Mike Birbiglia's Working It Out - 5. Hannah Gadsby: Solo Shows and Spectrum Gazelles with a Master of the Craft

Episode Date: June 29, 2020

Mike discusses Hannah's award winning Netflix special “Nanette,” her new special “Douglas” and together they dig deep into the solo show process and how her new show may end up including a “spectrum gazelle.” Sponsored by Samuel Adams Please consider supporting: https://www.safehorizon.org/

Hey everybody, it's Mike Birbiglia. We are back with another episode of Working It Out. This is episode five. I recorded this a few weeks ago with Hannah Gadsby, one of the Earth's great comedians. She had a groundbreaking award-winning special a few years ago on Netflix called Nanette. If you haven't seen it, watch it. And she has a new special on Netflix called Douglas.

Equally brilliant, but in different ways. We talk all about it. We get deep into process. This might be my favorite so far. Enjoy. We're working it. I saw your show at the Soho Theater, and to this day, I've never done this. I bought, I saw the show, the last show, Nanette.

I loved it. I bought 10 tickets for Friends. Oh, my Lord. Isn't that funny? And I've never even done that since. Wow. That's kind of mean also. Like, it's a lovely thing to do, but it's a very specific show.

Did your friends thank you? I mean, I should thank you. Thank you. They did. And actually, one of the people who I sent to your show is Jacqueline Novak, who went on to have a hit off-Broadway show last year. Yeah. Oh, that's cool.

Yeah, and she loved it. She really loved it. Even if she hated it, you know, like, then that's a good driver, isn't it? Yeah, of course, of course. She went on to create something. I will never forget seeing Nanette in the Soho Theatre because, what, it's got to be 100, 150, 200 seats.

Like, it's a pretty small venue. Yeah, that's not a comedy show. That's someone kicking off at a family reunion. Right. And now I'm on a billboard in an empty Times Square. That's a lateral move. Right? Right?

Yeah. It's the same amount of people you're reaching. Yeah. Yeah. My early career is really sort of socially distant friendly. I had this thing when I saw your show where it was kind of like, did you ever see Back to the Future? It was like the 80s movie.

No, I haven't. I'm so embarrassed. No, no. I know it's. I'm not everyone's favorite. I get a lot of the references. There's this moment where Michael J. Fox plays the Johnny B. Goode, and someone calls Chuck Berry while he's playing it to this big group of people,

and he's like, Chuck, get a load of this, you know. And that's how I felt when I was watching your Nanette live. I was like, get a load of this. Like, this is the future. Oh, wow. It was cool. I mean, I really felt like it was, and then you and I had this sort of friendly DM conversation

because I didn't feel like I knew you well enough to come back and say hello at the show. Yeah, it really wasn't also a show that I said hello after. It was as brutal as it looked for me. I'd just have five or six minutes by myself and then walk home and try and have an early. Yeah, it was a really hard show to do and I kept doing it because I felt like it was doing something.

Yes, yes. I kept feeling compelled to do more and more shows. And, you know, it was beyond, like, the demand. Of course there was demand. You always want to put on extra shows when there's demand. Sure. Shift some units, as they say. But this felt larger than me and I was just –

because I got to the stage of exhaustion that I wasn't able to make proper decisions. Yeah. So I was trusting the team around me and we just sort of thought, you know what, we should just try and reach as many people as we can for as long as you hold out. Yeah. And then I saw the early version of Douglas in Los Angeles and I said hello at that one. Yeah, yeah.

It's not a painful show to perform, that one. That's right. And then I just saw it on Netflix. And it's extraordinarily good and beautiful. And just like every bit as great as Nanette. Like, one of the things that really struck me is the point at which you're like, people criticize you saying it's not stand-up comedy, it's not, you know, you're a storyteller, it's a one-woman show, whatever. And I feel like I screamed laughing in recognition of that, because I feel like my whole career, I've been told I'm not a comedian. And I don't know what to tell people when they say that I just go well it's whatever you think it is it doesn't matter what it is yeah I think you know when people say it's not comedy

I think it comes from a very defensive place because you know which is fine you know you got to do what you got to do but as an art history student I'm just like you do know you lose. Right. That's right. Like, you know, because everything has to evolve. I'm not necessarily saying that, you know, what I'm doing is right and will be remembered forever. I don't think it's healthy to think in terms like that. But it's clear that people who resist change do not survive the change. Yeah, they don't win. Yeah, and people who don't experiment with creativity

do not end up being genuinely creative. And that's fine if you want cookie cutter. There's plenty of time and space for that. But I just don't understand the anger. Yeah, there was so much genuine anger. What's interesting to me is that I had a quick look on socials after Douglas dropped, not on my own page because that's become, by and large, friendly fire.

Sure. But on the Netflix as a joke sites, like they just throw a clip of me and whatever and people are just commenting and it's exactly what I say they're going to do. They're doing again, you know, all caps like, I've never heard of her. And I'm like, oh, my God, dudes. That's amazing.

At least change the tune. Like the reason it doesn't affect me so much is it's so easily to place within a pattern. And then you can, you know, work out what is actually inspiring this sort of stuff. And one is I'm fat. Like that's just it. I don't have to listen to you because you're fat. That's the criticism on social media?

Yeah, it's quite a common one, particularly for female comedians. Like it's not so much like they take an angle of your physicality and just sort of say, well, you don't get to speak because you don't look right. And this goes way back to, you know, the ancient Greeks. Like it's not new, so it doesn't bother me. Like this is exactly what I'm talking about. You know, this is a patriarchal device.

And it's like, oh, well, you're not interesting, are you? So that one's easy to dismiss. Right. And then there's the one, like, the insult, which is, I've never heard of you. Right, I've never heard of you, yeah. It's so delightful, isn't it? Because it's like, you have. Sure.

Like, you have. You typed this. Now. Like, you could say, I've only just heard of you. I'd accept that. But you've never heard of me? I can't believe it. You could say, I'm new at this party. Now. Like you could say, I've only just heard of you. I'd accept that. But you've never heard of me? I can't believe it. You could say, I'm new at this party.

Yeah. And I don't like you. And that's all fair. But I've never heard of you. It's not an insult. It's just signaling your stupidity. So that doesn't upset me. And then the other one is, you know, defining what comedy is.

Yes. Classic. Yeah. So it's like, oh, I don't have to listen to what you have to say because I can prove that you've said it wrong. So everything that there's no meaning to what you say. And that's, you know, a funny one to, you know, a funny idea to express on something like Twitter because, you know, if you want to be old school about communication, Twitter doesn't exist. Right. You know, like if you want to be a purist in terms of what form communication should take, Twitter ain't your platform.

Yeah. Drum it out in a drum circle. Yeah. Yeah. Twitter ain't your platform. Yeah. Drum it out in a drum circle. Yeah, yeah.

So, you know, like it's just – and then so then – and then it's like me being sexist. That's the other – Really? That's one of them? Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. That's interesting.

I would not have – I mean, I guess I could have guessed that. I couldn't believe the, I remember the Nanette criticism being shocking to me because I remember, like, comedians who I liked and respected, who I don't know personally, but, like, I remember Norm MacDonald, who I always thought was a great comedian. I know, that was a bit disappointing, wasn't it? Yeah, it's sort of like, he goes, I think I looked it up today. He was like in an interview he said, I haven't seen it.

I haven't seen it, but I don't want to see it because what I've read about it, I don't like. It's like, my God, you're way too smart for that opinion. Yeah, look, in all fairness to him, you know, and people, it's like you do the rounds doing your own show, right, and you keep getting asked this one thing and you haven't invested in it and you don't, like, you know, I kind of get that. You know, people sort of, you know, you get on this sort of run of like,

oh, you're promoting a show and then people keep talking about me. I'd be so annoyed. Oh, right, right, right, right. I see what you're saying. You know, so he's probably being defensive in that. He's actually spent his time creating his content and that's what he's been focused on and then people keep asking me. And so I reckon that's probably like because he's, like you say,

he's pretty smart and I don't need him to like me and I don't think he's but I reckon that's probably more what that is. But I still get, you know, people hating me about, like, going, yeah, Norm Macdonald's a real comedian. I'm like, I just, I've never heard of him. Sure. But I want to. I want to.

Yeah, yeah, so much. When I think about, like, some of my favorite art in the last decade, you know, I would say, like, I felt the way I'd felt about your show about, like, Get Out, the movie. I felt that way about, like, Hamilton, the show. And both of those and Annette were examples of it's a hybrid of different things. You're pulling in, you know, Get Out is a horror movie and it's a comedy and it's a social satire. You know, it's like Hamilton is a musical and it's a historical biopic, et cetera.

And it's like it seems to me that so many successful things historically in art are things that don't abide by the strict rules of the form. Yeah, I think, you know, this is sort of a reaction to the formulaic idea of genre that sort of Hollywood sort of churned out, you know, since the 50s really or earlier than that. You know, you can only do one thing and that pretty much boils down to we need to know who we're allowed to advertise to.

So is it young people or is it old people? And now you're seeing a fresh take on that in all sorts of ways that not necessarily is as divisive as Nanette but, you know, you've got shows now that can appeal to across generations and, you know what, I think that's great. got shows now that can appeal to across generations and you know what i think that's great i i had the i i think that netflix is is uh like so great for that when i did my first solo show sleepwalk with me netflix didn't really exist as a streaming platform and that's where it would have lived best and no no one no one no one wanted it hbo didn't want it. Like Comedy Central didn't want it.

And people don't, I mean, I don't talk about it that much because it's like a failure story. But like it ended up being an independent film because no one really wanted it as a comedy special. Yeah, and that's like a shame. Yeah. And I get leveled with all sorts of things like that. It's like, you're not the first to do this.

I'm like, no, I'm not, and that's frustrating that more people don't know about all the other things. Yes. You know, people have been doing this kind of thing for years. Like in queer performance, what I did with the nannies wouldn't be considered particularly new. It's just the fact that I did it in a so-called genre that is supposed to be broadly accessible.

Yeah. You know, like it's not thinning out the audience by saying what it is. So it's not like, oh, I'm a queer performance artist. And everyone's like, okay, bye. That's interesting. I never thought of it that way. So in some ways you do benefit from the genre being open-ended

in terms of getting people to come in and then they're surprised by it. Well, you know, part of what it's doing is playing with expectations, which I do overtly in Douglas. In Douglas, yeah, yeah. That's the theme of the show, but that was the tool of the show for Nanette. So with Nanette, you know, the function was to destroy the form, whereas in Douglas, the function was the form. And in both of them, the titles of the shows are so lovely

in that both of them are sort of an intentional mislead. Yeah. It's that sort of thing, you know, with a show, particularly if you tour it, you know, we usually tour it after we've named it. Yeah. And that's the same thing as when you're naming children or even dogs.

You name them before you know them. Sure. And so I like to do that. Like you just give it a name and it's like you just don't know what something's going to be when you name it. So, you know, just giving it those sort of generic names. Although, you know, like Nanette and Douglas have certain, they're the springboards.

Like Nanette represented an actual human being and Douglas an actual dog. Yeah, yeah. they they serve as springboards to ideas um but it is still a misdirection but douglas is all about you know the naming of things like that's the whole yeah the whole gist of the show i have to say like jenna and i watched it the other, and the next day we were happier. I swear to God. I mean, we just felt – and we were talking about it over coffee in the morning,

and we had this thing of like, I'm in a really good mood after watching that special last night. And she had the same experience. Well, it's – you know, like I really wanted to do a show like that without dumbing it down, without making it fluff. Because I think like people will say, I just want to laugh and I agree with that. Sometimes you just want to laugh. But I don't, I think there's added endorphins if that laugh

comes with fun thinking. Yes. Like that was a lot of the theory behind it. And also I'm going to totally nerd out. I think if anyone I can totally nerd out with, it's you. Please. It's a fugue. So I used the basic principles of a Bach fugue to create the show.

Well, fugues make sense. They have like it's a proved pattern. Sure. So it has a prelude then it introduces ideas and then it weaves those ideas in a different form and then it ends with a stretto which is just basically a jumble of all the ideas but a cacophony of the same ideas so i've used like a musical form and my theory was was then that makes it, you know, if you can add a musicality to something, then I think that that adds enjoyment.

I think so. And I think, like, just at the top, it's so, and spoiler alert, if people are listening to this, if you haven't watched Douglas, just pause it, watch Douglas, come back. It'll be here. No, it's fine. The point of Douglas is that it is a spoiler alert. Yes.

But yeah, exactly. You know, and it's a completely autistic thing to do. And most people will watch it and go, oh, it's a neat trick. But people on the spectrum who watch it and go, oh, I'm seeing my thinking reflected back to me. It was written to reward repeat viewings. Yes. You know, so people, because that's how people watch things now. And I figured you may as well use that as part of how you think about the whole.

Like a live show is one thing and it's its own wonderful beast. But I realized after Nanette, most people who see this are going to see it on a screen. Sure. And that has its drawbacks being in a room full of people is a really living it now a lot of people miss it you know it's a it's a magical experience to to witness something as a group and you know as a gathering um and there's great power in that but so watching it on a screen you lose something but my you know it's an act of translation so for you lose something surely you have to gain something um and so i've tried to create something that rewards repeat viewings but you don't know that as you're watching it you know it's not impenetrable. It's not like, if you watch this three times, you'll get it.

Yes. It's just like, if you watch it once, you'll have a fine time and everything will be good. If you watch it again, you'll get more. And if you watch it a third time, you'll get more. Watch it a fourth, it might be pushing it. So this is a portion of the show that I call the slow round. And it's basically just prompts, just memories, things like that. The first one is, do you have a smell that sticks out in your memory from your childhood or from when you were younger? I'm gonna, I'm gonna go with talcum powder.

Okay. My dad was strong on the talc. Okay. So you'd go into the bathroom after he'd finished it and it would just be covered in talc except for his flat footprints. Oh, my gosh. And then also my nan who was my nan, she was the elderly lady who lived next door who was my best friend. I've always been popular.

She's dead now. No, I shouldn't say it like that. I loved her, but she was old and she had it coming. Gosh, I did it again. It's the same thing I do in Douglas. It's like, you know, dogs die. But anyway, she was. I'd visit the, you know, Nan and Pop next door every day after school

and she also had a strong talc game. Yeah, yeah. I remember some talc from my childhood. Apparently they're not going to make it anymore. Oh, really? Yeah, apparently, you know, after the last tubs, you know, sold, they're not, that's it. I feel like maybe I should just buy some for, like, nostalgia snorts every now and again. Do a line of talc.

A line of talc, yeah. do a line of talk a line of talk yeah yeah do you have a memory on a loop that doesn't make it ever into your storytelling but just like pops up into your brain uh there's so many and there's actually a large part of my life that before nanette i haven't actually been able to talk about because it doesn't make any sense because life was, you know, I wasn't making sensible decisions. It doesn't make sense to the outside world, you know. Sure. It tends to happen. So there's a large chunk of my life between when I was, you know,

left home and then when I started doing comedy, you know, kind of about five or six years where I just sort of drifted. And there's so many stories that exist in that that I haven't really been able to contextualize in common because then I have to explain so many things and oh that's fascinating yeah so there's you know like I was kind of home I was homeless and I was planting trees and you know I tried in a couple of shows to touch on these sorts of things, but I've got some pretty wild stories. But they're so wild that people then look at me and go, but you're not a wild person.

Oh, no kidding. That's fascinating. This doesn't compute. Right. Because I feel like I might be able to explore them now, you know, like because, you know, I have the contextualisation of like I have autism. I trust people easily. They say do a thing and all of a sudden I'm at an all-night rave

in the Northern Territory juggling for 12 hours straight because someone gave me MDMA and I didn't know what it was and then I found out and learned how to juggle. Wow. Good answer. Thank you. The next one is do you have like a skill that is neat but no one really knows about it?

I have an uncanny ability to predict what's going to happen in the background of television shows just before it happens. That's hilarious. to happen in the background of television shows just before it happens. That's hilarious. Are you being serious or is this set up for a joke? Yeah, no, it's really good. I did it the other night twice. I was just like, oh, there's going to be a fire breather,

and then it's like, there it is. What do people underestimate about you consistently? Even though you're wildly successful now, is there anything that people don't get that you're good at? I have incredible eye-hand coordination. Oh, that's a good one. Yeah. It's a weird one because i'm also clumsy yeah

um but it's a matter of focus whatever i you know if i have hyper focus um because my position on the on the spectrum i guess i guess we'll put it down to that but so if i'm not focusing on something i'm you know falling off bikes and putting my hand through windows but then if I'm not focusing on something, I'm, you know, falling off bikes and putting my hand through windows. But then if I'm focusing on it, it's like, you know, I'm quite good at golf. Oh, is that right? Really? Yeah. Yeah.

I used to play off a five handicap. No. Yeah. Wow. And then the final one is what is the oddest thing you remember witnessing that you were not a part of, like it was just outside of yourself? I saw someone, and it was in Portland Airport,

because I remember because of the carpet. They have the best carpet at their airport. And there's a travelator, the flat walk. Sure, like a moving walkway. Yeah. There was a woman sort of leaning on it on the carpeted side, just leaning, scrolling through her phone, probably looking at socials, you know,

just looking as bored as one can be. And she's holding onto a dog leash, and the dog is on the travelator just walking on the spot beside her. Unbelievable. That's an amazing image. By the way, that's a perfect image for a film, just to be not the central image, but the thing that you're saying essentially in the background.

Yeah, I would go, now there's going to be a dog walking on the travel leader. Yeah. There it is. So on this show, we either work out a bit for a new show you're working on, or maybe something that didn't make it into the last show but could make it into the future show? Yeah, I was thinking about that. Like with Douglas, it was a constant evolution of a show and there's so much that didn't make it in. And if you saw the show in LA, you would have probably seen this bit. And it's a bit where I'm trying to explain autism as not a bad thing,

but not just on an individual level. It's on a like I'm handy to the group. People on the spectrum, you know, it's not, you know, perhaps there's a reason we exist in evolutionary terms. Sure. And, you know, and the set list heading is spectrum gazelle. So imagine a group of gazelles. We're a group of gazelles.

And the spectrum gazelle is the one that will hear the twig snap because something's different. And that means the rest of the group can just relax and have a nice meal on the meadow. And then Spectrum Gazelle is always on high alert, just going something's different, that tree's moving differently, that's different, and there's, oh, it's a twig, guys. And then everyone goes, what?

It's a twig. And then they all run off and I roll my ankle and get eaten. Oh, my gosh. But it needs a lot of work, but I still think there's a twig. And then they all run off and I roll my ankle and get eaten. Oh my gosh. But it needs a lot of work, but I still think there's something in it. No, I think there's something very, very, I mean, it's so vivid and I think true. But how do you workshop something on a podcast for stage? Well, I don't know. I mean, like, I think the way that I, the way that I work with like my director, Seth Barish, or if I work with Ira Glass on developing something is, is, is, is like my director will go like, I'll pitch a bit. And he'll go sort of like, what I get from that is this or what I you know, what I'm getting from that. And for like, for me, that bit is great in terms of it being completely vivid, but then it's sort of like, well, what are you going to use it to propel you into?

I feel like the thing about Douglas is it's so compact where everything arrives at the end in a certain place. And the Spectrum Gazelle, I feel like you'd have to find sort of a purpose for it, right? you'd have to find sort of a purpose for it, right? Yeah, yeah, which is, you know, which is my life's goal to find a purpose, huh? What do you, I guess I would say like what... It's like, it's a very different way of working, isn't it? The most common, you know, than the real comedy we'll call it.

Because, you know, instead of sort of thinking about comedy as little tiny bite-sized bits that you then assemble, I think we probably work in similar veins where it's just like, this bit works on its own, but it makes no sense in the whole. It has to go. Oh, so many things that I write are that. I mean, I'd say a majority of what I write is that. I can't make a trailer. Trailers are hard for my

shows because once you're out of the first five minutes, everything's like, oh, it's a callback. Oh, that doesn't make sense out of context. I guess what I'm curious about with the gazelle bit, because I think it's great and it would kill me if you didn't put that somewhere, but it's like, what do you think your next show might be about? Like in terms of where it might land? Well, I'm a big fan of trilogies.

So I feel like my next show has to be, you know, part of the Douglas Nanette trilogy. Yeah, yeah. So the thing that both Nanette and Douglas have in common is I'm playing with expectations. Sure. So the third show can't be at all meta. It cannot reference comedy once. Yeah. So I feel like there's a room for gazelles in that show. I think so too. And I think the thing that's interesting to me about the gazelle is it helps me understand the autism

experience a little bit in a way that I don't understand. And I feel like if you went deep into that rabbit hole, I bet there's so much there because someone like me, I want to know more. Like you make that analogy and I'm like, tell me more, tell me more, tell me more. Yeah, it's a trap I didn't want to fall into in Douglas because I could just stand up there and I will become the expert on autism and I'll have to teach autism. And I'm like, I don't want to do that.

I want the show to be autism, like to be that thinking. Sure. So it's, you know, so I walked the line between being accessible and then also just, you know, opening up, you know, one autistic way of thinking. So I guess with the Spectrum because that didn't really fall into that category because it's like I'm explaining it, I'm justifying.

But I think if I was to, you know, focus on more, you know, have a looser, you know, now that I've introduced the idea of it with Douglas, I think maybe I've got more room to prize. But I think what I like about the Spectrum Gazelle is it places me within the context of a community. Yes, absolutely, yeah. And that never – often, like, we're either cool on our own and have a superpower, you're good at math,

or we're a burden on the people around us. Sure. And both those things can be true, but also I'd like to posit that we have a place. Yeah. You know, it's basically, you know, neurodiversity has a reason for existing. Yeah, yeah. And what are those reasons? I'm interested in those reasons.

In the net, the thing that stuck with me was the self-deprecation line. And because the self-deprecation by a marginalized group is not, is humiliation. It's not deprecation, it's humiliation. And what's interesting to me about that was always like, I don't even know if I agree with you, but I'm fascinated by is that true or not? Do you ever have that with comedians where you're like, I don't even know if I agree with this person, but wow, is that a fascinating thought? I think it's both true and not true.

I was just sick of it being only not true. You know what I mean? Yeah. And I think, you know, in any room you walk into, you have to question what power you have. And that's where you go, okay, I have no power. So I don't think I should put myself down. But when you're in a room and you have power, then you go, yeah, I should knock myself down a few pegs. And I think it's a constant adjustment. You know, so now I'm in a position that's like, well,

technically I have power. I feel more free to, you know, not take myself so seriously. Yeah. And I think that's important. But there are certain things that I will not do. You know, I will not be self-deprecating about my body. I will not. Yeah, yeah.

You know, because it's already such a war zone for women, you know, particularly women who don't fit the traditional idea of what women should be. And I don't feel like I need to add to that. But I will make fun of myself for other things. Yeah. But it's interesting in relation to the spectrum, Gazelle, because it's like, is it,

you're talking about being on the spectrum in this way that is, I think it's sort of, I don't know, it's sort of inviting and it's sort of illuminating. And that's what I'm drawn to about it. But I was just thinking about it in relation to the self-deprecation. Because you're taking something that is marginalized typically and you're actually pointing out what's spectacular about it. Yeah, without it being a superhero thing.

I think there's a danger in people going, oh, we need people on the spectrum because how would we have computers? And it's like, no, like that has to, I want to land in a place that goes beyond, you know, technology and to a very, like, fundamental human experience as to why. Like, you know, oh, people on the spectrum can do things that we will have never, you know, like they think about things we don't have to. And I'm like, no, we think about things that perhaps you should think about.

That's right. But you can't. Yeah, I think that that's a really beautiful piece of imagery. I mean, the other thing is, are you, you know, like I wrote this book with my wife and it's the new one. It's an extension of the special in the Broadway show, the new one, and it's an expansion on more stories, more ideas. I wonder, do you think there's a book in your future

where you could take something like Spectrum Gazelle and find a home for it somewhere like that? Well, that's what I've always comforted myself with whenever I'm culling material. I'm like, I'll put it in the book. There is no book. There is no book. I'll put it in the book.

There is no book. It's nice. But, you know, sometimes there's bits where you're just like there's something in it and it takes a long time for you to realize that the thing that's in it is not anything to do with what the bit is. Sure. Maybe it's a sidestep and maybe it's adjacent to something and it's close to it but when it ends up in forming,

it looks nothing like. So I keep track of all these things and hopefully they'll, you know, and I mean, that's essentially what Nanette was. It was me reprising material that I built my career on, you know, and why that didn't quite work for me. It worked great for the audience, but why it didn't work for me. So I've been writing this new show called the YMCA Pool. Wait, in Australia and New Zealand, do you have the YMCA? It's actually an important question. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We've got young men.

Okay. Young men, yes. So you have like, with the swimming pool and too much chlorine and all that stuff, everything? Yeah, yeah. Okay, okay. I mean, they didn't have it where I was from, but we didn't have a lot where I was from. Right, right, right. So I wrote this sort of pro, so everyone thinks because my last show was about having a child, they always go like, oh, your daughter's five now. Is it going to be about the new show?

Is it about how your daughter's five? And I'm like, no, it's about my own death. Because I'm 42 and I just think about natural causes all the time. I think about like, oh yeah, this is, I'm, you know, I have a pitch, you know, I'm over, quote unquote, over the hill is the expression. And when you're over the hill, I never understood the expression until I got on the hill. And then I'm looking around like, oh, there's natural causes. They're not close, but they're coming.

And I was trying to come up with like a prologue for the show. And I wrote this. And it's not necessarily comedic, but I thought I'd try it. Yeah, have a go. So the idea would be that I would just sort of walk out and say, thanks for coming.

I'll tell you something about myself that I've never really shared. I keep a very detailed calendar. I know the day I met my wife, March 17th, 2004. I know the day I jumped through a second story window sleepwalking, January 25th, 2005. I don't know the day I'm going to die, but I'm working on it. I'm fascinated by time. It's simple. One year is a revolution of the earth around the sun. One day is a rotation of the earth on its axis. One minute is just some fucking random shit we made up.

Time is endlessly fascinating. You can live for 80 years or 20 years, and in both scenarios, you didn't do anything wrong. You can live for a week. I have a friend whose son lived for a week, and he wrote an email to his entire list where he said a few kind words about his son. And the first thing I thought was that's a challenging eulogy. And my second thought was, I get it. Because a week is a month is a year is 80 years. We're all alive for about a week. And that's, that's the prologue for the show. Yeah, I like it. I mean, it's not packing a laugh, but I can see why you tried that with me. Yeah.

Yeah. So what's interesting, so what's jumping out to me there is that you've gone from cataloguing your past to trying to predict your future in that sense, trying to make sense. Yeah. So you know when big things happen in your past because that's what you do when you're climbing up the hill, so to speak, you're collecting.

Yes. And then I think maybe people think that going up the hill, so to speak. You're collecting. Yes. And then I think maybe people think that going over the hill and walking down the hill is just the opposite of walking up the hill on the other side. Yes. But what you're saying is like actually it's a revolution. Right. So what you pick up is not what you put down because you've changed.

Your horizon has changed. You know, get up over a hill and you see that there's just a mountain range and you're not even going to reach it, so you just should chill. Yeah. So it's like that's what sort of jumped out of me. It's like you begin by saying, I know these things because they have happened and I'm picking out patterns. And these, you know, you list important things, but not non-important things.

I always feel like that's what the passage of time does is like you prioritize smaller and smaller, smaller things. Oh, that's really interesting. Yeah. And then certainly the quarantine has done that to a lot of us. Yeah, that's how I've always lived, though. Like quarantining is my, that's how I've always lived though. Like quarantining is my, that's how I pause. Like I, you know, sort of studied Taoism. That's the closest thing that I'll have, you know, to a religion. It's like I study a religious philosophy, I guess. And they have that,

they have that in there. And I've kind of tried to live by that as best as I can. It's like, you know, high winds can't blow all day. You know, you need rest. You need to recede. Yeah. And that's kind of what we're experiencing on a mass global level. It's just like we all need to pause and we need to pause now. And what that's showing us is that we've needed to pause well before this.

And if we'd have taken practice to pause well before this and look after the vulnerable, then this wouldn't be happening. I have this joke that may make it into the next show about how my wife is an introvert and I'm an extrovert. And an extrovert is someone who gets energy from being around other people and an introvert doesn't like you. Or she might like you but she's going to need me to explain why we're leaving the party.

Yeah. See, I'm really social. I really like people. I just can't do it for very, very long at all. Yeah. I can't relax if there's a lot of change on my horizon, you know, a lot of transitions to expect and plan for. But I've actually quite enjoyed doing, I hate doing press

because it means changing a lot of location and meeting a lot of people. Yeah. And it's not the people that bother me. It's the change of location. It's the different smells. It's the change of location it's the the different smells it's the different rooms it's yes it's the trap like i like spectrum gazelle i'm clocking everything i'm cataloging absolutely everything and it is exhausting but i can't turn that off that is how my brain functions it is on high alert all the time and that's not like it's different to being in a state of um fight or flight

right it's yeah which is essentially what trauma does it locks you in a state of flight fight or flight i've had that i experienced that and i understand the difference what i have with my autism situation is that is the natural function of my brain so in order for me to relax, I have to be in a completely familiar environment with no change. Like I know where things sit in my house, not because I'm a neat freak. It's just so that my eyes can relax without noticing difference. Sure. And it's a very, it's a subtle difference. It's not being, you know, I'm not controlled. You know, I don't want to control my environment. I just need to know that things are the same because if they're not i will notice i will notice if there's a different smell or

yes i notice if you know i hear a dog bark you know uh four mile away like i'm just and i notice it it doesn't necessarily register as a threat. But when you're clocking all these things constantly, it's no longer. So being in quarantine means that the world is just at a safe distance for me. That makes sense. I mean, when you said Spectrum Gazelle again, I just thought, like, man, it's a good title for a special. It is a bit, isn't it?

It's really good. I mean, because it's so vivid. And I always think of like titles as being, it's important that they're visual, that they, I don't know, that they're imagistic in some way. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I guess so. But it ruins my trilogy. But although, you know, having said that, I'm defying expectations, aren't I?

So you set up a pattern, then you destroy it. So is there anything else from Douglas that got cut, but ultimately, like, you sort of love and you feel like might make it into another show? Yeah, I had a whole bit you probably saw. I say I'm terrible at naming dogs and I give an example. We had a dog that was a corgi and Dad named it Porgy because it was a Pekingese corgi, so it's Porgy and it's delightful and cute. And then we got another dog and I said, I can do this, you know.

I've got this. I saw what you did there with Porgy. I can name our new dog, which was a Pointer Spaniel. And I named that poor fucker Panniel. And, like, it's just a fun, you know, to just say, I've named that poor fucker Panniel. And then just, you know, saying Panyul a lot is funny. It's just like Panyul, Panyul.

And because Panyul, he actually, I think he got stolen, but in the show I was like he ran away and why wouldn't you with a name like Panyul. So that was just like it's all it's not saying anything bigger but i like it because it's just a very succinct way into my the way my brain works it's like it's literal to the point of stupidity but if you gather enough literal thoughts you can you can assemble something you know fun and interesting do you are you like a carry a notebook person in that sense? I am and I'm not.

I sort of, I'm haphazard about it. I have an incredible memory. Interesting. Yeah, it's, you know, and it's not contextualized in a way, like I don't do time very well. I don't understand time. Yes. And when I start writing things down, you know, in order, you know,

with dates like you were saying in yours, it does something bad to my brain and the way it thinks. No kidding. Yeah, there's something about the way that I make thoughts connect that doesn't belong. In a grid format. In a grid form. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

And I have a way with my memory that I'm able to remember how I remembered my memories at different ages. So if I was to take something like the Pannuel story, if I think about the memory, there's a feeling I get when I think about how I performed the story. There's also a feeling I can remember about when I first told my brother that story because he remembered it as a human. So know, and so I remembered that. But I can also remember how embarrassed I was a few years later when I realised that Panyal was a dumb name and no one told me.

They just laughed at me. And then I can remember being so proud of, you know, I can remember these things and I'm not sure that's how memory normally works for people. I think the feelings tend to fold in on themselves a little bit less distinctly from what I understand. See, I think what you're describing is like a really fascinating thing to tackle in the next show. I mean, like it's literally, it's fundamentally the opposite

of like what I'm describing in my show, which is like that I'm, I'm actually so grid based in terms of being like, this happened this date, this happened this date. It's sort of how I make sense of things, but yours is sort of the diametric opposite, but it's, it's, to me, it's fascinating. Well, I'm a big fan of grids and lists and things for everything other than the way I remember my own life. Like I love, you know, I love cataloging. I love making sense because I think there's a safety in that. Yeah. You know, and I guess there's a, you know,

I guess there's safety in compartmentalizing memories, but I don't seem to be able to do that. Sure. But it's interesting because you had that memory of learning to juggle and being out at a rave and all that stuff. It's so funny, isn't it? Me at a rave. You at a rave learning to juggle is hilarious. And like, what, were you good at juggling and how many of whatever you were juggling did you juggle?

Three clubs. Clubs? Yeah, like clubs, you know, like bowling pin club kind of juggling situation. That's incredible. So you learned to juggle three clubs? Yeah. And how did that happen?

I just taught myself. They were just beside some hippie's tent and I just taught myself they were just beside some hippies tent and I picked them up and just started juggling and it was kind of fun because it was like ah you know what this is I mean it's I was high but it's also how

I just want to be all the time it's like I want to ignore the world and focus on one thing yeah that makes a ton of sense. I bet that's why jugglers juggle. Yeah. Well, I don't know. I can't actually answer that.

I've never juggled again to such, like it was just, but what it did for me, it didn't open up my love of juggling. It opened up my love of hyper-focus and shutting the world out. And I'm like, actually, you know, that's not too bad. I like that. Yeah. Do you think you might talk about that in the next show? Will there even be a next show?

So the final section of the show is called Working It Out for a Cause. Is there a nonprofit or an organization that you think is doing great work right now that you would like to shine a light on? Oh, I'll shine a light on Safe Horizons. It's a domestic violence support situation. And normally, I like to sort of promote charities that are working towards structural change in terms of policy and that sort of activism. But I think in a moment like this, I'd like to shine a light on a charity that's actually

on the ground working for people in the very moment for survivors of domestic abuse, child abuse, and things like that. That's fantastic. I will contribute to them and I will encourage listeners to contribute as well. I'm going to put a link in the show notes. And thanks for doing this, Hannah. Thanks for coming on. Speaking to you makes me nervous because I'm very much in awe of your work and I just love what you're doing. So thanks. Yeah, it's been really great. I felt like I could, I usually have to rein it in, but I felt like, you know what, I think the Mickey B will get it.

Thanks, Hannah. It's now my name for you, Mickey B. You're welcome. Mickey B, that's how I'm known in some circles. He's a story guy, Mickey B. Working it out, because it's not done. Working it out, because there's no hope. That's another episode of Working It Out.

This is Mickey B, the story guy. I want to give a special thanks to our guest, Hannah Gadsby. You can see both of her specials. I would watch them in order, mentioned on Netflix. That was Nanette and then Douglas. Thanks to Hannah's team for helping arrange this interview. Jenny, Sammy, Molly. Thanks to our friends at Netflix.

Our producers of Working It Out are Peter Salamone and Joseph Birbiglia. Consulting producer, Seth Barish. Sound mix by Kate Balinski. Assistant editor, Mabel Lewis. Special thanks to my consigliere, Mike Berkowitz, as well as Marissa Hurwitz. Always a big thank you to Jack Antonoff for the music. To my wife, J. Hope Stein. Our book is everywhere.

Thanks for all the positive comments and feedback on all the sites and the things. Also, if you like this podcast, click subscribe and put all kinds of stars and decorations and comments. Special thanks to my daughter, Una, who created my radio fort. Special thanks to Sam Adams, who is presenting the Restaurant Strong Fund. Join them today at SamuelAdams.com. Most of all, thanks to you who listened today. Spread the word. Tell your friends. Tell your enemies. We're working it out.