Mike Birbiglia's Working It Out - 41. Jack Antonoff: Jokes Are The Melodies Of Comedy

Episode Date: May 18, 2021

Hey, everybody. We are back with a new episode of Working It Out. I am so excited for this one. This is so long in the waiting. Jack Andanoff we have today. Jack wrote, of course, the theme music for this show, the interstitial music that runs through the podcast. He also played the Curtain Call song in the Broadway show, which became a Netflix special called The New One,

the song that is like, there will be a Jesus in your womb. You might know that one. But that's not what Jack Antonoff is most known for. That's not what Jack Antonoff is most known for. He's a five-time Grammy Award-winning musician, a front man for his own band, Bleachers, which has new music out today, which you should check out.

It's amazing. He was in the band Fun, as well as Steel Train. He has collaborated and co-written songs with Taylor Swift, Bruce Springsteen, Lana Del Rey, and on and on and on. We are old friends. We met maybe 16, 17 years ago. We meet up for lunch every week in our neighborhood and go to a little diner. So this conversation is sort of a visit to the diner, sort of a peek into those conversations. And I try out a lot of material. A little bit of a warning.

A lot of the material is about death. There's some dark stuff. Stuff about suicidal thoughts. Stuff that, if that's not what you want to hear about today, maybe it's not the episode for you. That said, one of my favorite episodes we've ever done, hands down, Maybe my favorite.

Many hard laughs, many insights from one of the people whom I admire most. I hope you enjoy my conversation with Jack Antonoff. I was trying to think of one of the things we should talk about, and I have a ton of stuff for us to talk about, but I wanted to think of one of the things for us to talk about, and it was like, if I were going to say, if I were going to give you a compliment about your comedic stylings, and I were going to be over the top, I would say, you're as funny as any comedian.

You're as good a joke teller as any comedian. But actually, that would be like over the top, right? But I'll actually pull it back to something that's a more realistic compliment, which is that when you and I talk, your level of intense, focused listening and your sense for yes-anding and collaboration is at such a high level that comedically you can build on essentially any joke anyone is making. And I would guess that's true. And I'm sure, of course, it's from collaborating with so many musicians over the years,

but it's true in comedy, and I would guess it's true in almost all fields of art that you're able to do that. I appreciate that, Mike, first of all. Do you know what I mean, though? No, I really don't know what you mean, and I appreciate the separation, because separate point but connected, the relationship between musicians and comedians is a strange one. So you never want to be the musician who secretly thinks they could have been a comedian. You know what I mean?

Because that's a dark energy. That's a dark energy. But collaboration and I think improv, you know, like when you talked to me about your improv days and like I did like Ask Cat once, and just little things I've gotten to do outside of just our conversations that I would call improv. Our bits that we do at lunch. Yes. I would say is the closest I feel.

It's like that Venn diagram. You know how artists and painters and musicians and comedians and directors and writers and all these different art forms and then there's some spot where we all meet up yes that's where i feel is like this common ground it's uh the the improv that comes along with it all of just like a friend of mine calls it uh daring to suck like you know yes yeah we're working on music dare to suck dare to suck dare to suck i actually think i think max martin may have coined that phrase i'm not sure but it's Yes, yes. Yeah, I love that. Actually, when Abbie Jacobson was on this podcast, she quoted her professor from college, Jerry Saltz, who had a phrase that was similar, which is to fail flamboyantly. Yes. Well, there's a hard distinction, which I think takes a really long time to understand. And I think film and TV has really fucked this up for us because of the image of an artist that they portray,

which isn't true. Sucking in the process is different than sucking. The work you make and the work you put out into the world should be something that you believe is your brilliance and filling a void and the utmost importance, right? But the path to that isn't a biopic. It's not a movie. It's not like a string of beautiful events.

And that's the daring to suck thing. And I think all my favorite creative people are really in touch with that. And it's important to put yourself in a community where people are volleying that back and forth, where the separation between the work and the way you get to the work. So you can guess and I can guess,

but I would say if I were to guess why we're friends 16 years later is related to the daring to suck, failing flamboyantly concept that we're unpacking. Definitely. I think that's actually what we have in common. Because there's many moments when- That we've been terrible.

Well, I think that's what we end up- Because we hang out way more than most people hang out, just like in life. Yeah. You're probably the only person I have like a sort of like a – almost like an adolescent relationship with where it's like, all right, talk tomorrow. See you soon. Yeah, yeah. when we talk into the same thing, which is this daring to suck,

trying to figure out how to make the work, trying to not go crazy while making it, and then commiserating about making sure that we don't lose the people in our lives in the process. Yeah, that's a huge part of it, yeah. I mean, I think the thing that we've had in common all these years, and I think what's held us together as friends is that we end up, we're both people who spend a lot of time on the road touring. road but I like being out there and meeting the people who are connecting with the thing I'm creating to understand what their relationship is with the work and how it relates to my relationship

to the work and then I also the experiences of being out there are what feed into the work that's sort of in a nutshell how I feel I'm I feel the same way it's like the difference in work that's in conversation or work that's just making a statement. I've always felt like what I'm doing is best in a conversation. So when I'm out there and I'm, you know, you kind of almost literally are having a conversation sometimes, but it's like, and I'm part of that and I'm seeing how it's moving.

I can write better and i can move better and it's just the road and and being an artist the pandemic is really reminding me how separate they are you know there's so many people i know that are just like yeah fuck touring yeah fuck it this is great you know like i can just stay home i've been astonished i've been astonished by how many people i've heard say that. They're truly separate skills. And it's why we see so many people who love the road and don't even like making work. A lot of not great artists just love being on the road and kind of cling to that, but don't really care to make the work. And then other people who love making work and hate the road.

And a very rare cross-section, I think we're both, who really, really love both. I really, really adore both. And it's been hard in this time to lose the other side of it. Here's my, I have two things. One is, these are my joke questions. Joke questions?

These are joke questions. Joke questions? They're joke. Joke questions. Joe? Joke. The first question I have here is, what's your fucking deal? It's sort of hard for me to figure out still.

As much as I'm working on my records and stuff, I'm also working on figuring out what the deal is. I think it might be more clear to you than me. I love that you think that. That's completely wrong.

I don't know. I'm not sure what my deal is because I feel so angry sometimes. Okay. Same. Same. I also feel so, like, you know, peace and love with existence. I don't know. I don't know what my deal is.

I don't know if figuring out your deal is a positive thing. Oh, well, that's a good curveball. I love that. I would say figuring out how to deal is more important than figuring out your deal. Because figuring out your deal is a little bit of like a cabaret act, isn't it? Sort of like a party trick. Like, this is my deal. Like, I'm the guy who's this.

Yeah, what's the two-dimensional version of you? When I first was touring, I spent a lot of time in your home state of New Jersey because there's tons of comedy clubs in there. There used to be even more. We love to laugh, Mike. It feels so good to laugh. They would see my name on the marquee,

and it would be Birbiglia, and they thought I was an Italian act. And so they would be like, I remember one time this guy came up to me after the show. It was at Rascal's Comedy Club in Ocean Township, New Jersey. And he goes, I liked it, but I thought there was going to be more Italian stuff. Is that when you pivoted to sort of some of your early Italian work, the Olive Garden Italian joke? That's where Olive Garden Italian came from.

It actually did come from that. Because one thing I've seen you do well, this is an interesting segue to this, is you'll take something people dislike about you, turn it into a joke that's making fun of them, but in a way you're also inviting them to the table. Oh, that's really interesting. But I think this is important, that having a deal might not be the thing. That's, you've, a hundred points for that answer. Question number two, you've worked with Bruce Springsteen and Taylor Swift. Who's better at music?

What's their deal to begin with, right? Who's better at music? I think you want me to give you an annoyingly sincere answer? Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course. Okay, obnoxious sincerity, dare to suck. You reach a point when you're just so close to making the work that you're supposed to be making that you entirely drift out of the arena of competition.

Yeah. And we see this with all great artists where, you know, I like this person, but this person's better, this person's good, I like that person's falsetto, but this person's a better falsetto, and then poof, when you deal with really great artists who are just in their element, you just forget that, and you're just sort of transported somewhere else.

So in a totally not bullshit way, it's an impossible question to answer because they're just existing on their own planes. And that sort of goes for any art. It's not even like you have to be a level of completely brilliant to achieve that. We see people all the time who just sort of crest into this place where they're just doing their fucking thing, and that's that.

And that's the goal, and that's really, it's hard to hold onto that goal, and this is not meant to shit on anyone, but nobody gets that besides your fellow artist you're not going to hear that from the industry you're not going to hear that what do you mean by that? I don't think that's something that is understandable unless you're

unless you're making the work or deeply involved in the work which is why the relationship between the artist and the people experiencing it fans right is so important that's the relationship that's the heart and the people experiencing it, fans, right, is so important. That's the relationship. That's the heart and soul. Yeah, yeah. That's right.

And everything else is, and I don't even mean this in some, like, it's all bullshit, man, kind of way. But it's just everything else isn't really hip to this idea that you're just trying to crystallize some experience. Yeah, no, I know what you mean. experience. Yeah, no, I know what you mean. Because it's like, in some ways, like rock and roll journalism or comedy journalism is really just trying to put into a chart or a graph or a visual or even just to words what's happening between the fans and the artists. And also make a bigger statement about culture, which is, I mean, check this out. At any given time, there has to be the best movie of the month and the worst movie of the month.

Yeah. But what if there was no great movie that month? What if there was no bad movie that month? That's right. You know, it's sort of like every year we have to crown some new classics. Sure. But what if nobody made a classic?

No, I think you're absolutely right. What if there were too many classics made? We get that from 1971. Or what if there what i think you're absolutely right if there were too many classics made we we get that from 1971 or what if or what if yeah what if there was a bum decade but what if there's a bum decade what if there was a decade that was so brilliant that it's impossible for us to act adequately right and and discuss the level of important work and you know so that the machine has to churn of, you know, new classic, new shit, this is bullshit, this is great. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And sometimes they're right, sometimes they're wrong.

I don't really care, but I'm just saying that it's just further proof that the only thing that matters is this sort of lonesome conversation between the artist and the person taking it in, which is a very solo experience, even if you're in a crowd. So that arrives me at a question about the new album, which I haven't heard the full album. I've only heard three songs, which are incredible,

which is when you approach a new album, I mean, this album is very different from the other Bleachers albums. What is the goal of an album in terms of differentiation from the other albums? There's sort of the superficial, and then the superficial is kind of like, I used a lot of these kind of guitar sounds. I played a lot of 12 strings in this album.

Maybe I'll get away from that. Maybe I'll get away from these specific sounds that were sort of stamping the last record. So on my first record, I was really into these sort of like Depeche Mode-y sounds. And I know I figured out how to get them and tweak them into something more personal. So you step away from certain things specifically. get them and tweak them into something more personal but you know so you step away from certain things specifically but then the much more important part is um you know if you make a good album then it's going to be a little documentary of how you're feeling about being in existence in that moment and then therefore it can't be connected to anything else

um so you start with these you start with these more basic concepts of like, no acoustics on this record, no this kind of drum, no that, but it's all bullshit. They're all just tools to like, I see it as like armor to like, you're going into this absurd battle with yourself to make work. You're going into this absurd battle and you're naked and frail and stupid and daring to suck and all this stuff. Yeah.

And then you get these little things. Every time you write a good part, it's another piece of armor. If you find a good sound, more and more armor. It's just something that guides you through this thing because it's just always a mountain. And you have these, it's so psychotic. I know you know this feeling.

These moments, oh my God, I'm going to finish this album. No, you're not. Oh my God, this one's going to be easy. No, it isn't. Oh my God, this one's so hard. I know you know this feeling you know these moments oh my god I'm going to finish this album no you're not oh my god this one's going to be easy no it isn't oh my god this one's so hard no harder than that

it's just it's always this weird mountain and you just have to kind of go through it but it's hard to know what's different because

I can sort of pinpoint it but at the end of the day I just like I just want it to sound like how I feel and that's something that you just know

when you hear it and sometimes it's actually like how I feel. And that's something that you just know when you hear it. And sometimes it's actually not how you thought you were going to be. You know what's funny is like, you know, I think that that's 100% true of all of my work. Yeah, like I think of your shows, like there's a trajectory that I imagine you would imagine this artist would grow into. And then there's the reality of how the fuck you feel. this artist would grow into and then there's the reality of how the fuck you feel. Like,

from knowing you for X amount of years, I never thought you would write a show where the crux of it was going to be about fatherhood, marriage,

and love. That's truly the opposite artist I thought you were going to turn into. And by the way, and I completely love it, but it's,

and I'm not putting words in your mouth, but. And your song is at the end of it, by the way. I Want to Get Better is the credit song in the end of the Broadway show. It's, and I'm not putting words in your mouth. And your song is at the end of it, by the way. I Want to Get Better is the credit song in the end of the Broadway show.

It honors. It's my only time I've ever had any inch of me on Broadway. But it's like, you know, your earlier work was not cynical at all, but you were just sort of like skating on the sides of things, making like these observations and kind of like it was, know like poking at things a little bit right kind of like yeah what i would consider jewish or italian work like yeah taking stabs at an idea what's this what's this you know like you know like just classic perbiglia stuff just like i went to uh you know get your shoes and they were like you can't get shoes you're an idiot just like you know just like bizarre shit and and the fact that you were forced because your art is at the whim of telling

the story of your life you were forced to make work about being in a marriage which brings me to which brings me to joke question number four so you've worked with bruce springsteen and taylor wait what was number three oh it was how do you describe the journey of your hair? Oh, okay. We'll go to number four. Great. Come on. You must have an answer.

You must have an answer for that. Wow, man. The journey of my hair, it's a stress. You know what? The journey of my hair is this. You can't fucking win them all and if you win them all you're not relatable and then like your hair i like your hair and then i can't believe it i can't believe it i can't i can't believe you took offense to that i don't

take offense to it i'm just sort of dining out on the idea that no one's listening to my music necessarily because they want my hair that That's so funny. Whenever people... Which Chris Isaac can't say. Which Mike Ness can't say. Which Roy Orbison couldn't say. You know what's so funny? Joni Mitchell can't say that. You know what's so funny?

All the stones. You know what's so funny about that is whenever people criticize my appearance, and I'm not criticizing your appearance, you're just being weird um whenever people criticize my appearance i say that exact thing which is no one's here for the abs i that is exactly how i feel whenever someone criticizes my appearance or says i look like rick moranis or tweets some meme at me about Rick Moranis, they are

further ingraining this concept in my head that everyone's here for the real thing, and I love that. On the flip side, it also does make me feel bad when people say that they'd fuck me and they think it's a weird thought they're having.

If I log onto Twitter, I'll see a lot of that. Kind of would fuck this dude, thought they're having. Yeah. If I log on to Twitter, I'll see a lot of that, like, like, like, like, kind of would, you know,

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LOL? LOL? LOL? LOL? LOL? LOL? LOL? LOL? LOL? So my daughter, Una, who you know and is five years old, she's a big fan as well. And she had a question for when I interview you today. So do you have any questions for Jack today when I interview him? Because you've heard a lot of his music. He does Bleachers, there's his band, and then the Taylor Swift album, he worked on that too. I know. Yeah, I know you love that.

Do you have any questions for him about music and making music and he does a song I want to get better that plays at the end of the new one remember when I was at the theater and at the end it was I want to get better do do do do do

do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do I want to get better. And then there's a part where it goes, There will be a Jesus in your womb. It's actually a pretty big honor. It's more like an Oscar than an Emmy. Yeah.

I knew that one. Yeah, that was Jack. Does he do every song that there is? That's a good question. Do he do every song that there is? That's a good question. Do I do every song that there is? That there is. Yeah, so I'm in my apartment right now. In the back of it, I have a studio in here.

And in here, the answer is yes. And the reason is because I think writing specifically albums and creating a body of work is really about sort of living in its own universe and then it's sort of bouncing around in conversation but I think the question that Una is really asking

is do I feel like I'm part of something or am I kind of off here on an island and I only feel like I'm a part of something when I'm on tour. Wow. Yeah. That's fascinating.

Sorry. I'm a part of something on tour, but I really feel a part of something when I play a festival on tour. And I always think it's so funny when people are like, ah, festivals suck. You don't get a sound check. And it's like, guys, we're these weird these, like, weird planets volleying around. And then, like, three times a year, we all get to, like, run into each other and be like, hey.

Yeah. Hey. You know, like, you're in. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Oh, my God. It's like fucking Waterworld. It's insane that how much we have in common,

and we never see each other. You know I love festivals. And that's, of course, where we met. Yeah. But I feel like when I, one of the interesting things in the last few years is you and I have just made a few little songs and things, and I've come to your studio. And when you're in the studio,

it's a different you. It's almost like you're in a zombie state when you're working. Interesting. But it's very nice, but it's extreme. You know what it reminds me of? You remind me of a movie director when you're making music.

Like an asshole? No, no, just like you have a vision. Well, I just feel that's the funny thing about collaboration is to have, I have this North Star theory right where it's like it works when the people in the room are looking at the same thing right and it's horrible when they're not and everyone knows the feeling

it's almost like being a kid with like parents or something you're like if we're all looking at the same thing we can do so much we can agree and there won't be a tantrum if we're looking at different things it's like the whole journey is going to be just a disaster until we explode but i think that's the crux of collaboration is like looking at something really far away and then everyone's just like inching towards it so i like that feeling when when everyone's looking at the same thing yes no and that's why i think you're like a director but um i want to point out that when i

was listening to music with my daughter and then coming up with questions to ask you you know it's the most joy it's the cliche from the show it's the most joy it's the most joy but then it sometimes it is you you've you've made me think of something while you said that. Do you feel like you ever, through your work, almost like burn down different things in your life so you cannot really, like, so for example, marriage and fatherhood, do you feel like you just did it all and now you have to go somewhere else because your work is so focused on specific things?

Because I occasionally feel this way about certain things in my life. It's like, do you feel that? Like you have to... No, I think that's a great question, and I think it'll segue into the material I pitched you today that we'll try to build on, which is basically that my new show is all about death, and it's because I've gotten married,

which I never thought I was going to do. I've had a child, which I never thought I was going to do, and I've hit middle age, which, again, never thought I was going to do. I've had a child, which I never thought I was going to do. And I've hit middle age, which, again, never thought I was going to do. I thought I'd die young. I just did. You did? Yeah, I just did. You really did.

So, yeah, for sure. Not in a sexy way. You were like, I'm going to die young. No, I just, I mean, I jumped through a second story window when I was 25. Oh, you mean like literally? Yeah. Yeah, like, I mean, i think when you have that i had cancer i was 19 i jumped through a window at 25 like when when when those types of circumstances

occur in your teens and 20s you just kind of like well forget about it i mean i'm not going to live to 40 and so at you know at age 42 now i'm writing this show and it's all about death and and you know someone and it's similar to death. And, and, you know, someone in the similar to that question, I was asking you about albums. Like, why do you write an album the way you do and about the things that you do? And I think it's because you write about all that you can think about all the time. That's the best album you can write. I think you're right. And I think at the beginning of a process, you're always like thinking about the places that you want to focus and it just sort of unravels and you just end up, you know, making the best patchwork of where you're at in a moment. Yeah. Because I've

so, I always have this like grand idea, like I'm like, this one's going to be about like this little like cul-de-sac of my life. And then it just sort of wonderfully devolves into a picture of where the fuck i'm at period this is an interesting thing that ira brought up because i i did the second episode with ira where i tell a story about having cancer when i was 19 and and he gives me notes on it second episode with ira i re i re i do a i do a page one rewrite of the same story. He gives me notes on that. Okay. And I talk about this experience of finding out I have cancer and crying with my parents

in my parents' kitchen, basically. And he said, basically, I understand that you're crying, and I understand that there are indicators of how you feel, but how did you really feel? Like, all of these things are on the outside, and what's it like on the inside? And that's when I came up with this detail that I did not know, I did not have in my memory bank, or I didn't have as a top of

mind memory, which is sitting in my parents' house in my bedroom there alone, and I didn't call anybody. And I'm someone who works through things by talking about them on the phone or in person, whatever it is. And I was speechless. And I say, and the line is, is that cancer literally took my breath away. Do you have anything like that in your life where you're trying to express through your music what something feels like and you keep writing drafts of it when you're on the outside but then you make a breakthrough to get on the inside yeah well that that's the huge line between telling a story versus telling someone how something feels um and it's crazy because i think with especially with huge traumas it's so implied that we know how it feels that sometimes we don't know how it feels.

You know, so if I, you know, I really, really know what it feels like to wake up in the morning and to kind of look out my window and, you know, have these like floods of thoughts before I get up. Because it's not a time that is obvious I should know how it feels. So I'm actually really feeling it. But when I think about great traumas, people I know who have died, and all the things around it that are really incredibly traumatic, it's almost like there's this bullshit PR spin that you know how it feels, but you're a baby and you don't know how it feels. Right.

I think that's why hearing that and the way Ira put that really stops me dead in my tracks. I think it's a brilliant way of asking someone something. And I also think it's the problem with huge life moments is I've learned this the more I've worked through some grief, which is because something is so implied, you might only be getting a real surface piece of it. And you might also be sweeping a lot of things under that rug. So for example, I lost my sister when I was 18. And for all my twenties, I was like, well, I'm fucked up because this happened.

Right. And some of that's true. It wasn't a good thing. It fucked me up. Yeah. But I also was fucked up for a lot of reasons. There was a lot of generational trauma. There was a lot of chemical stuff going on. There was drugs I was using.

There was a million other things. But everything that happened got swept under that huge traumatic rug. And you probably had that too because you had cancer. That's a big deal. Yeah, sure. And when you have cancer and three years later you're having a panic attack, it's probably because you had cancer that's a big deal sure and when you have cancer and and three years later you're having a panic attack it's probably because you had cancer or this goes wrong it's probably because you have cancer or you're not going to release it because you have cancer cancer cancer cancer death death death yeah yeah but the truth is it's robbing you

of the experience especially at the age that we were both at these really important formative years in the early 20s i've learned learned that I was really, I robbed myself. It's not my fault, but I robbed myself of the experience of learning all the ways that I was incorrectly wired because everything was about death. And it isn't. It's not. And I think that's what's amazing about Ira's question is that question forces you into it and forces you to actually explain why you're an expert on something that you think you're an and forces you to actually explain

why you're an expert on something that you think you're an expert on, but you actually might not be an expert on. Because living through something doesn't make you an expert. It makes you a survivor of something. But to be able to sit and think with it later is huge. Well, it's interesting because I was,

you should say that. I was that for comedy. Yeah, this is good comedy. This is good comedy content. We're going to put this on hizabazoo.com. Maybe rascals will have us do this live. I thought it would be more Italian with the grief. No, I think people want to hear about this, actually.

Yeah, yeah. That was my shadow yelling. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But that's a huge realization I've had in my life. These things I've hinged my life and my work on, they were just one thing. No matter how huge they were, they were still one thing. I'm jealous of my friends, not because they didn't experience a specific trauma, but because at a certain time in life, they were a little bit more loose,

a little more trauma-free just for a certain stretch, and were able to develop different buckets of why they were fucked up, not just this one, oh, I know someone who died. There was a moment that stopped me in my tracks one day when I was talking casually on the phone to your sister Rachel, where she said, and I'll ask her, if I use this audio, I'll ask her if it's okay to use it. But we were having like a frank, candid conversation about life and death and serious matters.

And she said, if Jack died, I would kill myself. And it just stopped me. It stopped me in my tracks for the same exact reason, which is to say that she's not. And of course, I said, you know, please don't. And I that's, you know, like, we, you know, you should know that. No, you know, that would make it worse for all these, you know, all the people who love you. But at the same time, I actually felt like I understood Rachel really well in that moment in relationship to you both lost your sister and how close you and Rachel are partly because of that. And that was like a clarifying moment for like, I understand how Rachel feels. It's sort of this feeling because I relate to it.

It's not a morbid or bad thing. It's more just sort of like, okay, we can carry on like this but but no more if you know any more and then and then you shut the thing down kind of like you know a great great great band or something you know you imagine like an important member dying you're just like don't go on you know just just get out yeah uh but um it would make things worse yeah and i think this is interesting i think it's an interesting question about what you think you can and can't live without sure uh yeah because it constantly gets redefined in my grandfather uh when he was dying we were watching videos of him younger he was a rabbi giving sermons, which was very strange.

And I remember he was dying and we were watching a video with him. So he was talking to himself at a younger age. And he was saying that a human being is like a gas tank where when you hit empty, there's this secret 20 miles. And you don't know you have it until you hit empty. So everyone's like, oh, if that happened, I'd be done. And then you get there and you actually have 20 more miles to get to the gas station. It was really interesting because he was dying.

So it was sort of like bizarre watching it happen. But it's so true. You think about, you know, we all say, oh, I could never do that. I could never live through that. And then you get there and you have a little bit more than you think. So the joke version of that would be,

so my grandfather says this thing, you always have 20 more miles. And then a few days later, he died. And I thought, I think it was more like two. This is a good stretch, Mike. I say something really serious and you did the joke version,

because I love it, but if you've ever like, has your joke mind ever, besides the Gotham Awards. Right, from Thank God for Jokes. From Thank God for Jokes with David O. Russell, yeah. And there was the other one, wasn't there like a benefit you did

and you said something horrible about someone there? A football player maybe? Gosh. What am I thinking of? A golf tournament? Oh yeah, there, a football player maybe? Gosh. What am I thinking of? A golf tournament? Oh, yeah, there's a charity golf tournament for like a cancer charity. Yeah, you made a cancer joke.

And I made a cancer joke, which I thought was going to be therapeutic and helpful, talking about my own experience, but it didn't quite land and it seemed like it just made it worse. Yeah, I mean, I feel like I'm in that space. I think always comedy is in danger of that space, which is why I always find it odd when people go like,

this comedian crossed the line. And I'm like, right, because the job of the comedian is to flirt with the line. Yeah. So the idea that they cross, I mean, look, I'm not defending people who cross a line, but it's an occupational hazard. Well, I mean, George Carlin has this quote,

which I'm sure you've heard, but I think about it with music all the time. He says, I get out on the stage and I draw a line and I make it really clear the audience is on one side and I'm on the other. I'm paraphrasing, but he does that by, he says something that's so out there that they're like, whoa, that guy, we would never say that.

We're pure. He's over there. He's over there. And then he said, I spend the whole show slowly guiding them to the other side and by the end, without them realizing it happened, they've crossed the line with me. Yeah, that's nice.

And that is the fucking crux of making anything. That's me, yeah, that's music too. That's everything. If you make something that is right, on the right side of the line with the person, then what the fuck are you doing? Yeah. And it's got nothing to do with being offensive or not offensive,

it's just, even on an emotional level, it's like you want people to cross lines, like keep crossing lines, keep crossing lines. You know, the ones that help us grow, not the ones that destroy people. But like, yeah, I always hate when that term, I don't like that term, so-and-so crossed the line because it's a really bad appropriation of what's also a really important thing. In life, we want to be continuously crossing lines, just not the horrible ones. really important thing in life we want to be continuously crossing lines just not the horrible ones well it's also this thing of we all claim to desire provocative art until it provokes us and then we're like hey what the fuck why'd you provoke me so sorry i'm drinking and taking that in

alright so here's some new material so I grew up next to a cemetery and this is just like this is a free rate I was doing about like my relationship with death and death themes I grew up next to a cemetery and my friend Leslie and I would play

we'd play in the cemetery like it was a park. And it really hammered home the idea that death is around us at all times and that gravestones make great soccer goals. Like anything past the crying angels is out of bounds. And like if it hits Donald Wilson, it is not a goal. It has to go between Donald Wilson and Whitney Bonaduce. Whitney Bonaduce.

And I remember, because, you know, I remember walking home from school through the cemetery because it was a shortcut between St. Mary's School and my house. And what always stuck out were these big, grand mausoleums, you know, these stone mausoleums, where some people had a little shed, like a little stone shed for their corpse, which is something we don't talk about enough culturally. We talk about the midlife crisis,

but we don't talk about the afterlife crisis. Mike, that's top-notch, the afterlife crisis. Like, that guy's got a nice car. I got to get a nice car. That guy's got an Ingram pool. I got to get an Ingram pool. That guy's got a mausoleum. I'm going to get a mausoleum.

You know, like, what? Like, not once did any of these people say, wait a minute, I don't know if I'm going to be able to fully enjoy this. They're just like, Randy has one, I'm going to get one. Dead Randy thinks he's better than me? Not a chance. These people are keeping up with the Dead Joneses. Ah!

He wrote it there. The Dead Joneses. There! He wrote it there. The dead Joneses. There's more in here, Mike. Going further down the line of this, like, how it is so dumb that any gravestone is different than any other gravestone. It's absurd. It is so dumb. It is such an embarrassment.

It's completely. So then how I might make this a story, which is like me and Leslie were in the cemetery one day and we saw a woman come up and put flowers down next to a gravestone and start crying and we slinked away and we knew enough to leave, but we couldn't quite grasp what had taken place.

Like, we couldn't fully grasp what had taken place. I mean, it's not even a joke as much as it's sort of like this idea of like, I know, but it's like, I mean, it is funny, but it's sort of like this thing where when you're a kid, if I were to guess, I'd say I was eight years old. Eight, nine years old. It's like you see people grieving, and it doesn't even quite, you get the idea that the husband's dead, but that's kind of it.

Well, it's more comedy then because it's not, you know, when you get older you see someone grieving and it like pings your grief, and when you're a kid you're just like, eh, it looks stupid crying. You're just like. Yes, that's right. Everything is so much funnier.

You're like, you suck. It's like everything, you get older and everything pings everything. You like see a piece of wood and you're like, my old home. You know, you're like. Yes, wow. Why do you think that is?

Just because we're such, just like herbs. We're just so like, we're so sentimental even when we wish. What's a herb? What's a herb? A herb is just like a herb. Like, you know, like a herb is like someone who like, you know, like, you know, it's like a herb. Like someone who like grabs like a felt material and like closes their eyes and like breathes in deeply and like thinks of Donald Wilson. You know, it's like you can be herby about anything. It's like, you their eyes and, like, breathes in deeply and, like, thinks of Donald Wilson. You know, it's like, like, you can be Herbie about anything.

It's like, you can be Herbie about music. You can be Herbie. Herb is, like, anything, like, like, you know, like, Steve Mnuchin's a herb, but also, like, so is, like, someone who's, like, taking a red carpet too seriously. It's like, it's like an awful, like, just like fucking herb. It's like, just like. Is that your word? I don't know if it's mine. I say it a lot. It's like an awful... Oh, interesting. It's like fucking herbs. Is that your word? I don't know if it's mine.

I say it a lot. It's like dorks. In the real sense, not someone who wears a pocket protector. In the real sense, the rewriting that in Back to the Future, Biff was the herb. I think embalming people feels a little misguided. The idea is to forestall decomposition,

but is that really our goal? We all just want one last facial after we're dead? Like, they never pull out those corpses from the ground during a murder investigation and go, this guy's looking good. It's almost like he's alive. His brains are drained through his nose, but man, does that skin glow. Mike, where did all this death material come from, and please say that you saved it for me. I did save it

for you! This means so much to me, I feel so seen. I saved it for you, I built this whole episode for you. I feel like you're so incredibly seen. I built it for you because you wrote the music for the show, and you wrote the music, people should know, you're the music for the show and you wrote people should know you're the soundtrack

of the show this death material is excellent it's really interesting the problem you're going to run into which I personally love is you're going to ping some people I actually think this death material could work really well for a younger crowd which I don't think oh so you think it's going to cross a line for people

I don't think it's going to cross a line I don't think people, it's interesting think it's going to cross a line for people. I don't think it's going to cross a line. I don't think people, it's interesting. Death is really interesting because it's everyone's. You know, cancer is some people's, you know. So it's like I understand like when like you do the cancer stuff, people are like, oh, you crossed the line. Like the only time someone told me to cross the line,

I did like a Jewish joke at this thing and someone was like, you crossed the line. And I was like, I don't know what nobody heard but um you you death is everyone so no one is ever gonna say like you crossed the line i know a dead person but i do think that it's like just forever death is forever this thing that's just like people don't want to fucking cert a certain a certain percentage of people i have it all if i talk talk about it on stage or in a thing or if I do meet and greets and I talk about it, it's like there are some people. Okay, sorry to go around this a little bit. My friend just lost his mother, and he said this thing on theme,

stopped me in my tracks. He said, there's this thing that happens that we all have to deal with but nobody's talking about it yeah and i was like you're right and he was like and when you lose someone or you experience death you go through a period of time where you're just like why the fuck isn't everyone talking about this yeah yeah yeah that's right i have a little bit more on embalming. Part of the reason for embalming is so we can all see our friend one last time at the funeral. I have a solution for that.

Memories. We're going to be using memories for the rest of time anyway. Why don't we get a little practice in at the funeral? I mean, we're all here. And don't forget photos. The iPhone funeral takes such

high quality pics. Have you used the recently dead filter? It takes years off your life, literally. Alright, so that's that. That's embalming the one thing i'll say just to button up your embalming muslim grave bit it is fucking barbaric that we do anything but just like blast ourselves into a flame into space it's crazy it's completely i don't even think just space i mean

we're natural fertilizers yeah like it's just crazy i mean like if I mean, like, if you bought a house, and you found, and you one day were, like, digging in the backyard, and you found, like, a couple dead bodies, like, wouldn't that, like, poison your water? Or wouldn't that, like, poison your crops? Like, burn it up. Like, it's just, like, graveyards are disgusting. I can't.

It's just completely insane. I'm going to be on record right here right now. I've never said this before. If I die, I'm going to be on record right here right now. I've never said this before. If I die, do the most ecologically sound version of cremating me. Put me wherever my body is needed or helpful in the ecosystem.

Oh, but first, make sure I'm dead because I don't want that to happen you know one thing on that really quickly you know you know what bothers me about making sure someone's dead people are always like like if you watch like behind the music like nicki six is always like and then i died and then i came back to life and it drives me crazy because it's like well you didn't because the definition of the definition of dying is not that your heart stops. Yes. The definition of dying is that you die. The human body, as we see every day, is capable of its heart stopping and then reviving. And all these fucking rock stars would be like, and then I fucking died.

And then poof. It's like you actually didn't die. That's a really good point maybe i'll use that actually um i want to point out that the jokes that people are listening to in this episode are part of a larger show that's a dramatic you know dramatic and personal and funny story uh about life and death and that the joke part is really just to lubricate a much larger topic. Yeah. And also, well, I think the jokes,

and I think this is almost at the heart of what you do, the jokes are, they're a sneak attack. A sneak attack, yeah. Yeah, it's... They create a sneak attack. Yeah, it's look over here while you're getting, you know, while the doctor's putting the shot in your arm and you don't even know what happened.

And then you say, tell me when it's going in. They say, hey, it already happened. That's how I see your work. It's sort of like, oh, well, you know, we know Birbiglia, you know, he's funny, but we know that this is like a serious show also about X, Y, and Z. Tell me when it's, you know, when you're going to inject the part about, you know, having kids or whatever it is. Let us know. And when you're going to inject the part about you know having kids

or whatever it is let us know and then you're like well it actually already happened and it was 20 minutes ago and now hence the George Carlin thing now you've already crossed the line with me that's how I always feel when I've seen any of your that's how I feel about I'd say the musical analogy is melodies

you know like I feel like you're like the like in your bleachers album or your album with Taylor or like uh uh like it's the melody I think that is would be the joke equivalent yeah the melody is the part you can sing it's the part you can sing along to and have fun with. That's like the sugar around the pill kind of vibe where it's like you're there and there's this thing that is comforting you. It's almost like an anesthetic or something where it's like this thing is allowing you to be here

to work something out that you would not have come to work out otherwise. Yeah. And you never would. And you never would. You know, like that's like. And also it wouldn't be healthy to. It wouldn't be, you know, to sit around and talk about death is a very different experience than to sit around and joke about death.

Yeah. Because to sit around and talk about death, kind of like what we were talking about before, how you have to brush all these things under this seriousness rug, you know, it's like, there's such a seriousness to it that it almost like,

I mean, I'll never forget when we lost our sister, literally on the ride from the funeral to the cemetery, we were making jokes. I'll never forget that.

I mean, like, and I don't mean this in, like, a Herbie way, but, like, humor is so baked into all these experiences. And when you try to get serious, it almost, like, just becomes funnier. It's like all the jokes you're making, like, the whole world around it is bizarre and hilarious. Yeah. Truly. And the most bizarre, hilarious thing is the fact that when it's all done,

we're expected to just like have lunch. Yes, exactly. It would be like, we're going to do the ropes course, then we're going to like fling you from one end to another, and then when you get there, you just read. You just read as soon as you get there. It's like we're all like spinning. Okay.

So I have another, I have a few more jokes. Please, hit me. Okay. Egyptians got buried in pyramids with their pets and their servants. They say you can't take it with you, but the Egyptians tried. The modern equivalent would be if you were a lawyer and you were like, I'd like to be buried with my paralegal Susan and my parakeet Walnuts.

And everyone's like, Susan's alive. And the way, this speaks to something you were saying earlier, the way we treat our dead is a very half-baked plan. Like it's held up to no scrutiny whatsoever. half-baked plan. Like, it's held up to no scrutiny whatsoever. People who are embalmed

do not look good. I know, like, I'm sorry, I know this isn't the time, but to me, he looks puffy. Well, hold on, you're touching on something really great here, which is that because death is so serious,

there's no oversight in the industry. No one's like, the coffin wasn't, you know, $9,000 for some plywood, of course, of course. You know, it's like no one is... There's no oversight. Yeah. Secretly, the funniest part of that joke to me was, but the Egyptians did.

They did. They actually did they did they actually did yeah they did um it's not like our final image of the person ends up being a positive one it almost reminds us of the negative aspects of the person it's like he always had this empty look in his eye and he did have a double chin not that I'm judging it uh yeah the funeral is absurd the funeral is insane it's like you have the trauma and sadness of losing someone and then it's almost like before you can even deal with the grief

you have to get over the trauma of the literal funeral yes that's right um 450 people a year die falling out of bed and that seems like an awful way to go you're lying there thinking this is nice but i should really get up and start my day i mean what's the worst thing that could happen 150 people per year are killed by coconuts falling on their heads. My only question is, do you eat the coconut?

I mean, it is ripe. And you're ripe. You and the coconut are both ripe. I mean, you could eat both of you, but you could definitely eat the coconut. And at the eulogy, you could be like, Nancy would have wanted us to eat the coconut. That's why we loved her,

and that's why we also love the coconut. We're going to hand out pieces of the coconut right now because it just feels right. This is what I did. The coconut's ripe. Okay, so the coconut one feels like a thumbs up. This is huge. Huge.

Here's my last one. And by the way, thanks for working on these with me because it's a huge help. I can't even tell you how huge of a help it is. I will say that the coconut joke is an all-timer. Oh, that's interesting. An all-timer because the idea...

You did a masterful thing in there, which I think is a deeper metaphor about your entire death show, is someone dies. And then within two seconds we are more attached to the coconut. Oh, that's interesting. And we're completely interested to the coconut. Oh, that's interesting. And we're completely interested in the coconut.

And you also pointed something out, which is true, which I never considered, which is that it fell because it was ripe. It was ripe. And there's an incredibly amazing metaphor there, which is that 150 or 450, whatever, I think what you're injecting into people is that all these people have to die every year simply because of the fucking circle of life of coconuts being ripe. Yeah.

Wow. That's so helpful. It's a huge bit. You know, by the way, and that actually brings me full circle before I tell you my last joke, to our friendship. You're not a comedian. I actually think that one of the great things that I value so much and I appreciate about our friendship so much is that you're so encouraging of what I'm doing as I'm doing it. And I feel like I try to do that in return. I appreciate that.

And that's like how I feel when I'm producing things, which is like, nobody feels seen while they're making something. And if you can see something that someone's making, then there's a really good chance like that. The idea won't get thrown out and go really grow. That's like, that's everything in this. Before we finish Jack, I just want to just get this, a vocal record of you just saying that,

that we have the right to use this podcast and your name and likeness and perpetuity in any planet found in the future, any universe, any time zone. If you could just say that quickly before we go any further. What's that? This was all off the record. This is all off the record? That's the flip. That's the flip. Now I get to sue you.

Oh, I'm going to sue you first. That's the flip. Now I get to sue you. By the way, I'm going to sue you right back. Maybe we'll be at a point where we're meeting at the dining room. We'll both have a decent amount of work on our faces done. We'll think that we look good. We look insane. And we'll have a couple lawsuits cooking, and we'll just be having the same conversations about trying to make work. That would be great. That would be a great life. The final thing we do on the show is working it out for our cause.

And it's, um, and is there a nonprofit? I feel like, I mean, I don't want to be presumptuous, but I feel like with all the work that you do for the Ally Coalition, I feel like, and I've done your benefit over the years for the Ally Coalition a lot of times, I feel like we should give it to that organization. Yeah, I would love to. I appreciate that.

And for anyone who doesn't know, it's an organization that gives money directly towards homeless LGBTQ youth shelters, which are a huge issue in the country, has been for a long time, a really underserved one. And all of our money goes to really specific needs like a fridge or a bed or toiletries. So it's a completely direct way to get money there. It's an extraordinary organization. A completely

disproportionate amount of youth in shelters are members of the LGBTQ plus community. And that's one of the things I've learned from doing your benefit over the years is understanding that aspect of it. And so it's such a worthy cause. And so I'm going to donate to them today. Thank you, Mike. And the

link will be in the show notes. Thank you for always doing the show. Of course, of course. And I made the joke the other day that my favorite memory of the show was when you were doing it at Town Hall and I had my Broadway show and I had to jog down to try to make it for my spot. And by the time I got there, I literally sprinted down 6th Avenue. By the time I got there, Taylor Swift was on stage.

Can I really quickly say that you were very sweaty and you looked a little disheveled? Yeah, I looked like hell. I mean, I don't usually look great and me after jogging for 20 minutes is not ideal. And

I said, Jack, I'm so sorry. I missed my spot. And you said, I'll put you on right after Taylor. And I said, you fool. I will not be on this show. And I did not you on right after Taylor and I said you fool I will not be on this show and I did not perform on that show and that's her power because no one follows Taylor she's the only person who's kept

Birbiglia off that stage that show has been incredible and I can't wait to do it in 21 we're going to be back with a fucking vengeance. Working it out because it's not done.

We're working it out because there's no hope. Wow. That was another episode of Working It Out with Jack Antonoff. You've got to follow Jack Antonoff on Instagram. I would say that's his platform of choice.

He is incredible. I mean, everything he does, I am completely impressed by. There's new music out this week from his band Bleachers. You should follow Bleachers as well. And I'm just thrilled for his new album and everything that he has in store. He's a maniac. He's a maniac of music. I'm so grateful for the stuff that he and I have done together and to just be a fan of his work.

Thank you for listening to our show today. Our producers are myself, along with Peter Salamone and Joseph Birbiglia. Consulting producer, Seth Barish. Sound mix by Kate Balinski. Associate producer, Mabel Lewis. Special thanks to my consigliere, Mike Berkowitz, as well as Marissa Hurwitz

and Josh Upfall. Special thanks to... Special thanks to Jack Antonoff, again, and Bleachers for their music, which is, of course, running through this entire episode and every episode of working it out.

As always a very special thanks to my wife, the poet J Hope Stein, our book, the new one is at your local bookstore. We're coming up on a year from the release of the new one. And as always, a special thanks to our daughter, Una,

who had a question today, who was a very significant question that had a really thoughtful answer from Jack Antonoff that he sculpted a little bit, but it was a thoughtful answer. She also created the radio fort for this show. Thanks most of all to you who are listening. If you like it, give it some stars, write a little user review, and as always, tell your friends. Maybe even tell your enemies. We're working it out.

See you next time, everybody.