Mike Birbiglia's Working It Out - 35. Fred Armisen: The Secret Comedy Rules of Portlandia and SNL

Episode Date: March 22, 2021

Mike and Fred have a candid chat about the secret rules of Portlandia and the comedy writing lessons of SNL. Fred describes how they arrived at the title for “Portlandia” and Mike describes how he arrived at his brand new solo show title that he debuts in this episode. All that and Fred shares his Mike Birbiglia impression, his Ira Glass impression, and explains why a parody of This American Life doesn’t quite work on SNL. https://www.sweetrelief.org/

Hey everybody, it's Mike, and we are back with a new episode of Working It Out. It is my honor and privilege to be joined today by Fred Armisen, one of the great comedians and actors and writers living today. and actors and writers living today. Before we begin, I just want to mention the Worldwide Comedy Pizza Party happening this week, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday to Saturday. We added a 5 p.m. Eastern so that our U.K. friends might be able to watch that, I think around 10 o'clock their time, and in other parts of the world. And then we added a show where all the proceeds go

to Texas food banks on Sunday. That has guests Jimmy Kimmel and Chris Bianco, who is a world-famous pizza chef. On Wednesday, we have Pete Holmes as our special guest, and we are announcing new special guests very soon. Today on the show, we have Fred Armisen, who is one of the people who just makes me laugh harder than anybody. I mean, he's writer and star of Saturday Night Live and Portlandia.

He's the band leader for Late Night with Seth Meyers. He's lived 10 lives in show business. He started out playing drums with the Blue Man Group and playing in punk bands, and he's just sort of done it all. He's an incredible impressionist to boot. And we have a great chat and we work out one of my new stories. And I hope you enjoy my conversation with Fred Armisen.

Two SNL questions. One is, you could ask a billion SNL questions. One is... You could ask a billion SNL questions. I know. I have a lot of questions. I don't mind. What did you learn for a sketch that you were like, oh, this is really cool that we get to learn this from a professional?

Do you mean like a lesson in general from writing sketches? That too. Oh, well, how did you mean it? I meant it like a skill like learn to dance or learn to do the cha-cha or learn to do like a thing where you're like, oh, this is kind of cool. I'm like working with like a really high level like ballroom dancing instructor or something. For me, it was prosthetic makeup. Really?

Yeah. So all the stuff with glue and fake noses and chins or cheekbones and stuff, they were at this cutting edge of the technology of it all, with the latest glue that they're using. I loved seeing the very edge of what was being, because there are new inventions all the time, and like gluing that can come on and off really easily, seeing girls with wigs.

So it's something that you think is like, oh, there's just some specialists who do that, and it'll work itself out. But really, these people have to, it's really got to look good, and it's got to stay on for a long time. And, and so that was the part that I really loved getting to see. What was the thing about writing? Or what, like, what was the thing you learned that you're saying about writing a performance? Oh, that's a that was like, it's like more than just a comedy lesson, but like a life lesson. But it's editing and not being precious about your own work.

So when I first got there, I would write a piece and I would think, hey, you know, they got me for this show and I have a special brain, apparently. And then. That's a good attitude. You know what I mean? mean like you're just like well these things that are coming out i'm gonna put it on paper and then as as things get cut you you learn not to take it personally because yeah they get cut because the audience just isn't reacting so the lesson i learned is you cut all these things down or you cut a sketch out entirely or a page and then the next

week you come up with something else yeah so the precious thing of like this is my moment and this is my thing is nonsense it's don't worry about it there's another week and the thing that will resonate is something you didn't even consider so the the editing part, I learned a lot from Tina Fey and from Seth Meyers too. Seth was very, he really, you know, really broke things down. You don't need this, you don't need this. And it turns out we did not.

That's so fascinating because I think that that's very similar to This American Life and what I've learned from Ira Glass from working with him over the years is like their staff they, when they get rid of a paragraph or a story or a piece, they call

it killing it. And they think of killing something as a positive and not a negative. They're just like, yeah we killed that story. And it's almost like a badge of glory. Oh, that's great. Because it's almost like we badge of glory. Oh, that's great. Because it's almost like we killed that thing that was actually very good.

Yeah. That's how good the thing is that we're going to make. Yes. Yeah. Oh, it's such a great way to see it. Yeah. And I like that they use the term killing. That's really good because it is kind of like,

it's like a beast that shouldn't be. We do it when my director Seth and i are working on the solo shows like we we kill so much stuff that makes us laugh so hard and we're just we're just like yeah it just doesn't fit with the story we're telling yeah same same here we're like it would be a character with an accent and with a wig and like with a whole, you know, backstory. And, you know, I can't wait till this Saturday. I mean, this is, you know. It's so funny because one of the things that got cut that I love, I mean, it lives on the Internet. That's where I saw it, is you did an impression of Ira Glass from This American Life on Weekend Update.

Act two. Oh, boy. of Ira Glass from This American Life on Weekend Update. Act two. Oh, boy. Laid off. No guts. No glory.

No job. After a year of looking for work, Rita finally gets a job offer. But here's the catch. It's in Botswana. So, so, so, get this letter. From a country you've never been to. I mean, what was going through your mind? It's so funny because I, so Ira heard about that sketch and then he had you come on This American Life

on an episode they had called Doppelgangers. And the two of you did sort of a dueling Ira Glass is. Yeah, the Ira Glass that he saw was from dress rehearsal. It never went to air. And the story was just that like, you know, in its most blunt description, it's that he just wasn't famous enough for the audience to be like, hey, you're really... He thought it was funny that it was described that way, but that's the literal thing of the audience being like, we're not sure who this is. They're just maybe not necessarily NPR listeners.

Yeah, that's one of the strange things about SNL is the audience is so wide, you need most people to know what you're referencing. Oh, yeah. And I remember for my audition, because I've watched SNL my whole life. Yeah, same. Every new cast, I mean, it was always a part of my life.

So when I did my audition, I remember doing Vin Diesel. This is 2002. Not because I had a great Vin Diesel, but just because I was like, I should probably do someone who is a well-known person. My other impression was Sam Waterston from Law & Order. Do you remember what your Vin Diesel was? I did something, because I remember his voice. There's something in his, there's something in the, something in, I don't know, in the way his mouth is that creates that sound or something. So I don't know. I don't know.

I don't know what it is, but it's something in there. And then what was Sam Watterson like? The trial judge does his thing with his ass. It was like something with his S's. He just had kind of like, I guess, like a percussive. Why didn't you call 911? There's something in the, you know, I don't know. Oh, my gosh.

I just liked doing them. I find someone with your level of talent to be astonishing. Oh, jeez. I'm really intimidated by it. No, but Mike, it's like a cheat. It's not like someone said to me, we need a Sam Waterston. It's just like I was like, oh, I think I could do him. It's limited.

There's a limit to it. It's not like I could do. It really is. The people you saw me do could do them. It's limited. There's a limit to it. It's not like I could do, it really is, the people you saw me do on SNL, that's it. It's not like I've got 50 others that I can, you know. Yeah, but you do this thing,

and if people have seen you live or seen your special, know like, you do this thing where like, you'll do like any region. You'll do like Syracuse, as specific as like, Syracuse, New York or something.

But that's the same thing. I will, between me and you and this podcast, I don't mind it. Actually, I don't mind talking about it because it is like a parlor trick or something. But I do skip over accents I just can't do. And there are accents I can't do. There are like, I really brush through Massachusetts. Oh, really? Oh, man. I cannot tackle it. I really brush through Massachusetts because I can. Oh, really?

Oh, man. I cannot tackle it. That's one of my jokes in my new show I'm developing, which is I go one day my daughter Una, she's at this adorable age, and I go, Mom's going to put you to bed. And she said, She's not your mom. She's my mom. And I said, That's not your mom. She's my mom.

And I said, that's what my therapist keeps telling me. And then I go, because all toddlers have a Boston accent. They're like, I'm tired. And Boston toddlers are like, I'm wicked tired. By the way, that's the only accent I do is Boston. That's it. Oh, well, we'd make a good team, I guess then. I just lean on you for that. Stepping away from my conversation with Fred

Armisen to send a shout out to Helix Mattresses. Let me tell you something about Helix Mattresses. Sure, they win best overall mattress pick in GQ magazine or in Wired magazine. And sure, it'll be the best night's sleep of your life. But I'll tell you something. I'll tell you a personal anecdote about Helix mattress. So I have one. I love it. Our in-laws stayed over recently.

They stayed on it. And then they said the next morning that it was more comfortable than a mattress brand that is competitive with Helix mattress who shall not be named. And if that isn't the nails in the coffin on competing brands

I don't know what is! Right now Helix mattresses are offering up to $200 off all mattress orders and two free pillows for our Working It Out listeners at helixsleep.com slash

Burbigs. And now, back to the show. You came to the last two shows. You came to the new one and you actually, I realized you came to Thank God for Jokes also. And down at the Bleaker Street. And the new show is all about aging. And I'm actually, I've never said this until this podcast right now

because I changed the title yesterday from YMCA Pool to The Old Man and the Pool. And it's all about aging. Yeah. And it was just an interesting exercise in like, and the listeners might be interested in this, is like naming. And like, for me, YMCA pool, it was the name,

it was the title for a long time, like a couple of years, literally, working title. And then I reached a point where I read a book about the YMCA pool history, and I go, you know what? It's got too much baggage. It's got, like, me, it's like young, Christian, male, and it's

just got all of these... Yeah, and it's like, actually, this show isn't about that. And then I was like, well, it's about aging. And then I thought, old man in the pool, and I thought old man in the sea, etc. And I thought, well, that's sort of fun. That's great.

By the way, that's a good catch. Thanks. That baggage. You're like, oh, wait a minute. I don't want to carry the YMCA baggage with me. It just doesn't interest me. And then like, so like with you with Portlandia,

like I was thinking about Portlandia today. It's like, how did you arrive at that title? That's a real beautiful title. Oh, that's easy. That is the name of a statue there. Oh, wow. We had some other names for the show. Stumptown, I think we had a couple other ones.

Someone at the office who works at Broadway Video, one of the producers there, she's from Portland, and she just pitched it. She's like, what about Portlandia? Yeah, what about Portlandia, like the statue? And we're like, that's it. It's interesting how the title is so specific to a place that most people have not been

i've been to portland a lot and i love it there but most people haven't been and yet there's a universality in the specific of the type of character on the show that people go oh my god that's just like these people i know in brooklyn yeah or that's just like these people i know in philadelphia there's just like these people i know in day. Yeah. Or that's just like these people I know in Philadelphia. Or there's just like these people I know in Dayton, Ohio. Yeah. That was the idea. That was like everything that we saw in that kind of culture there is everything that I've experienced in so many cities.

And, you know, like in Silver Lake. Silver Lake's a perfect example. Yeah. Wicker Park in Chicago. Yeah. St. Paul, you know, or Minneapolis. Just like I'd seen it. I gravitate towards those places.

So that was immediately what it just became about. Even though it's Portland, it's just like every place that we knew, that Carrie knew from being on tour. Yeah. And also I think we, it was easier for us too because it's what we like so we were very much like those characters where you know

all that stuff was just our world Do you ever have a thing where like Portlandia in some ways is a quote unquote it's like an impression of Portland people in Portland in a way in the Ira Glass impression do you ever have it where people are of Portland, people in Portland in a way, in the Ira Glass impression, the impression of Ira.

Do you ever have it where people are hurt by the depiction? They feel like their feelings are hurt. Hmm. Feelings are hurt. Maybe. I don't, I think I'm not. I had it with Ira once where I did an impression of Ira casually in an interview.

And he goes, I don't really like that impression. No. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then I didn't do it again. I never did it again. Wow, that's so honest of him that he said that. Because I'm not a great impressionist. I'm just not a great impressionist.

I was just telling it as an anecdote and whatever. And then he was just like, that's not that good. And then meanwhile, you do it. And then you get invited on This American Life to do it for international stage. Two very different outcomes. I don't know. I don't know if there is a specific example of someone being like,

hey, that hurt my feelings. But I don't know. You know, I'm sort of bad at getting if someone says something kind of negative everyone's been really positive their reaction to Portlandia so I don't know

I'm sort of deaf to like if someone had a problem with an impression or something but I had a thing when Portlandia came out because I was at I want to say I was at the premiere or the second season premiere at Museum of Natural History, I want to say. That's correct, yeah.

Yeah, and I met Cary Brownstein for the first time and I was able to be really fanboy over and just be like, oh my, this show is, but it really was, I mean, that show is so astoundingly funny that it was, you know how like you think you hit your ceiling on laughter and then you see something else and you go, oh, that wasn't my ceiling on laughter. That was my experience of Portlandia.

I really appreciate it. You were very kind to us from the very start. I remember you would send me messages and then I remember we... I would knock on your door in the middle of the night. It was the best. And it was also me getting to know you as well. You know what I mean? Yes. There was that. But I remember we were up for a WGA award, and you were the presenter for this category, and Portlandia was up. And then we won, and your reaction was so genuine. I forgot about this. It was so genuinely happy.

Yeah, yeah. I'll never forget it. It was so nice. You were happy about it. I was an early tweeter forget it. It was so nice. You were like, you were happy about it. I was an early tweeter about it. Like I would tweet Storm about Portlandia and how extraordinary it was because it was one of these things

where like my brother Joe and I were talking about like what our experience of Portlandia was. And we were talking about how he remembers a specific conversation that we had about the alternative wedding sketch. Okay. You did a sketch about these people who want their wedding to be so different from other people's weddings.

And then it gets stranger from there and you zoom out and stranger than that. And it's like, does the, does the great trick that Portlandia at its best does. And, and Joe and I remember having this conversation after that episode aired and we just go, um, I wonder if they're worried that they can never top themselves again. That, I think that was from our experiences of like going to people's weddings or being invited to weddings that were supposed to be so, you know, different. Yes, yes. Very like, this is really going to be different.

And it's just so much work. Did you ever fear you weren't going to be able to top yourself? Did you ever have this like, no, there's no way we could do a funnier episode? Do you mean as a sketch or as a show? Episode. This is an episode. Oh, all the time. I mean, not a fear, just like this feeling of, wow, that was, I'm very happy with how this

turned out. I hope we can come up with something else. But we always seem to do it mostly because of, you know, there were a bunch of us and there was Jonathan and Carrie and we were able to find weird little things that we could get on the air. Did you ever have things where like steve martin's book born standing up is like my favorite book about the creation of comedy yeah and he talks about like how like he set rules for himself along the way yeah and like i'm not going to do jokes about this topic i'm not going to do current events i'm not going to do you know he'd say like i'm not going to uh confess to the audience if i think i'm bombing i'm not going to do current events. I'm not going to do... He'd say I'm not going to

confess to the audience if I think I'm bombing. I'm not going to let them know. That kind of thing. Did you have anything in Portlandia like that where there were secret Portlandia rules to creating the world? Definitely some secret Portlandia rules. I think one of them was not to be mean to anyone.

And it didn't come from a moral standpoint. It was just performance-wise. I think when we started getting mean or angry, it becomes a bummer. So we just tried to keep it optimistic,

keep it short. I think we tried not to do anything because it's such a long cycle before it went on the air. We also try not to do anything too specifically topical. Sure, sure. So it wasn't like SNL. We didn't have that luxury. So we had to keep things a little vague.

But the main thing was just trying not to be mean oh that's interesting yeah like when you say be mean like in other words like you love the characters you're playing you love those characters always not look at this stupid idiot none of that stuff you know it was all it was all very like this is someone i could be or this is someone i would like that is something that I feel like defines your comedy, which is like, I feel like you genuinely like people. I do. Yeah.

I would say I do. And I would even say like, being an impressionist, like that's a love of people too, because you're just observing people. If you're able to do someone's voice, you're actually in love with their voice. Yeah, yeah. Something in. Yeah, I hear you. It is something like that where it's a kind of a curiosity.

Like, what is that? What is that type of person? What is this thing that people do? What is this saying that's been coming up a lot? That kind of thing. I always bring up your name because you did an impression of me when we did a college gig together once. Do you remember in New Jersey, we did the College of New Jersey? Oh, yeah.

Ewing, New Jersey. And it was like 2013, I want to say. And you came up on stage and did an impression of me. And to this day, I always say that the best impression of me is either Fred Armisen or Bill Haidt or your castmate. But if someone wanted to do an impression of me is either Fred Armisen or Bill Hader, your castmate. But what do you, if someone wanted to do an impression of me, what are the defining characteristics about me that you go like, okay, use that, use that, use that? It would be a facial thing. So it's kind of harder to do on this. Okay.

But I always just think about you on stage. Yeah. And to me, you're about to do a slow list. So it's almost like presenting numbers. So to me, I'm not going to do the voice right now, but it's a very, so in your eyes, it's like, here's number one. Here's number two. Here's number one. Here's number two. Here's number three.

There's a patience to it, and there's a sort of, you know, I'm going to bring you in. I feel like that's something that my wife, Jen, might say to me one day, like, I'm sick of your slow lifts. Like that's bubbling underneath the surface. Yeah. A frustration with my slow lists. Stepping away from my conversation with Fred Armisen to send a shout out to Magic Spoon. I mean, Magic Spoon. I could talk about Magic Spoon all day. First of all, I love cereal. I love pizza. I love cereal. I love Magic Spoon cereal. It's like, it's kind of like eating sugar cereal, but there's zero grams of sugar and there's 13 to 14 grams of protein, only net four grams of carbs in each serving. It's keto friendly, gluten free, grain free, soy free, low carb and GMO free. You can build your own box. Right. So you get the different flavors.

You got cocoa, fruity, frosted peanut butter, cinnamon. For a limited time, they have cookies and cream and maple waffle. Just give this a shot, right? Go to magicspoon.com slash berbigs. Use promo code berbigs at checkout. And in Canada, by the way, same website, magicspoon.com. It'll redirect you to the Canadian version of it. magicspoon.com it'll redirect you to the canadian version of it magic spoon.com slash use code for biggs to save five dollars and now back to the show

we do this thing called the slow round where it's sort of based on like memories and and things that sort of have stuck with you. Was there ever a group that you wanted to be a part of that didn't want you to be a part of it? Oh, do you mean like, um, wow. Do you mean like when I was a kid? Yeah. I think that I always felt weird not being blonde. Oh, my gosh. So, like, if there were blonde kids, I was like, God, that must be great.

Oh, my gosh. Or freckles or something. That's hilarious. Makes no sense. Blonde kids. Makes no sense. I was like... You know what?

This is so random, but this isn't my own childhood memory, but someone else messaged me this week from my past. And I hadn't talked to him in probably 30 some years. And he goes, do you remember? It's already good. Because do you remember a bunch of us being on the Morgan's roof and you had to pee. And so you peed on like what ended up being like a pipe that was like an exhaust pipe from like a laundry room. And so you did that. And then they had the smell in their house

for like weeks to come in the laundry room. I swear to God. And I get this message and I go, Jeff, that's his real name. I should have made up a fake name, but his real name is Jeff. And I go, Jeff, I do not remember that, but I also can't say that

that didn't happen. I mean, it may have happened't say that that didn't happen. Yeah. I mean, it may have happened. Oh, I trust his memory. That's too specific for that to be made up. I know. It's funny that you don't remember it. But that's so specific. And then I go, what's funny is I go like, all I remember about that house was that I've never been inside that house.

Like it was a friend of ours. Yeah. And he goes, well, that's because the mom never let anyone inside the house because it would get dirty. Oh, man. And I was like, oh, okay. Well, that checks out. I buy that. Boy, that person created

childhood memories for other people of never being allowed into their house. She doesn't understand the impact of being that unfriendly. I don't even know if it's unfriendly. It's just like some people have that about their house. They're just like, no kids in the house the uh but that's i when i think of you that's one of the defining things about you

is you're you're extremely nice you're friendly kind uh that i remember that one time you drove me home from that new jersey college gig and And then I literally was like, you can drop me anywhere. You can drop me on the highway. You were going to Manhattan. I was going to Brooklyn. You drove me to my doorstep. Oh, yeah, come on.

It was so generous. Do you think that you are, who do you get that from? Is that from your parents? Is that from like how you were raised? Is that from like life experience? Like, because not everybody has that. I think it's from friends that I've known throughout my life.

I think it's from friends from when I was in Chicago and I didn't have a car. And that's just kind of like what you did. That's interesting. Yeah. And it's also like, also selfishly, it just completes the trip. Do you know what I mean? As opposed to if I dropped you somewhere, something's not done until you tell me you got home okay.

That is so funny to me. Yeah, it becomes another leg of a trip that I'm responsible for. That's a little bit of an OCD quality, right? It might be, yeah. It's like closing the loop. Yeah's like, it's going to bed. Closing the loop. Yeah, just like, let's go to sleep. Let's go to bed and the night is done. That is really funny.

Yeah. When you were on tour in your punk band, what was the strangest thing you've ever witnessed? Because I feel like with punk shows, it's like people are moshing and they're like, you know, there's fights sometimes at punk shows. Like, what's the weirdest thing you've ever witnessed at those shows? There was one crazy thing I remember in Las Vegas where our singer is African American and Nazis, like, Nazis showed up. We were opening for a band called Down By Law, I think.

And they were really good, but for some reason a bunch of skinheads showed up. Oh my God. And we played, I think, one or two songs and we just left. It was just clearly they were not into us. That was pretty nasty. That was bad news. Wait, but there was no fighting or anything?

No fighting, but it was aggressive enough that we were like, we're done. I feel like that's... Do you ever think about writing that as a movie? Like something in that universe? Yeah, except some of it seems so unbelievable. If you watch the movie and a bunch of skinheads

showed up, I have a memory of them, Zeke Hyling. I don't know if they went that far, but it was... But you wouldn't believe it. Because also, why did they turn up? You know what I mean? Also, it was a legit theater. I think it was a

theater there. It was like a legit show that it made no sense. We're like, Las Vegasgas why here but there they were that was a real bummer that's that was something that we walked away from going like this is not this is the not fun part of touring that is really sad yeah yeah that was that was not good that's uh also because like punk rock, it's supposed to be a sort of, you know, its own protected world. So that some people took punk rock as meaning that is just, that was very disheartening. Right.

It's supposed to be sort of about people who feel like outcasts. Exactly. And they're going to make their own music, and everybody is sort of accepted. Yeah. Like the freaky kind of, you know. Yeah. There's something artsy about it,

but that was such a sort of thuggish view of it. That's what's funny about it. You know, we talk about the idea of it being a movie. It's like, that's what was funny about This is Spinal Tap, which is as a touring performer, you just go like, yeah, like most of this is pretty accurate. Oh, my God. Oh, my God.

The accuracy of that movie. It's dead on. I mean, here we are 40 years later, and that is dead on. It's always, it's every venue is like that. Every venue is no one knows where the exits are, no one knows where the entrances are, no one knows where the dressing rooms are. And also that thing of talking things up

so you can feel better about it. Hey, we're fifth before the headliner, but we're not seventh. Oh my gosh. That's so true. I think one time you were saying, I was asking you about SNL, and you were saying one of the strangest things, I think, was meeting Paul McCartney. Oh, yeah.

I mean, strange, but in a good way. I mean, that's the most, first of all, it's the most that I ever tried to play it cool and not freak him out with how much he means to me. Yeah. But to see someone not at his concert, it wasn't like he's like, it was because it was SNL and we're all working anyway.

It was such a great environment. Also that he wanted to hang out with everybody. Yeah. And everyone was being funny and loose. It wasn't like an award ceremony or something. It was like this loose, crazy thing. So, oh, my God, a highlight. Yeah, are you kidding me?

Do you have any advice for anyone who ever meets their hero? What to, like you're meeting McCartney. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do you have advice? What should you, how should you act? What should you say? What should you do? If you meet your version of Paul McCartney in your life?

I would say relax. And to make it a nice moment, don't treat it as like, this is it. Treat it as like, just imagine, even if chances are it's not going to happen, imagine that there'll be like 10 more chances and just relax. Just to have like a nice memory. Yeah. To be like, even if it's something that seems trivial or silly, just so that that memory is just a relaxed memory. Yeah. That would be my advice.

The final slow round, my final slow round question is, what is a piece of advice someone has given to you that you used and it actually worked? These are good questions. You're good at this. Thanks. I'm trying. Because I have not,

because I've not thought of these before. John Waters told me, first, you know, I was pen pals with him when I was a kid. Oh, no kidding. And John Waters, of course, the legendary kind of filmmaker from, I think Maryland, right? But from Baltimore. But from Baltimore, yeah. And John Waters, of course, is a legendary kind of filmmaker from, I think, Maryland, right?

But from Baltimore. But from Baltimore, yeah. And later, in more recent years, we were just talking about when people come up to you and meet you and want to talk to you or whatever, his policies always be nice. And so he said to me, he goes, those are your customers. Like a little shop. And I know it's like a business-y way to think of it. Yeah. I don't mean it in that term, but it is a sort of like, yeah, those people are approaching you because they like what you do.

So it's good to have a good attitude about it. When I was working at The Door, the Washington, D.C. improv when I was in college, I opened for Dave Chappelle, and it was right before Half-Baked came out. And I asked him for a bunch of advice and different things, and he was very sweet and accommodating. And then he goes,

get all your friends to go to Half-Baked, man. It was funny. It was like a little ad at the end. It was like he tagged me with an ad for Half Baked. Because I was one of the customers. Yeah. There's a really good one that Nick Swartzen told me. Yeah.

This is a really literal one that I took the advice and I still use it to this day. And he got it from somebody else. When you walk on stage, be smiling. Oh my God, that's so smart. I love it. Wow.

Wow, is that a good piece of advice. Meaning like the audience is like, I've never heard that. I love that. What's he happy about? Let us in. Oh, I've never heard that. I love wise. Why? You know, what's he happy about? What, what, you know, let us in. Oh, I thought that was so good. First of all, I've never heard that as advice.

Uh, second of all, that's actually, it's just a wonderful piece of advice and not just for the stage in general, a good default is, is a nice smile. Absolutely. Yeah. Why not? Absolutely. Why not lead with a smile? Stepping away from my conversation with Fred Armisen to send a shout out to Truff Hot Sauce.

Truff Hot Sauce is a, it's a completely unique thing. It's like a luxury hot sauce with real black truffles and chili peppers, and it's got this amazing taste. I gave it to my brother Joe, because you know Joe. Joey Bag of Donuts loves free stuff. And he called me from a parking lot of a cafe, and he's eating an egg and cheese sandwich, he puts truff on it and he goes this is unbelievable and later that night he texts me and he goes i put it on brown rice it's unbelievable uh and so it's sort of like its own deal like you can sort of put it on anything

i have to have it with chicken i put on quesadillas um you can get 15% off site-wide when you use promo code Burbiggs at truff.com. T-R-U-F-F.com. Promo code Burbiggs. Give it a shot. I think you'll love it. And now, back to the show. So this is a story that I wanted to run by you today. It's actually based on like a joke I had, like a one-off joke years ago.

But then I recently wrote out the full story and I thought, oh, maybe this could be in something. Which is, I was, many years ago, I was living in this small apartment in Greenwich Village that was slightly bigger than my body. And one day I saw a mouse and I leaned over and I said, where are you going to sleep? And so I went to the corner bodega to get some traps. And my observation about traps is that I feel like they're obvious even for mice. I feel like they're obvious even for mice. It's like saying, like, hey, you want some cheese on a wooden plank? Like, I don't have proof of this, but I think the mice who go for it are the slightly overweight sort of Mike Birbiglia of mice

who are going like, I know it's a trap. I just like cheese. and like, I know it's a trap. I just like cheese. So I look at the snap traps, but then I get the glue trap, which ethically I'm opposed to, but I also didn't want to live with a mouse.

And so I bring it home. This is on, I was living on Sullivan Street at the time. And I reluctantly put one of the traps on the floor. And I swear to God, Fred, the moment I put it down, I see a mouse jog across the floor towards me, stick into the glue trap, and immediately completely stuck right in front of me. And I was like, this is my worst nightmare.

So I immediately try to free the mouse. I take a toilet brush, and I'm trying to push the mouse off the trap. But even in the best case scenario, I get him off and he's got one leg and he's got glue on his back. And it's like your uncle with war scars, like uncle glue traps back. So now I'm panicking and I'm saying to the mouse, like, I know we've had our differences, but I'm going to get you out of here.

We're going to save your life. I'm going to get you out of here. We're going to save your life. I'm going to set you up by a nearby dumpster behind an Italian restaurant. So I'm pushing and pushing. And it hits me that there's no chance that I'm going to break this mouse free from the glue trap. And so I decide that I'm going to drown the mouse. And so I put the trap in the toilet, but the trap keeps floating to the top and I'm pushing it down with a toilet brush and it floats up. And now I'm forcing the mouse to do bobs. He's in this morbid swimming class at the Y and finally the mouse perishes. the mouse perishes. And I'm in my underwear and I'm sweaty and I'm exhausted. And in my hand is a toilet brush attached to a glue trap attached to a dead, drowned mouse. And in this state,

I exit my apartment on Sullivan Street and walk to the garbage. And I look around and there are five people staring at me and then glancing away. And that's when I realize that eventually we all become someone else's New York story. This is great. That one's complete. That's complete. Does that feel complete to you? Yeah, that's a complete beginning, middle end. Excellent. I guess my question to you would be, does this story about the mouse make it into a show about mortality? Is it thematically tight enough to be in a show called The Old Man and the Pool? Yes, but I don't see it as because because of the mouse's mortality it's it's the sort of um uh thinking what other people think about you when you go out into you know when you're outside interesting that's the part that gets you yeah

that's the part where that i don't know if i I'm like reaching for this, but I do feel like – No, I think you're onto something. Like me in my neighborhood when I'm in front of my house is me at my real age. If I'm taking out the garbage, if I'm doing something with leaves, that's where you're like – if the little kids saw you, they're like – they could sort of pick out who you are. You're that guy. You're that guy. You're that guy. And so the mortality part is you're like,

it's not a glamorous, fun thing to go to your garbage can to throw out that mouse. That's where you're like, this is, you know. There's the romantic version that it's like a New York story, but then there's just like, that's you as a real, like a grownup. That's really interesting. Like, that's you as a real, like, a grown-up. That's really interesting.

That is so helpful because it does make me realize, like, that's a worthwhile thing to ponder in the show, which is this idea of, like, we're all the protagonists of our own lives. But then to other people, we just aren't. We're just that guy. We're the guy holding a mouse on a toilet brush in his underwear. And it's not a dating story. It's not like there was a date

and I was trying to, it's none of that stuff. It's like very domestic. Like there was a mouse in my house. Yeah. And I had to kill it. That is so helpful. My pleasure.

I'm glad I got to hear it. I had a rat guy come to my house. I live in Los Angeles. I didn't think I had a rat problem, but someone told me, a rat problem, but someone told me, my sort of handyman was like, there's, you know, rat waste in your crawl space. So it's something that every, you know, it's just a part of having a house. I'm sorry, a gigantic mansion. So anyway, this guy, and this guy was great

he set down rat traps but he explained to me that rats are so smart that he has to wear gloves when he puts peanut butter on a rat trap because rats smell a human hand and they're like that's a trap

no they're so smart that they're like, that's a trap. No! They're so smart that they're like, we're not going for that peanut butter, so make sure that that thing really smells like, you know, a human hasn't been around it. Oh, that's pretty amazing. Yeah, incredible.

And did your rat problem go away? Honestly, I don't think I had a rat problem. That sounds like such a denial, but I never saw one. It's possible also that I could dig into just how much I fear rats and mice because they do sort of infect my dreams. They're horrible. They're awful. There's something, the imagery of rats and mice, and I don't know if you've read the legends of the rat king, the groups of rats that form one single rat. If you see one rat, there are others right nearby.

They're in the walls. Wherever humans are. They're smart and horrible. I don't have a sort of love of like, I think they're terrible. Yeah. Oh, you know what?

Not as animals. I don't disapprove of them as animals. I just feel like get out of our houses. We built these things. Get out of here. Get your own house. You have all of nature. Build your own house.

Go to a forest. Yeah. There's so much space. You see that this looks like a house. Yeah. You see that we're trying to get rid of you. Get out. Fred, we're going to get a lot of letters about this.

Well, it's a discussion. If we get a lot of letters, then it's an open discussion. The final thing we do is called working it out for a cause. The final thing we do is called Working It Out for a Cause. And if you have a nonprofit that you've given to in the past, what we do is I donate to them, and then I link them in the show notes. And it could be anywhere. Great.

It's called sweetrelief.org, and it's for musicians. It's a charity for musicians who are going through hard times. So they're great. That's a great thing. We'll contribute to them. And yeah, something to keep in mind is that live performers have basically not been able to perform for a year. I mean, it's a real struggle. Especially since they also don't sell records in the

same way. Yeah. So it was the one thing that people would always talk about is like, at least there's live shows. Yeah. Well, Fred, thank you so much. It's such an honor to have you on. I appreciate your notes and feedback. They're really helpful. Oh, thanks. Thanks for sharing that with me. I feel, uh, honored. Working it out, cause it's not done. Working it out, cause there's no hope. That's going to do it for another episode of Working It Out. Thank you so much for listening. I love talking to Fred. We're going to post the video clip of his impression of me on my Instagram and Twitter, which are both at Burbigs, B-I-R-B-I-G-S, because his counting impression of me is quite visual. The producers of Working It Out are myself, along with Peter Salamone and Joseph Berbiglia,

consulting producer Seth Barish, sound mix by Kate Balinski, associate producer Mabel Lewis, special thanks to my consigliere Mike Berkowitz, as well as Marissa Hurwitz and Josh Upfall. As always, a special thanks to Jack Andonoff for his music, and a very special thanks to my wife, the great J. Hope Stein. Our book, The New One, is in your local bookstore, so keep supporting your local books, your local pizza, your local groceries, your local produce.

As always, a special thanks to my daughter, Una, who created this radio fort made of pillows. And thanks most of all to you who have listened. Tell your friends. Tell your friends. Tell your enemies. We're working it out. Right here. On.

Working it out. I'll see you next time.