Mike Birbiglia's Working It Out - 48. Judd Apatow Returns: Judd Has Notes

Episode Date: July 26, 2021

Judd Apatow recently saw Mike's entire new show in progress, and he's got a lot of feedback. As they break apart Judd's notes, they veer into topics like dark joy vs. light joy, why we exercise, and how many days per week it's appropriate to eat ice cream. Plus, Mike details a serious argument he had with his daughter Oona about dinosaurs. This episode is an all-timer. Judd and Mike are truly working it out. https://826national.org/

Hello, everybody. We are back with a new episode of Working It Out. This is your Working It Out host and tour guide, Mike Perpiglia. We are working out new jokes, new material, new stories in real time with creators. I wanted to announce something that's very, very exciting. The paperback version of the new one, my book that I wrote with my wife, Painfully True Stories from a Reluctant Dad

with poems by J. Hope Stein comes out on paperback September 7th. And then we're going to do like a live virtual paperback show celebration on September 10th. And we're going to sort of team up with some local bookstores across the country. So if you go to a local bookstore, tell them to message me on Instagram. I'm at Berbiggs. And we're going to try to get a bunch of local bookstores involved because you should be supporting your local bookstores.

As I always say, I love local bookstores. And but today on the show, we have one of the great comedy minds, Judd Apatow. His resume is 100 miles long. Girls, knocked up. The king of Staten Island, 40-year-old virgin. I was in his movie Trainwreck, you know, just on and on and on and on. He is something of a legend. He came to one of my live shows recently. I've been doing live shows. I actually just added some shows in Milwaukee and Denver and Chicago, a whole bunch of stuff this fall. But Judd came to one of my shows as a friend,

and he said, hey, I have notes. Do you want me to give them to you now? Or do you want me to just come on the podcast? Because that's the premise of your podcast. You're working it out. So I said, well, certainly. I think podcast. So here we are, my conversation,

which really gets into the nitty-gritty of craft and creation and jokes and stories and narrative. And it's really nerdy, and it's really fun. I hope you enjoy my conversation with Judd Apatow. So, this is a very unique episode of Working It Out. Because we're here with Judd Apatow, one of the great filmmakers, film producers of this era, and my friend, who was on the show last summer remotely.

And we've been on the phone pretty regularly for the last 15 months. We talk about the show. Judd listens to the show. And then the other day, Judd came to the live show. It was at City Winery. I'm doing a whole bunch of shows there through the months of July. And keep an eye out for it, August, September. And he had notes. And he called me the next day. And he goes, Mike, I have notes. We should do a Working It Out episode, which is very presumptuous, Judd. episode, which is very presumptuous, John.

Presumptuous for me to think my notes are valuable or that they should be aired publicly. I think both. Isn't that the point of the show? This is my question. So you have the podcast. Right. The podcast is interviews with people in the frame of you trying to write the next piece, your next theater piece.

And so you try some of the bits on people. Yep. And they also try some jokes on you that they're working on. But the question is, how deep do you want to go on the podcast because you don't want to give away the show? Right. But you want the show to be about developing the show.

So then we wonder, what's the reason to not give away the show? 100%. And I was talking to Neil Brennan about a similar topic the other day, having to do with generosity between comedians and artists. So he was saying, if you have a tag for your friend, why not give them the tag? He said it's almost a moral imperative because it's not your joke.

And if you have an idea for them, just give it to them. And you've been a great friend over the years. You've given me notes on my shows and my movies. And actually, I would venture to say, you don't have to name names, I'd venture to say you've been a friend to a lot of film projects and shows that you're not even credited on. I mean, it's fun when people show you their work

because you don't care that much about it. And as a result... You're not invested in it in the same way. Yes. And so you feel very free with your creativity and it's an interesting aspect to it, which is if I'm making a movie, which I am right now, I'm nervous every second of the day. I'm anxious if it's going to come out or not.

I wake up from dreams where I'm looking for trims. Oh, my gosh, yes. But when I watch your show, because I don't really care, I have a very clear, creative view of it because I don't have that level of, if I don't figure this out, it will destroy me. I understand. And so I'm actually more creative with you than with me. Well, you're riskier with other people's work than you are with your own. And it's, you know, one of the things I was saying to you when you called me, you go, like, I have these notes. Let's do an episode. And my whole thing is, yes, let's do an episode, but let's not give away too much for the people who are going to come see the show.

This is from Boston and Austin and Denver and all these places. I'm going to work on this show for another year. You came with Jenny Connor to the show, and she goes, I think you're done. And I go, no, no, I got another year. You came with Jenny Connor to the show and she goes, I think you're done. And I go, no, no, I got another year. Well, the funny thing is when you watch the show, it's really funny and you get a standing ovation at the end.

And so you've done this thing which is very smart, which is it's already incredibly entertaining. Yes, it's got a ton of jokes. People do leave and they go, that was great. It's done. Yes.

But when we watch it, we know, well, you're trying to tell a story. You're trying to get some emotional ideas across. There's thematic ideas you're developing. So even though it kills already, it's really not where you want it to be yet. I think that's right. And I think the reason why, and this is what you and I have in common as creators, you're primarily a filmmaker. I'm primarily a creator of these solo shows and stand-up.

And the thing we have in common is both of us are attempting to have people come to our thing, laugh, which is key and which happened the other night at City Winery, and then also feel something. And I think your take was, I'm not feeling enough yet. Is that safe to say? Or it's not all lining up. Yes. And the art of what you're doing is you're trying to do things

which are confronting for people. Sure. When you talk about health and mortality and how we live our lives, you're asking people to go somewhere deep with you. But you can't really do that for an entire show. So there's moments. Yes. So for instance, if you saw the Bruce Springsteen show.

Yes, on Broadway. It's funny and there's great stories and some of it is light and then suddenly he's talking about Vietnam. Yes. And he takes you there. And then it gets light and he tells stories and then suddenly he's talking about Vietnam. Yes. And he takes you there. And then it gets light and he tells stories, and then suddenly he's talking about Clarence Clemons

and what the relationship was. And how he passed away, yeah. And so you can't hit people with a hammer the entire time. You're trying to figure out when is the moment I have these grace notes. Yes. And these revelations. Yes. So, yes, it's entertaining and it's how do you do that?

And the example I always think about is I always think about the end of Terms of Endearment. Oh, my gosh, yeah. When he shows. It's a James L. Brooks film, one of my favorite films of all time. Yeah, everyone should see it, but it's about a family, and at the end Jack Nicholson is with this little boy, and he's showing it. He's like, you want to see my pool?

And for whatever reason, it destroys you. It destroys me. How do you get to that? This is for people who don't know. After Jack Nicholson is really this harsh, harsh character who is a former astronaut, and he like rough around the edges and he drinks and you get the sense like this guy's not helping anybody. And at the end you see

this nice gesture. And it's the whole movie. And it's magic. It's truly magic. A performance of the choice to do it. You have a sense that that's going to happen again? Yes, that he's changed. Yeah, he's changed.

Off of one sentence. Yes. Let me show you my pool. I'm sure I'm quoting it wrong. But in all of these projects, you're hoping something like that happens. Yes. In the writing and the performing and the execution. So it's really fun to watch your show and wonder, you know, where should you do it?

Yeah. How would you do it? Because when I watched it, I just thought these digressions are so important because you can't be on it the whole time. So you have a section about wrestling in high school. Yeah. Which makes my brain explode because the humiliation of being bad at sports affects you the rest of your life. For sure. You know, there are people who are great at sports and they have a certain confidence in themselves.

A quarterback or just someone who played well. And then there were these kids who were nerds, but they were kind of good at sports. They were scrappy. Yeah, yeah. And then there were people like me. I wouldn't say I was just terrible. I would choke. You know, I'm the person that's going to – it could be 5-0 in tennis

and I'm going to lose the set somehow. And it affected how you felt about yourself. So when you talked about being on the wrestling team, being bad, not even wrestling almost ever and telling a story about finally having to wrestle. Yeah, one of the jokes, I won't give away the whole thing, but it's like I was in the 152-pound weight class, and they paired me because I was so bad with our team's 102-pound wrestler, and he would pin me multiple times per practice.

It was like a paperweight being pinned by paper. And it's true. This guy, Pete Kwan, and he was a phenomenal wrestler. He pinned me every day. It was like, he's 50 pounds lighter than me. And they're just throwing you to him as chum. Yeah. But I always wondered, because my friends wrestled, why they wrestled.

Why they wrestled. Why is this the sport? Why do you like doing this? Why do you like grappling like this? It's so one-on-one. Yes. And it's one of the hardest sports you could ever do. But the idea that interested me, which I didn't think you'd spend enough time on, is the decision to do it and the decision to not quit when you're clearly terrible at it.

That's hilarious. And what signal is it sending to your fellow students? Because we only do things to get them to like us or think we're masculine or to change our reputation what did what did signal did you think you were sending to everybody by remaining on the team that's right first of all first of all great question and and and to contextualize this this question my director seth and i would describe what you're saying as like a dramaturgical note, which is to say that you watch the show and you go, I have some questions. And then the questions hopefully lead to maybe some material that ends up filling out the show and giving it more depth.

And I feel like if I were to guess on your film, when you're producing films, you ask a lot of questions like this from your filmmakers you're working with. Well, it's most of the work. Yes. I feel like the jokes are hard and the story construction is hard. But really, once you get to the core questions and you define people very deeply,

then hopefully sparks fly, comedy flies. Because you've thought about the 40 old virgin you've sat in a room with yeah corral for a hundred hours and talked about his personality and his history and why he's in this position and how he feels when he's around people and then then suddenly you could put him in any situation you know what he's gonna do i it's funny you should bring a four-year-old virgin because I'm going to circle back to that in a second. But first I'll answer your question about wrestling, which is I think the reason I didn't quit is twofold.

One, my brother Joe had convinced me to join the wrestling team because he had wrestled. He's four and a half years older than me. And he told me it would build character. And I didn't even really know what that meant. How old are you? I was like 15 years old. And you wanted character. I didn't even really know what that meant. How old are you? I was like 15 years old. And you wanted character. I guess so. I mean, it's amazing how like you don't even really clock what

these things fully mean. I associated character with giving birth or joining the army and I knew I wasn't going to join the army and I thought giving birth would cause permanent damage to my penis. But it was character. And then here's why. That's why I joined. Why I didn't quit was that Coach Shan, Bill Shan, real name. If I use it, I'll come up with a fake name. He was just real tough. And he was real, like, it was inconceivable.

And he was nice, but he was tough, stern. And I thought, I can't, I could never tell him. Like, he'd get too- I can't be a bailer on this guy. No, like, he'd get too mad at me. That's how I felt when I worked at El Torito. What's El Torito? It was a Mexican restaurant, and I was busing tables there in high school. And the manager, Jorge, just liked me.

And he was just nice to me. He seemed happy to see me. Like, you got a kick out of me. You know, when you're a kid and you're 16, that seems like a 50-year-old man. The grown-up person gets a kick out of you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He might have been 24 years old.

Right, right, right. Sure, yeah. Who, we'll never know. All grown-ups are the same age when you're 16. But I remember being devastated at quitting. Yeah. And he looked devastated. Oh my gosh.

Like he was going to miss me. And not in a creepy way, just some strange relationship at El Torito, which was mainly about refilling the chips in the salsa. Sure, sure. But I get what you mean. Sometimes that's all it takes is one person who seems to care a little bit, even though you're terrible, and you can't look them in the eye and go,

I don't have it in me to do this. And it's a lot of father themes which run through the show, and I'll pitch you a little material later that has some father stuff in it because I talk a lot about my dad in the show and his health struggles and the way that my family doesn't really say I love you is a big thing that runs through the show. That's a big thing. I've heard that from so many people.

Yeah. That their parents don't say I love you. And I love them and they love me and I get it. But for whatever reason, we just don't say I love you. And it's not uncommon. And I wonder if it's a generational thing. I remember I dated this woman and we were going to go on vacation together. I was very young, early, early, early 20s.

And I was excited I was going to play the improv somewhere. And she was coming with me. And we were on the plane. And the plane was kind of empty. And she didn't sit right next to me. Like she was taking advantage of the many empty seats. Sure. But it felt a little weird that she wanted that extra space.

And then at some point, I said, I love you, and she said, you say I love you too much. Oh, my gosh, no. And I'm like, what? Yeah, you say it all the time. And maybe I was a young, needy kid. How old were you? I probably was 22 22 something like that so you were getting ahead of it a little bit in the relationship

perhaps well we said it but we broke up like three days later oh wow but it was brutal yeah but it's the flip side of the no one ever says it. It's the someone who says it too much. And man, if you're not into it with someone and they're saying it too much, that is a bit of a nightmare. She also said something to me, which was, one day you're going to realize how little you know right now. And she's right, of course. And it cut so deep.

Because I also didn't completely understand it. I just thought, it's like a koan or something. I had someone say that to me once, a coworker. And the person said, and it cut me. He goes, the problem with you is you don't know what you don't know. I was like, oh, Jesus. That's it. He's right.

But that's true of everyone at all times, including now. Right. Of course, we all don't know what we don't know. So that's just perfectly mean in a way you can't argue with. Truly mean. Because it's true of them. Stepping away from my conversation with Judd Apatow to send a shout-out to one of our sponsors, MeUndies. MeUndies Underwear.

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That's meundies.com slash pervigs. And now, back to the show. One thing I have to call out is that, so you said, let's do notes on the show. And I go, well, we have to be careful because last time we did a podcast together, my other that, so you said, let's do notes on the show. And I go, well, we have to be careful because last time we did a podcast together, my other podcast, the old ones,

in a review, and I'm not going to say the reviewer's name, I'm not going to say what the review was, in a review of the new one, my last show, the Broadway show, the reviewer quoted you saying, Mike, you're not nice. Everyone thinks you're nice, but you're not nice. And what's amazing about that is the reviewer used it sort of against me and said, that's the problem with the show. Mike's not nice or something like that, whatever it is. And what's fascinating is that, and you and I have talked about this at length, comedy actually isn't about being nice.

this at length comedy actually isn't about being nice comedy is about conflict and calibrating conflict with um humor and a journey of some kind and i think i mean that's that's really paraphrasing something but so so to say someone's not nice is like well what else well i first of all with distance distance and the success of the show. That was a review of the off-Broadway version. Off-Broadway show was the early version, yep. With distance, it's hysterical. It's a hysterical, vicious review. And you remember those your whole life sometimes.

And we do live in a different world where reviews don't have the impact that they once had. Now it's really like Metacritic or Rotten Tomatoes for movies where it's, people just want to see the number of percentages of good ones and they won't even read the reviews. No one even reads and they just go, they want to sense. But in the theater, there is still some weight to a few places that can help you get your show going or not going. And that one is so mean because it's 80% positive. And then at the end basically says that I said Mike isn't really nice. And then.

And we're friends. And you said it like in like good spirits. Yes. As a total compliment, I meant it generally just more like that's what works in Mike's work. I meant it generally just more like that's what works in Mike's work, the presentation of positive, sweet person, but also emitting really dark feelings and complex thoughts and problems. So it was just a funny way to say Mike's not nice, really.

He's complicated. Yes. It's not just like simple and soft and sweet. This is dark stuff. But she used it as you're truly a bad person. No, truly. And then also in it, we won't harp on it, but it's like there's a mention of a moment in the show which is like the quintessential dramatic and not comedic moment, which is I have a really dark night of the soul moment where I think I get why dads leave. And it's all of my writer friends say, for me, that's when the show becomes a play. Well, also what it doesn't do is it doesn't understand what it takes to admit your darkest

thoughts. So it's, that isn't, it's not like you're saying, that's why men leave and they should leave. It's like sometimes when the baby's crying. Yeah. You know, you'll think to yourself, can I put the baby on the lawn for a few hours and take a nap? You know, you have crazy thoughts. Can I put the baby on the lawn for a little while?

You know, you have crazy thoughts, but it's really confronting to all your stuff. And that's what the show is about, which is everything comes up. I have a baby, all my problems, all my history. Now I have to deal with it all. Yep. And saying that's why dads leave is they can't handle growing up in that moment. So it really felt like a misread of what you were talking about. Right, which of course is something that is on me too.

I mean, the reviewer has a right to that experience, and somehow I'm not conveying it. I'm conveying it to most of the audience, but not to that person. So actually, it's instructive in that way. Well, that's the hard decision of an artist, which is, do I go all the way there? Is that line too much? Is it conveying what I want it to convey, but people are taking it the wrong way? Is it hard to get back from that kind of thing?

And the difficult thing is, in a crowd of 800 people, maybe every night after you soften the line, there's 30 people that are furious. Yep. Maybe because their parent left. Of course. Who knows what buttons you're pushing with people. But it's always tricky when it's written in a place that affects the success of a show. Yeah, of course. Because you don't know.

You want to push their buttons. I mean, that's what was interesting about the show, and I think that's why people loved it, is it was a show that says the things that people are afraid to say out loud about how hard a time they're having with some of the issues of having kids. Yeah, and the majority of the notes I get about the show that are personal notes are about that line specifically of people saying, my dad did leave

and I didn't grasp it until that moment. And it helped me experience a catharsis. And so that's wildly more meaningful to me than someone saying, I didn't like this part where he's singing. I don't like him. I don't like the guy. I don't like this guy for admitting this aspect of this moment for him. So the thing that you— But let's just say one more thing. Oh, yeah, of course. Some people just don't like some people.

You're right. You know what I mean? You're 100% right. We're friends with a lot of comedians. Some of our friends are very successful. And some of them are our friends, but in a way we don't like them. That's so funny. Or we don't like their stage persona. We might love them offstage and go, onstage,

that person's the worst. That's a riot. And I know people watch me and just might really dislike what I do when I'm onstage. And I know there are people that I love, and I have some friends that go like, oh, that guy really, oh, he's so annoying.

And if a thousand people review you, you're going to hit a couple of those. Of course. And I have that with movies. I mean, when we did This is 40, some reviewers, they couldn't get over the fact that they lived in a nice house. Right, right, right. And so they were not sympathetic to them having any personal problems or history with their parents because they seemed to be doing okay because they could afford to live in this house. Even though they're going bankrupt in the movie and are clearly about to lose the house.

Because I'm hitting some nerve of entitlement or something where someone's like, you're not allowed to talk about your problems. There's bigger problems, so don't talk about your problems. Of course. And which is fair because some people want to see a movie about those problems.

And some people are like, no, I don't care. There's more important things to deal with than how they're getting along. Right. It's interesting because like you gave me this great note after you saw the show, which I've been writing to and I'll pitch you some of the stuff today, which is you said you wrote the show about death and mortality and you have a ton of jokes about it. And I'm going to paraphrase, but you you said you wrote the show about death and mortality, and you have a ton of jokes about it. And I'm going to paraphrase, but you basically said, like, you really ought to dig in

to why you want to live. Because the more you want to live and can express that in an elegant and funny way, the more the audience is going to invest in the journey of you wanting to live. And I pass that on to my director, Seth Barish, and he loved that note. And I've just been writing to it ever since. Well, you know, it's funny. I was listening to a podcast the other day and it was Rick Overton and Greg Fitzsimmons.

And Rick Overton was saying, you know, he wants to live to be 100. He's looking to take it as far as he can go. And he was really funny just saying, I'm trying to be healthy and I want to go as far as long as we can take this. And Greg Fitzsimmons was like, 83 is good. And he had his reasons for that. But it's a real thing. Some people, they're exercising all day long because that's all they're thinking about is maxing out life extension.

And other people are like, you know, I like my hamburger. And I don't want to live that long. Or I like my drink or whatever makes me less healthy. Or I don't like jogging. And I'm happy to live shorter. I don't want to be on an elliptical machine. Exactly. Yeah.

And who are you doing it for? Are you doing it for yourself? Are you doing it for your family so you are around? Right. To accomplish your goals? To just exist? And that area seemed interesting to me. To hear from you.

Yeah. You know, because a lot of, you know, the show is about having other people have medical problems. Yeah. How you perceived that. Because I think about that sometimes. One grandfather, I had a heart attack at 65. The other at 72.

Yeah. And I always think, is that my clock? And then I think, but they liked ice cream. And they liked liquor. Yeah. And is that the clock? Right, cream. And they like liquor. Yeah. And is that the clock? Right, right.

But you are aware of it. And does that mean no ice cream? No, I know. I like ice cream. Can I do that two days a week of hard ice cream? And I'll avoid that. How long do you want to live? I have two fears, dying and living forever.

I have a fear, which is I'm going to be the last of the generation that doesn't live forever. Yes, I always think about that, too. And we are, by the way. We are just going to miss it. So close, right? No, we're definitely going to miss it. We're going to miss it by, what, 10 years, 20 years? Yeah, or even less.

It's going to be so close. People who are 20 now, do you think they'll be the live forevers? Yeah, it's entirely possible. Well, the live forevers basically means that you may not die of natural causes. Oh, my gosh. And so you spend your entire life trying to not get hit by a car. Oh, my gosh. You have to be now physically safe because you could heal the diseases,

but you can't fall off a cliff. It's a little bit Groundhog Day. It is. It is. And I think that's a little bit of a scary life. Oh, I think it's completely scary. To be worried about accidentally getting decapitated, but you know nothing else is going to get you except like an incident.

Yeah. So a lot of people will be in their houses protecting themselves. It also raises this issue of like sort of how long do you want to live at a certain age? Because I have this joke where I go, I'm 43, exactly halfway through my life. Not technically. Not everyone dies at 86, but no one's ever like 80 through 100. Those are the years. They're like, I was 83.

I reached for a grape and I never walked again. You know, like that's not fun. But you do meet those people who are great. And you just try to imagine that that could happen. Like I was friends with Norman Lloyd who was in train wreck and he died at 106. Oh my gosh. And I think doing really well

till about 104 and a half. Wow. Where he was, you know, reasonably healthy. Yeah, I remember meeting him. He was great. And hilarious. Yeah. Although I remember I was having lunch with him,

and I knew to treasure him. Yes. He's friends with Charlie Chaplin. I knew to treasure him. I mean, he was a special. He's like a time traveler. Yeah, yeah. He's coming from, like,. I knew to treasure him. I mean, he was a special. He's like a time traveler. He's coming from, like he could tell you stories about the Depression. Oh, my gosh.

Firsthand and Babe Ruth. Wow. And I really enjoyed being around him, and I would take people out to lunch with him. We had a great lunch with Howie Mandel and Ed Begley from St. Elsewhere, the show he was on. And he was always so funny and in a great mood. Like once he hurt his leg and I said, how do you hurt your leg? And he goes, it's from kicking too much ass.

Oh my gosh. I mean, really hilarious. So funny. But at one lunch he just, I forgot off of what, just went, everybody's dead. Oh gosh. Everybody's dead. Oh, gosh. Everybody. And you realize that's the other side of it when you're 106.

Wow. Not only is everyone dead. Everyone's been dead for like 30 years. That's the phrase my brother Joe always says. Every hundred years, all new people. You know that one? You ever hear that phrase? Yes.

Every hundred years, all new people. I'll that one? You ever hear that phrase? Yes. Every hundred years, all new people. I'll remember. I'll put that in my diary. I'm going to step away from my conversation with Judd Apatow to send a shout out

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And that kind of thing. And I want to pose that to you. What do you feel like in your life gives you the most joy? What are memories you have where you're like, oh, my gosh, if I could just put that in a time capsule? Well, my kids are now in the beginning of like next stage. Yeah, yeah. College and beyond. College and out of the house and working.

And so that's what you think of. You might just think of the dinner of the four of us just laughing about something. When you really get down to it, and for me, I think of being stuck in the house in the pandemic. I'm already rewriting it as the best year of our lives. Because at a moment when neither of them would have hung out with us, they were with us every day for the year. Yeah, yeah. And when I think about what we did,

it's everything that I couldn't get them to do before, like sitting around and playing board games. Oh, yeah, sure. And watching movies and just doing silly things together. I hear this from a lot of parents with college-age kids. Yeah. Because they go, I got to spend all this time with my kids. And it was awesome.

And that's like the secret of it. Like, we love you're here. Yes. And that's the thing that. And meanwhile, they're like, this is the worst year of my life. I have to spend all this time with my parents. I'm playing board games. How many pizzas can we make?

Yeah, yeah, exactly. So that's what I think about. Time with my family and not like the adventures. Yes. Just the small things. So what I wrote down is

do you have a memory in your life where you thought, and this is sort of a slow round question, is you know what's funny about life where you thought and this is sort of a slow round question is you know what's funny about the slow round in the show is that it sort of is dramaturgical like it's the same kind of thing as yours you're just provoking memories and thoughts that sort of might end up being pieces of writing eventually do you have a memory of a doing something in your life where you thought this is exactly where i'm meant to be and what I'm meant to be doing.

I mean, in terms of the work side of it, because as a kid, I always had a feeling, this is not the good times. Oh, interesting. That they will come later. Yeah. And I'm going to get through this. Yeah. And then I will be where I'm supposed to be. Yeah.

And then I will be where I'm supposed to be. And so just purely on the work side of life, there's definitely moments where people are funny. You're trying to crack the code of something. And it just starts making you laugh and all cylinders are firing. And you think, I mean, I wouldn't have had that specific thought, but that is what it is. Like, it's working. And it could be comedy. It could be Craig Robinson and Leslie, you know, having their fight when he's the doorman and knocked up. And it's just making you laugh.

And you know it's right. It's so funny because I think that's what unites, like, both comedians and comedy nerds, fans of comedy, which I would describe you and I as both. Both comedians and fans of comedy. Is it's this, because my memories are like laughing with audiences and also laughing with my wife and daughter. And laughing with my siblings. And like those are my memories. It's all laughing. It's and daughter and laughing with my siblings. And those are my memories. It's all laughing. It's like, what is laughing?

Laughing is someone points out the absurdity of this whole damn thing in this way that you just go, oh, my God, this is insane. I remember I saw Janine Garofalo at a wedding, at my friend Tom Martin's wedding. And she said, Judd, it's so weird to see you because I had this psychic vision of you. I forgot if she said it was a dream or not. Yeah. And I was single and miserable at the time.

And she's like, where you're with this incredible woman and your family and you're really happy. Yeah. And she's like, I get those sometimes. I get like little psychic images. And every once in a while I think, this is the Janine image. Janine has been proven correct. Wow. That's what Jen has that where you cast me as a dad in Trainwreck before I was a dad.

And she found it to be sort of a prophetic casting. Yeah. And are you the dad in life that you were in Trainwreck? I'm not that dissimilar. I mean, I'll actually segue that into some material that I have about Una. Because when I, I have this joke that I feel like I want to get into the show somewhere, which is I recently started a gratitude journal. And so far it's empty, but so much of it is about my daughter Una.

For example, one day I wrote, Una learned so much about dinosaurs that she seemed to delight in asking me and Jen what we knew about, let's say, the Lambiosaurus. And when we didn't know anything, she would be thrilled. I'm thrilled as fuck. She would be like, a duck-billed dino with a large skull. It's an herbivore, so it only eats plants. And we'd get defensive.

We'd point out that we know what herbivores are. Then we privately studied our dinosaur facts so we could prove ourselves superior to our five-year-old daughter. We quashed the dinosaur rebellion of 2020, but not without a fight. It was an intellectual locking of horns between a velociraptor and a

protoceratops. That was something I jotted in my notebook recently. That's hysterical. Stuff like that, where this is a couple things I wrote down that were in that universe of like joy, which is like I wrote like one day Una took a ukulele class with her teacher, Miss Coco, and they wrote a dinosaur song together. And the lyrics were, Diplodocus, Apatosaurus, and that's the chorus. That's pretty good. To hear my daughter sing and play a song she wrote about dinosaurs was, to use a cliche, I mock the most joy I've ever experienced. And laid to rest the age-old songwriter's debate

of whether any word could successfully be rhymed with apatosaurus. And people always talk to me about apatosaurus. What? Because it's spelled like my name. Oh, yeah. That's so funny. You have an apatosaurus. Yeah, exactly.

People send me pictures of them all the time. That's absurd. I'm going to set you up on a general with my daughter. We could talk about dinosaurs. Well, I'm working on a movie with dinosaurs in it, so I have questions for her. But that is the thing is that when the kids are young, they don't have any part of them that thinks

they shouldn't be writing songs about dinosaurs. And at some point, some people, they stop. Yes. And I feel like in this work, what we're basically trying to do is to continue to write the dinosaur song. To be silly and play. And to be in that vibe. And there's a moment where, kids, someone discourages that.

You're 100% right. It's Garden of Eden stuff. You're 15 years old. Stop writing songs about dinosaurs. When, if someone did right now, we would love it. If Billie Eilish wrote a dinosaur song. Right, or Jack Ananoff or Jack Black. Yeah.

Any of these people, if they wrote a dinosaur song, we'd be thrilled. Yeah. But you know what's funny about that is, and that's Garden of Eden. Garden of Eden is they're naked, and at a certain point they feel shame. And it's sort of a great metaphor for becoming an adult. Yeah. Because you start to feel shame about things. And it's like you don't actually have to.

And I feel like comedians are trying to hold on to the child-like brain impulses of like, no, we can do anything. We can sing a song about dinosaurs. It doesn't matter. I remember I was in Japan. I visited some Buddhist temple, and there was a monk there showing us around. And he was explaining Buddhism to my kids. And he said, when you're young, when you're a child, you realize that everyone is your friend.

And when you're an adult, sometimes you forget. Oh, my gosh. You're killing me. That's it. He goes, that's all it is. Yeah. But that's the dinosaur song. You're in that spirit.

That's beautiful. That's, um, if you could run with that and say that that's your original quote and start a cult. Stepping away from my conversation with Judd Apatow to send a shout out to Bomba Socks.

First of all, Bomba Socks, I'm already sold on the company. They make socks. They're super comfortable. They're fantastic. On top of that, they give a pair of their socks to homeless shelters for every pair that you purchase from them. The amount that they have done this is somewhere in the universe of like 45 million pairs of socks. That's it. I'm sold. I'm done. I'm done. I don't wear any other socks anymore. On top of that, Bomba's performance socks have taken all the amazing innovations that make Bomba's the most

comfortable socks you've ever worn and added their special Hextech performance technology. They come in different styles for every sport, specific design features to help optimize performance. They're fantastic. Try them. I love them. It's all I wear. Go to Bombas.com slash for bigs today. Get 20% off your first order. That's B-O-M-B-A-S dot com slash for bigs for 20% off. And now back to the show. And then a couple other things I wrote down in the sort of joy category about Una is I wrote, I recently taught Una how to play soccer. And based on Jen's recommendation, I pivoted to me and Una being on the same team because I learned that it's nicer to score a goal

with your daughter than to defeat her by a margin of 15 to one. Yeah, that happens where you're trying to teach your kid tennis and you're like, I guess I have to lose? Well, Jen and Una and I have these frank conversations about it. She goes, no, you try your hardest. And I'm like, I guess I have to lose? Well, Jen, Luna and I have these frank conversations about it. She goes, no, you try your hardest. I'm like, well, I can.

You know, I played tennis at the same place when I go on vacation with the same people for decades. Yeah. And we would play these games, right? And one of the games is they give me like a seven-point lead, and you play to 21. Yeah. Something like that.

And most of the time I win. And only this time did I realize that they've been letting me win for 20 years. Oh, my gosh. Wow. It never even occurred to me that every mistake he made was on purpose. Yeah. And that he was also pacing it so I would win at the last moment. That's absurd.

This is absurd. It's like tennis fantasy camp for movie producers. And I'm behind it like an idiot. Like, I beat this guy. That's ridiculous. And then this is,

gosh, there's a whole bunch of stuff I have about, well, you know, the whole I love you thing in the show, right, is basically that, like, my family doesn't say I love you. They say take care. Yeah. Still? Yeah. And I talk about this on stage.

And do you ever say it to challenge it? Okay. This is where I wrote this bit yesterday. It's just a quick, it's actually not even a full bit. I try to challenge myself to be the bigger person. Because I say in the show, I go like, it's from the top down. You know, like, it's not like your parents say, like, take care and you go, I love you. You know, like, that would be a desperate. But here's on Mother's Day this this year i said to my mom i go mom i really i'm on the phone with her i really appreciate you and there's a long silence and then she goes bye now

and that was the end bye now i'm like did she not hear me amazing um but and she's amazing mom but if you looked her in the eye and say mom i just want you to know i love you what would come back in person say i love you she'd say i love you and i think that that's what i have to do that is but do you ever do it no no no i i try to do things like this i appreciate you but do you feel like if you did it it would be confrontational like on some level it's an act of hostility to try to change the paradigm well what's so funny is they live in cape cod massachusetts and uh i've lived there for at least 20 years and i'm performing at the cape cod melody tent when first place i ever saw comedy when i was uh in high school i saw stephen wright live changed my life and i just thought i'm gonna do that i'm performing I ever saw comedy when I was in high school. I saw Stephen Wright live. Wow.

Changed my life. I just thought, I'm going to do that. I'm performing at the Cape Cod Melody Tent. My parents may choose to go or not go and they're going to see all this material.

Like, what are they going to think of me being like, my parents don't say I love you. But could you say to your mom beforehand, I'm writing this thing about it. And would she be like,

yeah, it's weird we do that? Or would she feel upset? No, she wouldn't be upset. I think she would be open to the conversation. It would be awkward. But I think it would go back to sort of like her Irish upbringing in Buffalo. And that like a lot was subtextual and wasn't spoken and that kind of thing. I think this is what –

She's so loving, by the way. I mean, she's one of the warmest people I've ever encountered in my life. But this is what I find most interesting about storytelling is not saying I need that, right? Yeah. Just reveals so much about a person, about humanity, that if you said to your mom, from now on, every single time I see you, I'm going to say I love you, and I need you to say it back, your mom would do it. And she might love doing it, but still, it is terrifying, for reasons which are hard to explain, to sit someone down and do that. Have you ever done that? Confronted someone on, like, you know what?

It would be nice if we said I love you. It would be nice if we did this. No, but my sister started saying it. I don't know how many years ago, but not that many years ago. And I just thought, the first time it made me a little uncomfortable because in my head I'm still like eight.

And then I went, in my head I thought, oh, that's nice. I guess we're going to roll with this. And then the other day I just thought like, oh, I'm still like eight. Yeah. And then I went, oh, in my head, I thought, oh, that's nice. I guess we're going to roll with this. And then the other day, I just thought like, oh, I felt like completely comfortable. That's nice. With it. But I felt like she, on some level, made the choice without asking. Like, I would like to communicate this feeling to you.

And so I went right with it. But we didn't have the conversation about it. I don't say I love you to my brother Joe. And we're probably as close as, you know, I say to my wife, say to my daughter. I don't say to my brother Joe or my sister Gina, my sister Patty, we're as close as anybody in the world. You know, as close as anybody I am to anyone in the world. And it's just bizarre. But I think it just, I mean, I guess it's habit at a certain point. But I like this idea of like attempting to break the cycle.

Yeah. Well, you find that more like adult friends say it now. Well, I say it to you. Sometimes when we're on the phone, I'll say I love you. I'll say it to John. Like I'll say it to a few of my close friends. Yeah. And more and more as we get older.

Our friend Pete Holmes. Yeah. Yeah. Well, because as we get older and also like, yeah, this is what the themes of the Old Man and the Pool show are in progress that you saw is this theme of like, you start to realize that life is fleeting and that anyone can go at any moment.

And they really can. I mean, I don't even know how to talk about this in the show yet. I mean, I might talk about it. It's like, you know, my friend Mitch Hedberg passed at 37. Greg Giraldo passed, I think, at 43. And it's like, they're gone. And that's it. And anything that I wanted to ask them, I can't. And anything that I wanted to say to them, I can 43. And it's like, they're gone. And that's it. And anything that I wanted to ask them, I can't.

Anything that I wanted to say to them, I can't. And those people can be anybody in your life. Yeah. And can you think that through so deeply that you actually adjust how you communicate with people and move through the world and treat people so that you've learned that lesson. Yeah. That's why in Buddhism they say, you know, you're supposed to meditate on your rotting corpse.

Oh, interesting, on your own rotting corpse. Yeah. As though you had passed. Yeah. Or on anyone, just to be in the moment, to be present, to appreciate what's happening right now. Because it's easy to just let it drift and not have those conversations.

But if you thought about that, maybe you would go deeper with somebody or you would tell somebody how you feel about them because you're aware that time is slipping away. But it's easier to just go to Big A Ice Cream and have a large cone than to force yourself to acknowledge the universe. So this is a thing I wrote in my book about joy,

which is one strange twist of having a kid is that people expect you to experience joy all the time. And like one day our neighbor spots me strolling our daughter Una and says like, is it the most joy you've ever experienced? And I'm like, I don't know, maybe. You know what I mean? I don't say it, I think it. I feel like saying it.

I feel like saying, I didn't experience joy before. I don't have to start now. Don't impose your unrealistic expectations on me. I am a good dad, a decent dad. The number one dad in America according to several ceramic mugs. But my dad did a decent job and he didn't experience joy.

So I experienced joy. I'm starting to understand joy in a new way, which is to say there's light joy and there's dark joy. And light joy is eating watermelon in the summertime. Dark joy is smoking pot through a watermelon. Light joy is when a puppy licks your face. Dark joy is when a lady at a bar licks your face.

Light joy is flying a kite at a beach. Dark joy is having sex on a broken kite. Light joy is watching YouTube videos of cats. Dark joy is watching water slide accidents. And so, you know. Because it's a mixed bag. It is. And the funny thing is when you're a parent,

you go to these places like classes. When your kids are little, maybe it's kindergarten, maybe it's like a dance class. Dancing or singing, whatever it is. And there's some parents that really want to have a conversation with you about how miserable they are raising their kids just to get it out of their system. They may love it, but they have to say to someone like,

oh, my kid is such an asshole. Right. And you have that moment where we have to let out the bad part, that we're tired and frustrated and we don't know if we're doing a good job. And then there's other parents that you might go, oh, my kid's such an asshole today. They look at you like you just took a bat to your kid's leg. Sure. Like they have no space for that.

They should call social services and yeah, yeah. This person is worrisome. Let's get them on a list. Yeah. And you find that you develop a friend to complain to. Yeah. And sometimes it can't be your spouse. to complain to.

Yeah. And sometimes it can't be your spouse. You just need a friend to, like, spout your worst and maybe your darkest jokes about it. Sure. To get through it. Okay, so then I wrote, and this is, again, this is all in response to I started culling together things I'd written in the last year.

I started culling together things where, like, I'm experiencing joy in my life, because I do experience joy in my life. And I think that one of the things you're saying is like, it's like, how can we feel that as an audience member? So that when you are making positive choices at the end, we know to what end. Yeah. Well, I feel also there's certain joy that it's like when you talk about positive joy, that's healthy. Yes. And then there's numbing joy. Sure.

Right? So like I could sit here and go, you know what? I'm going to get Shake Shack tonight and literally buy four hamburgers and two shakes and four fries and sit here and, you know, watch Pen15 by myself and have the greatest night of my life. Out of a numbing, like that I'm afraid to be in the flying a kite space. But that, you know, it's like the drug addict part of me, which is usually related to food. Right.

You know, it feels like joy. Yeah. Until you pay the price for it. I think it's synthetic joy, though. Because I talk a lot about being addicted in the show, being addicted to fries and sugar and pizza and macaroni and cheese. But it's like, I don't think that's joy. Yeah. Or is it?

Who can say? Who can say? Who can say? Because if I say it is joy, then I can do it more. If I say I'm slowly killing myself, maybe I won't. And it's hard to say. It's hard for me to acknowledge that taking a long walk today, I can get to some sort of joy. Yeah.

It doesn't feel like the McDonald's. Right. And on some level, I have to train myself that it's as good, but it's a tough competition. The McDonald's is slowly beginning to lose, and I don't really do that anymore.

I have to say, during the pandemic, I know this sounds lame and corny, but I would take two-hour walks every morning the whole pandemic. Same. I take walks every day. I take at least an hour to two every day. And halfway through, I started noticing trees. That's funny.

And I would notice that trees were pretty. And I started taking pictures of the trees. Then suddenly I noticed birds. And one day I was with Leslie and we were at a restaurant and there were these birds kept flying over. And I started taking like slow motion video

of the birds. Yeah. And Leslie's like, you're a bird guy now? You're a bird guy now. I became a bird guy because of Una. It was like realizing

like what matters in some way. But then I thought, I'm 53 years old. It took me 53 years to appreciate a tree. Yeah, it's interesting. That's why I'm wondering when my kids leave and now that they're basically adults, if all that goes away and I stop noticing all of it.

You stop thinking about the birds things and you go into some other phase. But I think it was, I have these mind writing slogans on the wall just to help inspire my writing. I think it's Allen Ginsberg. It says, notice what is vivid. And it's just such a simple note. Notice what's vivid. I want these mind things on your wall.

I need you to take a picture of your wall. Mind writing notes. No, it really is such a simple thing, which is just notice stuff. The trees, the weather, the birds, the flowers. It's all... I mean, that's mindfulness. Yeah.

Because I have one other thing about my dad's giving me advice, which is good. Giving you advice. Well, you know, you're not really clear about what happened with your dad's health issues and heart issues. You know, someone else made that point the other day, which is he's okay. He's okay.

He's 80. Yeah. So the history of that is interesting. It's like you're in a panic about it. Yeah. Did you say he had heart attacks? He had heart attacks. Three heart attacks.

Yeah. But, but yeah, the first one was major. The second two were minor, but like, and he's alive, he's okay. But someone else said that to me the other day. They came to the show, they go, is your dad okay? Yeah. Yeah, he is. And you want to know.

He's 80. What you took from the fact that he survived and thrived, or how it changed his life. Right. And did you think it was just genetic or was there something he neglected that led to heart problems? Well, I think, you know,

and I recently am trying to sort of deal with that, which speaks to the food thing we were just talking about, which is like he eats terribly. I mean, I eat terribly. My dad eats worse than that. Yeah, still. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And by the way, that's hilarious to just take your bad eating post three heart attacks.

I mean, it's a certain type of personality. Yes. Because I have these conversations with my dad. Like, Dad, are you drinking water? I don't really like water. I'm like, you can't just drink Pepsi, Dad. You got to drink water. I keep reading articles about water.

I'm always like sending my dad exercise equipment just send him the mirror the peloton oh my gosh because basically you're just trying to get them to not eat potato chips right dad if you stopped eating potato chips it'd probably really help how old's your dad 78 78 yeah my dad's 80 and it's like i mean god bless him. That's great. That's a great age to live to. And then at some point you're like, maybe his diet works for our body type. And by the way, also sometimes maybe it works.

And also maybe he didn't do such a bad job parenting. I'm so critical in my shows of my dad's parenting, but it's like, my siblings are fantastic. My brother and sisters are fantastic. So it's like... Well, you guys all get along. Yeah, and they're lovely people and funny and sweet. Well, that's an interesting irony of the family

that doesn't say I love you to each other, but all really love each other and get along. Yeah, and are there for each other. And so what does it mean? Is it just some sort of cliche to say I love you? Maybe you should go anti-I love you. Maybe you should talk about the benefits of not saying I love you. Because it so clearly worked for your family.

Like we're putting too much pressure on each other. Do we even mean it? Yeah, yeah. Maybe take care is a better phrase. Maybe take care is the answer. Because you are taking care. Yeah, yeah. Here's what I have,

which is I taught my daughter how to play soccer and to use the same cliche again that I've mocked for years. It's the most joy I've ever experienced. And she's,

you know, she runs fast, she kicks hard, she dribbles well. Through my rose-colored glasses estimation, she is the best six-year-old soccer player in America, which means objectively, she's about average. But she loves it, which is the most important part. And one of the pieces of wisdom my father

handed down to me that was handed down from his father was this rhetorical question he's asked me since I was in high school, which is, are you having any fun? And it's intended to be a friendly reminder. If you're not having fun, you might want to reconsider what you're doing. But it's tough advice to accept from someone who never seems like he's having any fun, given to someone who only seems to be having fun every once in a while yeah and that's a great one yeah it's fun right you're having any fun having any fun well also yeah you do think your kids are good at things and years later you laugh because you're like i don't think she was that good at that yeah and i always feel that way about my kids on everything

i mean this voice when she sings. But there are certain things where you realize they're terrible. Like Maude was playing basketball when she was like nine. Yeah. And we're not a sports family. Yeah. I will admit that I just don't want to be around parents and fans of the game. Super competitive.

And I don't like sports. And I also don't want to go anywhere. I don't want my kid to have a talent that makes me go to Bakersfield. And I don't want to go to tournaments. So I'm always discouraging that part of them. Purely selfish reasons. So I don't have to deal with it. But then she took basketball. And then there was a girl on her team

they're like nine pilar by the way you saying took basketball is uh the most indicative thing she took basketball like what how little do you know about sports the class of basketball basketball so she takes a basketball game and this girl Pilar is good. But it's funny when you're eight or nine and the funniest thing is this girl never passed the ball. So the ball would get to her. But seeing the most

adorable, miniature, vicious ball hog. And then you go home and as a parent you're like, fucking Pilar. And you're furious. You're so mad. Someone's got to, fucking Pilar. Yeah, yeah. And you're furious. You're so mad. Oh, man. Someone's got to talk to Pilar. Yeah, yeah.

Should we talk to her parents? Yeah. I mean, they're not getting issued at all. Yeah. Pilar. We need to speak with the— The fact that I remember her name shows you how upset we were. We need to warn the referee before the game that Pilar is going to be trying to pull some shit.

How much money are we paying for this damn basketball league? Yeah, yeah, exactly. I mean, you've got to tell Pilar. My kid's not learning how to play. My daughter is taking basketball. She's taking some basketball class. She's taking basketball. Okay, so the end of that is,

so I end up in a rabbit hole of soccer videos with my daughter. The first of which, by the way, at first it was Diego Maradona and Pele, all this stuff that I grew up on. And one day, this is mortifying, my the way, at first it was Diego Maradona and Pele, all the stuff that I grew up on. And one day, this is mortifying, my daughter goes, Dad, do girls play soccer too? Yeah.

You asshole. I know. And I go, oh, my God, I'm so sorry. This is the age of women's soccer. No, no, trust me, trust me. It crushed me. She no longer knows that men play soccer. Yeah.

You fixed it. I showed her hundreds of hours of women's soccer, and like so much, and she doesn't watch men's soccer anymore. Like, it's out, it's out, it's out. It was a huge oversight on my part. It was just based on my own upbringing, Maradona, et cetera. Yeah, you remember Pele.

Pele, right. So I show her the 2019 World Cup extended highlights from the quarterfinals, semifinals against France, England, and the Netherlands. And when the Netherlands loses 2-0, the Dutch players are crushed because they lost. And Una says to me, Dad, is it sad for them?

And I go, yeah, it's sad for them. She says, because they lost? Yeah, because they lost. Una says, it's sad to lose. And I say, yeah, it's sad to lose, but it's fun to play. And this was my generational handoff of, are you having any fun? So the thing that we always end on on the show, and this is something that's close to your heart, I know, because I've done a lot of benefits with you for It's close to your heart, I know, because I've done a lot of benefits with you for countless causes.

When we started this show, initially it was tip your waitstaff. We were raising money for comedy club waitstaffs that were out of work. And then when we made it working it out, we thought, well, let's keep a nonprofit component where we're giving to a different organization each week. And I have to say, it's been a great thing for just shining a light on different organizations. And I know you work with a lot of nonprofits. And so who do you want to shine a light on today? Well, I put out these books of interviews with comedians. I'm finishing up the second one now, but it's called Sick in the Head. And we give the money to 826. And 826 is a tutoring and literacy center. And they're in a bunch of locations around the country. And basically, it's a place where kids can go and there are people there waiting to tutor them for free. In addition, they'll publish books. They'll get all the kids to

write poetry or short stories and teach them. And then they'll make the books. And it's really important because a lot of people can't afford to get that kind of support. And when you read, it just opens up your eyes to how you want to be as a person. And Dave Eggers started this, and it's been really great to be around it at all. And so I'm just finishing up my interviews to put out this book in May that supports all of these centers. Well, I'm going to contribute to them. And I've contributed to them actually in the past. When me and Jen's book came out, we contributed to them.

And, yeah, it's a great, great, great organization. And thanks, Judd, for coming back. This is like wildly helpful. And in a year from now, not even kidding, in a year from now, we're going to probably be having a similar conversation about that version of the show. Working it out, because it's not done. Working it out, because it's not done. Working it out, because there's no hope.

That's going to do it for another episode of Working It Out with Judd Apatow. Holy cow, I have done a ton of writing since this episode. So I've actually, I'm already implementing his notes, and I feel like you're going to hear some of those reflected in the upcoming episodes. And definitely when you see me on tour this fall, for all those tour dates going on, Brubix.com, sign up for the mailing list. That is where it is all at, is the mailing list.

Thanks for listening. If you want to follow Judd, he's at Judd Apatow on Twitter. He's at Judd Apatow on Instagram. I can't thank him enough for joining me today. Our producers

of Working It Out are myself, along with Peter Salamone and Joseph Verbiglia. Consulting producer Seth Barish. Sound recordist was J. Ann Wang.

We were in person. I think this is the first one in person where both people are in the same room. Sound Mix by Kate Polinski, associate producer Mabel Lewis. Special thanks to Mike Insiglieri, Mike Berkowitz, as well as Marissa Hurwitz and Josh Upfall. Special thanks, as always, to

Jack Antonoff and Bleachers for their music. And a very special thanks to my wife, J. Hopestein. Our book, the new one, as you know, is at your local bookstore. And a very special thanks to my wife Jay Hopestein. Our book, the new one, as you know, is at your local bookstore. And look out for our virtual paperback comedy event September 10th. And reach out to

your local bookstore and see if they want to get involved for free. It doesn't cost them anything. As always, a special thanks to my daughter Una who created our radio fort. Thanks for adding your user reviews on Apple Podcasts. It helps so

much. It is the best way to tell your friends. It's the best way to tell your enemies. We're working it out. See you next time, everybody.