Mike Birbiglia's Working It Out - 46. Brie Larson: Captain Marvel Helps Captain Jokes

Episode Date: July 5, 2021

Mike is joined this week by Academy Award-winning actor Brie Larson whose films range from Captain Marvel to Room as well as Trainwreck, where her character Kim is married to Mike’s character Tom. Mike bounces jokes off of Brie about people on the internet being angry and vocal about Mike and Brie’s characters being a married couple. The result is hilarious, honest, and ultimately lands on Brie’s joke advice that just might work! In this universe! https://thejewishmuseum.org/buy/donation

Hey, everybody. We are back with a new episode of Working It Out. Really exciting, unique episode today. Also some exciting news. I'm performing a whole bunch of shows this summer. Everything is changing in real time. I'm doing one of my first real true theater shows indoors at Guild Hall in East Hampton on July 9th and 10th. We just announced it. And so get tickets fast for that.

And I'm doing a whole other bunch of shows coming up in New York City and Denver and Philadelphia and Boston and all other a whole bunch of places. It's all on Burbix.com. But today we have one of the greatest actors that we have. Brie Larson I first saw in Short Term 12, which is a great independent film. And then she and I met on, we were both in the film Trainwreck, where we played a married couple with a son. This was before I had a child.

This was pretending to be a dad before I was a dad. And shortly after that, she won an Oscar for her role in the movie Room, which is incredible. She's Captain Marvel in Captain Marvel and a bunch of other Marvel films. She's also directed the film Unicorn Store. And she has a great, great podcast that I was on and Bill Hader and many other people who I love, which is called Learning Lots.

We work out jokes, including a joke I'm working on about Brie Larson. including a joke I'm working on about Brie Larson and the fact that people criticize me on the internet for my character being married to Brie Larson. Enjoy my conversation with the great Brie Larson. Ooh. Ooh, working it. We're working it. You and I met at a rehearsal for Trainwreck in Los Angeles.

And then at the rehearsal, we were improvising, and we didn't know each other. Yeah. It was just like, oh, okay, improvise with this person. Classic Judd. Yeah, classic Judd. He's like, hey, can you come to the office today? And I show up, and he's like, so you're going to like a scene where you're at a party with Mike Birbiglia now. And you're like, oh, and then we'll eat lunch.

Yeah. And it was me, you, and Bill Hader and Amy Schumer all improvising. It was super fun. But it was also like, I also had this thing where, you know, I'd never had this, where Judd was like, come on over. And I didn't even really know I was in the movie. Oh, I had the same exact experience. Yeah. That's his way. Were we going to be fired if we weren't good or something?

I think so. Honestly, I don't know what your experience was, but mine was that he emailed me and was like, hey, I'm working on this script with Amy Schumer. She's really funny. We're bored. Can you come have lunch with us? And I was like- We're bored. Come on. Okay. So I came and we were just talking and everyone's, you know, we're laughing, whatever. And at one point Judd's like, oh yeah, you know, you and Amy do kind of look like sisters. Can I

get a picture of you? You do look kind of similar. I'm like, okay. He takes this picture and then he's like, this was really fun. Would you come again tomorrow? And I was like, okay. Make the trek again the next day. And then somehow it turned into like, hey, can you improvise this?

Hey, can you do that? Next thing I know, I'm like in this movie. And I was a stress case the entire time because I was like, I don't know how to do comedy. I literally just came home from lunch and fell into it. I was like, this is't know how to do comedy. I literally just came in for lunch and fell into it. I was like, this is not how it works for me. It's funny you should say that, though, because I'm on, this week, in preparation for this interview,

I'm on a Brie Larson movie marathon. Oh, wow. So I've seen a lot of you this week. And I actually think part of what defines you is you're funny I think you bring humor to everything you do thank you thank you I think I've just I think I've just really dug into this bit for a really long time that I don't do comedy because I want to be a surprise like I don't want to I haven't studied it I don't really know and my whole thing has always just been play it straight and play it sincere.

And if that in itself is funny, I cringe at the idea of trying to make a joke. It really stresses me out. But if I'm just talking about the absurdity of a moment, then that to me is funny. But I think that that's at the heart of like this week I watched Room and I ran the gamut. Yeah, tell me a joke from Room. Yeah, exactly. Oh, my gosh. But even in that, in the first 10 minutes, you have these moments with the wonderful Jacob Tremblay who where you are like, sweet and funny the way a mother and child are

with one another. And it's completely authentic. But I find, like, with all your roles, there's a level of commitment, and, and, which is interrelated to comedy. Because you're saying, like, I'm just trying to be authentic. I'm just trying to essentially, like, listen, right? Like, listen and respond. And, like, that's all that comedy is in some ways. That's it? I think that's all of it. Oh, wow. This interview's over.

Well, great. I'm glad we cracked it. I feel less stressed now. I've been worried this whole time. I was like, why am I on this podcast? I am not a comedian. No, it's, let me rephrase it. It's a huge element.

I think listening and responding is like a massive element of comedy. But then also like when I look at the through line of like all of your roles, which are so different from each other. I mean, people must say that to you a lot, right? Like this idea of like you're in a superhero movie and then you're in a room. Like it's like, those are wildly different things.

It's more that people don't know the majority of the films that i've been in like i even train wreck for example people are like i'll hear someone say you know that they love train wreck and i'm like oh yeah i was in that and they're like you were who are you in that yeah it's it's it's like majority or like if i'm checking out at the grocery store i don't get recognized i get like It's like the majority, or like if I'm checking out at the grocery store, I don't get recognized. I get like, are you friends with my cousin?

I've gotten that multiple times at the grocery store. I am the classic face of friend of your cousin. Same. Right. A hundred percent. It's amazing because I have a certain level of anonymity out in the world because I think I haven't built anything stable stand on. I don't, I don't hold any sort of lane, which is what my goal was. I think one of the through lines of all of your performances is your level of commitment to the character. And, and what I was curious about, because a lot of the people who listen to this

show are they're artists and writers and creators is is that commitment innate or or is that is that learned um it's interesting I can't it's I feel like it's both um I feel like it's a form of survival for myself I told my mom I wanted to be an actor when I was really young when I was like six I think. So it's kind of even before fully formed memories. I have like snippets of feeling, remembering like desire to be in the school play. Like those are some of my earliest memories are just like this burning thing. I was also super shy. And so acting, my mom was very confused for a long time and thought that I was just, when I was saying I wanted to be an actor, it must've been something that someone else was saying. And I was repeating it.

I didn't know what I was talking about because I was so shut down and so shy. So acting became this way for me to actually learn how to like have eye contact and speak. And I don't know what kind of person I would be without that foundation as a kid. Cause I think it helped me grow as a person. And then that's simultaneous to being rejected from every job I ever auditioned for forever, for a really, really long time. And so I had these breaking points all the time where it just was too many no's, too much. And the same day you'd get your to this and to that and then be conflicting opposite things. And you're like, what do I do with this? There's nowhere for me to go. I can't change my eye color. I can't. Yes. Oh my gosh. So you have these moments, or at least I did, of just complete

and utter hopelessness. Oh my gosh. And in that, I would, and this started very, because I started auditioning very young, I'd have it all through my adolescence. Even many, many times before I ever even moved out of the house. And every time that happened, I would go into my room and cry a lot. And I'd have to think, why am I doing this? What is the purpose of this? It hurts so bad. Why do I keep doing it? Because the signs are saying no all the time. And it's from that place that I started recognizing what I wanted to do, why I wanted to be in film. And the representation aspect was a huge driving force for me that at a really young age, I felt like so lost by the films that I was seeing. I didn't feel,

I felt like I was in direct competition with an idea of what I was seeing on screen that didn't match how I felt as a teenager. And I felt so alone. And so I wanted to like share what I was feeling. So that, and then that just became commitment and that became survival because I felt like if I studied harder, if I did more, then that would be the only way I could get the job. And then that has sort of led me on to a point where, you point where I spend nine months prepping for a movie and I'm not even entirely sure if that's healthy. I'm just starting to hit the point at 31 to go, maybe I have learned enough that I can pare that back and I can trust the tools that I've learned enough to fall into this more. But I still have this thing in me, which definitely comes from insecurity and being rejected so much where I want to over-prepare. When we were working on Trainwreck together,

you were just finding out that you were doing Room and you were, I think, telling me about it. And I was just thinking, wow, that's going to be a lot. That's the story. And if people don't know it, it's where a woman survives with her son living in a room, then they're kidnapped and abused. And it's just a horrible, it's a horrible, horrible, horribly sad story, but extremely, holy cow. Like I i want my confession is that i didn't watch it until this week because in six in 2016 my daughter was one yeah and my wife and i who's also a huge fan of yours we just couldn't go there yeah we couldn't go there to me we couldn't go there to watch it never mind what you know never mind the people who've lived those circumstances and never mind people like you who've acted and gone there. And I'm curious, like when you have a role like that, where you go like, I'm going to have to give myself to this extraordinarily horrific scenario.

And like, is it worth it? Like, are there moments during the filming room where you go like, I don't know if this is worth what it's doing to me. It's interesting with that movie, with that movie, it always felt worth it. And it got really dark for me. And I haven't done a film that dark since then because it took so much for me to crawl out of the hole of that. I felt like I was haunted by the ghost of her for about a year afterwards because we filmed the movie in order. I had spent

nine months prepping it, just trying to put myself in situations of isolation, not going in the sun, growing out all my hair. I was doing all of these things and then I was just reading about all these true life stories. And so I had this power inside of me that when I was on set and maybe it was a rough day or a hard emotional day, I could remind myself that whatever I was experiencing was like infinitesimal compared to what the true stories were. And it didn't feel right to talk to those women that had been through this. And it didn't feel right to me whenever I saw them being asked to be interviewed or whatever. And so to me, it was like, if I can get as close to this and also recognize that the film is also an allegory,

it works on a metaphorical level, not just specifically a story level, a plot level, that I could get through it because it felt, I felt like it was a burden that I could carry. And I learned something about how plastic the brain is, that when you start to, my whole thing was like making myself believe, like people think that acting is lying

and maybe for some people it is, but it's not for me. It's like, I fully believe, I'm a terrible liar actually. I get red in the face, I have rosacea. It's really bad. I am too, I am too. It's the worst.

I wish I could lie better. It's horrible. So I have to believe what it is that I'm doing. And sometimes that's at the cost of my sanity. Yeah. No, that makes total sense to me. The other memory I have from train wreck is, I don't know if you remember this. We said goodbye to Amy and Bill's character at a funeral. And then they go, we were losing light. So they're trying to like squeeze in the scene before the end of the day. And then they're like, okay, Mike and Barry. And then you get in that car and then you drive away. And then, and action.

You get in the car. Do you remember this? Wait, we got in a car? We got in the car. Do you remember this? Wait, we got in a car? We got in the car, and then we're driving. I'm driving, and you're in the passenger seat. We're driving there. They didn't tell us where to drive the car. What?

They just go, keep driving. I go, where do I drive? They go, it's the AD. Keep going. Just keep going. Clear the frame. Just keep going until you clear the frame. And, of course, we don't know what the frame is.

No, we don't know what's going on. So we're driving. You and I are driving like, I swear to God, in like the middle of a cemetery. At this point, it's not even the movie set. We're just driving in a cemetery. And I thought, this is a great metaphor for making films, which is no matter how big the budget is or how small the budget is, at some point you're going to be in a car driving nowhere for no reason

and not understand if they've called cut. A hundred percent. A hundred percent. It's the thing that I actually love the most, especially now getting to be on, at that time, that was like a really big budget movie to me. Sure. Since then, you know, Captain Marvel is like in its other stratosphere, but it still has its challenges. Like I remember on Kong, which had a huge budget and we got rained out of our set, you know, rain came and I happened to be on the trailer side of it.

So I was safer than the people that were on the jungle set. But I remember finding it so profound that there was no money that could be thrown at that situation to fix it. Mother Nature said no, and that was what that was. And I just find it so perfect all the time that we try our best to make organization out of something that is complete chaos at all times.

It actually doesn't make sense, never makes sense. And to me, it's just like, especially by day one of filming, I just always look around on set and I'm like, all right, like, here we go. The train's moving and we just go. That's why I can, I think that's why I can never, here we go, the train's moving, and we just go. I think that's why I can never get into the red carpet spectacle of the awards shows.

Because I'm like, this isn't real. What are we doing here? It's funny. I think it's so funny. I just remember the first time I went, and I was very nervous, and I asked Emma Stone about it. I was like, I'm so scared to go. And she was like, you're inside the TV. And it changed everything for me. It changed everything for me. And suddenly I wasn't nervous because I was just like, whoa, I'm inside the TV. And I just kept saying that like all the time. Like anytime I was nervous,

I was like, I'm inside the TV. You know, people like me don't get to be inside the TV. And I just kept saying that like all the time. Like anytime I was nervous, I was like, I'm inside the TV. You know, people like me don't get to be inside the TV. We're watching the TV. I'm going to step away from my conversation with Brie Larson, Captain Marvel, to do a message from my super, the superhero of Mike Birbiglia, which is Captain Pizza. That's my superhero identity. As you know, I love pizza and I love companies that have a mission statement that I respect.

And I often reach out to them. Like I reached out to Bombas. I reached out to Spindrift. In this case, it's an app called Slice. It's the largest network of pizzerias, local pizzerias, that creates a better deal for local pizzerias. They work with over 16,000 local pizzerias. They work with over 16,000 local pizzerias, and they've saved local pizzerias $250 million in fees. Essentially, what they do is they have a flat fee that makes more money for the pizzeria than the typical, I won't name them, food ordering apps that you might use already.

I highly recommend it. I use it. You can download Slice and order today. Use promo code Burbigs, B-I-R-B-I-G-S, for $5 off your first app order. And now back to the show. This is a thing we do called the slow round, and it's sort of like memories and advice and things like that that you've gotten over the years. Is there any piece of advice that you were given through the years that you used and it worked?

Mm-hmm. When I was 15, I did this film called Hoot, which is, Jimmy Buffett produced it. It's about these owls that burrow in the ground and we're trying to save them from a pancake house being built on top of them. But Michael Chapman, incredible camera operator and DP, was working on it.

And at that time, I really thought that I wanted to be a DP. And so I'd always hang out with him and ask him questions. And at the end of the shoot, I said, if you could give me one piece of advice, what would it be? And he said, take a nap at lunch. That's great. It's perfect. Yeah.

It's 100% true. Oh, I love that. I think it's the piece of advice in my life I've used the most, period. I always take a nap at lunch. And sometimes it doesn't mean falling asleep. It's more like a meditation. Yeah. But it's so much stimulation.

And I am ultimately introverted. I'm very good at pretending to be extroverted. I need a lot of recharge time. Like as much energy as I put out, I need double that in recharge, which doesn't happen on a film set by the time the train's moving. Yes, of course. It's really hard for me to catch up. But if I can make sure that even 20 minutes at lunch is my eyes are closed, I'm rested,

it helps me get through the second half of the day. That's a great open-ended piece of advice for all professions, walks of life, is if you can find 10 or 20 minutes in your day to just shut your eyes and meditate or take a nap or do whatever you can. It's like the space is where you can find the energy for the rest of it, I think. Absolutely. Do you remember a smell from your childhood, like really good or really bad? bad? A smell from my childhood. The first one that comes to mind is pops, the cereal pops. Oh, I love that. I used to always eat it for breakfast. I remember being really young and I'd wake up before my parents and my mom would have the bowl set out and a little tiny pitcher

of milk so I could make my own cereal in the morning. And I'd watch cartoons. I'd watch Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles in the morning. And then it connects to what we're talking about and that I was eating pops when my mom told me I booked my first job. Oh my gosh. It was so special.

And it was right at the tail end. We were just packing up our stuff. And it had just at the tail end. We were just like packing up our stuff and it just been like, okay, well, pilot season didn't work. We've run out of money. We got to go back to Sacramento. And it was like right at the last second. Wow. I booked to do a skit for Jay Leno, a fake Barbie commercial.

And that extended our stay. And then that just kept happening. And that's basically been my entire career. It's like I've at least a dozen times hit my last dollar in my bank account and been like, well, I guess I'm going to have to move in with my parents. And then I get a random phone call that I booked something that I never thought I would have gotten. Wow.

Yeah. Do you have a memory of a movie or play or book where it was so hard and then you came out the other side? Oh, wow. I mean, I'd say I remember really being impacted by Moonlight really strongly. It really changed me. by Moonlight really strongly. It really changed me. My big takeaway with that was just how much,

if you are on the receiving end of someone expressing their vulnerability, how you respond to that vulnerability can change the course of someone's life. And that piece has lived with me forever since then. Yeah. There's a scene where the lead character expresses a truth about himself and it's received poorly. And it completely alters,

I'm being vague so that people can watch the movie if they haven't seen it, but it completely alters the course of his life. And you just see the impact of when we finally, because one of the things I'm so interested in is the thing that we feel the most shame about because I've had hundreds and hundreds of conversations with people about shame

where I ask them what they feel the most shame about. And I have yet to have met anybody who has expressed it to me. And I've thought, oh, you should have shame about that. 100% of the time, I'm like, you don't need to hold that. So the things that we're compacting inside of us, and it's one of the things I'm most interested in in my own personal work. It's why I do a lot of therapy is I like to dig in and find what is the thing that I think is the most unlovable parts of me? And can I put that out on screen and live with it?

Oh my gosh. I love that. It's huge. That's the advice I'm going to give to someone else. You know what Brie Larson told me? Yeah. Well, you know, it's funny because that's part of what one of the questions from the slow round is related to that, which is what do people like most about you and what do people dislike most about you?

It's the same thing. And I've had it,'ve had it once where I, the only time in my career where I was on two sets at once, which I won't do again because I'm too hyper-focused, but it just so happened I had to do two jobs at once. And I was going back to back between these two sets. And I learned that because I came from the indie film world, projects like Room, for example,

where people couldn't come in and out of Room when we were making it. It was too small. And so I had to be the one to reset everything, reset the cup for the new take. Oh my gosh, yeah. Do Jacob's hair continuity if something fell out of place. And I felt like I was short-term 12, the same thing.

It was like, I knew the importance of continuity and being a team player to get this done so i can be very hands-on i am the person to help move things if we if we quickly need to move to another set there's a company move on the last day of captain marvel i tried to help the camera department move their camera equipment out and they were like stop um yeah so it's interesting because I was on one set where the director was like, I love this about you. Like, it's so amazing that like you're everything.

Like you'll tell everyone to be quiet on set. You'll make sure that people are cared for and that people are comfortable. You'll do all these things. You'll make sure the continuity is right. But then I went on another set where they were like, can you not do that? Like, can you just do the acting part

and not the other things? Can you just do the acting part? Like, we just want the acting part. And then like, so just come in and then leave. And it was so bizarre. But I learned, you know, I just take it for what it is. And on the jobs where people are like, I just did a job recently,

or at the end, the producers were like, I really appreciate that about you. I was like, oh, I'm glad. You know, some people think it's bossy. I feel like it's a team player. Keegan-Michael Key was like that when we filmed Don't Think Twice where he was sort of the team captain of the squad where it's like I was directing, but he was keeping up morale and making sure we're moving it along. So much of it is like, yeah, you're just a team. It's funny when you see the Oscars and you go like, and people go, I want to thank this person,

and this person, and this person. You're like, enough with the thank yous. But it's like, no, actually, all those people actually, and it's like a tenth of how many people actually made the movie take place. Oh, yeah. Definitely. Especially once you start getting into like a Captain Marvel where there's just tons and tons of people you'll never meet in

various countries doing CGI and making you look cool that you'll never get to thank personally, most likely. Yes. It takes so many people, but I, and I don't know if this has just come from indie filmmaking background or my fight for survival or just my need for control. But I believe for myself that if I, on a call sheet, they number the actors. It's very weird. But if I'm number one, I consider myself a department head and that's just how it goes. Because I know from being lower, a lower number, what it feels like when number one is late or doesn't know their lines or is holding up the day or is arguing or takes forever. It changes everything. It changes everything. So the ripple effects are enormous for that. And so I also feel like actors, because of the way we have sets set up, we actually have this like division of cast and crew.

We call it cast and crew, which blows my mind. I'm like, can we just all be crew? Because automatically we step on set and it's like, and it's actors versus crew instead of us working together. And I've just seen so many beautiful moments where maybe there was a problem with the set and the set didn't get built in time and we've lost the hours of our day and it's a day we're doing

stunts and the stunt department comes in and nails everything and we make our day and they get to be the hero of the day. And I think with actors, a lot of the time there's this fear of letting us know when there's a problem. And I've been very clear with productions where I'm like, tell me all the problems, tell me everything that's happening. Because if I know we're short on time or when we need to get out of here, allow me, if it's possible, to be the one to make up the day. Let me be a part of it. Yeah. I'd love to be a part of it. I'd love for my little area that I can participate in to help move this thing forward instead of this idea that everything I do is so fragile and that if someone looks at me the wrong way that it's going to

like set me off. It's not. It's like, I expect chaos when I show up on set. Stepping away from my conversation with Brie Larson to send a shout out to Helix Mattresses. Helix Mattresses, or as my daughter calls it, the Hewix, is just the most comfortable mattress I've ever had. I mean, look, I don't know. I don't know a lot about mattresses. I just have a serious sleep disorder where I jump through a second story window. I'm not saying I'm some kind of expert, but I am saying it's the most comfortable mattress I've ever slept on. They got soft, medium, and firm. What you do is you go on helixsleep.com slash berbig, so you take

a two-minute sleep quiz, and they match you with a customized mattress that will give you the best night of sleep of your life. My family loves it. I love it. My in-laws love it. Helix was awarded number one best mattress pick of 2020 by GQ as well as Wired Magazine. Right now, Helix is offering up to $200 off all mattress orders and two free pillows for our listeners here at Working It Out at helixsleep.com slash burbigs.

And now, back to the show. Is there anything that you learned for Captain Marvel because you're so physical in it that could have a practical application in your life? Obviously, you can't shoot fireballs at people, but is there any kick or punch or anything where you're like, oh yeah, that could come in handy? Well, yes. The amount of judo that I did, it definitely twisted my brain a little bit. And there were times where I would visualize doing judo throws on people if they were not being nice to me. But one of the bigger things

overall was how much confidence I gained by playing a confident character. Oh, interesting. I'd always played, if you think about before that, none of them were as confident as Carol was. And in fact, if something like Room, I'd spend all this time on this character. And then there's this time that I would give myself afterwards. It's almost like as you're unpacking your suitcase, I'd be unpacking my mind when I got home. And I'd go, okay, in embodying this character,

what do I want to keep? What are the things that I learned about myself or about what's inside of me that I want to take forward? And a lot of the time when I was playing these darker characters, I'd be like, I just don't want to keep it. I don't want to go to the dark place. I just want to work on getting back. But with Carol, it was so interesting because I left that film going, I think I just kind of want to stay like her. I think I just want to hold on to more of this, of her self-assuredness and her confidence and her willingness to apologize.

There were just way more things in her that I wanted to keep than lose. Yeah. That's so fascinating. I wonder what the practical application of that is because obviously I'm not going to be in a superhero film anytime soon, but I'd like to have more confidence.

I don't know, you never know. But I'd like to have more confidence. I don't know. You never know. But I'd like to have more confidence in my life. But it's like, yeah, I don't know. I don't know how you arrive there exactly. Without acting, you mean? Yeah, yeah. Oh, I think you just try it. I really think it's just making the choice to live life like it's an experiment

and go, what if I slightly altered this? If I slightly tweaked this, next time I have... Understanding that sometimes, I don't know, an interaction happens and you fail at it. You're like, oh, they were mean to me, or I feel bad about myself now. But if you can go, I actually look forward to being in that situation again. I had it with confrontation. I hated confrontation. And instead of going, oh gosh, like I feel so bad and I don't want to tell them, dah, dah, dah. I'd go, I can't wait. I hope that I have to deal with confrontation three times this week. I really hope that someone does something wrong. So I have to confront them three times and that'll give me the reps to be able to get better at it. It's like,

bring it on. And I've had the opportunity to even, weirdly, I've played roles that I feel like certain scenes have magically been almost like a redo of a situation that I lived in my life that I had thought about and gone, gosh, I wish I would have stood up for myself. There's one situation in particular where there was somebody that I wish I had advocated for myself. And then weirdly, like 10 years later, I had a scene where I got to go off on someone. And I was like, this is my opportunity to get it all out, to actually relive it.

And I relived it and it went horrible. I felt terrible at the end. It didn't make me feel any better. And I was like, good to know. And so I can put that to rest because I know that I had this opportunity to explore it in this like safe space and know like, okay, that, that doesn't work. So I think in, in life you have to just take every opportunity that you can. It is amazing to be an actor in this way for me, because I feel like I get to test it in places that are not on the people around me. Yeah. No. And I have that. I think like I get to test it in places that are not on the people around me.

Yeah. No, and I have that. I think creators have that when you're writing something or directing something. Also, I had that with Don't Think Twice where it's like I was writing this movie for a couple years about jealousy and about this group of best friends who are in an improv group and they all want to be on a Saturday Night Live type of show. And then one of them, Keegan McKinley-Hawkey is cast and then the rest of them aren't. And it's about their jealousy and dealing with stuff.

I swear to God, Brady, two years into writing this movie, I realized what it was about. Oh yeah, of course. Like I was writing the whole story and I go, oh my God, this is about me and this person and this person. Isn't that amazing? It's such a weird experience. And even when I watched the movie come out and I would go to Q&As and so I'd watch it,

I'd experience also new versions of it. And I'd go, I made the story, I created the story, and I didn't even fully understand it. If there's one thing I do know, and people ask me all the time, like, what do you look for in a script? Or like, what are you looking for? What do you want to do next? I'm like, I want the thing that grabs me, that's pulling me towards it, and I don't know why. That's the only thing that I know about choosing a script. Because if I know like, oh, I want to do this because I want to explore XYZ part of myself,

or I'm doing it because I want to show people this. It's not interesting. It's like, well, I already figured out what it is. So I might as well just like do it in my bedroom and forget about it. But if there's something gnawing at you that you're like, and I had this crazy moment during Room where I didn't know why it was, that story pulled me so hard to the point where I was completely in it, underneath it. And there was one moment where I was doing the scene where my son is wrapped up in this rug and he has to pretend that he's dead. It's really a horrible, horrible, horrible scene. And I had always viewed it as what it was. And it wasn't until I was in the scene, doing it, holding it, having the experience of this rug with my son in it being ripped from my hands.

Yeah. Oh, I'm getting chills just talking about it. That I realized that for me, the story was about protecting my inner child. That for me, it was about the son representing a younger version of myself that I wanted better for, that I wanted to do right by. a younger version of myself that I wanted better for, that I wanted to do right by. And it freaked me out. And I was like, oh my gosh, that's what it is. And I remember being able to simultaneously hold the moment of being in the scene while also some other part of me was processing,

oh my gosh, this is what it is. Like, this is why I'm here. And then it keeps changing and changing and changing. And the movie comes out, like you're saying, but it is amazing to me. It's how we can feel this pull, not know why, and fully throw ourselves into it. And it just continues to open, even for the makers, even for the creators that are making it, not just for the viewer, but for all the people making it. What happens when you look like that rug scene, for example, which is so intense and I had to stop the movie. I get it. Take some time and then play it again. Yeah. So intense.

But what happens when you're on a set and you make and you find that in yourself, what is drawing you to it, a part of yourself to it. And the director has a different thing that he or she is pulling them to it. And those two things are not the same. I think it's great. I think it's great. I think it's important actually, because I want the work that I do to work on multiple levels. And one of the things

that's so interesting about when a film comes out, because it's not theater, I don't get the immediate reaction. I don't know a lot of the time what people are thinking unless I decide to log onto Twitter, which sounds insane to do. But the one opportunity that I have is when the film comes out and people come up to you and I've had the opportunity to take films all over the world. And it's so interesting depending on your background and where you've come from, you'll pick up different things from it. Room, Captain Marvel, I mean, these are short-term 12. I've had so many offshoot conversations that were not what I was intending to do at all. It wasn't my intention, but they took something completely different from it and are using that in their life and integrating it in their life.

So to me, it's like, I mean, I don't enjoy having conflict with a director. Definitely happens, but to me, it's like it should be working on multiple levels. It should be working it out. It should be working it out. working on multiple levels. It should be working it out. It should be working it out. What if every episode was just leading to a plug of the podcast you're listening to? You're working it out.

Stepping away from my conversation with Brie Larson to send a shout out to All Form Sofas. Sofas? Mike, it seems like all Mike likes is pizza and soft things like beds and mattresses and sofas. There's some truth to that. Okay, so the folks at Helix, obviously my favorite mattress, they decided they're going to take what they're doing in the bedroom and they're going to start making sofas.

They launched a whole new company called Allform. They're making the best sofas we've ever seen. I decked out my whole office slash working it out studio with their furniture. I love it. It's colorful. It's comfy. It's easy to put together. You can put it together without tools. Just ship it in a box.

This is a key thing to know. Free shipping and a hundred day trial. If you don't like your all form in a hundred days, they'll give you refund. And they'll pick it up for free. Why am I so angry? Why am I so angry? They also have a forever warranty. Definitely try out this Allform stuff. These sofas are great. Go to allform.com slash berbigs.

They are offering 20% off all orders from working it out listeners at allform.com slash burbix. And now, back to the show. So this is the material that I'm working on currently. And this is Brie Larson themed material. Okay, great. Wait, this is your material? This is about my experience. Yeah, this is my experience.

When I was on your podcast, I was like, you got to come on Working It Out because I've been doing on stage. I've been telling the story. Yeah, I've been saying stuff on stage. What? Well, it's about people being angry with me for playing your husband. Okay, great. In a movie, right?

Okay. Okay. And so then I was like, when I was on Learning Lots, I was like, Bree, it just hit me. Like, if you would be willing to come on Working Out, this would be so great because I could run by you this material that's about people's anger towards me for playing your husband in a film.

So basically the bit, and it's of course a work in progress, and I don't know where it's going to land. anger towards me for playing your husband in a film. So basically the bit, and it's of course a work in progress, and I don't know where it's going to land. It might end up being an essay of some kind or whatever. An op-ed? An op-ed, yes. It could be in The Atlantic, for example. This seems really important.

Okay, tell me. Yeah, yeah. No, this is a seminal cultural moment. But I was in Trainwreck and I played your husband. And every once in a while, people remember this and they are furious about it. Like they'll see it on TV. They'll see the movie come on TV and they'll just say, I'm taking this grievance to the internet.

Because the internet has a broad range of purposes. You can register to vote. You can engage with strangers on the history of apartheid. And you can complain about the unfairness of Mike Birbiglia's movie character being married to Brie Larson's movie character in the movie Trainwreck. Oh, and Brie, there's more. Okay, tell me more.

There's a lot more. People bully me on the internet. Some of them don't even tag me, which is my fault for even looking up my name every once in a while. They'll go, Mike Birbiglia is Brie Larson's husband, like all caps.

And I just think, who wins in that tweet? Does Brie just win more? You know, like, who wins in that tweet? Does Brie just win more? You know, like, sure, she's fantastic. She's a wonderful person. But I'm the person who played her husband, the plot point of which is that she has settled in her life. The plot point was not that she was marrying up.

And I, like a hero, stepped into the role. Unbelievable. And then I go on Twitter afterwards, search my name, and it says Mike Bermudez plays Brie Larson's husband. In what universe? And I'm like, movies? In this one? Yeah, this one.

This made-up thing. Pretend. The same universe where Tom Cruise plays a Nazi but doesn't have a German accent. You know, movies. Yes, movies. The same universe where a medium-sized alien heals boo-boos with his finger and eats Reese's Pieces. Yes. You know, the same universe where Tom Hanks plays a foot piano

at a toy store, and it isn't the same size as an actual foot piano. In what universe? And then I say, or maybe the Marvel universe where she plays Captain Marvel. A universe that also includes the Incredible Hulk, who, like me, jumps through windows and walls, as

well as Ant-Man, played by Paul Rudd, whom I bear a faint resemblance to in this universe. So then, I got a little bit more, a little bit more. It's all just insanity. And of course, this is a work in progress. And by the way, if Martians, you know, on another planet saw this movie,

they would go, I buy it. They're both humans. Yeah, exactly. And I think it's worth noting the movie was directed by Judd Apatow, who is married in real life to Leslie Mann in this universe. That's his real life. He's not playing the role of Judd Apatow. So this idea that you can't punch above your weight class in a relationship

is just not realistic. It actually happens all the time. I did it. I married my wife, Jen, in this universe. She's way above my... So I... My wife and I talk about this all the time because I always say to my wife, Jen, that I married up.

And she very generously says she married up. And it's a cute thing. And then one night we're out with another couple. And we said this and they said they both married down. And we both had this thought, which is, I don't think they should be married. I think that's part of a relationship is that we all should be under the illusion of all times that we're marrying up. Yes. And sort of the final thought of it is,

but I get why people get upset about this, even though it's a movie. It's unfair that my character would be married to this extraordinary person. But you know what else is unfair? Is life. Yeah. Life is very unfair.

Yeah. Yeah. So that's basically what I have so far. So it's a work in progress. Wow. I think it's good. Thanks. And exactly to your point,

like movies are not accurate. No. They're not made to be accurate. They're just made to feel and for you to take something from it. I mean, I feel like there's a lot more to take from Trainwreck than Why is mike berbiglia with brie larson that feels like we've sort of missed the point we sort of missed the point of watching the film

in my mind but you know whatever films work on multiple levels as i said previously and this is one level of it i guess and also by the way, if you're watching the movie and you go, and I would accept this criticism of our marriage in the movie. It's like, it doesn't seem like they get along. Yes, fair. You know what I mean? They don't seem to enjoy themselves. They shouldn't be married.

I just also want to know who these people are that are writing these comments. I get so interested in the life of a troll or the life of an angry person on Twitter about something like this. It's one thing to be actually upset about a real issue and wanting to amplify an issue. But when you're really digging into this, I just want to go, are you okay? What's going on with you? What's going on? What are you projecting onto this? I'd like to understand because this is odd. This is an odd choice. Yes. It's an odd choice and maybe I should

dig up some of these folks and interview them on the show and talk to them about this because it would be good to dig in. Oh, I'd love it. I would listen to that for sure. But I didn't help you with your bit. Do you need help with it? I mean listen to that for sure. But I didn't help you with your bit. Do you need help with it? I mean, first of all, it's cathartic for me to say the bit to you because otherwise, if I was going to like put it on television or something like that, like I would feel like I'd have to email you and be like, hey, do you mind if I say this thing? Because you're in it and whatever. And so the fact that, are you good with it? Are you okay with it? I mean, it sounds to me like I'm only receiving compliments in this bit.

Yeah, yeah, it's all compliments. I'm only receiving compliments. Feel free to throw in some jabs. What would my jabs be? Well, just that it's like, why are you making her such a big deal? Like maybe I'm a catch. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Why are you flipping it this way?

Like what are you basing this off of? What is the rating system here? Yeah, yeah, what, yeah, exactly. Why are you flipping it this way? What are you basing this off of? What is the rating system here? Yeah, yeah, what's the rating system? You're a really upstanding guy. You seem like a good dad. Yeah. You're very supportive and helpful. I'm a good dad, I'm a good husband.

We communicate. You're there to communicate and be helpful. You're of great support. You leave the room when you're asked to leave the room. It seems like you're doing it all really well. That's a very funny take on it, which is to somehow become a little braggy in the middle of it. Yeah. Because it's a very unexpected thing in the self-deprecating bit to be like, here's some great things about me. Yeah. In your hatred, you missed all this stuff. I'm a good dad. I taught my daughter how to swim. I taught her how to play soccer.

No one's ever asked me about the backstory of my character. Allow me to tell you about all of the charitable work that I'm doing. Do you know what my job is in train wreck? I'm helping people. So what's Bree's character doing? Nothing. Nothing. What's her story?

Nothing. Nothing. What was the one tag too is i go it's the universe of a movie do people understand they're watching a movie and that i am a person who is on social media and you didn't even use my character's name. It's Tom No Last Name. By the way, the first draft of it used to be Vinny, who in real life it's based on, is Kim's

husband Vinny. But then when it was me, they were like, he's not Vinny. He's, Vinny. But then when it was me, they were like, he's not Vinny. He's not Vinny. My dad's name is Vinny. I didn't know that. That's how much I'm not my father's son. When I'm cast in a movie as Vinny, they're like, no, this isn't going to work.

But also, isn't that kind of a flex? That they were like, we love Mike as this role so much. Let's think about changing the name. Let's make this for him. Let's not fit it into what we had originally agreed upon. They thought, what's another boring name? Ah, Tom. Tom.

Seems like a Tom. That works. That works. So the final thing that we do on the show is called Working It Out for a Cause. And the guest chooses a nonprofit that the guest thinks is doing a particularly good job right now. I contribute to them, and then I encourage listeners to contribute as well. And the link is in the show notes. Is there any nonprofit you think is doing a particularly good job right now? Yes. I wanted to talk about an organization that I've been working with recently. It's the Jewish Museum Movies That Matter program. It is supported by the

Nissan Foundation. That's how I got connected with them. And I films to 2000 high school and junior high students in the New York area. And basically what they do is they play films and then they discuss them and they pick apart representation, identity, and they talk about it. And a lot of them are people that are either interested in movies, maybe want to get into film. It's a free program. And a lot of them are people that are either interested in movies, maybe want to get into film. It's a free program. And I think it's just so powerful. I had the experience of doing a little Q&A with some of them.

And the questions were just so smart, so spot on. And I'm a big believer in that dialogue, that representation dialogue. And so I'm just proud of the work that they're doing. And I think I'd love to contribute more. And if people want to help with that, I think it is the big question mark with where we go forward with film and TV is like, are we representing everybody and how do we include everyone? And I do think like having space

for dialogue and conversation would have helped me so much when I was younger. Like I said earlier, how much I didn't feel represented and I'm a white woman. So if I don't feel represented, then chances are a lot of people don't feel represented. Right. So I'm going to contribute to them and I'm going to link to them in the show notes and I encourage people to do the same. And thank you, Bree. This is such a joy. Thank you. Thanks for asking me to come on. This was great.

Maybe in conclusion, I'll say I'm really glad that we're friends in this universe. Me say, I'm really glad that we're friends in this universe. Me too. I'm really glad that we're friends in this universe. That's going to do it for another episode of Working It Out with Brie Larson. I couldn't more highly recommend her podcast, Learning Lots, particularly this Bill Hader episode where he talks about anxiety. I got a lot out of it. It made me feel a lot better and made me feel a bit of calm,

which is what I felt when I talked to Free Larson. Holy cow. What a kind and talented person she is. And I think that bit is on its way. I think in what universe is gonna be part of something. It's gonna be part of something special. Thanks for joining us. Our producers of Working It Out are myself,

along with Peter Salamone and Joseph Birbiglia, consulting producer Seth Barish, sound mix by Kate Balinski, associate producer Mabel Lewis. Special thanks to Mike Insiglieri, Mike Berkowitz, as well as Marissa Hurwitz and Josh Hopfall. Special thanks, as always, to Jack Antonoff and Bleachers for their music.

And, as always, a special thanks to my wife, the poet J. Hope Stein. We wrote a little book. It's called The New One, Painfully True Stories from a Reluctant Dad with poems by J-Hope Stein. It's at your local bookstore. As always, a special thanks to our daughter, Una, who created this radio fort. And thanks most of all to you who are listening. Tell your friends! Go on the Apple Podcast and write a few stars and a thing that you'll like about the show or tweet about it or Instagram about it.

And that's the best way, in addition to your friends, to tell your enemies. Because we're working it out. We'll see you next time, everybody.