Mike Birbiglia's Working It Out - 55. Sterlin Harjo: Comedy From Tragedy and Reservation Dogs

Episode Date: September 27, 2021

Filmmaker Sterlin Harjo co-created the smash comedy hit Reservation Dogs for FX about four Indigenous teenagers growing up on a reservation in Oklahoma. Sterlin tells Mike about the time he accidentally taped over someone's wedding video while applying to the Sundance Film Lab. He also discusses Native representation in film & how his new series may represent some sense of hope. Many laughs. Many challenging topics. A little backstrap. https://wellforculture.com/

I grew up with stories of struggle and it's a very subtle thing, but I knew, you know, just through stories and being told history like, oh, you're here because you exist in Oklahoma because the U.S. government made your people walk from Alabama, Georgia, Mississippi and Florida to Oklahoma and a lot of you died. and Florida to Oklahoma, and a lot of you died. And it's like, you know, that's ever present. You know, I think like in indigenous storytelling, like we faced a lot of that struggle through humor. And so for me, my favorite humor is the humor that butts up against tragedy. Hey, everybody, we are back with a new episode of Working It Out. This is a really, truly fascinating episode today. Unlike anyone we've done, our guest is Sterling Harjo, who is a native indigenous independent filmmaker and sketch comedian who came up through Sundance Film Labs,

made a bunch of feature films that are fantastic, and then recently teamed up with Taika Waititi for an incredible comedy series that I've been tweeting about and posting about I love on FX called Reservation Dogs, which just got picked up for its second season.

It takes place on a native reservation in Oklahoma. Couldn't recommend it more highly. He also directed a documentary about his family and about his Native community called This May Be the Last Time that I absolutely loved as well. Enjoy my conversation with the great Sterling Harjo you just got picked up for your second season yeah yeah we did

and it's on FX and I watched it on Hulu which I guess everyone watches it on Hulu I don't even know like I don't even know how any of this works

but but then I I sort of started digging into your feature films Everyone watches it on Hulu. I don't even know. I don't even know how any of this works. But then I sort of started digging into your feature films and your documentary. And this maybe the last time was really interesting for me because this show, Working It Out, the premise of it is I'm working out my next show in real time. And my next show is called The Old Man and the Pool. And it's all about death and mortality and this may be the last time thematically almost right down the line that precisely that and it's about the musical traditions of native people and uh and and how and death and mortality and death and mortality yeah well i mean i think that like you know coming from oklahoma i mean i'm really drawn to like southern gothic right like you know uh and and i feel like that type of storytelling from the south and from rural areas

i mean that's what it's concerned with right it's like death and mortality because that is the i mean and and honestly that's the main thing we should all be concerned with you know it's like that is the thing right and you know it's, it's like, I could read a book like As I Lay Dying every, you know, like that's my jam. Like we gotta get mom across the river. She's dead and she is in a casket, you know, like for some reason, it's like the cross section of spirituality, death, the unknown, and also somewhere in there for me is humor. But I think like through that, I think that, and this is just me trying to figure it out myself, but like Native people, indigenous people, you know, we're here because we survived, right? Like, you know, I grew up with stories of struggle and it's a very subtle thing, but I knew, you know, just through stories and being told history, like, oh, you're here because you exist in Oklahoma because the U.S. government made your

people walk from Alabama, Georgia, Mississippi, and Florida to Oklahoma, and a lot of you died. And it's like, you know, that's ever present. You know, I think like, and in indigenous storytelling, like we faced a lot of that struggle through humor. And so for me, my favorite humor is the humor that butts up against tragedy. You know, it's like, it's like that humor that exists, there's almost not a line between those two things, you know? And I just find that interesting, I think. Yeah, I mean, that's how I felt when I was watching the documentary.

And, you know, it's worth noting that the phrase, this may be the last time, is a line from a native song. Yeah. So it speaks to the idea of like, this may be the last time we don't, I think the end of the line is we don't know. Yeah, we don't know, yeah. Yeah, and that song trails back through, you know, it's like, it was a slave spiritual song.

It was also this Muskogee Creek hymn. And then it travels through where it becomes kind of a blues standard, basically. And then the Rolling Stones have This Could Be the Last Time. The staple singers, I believe, had a recording of it first. Yeah, there's this astonishing piece of footage where you see the Rolling Stones singing it like on a talk show in the documentary. And you're like, oh my God. Like the degree to which, I mean, like the term cultural appropriation is used quite a bit these days. But like the Rolling Stones clip is, oh wow, this is a full appropriation.

This is, they just, they stole the line wholesale and put it in their song. Yeah, stole or, you know, I think that it's a little loose back then as far as like, you know, these songs that became sort of folk standards and blues standards. And then it's like, it was a bit of free reign, you know, I think for modern artists to adapt and take some of those songs, you know? Yeah. I was watching that documentary and I was thinking about,

you work through mortality through this discussion of the tradition of songs. But I think that jokes are so similar. And like you're saying, humor is so similar. It's like, how do we cope with this thing that we're all somewhat, at least somewhat terrified of and we will face eventually. And I think one of the ways is song and one of them is jokes. No, I mean, I believe that. And like,

you know, humor for me, I mean, I'm such a fan of comedy, you know, like I've been such a, it's interesting because I get taught, I get asked a lot. I used to, before Reservation Dogs came out, I was asked a lot I used to before Reservation Dogs came out I was asked a lot from people back home that knew me in high school they were like why won't you make a comedy you're funny you're always cutting up you're kind of a class clown

why are you making these sad movies and I think you're right they're so connected to me but then transitioning into Reservation Dogs like they're so connected to me. Like these, like the, but then transitioning into Reservation Dogs, it was very easy because, you know, I had a, there's a comedy group that I formed with a few other guys called the 1491s. And no one wanted to hear native comedy

because no one knew what it was and no one gave a shit. And first of all, they didn't, they barely knew that we wore blue jeans and listened to iPods. So coming out of the gate saying like, hey, there's this form of comedy that I want you to get into. I think you'll be into it.

No one is wanting to see that at first. And so they were funding dramas like i was getting a i was making low budget drama dramatic films you know like that's what they wanted to see and this is out of just to give context this is like you were out of film school right and i was out of film school i went through the sundance labs sundance lab yep yeah and then i came out of that and i started i went to la there was a lot of things saying, people saying, I heard a lot of things like, you know, Native American films don't sell. What, this isn't native enough. Like, is this, or this is too native or whatever. And so I really went back to Oklahoma where I am right now. And I just started making my films and made them on a

very micro level budget. At the same time, I started a comedy group called the 1491s because we were like, man, how do we get our humor out? There's no place for native people to go and see our humor displayed. And so we started making these videos and posting them on YouTube, you know, and they sort of took off within the indigenous native community and it became kind of a staple, like college kids and even like elders, everyone was watching these videos that we were putting out, you know? Wow. And so for, but for me, like, I love that because it was really kind of training ground into like filming comedy for me, like, because it's, you

know, as you know, it's like when you're working out jokes or, or even like, you know, shooting a comedy, you don't shoot it exactly like a drama. And I had only been shooting dramas. And so having this sketch group, I was able to really practice and see how a joke can be shot to work. Also, like one of the things that helped me when making Reservation Dogs is learning what makes non-Native people laugh and Native people laugh at the same time.

Like how do we make everyone laugh instead of just our community and our people, you know? Yeah. And there was a bit of like inviting people into our world and letting them laugh with us. There's a little like permission you have to give them to laugh because I feel like people hold native people

in this like really earnest place. You know, like we're very mystical and like we're talking to ghosts and stuff. And so like you have to give people permission to come in and like laugh. Like we're also alive. And I think there's like guilt and genocide has to do with all that stuff. you have to give people permission to come in and like laugh like we're also alive and but I and I think there's like guilt and genocide has to do with all that stuff but like um so it was really

that doing that comedy sketch comedy group and filming those was really helpful in creating reservation dogs and just learning how a joke works you know um how does a joke work on a tv show you know um there's not really a school for that unless you're just doing it and fucking it up. That's absolutely true. And like, and Reservation Dogs, I think is hilarious. And it's the best kind of comedy mixed with tragedy. I would almost compare it to like Freaks and Geeks or like Stand By Me or like one of these shows where it's kids

and they're just kids being kids and they're fucking a lot of stuff up, but also they're learning a lot. And it's like, so it's like all at once, everything. You know, Stand By Me, those movies were, were really informative to this. I mean, even like Rumble Fish and The Outsiders, you know, where it's like these, you know, which were shot here in Tulsa. And so like, it's kind of a part of your memory as a child growing up. But like, you know, I love movies or shows where kids aren't being quirky adults, you know, like they're being kids, but also faced with real shit and drama, you know, and there's humor and there's your world and there's your point of view. But it's like, how do they handle that drama through their point of view? You know, it's different than I think adults.

I don't know. Like that was sort of the goal with Reservation Dogs. Yeah. with native comedy, you know, where are you letting people come in to your culture and then where are you sort of showing them something that's outside of their experience?

Because, because the way I always think of jokes is you have your setup, which is something we always, we all agree to be true

and you have your punchline, which is sort of a right turn from that truth and then I always think of tags as being sort of like once you're in your punchline, which is sort of a right turn from that truth. And then I always think of tags as being sort of like once you're in that punchline universe, here's some digressions of what else could be true. If this is true, what else is true? And so the mathematics of jokes are like that. of the things that must be a challenge with native comedy is that the america just the american

experience uh alone in terms of understanding native history is all over the map yeah and so your your your setup uh is not necessarily agreed upon right right you know what i mean there's there are people who go like well the native it native, it wasn't a genocide. It was disease or whatever. And you go like, no, no, no, it was a genocide. You know what I mean? There's a lot of disparity if you dig into the different people telling the histories what the history is. And so then you have to deal with that from a joke perspective, I feel like. is. And so then you have to deal with that from a joke perspective, I feel like.

Yeah. I mean, there's so many like books that come out that are like, oh, actually the Comanche were, you know, like brutal people, you know, it's like, well, sure they were brutal. They were like running for their homes and their lives, right? Like if you're taking them into context from this moment that you're talking about, of course you could read it that way. Or it's like, there's a lot of revisionist history, I feel like, and no one does agree about our history. I mean, it's depressing talking about it. Yeah, of course, yeah. And I think growing up, it's like you watch movies where your people are represented as the zombies, right?

And like the bad guys. And so all of that, there's a lot of baggage that comes into, all right, let's go make them laugh. Indian jokes. Sure. Like, let's go. Sure. And so, and I do think that one of the things that we did with Reservation Dogs was kind of acknowledge that.

And we had to acknowledge, like if I said to your audience or whoever, 90% of the people in the world, if I said like, draw me a Native American person, like it would be a person in buckskin on a horse with long hair, with some beads on and like a choker or whatever, you know, like that would be the classic vision of what Native people are.

And Reservation Dogs acknowledges that. And there's this character who's played by Dallas Goldtooth, who was one of the founding members of the comedy group. Yeah. Yeah. And so, you know, it's like, we have to acknowledge this because it's going to be like the elephant in the room that doesn't get acknowledged if we just try to go through and like,

oh, we don't think about any of that stuff. When in reality, we do. And so it was like, all right, here is this guy and this is what you think we look like. And we just did a setup of this whole show to this point where you're seeing like kids stealing a chip truck, the Stooges are playing, I want to be your dog. Like it's kind of punk rock.

And then all of a sudden this character drops in yes sort of a spirit guide and like and he talks in his like poetic thing you know i'm like but i think that like you're saying you know are set up a native like there is no it's hard to set that up so it was like drop them into this world make them feel like make them drown a little bit. I don't know where they're at. They don't know what the hell's going on. This is very different, but then bring this character in to ground everyone, but also invite them in

to laugh at this stereotype that we all agree is like the sort of image of what has been put upon us. And there's some truth in that image as well, right? Like we did at one point dress like that. And we did ride horses and there's a lot of truths in that stereotype, but like, isn't it ridiculous that you think that that's what we are now to this day? Right. Yeah. And I think that also helped bring in the audience and give them permission to laugh

and kind of be like, oh, I get where we're at now. Yeah. I think that one of the things that I like most about the series, and I'm a big cinephile, so more often than not, I actually like, I'll usually see a TV series and I'll go, I wish they had just made a film of this.

That's like my dirty little secret about a lot of shows. And with your series, I'm like, I'm so glad they made this a series. You know, because it merits, you know, going down the rabbit hole of each of these characters. I mean, I felt that way about a series I was on as an actor, Orange is the New Black, where I was like, oh, Jenji did this really smart thing where she presented this world. And then she's decided, okay, I'm going to go down the rabbit hole of Crazy Eyes.

I'm going to go down the rabbit hole of, you know, the warden character, et cetera. And we're going to understand in sort of a holistic sense, like what, what the human experience is through that. And I feel like that's what I like most about your show is that every episode, I feel like I'm understanding these characters in a completely different way. And I'm, you know, the most exciting thing for me is I'm seeing myself in it, which I think is the goal of sort of all great storytelling is that you see some part of yourself in the story. Exactly. And, you know, I think that, you know, when I watched the British office the first of that humor and the accents and know kind of some of the slang. But once I was in, I was so in. Like I was like, I mean, I watched that shit like twice a year, you know, the whole thing.

Wow. And like, I was just so invested. And I think that part of that, and Origin is the New Black is an example of that. And, you know, in this show, we have to create this. It's not just the world of the show. It's also like redefining Native experience and kind of showing the reality of that and what it's like in a community,

which nothing has done really. There's a new show that came out called Rutherford Falls that does that well, but nothing before that has done that. And I was like, because we had to feed into the lie a little bit, I think, because no one wanted to see a show about kids hanging out, stealing and shit. Like, what are you talking about? There's no context for all that stuff. And so building that world out, like it's so much bigger too. I mean, we started so narrow and it's like, I feel like we have to slowly kind of build that. But like one of the things that I think, you know, speaking of the office is like, I didn't want to explain or handhold anyone coming into this world. Like, I just want to drop you in and hopefully you come on

board and get invested enough. But like, once you're in this world that you don't recognize, then you connect with the human aspects of these characters. Everyone knows what it's like to want to leave. Everyone knows what it's like to lose somebody. But I think that if you are trusting of an audience, I think that if you respect an audience enough to just come on board and let them lean in and do some of the work, I think they invest even deeper into a story. Just like the English office with me, I invested so much in that because they didn't hold my hand.

They just like threw me into this world that I had no idea what it was and I had to figure it out. And once you get them in there, you have stories of love, you have stories of loss, you have all these things that kind of hold people there and kind of keep them coming back,

which is the hope. And I say all this like totally out of my ass because I've never made a show before. You know what I mean? It's just like, we're just trying to figure it out. And this is what I think is happening. I don't know, you know? My wife, Jen, and I watched all your features, your documentary, all the episodes of Reservation Dogs. And I think what was startling to us was that you made your first feature, I want to say it came out in 2007? Yeah, I made it in 2006 or something, I think.

Yeah, and it's phenomenally good. Thank you. And it's also funny. I mean, you're saying it's so dramatic, but it is dramatic. It starts with a suicide and works from there. But there's so much humor in it. And to me, it's astonishing when I watch it,

I go, how did Sterling not get approached to make a series in 2007 or 2006, you know, with this level of talent? And I think that there's a there's sort of a sad part about that. And there's sort of a positive part of that. The sad part is how come that didn't happen? about that and there's sort of a positive part of that the sad part is how come that didn't happen the positive part is it actually seems like at least uh in fits and spurts uh people are starting to take representation in film and tv more seriously now yeah in 2021 than they were in 2007 oh man like it was totally different world i mean I said, when I first went out to LA, I mean, I literally thought I was going to

be the toast of the town because I came out to labs and it was like, ah, Tarantino and all this stuff. I was like, ah, doors are going to be flying open. Did you have Tarantino at your lab, Sundance Lab? No, no, no. He wasn't there, but he had been there. It was like, those were the people that came out of there.

Just so people know, Reservoir Dogs was developed I think in the Sundays yeah yeah yeah exactly in the 90s I was there with like Miranda July folks like that oh my gosh brilliant yeah yeah exactly and so um you know I thought like I'm gonna be making a feature like this is gonna be great um no one really wanted to make it because it was all about like name actors back then you know yeah there was no streaming like there was no you know yeah and so i sort of you know tucked tail and went back to oklahoma going like they don't want to make this shit like um the talk of representation and diversity was not there. You know, like that was not a thing then. But I always knew like, all I have to do is go home,

keep making these films, and eventually the industry will turn around, right? Like it will change. And it was a gamble. And I was going from project to project and directing whatever I could in between, short documentaries, whatever, just to make money. And it did pay off, you know, like the industry did change. And all of a sudden you didn't have

to have name actors in your show or in your film and streaming became easier. And then all of a sudden I was, all of my work became TV after that. Cause feature films still has these rules or whatever, but like I started working in TV and none of that really mattered. And they sort of seem to embrace stories that you hadn't heard before. And, and then I was like, oh, I can do something, you know? And then of course, Taika, being friends with Taika helps a lot, obviously. Um, and you know, and we were, we've been friends for a long time and I watched him sort of explode into the star that he is, you know, which is strange to watch as a friend, you know? Sure. I've witnessed that a few times. Yeah, exactly. And this show wouldn't have happened without him. So, you know, hats off to Taika.

Yeah. It's interesting because in terms of representation, like I feel like culturally people are just coming around to this idea of what you see on the screen not only is empowering for young Native kids seeing themselves reflected back on the screen. Obviously, that's infinitely powerful. But it's also just powerful for people like me, people knowing and understanding more about Native communities in Oklahoma. Right. And going, I should know more about this. Like I, from your show, I ended up reading, you know, the indigenous history of the United States.

Right. This week. And for me, it was so eye-opening in terms of when I, here's how I describe, I grew up in Shrewsbury, Massachusetts, and we did

U.S. History in seventh grade. Right. And I remember, you know, all the stuff about Manifest Destiny and all these things,

you know, Andrew Jackson, and... He was a nice guy. All of... Is he nice? I've heard... No, he's not.

No, no. No, honestly, if you know him, he's nice. Yeah, yeah. Totally. He's a nice guy. Is he nice? I've heard. No, he's not. No, no. Honestly, if you know him, he's nice. Yeah, yeah, totally. He's a good guy. He's a good guy. My tribe specifically are the ones that he really went after. We were in battle with that guy. Like literally, he was shooting cannons at us and shit before we left to go to Oklahoma.

He's a rough one. He's the great villain of American history. Right. But if you know him, dude, the great villain of American history. Right. But if you know him, dude, dude, if you know him, such a good guy. Yeah, just a nice fella. He's a great sense of humor. Loves tea. Loves tea.

Loves tea. God. No, but I feel like in seventh grade, I learned U.S. history, No, but I feel like in seventh grade, I learned U.S. history, and I even then had this distinct sense of like, this doesn't add up. Yeah, totally. And it's like one chapter, half a chapter maybe. For sure. Yeah, yeah.

For sure. And actually, I found it disenchanting about studying history in general. Right. And it's only like, you know, in my 30s and 40s, becoming a professional storyteller going like, oh, I'm actually really interested in history now. Right. Because I'm looking through the lens of like, oh, here's the indigenous lens of U.S. history.

And then here's the U.S. lens of American history. And I go, oh, okay. Well, now i can sort of decide what what seems to what seems to add up and what does it right i mean like you know it was similar for me i mean even though i'm i'm native uh i remember you know i'd always heard about the trail of tears and all this stuff but like uh you don't really put it into context until i remember i was in college freshman year and I had a professor that was taught, you know, it was a really in-depth history. And his focus primarily was kind of indigenous history, just happened to be that way.

And he's talking about this stuff. And I'm like, all of a sudden someone else is telling me out of the context of me being home. Like all of a sudden someone else is telling me out of the context of me being home. And I'm realizing like everyone I grew up with was affected by these events that he's talking about, you know. And it took me to leave to really realize and look back at my home and go, whoa, like we weren't originally from there. Like we got displaced there, you know. Like that's crazy and like heavy. And then I think about like, I mean, throughout every couple of months, it seems like there's a new story comes out that's like, hey, you know how we thought

the indigenous people didn't know what they were doing? Turns out they were really good at building these mounds and they were good for the earth. And like, you know, like they were actually really good at irrigation and like, it was very sustainable the way that they were living, you know? And like, and I even look at these old, these old sort of illustrations of these like French priests or whatever that came over like the 1500s. And like they're drawing people that my people are descendant of, you know? And it's like, they're totally getting things wrong. Because there's things that they're drawing or capturing, whether it's ceremony or something that still goes on to this day, but it isn't like,

there's not a reality show about it, right? Like it's very, very private, but they're drawing it back in the 1500s and their interpretation of it is totally off. Like to them, it was savagery or it was something like these heathens or whatever. It was unfamiliar to them it was savagery or it was something sure something like you know these heathens or whatever you know but it was unfamiliar to them right so it was right another so they sort of demonized it you know and like but as a person that grew up in that community and knows what it

is it's like oh no i know what they're doing like they're just you know cleansing themselves right now or whatever you know uh really interesting history and who tells it, you know? Yeah. And it's interesting because the comedy, uh, on reservation dogs is so funny and it's so patient. Yeah. I feel like your aesthetic as a director is, is just patience. Yeah. No, I think that that's true. Um, you know, I'm a fan of like 70s cinema. I mean, Hal Ashby. And, you know, it's like being there. And Tyke and I talk a lot about that stuff. You know, like I love, and I think being there is a very patient film, right?

And it's like, you really gotta be, and you really gotta sit that one through to get the jokes, you know? And like to hit the humor. And I think, and Harold Maude's very similar, you know, where it's like- Harold and Maude, sure. Yeah.

So that type of storytelling, I don't know, it's what I gravitate towards, but it's also native. It's also native humor. And I think that sitting around like talking to my, it sounds cheesy, but it's like talking to my elders, which like, just like talking about my aunts and uncles, like in the kitchen. Like, I always love the stories that they told

because they were always so small in what happened, but the way that they told them, there was so much meaning in them and they were so big. And like, I love that. And that's what I want with reservation dogs. It's like, there's not a lot going on. Like if you really put it on paper, you know reservation dogs. There's not a lot going on, if you really put it on paper. But there is a lot going on.

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I listened to the Bill Hader episode recently. Tulsa, my Tulsa buddy, fellow Tulsan. Oh my gosh. I mean, Oklahoma. Yeah, man. First of all, you got a lot of talent out of there. Yeah, there's some good talent that came out of it. You got you, you got Bill Hader, you got Chuck Norris. That's right, Chuck Norris. Is he from there? You got the Flaming Lips. Brad Pitt, Flaming Lips, Garth Brooks.

There's a lot. Reba McIntyre. We should just start running out of names. Well, there's a lot. And then also, it's like, what the hell's going on in Oklahoma where a lot of the stuff that you document and your documentary took place with natives and then the Tulsa massacre.

Exactly. Horrific. There's such a loaded history in the state. Yeah, it's like, well, it was a place that was a bit lawless for a while and I think it attracted like people that were trying to take advantage of black folks and also native people. And I mean, if you look at like the, you know,

Killers of the Flower Moon right now, that's the Scorsese film, that's about the Osage oil murders. That was happening at a time when also the race massacre was happening, you know? So it was like all of these things. And, you know, there were similar things happening down where I'm from, which is south of there and south of Tulsa. There were things like that happening all over Oklahoma

because it was a very new state and it was Indian territory. And there were things that you could take advantage of. And, you. And specifically from the native perspective, I mean, I had a white grandma, white aunt that you see in the documentary. But my aunt was a notary. She could notarize things and she was the only one in town that could. And there would be real estate men

banging on her door at like three in the morning. She told me this at three in the morning. She was born in like 1911. She had, they would bang on her door at three in the morning and they had took a native, local native man out and went on a bender and got him way more drunk and came there to buy his land.

And she had grown up with the native man, right? But they were known to kill people. And so she would have to notarize it, you know, and sell it for way cheap. And there were stories like that, you know, from home that were like, you know, lots of like people murdered or like land deeds signed over with just an X. So like, you don't know who signed it or whatever, you know,

like the records back home are really crazy. Like the land records, a lot of corruption going on, but it was because it was such a young state. And I think that also led to creative people as well. You know, like Woody Guthrie came out of Oklahoma, you know, and even like Wanda Jackson, you know. And I think that there was a lot of cultural diversity and things that led to some good art.

One of the really moving parts of your documentary is when the gentleman who served in the Vietnam War. Right, would go long. Yeah, he talks about forgiveness and forgiving himself for things you know, he's forgiving the country for, you know, arguably unforgivable acts against his people. Right. Yeah. I mean, I think that, I think that there has to be a way moving forward, right? And I think that if you don't have, I mean, I think that's what we're all

sort of pushing towards, right? It's like some sort of forgiveness and some sort of like redemption and some sort of like, I mean, we all come from, most of us come from people that were oppressed or in one way or another kicked around. And, you know, that's just sort of human existence as we butt up against each other.

And, you know, and I think that, you know, I think that through forgiveness and things like that, you have to learn, you know, you learn how to be better human beings and that's all we can do, you know? And I think that, you know, for me, I've learned more and more. And I, you know, I think that comedy, honestly, the more I've moved through any types of work that I've done, I think that comedy is the most sort of the pulse of what's happening in society better than anyone, you know?

And I think that part of that is being able to look at the situation and really look at it from every angle and make a joke out of it. I think that that makes you a smarter human being, honestly, to be able to look at something from all sides, you know? And I think that when we approach humor or jokes or whatever, you know, or just life situations, just like what he was saying about forgiveness, you know, it's like at a certain point, you look at these situations and you have to find forgiveness or else you'll drive yourself crazy.

And it doesn't forgive anything that anyone's ever done, but you have to be able to sort of move forward, I think, with yourself and also with your people. And I don't know, I have children and it's like, what do I wanna leave them? Like, I wanna leave them a world where people understand better the people that they come from, right? Like I want

them to be able to go into a place where it's like all white people. And when they find out they're Native American, they feel like they have an understanding of my kids because of something like reservation dogs. I went to a store in Nebraska one time and it was on the edge of a reservation. It was in a border town. It was all white town. And I walked into that store and it was like a record scratch. Everyone turned and looked at me.

And I never felt that because in Oklahoma, our communities are very mixed. And it's not as like separate. There's not closed borders. And I remember feeling that and just going like, man, like I don't ever want my kids to feel that, right? Like I would never want my kids to feel that. And I think that work like Reservation Dogs and other work that's coming out will only help that.

So this is called the slow run. It's just like a series of sort of questions about your memories and things like that. Do you have a smell memory from childhood, either really good or really bad? Yes. I have, you know, I think of, I used to go to my grandma's house. We used to go out and we'd run around the dirt road. And the neighbor farmer, we just thought it was her land, but it was probably his land. The neighbor farmer's cows would shit everywhere.

And we had this thing where we would pick, we would see who could throw a dried up shit the farthest. It was like, I think they call it like, I forget what they call it, a cow patty toss is what they call it. And my uncle would make us do it. And the smell of cow shit and the beautiful sort of prairie and like all of those mixed together for some reason is like childhood to me

you know it's like a summer a summer breeze like everything in bloom and then cow shit just to cut through it all you know like yeah it's like it's like, that's home. Yeah. That's amazing when terrible smells become beautifully nostalgic. Yeah. Yeah. Do you have a memory of like a, like a particularly strange neighbor, someone you grew up nearby or a family friend who was odd? There was a man that lived across the street from my aunt and I was at her house a lot. And his name was Old Man Mead. That's what they called him, Old Man Mead. And he would come over and he chain smoked and he had really long fingernails. He's an old white man. Really long fingernails and cigarette stains on his fingers. And he would

come over and he smelled like cigarettes. He just smelled fingers. And he would come over and he smelled like cigarettes, you know, like he just smelled like cigarettes. He would come over and not say anything. Like he would just sit there and I'd be in the front room and he would sit there and look out the door while my aunt and them sat around watching like, you know, country music channel or something. And every now and then my aunt would ask a question like, weather's crazy, huh? And he'd go, yep. Like that's it. Like that's it. And he just did that for like a couple hours once a week. Yep. That's so funny. Jim Gaffigan was saying something similar, which is that his nostalgic smell is cigarette smoke because you don't smell it anymore out in the wild.

Right. You don't. Yeah. You don't smell it anymore. No, you either smoke or you don't smoke. But if you don't smoke, it ain't around. Right. No, it definitely reminds me of childhood.

Yeah. No, totally. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. Sam, do you have a memory on a loop from childhood where it's not a story, but it's just something that hits you sometimes? Yeah. I mean, I remember walking. I used to always walk everywhere I went. I kind of thought I was like, stand by me, like I was a kid. And I used to walk everywhere. And there was this one alley that is in downtown

Holdenville, the town that I'm from. And I used to walk in that alley and pretend that I was in New York City from the movies that I'd seen or something. And just waiting on a fight to break out, some drama to happen. Nothing ever happened, because they were all abandoned buildings. But it felt like I was in the city and I always used to take that route when I would walk around. Do you remember being, when you were younger, just like an inauthentic version of yourself,

like in middle school or high school where you're just sort of finding yourself and it's not who you end up being? For sure. I mean, like, I remember one time, Corey Haim. I used to love the movie the lost boys and my mom was like oh you you like his hair because i was talking about how cool his hair was i was like but my hair's straight it could never do that you know and i remember just like

um get my mom was a hairdresser and she gave me say let's just put a wave in your hair and like she literally like put a wave in my hair like like a bit of a perm and it was totally ridiculous. And it was just because I was a fan of the Lost Boys. Oh my gosh. I love that. Yeah. What's the best piece of advice that you've been given that you used? I used to this day from my art teacher from high school. He said, from my art teacher from high school. He said, whatever you do, don't have a fallback plan because you'll fall back. And I use that because I just never, I always moved forward.

I never, and I never had a plan as a backup. And I just knew that I was going to do this and I just never stopped and it really paid off. Yeah, I think that's a really good piece of advice. You know, I was listening to you in another interview talk about how in college you made a short film and it was sort of like so messy that you were like, oh, I don't really want to show that.

Oh yeah, it was a feature film and it was awful. It was really bad. I even like had to play a character myself and I wore a fake beard that I thought looked good i looked back i looked back there was one part where uh there was a character the main character the main character was hitchhiking and yeah he got in the car in his truck and i was like how do we because we don't the truck was too small for our gear or anyone to fit in there so i was like how do we do we do this? And my camera guy was like, oh, you just gotta shake the car

and have the camera locked onto the front and it'll look like they're driving. I didn't even think about like shadows and light. So literally we shoot this whole talking scene where we're just shaking the car. And then I look at the footage and I die laughing later because the camera was too wide and you could see the dirt road around it just not moving. No shadows going. It was ridiculous.

Oh my gosh. It was awful. Oh, that's so funny. I have a similar thing. When I was in college, it's funny. He went on to be a successful film producer, a guy in my screenwriting class, Jordan Goldberg. He said to me in class, he goes like, you know, you should just shoot one of these scripts you're writing. You should go out and shoot it on a DV camera, which is what you shot yours on. We're almost exactly the same age. So the technology was in that same place, which is like these little mini DV cassettes, tapes, was in that same place, which is like these little mini DV cassettes,

tapes, and like rentable equipment where you could rent, like for a weekend package, you could maybe get away with like $1,000 for 1,200 bucks for a weekend package. Right. And it was, this is a short I did called Waiting to Be Great, and it was about these kids being scammed

by like a modeling scam at like the mall. Yeah. And all this stuff, and it was a debacle being scammed by a modeling scam at the mall and all this stuff, and it was a debacle. And we filmed guerrilla style in the mall in Virginia, totally illegally. We were stealing footage like crazy. We got in the edit, and it was so bad that the editor, who was a professional editor in New York, who we had convinced to edit this,

didn't call us back. Oh, no. And he kept the footage. Oh, no. He's just like, I'm not letting this out. Yeah, he just kept it. He didn't call us back. And then my sister, Gina,

literally knocked on his door and was like, give my brother back his footage. And then he sent it back in the mail, and we edited some version of it together. But there's something about it that was so embarrassing. Yeah. Because the first time, people should know when they listen to this, it's like, you know, Sterling has made all these films and the TV series, and I've made a bunch of films and shows.

and the TV series, and I've made a bunch of films and shows, your first stab at things is not going to go as well as you imagine in your head. Oh, man, it's awful. Because you have these ideas of what you want it to be. And I really thought, I was watching this epic cinema, and I was trying to do that on a TV cam. Yeah, of course. Every cliche you could think of was thrown at the wall. And I mean, the first time I ever got hired to do anything, I was hired to film a wedding. It was the first time I ever got paid.

I got paid $150 to film a wedding. I filmed the whole wedding and the reception and also the photos that were taken. And then I had submitted this script to the Sundance Labs. I needed a scene to show them of something that I shot and directed to send to them to try to get in the labs. I quickly went and shot this scene with my friends outside on the porch. It was an awful, pretentious college short. And get home, realized that I taped over the whole wedding.

And I'd already got paid for the wedding. No way. And so I start recording over the tape when it comes to, the father brings her out. Yeah, the father brings her out. I was like, duh. It's like the music starts. It starts recording.

It comes back onto the wedding when they say, I now pronounce you man and wife. No, no. I'd recorded over the whole day. And I was so embarrassed. I hadn't edited. I hadn't ingested the footage. This kills me.

So I sent it back to them with a check for $150. And I said, I hadn't edited. I hadn't ingested the footage. This kills me. So I sent it back to them with a check for $150 and I said, I'm really sorry. And I made a video, a DVD of just a montage of them dancing and hugging and taking photos with like music over it. It was awful. It was awful.

So bad. Oh, the montage. Hopefully they like Reservation Dogs. Hopefully they're watching the show now but it's interesting because it's like you and i have that similar origin story where we just went off of the camera and shot some stuff and it was a debacle right it's like what would you what advice would you give for for students like studying film in high school college right now i mean that's honestly the advice i would give them is go make stuff. Just make it. Yeah, because you got to get those bad ones out and you got to get those bad scripts out. And your first scripts are going to be bad. I look back at my first scripts and it's like,

they're so pretentious. I mean, like, you know, just graduated high school, like one kid's reading Bound for Glory and they want to go, him and his cousin want to hitchhike and go see the home of Woody Guthrie, which is literally 30 minutes away from where they live. It's like, to me, I was making the great American story, you know, and it was like,

and I look back at it now and I cringe. And I literally named it, you know, you know the movie, Ordinary People, the Redford. I named mine Ordinary Folks. So you have to get the bad ones out. I think you got to go through those. Ordinary Folks.

Yeah. Ordinary Folks. Man. Oh, that's amazing. Yeah. I thought that was going to be a hit. I thought that was going to be a hit. Do you, this is one that Anne Lamott has this great book about writing called Bird by Bird.

And she asks people to describe a school lunch that they remember eating when they were a kid. Do you remember one? Yeah. I mean, Salisbury steak was always the one that we were like oh that's the jam we went through this period I think at my school where we would always bring our lunch but then it got really hip for us to eat the cafeteria all the cool kids

started going nah man we're going to eat that cafeteria lunch and so we started eating the cafeteria lunch and I remember it first started with Salisbury steak day. We would go back to Salisbury steak, which like now, like I think of that and it's like, that was the worst piece of meat. I mean, it couldn't, it couldn't have been meat, you know? And it's like, uh, no telling what that was made out of, but I remember the Salisbury steak. Oh my gosh. The thing that the reservation's recurring thing that always kind of grosses me out, but maybe it's awesome, is like the backstrap from the deer.

Oh yeah, it's the best. Is it good? It's really good. Yeah, it's like where the, it's where the like tenderloin, like the steaks come from, you know, like you can, it's the best part. The kids talk about it, you know, like it's pizza or something. Well, like, you know, I think in places in America and the cultures where there's a lot of hunting, it's kind of a joke because everyone, the first thing you always mention is backstrap. Oh, really? Because they don't know exactly how to cook the other parts. It's the easy part to cook.

Oh, my gosh. And you hear these people, they're like, yeah, all I take is the backstrap. You know, and it's like, that's because they don't know anything else. That's really funny. This is revealing so much about me to all of my hunting. All your hunting crowds, yeah. Yeah, yeah. So when you were hunting, you were hunting growing up? Yeah. What was your biggest hunting mistake?

I think always the biggest mistake is no patience. And you're just sitting there for like an hour and like you're hungry. You're like, oh, let's get out of here. Like there's nothing gonna show up. And then all of a sudden a deer shows up and you scare it away. Like that was always the biggest mistake.

It's like, you just have no patience and you just wanna get out of there. Do you think you learned patience from hunting in your filmmaking? Yeah, I mean, like you, I think like, you know, my dad always said like hunting isn't about killing the animal. It's about being in the woods by yourself. And, and the, the, the animals and the meat is the bonus, but like, that's not what it's about. And it really is. I think it's a very cathartic sort of meditative experience where you sit in the woods and you think about yourself and your issues and your day and what's coming and all of that. And I think, you know, it can be,

it can be full of anxiety while you're sitting out there, you know, because you're really processing all this stuff. And usually by the end of that, though, you feel better. You know, and I think that there's something cathartic about it. Sipping away from my conversation with Sterling Harjo, just wanted to send a shout out to our friends who make the best pizza in Chicago, Lou Malnati's. The iconic Lou Malnati's teams up to bring you Tastes of Chicago, shipping Chicago's best deep dish pizza nationwide with everyday free shipping.

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Use promo code burbiggs at checkout. Again, that's magicspoon.com slash burbiggs. And use the code burbiggs to save $5 off. And now, back to the show. So I work out material. To be clear, this part of the show is just working out material for my next show. And if it reminds you of anything, we can tell a story. If you have a tag for it, if you want to riff on it, great. If not, we can move to the next one.

This is, I know I'm getting older because when I get on the exercise machine, it asks me how old I am and I always have to press up. Yeah, that's great. And it asks how long I want to exercise and I always press down. And it asks me my weight and I start to cry. Yes, yes. I mean, it's always tough getting on that machine

and really just kind of, you know, it makes you, it's like there's too much self-evaluation going on in that moment. I know. It's like, I don't want to think about all this stuff. There's a lot. Like, I'm here to fix this, you know? Yeah. I'm here to be younger and live longer. I'm also here to lose weight. Yeah.

I'm also here to, you I'm also here to you know and I also don't want to kill myself there is a middle ground it should just say like small, medium, large there should just be three choices do you fit in this category, this category right

we don't have to get all deep into the metrics yeah, come on it's too much nuance you don't need to get all deep into the metrics. Yeah, come on. It's too much nuance, too much nuance. You don't need to stuff me in your algorithm. Let's just do a little jog. Right. And we don't have to talk about it too much.

The life insurance companies are probably taking note and all of that. Oh, yeah, exactly. This is the, I feel like middle age is tough to swallow. Yeah, I know you're 41, I'm 43. Yeah. But it's kind of like my life is a football game and this is halftime. But you don't get to take a break at halftime.

They just add players to the game. Like I've got a kid. And then the second half, you're thinking, this might go to sudden death. Yeah, isn't that the worst? Yeah, yeah. It's like, it doesn't feel like that was thought out. It's like, God didn't think that one out too much. Couldn't it be easier as we go?

It's easy when you're taken care of by your parents, right? You're like, oh, you get everything done for you. And then there comes a certain point where it's like, oh, I have to deal with all of this and there's no one here to help me. It's rough. Oh, completely. That's why you shouldn't do drugs when you're young. You should save it for when you're older. Oh, yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I fucked that up. Just save your body. Yeah. Oh, gosh. Yeah, exactly. So I went to a nutritionist because my weight has fluctuated in the last couple of years. But I went to a nutritionist and turns out they know the same stuff as us. It's like, what's the training on that job three days? Yeah, exactly. I mean,

it's like an annoying friend who charges you. Yeah, exactly. But then she goes, you know, because I have a lot of pre-existing conditions, which I call conditions, because everything is existing if it exists. And everything's pre, unless it happened just now. Right. And so I had a lot of pre-existing conditions. So I'm telling her I had cancer when I was 20. Right. You know, I had a bladder tumor and I was

diagnosed with type 2 diabetes. No, I've had a lot of stuff. And then my nutritionist says, how's your sleep? And I said, well, the short version is that I jumped through a second story window sleepwalking and I almost died. And the long version is it's fine um i just sort of have a bad case of jumping out the windows um but obviously i made a i made a movie about this the first time i heard you was it was this american life that you were telling that story yeah and um it was before the movie and i'd listened to that and it horrified me. I mean, because I had a couple sleepwalking incidents when I was young. And one of the worst ones was when I was staying the night with a friend and we were all kind of crashed out on sleeping bags on the floor.

And I wake up to my face planting in the coffee table. Oh my gosh, no. I was like sleepwalking and I tripped over a body of someone and the mom heard it and heard me crying. And she came out and I remember she gave me some juice and I just had this like giant bruise on my chin like that, you know, but then like, and then it sort of stopped after that. But then hearing your story, I mean, it was one of the more memorable things that I've heard about that or on This American Life. I mean, like it terrified me. And it doesn't happen anymore? Is it?

Well, it's funny because that's actually, in my new show, I talk about all these pre-existing conditions and how when you hit middle age, you know, natural causes starts to become more real and seeable, you know, and so I would be remiss if I didn't mention the sleep walking, but I don't want to lean on it because I have a whole show about it. You know, people saw that.

It's this balancing act of like what have people seen already and what have people you know, you have saw that, it's this balancing act of like, what have people seen already? And what have people, you know, you have to tell them something if they've never seen you before. So I say, and this is the new thing I'm working on, I go, in 2005, I was diagnosed with REM sleep behavior disorder, which means that because of a dopamine deficiency and a combination of anxiety and sleep deprivation, I sometimes act out my dreams. And the most extreme example was that, like I said, I once jumped through a second-story window at a La Quinta Inn. So now, before bed, I turn off the TV an hour before bed.

I take strong medication. I sleep in a sleeping bag. Some of these tactics are logical. Some of them seem silly. But the reason some of it seems silly is that even doctors don't know about the disorder. It was discovered in 1986. So we don't know much about it. More significantly, to answer your question,

there's no cure. A friend of mine said to me recently, yeah, you have that sleepwalking, but it's cured, right? And I go, no, there is no cure. And he goes, yeah, but you have it under control. And I say, I'm doing my best, but, you know, I have one or two episodes a year. Wow. But there's no cure. I mean, there, but then I started thinking about it. There aren't that many cures for anything, really. I mean, the obvious ones are like chickenpox, measles, polio,

but most diseases, thousands of them, are at best manageable. But in a certain sense, we're all in the same boat because death has no cure and life is manageable. And so I got the sleepwalking thing, but we all have death. That's true. That is so true. That's great. So the thing that we end on is uh working it out for a cause and it's basically if you choose a non-profit i'm going to donate to them and then i'm going to link them in the show notes and encourage the listeners to do that as well right so uh my friends uh chelsea luger and thosh collins

have a um have a non- nonprofit called welfare culture and it is welfareculture.com. Uh, there's a lot of health issues with, uh, native youth and in our communities and adults as well. And type two diabetes is, is big and their, uh, nonprofit welfare culture is a holistic approach to health sort of mind, body, spirit, movement, and food, and things like that. And, you know, they travel around to reservations and give seminars, whether it's through movement or exercise or cooking and all of this. And it's really just trying to sort of going back to an indigenous teachings of food and wellness and encouraging native people to better themselves through that. That's amazing. Well, I'm going to contribute to them. We're going to link to them in the show. I think that's a phenomenal cause. And it's something that you tip your hat to in the show

because there's an event for fighting type 2 diabetes. And then the person they book is a rapper who has a song about fried bread. Right, right. It's like the viral song is about the worst food that you should not be eating if you have diabetes. Yeah, exactly. Well, yeah, it's an honor talking to you. And this has been a blast.

Congratulations. I can't wait to see what you do next. Thank you. I want to see your next films, the next next seasons of reservation dogs I'm thrilled I'm on board for every all of it thanks a lot man working it out because it's not done we're working it out because there's no that's going to do it for another episode of Working It Out. That was Sterling Harjo. You've got to watch that series. It is called Reservation Dogs.

I found it on Hulu. You can find it on FX. And I just can't wait to see what he makes next. Just such a fascinating artist. Thanks again for listening. Our producers are myself, along with Peter Salamone and Joseph Berbiglia, consulting producer Seth Barish, sound mix by Kate Balinski,

sound recordist Parker Lyons, associate producer Mabel Lewis. Thanks to my consigliere, Mike Berkowitz, as well as Barissa Hurwitz and Josh Uppfall. Special thanks to Jack Antonoff and Bleachers for their music. They have a new album, and now they are on tour. Go see them.

They put on an incredible show. As always, a very special thanks to my wife, the poet J. Hope Stein. Our book, which is called The New One, is in your local bookstore, hopefully in the window. As always, a special thanks to my daughter, Una, who created a radio fort of pillows. Thanks most of all to you who have listened. Tell your friends.

Even tell your enemies. Put your differences aside. We're working it out. See you next time, everybody.