a children's show and an adult show? Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, right. People came to say, well, that's a children's show.

I mean, except for the fact that children don't have the sophisticated levels of having lived a life, you can't say, well, there's bright colors. Well, I like bright colors too. Yeah, sure. Oh, there's a lot of action. Well, I like bright colors too. Yeah, sure. Oh, there's a lot of action. Well, I kind of like action too. I mean, it's so foolish that, you know, 40, 30, 40, 50-year-old men and women think,

okay, kids will love this. Well, how the hell do they know what they'll love? Yeah. When I was a kid, I didn't even know what I loved. You know? Yeah. So we never in any way, shape or form, performed in any way other than just to

make ourselves laugh what what's the best piece of advice you've ever received that actually worked well when i when jim asked me i was 19 he met when i was 17 in oakland california, I was 19. He met when I was 17 in Oakland, California. When I was 19, Jim asked me to come out for six months to New York and try it. I was taking journalism classes. Actually, I wanted to be a journalist. And my parents, you know, I've had kids. I had four kids. And when they were 19, I thought, my God, that's the age I went to New York by myself? My gosh, yeah.

Holy cow. But my parents who had gone through the war and escaped the Nazis, you know, they've gone through so much and they supported me going even though they know they were losing me, which is, I thought, very courageous of them. So I was supposed to go for six months and continue school. And I did for about a semester or two. But then I got to be full time because I was learning so much and I was doing a lot of shows. But before I left, the best advice given to me was that by a dear friend said, you know, in New York, talented people are a dime a dozen. What's important is to take all the opportunities you can. And that's what I did. And that helped me a lot. Was there ever a time in your life where you wanted to be perceived in a certain way that wasn't authentically you?

a certain way that wasn't authentically you? That I wanted to be perceived in a certain way that wasn't authentically me. It's interesting. That means that presupposes that I was authentic at that time. Sure, sure. And I don't think I was authentic for many, many years. Oh, that's interesting because I was going to say the opposite. I was going to assume because you're such a specifically authentic person, I was going to say I can't imagine a time where you were inauthentic. I was inauthentic for many, many years and through psychiatry and I got out of it.

And a woman who loved me here, Victoria, I got out of it. But it was a, I had a particular upbringing where my parents loved me, but they wanted me to be a good boy. Yeah. And so I had to hold myself down and I was, for years I had to hold whatever was authentic in me down. And so I, for years, and maybe people out

there feel the same way, some of them, for years I pleased people too much. Sure, sure. I was a good boy and this went into my 20s and 30s. And, you know, I would, and during those times, I finally got rid of it slowly over about 20 years of shrink. So after that, I became authentic. That's so interesting because, so you're saying it was like a hard fought battle. But meanwhile, when I think of what you did in your 20s, I mean, you started with the Muppets when you're a teenager. I mean, in some ways that was so authentic and it was so cavalier. Well, not really, not really, not really.

I did puppet shows for birthday parties and Christmas shows and parking lots and supermarket openings from 12 years old all to 18 in San Francisco Bay Area. Yeah. I never wanted to be a puppeteer ever. I did that for various reasons from to please my parents because It was in a way to express myself. That was safe because I was hidden. Sure and I

only later in the years that I realized that Because that if the something I did it was not good. I wouldn't be rejected to be the characters be rejected Yeah, and I wouldn't be hurt. It would be the characters would be rejected. Yeah. And I wouldn't be heard, and I couldn't take rejection, like many people. So when I was about 18, I said, I'm through with puppets. I have no interest in puppets. I just want to be a journalist, and I did. And what happened was it was a combination of being a good boy, still, trying to work that out, and going back to doing the very thing

that I decided to quit, which is puppets. So for a lot of Muppets time, first of all, it was joyous to be with Jim. But there was a part of me also who wanted to do more than Muppets. Who, you know, I wanted to direct. And I was too frightened to say it to myself. And over the years, it was Jim who always supported me

and he was the first one who asked me to direct. But when I started directing, then I felt better about being puppets because I wasn't the only, I wasn't only a puppeteer. I also did something else. That's interesting. It, you know, It was a complex time, but when you quit something

and then you join the very thing you quit and that becomes really successful, you start asking yourself, wait a second, I quit it before and I want to do something else, but I'm having so much fun doing this. It was complex. Well, it's funny because it's like,

when I look at your career, I think like think like oh it's all by this great design no when you zoom out as a fan you go like oh he started with the muppets and he started with jim and then he directed with jim and then he directed on his own and then he directed these uh these live action comedies and etc and and now you're directing in and of itself And it seems to have an absolute perfect logic to it. Meanwhile, it's in some ways a happy accident sort of how you discovered that. I never planned a single thing in my career. I never thought of a career.

I just thought of doing stuff that excited me. I got lucky. Again,im gave me all the opportunities and after dark crystal and then have a muppet guys talking you know i never struggled to get a job ever yeah i just when i was with jim i did i did the gig and i delivered that's for sure but I did the gig I didn't get the gig and so it was after Muppets guys Muppets Take Manhattan again I didn't ask for Little Shop David Geffen asked me to do Little Shop yeah and then I did Little Shop and I didn't fuck up and then I was asked to do Dirt Rotten Scoundrels wow and I didn't fuck up so I was asked to do this movie and I didn't I never went for any movie.

I just was asked every time. But it's interesting because it's like you're saying this thing about how you give and receive candid notes because you're sick of studios going, well, maybe if you could do blah, blah, blah. Was there an inflection point where that hit you? I'm not going to do that anymore i don't have i don't have the time to waste doing that yeah um actually i kind of got in trouble one and i didn't care um chris chris rock was doing a movie and asked me to direct it and i went to uh i'll leave the studio out of it the name but i went there and studio meetings are, there's a lot of dynamic going on there. Yeah.

Because many of them will give suggestions that are straight from Screenwriting 101. Sure. And they truly don't get the visceral part and the intent of what you're doing. And so this particular time, and Chris is wonderful, but I couldn't take it anymore. What was happening was that a lot of suggestions that were just bogus. I mean, every single movie I've done, I've had meetings on and the meetings always said, we got to raise the stakes. Yeah. You know? Yeah. And I got so tired of that. But also this time, I realized more than any other time, it wasn't necessary for me or Chris to be there. Yeah.

Because they were playing to the boss. Yeah. They were only trying to make suggestions so they could say to the to other people oh yeah i i gave frank oz and chris some suggestions and uh and i'm you know and the boss you know he he he agreed with me yeah so there's a dynamic there that that is very much political and having less to do with the movie and also also, they wanted a movie that Chris didn't, Chris wrote a terrific movie, and it was a movie that was based on a French movie. And the way he wrote it, it was wonderful. And what they wanted was a Chris Rock comedy.

Yes. And I said, I'm not going to deliver that. I'm sorry. What Chris wrote was beautiful. And I just quit. I just wasn not going to deliver that. I'm sorry. What Chris wrote was beautiful. And I just quit. I just wasn't going to do that. So it was, that's kind of an inflection point, I suppose. Stepping away from my conversation with Frankz to send a shout out to our friends

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There's new flavors. Peanut butter and cinnamon. You should go to magicspoon.com slash burbigs and grab a variety pack today. Use promo code burbigs at checkout and save $5 off your order. That's magicspoon.com slash burbigs. And we thank them for sponsoring the podcast. And now back to the show. podcast. And now back to the show. This is like a bit that I'm working on for the new show. As you know, because you've come to some of the Cherry Lane working it out shows, that Seth and I are developing this new show, which is currently, the working title is The YMCA Pool. And it's all about

life and mortality and hitting middle age and thinking about- Why are you called The YMCA pool. And it's all about life and mortality and hitting middle age and thinking about- Why are you called the YMCA pool? Because when I was a kid, I learned how to swim at the YMCA pool and I hated it. I mean, I always just thought, I can't wait to never return to the YMCA pool. Was it the swimming or the YMCA?

The swimming, but it was also, that's where I went to nursery school. But it was everything about it. It was like the half-blown-up basketballs and the vending machine with a coffee maker that also makes soup, you know, and the chlorine smell.

I was like, I don't want anything to do with this place, you know, and the chlorine smell. I was like, I don't want anything to do with this place. You know what I mean? And so here I am in middle age and I go to the doctor and he says, like, I think, you know, you should go to the YMCA pool. I think swimming is really the safest activity you can do. And so one of the stories, and I'll, I'll, I'll tell you this story, uh, from it is I go to the doctor and, uh, he said, blow into this tube. It gives the pulmonary test. And, uh, you know, you probably know it. It's a, there's a ball in it and it simulates blowing out a candle. I call it the birthday cake test. Cause tells you how many birthday cakes you have left. And so he goes, blow into it.

And I go, oh, you know, and he looks over at the monitor. And then he looks over at me because he's looking up at this big machine. And he goes, okay, I guess just go ahead and do it. And I go, no, I just did it. And he goes, when? I go, didn't you see that go, no, I just did it. And he goes, when? I go, didn't you see that? I go, I just did it just now. You didn't hear that?

He goes, now I, he's looking at the screen. He goes, it's just not registering on here. I guess just do it again. So I try harder. I go, and he's looking at the screen and he goes, well, this isn't good. I'm not seeing anything on here. And then he goes, this harkens back to filmmaking.

He goes, maybe try like this. And then he sort of acts it out. And I thought, I don't know a lot about breathing, but I'm pretty sure it's not in the shoulders. And he says, the doctor says, I don't know what to tell you, Mike. If I were going by this monitor, I'd say you were having a heart attack right now. I said, doctor, if I thought I were having a heart attack, I would come here and ask you. So am I having a heart attack? He said, I don't think so.

I said, I'm going to need a more concrete answer than that. He says, I'm going to send you across town to see a cardiologist for a second opinion. Now, I've never enjoyed the term second opinion. I was under the impression that first analysis was fact-based. I didn't know we're just taking swings in the dark. If I knew it was opinion time, I'd point out that I don't enjoy sitting on paper. It makes me feel like a chicken. And I feel like you could digitize some of those forms in the waiting room. I feel like I've been here quite a bit. I should be in the system by now. That's my second opinion. Every time I walk into a doctor's office, I feel like the front desk

people are stoned. They're like, wait, who are you? I'm like, I'm Mike. I was here last week. They're like, right, Mike. Mike, will you blow into this tube? So he goes, I'm going to send you across town to see a cardiologist. So I get on the bus, not sure if I'm alive or not. The bus itself is sort of like a slow ambulance, just picking up patients along the way. There's a $3 copay. And so I'm at the cardiologist's waiting room, and I'm thinking, if I'm not alive, this could be

a good place to haunt because everyone's sort of on edge already. I could sort of sneak up on him. But finally, I go into the cardiologist and he says, hey, Mike, could you just go ahead and blow into this tube? I go, no, no, no. I've done the birthday cake test and it said heart attack. I've done the birthday cake test and it said heart attack. And he goes, uh, okay, well,

do you have a history of heart disease in your family? I said, actually, my dad had a heart attack when he was 56 and his dad had a heart attack when he was 56. So I'm just setting aside that whole year and I'm getting an Airbnb by the hospital and I'm keeping a flexible schedule. He says to me, based on your family history, I would recommend you consider doing cardio five days a week. I said, I don't think anyone does cardio five days a week.

He said, a lot of people do cardio five days a week. I said, I don't even think professional athletes do cardio five days a week. He said a lot of people do cardio five days a week. I said, I don't even think professional athletes do cardio five days a week. He said professional athletes definitely do cardio five days a week. So we talk about this for about 45 minutes. We agree to disagree. At this point, I'm a little out of breath and sweaty. I'm even a little hungry. I'm always a little hungry. I've never understood the term loss of appetite. I mean, I've had the flu and been watching a dark documentary and thought, I could go for a little macaroni and cheese. So the cardiologist says, hey, do you like swimming? And I go, no, I hate swimming. He goes,

I think you're going to be doing some swimming. And he says, do you live near a YMCA? I say, yes, I live near a YMCA. He says, I think you're going to be spending some time at the YMCA. And that week, after 30 years, I returned to the YMCA. So that's one of the early stories that Seth and I are tinkering with for the show. That's great. I love it. I love it. It's great. Is there anything? It's funny because over the years, have you had any doctor's appointments that are particularly memorable? I tell you, I went to a dentist once in the village, recommended to me by somebody. there was this i went i went in and i waited with somebody else i was waiting alone actually and the receptionist said be be right with you

and then i hear shouting screaming them back and and then i hear you dropped, you dropped it. You dropped it. And I hear the woman say, oh, fuck you. I'm out of here. I'm not going to take this shit anymore. And then I see it's the dentist who was shouting at her. And he looks at me and he smiles and says, just a second. Oh, my God.

That's hilarious. I couldn't believe it. You dropped it you i don't give a shit i'm out of here this is hysterical that is a riot i'm out of here um so i guess the question is like uh my question would be like what do you what are you most connected with in that story and what are you least connected with oh good good question i'm most connected with uh how doctors dentists put a show on that they're always in control and everything's everything's wonderful oh that's nice and that's why it's funny underneath you know they're trying to hide all that stuff oh that's fantastic i think that's something i should explore because that's

that's that's such a that that is completely what it's about without me even realizing that that's what i was writing yeah yeah because yeah because i blow into the thing and the doctor goes go ahead and do it i go no no I'm doing it I'm doing the exact thing you're telling me to do are you clocking any of this? that's very funny how old were you then? gosh it must have been three years ago

that I went for that pulmonary test and it's over the years, I've just had so many between cancer and REM behavior disorder and my sleep disorders and the pulmonary stuff. And I had type two diabetes.

And it's like endless amounts of doctor visits. But you're right. I think that's a very funny point, which your story hearkens to too, which is the show. It's a show of some kind. Yeah. I mean, it's almost like, you know, it's equivalent, the comedy underneath when you go to church or library, you're not supposed to be loud or anything. It's always a particular way

you're supposed to act and the doctors have to act a certain way to make sure they seem professional. When underneath, you know, we know god knows what happens behind yeah and it's funny because as you age as i mean as i'm aging into middle age it's like the doctor's appointments get more involved you know in your 20s it's more like a sitcom you're just like do do do do do do bing and the doctor's like what's your secret? And you're like, I'm 23 and I don't drink paint. And in your 20s, it's like a NASCAR pit stop. They're like, go, go, go, go, go! Drink Gatorade! In your 40s, they're like, don't drink Gatorade.

It's like, as you get older, your annual checkup becomes your semi-annual checkup, and then it's your quarterly checkup, and then yourannual checkup, and then it's your quarterly checkup, and then your roommate is your doctor, and then you die. It's sadly, there's a lot of truth in that, sadly, yeah. I was going to ask you this, and we can cut this out if you want but i always thought it would be a funny thing is um if i if i pitched to you a joke could you respond with what fozzie bear would say of me pitching to a joke try it okay so so fozzie um i was on the subway uh recently and I saw this guy crying over a book. That's funny. He was crying over a book.

Oh, I'm sorry. He was crying over a book, and I leaned over, and I said, you don't know how to read either, huh? Oh. I thought it was funny before. Oh, thank you, Fozzie. And thank you, Frank. I love that.

Thank you for indulging me. The final thing we do on Working It Out is working it out for a cause. We basically contribute to a nonprofit that you think is doing a particularly good job right now. And we contribute and we link to it in the show notes. Yeah, I contribute. I've contributed various things. I've switched. But the past few years, I've contributed always to homes for our troops. Oh, that's great. Which is, you know, troops who've been who've lost leg or have problems where they cannot really live in a normal house and the house

needs to be adjusted so they can reach the cabinets and they can knock too many stairs. So I think that's great. So that's what I contribute to is Home for our Troops. That's wonderful. I'm going to contribute to them as well. I actually did an auction. I donated an auction item to my last virtual show. We did like a meet and greet with someone who donated a lot of money to Homes for Our Troops. And I think, and that was when I became aware of the organization. I thought, wow, what a tremendous organization this is. And on top of that, I'm very careful because I go to Charity Navigator and I see how much money is spent on the actual, what they actually say they'll do and how much money is spent on the actual, what they actually say they'll do and

how much money is spent on the staff and Homes for Our Troops is very, very well respected in that area. Well, Frank, I really appreciate it. And I will link to them in the show notes and thank you. I mean, my thanks, I could thank you for 10 hours and it wouldn't be enough. It's for being my friend, for being a mentor, and for all that you've contributed, all the laughs and tears you've contributed to all of our lives as fans of yours. Well, right back at you. All right. Thanks, Frank. Working it out, because it's not done.

Working it out, because there's no hope. That's going to do it for another episode of Working It Out with Frank Oz. Holy cow! Do yourself a favor. Go to Hulu and watch the film in and of itself with Derek DelGaudio. I love this film. You can follow Frank Oz at FrankOzJam on Twitter. Our producers of Working It Out are myself, along with Peter Salamone and Joseph Birbiglia,

consulting producer Seth Barish, sound mix by Kate Balinski, assistant editor Mabel Lewis, thanks to my consigliere Mike Berkowitz, as well as Marissa Hurwitz and Josh Upfall. Special thanks to Jack Antonoff for his music. As always, a very special thanks to my wife, Jay Hopestein. Our book, The New One, is in your local bookstore. Support your local bookstores, your local pizzas, your local grocery stores.

As always, a special thanks to my daughter, Una, who created a radio fort. Thanks most of all to you who have listened. Thank you for writing those nice user reviews on Apple Podcasts and elsewhere and tweeting and posting on Instagram. I can't tell you how much I appreciate it. Tell your friends. Tell your enemies. We are working it out. We really are.

That's what we're doing here. We're working out the next show. See you next time, everybody.