Mike Birbiglia's Working It Out - 50. Kate Micucci: Don't Think Thrice

Episode Date: August 9, 2021

For the 50th episode Mike welcomes Kate Micucci, another member of the “Don’t Think Twice” cast. Kate is one half of the folk comedy duo Garfunkel & Oates and her creative talents stretch from music to acting to visual art. Kate shares some of her latest cartoons-in-progress and the two friends go deep on postpartum depression and its lesser known cousin “post-artum depression.“ The episode goes from silly to serious to nostalgic the way the best friendships do. https://826national.org/

Hey, everybody. We're back with a new episode of Working It Out. It's our 50th. It is our 50th episode. Thanks for being part of this wild, wild experiment that I did not see coming. I did not think that we would be a year later from mid-June 2020 on our 50th episode of Working It Out. It's because of you

and it's because of people like our guest today, Kate Micucci, who I adore. One of the most creative people I've ever encountered. She and I collaborated on the film Don't Think Twice. And you may know her from Big Bang Theory.

You may know her comedy duo Garfunkel and Oates, which I love. I couldn't recommend their stuff more highly. She is a visual artist and cartoonist. If you look at her stuff on Instagram, it's at Kate Micucci. I'm going to post some of it on my Instagram, at her bigs. A lot of the stuff that she works out in terms of material today is visual. And they're cartoons, so I'm going to post those. And I think she's going to post some of those as well.

It is a really personal episode. We're close friends. She's a new mom. We talk about really personal stuff and sensitive stuff and deep things. But we also just goof around. Kate's one of the funniest people I know and the silliest people I know. We have a great time. So I hope you enjoy my conversation with the great Kate Micucci. I was preemptively going to name this episode Don't Think Thrice, which is what we always call the hypothetical sequel of Don't Think Twice, the movie that you and I were in together.

But you know what's so funny about our relationship, and this relates to a lot of creatives listening to this show, and one of the things that to this show and and like one of the things that's interesting about yours and my relationship is that I wrote Don't Think Twice and then the character that you ended up playing uh I wrote as a playwright and she wrote all these plays that thematically have to do with sort of like coming to the end of the road and sort of like being at an existential crossroads kind of thing. And then you and I met over Zoom, basically. And we started talking about, this was years ago, 2015,

when I was casting the movie. And then you seemed really into doing the movie and I seemed really into having you in the movie. And then I was looking at your amazing drawings online, and then I floated this idea to you, which was, what if instead of being a playwright, this character was writing a graphic novel? Would you use your own drawings?

And you were like, sure, yeah. And then it became, it took on its own life. One of my most proud things is that I drew the cartoon on the crew sweatshirts. Oh my gosh, that's hilarious. Yeah, that was so cool for me to be able to share my drawings and put it into the movie like you did. That was such a cool thing. And yeah, I mean, I don't know.

I feel like that just sort of was a serendipitous, it kind of just worked out. I feel like that's one of the things that I love about small films. And not that I don't like big films. Big films, I think, sometimes are incredible. When they work, they really work. But small films, like one of my favorite movies is the movie Once. And the reason why I love it so much is that, you know, they are a musical duo. Yeah. Or they were a musical duo for so many years. And so when you film that and you put it into a narrative structure, it just comes to life in this way. And so similarly, I feel the way about your cartooning

is like you put your cartoons into this preexisting script and there's a synergy to it where you're like, I don't even know if this might be, you know, this might be a documentary for all we know. Well, I mean, yeah, it feels real because it's real. Like I just love when there are moments in movies, like you're saying, like there are so many things where it was a real thing. Well, what I would say about it is like in big studio films, saying like there are so many things where that was a real thing i was well well what i what i

would say about it is like in big studio films it's like let's say movies like budgeted 60 million dollars and i'm directing the movie and it's like and i'm directing i'm like i kate is in the movie can i use kate's drawings and they it would go to an agent or something and they'd be like that costs one million dollars so we have 59 million dollars to now spend on this movie no right so so then it becomes this weird thing where like with an independent film the budget is so transparent because it's so small that like everyone knows that no one's making a million dollars so it literally becomes a question of like, do you want to have that be part of the movie or not?

And if not, no big deal. And if you do, great, but we're not going to pay you because the movie, no one's making any money. I think that's the spirit of smaller movies. And I mean, it's like, you said something when we were making Don't Think Twice that I always remember where you said, no matter how much I do and how much I work and like, I still feel like I'm just going to be changing my clothes in a church bathroom.

And. Oh, my gosh. Yes. Which is where we would change. And it's like, that's so true. Because we didn't have trailers. We didn't have anything. So, yeah, the changing rooms would be like, you know, church bathrooms or like a local like YMCA or whatever it is. You just do whatever you need to do.

And it's like that spirit is, it's, I love it. It's the, you know, it's like very exciting. I mean, yes, it's exciting to also have a trailer, but like it's really exciting to try to like, you know, make do with what you got. Yeah, we had so much fun making that movie. And like, I think that's why, like, first of all, that's why it was fun to see Keegan Husserl live. Oh my gosh, that was wild. It was so exciting. Isn't that trippy? It was great. Because it's of course the plot point major plot point in Don't Think Twice is that Keegan is cast on our doppelganger version of Saturday Night Live which is called Weekend Live in Don't Think Twice

and then just to see him host, it was very surreal. That was just such a special time. Like those few months working on that movie with you, oh my gosh, like running around New York, like, oh, I mean, you know, I love stealing shots and we were in the subway and we're dressed in our tuxedos. And it was like, I have so many great, great memories from that time.

Oh my God, I totally forgot how many shots we stole. People should know that when you make independent films, you can't afford, for example, to rent the subway or to build a fake subway. And so the term independent filmmaking is stealing shots. You show up with a camera. They call it running and gunning. And it's like you basically, I think the rules technically are you can't put a tripod down. And so you can legally film, but it's sort of like very nebulous what the rules are. And so if your actors are game for doing it, it's fun.

But sometimes your actors aren't game for doing it. And then you're sort of like, all right, what do we do? I mean, for me, it feels like we're breaking some laws, even though it's the most innocent of things. I remember that we were having to be really serious on the subway and have this serious look. We're all just kind of in thought. And the girl seated in the...

I was just hanging on the subway standing up and this girl wanted my attention, but I was just ignoring her because we were shooting. And she was like, excuse me. Yeah. Yeah. And she was like, excuse me, excuse me. And I was just not, not acknowledging her, which felt weird, but also I was like, I can't mess up the shot. And then she knocked on my hand like it was a door. Excuse me. Yeah. Are you on the Big Bang Theory?

And I was like, yeah, I was. Oh, my God. That's so funny. But I just love that she knocked on me like, excuse me. One of my fondest memories from Don't Think Twice is when it came out at South by Southwest. It was at the Paramount Theater, which is actually one of the theaters I'm touring in the fall in Austin, Texas.

And I love that theater, but it was on the big screen and it was like, whatever, 1,200 people in the room. No one had seen the movie as a group before. And the whole cast is there. And then afterwards we went backstage and it was all of us, all the cast, and we're all crying. Yeah, that was...

I've never had that with a movie or anything. I think it was just such a... Like the whole experience was... Like it sounds cheesy, but it was just so... At least I always was feeling like this is really special. Like this is different and the movie feels really special. And I think that night, just like feeling the audience

and I think it was like received exactly how we had hoped. And yeah, I think it was just almost like this relief of like, you know, they liked it. We liked it. You've been part of the folk comedy duo Garfunkel Notes for, I would say, going on 15 years? Almost, yeah. We started in 2007, so yeah, whatever that math is, a long time. Yeah, 14 years.

So my favorite song of yours of all time is Pregnant Women Are Smug. Right? Pregnant women are smug. Everyone knows it. Nobody says it because they're pregnant. And then you got pregnant. Yeah. And you now have a baby boy or a boy.

Yeah, he's getting to be not so much a baby boy anymore. Yeah, he's like a – my husband much a baby boy anymore. He's, yeah, he's like, my husband cut his hair a week and a half ago and he went from being like a baby to like, oh, he's a boy, you know? Yeah, yeah. He's totally a boy. And, but my question is,

when you were pregnant, were you smug? I don't know. I don't, I mean, I'd like to think I wasn't smug, but who knows? I mean, I guess you'd have to ask the people that were around me. I was, I was mostly just like terrified the whole time. I wasn't really, I was really nervous as a pregnant person. And then the last three months of my pregnancy, I could hardly breathe. Oh, my gosh.

So I was just kind of – it wasn't easy. It hasn't really been easy. So I don't know. I think I was just constantly worried about just like the medical aspect of it. Yeah, of course. But – Sounds like you learned a lot from your pregnancy about your mean, mean lyrics. You know what's such a bummer is we never got to sing that song while I was pregnant.

It would have been really funny because I always play the pregnant person in the song, you know. Yeah. Yeah. But it was a terrifying experience being pregnant, I think. I mean, I had a few months where I was like, okay, I think I'm okay. And I got to work a little bit. But then, yeah, I just had a really tough last trimester. And then, yeah, Mikey, he was born in January of 2020.

And then we had the pandemic. And so it's been, it was a weird, it's been weird. But it's been weird for everyone. So I can't really, you know, everyone's felt some version of a strange time. How do you, I have to say, like, when I think about you, you know, we've been friends since the movie. So we've been friends for five years. And, like, when I think of you, I think of you as one of the most multi-talented people who I've ever encountered.

So like you draw, you play music, you write lyrics, you write jokes, you write scripts, you'd like, and I always wonder how, how do you decide what to allocate your time to? I honestly, it's, it's something, well, thank you for saying that. But also I struggle with it so much and I always have because I just don't know where to put my energy and my focus. But then, yeah, because like I could, there's so many things I love to do and I get caught up in one thing or another.

And sometimes if something catches on and it's work-related, I'll be like, okay, this is what I'm doing for the next three months. It's sort of laid out for me. But then there are other times where I'm just like, okay, what's the next thing? I don't know. And that's sort of where I'm at now because, I mean, Ricky and I, we're working on some projects together, which is very exciting. But then other than that, it's sort of like, what do I want to do? I think you can talk about that, by the way, because I saw it on the internet. Oh, yeah.

We're making an animated musical for Netflix, which is super exciting. That's so fun. Yeah. It was really cool because we sold it prior to the pandemic. And then it was, you know, it's animation and it's writing. So it's something we could work on during, you know. So it's been a nice thing to have to be able to, you know, get to work on that. And we wrote all the songs.

And it's very exciting. Amy Poehler's company is producing. Oh, that's so cool. Is it like an animated version of yourself? No, it's actually, it's a fairy tale story, kind of flipped on its head. Oh, wow. It's a really beautiful story.

Ricky wrote the script, and we worked on the story together and all the songs together. So, yeah, so that's something we've been working on, and it was sort of a nice thing to have because I had really bad postpartum depression after, which wasn't helped by the fact that I couldn't see anybody either. Right, sure. And, you know, it's funny because I had seen your show, the new one, so many times.

But nothing actually prepares you for when you have a baby in your house. Yeah. And so I didn't know I'd have to wake up so much. And then lack of sleep was just so hard. And this also, generally, I'm, I had never really dealt with depression in on this level, you know, so, so then, after a few months, getting to work, Ricky and I started writing music again, and again for the movie. And that really kind of helped pull me out of it in a way that was like, okay, who am I and what do I do? It's so funny you should say that about like there's no amount of preparation that can prepare you for the things that you feel after you have a child. And like I was talking to a friend yesterday

who just said, whose son is nine months old and is just like, you know, I saw your show a few times. I read the book and I knew, but I didn't know. There is no way to know. It's so weird. And it's awful. It's the worst. It's the worst. It's the worst because it's fundamentally the opposite of what you're told you're supposed to feel.

Yeah, it's almost like in movies when you see, like, new parents. It's like it's almost the same idea how movies portray, like, love. Like, you know, it's like, oh, so great. It's like it's terrifying and miserable. At least that was my experience for a while. No, I, by the way, at least that was my experience is my new mantra, especially talking about having kids

because it's the ultimate third rail. Like the moment you say like, the moment, you know, you say something as being a universal involving having kids people lose their minds because everyone's experience is obviously so different and they're right there isn't a single universal however however uh the thing that i describe in the show which is like this thing where people are like, isn't it the most joy you've ever experienced? And you sort of have to, sometimes you're like, yeah, and you're lying. And then sometimes you're like, actually, it's sort of complex, you know?

But some people don't want to talk about how it's complex, which I think applies to like really like all types of like experience. Yeah. Like there's so many types of experiences in life where people project onto you what they want your experience of something to be. But when it's not, if by chance it's not that, there's sort of like almost a rejection of what your experience of it is. Yeah, totally. But it's, yeah, I mean, I should have known,

but there's no way to know. How would you describe the depression? If you're comfortable talking about it. Yeah, no, you know, it's one of those things where I feel like I do want to talk about it more and more because I feel like it's so common. And I think people are talking about it a little bit more, but I feel like, you know, in general, but yeah, I just, for the beginning, maybe first

two months, couldn't stop crying. Like couldn't. And I knew something was wrong. And I went to a therapist that was supposed to specialize in this type of thing. Yeah. And she was like, okay, well, you know, do you want to kill your baby? And I was like, no, I don't at all. She's like, those thoughts don't come. And I'm like, no, that is not a thought in my head. She goes, I think you just have the baby blues.

And I was like, okay, like, that sounds cute. Like, so I, you know, I, who knows, I might have benefited from some kind of medication or something. I'm not sure, but I just took a lot, a lot of months to kind of come out of it. And yeah, I think, you know, in writing, writing with Ricky was really helpful. But I think what I was doing was I was struggling. It was almost like I just didn't feel bonded to my son like I just he's so sweet and so cute but I just was like who is this guy you know that's in my room I think I think a lot I think a lot of that is his personality a lot of that is on him I think you know he also like I always always wanted to be a mom but whenever I would imagine it I'd imagine it I'd like I always envisioned having a son so I was very excited that I had a son but I

I'd always imagined that he like we were going to the museum together playing with legos like I imagined a kid I didn't imagine a baby yeah so I was like oh there is this step yes um and I think you know think, you know, all the stuff, breastfeeding, I thought I was going to love it. I thought it was going to be so cool and bonding. And I instead felt claustrophobic all the time. I was like, what is this guy doing on me? Like it was. Oh, my gosh. Yeah.

So none of it felt good in the beginning, really, which is, you know, I wish it had been different. But, you know, I think it's just such a blur. And I think, and then when I started working a lot with Ricky, that was really helpful, but I was sort of ignoring myself. Like I was like, not, I was like just diving into my old life as much as I could to feel good. But then I was like, wait, I have to figure out how to be a mom. Like I'm not, I'm not doing that. And, um, but now I feel like, I think there was a real shift in the fall for me. So like, you know, maybe when he was turning like, you know, closer to one that I was like, okay, wait, I really got to spend some time and figure this out. And, um, and it's been really good. Like now I, I'm, I'm so much

happier and he's really awesome and we're so attached. But it took a while. It took a long while. And also I did a ton of therapy, which was helpful. It sounds like he became better as a son. And I think he had a lot of work to do himself, I think. And then once he did that work, you were able to do your work. Right?

I was reading one of your cartoons on Instagram, which, by the way, on Instagram, you have a photo of yourself topless, I believe in your backyard, from the perspective of a drone. Yeah. And no real explanation of what the photo is about. And I almost was going to call you and be like,

what is this exactly? You know, that was at the end of the day of a photo shoot. And the photographer had this vision of this drone. And I was like, yeah, let's go for it. And then she posted it. That's so funny. And I was like, why not repost it? But yeah, it's just kind of a silly thing to be like,

you know, a drone coming into your house. Was it filmed, a drone coming into your house. Was it filmed from a drone? No, I don't. Wait, was it? It does look very high up in the air. I think the camera was above the drone. It's an aerial shot. I don't remember.

It's an aerial shot of you, I believe, topless in your own backyard. Yeah. If I were to guess. Yes. About four backyards ago because we moved apless in your own backyard. Yeah. If I were to guess. Yes. About four backyards ago, because we moved a lot. Oh my gosh. Wow.

We moved four times last year. Yeah. But yeah, I think it was also kind of based on a story where I was sunbathing topless on my roof at my old loft, and the cops came on the helicopter. Oh my God, no. No. What? Yeah. And they were saying, get off the roof, get on the helicopter. Oh my God, no, no. What?

Yeah. And they were saying, get off the roof, get off the roof. And I was like, there's no way they're talking to me because this is like my apartment building that I like pay, like it's not, you know. And they were circling and they came back around and they said it again. And I was like, I guess they are talking to me.

And so I got off the roof. I don't know, but I had told the photographer that story. Is that the end of the story? Of the cops circling my room? Yeah. So that photographer, Elizabeth Karen, she had heard that story and she was like, maybe we could do something that's like that with a drone.

I was on your Instagram and there's a beautiful drawing that you did. And it says, when life hands you lemons, make a lemon for it. Some of them might get moldy, but that's okay. And I was just like, first of all, all your cartoons are so one of a kind. They're so Kate Micucci. They're just so your own deal. And second of all, I thought like,

do you ever contribute these to the New Yorker or to publications or anything? Because they're so good. Thank you. I want to, you know, I should. I just really should. I'm not a great follow througher as far as like, I have just so many things like in these bins and like in closets and like,

the thing that like the act of making something is so exciting to me. just so many things like in these bins and like in closets and like I'm, the thing, like the act of making something is so exciting to me. But then the pressure of then doing something with it, I get stuck. And that's my, it's something I need to work on.

I'm going to call that, I'm going to, Kate, I'm going to call that and I hope you don't find this offensive. Post-art depression. Post-artum depression. I know. Post-art depression. That's a great book. That's amazing. Post-art depression. And I apologize if that's offensive to people who have experienced both postpartum depression and post-artem depression, but we're laying it down right here, right now.

We've coined it. It's trademarked. Don't you dare try to trademark. We got the URL. We got the.com. We got the.biz. I wrote it all down, put it in an envelope, and mailed it to myself.

I mailed it to myself. Did you do that as a kid? If you had a great idea, I would always mail ideas to myself because then I'd be like, okay, they're copyrighted in some way. I always have heard that as urban legend, but I don't even know if it's true.

I don't know either. I don't think anyone knows. I don't know if that would hold up in a court of law. Yeah, who knows? And who knows what those ideas are that I had that I mailed to myself? Check the mail. Check the mail for your ideas. Especially if you're feeling post-Arden depression.

Okay, this is a thing called the slow round. What's the best piece of advice that anyone's ever given you that you used? Okay, this is, so I was eight, I was turning 18, it was my 18th birthday. And my mom and I went to the Today Show in New York where we held up a sign. Hilarious, I've done the same. I've done that, I did the same thing

when I was 19 years old. Yeah, yeah. It was just so exciting. You know, I grew up about, know two hours a two-hour bus ride away from New York City so my mom and I would take the bus in and like always go on fun adventures and we went there for my 18th birthday I was holding up a sign that said I'm 18 today you know and Ann Curry came over and she said oh congratulations you know like what what's your plan now you know she was just talking to us like in between a commercial break and that question always made me crumble as an 18 year old I was like I don't know

I have all these things I want to do but I was very afraid to to say like what my actual dreams were you know like to say like I want to act and I want to like make art like it just felt like oh I should say I want to be an art teacher. Cause that seems like something people would believe, you know, I didn't know what to do. So, uh, she asked me and I like just started to crumble and I wanted to cry. Like every time that question always made me want to cry. And I think she could see that in my eyes. And she said, you know, uh, she was like, I feel like you, no, she said, she said you could have a dream and go for it. Cause even if you don't end up doing that, it'll at least have gotten you to the next place. Oh my gosh. Yes, yes, yes, yes. That's exact. I love that advice.

Thank you. And I'll never forget that because I still kind of think about that. Like, okay, you know, at least I'm going in a direction and, you know, you don't have to. Anything can happen. Also, by the way, it's fundamentally all of these things that let's say I'll just like bring up some things that like you do, for example. Let's say you're working on cartooning or you're working on music or you're working on comedy writing or you're working on acting or all of those things. The more you do them, the better you get at them and the better sense you have for the craft of anything. I mean, it all helps. I mean it all helps I grew up playing classical piano and I apply the way I learn or you know music to to acting all of the time like I I think I dissect a script in the same way I dissect a piece of music and it's like I you know so that training led to another thing one of the

best pieces of advice anyone ever gave me was my writing professor in college, John Glavin, said, take a drawing class. Wow. And I was like, no, I'm bad at drawing. And he said, it doesn't matter if you're good at drawing. It's about understanding the concept of framing. And I actually attribute it to being a movie director at all. Because once I understood the concept of framing, I was like, oh, I understand how film frames work. That makes so much sense. Wow. Yeah, that's so cool.

Yeah, that's the thing. I think any kind of class, it all leads into the next thing. It's all connected, man. Somehow. Bro, bro, bro,'s all connected, man. Somehow. Bro, bro, bro, bro, bro, bro. Whoa, this is blowing my mind. Kate, you got to chill out.

We're all connected. Like, you're experiencing post-ardent depression right now, but you're not going to feel that forever. Eventually, that's going to go away. You know, it's funny how you're saying, like, after you make something. I mean, I'm sure you've experienced that feeling of like after you know wrapping a movie or or you know it's a something especially when you're directing it takes so much of your life years you know and then when it's

done there's always that that depression of like oh okay we did it now i think you're talking about post-artum depression oh that's it that's right mike i know i always feel it jen's whole thing whenever i go through it whenever i finish a big project of any kind jen's whole thing is she goes uh you have to go on stage somewhere because this Because this energy is not working around the house. Okay, this is a slow round question that is inspired by the book, Bird by Bird by Anne Lamott that I love. Gary Gullman recommended it on this podcast and I love it. But she says, describe a school lunch

from when you were a kid. Oh, wow. Okay. I mean, in high school, almost my entire high school, I had the same lunch, which was I would packet myself in the morning peanut butter and jelly and a can of Coke.

That's hilarious. That's it. And it would be in my brown bag. And by the time I got to lunch, it was kind of just like wrapped around the Coke. It was like a flat sandwich that had been sort of like smushed into, and it's just sugar, really.

I'm just trying to imagine. I love the imagery of it. It's almost like clay against a Coca-Cola. Basically. Peanut butter and jelly, like bread clay against a Coca-Cola. Like just peeling it off this like, you know, sandwich bag. And one folded napkin.

I can just picture it perfectly. Yeah. And it was sort of unfair because lunch was at like 1.15. And I got on the bus at 6 o'clock in the morning. And so I would be so hungry by 1.15. It seems unfair. There was never like a break for a snack. And I was such a rule follower

that I didn't like, you know, take my own snack. Like there wasn't a snack time. So I didn't, you know, yeah. So I'd be starving by the time lunch came around. And do you still eat that to this day? Peanut butter and jelly and Coke? You know, not as much i i today had a peanut butter and banana so i really do switch it up um but i did have a peanut butter and banana

sandwich for lunch do you remember a period in your life where you weren't authentically yourself like like you look back and you sort of cringe yeah i mean it's funny. I, in high school, there were these really cool girls that were also, they played, I played trombone in the marching band. And they also played low brass, baritone, horn, and trombone. And I just thought they were so cool. And they were older than me, and I wanted to impress them. And I don't know that they smoked pot, but I was a very, very sheltered kid. Also, I always looked way younger.

Like as you know, when I was 14, I probably looked 10. Like I always just looked much younger than I, and was tiny. So like carrying a trombone around was sort of funny, but I wanted to impress them. And I remember them talking about pot and I was like, oh, that's so cool. Like they know what that's like.

And I remember them saying, yeah, if you roll down the hill at the park, like roll your whole body down the hill, by the time you get to the bottom, you're gonna feel like you're high. And I was like, wow, they know what it feels like to be high. This is so cool.

So that weekend, my mom and I, well, we would, as a family, always go to the flea market. And there was like all this jewelry and there was this pot leaf, gold pot leaf chain. And I asked my mom, can I get this necklace? And she said, sure. And so I bought this marijuana necklace. This is phenomenal.

And then I wore it to school. And I was like really hoping that the girls would notice and they did and I was like yeah no like you know I I think it's cool like you know just trying to play it real you know like I was in in on it and then um and then I wore that necklace for my school picture oh my gosh so you know what's so funny is like a lot of your, so you have the marijuana leaf story and then you have the woman at the Today Show giving you advice because you're used to the art teacher just because you thought that sounded like something that someone would want you to say. And then you talk about like having postpartum depression because you're not experiencing the thing that people want your motherhood to feel like, essentially. But it's like, but it seems like a recurring theme, but maybe I'm reading in. I mean, yeah, I guess so.

I mean, in some way, I think I always, I feel like I have a pretty good center for the most part of like who I am, but then I'll get thrown out of it like having a baby. Then I was like, whoa, who am I? And I'm still kind of like, who am I? I think for the past year, every week, I'm like, yeah, I'm feeling more like myself. I think I say that all the time. Yeah. I've been saying it. But yeah, I think that like there's always certain things in my life that I can sort of do and feel like, oh, yes, this is me.

And like one of them is just listening to the Broadway channel on Sirius, like any kind of Broadway music. I love Broadway so much. In fact, Ricky and I are working on a Broadway show right now, which is very exciting. But so it's like that to me, like, like the things I love, like, like watching I Love Lucy, like that is such a centering thing for me because I love it so much

and I feel like it's like a part of my DNA from when I was a kid and like certain things like that will help me to like get centered again. I know that maybe sounds crazy, but, but yeah, there's,

you know, I think everybody probably has times like that where you get thrown off, out of your shoes. Sure. Out of your shoes. I've never heard that phrase has times like that where you get thrown out of your shoes. Sure, out of your shoes. I've never heard that phrase. I like that. Me neither. That's a cartoon.

When you get a lot of people, when they get post-artem depression, one of the symptoms of it is they get thrown out of their shoes. Yeah. Yeah, well, and I didn't even fit in my shoes after I had Mikey because my feet were so fat. They like blew up like balloons. This is like my favorite thing about spending time with you

is that if you throw in a non sequitur into a conversation, usually it just sits there. But with you, you just run with it do you have a memory from your childhood that like you think about sometimes but it's not a story it's just sort of like a thing that uh remember and you go, oh, yeah, sort of thing. You know, it's funny because I started listening to your podcast and I'm going back now. I'm like listening to all of them. And when you asked this, the first thing I thought of the first time I heard you ask this question was when I was in seventh grade, my parents wanted me to go to the school dance.

And I was like, no, I don't want to go to the school dance. It felt scary to me. And I just had no interest. And my dad said, I'll give you $5 if you go to the dance. And so my dad bribed me. And I went there and I wore my Phantom of the Opera t-shirt. You know that like classic one that has just the mask? It's like this giant mask. t-shirt you know that like classic one that has just the mask it's like this giant mask and it was a glow-in-the-dark mask so it's this huge kind of glowy shirt um and i wore jeans and like a braided belt i remember it so well um but i just did not participate at all i didn't dance at all i sat in the bleachers of the gym where the dance was happening. And I just quietly sang Phantom of the Opera to myself. Oh my gosh.

That's so weird. And that does pop in my head like, you know, a few times a year, if not more. And I'd always be like, wow, that was so weird. I was, I did not like seventh grade. Seventh grade's hard. It was a rough time. Really hard. You get thrown in, at least with with my school there were so many new

students that were thrown in and um you know i it was just i was out of my element i felt so comfortable in sixth grade and then you know seventh grade really threw me for a loop i think similarly like i went to shrewsbury middle school in seventh grade and yeah we had those dances and you just, my memory of it is, I remember the DJ, it said it on the ticket, DJ Buzz Boyda. I still, I don't know why I still remember that. DJ Buzz Boyda. Yeah, I know, right?

What's Buzz Boyda doing these days? Still at the school dances, guess no probably not but i remember like thinking like um everyone else and of course this is i think what everybody feels as an adult you can look back and and it seems so obvious but it's like i felt like everyone else seems to know what they're doing here and And I have no idea what I'm doing here. Yeah. I didn't even want to be there. Like it was just, yeah, I didn't want to take the bus.

My dad would drive me in his van, his work van. It's like all electrical equipment in it because my dad's an electrician. And he would drive me to middle school every day. And we'd listen to Howard Stern on the way there. And I thought that was really cool. Yeah. And there were certain times he'd have to turn it off depending on what the subject matter was. But I just have these really clear memories of driving in the electric van to seventh grade. But yeah, I just wasn't ready. I think I fought growing up the entire time.

You know, just I didn't want to grow up. So I'm working on, this is like the material section of the show. And every night before I go to bed, I write in a gratitude journal. And so far it's empty. But no, it's chock full of stuff like seeing my daughter's eyes light up the first time she tasted pizza or sharing an inside joke with my wife about our cat Mazzy or even just like drinking a cup of coffee alone in the grass on a day that's not too hot, not too cold. And a few years ago, I'm writing in my gratitude journal about how I was teaching Una how to play soccer

and that Jen had suggested that Una and I play soccer on the same team, which is how I learned that it's more fun to score a goal with your daughter than to defeat her by a margin of 15 to 1. So Una and I are dribbling down the field, and it's daddy to Una, Una to daddy, daddy to Una, score, Una, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal my gratitude journal. So that's just something I just wrote down this week and I'm toying with in the show. I love your chanting.

Go, go, go, go, go, go! There's almost something you could do where that just goes on for like two minutes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, isn't that funny? Like, I'm sure you find this

with Garfunkel and Oates over the years. It's like, you see how long an audience will let you do something. Until they get mad or you feel the turn. And that, to me, is so thrilling. I love it. Because when you sense the anger and the uncomfortable, like, the emotions in the seat, like, oh, this is still happening.

And it's like you kind of then, you know, you can learn where the point is where you have to switch over. But like. I love that. Well, it's funny because Mabel, who works on the show, I was telling her that bit and she said, and this was an interesting like flag of caution. She goes, maybe don't say gratitude journal, just say journal. Because I do, I do actually do both.

I write in my journal. I write in a gratitude journal, just say journal. Because I do actually do both. I write in my journal. I write in a gratitude journal. But she was saying that like the connotations of a gratitude journal are a little bit like, I don't know, sort of like new agey in this way that might be misleading. That's interesting. Yeah, it's a little bit more, I don't know. I picture it being like having like a very frilly kind of flowery type of.

My gratitude journal. Yeah, where a journal does, yeah, she might be right about that. I don't know. I mean, but it is, I mean. But it's also very sweet that you have a gratitude. I mean, maybe that you talk about. I think that's what it is. I think I need to discuss it more.

I think so too. Because, yeah, I don't know think that's what it is. I think I need to discuss it more. I think so too because, yeah, I don't know anyone that has a gratitude journal. So, you know, yeah, I think talking about that would be good. Because it's like I started doing it because so much of what I write in my journal is just like, you know, it's just like, know it's just like I wish I had more time to read books

you know what I mean like angry about whatever thing and it's and it's like the gratitude journal was an attempt to go in the other direction

yeah all the positive positive comments go in this one and then all the sad mad stuff goes but I it's interesting because journaling,

for me, like we're talking about depression, it's like sometimes when I have depression, I write in a journal because like putting, it's like a cognitive therapy exercise by putting down sort of my most angry or like emotional thoughts, I can sort of see them on the page and contextualize them in like my larger sort of existence. Yeah. I mean, I think it's so like, again, this might sound new agey or whatever,

but it's really powerful to write something down and to have it in writing. So like, I mean, I think too, I've always like writing down your intentions or your plans. Like Ricky and I used to do this thing when we first met and and we did it for years and years, where we would just go to the California Pizza Kitchen and write down our goals. Oh, I love that. And we would share our goals with each other. And it's really, like, incredible to have someone

to kind of hold you accountable for those goals. And also, it's, like, scary to share your goals with someone. I love that. And so we would write them down on a napkin and then keep them in our wallets or our purses and then like check in with each other. And so, yeah, I think that like something like that, like just writing down,

whenever you write something down, it's like, it gives it more power. Well, you know, when I wrote Don't Think Twice, I had had the idea in my mind for about a year or two and I hadn't committed to writing the script pages. And finally, I had this reckoning with myself where I said to myself, wait a minute. I show up to lunch meetings with people who I'm working for. I show up to my acting gigs or whatever the thing is, but I'm not showing up for myself.

I show up to my acting gigs or whatever the thing is, but I'm not showing up for myself. And so I decided to set, to put a note, I put a little note card next to my bed that said, Mike, Mike, Mike, exclamation point. You have a meeting at 7 a.m. at Cafe Pedlar with your mind. And then I would show up every, I would show up to my meeting with myself. And I wrote that script in like, probably like three months of meetings with myself. Wow.

Yeah. I mean, that's the hardest thing. Like it's hard to make time for your mind. Yeah. You know, like you can plan to meet with anyone else for lunch, but then when it's like, oh, I gotta actually do this. It's, yeah. You have to, if it's written down, you'll do it. do you have anything that you're working on that you want to bounce off of me you know i i have a few cartoons i would love that um there's one that i've been trying to

figure out my brain but do you do this thing where you're like, oh, I'm sure this already exists. There's no way that I'm the person that came up with this. I think about that all the time. I always Google the thing. I come up with ideas and then I go, someone must have thought of this. And I Google it. And if there's nothing obvious, I go, well, I don't know. I guess it's not out there.

And then people will let you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No one's shy about that, no. Especially with the internet. But I have this idea for a cartoon where it says, for those of you who believe the vaccine has a chip in it, sorry to inform you, you've already been chipped and you're staring at that chip right now. And it's a picture of someone looking at their phone.

Oh, I love that. Yeah. You know? And maybe, I don't know, it would say Twilight Zone, but no, maybe not. But I, because it's, you know and then maybe and maybe i don't know it would say twilight zone but no maybe not but i i because it's why would it say twilight it's like you're staring at the chip and then because if they're if they're looking at the cartoon on their phone it's like the chip is their phone i don't know it's but uh maybe at the end of it you could say and by and by reading this message you will be charged $5 to your credit card or something like that.

That it's like, yeah. And they also know that you ate at Chipotle two hours ago or whatever. I don't know. I mean. Or you could say like, click could say like um um click here to accept terms and conditions oh that's good that's really good um do you have any other cartoons that you're working on um these are just one let me see um i have one i i was trying to crack this where it's like so one time I actually I had a list of things

like a to-do list and one of the things was car wash and it was a beautiful day so I walked to the car wash and then I got there and I was like

oh you need to have your car like in my brain I was so tired and I wasn't like that you but it's sort of a hard thing

to figure out that's hilarious wait it's sort of a hard thing to figure out. That's hilarious. Wait, is that a true story? Yeah. And you were trying to figure out how to make it a cartoon. Yeah, because it's really complicated. But one time I was so tired, I walked to the car wash. And then a person just goes, oh.

Okay, so it says, one time I was so tired, I walked to the car wash. But I kind of have to explain that my intention was to wash my car. I guess maybe I could just write that with the intention of washing my car. What about one day I was so tired, I walked to the car wash and realized that you need to have a car. Yeah, something like that.

To wash. Yeah. Or while my dirty car sat in the driveway or something. I don't know. How do you, do you work from pictures or from the caption, the cartoon caption? You know, I often just start drawing and I don't really have a plan

and it just starts to happen. But I also kind of get in a fog where I just, it's like that kind of state of just – I don't know where exactly it comes. But it's normally – normally, like, I just start drawing. You know, I don't know. You're like – well, that's how I call it my, like, whatever. A lot of people call it this morning pages. But, like, I'll just start writing about what I'm thinking about.

And then usually by the end of the writing, I realize what it is I'm writing about. Yeah. I could do that sometimes. Like I'll look back on cartoons and be like, wow, I know exactly what this is about now, but I had no idea, you know, like I was in a relationship that I felt really kind of trapped by. And there were so many like, like kind of just like, just weird, like trapped cartoons. Like, you know, like I'm in a cage. Yeah. Oh, that's interesting.

That's fascinating. So you learned that about yourself, that that's how you were feeling. Later, I was like, I know exactly what this is. But at the time. Do you have any more? Do you have any more? Oh yeah.

But did you want to do some more? No, no, I'll do, I'm going to do one more in a second. And then you could do a couple more now if you want. You know, this one sort of has like a bit of like, you know, new parent material, which I feel like you are so good at. But I didn't know I would be this tired. I didn't know I would love you this much. I didn't know poop could fly.

And then it's just like poop flying in their hair. That's so sweet. It can fly. Yeah, yeah. I saw it happen. What else do you have? Do you have another one there? Yeah, I have, this is so stupid.

Since the pandemic happened, we don't have to shake hands anymore. I'd rather greet you with a kick and a snap and a shimmy, shimmy, boom, boom. Oh, my gosh. I don't know. That's so funny. And then the drawing is like you dancing, doing the shimmy, shimmy, boom, boom. Shimmy, boom, boom. That's just silly.

I love that. You know what's so funny? You saying this is so stupid. I feel like whenever I pitch jokes to my brother or my friends or Peter or Mabel, my director, so often I'm prefacing it with, this is so stupid. But then like one in ten this is so stupids is great. Yeah. Like here's one of my this is so stupids. Okay, great.

Kids grow up so fast, but not as fast as blue whales. I know that's so good. Blue whales gain about 30 pounds a day, and that's got to be an existential crisis for those whale parents. It feels like just yesterday you were 30 tons, and now you're 90 tons. Time flies when you eat 700 pounds of krill a day and have 400 weird teeth plates. You know what's so funny is I thought that it was done

at the first sentence. I thought that was it. It's done. But then when you expand, I mean, because that alone is funny. But you know what? But then hearing all the stuff is great, the actual funny. But you know what? But then hearing all the stuff is great, the actual facts. But you know what? Like, as I'm running it by you, I'm like, maybe it just lives on its own.

Kids grow up so fast, but not as fast as blue whales, and then you move on to the next joke. Yeah. I mean, that to me is really funny. By the way, that's precisely the audience thing. The audience tells you if a joke is done or if there's room for more, and that might be just done. I mean, I like, because, you know, you just imagine whales grow up fast. Totally.

Totally. They're enormous. And then I have one more about Una, which is my daughter had all this pain in the back of her knees. And so we took her to the pediatrician. But the doctor asked a question that was too open-ended. She said, Una, what's going on with you? And Una says, my knee hurts and it's my grandma's birthday. And I was like, whoa, let's focus on the knee hurts part. Your grandma's had enough birthdays.

It's not like I'm rooting against grandma, but I feel like we need to know the order of priority. My knee hurts and it's my grandma's birthday. Are there other things she said or was that pretty much it? Oh, my God. Because I feel like you could go on and on with, like, the sweet, innocent things. Well, that's the thing. I probably wrote this when she was three. And, like, it's this thing about toddlers where everything has the same level of importance.

Mm-hmm. And so the, you know, kids will just be like, you know, and I have a, you know, and I have a blue shirt and I went swimming and grandpa is dead. Yes. Yes. is dead. Yes. So the thing that we end on, Kate,

is the guest chooses a nonprofit that they think is doing a good job, and then I contribute to them and I link to them in the show notes. That is, thank you. I think that's the coolest thing. And you know, a charity that I often work with is 826LA, which, um, they have the travel mart in Echo Park and they, you know, they really, they help students often from like

lower income, uh, families, uh, to have tutoring and really help kids with their creative side and, you know, with their creative writing and poetry. And, um, I think it's, it's such an important thing, especially with a lot of schools not having a lot of art. So they do a great job. And I really love what they do over there. So that's often a charity that I support. That's a great organization. And we're going to link to them in the show notes.

And thanks, Kate, for being a part of this. You're always such a joy to talk to. And I feel so lucky that we're friends and that we've been able to work together, and hopefully we'll work on a bunch more stuff together. I would love it. I'm so grateful for you, Mike. Thank you for having me on your podcast. Working it out, because it's not done. Working it out, because there's no...

That's going to do it for another episode of Working It Out with Kate Micucci. Once again, uh, follow her on Instagram. One of the best follows on Instagram is at Kate McCoochie. Uh, uh, and if you follow me,

I'm at for bigs and I'm going to post some of her cartoons. And I think she is as well. She's a phenomenally, just a phenomenally talented person in so many ways. Uh, watch out for whatever she is doing next because she's wildly talented and just such a cool and fascinating person.

Our producers of Working It Out are myself, along with Peter Salamone and Joseph Birbiglia, consulting producer Seth Barish, sound mix by Kate Belinsky, associate producer Mabel Lewis, special thanks to Mike Insiglieri, Mike Berkowitz, as well as Marissa Hurwitz and Josh Upfall. Special thanks, as always, to Jack Antonoff and Bleachers for their music. The Bleachers' new album just dropped. It is

beautiful. You should go back and listen to my episode with Jack Antonoff. It's a great episode. His new album is phenomenal. I think it's the best work they've ever done. As always, a very special thanks to my wife, the poet J. Hope Stein. Our book, The New One, comes out on paperback in September at your local bookstore. As always, a special thanks to my daughter, Una, who created our radio fort. Thanks most of all to you who have listened. Tell your friends.

Tell your enemies. We're working it out. We're 50 strong. We'll see you next time.