Mike Birbiglia's Working It Out - 44. Sarah Silverman: A Hard Comedy Reset

Episode Date: June 14, 2021

Mike is a huge admirer of Sarah Silverman and in this episode Sarah brings jokes, stories, and answers to tough questions like, “Why do so many of our comedian friends die young?” Along the way they discuss “coke lyrics,” Sarah’s priceless memory of Joan Rivers, and a story from when Sarah was a kid that is so insane that you actually have to hear it. https://www.kiva.org/

Hey, everybody. We are back with a new episode of Working It Out. I could not be more excited about our guest today, Sarah Silverman, one of the great comedians of all time. If you don't know, a couple quick announcements. I'm playing some live shows in Red Bank, New Jersey. A couple tickets left. Westport, Connecticut. in Red Bank, New Jersey. A couple tickets left. Westport, Connecticut.

East Hampton, New York. Montauk, New York. Belmore, New York. Cape Cod, Massachusetts, where I saw my very first comedy show in the 90s. And then all of my fall tour dates are on Burbiggs.com. And sign up for the mailing list, burbiggs.com. But today we have Sarah Silverman, who is an Emmy Award-winning comedian, the host of the Sarah Silverman podcast, which I love, and you should subscribe to.

A bit of a warning about the episode. There's no topic unexplored with Sarah. She talks about very sensitive subjects. There's no topic unexplored with Sarah. She talks about very sensitive subjects, I think, extremely well. But if that's not what you're in the mood for today, this might not be the episode for you. But I love this episode. I have to say, we really get in deep. We do a lot of working out, and we dig into some stories that I found to be very unexpected. I hope you enjoy my episode, Sarah Silverman.

You know what's so interesting about podcasts, and particularly yours, is I love the podcast. And when I listen to it, I feel like I'm in a very lovely one-way conversation that I don't have to participate in. You know what I mean? Yeah. I'm like, I get all the insight, all the fun, all the comedy of Sarah Silverman. But I don't have the stress of being like, oh my God, I have to say something just as witty or thoughtful. I can just enjoy it. That's how I feel.

You know, because when I do have guests or when I've interviewed people, I enjoy it. But it's stressful because I want to serve them well. Sure. And selfishly, I don't want to, like, if I go, what do I want to do? It isn't, you know, I have, I think all of us as comics probably have that thing where we feel like a host, you know, like. Yeah. And so with any stranger on the street, I feel like a walk by an old person.

I was listening to your podcast. I walked by an old lady and I turned the sound off because in case she needed me for something. And I turned back and she looked a little, you know, like, I just feel like we're, we emotionally like feel responsible for people. So it's so nice to not you know yeah no it's funny I know what you mean like you as a comedian you feel like you have to support whatever is around you or what's happening at all times even what's so funny is you and I have this thing thing in common with politics we're like like both of us I think it would be our druthers that we don't get involved with politics but sometimes you're like, I have to.

I have to say something as a citizen. Yeah, I do feel that way. And it's so funny because I don't like necessarily, I really don't enjoy it. But I just, you know, like, you know, I remember that feeling when it's like something comes up on, you know, the news or on Twitter. And you go, oh, God, what am I going to say about this? And then you go, oh, nothing, what am I going to say about this? And then you go, oh, nothing. I don't know if I should say anything. Who the fuck do I think I am?

Who the fuck do I think I am? Yeah. But it's funny because I'm in awe of your podcast and of your whole comic career. Oh, goodness. Because I think of you as fearless. I'm like, wow, Sarah's talking about race. She's talking about gender.

She's talking about Israel. She's talking about hot-button things that when I see those topics, I'm like, I'm out. I'm out. I can't even go near it. A comic called me, like, I don't know, a couple years ago, and he was like, I feel like I'm supposed to speak out. And, you know, I don't do that in my comedy at all.

And I feel like guilty about it. And I don't know why he felt like he needed to come to me. And I was like, you're so needed. Like that's, it's so important, you know? And then in the most emergency situations, it's even more powerful. It's like when Jim Gaffigan went, fuck this president. Oh, I know. I know.

It was so powerful. Good for him. I think Jim was one of the people who actually made a difference in the election because people were like, oh, if Indiana Jim Gaffigan, who opens for the Pope, is saying this has gone too far yeah i think some people were like maybe it has yeah i don't like i i um i worry or i just i accept that to you know I'm kind of speaking to the choir and like, to me, that's just like, there's no power in that. I mean, not to put down what I do, but you know what I mean?

There's like, you know, on the podcast I was listening to just now, you with Jack Antonoff, I'm going to ruin this, but you said something like, Antonoff, I'm going to ruin this, but you said something like, we all want to provoke, but we don't want to get provoked until we're provoked. Yes, yes. And then I came home and I got like this thing from Smigel and it had a little note on it. One of the great comedy writers of all time

from Conan and SNL, you know, tons of amazing stuff. Definitely from Michelle, his wife, because it was like candles and chocolates, like a thank you note or something. But it had this little like kind of fortune cookie thing on it. It says, we find comfort among those who agree with us, growth among those who don't. And between those two things, like that like that you know like from hearing that on your podcast and then that I was like oh it's you know it's so true and it's more powerful you know it's it's just more powerful when you you know when when something like when Gaffigan has hit a limit and he you know he speaks to an audience that is so wide. You know, that's why, like, when Stern started talking politics, it was, it's, to me, it's so powerful because his audience is everyone, you know.

Yes. Well, it's funny because, like, you know, Chappelle gets in trouble with certain journalists and people on Twitter and stuff like that. And I go like, Chappelle, as a comedian, and I watch him, I just go, no, this person is intentionally provoking you so that you think about it more and differently. He's actually not telling you how to think. No.

Like definitively. He's definitively not telling you how to think. No. Like definitively. He's definitively not telling you how to think. More often than not, I would say Chappelle shows you 10 different ways to think about the same issue. He's such a professor. He's like a history professor that blows your mind, you know, like, and yeah, you can pick apart, I mean, it's the whole baby with the bathwater thing. It's like, well, he said this one thing. And, you know, it's like, he said tons of things that bummed me out. Of course. Same with Doug Stanhope, by the way.

One of my favorite comics of all time. And it's like, I would never stand behind like a million things he said. 100%. Bill Burr. You know, they're all like genius and you don't always agree with them. And, like, that's supposed to be how it is. And by the way, like, you know who else I don't agree with all the stuff he says? It's, like, Richard Pryor.

Yeah. George Carlin. Lenny Bruce. Like, I'm talking about, like, some of these people who are icons, these people who we decided are the greatest of all time, most of the stuff they say, we would not agree with. You're not supposed to agree with comedians.

Yeah. The fact that someone might be in search of a comedian that they agree with across the board is like the most boring Snoresville endeavor. It's such a strange... so here's what I,

this is an experiment, and I don't know if this will work, but I thought it's like, okay, so I was going to say your introduction, and then I'm just going to say, if you had to introduce yourself, what would you say? So I wrote, today we were lucky to be joined by one of the best comedians to pick up a microphone in all of history.

Sarah Silverman is a comedian and actor who has written and performed many comedy specials. She has won two Emmys among countless other awards. I love her podcast that's called the Sarah Silverman Podcast. Here it is. And so that was my introduction. What would your introduction of yourself be? I think it would be the same. Okay.

I don't know. You ever have that, though, where you go on something and you're like, oh, that's the introduction? Really? You know, sometimes I look back at the things I thought were funny. And it's not that I don't think they're funny. I mean, sometimes it is. But it's like I can't believe how gross I am. But in the moment, I don't feel gross because I don't have, I think my mom had a very visual mind. So if anything gross or, you know, anything like she

would just be like, oh God, I have a very visual mind and it bummed her out. And I think I have the opposite problem because I, you know, I remember things. There was a, I don't even want to say it, but I want to tell you. But like for a little while, I would have people, you know, introduce me. People, you know, introduce me. Like at Largo or something, I'd have the person say, this next comedian farts when she comes. Oh my God, no. Here's Sarah Zobrin. Which is just the grossest thing I could ever think,

that I could think of. And then I would come on kind of embarrassed and horrified. And then I would say um i told him say anything one of the things that i feel like nobody ever talks about in comedy journalism but it's a truism it's a fact is that that a lot of the great comedians of all time, Pryor, Chris Rock, Chappelle, and you, all started young. You started doing stand-up

when you were 17. But I've almost never heard people talk about it as a data point about comedy. And I'm curious, with you, what caused you to be like, I'm going to just go to an open mic. I'm just going to go do this.

I, it always was the plan. I just, I saw that stand-up comedy existed. And I knew that that was, you know, it's one of those lucky things. Like I've grown up with friends who are searching and who am I? And that's the one gift I've always had is I've just, I've been a comedian since third grade.

You know, I just, that was, I just never occurred to me to do anything else other than like musical theater. Was there anyone in your life who was like oh and by the way you you underplay how talented of a singer and songwriter and musician that you are you were singing a thing on your podcast the other day that was the barbara streisand um barry Barry Gibbs song and it was good like legitimately I'm like Sarah's voice is like really good

for a comedian it's very good but I mean if I went out and said I'm a singer you'd be like it was the song Guilty yeah my boyfriend Rory can't stop listening to it can climb any mountain yeah our love can climb

any mountain really? our love can beat up your love our love's dad can beat up your love's dad. It's a highway in the sky? A highway in the sky. These lyrics make no sense. No, they're such coke lyrics, I would say.

They're not... Yes. They're not like acid lyrics or like mushroom lyrics or weed lyrics. They're like Coke lyrics. That's a big difference between rock and roll, I think, and comedy, which is we work with crowds and we see what works, what sticks. And musicians just work in the studio and there can be Coke and they're drugged up and whatever. And sometimes the shit they come out with is genius.

And there can be coke and they're drugged up and whatever. And sometimes the shit they come out with is genius. And sometimes you're like, huh, that lyric is actually sort of terrible, but it's catchy. Well, yeah, but there's maybe something more true about it in that, like, it's very easy for a comedian to be, like, seduced by an audience who's like, go for the easy joke. We want it. We want it. Yes, yes. Okay.

You know, when you get rewarded for it and they give you a treat. And, you know, so, I mean, I get stubborn with jokes that don't work. And I just, I go, it's good. And then, you know, maybe like two years later, I'll be like, no, it wasn't good. You know, but it's way too long. I try it way too long. You know, I'm a really slow honer. Years, when I was first starting out,

I was opening for Jake Johansson. He gave me this piece of advice about those types of jokes. And Jake Johansson is one of my favorite comics of all time. I mean, yeah, that's just here. You talk about Jake Johansson. There's such DNA there, you time I mean yeah that's just here you talk about Jake Johansson there's such DNA there you know of just oh my gosh yeah yeah I'm of course that's some of all my influences definitely he's but I when I opened for him I couldn't believe it and I was so excited and I was like I this joke I think is funny but I can't I can't get the audience to agree with me that it's funny. And he said this thing that was so smart that I've taken to this very day.

He said, well, you know, sometimes you're not communicating what's in your brain. And you need to figure out how to communicate what's in your brain to the audience. Yes. Yeah, like it was literally this bit. And this is, I mean, this is over 20 years ago. It was literally this bit about how flies, this is so stupid, I'm so embarrassed to even say, how flies, you know, eat shit, you know, and like, we should appreciate flies so much because they're not picky, you know, they eat our shit. Like it's so nice, you know?

And the audience, the audience wasn't laughing. And, and Jake goes, well, I think it's funny. Like maybe if you became the fly, like, like, like I'll even eat the shit. You want the shit? I'll eat the shit. You know? And I, and then I did it like that and it worked. And, and it was like, it was one of those things where I was like, oh, that's interesting.

It's like, you just have to figure out how to translate what's in your brain to an audience. That's so exciting. I mean, I feel it when I watch Tig too, where you go, oh my God, she's covered every angle of this. And then there's, oh, I forgot, there's a whole underside. Now she's doing it from this angle. Like it's, you know, I'll write a line and that's it.

It's the line. And I go, am I lazy? Like, why aren't I? And if I push myself, I'll find more. But, you know, it's funny when you said something about napping. You know, I'm always shocked when people think that I do a lot because for me, like anything I do is between naps. Like I'm, I hoard sleep. Like I think I can bank them. How would you compare, so you go on stage at 17,

and you probably wrote down, you probably said what was in your notebook or something. Yeah. Maybe, I don't know. But how would you compare your process when you were 17, or working the cellar, you're 17, 18, 19, 20, to now? How do you approach the writing process now differently? Or is it the same? I think the, gee, I don't know.

I never broke it down. It's so interesting to listen to your podcast because you break it all down and it's, as a comedian, I'm like learning so much, you know, because you don't. That's ridiculous. You don't, like, I never think about the process. If I, you know, if I force myself to write, it's always fruitful. If I force myself to listen back, it's always fruitful.

But it's like putting on your sneakers is the hardest part to working out. You know, it's like just press play and listen back. Why is this so hard to do? Listen back to your show from the night before. Yes, right, right. Yourself. Yeah, yeah, totally. It took me years and years and years before I recorded myself

because it's like that Heisenberg principle. It really affected me. Just to know that I was recording got in my head. And it's like that Heisenberg principle. Like, it really affected me. Like, just to know that I was recording got in my head. And it's just me. Like, no one will ever hear it. It's just for me. And it takes so long to just do it and not think about that mechanical observer in the room. There's all these people watching.

I don't know why it should fuck with your head that you're recording. But it did for a while. And then when I first started recording, I never listened to it back. Yeah. But now I do more. This is a unique question that I'm almost afraid to ask

because it's so awkward of a thing, but I'm like, who else could answer something like this? How come so many of our comedian friends die? Like, I think about this all the time. I do too. We lost Mitch Hedberg. We lost Gary Shandling. We lost Patrice.

I mean, I could name, Greg Giraldo, I could name people all day. And I'm going like, what is happening? Brody, Stevens? Brody. Stevens. Brody. Harris Whittles. I mean, just, it's not.

It's just, comics just, you know, I mean, I really guess this covers all the bases. It's like, comics die young. Yeah. Or they live forever. Or they live forever. Or they live forever, yes. You know, it's like, you're Mel Brooks. Like Carl Reiner or something, yeah. Yeah, well, may he rest in peace.

But it's like, even when Carl Reiner or Joan Rivers died, it felt like too soon. No, I know. You know, they were, like, I mean, Joan was like, she was constantly, people are. You know, they were like, I mean, Joan was like, she was constantly, people are really like reinventing herself, always writing, always. I mean, she was a comics comic.

I saw Joan, I saw Joan like a couple of years before she passed and she was a beast of a standup comedian, writing new material, playing clubs. I almost, one of the best comedians I've ever seen in my whole life. At the end of her life. Unbelievable.

And she died from a, you know, like she shouldn't have died. Like she died from a weird thing. Like a surgery. Complication, yeah. But like, and one thing she said that I find so inspiring is she didn't feel like she hit her stride in stand-up until she was in her 70s.

Wow. And I love that. I've never heard that. That's amazing. Yeah. You know? I love that, too. I love that, too, because I always think about that.

I'm like, well, you know, it's a young person's game. And maybe at a certain point I become irrelevant or whatever it is. But it's like, no, it doesn't have to be that way. You look at Joan Rivers, she never became irrelevant. No, she was always changing. I mean, she was always consistent. But like, you know, she was this, can we talk, you know, with the long clap? You know, and then she was like, she basically started for better or for worse like what are you wearing who are you wearing like the red carpet became a thing like designers yeah she's like

actually to credit for massive success of like designers and the marriage of that and is that true i don't know i made that up i'm sure. You know, she had a web series like 20 years ago. Yeah, yeah. In bed with Joan. And I did it. So you have to come out of a closet and then you lie in bed with her. And it's at her room, her bedroom, bathroom in her daughter's house. Oh, wow. room her bedroom bathroom in her daughter's house and so I went in the closet and there was this just big ugly fake fur gray like elephant gray coat in there and I said Joan this is the ugliest

coat I've ever seen in my life and she goes it's not ugly it's fabulous it's top shop you know like she's so like cutting edge. And then, and all I said was, this is the ugliest coat. I mean, and then when I left, she made me take it. And. Oh, that's funny. I actually gave it to my stepmother who loves it. But I made her, you know, I said,

you can't throw away what's in the pockets because the pockets were just filled with tissues and hard candy. Oh, my gosh. That's so funny. Of course it is. Of course it is. Wait, so I'm sorry I even cut you off. So it's like, why do comedians die young? I mean, there's probably some kind of adjacentness with musicians as well, but I do think there's, you know, is this tread upon too much?

Comedians tend to deal with depression, the darkest corners of humanity. And, you know, a lot of comedians have trauma that is either dealt with or not dealt with or dealt with or self-medicated. Or, you know, it's like it's either it's a lot of suicide, a lot of drug overdose. Yeah. yep. A lot of, and it's all, you know, I could maybe argue it the other side of this, but I always feel like it's so whimsical, you know, like, that's why, you know, you should always put off suicide for tomorrow. You know, that's like kind of my survival skill is like,

yeah, we have dark thoughts and, you know, I've definitely gotten to a place where I know even in my darkest moments that it will pass,

which is like a huge achievement for me. You know what I mean? Because if you know it's going to pass, then you can put it off for tomorrow. If you put it off for tomorrow,

it's, tomorrow never comes. So, you know, for tomorrow, it's, tomorrow never comes. So, you know, but like, there's something so whimsical. And that's why I just think like, sometimes, you know, I do think, you know, you know, maybe I should get a gun and learn how to use it, especially in the past, you know, four or five years. You know, I'm like, I understand the feeling that, you know, like white nationalists had when Obama was elected, where it was like when Trump was elected, I was like, I need to, do I need to protect myself if there, you know, the, you know,

the, like, if there's a war with the government or, you know, like hoard cans of beans or whatever, I'm like, you know, like hoard cans of beans or whatever. I'm like, you know, there's a moment where I have that. And then I go like, just comics should never have a gun. I mean, own a gun. I just because we're whimsical creatures and we suffer depression and like, there's no way I wouldn't blow my brains out on some random moment, you know? We shouldn't have guns and we shouldn't have Twitter.

Yeah, exactly. So this is called the slow round. And so it's sort of like memory questions and things, but one of them, and it's sort of what we were talking about before, but it's like, what's the best piece of advice that anyone's ever given you that you used? Two things come jump to mind, but, you know, one is Gary Shandling kind of, I don't know how he said it, but he really taught me how to not be afraid of the in-between the words, the quiet moments, and to use them as much as words.

That is an amazing piece of advice. And then that's a comedy thing. And then my mom once said, like, you know, sometimes I was in depression, and she said, you know, sometimes the bravest, I was in depression and, and she said, you know, sometimes the bravest thing you can do is just exist. Yeah. And, um, I think about that too, you know, that's another beautiful one. It is. And it's, um, it could be applied to comedy as well. You know, well, I think those two pieces of advice are very interrelated. Yeah. Yeah. Because, pieces of advice are very interrelated.

Yeah. Yeah. Because the silence on stage is just existing. Boom. Look at you. Well, because my director, Seth, and I talk about this all the time because, you know, in my solo shows, like, I have moments where it's like I say things that are dramatic. In my last show, I go,

I get why dads leave. And it's like, I'm not going to leave, but I get it, you know? And, like, there has to be silence there. You can't not exist in that with the audience because it's a lot. Yeah. And it's so interesting how, when you're aware of it,

Interesting how, when you're aware of it, how uncomfortable people are with. Like my dad, when we talk on the, that's why I like doing FaceTime with my dad, because in the quiet moments, he's not as anxious. Yeah. We can see each other. But I mean, when we're on the phone, it's so funny. If there is a moment of quiet, he's like, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um. Oh my gosh. Like a kid, you know?

And it has to be because that's just a terror of the idea of being in just a quiet moment. Yeah, of course. of being in just a quiet moment. Yeah, of course. Do you have a memory from childhood that you think about sometimes, but it's actually not a bit or a story because it's just a memory? It's so interesting because I feel like

I always want to talk about trauma or shouldn't we be laughing? But when I was listening to your podcast, you guys were talking about both having cancer. Yes. Well, Jack, it was Jack Antonoff. It was his sister who had cancer, and I had cancer. Right, right, right.

Sorry. Yeah, right. You both had experiences. Yeah, dealt with it, yeah. But it's so interesting that, because one thing I learned actually, just on my own, having nothing to do with Patton, but when Patton's first wife died,

and he had this very young daughter, I, as soon as I found out, I started Googling that. Like how to handle, why it's my job, but I was like, yeah, how do you handle that? You know, like whatever. And just learning about how trauma when you're young, you relive it at every stage of development, you know? So there's all these things that happen to us as kids

and we keep, if we're lucky enough to be still keeping developing, having growth spurts, you know, like we're dealing with it again. And it's like, it's been really odd, you know, just, and when you said that there's something about having an experience alone, I don't, there's no way to make this funny, but it would be cool to. Not at all. But you can make anything funny.

But just to take that out of it, but there's, you know how you have memories and you're like, I have no collaborators of this memory. I was alone in this. You know, and so, you know.

No one can corroborate the truth of what I'm saying, except that I was there. Right. And I know it happened, but did it happen? Or like, how are my memories? You know, I mean, so many memories are formed from seeing pictures. You know what I mean? Like, oh yeah, that happened. I remember.

Yeah. Or, but there are things, you know, so, and then I was thinking about how, you know, this is a different thing, but like there's been this thing that keeps coming back lately for me, which was when I was 13. I was really small for my age. And I went to visit my sister who was at Berkeley summer school. And so I was alone, like, in the dorm. I made friends, you know what I mean? I was, like, little, but I was, like, social.

Yeah. The guy who lived in the dorm room next to her, all I remember about him was that his name was Les, and he had blonde hair. And looking back, he was clearly on drugs. Yeah. or something.

And I would hang out with him. And one day, he was weird. He must have been on a crazy drug or something. And he took me by my ankles and held me out a 17-story window. No. And I was sure that I was not going to die. No, no. And I could see just a whole length of a skyscraper underneath me,

and he wouldn't pull me back in unless I screamed enough. I mean, I was screaming. I mean, I was screaming. This is insane. The story is unbelievable. Yeah, but I was screaming. I mean, I was screaming. This is insane. The story is unbelievable. Yeah, but I was, you know, and it's so funny because I don't remember, like, telling my parents or, you know, like. Right, right. And over the years, I keep coming back to it.

And I try all these different search words to find, like, a guy named Les who was in Berkeley in this year. Because I want to know if he's alive. I want to know, like I, he's the only person I share this with, even though he's my like assaulter, you know. I just like, I have such a deep desire to like find him, you know, like, but why? I don't know. I just like, yeah. That is, so did you tell anyone? I don't know.

You know, it's. Did you tell your sister? Yeah. Is it Laura? Yeah, Laura. Wow. So Laura knows. Yeah.

That's such a strange thing. So Lauren knows. Yeah. That's such a strange thing. Because I would say, do you ever talk to her about it? Yeah, but no, I need to talk to her about it. It's just such a weird thing because it was fine. It was a moment.

But it was like I faced my mortality in such a real way, you know? That is so extreme. But I, and I just didn't even think about it, like, after. And he also gave me porn for the plane. Oh, my gosh. And so, like, I was 13. I was a young 13. Like, I looked like I was nine. And I had all this porn on the plane like

magazines and that got me I mean clearly obviously like it embedded in me you know like so you that was in Berkeley California yeah so you were you're flying back to New Hampshire with porn. Yeah, with porn. And you're 13. Yeah. That is amazing. It is so, yeah. Like playgirls, you know, or like weird. Yeah.

Such a weird, like, who is that person? He was so clearly, like, damaged and he needed to not be alone with it. And then he left me alone with it, you know? Yeah. But I, just going back to, I don't know why I brought it up other than I think comics have like maybe some kind of rare trauma and that like their survival, I would say a hundred percent, you know, a hundred percent of comics are, became funny because it was their means of survival in some way, right? I mean, did you become funny? Like, why did you become funny? What were you surviving that made you funny?

I think it was, I mean, for me personally, it was like seeing... I think it was, I mean, for me personally, it was like seeing, I think for me personally, it was keeping things light in the family when there was a lot of shouting and things like that. And I think that that was my coping mechanism. Yeah. And then I think as I got into my 20s and 30s, and I became a comedian, I became more comfortable with the idea of like opening up about things. And like, with Sleepwalk With Me, I was able to talk about this traumatic thing of jumping through a second story window. And what I found was similar to your being hung from a 17 floor window is like, those stories that you think that you people won't understand uh thousands of people

will go i have something just like that yeah and and therein lies the catharsis i think of comedy so like when you say to me like like i don't know how this is funny to me like hearing that story i'm like you have to put that in your next show right well what's the joke version mike what's the joke what's the joke i don't know I don't know. I don't know. But I don't know yet, but, like, I know for sure that there's a hundred jokes for that. So Gary Gullman was on the podcast, and he recommended this Anne Lamott book, which is called Bird by Bird, which I'm reading right now.

And it's all about writing. And Bird by Bird is the reference to, I think it was like her brother was writing a term paper. And he waited until the last day to write the whole thing. And he's freaking out. And he says to his dad, like something to the effect of like, how am like how am i gonna do how am i gonna write this term paper about birds and the dad says bird by bird and i read it because gary gary sent it you know he mentioned it and i love this book but she has an exercise that i love and and I'll ask you this question, which is like, do you remember eating lunch in middle school or grade school or any lunch? Can you describe a lunch you ate as a kid?

My freshman year of high school, which I, that was a deep into depression. I actually missed three months of it and all I ate were pinwheels. Oh my gosh, pinwheels. Yeah, like I have a total association with depression and pinwheels. Oh my God, I love pinwheels. But at school, I would have a bagel and cream cheese. This is a New Hampshire show. It was like, not like the bagel

I learned could exist. But like, a bagel and cream. It's like a Lender's bagel. That's what, I grew up on Lender's bagels. I loved Lender's bagels.

This was like the saran wrapped, like, it just takes like round bread. Yes. And, you know, but anyway, a bagel and cream cheese

and these potato chips that should not be sold in schools called like munchos or munchies. Yes, munchos. They're so good, but they're just only fried. There's no actual food. They're just garbage. Fried. Yeah. Fried nothing.

Yeah. So good. Deep fried nothing. Like how little potato is in a mancho? Very little. Well, that's like, Roy will go like, oh, have you ever had fried blah, blah, blah? They're so good.

I go, yeah, fried anything. Fried, you know, diarrhea is delicious. It's like the fried part. Fried diarrhea is delicious. I don't know. You know, it's just like anything fried is yummy. Everyone acts like, have you ever had fried pickles? Oh, my God.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, of course it's delicious. Yeah, you're just eating the fried thing. Yeah. Yeah, that's why people, whenever people go like, oh, I love the calamari. It's like, you mean just a fried thing? Yeah. You know, like that's all calamari is.

Everything is just fries. Everything fried is fries. So if you say you like fried calamari, you're just saying you like fries. And I have no judgment for it, but you like fries. Just admit it. Right. Like, do you love potatoes? No, you just, you like fried, a fried thing.

Yes. I do like a fried thing. Yes. I do like potatoes, though. So you remember eating munchos and a lender's bagel? I have so many. I don't even want to tell you the truth. The first thing that came to my mind was the big bully at my high school could not, and this is just so, such a like micro of like the macro of like people so angry at how you live your life because they're terrified of how they live their, you know, they're so conformist in how they, but the big bully in our school, um, couldn't get his head around

that I was a vegetarian, you know, like I haven't eaten meat since I was seven. And, you know, he, it made, it enraged him and he had his thugs pin me down in the lunchroom. No. And he shoved meat down my mouth. You've got to be kidding me. No way. I know. So I have really horrific stories. That's a crazy story.

It really is like, it was felt violating in a, you know, I mean, you're getting an orifice violated basically. Oh my gosh. But it's so funny because I wrote about it in my book,

and then I heard from him. I didn't change his name or anything. I didn't think about it. And I heard from him, and I went, oh, no, he's, like, going to sue me or something. And he just was excited that he got mentioned in a book. Unreal. Like, he couldn't— there was nothing in like, he looked like looking back or there was no.

Yeah. Zero reflection. Yeah, yeah. Nothing. Nothing. Oh, gosh. Cannot see inward. Just his survival, his survival is just completely the inability to look inward and be like,

well, that was fucked up. No, he just couldn't believe it. He's like, oh my God, my name's in a book. Oh my gosh. What was it? Was there ever, were you ever in your life an inauthentic version of yourself? Absolutely.

I mean, do you have an example of that like what's your example of so for me is like when i was in high school i went through this period of time where i was going to like outdoor rock and roll concerts and i would wear a cowboy hat like i and and i literally thought it was my identity i was like i figured out who i am i'm cowboy hat guy oh oh my god I love that so much it's so sad yeah but it's sad if you were still cowboy hat guy or you were like now you've now you're, parrot on your shoulder guy or, like, you know. Right, right. Who am I? Like, I think everyone goes, who am I?

But when they answer it with, like, an affectation, they're kind of missing the point. You know, like, I'm going to be the guy that has a cane. You know, like, but that said, if you like walking around with a cane or a walking stick and you go, well, I don't want to be a guy who walks around with a walking stick, then I just like it. Well, then if you don't walk around with your walking stick, you're denying like— Who you are. Right. Like, oh, God, I'm wearing these overalls all the time. It's not even cool.

Or like overalls are really hip right now, but like I'm wearing them because they have meaning to me. They were my mom's, but like I don't want people to think that I'm wearing them because it's like the style. It's like, what? Stop thinking about it. Like, why are you?

I mean, we all think about other people's perceptions, you know, and that's a part of like just humanity, probably from the beginning of time, you know, and that's a part of like just humanity, probably from the beginning of time, you know, like these sandals look good with this robe or, you know, whatever. But again, I don't remember how I started this sentence or where I was going. Can you think of like in high school or middle school or anything where you were like trying to fit in

and you were affecting a thing that actually in hindsight wasn't really you? Or was there a group that wouldn't let you in? Like you desperately wanted to be a part of someone else's group? I was accepted by all in a, I stayed peripheral. You know what I mean? Like no one had a problem with me. Everyone liked me. I stayed on the sides, you know what i mean like yeah no one had a problem with me everyone like me i stayed on the sides you know it wasn't on the center of any group i like you know yeah but um i i i changed schools um you know i went through like this big depression in high school and freshman year.

And then sophomore year, my dad sent me to this like prep school. And I ended up loving it. And like I learned like critical thinking there. Like it was like college. You know, I never went to college, but this was like college. Like it was really great. And like the smart kids were cool, you know, and never went to college, but this was like college. Like it was really great. And like the smart kids were cool, you know, and stuff like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But I came from a high school that was like tough kid, you know. There was a smoking lounge for the students at the high school I came from, you know. Oh, my gosh. And so it was like a tough, you know, and I had heard a joke that I don't think I really understood, but, you know, I repeated it when I went to this new school and like I'm trying to get laughs and I didn't even understand. You know, I go, oh, there's, it was something a guy said to me, and I thought it was funny, but I didn't understand why. So then I go to this new school, and I go, oh, nice to meet you. Someone, this girl, Cynthia, who I kind of knew, introduced me to a girl named Sabrina.

It was very nice. And I go, there's flies everywhere. Close your legs. Oh, my gosh. And I mean, I didn't even understand what it was. I didn't know i just knew it was a joke and she was horrified and it was cynthia was like not cool and i oh my god i was just i was devastated and i i thought it was supposed to you know i didn't understand it really

i mean listen my i loved jokes growing up and my dad was like a funny guy, but he was a scary guy too. He had like a temper, but when he was funny, he was the funniest. And, you know, like he gave me a joke book. I had to go to camp every year. And like as the summer approached, it was so scary because, you know, camp was salvation for my parents. But for me, it was a scary because camp was salvation for my parents. But for me, it was a nightmare because I was a bedwetter. So it was sleepover camp since I was six, and I was the kid that smelled like piss. And so the humiliation of comedy was just not daunting to me after that lived experience.

So my dad knew I liked jokes. So he goes, well, I'm going to give you a joke book to bring to camp. And I mean, I was like eight or nine or, and it was like truly tasteless jokes too. Oh my gosh. And I remember the first joke in it was like a paragraph, but it was like, you know, Little Red Riding Hood, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then the big bad wolf catches her and says, I'm going to eat you. And Little Red Riding Hood says, eat, eat, eat. Doesn't anybody fuck anymore? And I was like, what does this mean? You know,

I was such a little kid and I could read. You know, I had learned to read. So like my dad gave me a joke book. And I was like, I couldn't make sense of this joke. And it was like one of those things where. How old? How old are you? I was like nine. Oh my gosh.

You know, he just picked up a book and said jokes. I don't see anyone's book around here anymore. So it's so funny because it was another example of the counselors thought it was hilarious. And just like when my dad would teach me swears when I was little, like a toddler, and I experienced grownups, I would say swears. And grownups would give me this like wild approval despite themselves. And then with the counselors at camp I would get have this thing too and it so I mean I really became like addicted to like shock value because that's where I got like approval but I didn't understand it and and so it's so funny just like we talk about how trauma you know or um grief you know for a kid it's like

they revisited at every stage of development so does like these things where i'm like at a traffic light in you know my 30s and then remember that joke and go jesus christ like what was he thinking you know? I have a couple jokes that I want to run by you. One of them is sometimes I feel like I need a hard reset, which is the action you do to your laptop or your phone, but there's no obvious way for a human to do it. But maybe if you held one finger on your forehead

and another on your butt at the same time, and it made a bing sound, and then you fall asleep for 30 seconds, and then your fingers and toes do a little dance, and then you're back in business. Either that or drugs. That was my brother Joe's joke. Either that or drugs. That's so good. That's so visceral.

Like, I want that to work. I know. Pushing your forehead, pushing your butt. Are you pushing your butt right now? No, it's next to my butt, but I can do my butt. I am pushing my butt. All right. All right, we're back.

I was, you know, you were doing all your, or some death. Your next show is going to be about death. Yeah, on the Jack Antonoff episode, yeah. So you were doing, yeah, and it is really cool. And I wrote a terrible tag, but where did I put it? It was something about embalming, you know, it was like the, you know, embalming shaming. Embalming shaming, yes. You know, like, oh, my God, look how much work she had done. You know, like, oh my God, she, look how much work she had done. You

know, like she had so much work done. That's funny. That's, that's, that's a good tag. Do you, do you have bits that you want to run by me? Well, here's something that like, it's actually something from a long time ago. But I was saying, you know, oh, my God, I don't know how to do this. But I was like, I'm going to blow your minds right now. Remember that childhood poem, Milk, Milk, Lemonade, Round the Corner Fudge is Made? Yeah. Fudge is shit. Oh, my God.

So anyway, that's all it is. I go, you're not going to believe it. Fudge is shit. But part of me wants to be like, wake up, you fucking sheep. Fudge is shit. But I'm not really like, I don't really do like a character anymore. But instead I was just like, God, if Eddie Pepitone had this joke, it would be 10 brilliant minutes.

Or like if Todd Glass did this, it would go like a thousand different directions. But I just have the one line, you know, or like. Milk, milk, lemonade. But not everyone grew up with that. But it's milk. Milk is the boobs, right? Yeah. And then peeing is the lemonade.

Yeah. And around the corner is your butt, which is fudge is poop. Fudge is shit. Yeah, but I... What's funny is I didn't even... I've heard that phrase a million times. I have never vocalized it until just now, what even the things are. That's what's amazing about language is like we don't even make the connections.

You're saying it as though the discovery is that fudge is shit. Mine is all make the connections. You're saying it as though the discovery is that fudge is shit. Mine is all of the things. I didn't know what any of the things that are in the phrase. Wake the fuck up. Fudge is shit. I can see it. They're tricking. It's like, what is it?

Soylent green is people. Yeah. Milk, milk. I was wondering, it just made me think, like, what if you opened a store called Milk, Milk Lemonade, and in the front you sold milk, and in the back you sold fudge. That sounds, and like people are just like, it's the greatest place. It's this little fudge shop in the back. Oh my gosh.

And they just never. It's so stupid. Oh, the fudge is amazing. You know, one joke that I've been, I have a whole chunk. It's just, it's way too much like Jewy, Hitler-y stuff. But there's one that just doesn't really work, but I'm like, I can't, I just won't give up on it. And it's, I don't know why. Okay.

But it's. That's good. Actually, Dave Rath told me this, but on the joke I say I looked at on Wikipedia, which then I did. why. Okay. But it's— That's good. Actually, Dave Rath told me this. But on the joke, I say I looked at Wikipedia, which then I did. But, you know, Jews are Hitler heads. We want to know everything there is to know about Hitler. Oh, my gosh. But I couldn't believe this was true.

I found this out. And this is true. Hitler, for years, molested his niece. Oh gosh. So then I go, now he's really canceled. And that does get a laugh. And then I go, um, but in his defense, um, you know, he's probably like, I just killed six million Jews. What am I going to do, not molest my niece? Oh, my God. This makes me happy. I mean, you know, and it gets kind of a, and then I go, what is it? Is it, there's, it's, you know, you hope that the comedy is more than the horror.

Yes, yes. But also, like, I'm telling myself, like, maybe it just needs a beat? Is that what's missing? No, I think that joke is pretty fully formed. I feel like it's, what am I not going to balance my list? I mean, it's so dark. It's very dark. But it's very funny.

I mean, it's very well written. I think even Hitler Heads is like a great premise because it's like, it is a good observation about how people do get in the weeds about like these people who are monsters from history and partly because it's their people who are affected. You know, if you're Jewish, your people were killed and mass murdered. People always like, the Jews really own the Holocaust, but it was like Catholics, Russians. Oh yeah, your people were killed and mass murdered. People always, like, the Jews really own the Holocaust,

but it was like Catholics, Russians. Oh, yeah, gay people. People are, yeah, yeah. People are disabled, yeah. No, I mean, it was horrible. Yeah, the Holocaust was horrible. Thank you for saying that. Somebody has to be brave around here.

You are so brave. No, but I'm trying to think if there's anything I could do to sort of, I'm trying to think if there's anything I could do to heighten that joke, because it's like, you know who gave me a tag? Because I've been closing with it,

which is, it does not merit. But I mean, it's not like I'm, I'm not headlining. I'm just doing like 15 minutes sets or whatever. So I'm like making myself do it, and I just end with it. And so then Patton was there, and he said, and he gave me this, which is, what am I going to do, not molest my niece? And then they go, hmm. And then I go, I'm actually pitching a movie to Pixar about a niece molesting Hitler joke that just wants to be a closer.

Oh my God. You know, and I just like, oh my God, I love that so much. Oh, that's funny. Oh gosh. Yeah. I don't even know. It's like, I'm trying to heighten that bit, but I'm like, it's so high. It's so heightened. I am tapping out of this joke, and then I'm going to tell you another joke. Okay. I'm tapping out because I'm incapable of heightening a joke that is that dark and heightened. I know, it's pretty...

What's wrong with me? What do I need? What am I looking for? I think the Hitler heads... I wish I had more for this, but I feel like there's potentially something where it comes back to you being like, you know, that's why I'm so obsessed with Hitler because, you know what I mean?

But I don't know the answer, but it comes full circle in some sense. Because it is like this marvel of like, it's like we're fascinated by Hitler because he was like a failed painter. And like you're saying, he molested his niece and he killed millions of people. It's like you can't even stop thinking about this person who's just so heinous i know it's interesting that it's like he infiltrates art in ways that were not his first choice you know what i mean but yeah that's very funny well i mean but i it, not even trying to be funny. Yeah, there's something there, but it's just like. I mean, that's maybe a funny joke too is like, I mean, Hitler wanted to be an artist and everybody knows that. And he did become an artist.

He's made so many movies. Yeah, that could be something. Do you have one last bit you want to throw into the mix? You know what? I'm having trouble getting to work, but it's not even, it's Neil Brennan gave me this tag, and it's so good,

but I don't know quite how to use it, which is I say, I ask Siri, because I was saying Jews are like one-fifth of 1% of the world. If you round down, there's zero of us. And I even asked Siri, I go, Siri, how many Jews are in the world?

And she said, too many. Oh, my God. And then he gave me the tag, Disable Location. Oh, my gosh. But I don't know exactly how to say it. Disable location. Yeah. That's really funny.

I asked Siri how many shoes in the world. It said too many. That is so funny. Oh, I know. I'll go, Siri, disable location. All right, so the final thing we do on the show is we donate to a cause that our guest thinks is doing a particularly good job, like a nonprofit or any organization. Gosh, there's so many and there's so many crucial things. But also something that I really love is called Kiva. And you're basically,

your donation is a loan for a small business. Oh, wow. Anywhere in the world, like globally. And you can like pick the area or you could just go wherever, you know. And that small business eventually makes the money back and gives it back and you reallocate it. Oh, wow.

And it's just like money that just keeps working for itself. That's incredible. Through small businesses. Yeah, it's cool. It's amazing. It's amazing. Well, I'm going to link to them in the show notes. I'm going to support them. for itself like through small businesses. That's incredible. Yeah, it's cool. It's amazing. Well, I'm going to link to them in the show notes.

I'm going to support them. Can't go wrong with Kiva. And I'm going to send people their way. And thanks, Sarah, for doing this. This is like dream come true, talking to you about comedy for a while. I know. And I hope we do it again sometime. It's so funny because I get into a mode with you,

specifically you, for some reason. Well, for an obvious reason, I think. But where I get, I'm in like earnest, sincere mode. And I go like, God, I just want to like be comics with him and fuck around and say dumb shit. But I just get, you're so earnest and warm. And then I like, I just want to match it. And then I, I'm not funny. I always feel like I'm not particularly funny because I, I'm in like a, hey man, let's talk

about life and kind of mode. And, um, but I'd love to just get real stupid with you at some point. That'll be the next one. That'll be part two. Yeah. Stay tuned. Working it out, because it's not done. Working it out, because there's no hope.

Wow. That was a great conversation with Sarah Silverman. You can subscribe to her podcast. It is called The Sarah Silverman Podcast. I think it is fantastic. Our producers of Working Out Are Myself, along with Peter Salamone and Joseph Birbiglia, consulting producer Seth Barish,

sound mix by Kate Balinski, associate producer Mabel Lewis. Special thanks to my consigliere, Mike Berkowitz, as well as Marissa Hurwitz and Josh Affall. As always, a special thanks to Jack Antonoff and Bleachers for their music. As always, a very special thanks to my wife, the poet J. Hope Stein. We collaborated on a book. It is called The New One.

It is an extension of The Special, which was called The New One, but it is a longer book with more stories and details and jokes. It's at your local bookstore. It's perfect for Father's Day right around the corner. As always, a special thanks to my daughter Una who created a radio fort. Thanks most of all to

you who have listened. Tell your friends and even mention it to your enemies. We're working it out. See you next time.