Mike Birbiglia's Working It Out - 45. Neal Brennan: The Comedy Whisperer

Episode Date: June 28, 2021

Before they became comedians, Mike and Neal both got their start working the door at different comedy clubs. Now, they sit down for a discussion of what it was like for Neal to co-create Chapelle’s Show, and the best advice that Neal received from Chris Rock on his hit Netflix special, “3 Mics.” Plus, new material about protesting yourself, macaroni and a powder intended to represent cheese, and how apologies can feel like a fade-away jump shot. Please allow Mike and Neal to show you to your seats. https://txcivilrights.org/

All right. Well, Neil, I'm recording on this end. Are you recording that? Yep. And I'm recording and I have a man here doing a sketch of it. So every single thing is covered. I thought of everything. You thought you guys did. Hey, everybody. We are back with a new episode of Working It Out. Many, many, many announcements of new shows. We're just adding shows left and right. I'm doing shows in New York City at the City Winery.

I'm doing shows in East Hampton. I'm doing a show at the Cape Cod Melody Tent. I'm doing a show at the Cape Cod Melody Tent. I'm doing a show, so many. Just go to Burbiggs.com and see Bloomington, Denver, New Haven, Philadelphia, Austin, Boston. All of these are on Burbiggs.com, and you can sign up for my mailing list to get the most updated information. Our guest today is one of my favorite comics. I mean, this guy, and honestly, one of my favorite comedic minds. He's the co-creator of the legendary Chappelle Show on Comedy Central.

He's a director. He's a writer. He's a stand-up comedian. He created a comedy special called Three Mics, which is on Netflix, one of my favorite comedy specials of all time, which delves into really sensitive subjects of depression and mental health and interweaves it with stand-up in a way that is truly remarkable. One of my favorite comics also, you know, pushes the envelope. He's an edgy comic

in the truest sense of the word. So if there's topics that you don't want to hear about, this would not be the episode because he talks about everything. Enjoy my conversation with the great Neil Brennan. It's funny, I was listening.

I'd never listened to Three Mics, which was your hit Netflix special that I saw in the theater because we were doing the show at the same time when I was doing Thank God for Jokes. You were, you know, basically sharing the stage every night and doing three mics and then so i saw it live i saw the special on netflix and then for the first time i listened to it and i was this may be seem unprofessional but i've never listened to it i figured you hadn't because there's something that would have changed? I'm kidding. Well, no. You know why? It only occurs to me. There's one bit where I'm like, oh, that's

visual. Oh, right. It's the sexual positions bit that I'm like, that's visual. And like, it's killing. Like, it's killing. And I'm like, I wonder what that is. Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's where that's, it's killing. And I'm like, I wonder what that is. Yeah.

Yeah. Well, that's where, I'm trying to drive traffic to Netflix. But it's funny because the audio I found to be, I was moved in the theater, I was moved on the special. The audio I found completely moving and I found myself simultaneously like moved and envious and in admiration of your work that you're able to do this thing,

which is it's joke after joke after joke and they're so strong and you're very lightly threading a narrative through it all about your dad. And that's very real. And you're on depression and the roots of your depression. And it's at the end, it just sneaks up on you. And it snuck up on me.

And I can see how long is left on the track. Well, Michael, I'm standing on your shoulders, Michael. If at all. Shoulders implies that I'm in any you, but without my girlfriend's boyfriend, none of this is possible. Do you really think so? I absolutely, because I'd done an hour on Comedy Central

that I liked and had, I was like, thought they had a ton of great jokes in it and did well in the ratings and then no one cared wow and i was like i well i'm never doing i'm not gonna glibly stand on stage again for an hour oh my gosh like i just i'm cannot do that again because it's like uh something about me people just don't i don't know it. It just didn't resonate. It didn't resonate is probably the wrong word,

but I just, I didn't think that it was valuable or other people didn't think it was valuable. So I was kind of thinking of a different thing to do and saw that, or maybe I'd already seen it and was thinking like, I should, I wonder if I could do like a show with a bit of a dramatic thrust or at least a through line and wow and and based on that but i'd also gone to see bridge and tunnel i always like looking back i was like oh i was i saw i think I saw Eric Boghossian live. Like I saw, I was always kind of keeping up

with like the New York one person show. Yeah. Scene, which isn't really a scene. It's like one or two people a year. Yeah, exactly. But yeah, no, same. Yeah, I was watching solo shows for years. I saw Virgin Tunnel as well.

And then I wrote Sleepwalk with me for similar reasons where I was like, I think I could make more of an impact with something that landed somewhere emotional. it's kind of a marketing decision in a weird way. Like not like it's Craven, but you kind of go, well, what am I, what's a better use of my talent? You know, it's like when people do pilots,

they, it's all, it kind of comes down to like, is this the best use of you? Right. Because, because you're a film director, TV director, film writer, tv writer you you you have all of the component parts and you're a stand-up comedian you have all the component

parts of creating something that is greater than the sum of its parts you have all those facilities and so ostensibly yes you just made a decision you You're like, wow, I'm just going to put it all together. Yeah. And it's not even as capitalist as like, I got something that they don't got. I can write narratives. It's just like, ah, well, that's kind of popular. But I was never going to beat whoever you want to put in the list of like crushers who do arenas yeah i was there are guys that are better at talking glibly for an hour than me so why would i even bother playing that game like when i'm just gonna come in at best i'm gonna

come in 25th that's fascinating because i in one in one man show world or one one person show world i can come into the top 10 or top five it's you me and hannah gadsby yeah so like yeah so that's the that was my thinking with that but it was general and you know and i told rock to watch your special and like yeah that was like the nicest thing anyone's ever done for me you just you got you convinced chris rock to watch my special then he called me yeah yeah it was like it was like one literally one of the greatest days of my life you won a radio contest it was as though i won a radio contest because you i mean you literally told him for like three years yeah like i'm telling you watch this and then you did and it's one of those things

when you tell someone to watch something you have to you do you ask them if they watched it do you want do you do you are do you be annoying about it yeah like hey where are we with that thing i told you like it becomes like a their job yeah they start ducking you because they didn't watch it whatever uh but i i told him for a long time and then that that was i think influenced his tambourine special it's funny because it's like there's this great when i was researching you who are who's my you're my friend, and then I'm researching you, it's bizarre. Yeah, creepy, yeah. What don't I know about Neil?

No, but that's, you ever listen to people's interviews that you're friends with sometimes? You're like, oh, I didn't know that. No, of course. Of course, yeah. I'm not a fan of it. Mine was that there's this Hollywood Reporter article from 2019 2019 about how you're it calls you like the Hollywood comedy whisperer you're because you're like the most thanked comedian by like yeah Chris Rock Dave Chappelle Michelle Wolfe John Mulaney Amy Schumer etc myself and uh and uh it's just, I found it funny

because I don't find that you whisper that often. Well, I'm opposed to whispering. It doesn't, you can't get a point across whispering. I used to whisper, I will say about whispering, and this is a directing thing, if I have to give someone a direction on set, I will try to whisper. Oh, that's interesting.

Because I think it's rude. If I'm directing a scene, if you're directing a scene, an actor does something, and I yell a little more sad than they feel. They're on the hook with the whole crew. Yeah.

Then everyone's watching like, can they do it more sad? Yeah. A bunch of Teamsters going like, I don't think he's got that gear. So I do try to actually whisper. And I remember the first time I was doing auditions with somebody that I'd never worked with before, and I went and whispered in an auditioner's ear. They were like, you have to tell us what you said.

That's funny. I was like, oh, okay. I told them, it's like, I don't know, just see if it's better or not, because I just think it puts the people on spot, and it becomes this weird power thing. What's the best note that you've ever gotten

on your solo performance? I don't... I mean, I remember Rock saying... You're speaking of The Rock, Dwayne Johnson? Dwayne johnson um chris the rock rock um i it was rock told me that if you're in with three mics i'm in these little areas and he was like if once you're in that area even when you're doing stand-up if you're walking you cannot leave your area yeah that's super smart which is kind of

obvious or something but but a good note and then dave chapelle gave me a good note for the overall thing he saw like the second time i did it or something was pretty embryonic and he said there was a point where i i at the beginning i identified each mic i'm gonna do this i'm gonna do this i'm'm going to do this. I'm going to do this. Yes. And then he was like, just do it. Oh my gosh. Don't tell people. I got to say,

I saw a version where you call out the mics and then when I listened to the audio today, you took that out and I thought, that is so damn smart that he pulled that out.

Yeah. Dave Chappelle, I feel like that guy, he's going to go places, right? Finally, finally. Well, no, that's the thing about Dave that people don't, would never know. It's like, yeah, he's an incredible speaker, but it's also like a philosophy of filmmaking, television,

any kind of theatrical, he's like, he had a fix for, Chabelle had a fix for, what was the Tom Hanks movie? He had a fix for the road to perdition. That's hilarious. That if they'd done it, would have made the movie twice as good. Wow.

Yeah, and it's like one of those things where it's like, well, yeah, he's just a Martian. I remember seeing Road to Perdition in the theater because there's this monologue that the actor gives where he goes to Tom Hanks

who I think plays his son, goes like or son figure. He goes, it's the life we choose. It's the life we live. And it always stuck with me because I always think of comics as that way, as like,

as like, we're, we're on the road. We have these really unorthodox hours. We work on the weekends and everybody else is off on the weekends. Correct. We're working at night.

Yeah. We eat on the run. Almost none of it lines up with most people. Completely. And I always think of that monologue, which is, I think, Paul Newman. Am I getting that right? Yeah, he's in it. Yeah.

Yeah. I'll tell you Chappelle's fix real quick, which is, you know how tom hanks comes in at the end and then there's a there's a killer behind him yeah chapelle's fix was put tom hanks entering about a third of the way into the movie oh that's and then reveal the killer at the end. Oh, that's really nice. Which is just like punchline shit, but like, yep, I'm sure no one pitched it. That's fascinating. When you co-created Chappelle's show with Dave,

was it like Simon and Garfunkel-y? Or was it like, I mean, I'm trying to think of a better analogy. Was it like two very different voices combining to create one thing, or do you think that you shared a brain sort of thing? I think closer to the second, meaning like there were very few things that we weren't, that we were in disagreement on in terms of,

I mean, the joke I would make is like, if I don't like an idea, it's probably not going to get on the show. If Dave doesn't like it, it's definitely not going to get on the show. Yeah, because he, for the most part, yeah. There's a thing that I used to say, which is Tom York

from Radiohead said that he once said that Radiohead is the United Nations, and he's the united states oh that's hilarious that's it was like that's a good one yeah but it's also the guy jumping out of the plane is the only guy it's like yeah i'm not gonna you know it's like seth myers always says like he learned at snl like somebody don't want to do it you they don't you can't make someone do it no that's a huge like no i'm telling you i'm telling you this will work no i mean that that's the that's the whole thing it's it's almost directing

is like that in general it's almost like you're a therapist for your patient which is the actor in some ways because you're trying to get them to arrive at the revelation that you hope they arrive at, because that's the gold on screen. Yeah. It's hard to plan it. Yeah. Because it's also like, if they already are there,

then there's no, you don't have to direct them. Yeah. You know what I mean? But you also know most of directing is like faster. Go faster. Yeah yeah literally go faster uh hey favor your left it's like a lot of it's just physical shit and not so much like emotional you know it's some it's like 20 that but 80 like hey with this doorknob sticks completely so when you come in you gotta slam it you know what's funny because like i was talking to keegan michael key the other day who called me and by the time this this airs this will people will have seen it but

he called me to tell me he's hosting snl that's awesome. Which is exciting because it like circles back to the movie we made together where he was auditioning for SNL and gets on. But he was a great... Some actors, Keegan's like this, some actors are so great

to work with because they're just on the team. They're like, let's crack this together kind of thing. Right. And then some actors are kind of like, it's almost like they're a fish on the line or something.

They're like fighting you. Well, yeah. And it's also like, why did you do it? Why did you decide to do this? Why are we doing this project together? Yeah. Like, if you don't think, what part of it did you like? Like, what part of the script did you like? I also think people in comedy are good because they'll just say, tell me how to say it. Oh my gosh, yes, you're absolutely right.

Which actors will never say, tell me how to say it. Whereas comedy people know, like, there are 10 ways to say this line. One is the funniest. Tell me the funniest way to say it. The thing that I read, I don't know if I heard this in an interview you did or I saw it in writing where you said the thing that you're best at is getting Charlie Murphy to tell a story. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I said that on Instagram. And then when I read that, I went back and watched the charlie murphy sketches and i don't think i've laughed that hard in years yeah they're in it's just incredibly funny it's just unbelievably i'd like shot it uh whatever co-conceived it, did everything there. But, I mean,

that's just, a lot of it's, some of it's editing, some of it's production, but a lot of it is just Dave channeling something. Like, there's no other word for what he did. By playing Prince. Rick James was the one that was like, he didn't even remember half the

shit he said. Do you have people come up to you and talk about their own depression because of three mics they don't uh the good thing about depressed people is they don't come up to you that much um but but they'll they they'll dm the shit out of you mike yeah um yeah a lot of dms like a lot of dms um kind of every day there's at least one more than more than the um you kind of help me get through a tough time, which I think a lot of comedians get. It's, it's, I talk about treatment in the special. Yes,

that's right. Like a lot of people tell me. You talk about ketamine, you talk about magnets. Yeah, the magnets, the TMS is the transcranial magnetic stimulation. A lot of people tell me they've done it because they heard about it in the special.

Wow. I would bet, I don't know, 50 people have said that, that I'm aware of. So like that to me is super cool and gratifying. Not like in any way that I'm like, Mike, I'm saving lives. I don't know about your schedule.

But it's just cool. It's just like, oh, great. And it's funny. And that's an unintended consequence. But that's also the thing that I learned, and I'm sure you've learned a version of it, which is I remember members of my family, a sister of mine, said some of the effect of, like, you didn't want to ask us before you said all this stuff publicly about the family? And and but I think what she realized when I realized is every single family, the feedback is like, yeah, that's like my family or. Right.

It's no one judges it. It's just it's like everyone's got dirt. I just said ours first. Yeah. You know, like I'll go first. And then litany of problems. Yeah, that was my experience when I watched it was I was like, oh, my gosh, this feels completely like my family, even though my dad's not an alcoholic and my dad, you know, but but yet I completely saw myself in the story, which is the best version of it. Yeah, it's just that families are an ecosystem and like they get that way for a reason. And it's like so that's that's the thing that i think people it wasn't it wasn't damning our family really yeah the one that blew my mind in three mics

when i first saw it live was when you talk about being a star fucker and you're like yeah you're like i get off on like being friends with stars like it gives me a hit of dopamine and it's like i was like wow that feels so inside and yet i relate to it and the audience loves it well because it's that's the only thing in the show that i'm actually embarrassed by and not like i walk around but it was like um spot and not like I walk around a very but it was like um going to therapy I realized at a certain point in therapy like you have to tell on yourself oh 100% you have to tell on yourself yeah it just doesn't work so if you're doing a show and you don't tell on yourself in some way that's your thing about the prostitute in the sex worker in Amsterdam,

in the new one, where I was like, that was the first thing I said to you after. And you were like, yeah, I've gotten some notes about cutting it. I wrote glass. My producers thought I should cut it. And my brother Joe thought I should cut it,

who are two extremely smart people who just were always uncomfortable with it. And my director, Seth, and I felt strongly that it's essential for the show. Because I think that you have to admit your flaws in order for the audience to truly see themselves in you. Because they're flawed. Yeah. I have a thing in my new show where I say, like, I like my dog. I don't think I love him. I don't think I love him.

I like him a lot. Yeah. But I'm just not, my constitution isn't such that, like, he's my very good friend roommate. He's not my son or any of that shit. Right. The other thing that you said to me when you came backstage after the new one on Broadway, because you're, I would say, my most honest friend offstage, is you go, better than thank God for jokes.

Not as good as my girlfriend's boyfriend. Like, and I was like, all right, fair enough. Yeah. And do you agree with that? I think that's fair.

I think, you know, they're all, all these, you know, things that you create, they're your children to some degree. And so like,

it's hard to be like, I, there's some days where I'm like, no, no, I love Thank God for Children, whatever it is, whatever thing you made. But there's no, you know, it's not quantitative. Yes. I don't think that that's gonna automatically,

that's not gonna be the consensus per se. But I also think it's like, I remember seeing a Jay-Z interview or something where he was on Twitter when an album came out and somebody was like, is this your best album? He's like, no, that's probably like my fifth best.

Oh my God, that's hilarious. And I just thought like, well, I got some news for you. I own the other one, so I don't think I'm going to get this. Oh, that's great. If you didn't, if you didn't if you didn't i think there's something to be said for i think there's something to be said for um

thinking about the stuff of yours that's the like that is the most successful and not and then not designing it based on that. But I know, I knew once three mics hit that I kind of have to do shit. That's emotional. Yeah. I just kind of, I'm like, okay, I have to do that now. So,

so yeah, like there's something. And so it's just about thinking of those. You're very good at, you've told me, you've explained me you've explained to me like how you kind of devise shows but i think that's the knowing the thing that is like the the the the mile markers or whatever the the the markers of the what what are the

pillars of a good show for you you know i think once you realize that i think you're able to do more of them you know yeah like didn't you realize at a certain point like what did you do after after sleepwalk maybe did you kind of that's i did girlfriend i need to do that yeah i did right but did you did you know you kind of had the same conclusion, like, well, now I kind of have to do that? Yeah, yeah. It was, I was like, I have to do this. And then when I did Thank God for Jokes, it was, I was so sick of doing things that were emotional that I was like, I'm going to go out on tour and just do the funniest jokes I can write. the funniest jokes I can write.

And then in the process of doing that, I was like, oh, the arc is about jokes themselves and the nature of how they cut both ways, how you live by the story, die by the story. Well, yeah, you were probably scared when you went out. Well, when you do your just joke shows, you're probably, I know I, when I did like, I did an hour and a half, it's on Netflix and the other half will be in the new show but like

where I was like well I'm not there's not going to be any through line it's just me being funny and you think the audience will be disappointed I think the thing we both underestimated is like the audience is also a little relieved that they don't have to hear about sad shit.

Yeah. They're like, you know, there's value to glibness. I think we just be glib. That's fine. We don't have to come to any conclusions emotionally. So I think, yeah. The other thing you said to me, we went to dinner after you came to the show on Broadway and you go, I wrote these three tags. It's like the show's done, Neil.

Oh, yeah. You had like joke tags. And I did consider them. I brought them all to my director and we kicked them around. But like there's a unique generosity that you have about jokes and i don't know if it's generosity or just a compulsion like are you just obsessed with comedy that you're just like what about this what about this what about this like your brain just can't stop thinking of joke tags yeah but it's i mean i think it's partially like uh i like seeing people do my shit like that's how i got started yeah like that's how i met day i mean i was working the door to comedy club and like

would just pitch jokes to people and it was annoying i remember chapelle said the first time i pitched him a joke he was like he was like flinching oh my gosh that's like oh fuck i hate this and then it was a good joke and he was like oh he was like oh that's like it goes from the worst from the most presumptuous thing in the world to thank you for that life preserver yeah like i i hate this to like oh okay great um so you and i have that in common. We both started at the door. I was at the DC Improv and you were at the Boston Comedy Club

in New York City. And you gave joke tags to Dave Chappelle and I gave jokes to no one. I was just the door person. Yeah. No, I, it's just, I like it,

but I also think it's like good, if I think of a tag for you, I'm never gonna use it. Totally. Like, that's what I like about this, that's what I like about this show, is like,

we kick around jokes, and it's like, yeah, if Taylor Tomlinson comes on the show, and she runs something by me, and I go, what about this line? I'm never going to use that line. No. There's no, there's no shame.

There's no harm in giving someone a tag for their concept. Yeah. Like there's none. Like it's you, it's almost like it would be bad karma not to. Yeah. Like, you have to. I don't know. You kind of have to.

Yeah. Not legally, but you know what I mean. Like, just spiritually. You've worked with every, like, not every big comic, but you've, you know, like that article, the Comic Whisperer talks about you worked with trevor noah and schumer and uh rock and all these people uh who's the bell and that's the big one ellen ellen degenerous um who's the best who's the funniest yeah if i had to go on the road finally someone asked me um no well the the thing that's impressive about them all is like you don't you don't uh you don't work with any of them go like it's a fraud oh that's interesting yeah you don't literally not one of them every single one of them you see like

oh okay at some point they like alan one time did probably 15 minutes of crowd work at Largo. And I had the thought, like, this is the best crowd work I've ever seen. Yeah, that's amazing. Literally every decision she made was the right decision. She's a killer. She's one of the...

Yeah, she's one of the comics who, when I was younger, and I was just understanding what stand-up comedy was stephen wright and jake johansson all these people she's one of those people where i was a complete killer complete but if you grow up in this generation killer yeah but in this generation if you grew up on ellen you know she's a talk show host yeah you don't know yeah she's great at that she's a very great talk show host dancing etc etc but like also don't forget yeah she's i mean she's also like i was wearing a like a ten dollar timex watch and i and portia ellen's wife liked it so i so uh rich people do this thing where if you like something of theirs they buy it for you. Oh, really?

Yeah. I kind of noticed it. I can't, I've never done it, but I've noticed it. Yeah. Um, and,

uh, so I got Porsche, uh, Timex and, um, and I gave it to her and, uh, Ellen goes,

that's nice. Neil, where'd you get it? Woolworths so we do this thing on the show called the slow round which is mostly just memories and things like do you have anything that from childhood that's like you remember on a loop but it never makes it into a show because it's not a story yeah that's a very good question and you want to talk about telling on yourself there was a um there was a boy in my class and i murdered him kidding No, I'm kidding. And that's how we got him. Take him away, boys.

Finally. Where's that buzzer? No, this is like a weird, a thing where I realized looking back that I was kind of, it's like a self-flagellation thing or like a self-harm thing where i used to like yank my own teeth out oh gosh meaning around the time that they were coming out okay i would be i would make a point of like this sunday i'm gonna take this one out

oh my god um it sounds like some psycho mulaney shit um um this sunday i'm gonna take this out um no it's i would pull my own i probably pulled out i want to say like six or eight teeth. And all of them before they were ready to come out. All of them were loose. I'll say that for myself. But there was something weirdly self-immolation-y about it that looking back I now recognize.

But the thing about childhood is like you don't know what's um your character and what's just kids are fucking weird were you embarrassed of it no it was a bit of it was like i can take the pain i remember that i remember it being like a rambo in the movie Rambo First Blood. He like did his own stitches. Yeah. Being like, yeah, I fucking take it. I don't even know if I'd seen Rambo.

But there was just, you know, it's like the sports thing of like, of, you know, these guys are tough and gritty and all that stuff. It's funny. I think that's part of the reason why three mics work so well is because it's such an unexpected turn from you, your stage persona, which is so, I would say it's tough.

Like I would say like, your comedy is edgy. And then, you know, towards the end, it starts, you know, reversing the audience where you go, oh shit, like Neil is a real person like with really deep emotions and feelings.

Yeah, I would think the thing I would, the part of the reason I did it, which I should have mentioned earlier, was like, it was a marketing, again, marketing is the wrong word, but like a backward thinking idea of like why it it's, you know, working with all these amazing comedians.

And then also just like a lot of my peers are more charismatic than me, but just like a lot of, we know a lot of charisma machines yeah you know and and and kind of explaining why i'm not that yeah yeah was the kind of the point of three mics is like well i got a lot of shit inside yeah that is kind of blocking it from the charisma's in there but it's a little, it's a little stopped up. Do you remember a period in your life where you were an inauthentic version of yourself?

Yeah. Well, there's, you know, when Chappelle Show ended and then between Chappelle Show and Three Mics, I was kind of like a little lost. Yeah. I just wasn't sure. Because stand-up takes eight to ten years to really know what you're doing.

Yeah. For most people. But most people start when they're 20. Yeah. But I started at 33. So I was kind of weird i look back on that period and i'm like a poor guy i i had to cycle through a lot of bad ideas uh not bad ideas but just bad values or something because like what do you think the persona was in that in like not even the

persona it wasn't it was just like what do i uh i was kind of like uh there was like my time my life before chapelle show and it was like very very small and like i didn't have very many friends and I, me and Dave were like, I just had a couple of friends. I would just take, I would just take lives in New York and would just take like three to four hour walks every night. And, um, but didn't have like any kind of community. But what was the, what was in the authentic?

What was inauthentic when you like were in that period of your life? Like, well in the, but I was like in myic when you like were in that period of your life like well in the but i was like in my 30s so it was like it's just i couldn't decide exactly who it's like am i like a hot shot or am i like a uh like i have a prius yeah but i'm a it just i just wasn't sure which way to go. You know what's fucked up? And I had this written down in my notes to not even talk to you as a premise.

Yeah. But I wrote down, I'm 47 and still trying to find out what I'm like. That's a good premise. Where I'm like, hey, what am I like? Like kind of every interaction with people is like'm like hey what am i like like kind of every interaction with people is like hey what am i like am i like uh what and it's embarrassing that it may never stop and i don't know if it's a comedy thing or if it's a human thing where even friendships are like it's like proofreading your own behavior with somebody we're like am i an asshole

i'm 80 hey i'm 80 years old am i an asshole for this like you will still wonder if you're an asshole. Oh, that's so funny. That's the great mystery of life. Like, huh. No, I think my version of that is, what do I like to do? Oh, fuck, nothing. Let me answer that for you. Not much. Yeah. Like, so often when I'm not working and sprinting around figuring out, you know, you know, going from Cincinnati to Chicago to Milwaukee and then back home to be with my wife and daughter.

Like like I'm like I get home and I'm like, wait, what do I like to do? Yeah. Well, there's also when you realize like, well, I like to read books. All the books are about the job. That's funny. All the documentaries are about you're watching for like research. You're watching the Comedy Store documentary. Yeah. It's like it's not exactly opposition research, but it's definitely. I don't know. it's not exactly leisure.

Right, you're reading the biography of Mike Nichols. It's not exactly leisure. No, you're not. That's not like, well, I'm not even in show business. I'm a plumber. I'm just drawn to the guy who directed The Graduate. I'm just curious about him. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Like, you're not, it's all kind of in the service which is another thing that's kind of weirdly isolating about the job oh my gosh yeah which is why i think yeah which is why i like that you're so collaborative as a person and i feel like you and i have that in common which is like yeah we know it's a solo art but also the more fun aspects are where it becomes like a team sport i think the fun uh somebody you know when people say uh when you're you're not going to think about your job on your deathbed. Yeah. I kind of think like, I did a pretty cool job. That's pretty defining. That's very funny.

I had a similar premise recently, which is people say life isn't a competition, but okay, what is it then? That's very funny. Because I think competition is a pretty good guess. Sure seems like it, what with the trophies and the rankings. what what else do you have in the notebook right now i'm trying to write a uh bit about no sorry

it's your turn no no you go you go okay um i have a thing about college and how it goes from i'm like the college should be free because it's basically extra high school that's great it's just extra high school just extra high school like so we went from k through 12 is free and then 13th grade get alone that's you can't afford this get alone and it's like what's happening yes what is happening what kind of information am i getting and it's also it's there it goes from like trial period 12 year trial period and then premium is uh fifty thousand dollars yeah and then the the bit that parts it's working it's like so is there nothing there's no other arrangement we can make like maybe a spotify thing where i go to college yeah but i have to listen to ads and then and then like uh like so you'll be in psychology

class the teacher will be like and that's when freud invented the idea of the self we'll be right back and then it's like speaking of the self me undies my god unbelievable does My gosh, unbelievable. Does really well. That's so funny. By the way, somebody had, Scott Galloway from Pivot, somebody said he's doing that idea for real. Really? Where it's like ads in college lectures, which is like, yeah, I don't understand why that, everything in the world can do an ad model except that.

Right. So I think he's going to try. But the thing I want to do is like if college taught really helpful shit, like if there was a class on your friend just got a big career break and you're jealous. Yeah. Like things that would like, how about my family's fucking crazy 101? Yeah. Just things that,

practical skills. Right. Yes. Actual skills. Yeah. Maybe how do I break up with this person? Right. Without them realizing it. My dad left when i was six and i'm trying to have a relationship yes yeah that's great um yeah

hold on how do i person who may be mentally ill. Maybe you, you know, Neil, you could have maybe just listened to the podcast and written this down later. No, I like it. I like hearing the clicking of keys. It means there's progress occurring. Yeah, it really makes you feel like you're doing something. Well, you know what's funny about working jokes out with you, and this is true when we're on the phone too, you don't laugh that much you just go yeah that that's funny no i know i'm sorry because you're a very good laugher no and i'm not i'm not i'm not uh fishing for compliments but i no no i don't know i'm i'm you're fishing for an apology and you got it okay um no i'm not i don't

i just i you know that's you're one of the few people i know who isn't broken in that way in comedy where you actually will laugh at a joke like it's like you're not in comedy like you you're you you're like uh you're like someone watching a magic trick where you're like oh shit um where you have no idea how the person thought of it um which is very which is much better than what i do and for that matter most comedy writers yes yes yes um yeah i like the college thing a lot i mean you have that phenomenal joke in three mics about how college college loans are basically small business loans for a failing business. Yes. You're not a good business. Yeah. You're the business is you and you're not a good business. Yeah. And Mulaney's got the good loan, like a good six minutes on maybe probably 10 minutes on loans but that's true like that's true like i i man i wish i had more to kick in on that joke but it's like but you're right i mean they're

like the there's this essentially a cliff that you fall off of financially after 12 grade 12 it's like you're going along it's your job it's like you're going along. It's like you're literally like you're jogging along. It's like grade one, grade two, grade three, grade four, grade 10. And you get to 12 and then you fall off a cliff financially. Yeah. You know what might be good is like you're just jogging. You're just on a late morning jog to first grade, second grade, third grade, 13th grade, Ironman man and you're like iron man

you ever think about your acting go i got too many analogies there's so many fucking analogies in three mics it's there's probably not getting 20 analogies no i'm i i think about all the time It's like, when I finish a show, I take a look at the metaphors and I go, wait, does this metaphor actually conflict with the earlier metaphor that I make? Yeah. I just think how many metaphors can the audience bear? How many can they bear? Yeah. My whole life I've eaten macaroni and cheese. And a box of macaroni and cheese contains macaroni and a bag of powder that we are led to believe represents cheese that's funny like the powder

like the powder is about to give a speech like we're here today to represent cheese cheese couldn't make it but we're honored that cheese chose us as their replacement we couldn't have done it without milk special thanks to butter yeah and uh but yeah but really it all comes down to my my partner macaroni do you want to do one more and I'll do one more? You can go. You want me to go? Yeah.

Well, this is, you're, okay. I feel like you might have something on this, which is, I apologize a lot, but it's never a slam dunk. It's more like a fadeaway jumper. Like sometimes people don't even know it happened. That's funny. But like, like it, like it's like, sorry. Like I do the physical, like, sorry. It's almost like, it's like the sorry's,

just any sentence you say, the sorry's just implied. The sorry's are on the house or something right what do you what do you feel sorry about what do you find yourself most if there was like a pie chart of things you apologize for i feel like i feel like i'm all like it's like leaving a party early like sorry we have a babysitter and you know and that's what I mean by fadeaway jumper it's always just like

it's always like sorry we got the sitter in the Uber and we gotta go to the thing my parents are coming in the morning early late early just key words My parents are coming in the morning. Early. Yeah. Late. Early. Just key words.

Yeah. Late. Early. Run. Uber. Strike. Just anything you've heard that could possibly explain your... I just had a thought, which is like you...

I don't even want to say this out loud. It's like you, at a certain point, your kid's going to be 20 and you're going to be like, my kid, I'm going to take my kid to the, he's training, like running out of excuses. Like my son, isn't your son a lawyer? Yeah, buddy. That's very funny. Overusing your child as an excuse for not doing things.

Yeah. Ah, my kid is a practice chaperone. I like that. That's funny. The idea of keywords is funny too. Because no one is like chaperone. Right. Last time.

I think what you're saying is funnier than what my premise is, which is that I don't even say the word sorry. It's just that I have these bullet points of words that feel like sorry. Yeah. You know, like cut my coat. The keys are gone. You know, dry cleaner early. dry cleaner early

because at a certain point people know especially part people know you're lying so it's like do we need to how much of this charade do you want me to do it's almost like that could be the setup

where you don't even pretend anymore you just give keywords of other people's excuses you've heard over the years. Right. You're like, medical. Grandmother. Medical. Parking.

Car. Early. Late. Uncle Bill's. Yeah, I got it. Yeah. I think that's good. That's actually, I like that better than my premise

actually which the the idea of just like throwing out keywords in an apologetic tone all the time yeah and just that's how you leave parties now i wonder if i'll ever reach a point where i'm not apologizing all the time i feel like that's of my, that's one of my goals in life. Yeah. That's the, one of the advantages of being old is you just go, ah, yeah.

Yeah. I don't, and people kind of fill it in for you. You think, ah, yeah. And they go old, sickly,

dying soon, always been this way. That's how they used to do it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The assumptions of why. And it's also kind of the you're like a commanding officer when you're older, socially. You just get away with shit

because you've seen it all yeah like you just be like i this is my 1500th party right and i don't as you can imagine the appeals worn off yeah so i'm leaving um i had a i had a i have a not a symbol i i've been a lot of my shit's about being a white liberal man yeah and uh and i have a bit now where i say where i do a thing where i'm like women have all the power in relationships like men can't say anything and then i'm like actually it's not just it's liberal white men can't say anything have no power in a relationship like as a liberal white man i have to go to protests against myself oh that's where like i i just have to go and like where is that like when the george floyd

I just have to go. And where is that? When the George Floyd protest happened, I was like, where's my sign from the women's march? Ah, yes. White men are the problem. And then I have to go and fucking find the worst. Conservatives don't have that issue. No.

They get there. They're still sexist. It's like baked in that they're sexist. They're in the misogyny bubble. The funniest part of the joke is I say like, women, you might have your, it might be an uphill climb because I was at the Women's March in 2017 and it's me and just a bunch of other 150 pound boyfriends

and uh and uh and i and i look over the guy and he's he's holding a sign that says this is what a feminist looks like with an arrow pointed at him and he and i made eye contact and he went, he just shook his head at me like, don't worry about it. That part fucking crushes. That's very funny. I realized it was a visual joke on a audio podcast. A huge problem. I think the protesting yourself thing is very,

also very fertile for like an analogy. Cause it's, it's very fertile for like, it's like, for like, if you were playing, it's like if you were playing basketball, you know,

and then you score a few for the other team too. Yeah. It's like, it just, it's a it's counter to i mean equality human equality is not that's not what capitalism is for it's not an equality mechanism so there's all these things that are in us and then and for, I genuinely believe for some white people, they never thought about the counter until like two years ago. The counter?

Wait, what? The counter of like, wait, this is not income inequality. Why shouldn't there be? I went to good school. Yeah, but the reason you went to good school is because the education system's rigged. And oh, oh, what? Huh?

Yeah. Like, you have better education. Even schools are based on property taxes. What? And so if you live in a rich neighborhood, it's better facility. Oh. I like that character that you're doing. Ow.

Really? What? So what about, so am i as tall as i think i am or no in some ways what what social justice is asking for is it's i said this before which is it's the white people are in a position now where the airline is saying, we need three volunteers. Yes. They give up their seat. And white people are staring at their phones. So the final thing we do is called Working Out for a Cause. And if you have a nonprofit that you think is doing a good job, I'll contribute to them and link them in the show notes. I don't.

I'm kidding. No, no, no. No, I don't. I think they all, I've,

you know what I've been given to, and I think I'm probably gonna do this forever. If you saw, there's a movie, there's a documentary on hbo called exterminate all brutes which is uh probably the most brutal look at colonization imperialism and slavery i've ever seen it's on hbo max but i've been giving to Native American and black charities for like, I think that's it. I think those are the people I'm going to be given to forever.

And it's TexasCivilRightsProject.org. Okay. Well, I'm going to contribute to them and I will encourage listeners to do it as well. And thanks for coming on, Neil. Oh, buddy, come on. This is, yeah. A pleasure and an honor. Working it out, because it's not done.

We're working it out, because there's no hope. That's going to do it for another episode of Working It Out with Neil Brennan. You can follow Neil on at Neil Brennan on Instagram. You can listen to his podcast, How Neil Feel. He is one of the, I believe, one of the great comic minds.

He has, I don't even know if he's telling people this. He's got a new show, live show, coming to a place near you. Just follow him because his new show is really, truly incredible. My special thanks to Neil Brennan. Our producers of Working It Out are myself along with Peter Salamone and Joseph Berbiglia. Consulting producer, Seth Barish. Sound mix by Kate Belinsky, associate producer Mabel Lewis,

special thanks to Mike Insiglieri, Mike Berkowitz, as well as Marissa Hurwitz and Josh Uppfall. Special thanks to Jack Antonoff and Bleachers for their music. As always, a very special thanks to my wife, the poet, Jay Hopestein. Our book, The New One, is at your local bookstore. What better time to support your local bookstore than now? Go pick up some books.

As always, a special thanks to my daughter, Una, who created our radio fort. Thanks most of all to you who have listened. Tell your friends. Tell, you know what, reach out to the enemies. Shoot the enemies an email. See what they're up to. You tell them about this show, because we're working it out.

See you next time, everybody.