Mike Birbiglia's Working It Out - 57. Stephen Colbert: Laughter As An Act Of Love

Episode Date: October 18, 2021

Fresh off his Emmy win (with stage companion Conan O’Brien) Stephen Colbert joins Mike for a discussion of comedy, anxiety, and why he’ll never run for Senate. He explains that the reason he loves improv is that there’s nothing like failing with someone else and laughing about it with your scene partner, and he explains why Bill O’Reilly was never his scene partner. https://somosamigos.org/

One, two, one, two. Yeah, I can see the little bars going. All right, bars. As I record it. Let me know when you're good to go, Stephen. So darn close. I'm just going to. I'm going to mute my phone.

I'm going to say, tell my wife I'm doing a podcast. Starting a podcast. I'm in. Hey, everybody. I'm in. We've just recently announced new shows in Berkeley, California, as well as Los Angeles. There's more on the way. Our guest today needs no introduction. You might have seen The Late Show with Stephen Colbert. You might have seen The Colbert Report.

Stephen is a fascinating person because he has this deep improv background, which, of course, I'm so fascinated by, at Second City in Chicago. He worked for many years collaborating with Paul Dinello and Amy Sedaris on Exit 57, as well as Strangers with Candy. He references Paul and Amy. That's who he's referencing. Most recently, he was awarded an Emmy for Outstanding Variety Special live for The Late Show's special Stephen Colbert's Election Night 2020. And Conan O'Brien stormed on stage to receive it with him for no reason. And that is where the conversation begins today. Congratulations to you and Conan O'Brien on your Emmy win. Thank you. It's a long time coming.

He's been very patient. How did you feel on stage when conan entered the stage and you realized he was on the stage with you i think he got on stage before i did actually so it felt it felt good it felt right yeah conan's conan's the first guy I ever tried to work with in late night. I'm no kidding. Yeah. He was just starting his show and I was at Second City. And Robert Smigel, who was his first exec, really liked me. He had seen me at Second City and he said, Conan, I want you to meet him. It didn't go well.

It wasn't a disaster. It was just that I don't think I said or did anything that Conan found funny at all. Yeah, yeah. And I pitched. I sat in like three packets. Wow. Yeah, and nothing. No kidding.

Absolutely nothing. And it's incredibly gratifying to be friends now. Yeah, sure. There's no more late night wars, right? It's like, in the 90s, it's like, there's all these wars, everyone hated each other, and now you guys all seem to enjoy each other's company. Yeah, and it's not even like wars. It was just late night hard feelings. Anyway, Conan was the king of that night.

All any of us, they clumped all the late night people together. It was us and SNL and Conan's people and Oliver's people. And all we did was laugh at Conan all night. Oh, that's funny. It was wonderful. Yeah, I was in a gathering, a social gathering with Conan and a bunch of comedians once. And he broke everybody at the dinner. I mean, he is just so, he's so off the wall.

Yeah, yeah. He's like pound for pound just sitting around. He and Dana Carvey are the two funniest people. Oh, no kidding. Oh, Dana is devastatingly funny to hang out with. Oh, yeah. No, everything I've seen of him, he kills me. Yeah, but Conan is just about every minute.

I mean, he's the sort of person that you go to dinner with him, and it's not like he's hogging the conversation you just don't want him to stop you just don't want him to stop talking you're i'm perfectly happy just to be quiet i'm gonna tell him that you said that he hogs the conversation i'm gonna relay that over text and then i'll just sort of see where it goes from there are you friends are you friends with conan i'm friendly with conan he came on this podcast. It's funny because Ira Glass, who's a friend and collaborator, I asked him for notes on this podcast. I go, do you have any thoughts?

He goes, when you had Conan on, you were very intimidated. And I go, I know. Because when I look up to people, I sound intimidated. What am I supposed to do? And I feel the same way about you. And then I actually was thinking, should I ask you, are you ever intimidated by your guests on your show? I mean, I'm sure.

It's mostly musicians. Oh, really? Because if it's a comedian, I just want to have fun with them. Right. You know, it's such a vacation for me. And even if it's somebody who comes on old style, which means they've got material, and you're setting them up for an answer, and you've been given a warning as to when that bit starts to wind down. Like perk up a little bit

when they start mentioning how their mother makes cutting boards now in her wood shop or whatever. Like that's when like you gotta be ready to go on to the next beat. And which is not my favorite because that's not an interview. That's not a conversation,

but I'm very grateful for it because again, it's like I lay back. I don't have to do any work. I don't have to keep the balls in the air. Yeah. Like you might have to, say, a sports figure. But what I mostly like is somebody who will just riff, just somebody you can just jump in and have fun with. Tig is really fun that way.

Oh, yeah, Tig Notaro is wonderful. She has material, but it's not important that she get to it. Yes. You're mostly just fucking around. And the audience is not, it's not a hostile relationship to the audience, but it's somewhat immaterial that they're there.

You're hanging out and riffing the way you might just in a writer's room, which I adore. But imitated, I mean, not imitated, what do you call it? Intimidated. Intimated. Intimidated kind of musicians intimidate me. No kidding.

Because I don't get starstruck at actors because while I'm not really an actor anymore, I kind of get what they do. Yeah. I get the idea. And politicians, not really. There are very few that I really admire. Yeah. And that can be mild.

Like, talking to a president can be an intimidating thing. But, and comedians, again, I just want to play. But musicians, it's like magic. Yeah. How do they do what they do? Yeah, how are they doing this? I mean, I can play like ADG. I can play Froggy Wanda Corton for my kids on the guitar.

But how does, well, how does John Baptista, how does a real musician, that's real magic. They reach right into your chest and they do something to your heart. And they change the chemistry of your brain from a distance. And they do something to your heart. And they change the chemistry of your brain from a distance. And for whatever reason, I think it's that mystery that truly intimidates me about musicians. If I truly love them. It's funny you say magic because you produced Derek DelGaudio and Frank Oz's show In and Of Itself, which has components of magic in it.

And Derek's a friend and Frank's a friend of mine as well. I love those guys. I love that show. I mean, what drew you? Because you don't present or produce a lot of other people's shows. What drew you to that show in particular? Well, one of my producers, two of my producers, but the first one was a guy named Barry Julian.

I don't know if you know Barry at all, but Barry is one of my co-execs and he used to be my head writer. And he started off as a magician. Oh, interesting. And he knows my feeling about magic is not hostile, but it's somewhat indifferent. I don't seek it. Sure.

Same, by the way, same. I don't avoid it. Yeah. But I don't avoid it. Yeah. I'm like, oh, that must have taken a lot of time to figure out how to do that. That's my response to magic. It's like, wow, that was a lot of lonely nights. Yeah, sure. And in some way, I kind of feel that way about musicians. Like, wow, that was a lot of your teenage years on your bed learning to do arpeggios.

And I feel the same way about magicians. Like, I really admire the amount of skill and the dedication and the control and the timing and all those things. I think Steve Martin in Born Standing Up, which is right up there on the shelf, actually. Born Standing Up talks about the relationship, the timing of magic and comedy, how there's a relationship there. But anyway, so he said, go. It's not a magic show. He's a great magician. He's truly like a magician's magician.

He can figure out things nobody else can figure out. People come to him. He figured out a kind of shuffle that no one – there's been six shuffles for 300 years. Now there's a seventh one. And he came up like he's the kind of guy who's an innovator. He's not just a master. And so I went to go see it not knowing what in the world to expect. Except at the moment I walked in the room, the lobby, and there were those choices to make about how you identify yourself.

There's a pegboard on the wall with thousands of choices of, I am a joker. An optimist. I am a dreamer. Exactly. I am an idiot, which was my choice. I am an idiot. Wow.

And I sincerely chose that. Oh. And I knew from the moment I got there, oh, this is a sincere invitation to be part of the show in a way that I'm not entirely clear on yet. Wow. But I could feel the invitation. I immediately liked the open door quality of that and the mystery, the instant mystery,

which was a theatrical mystery, not a magical mystery. And then the show is just both technically dazzling as a magic show and emotionally adventurous, what he's willing to talk about. Yeah. And that I love that the show, the real magic took place inside the mind and the heart of the person watching it. Yeah. Which I suppose like a great illusionist would say, well, that's where it's always happening. Yes. But it actually had to do with an act of love.

I think it's very hard to do a show that gives a gift of loving the audience or allowing the audience to see their own beauty in the work. And that's what it was about. It's about love and perceiving your own beauty and yourself by perceiving it in others and seeing yourself as having a common humanity. And I didn't want the show to be over.

And when it was over in such a satisfying way, I didn't want to applaud. I didn't want anyone else to applaud. I just wanted the silence to continue because I felt like all around my body there was this envelope. One molecule of air thick all around my body that was perfectly still.

Yeah. And I didn't want to, when I moved my hands, something precious would be lost. that experience that he's giving to the audience. Is that, in some ways, the experience you're trying to give to the audience through the television on The Late Show? Well, this is going to be a sort of a multi-part and telescopic answer, which I'm going to find as I go along.

Because you're asking me, why do you do your show, is what your question is, right? Why are any of us doing anything? Well, that's why I say, like, it's a tough question to answer. Is that why the thing that you saw him doing on stage, is that why you do your show? Is that what you're up to? Jesus, I don't know why I do my show.

I can tell you what I like about the show. You know, why do I do the show? Somebody offered me the job, in a way. It was not the plan on any level i'd never play i'd never planned to have a talk show wow i would never plan to be i mean i was an actor was the goal yeah the whole point was to be an actor and and i think actor because there it seemed like something you could go learn how to do and then do it you know it seemed like there was a path learn how to do and then do it.

You know, it seemed like there was a path. For all the crazy things that are show business and how all of them are completely rolling the bones with your future. Yeah. It's such a crazy kind of quixotic thing to want to be is in show business. Actor was like, oh, you audition and then you get the part and then you do that. And then that part's overdue. It seemed secretly. I wanted to be a comedian, but what did that mean? Yeah. How does you, how do you become, so you're funny and then someone pays you, but who,

and how, and what are you funny about? And what is the possible path to becoming a comedian? Yeah. And no one ever talks about it. There is no path, by the way. Right. But you can perceive that there might be a path to being an actor. There's acting school.

There isn't like comedian school. No, and there's no auditions for being a comedian. There's auditions for being an actor. Right. There's an industry built up around the people who want to be it, but that doesn't exist as much. I suppose the improv world has a little bit of that because it bridges, you know, acting and stand-up or acting and pure comedy. And so, I mean, I wanted to be an actor, but I really, I mean, I studied acting, but I wanted to be a comedian, but couldn't even say that out loud

until I started improvising. I was in Chicago and I saw real long form, one suggestion, fully improvised one act play kind of improvisations in the mid 80s when the Herald was really sort of taking off in Chicago, the Herald long form improv, and immediately fell in love with it. So, okay, that's not answering your question, but this is why it's long and telescopic. I'm enthralled because these are all of my interests, by the way, because I'm an improviser and a stand-up comedian,

so I'm fascinated by the merge of the two, which is what your talk show is in a way. Yeah, though I don't think of myself as a stand-up because I think you have to earn that title, and I never did. I never didn't do clubs. I didn't go on the road in that way. I've never come up with, like, a tight 10. Like, I just don't have...

I've never had to do the mechanics of that and find my own art within it. Sure. You know, I've never actually... It seemed very lonely to me. It didn't have any interest for me. I like being on stage with other people and kind of working out the material together. Yeah.

And it's like an act of love and friendship with the other person on stage who, if everything, if all else fails, well, I still like you and you still like me. Even if the audience is getting up en masse and walking out. That's one of the best descriptions I've ever heard of why comedic group work is fun, even if it doesn't go well. Right. And sometimes the greatest joy is the failure.

Yeah. What I learned when I started to do improv is that, A, I had a facility for, like, a comedic vulnerable reaction. Mm-hmm. As opposed to, like, a quick mind, which I've been accused of as well. Though I don't think it's actually all that quick. I think I just have, like, a broad reference level so I can pull things up very quickly. But actually like a quick response in a moment, I'm not that kind of a quick comedic response in a moment.

I don't think I'm that great. Okay. And I think that the greatest thing you can be as an improviser is vulnerable. I think that's the greatest thing you can be. a real improvisational comedic moment comes up is my reaction to your want or, or my disappointment, your lack of fulfilling my want on stage. And I loved that. And that dovetailed with what I'd already learned about acting. And so I fell in love with improvisation. And while I did both straight theater and improv comedy for many years in Chicago, I eventually one night just said, fuck it.

I really am only going to do comedy. I remember distinctly thinking, I'm just going to see how far I can ride this road. Yeah. And I have to really dedicate myself to it. And the night I decided that was the night that, do you know Jenna Jolovitz at all? She does a lot of writing. She's a very funny comedic actress

who does a lot of writing in Los Angeles. And Dave Rosowski, I don't know if you've ever spoken to him about improv. He teaches a lot of improv in LA. We were all on stage together in Chicago. And Jenna goes out on stage because we're writing a new show, which means we're throwing in a lot of old material just to keep the pace of the show up while we're coming up

and trying to replace like one Lego at a time the new scenes that we're creating. But in the meantime, we still have to do a proper show. She goes out on stage to do an old blackout. I don't know who did it originally. Maybe like Dan Castellaneta or somebody like that at Second City. She goes out to do an old blackout called Whales. And basically you go out and say, hello, welcome to the mushroom pipe.

You know, your bonsai twig tea will be coming around shortly. In the meantime, I want to do some songs for you. Right now, I'd like to do a song for the whales. And then you make a big show of tuning your guitar for a while. And then right as you're about to hit the strings, you go, Ooh. And you click and you whistle. And it's not a great joke, but it never fails.

Sure. It's a blackout. And then blackout, yeah. It's a minute long and it gives people backstage time to change their outfits. Yes. So she goes out on stage and Dave and I are supposed to be the next scene to go on. We're improvising some scene. I can't remember what it was.

She goes out and she says, the whole setup, she setup she goes i like to do a song for you now and then she she tunes up her guitar and she starts doing her clicks and her whistles like a like a whale and it's getting nothing it's absolutely getting nothing and we're looking at each other thinking what what's wrong she this never it's not great but it never fails yeah and and then she goes oh i forgot to mention it's for whales oh my god and she's just been clicking and whistling for 30 seconds to nothing so funny and dave and i looked at each other threw our arms out and hugged each other like an A-frame little lean-to. And our feet start to slide out away from each other.

And we're still holding on to each other with tears running down our faces, wracked with laughter out loud. And we fall down still holding each other in a lover's embrace with our feet on stage right behind her. And then she starts laughing because she realizes why we're laughing at her. And the audience is still, it's complete silence. And the stage manager slowly brings the lights down. And that is the actual second that I decided I will do this for the rest of my life. If I can, I will do this for the rest of my life

because look at what this moment of failure was like and how filled with joy we are to be with each other in this moment of absolute crashing disaster. It was wonderful. And I thought so much, what a healthy way to live. It is such. And I thought, so much, what a healthy way to live. It is such a healthy way to live.

I think that it's a great metaphor for all things, which is, we're all to some degree with our wives and children and parents. We're all failing to some degree together at all times. And if you can laugh about that.

And the proper response is to hug the person next to you. Yeah. And laugh out loud. And eventually, things fade to black. So this is to say, what do we most want to be? Not alone. And so why am I on stage? Why do my show?

So I won't be alone. And I won't feel alone. And for the audience, I want that feeling too. I want them to feel not alone. Yeah. And so Derek show certainly is about seeing other people. Yeah.

About seeing and being seen, which was one of the first things I learned as an improviser, see and be seen, hear and be heard, feel and be felt. You know? Yeah. And that see and be seen aspect of Derek's show is about the acknowledgement that you're not alone. And mostly we get alone by putting blinders on, not being willing to see each other. And it's a self-imposed blindness.

And it's also associated with cynicism blindness. And it's also, it's associated with cynicism, that kind of blindness. And so if there is a relationship between the work I do and what I most loved about what Derek was doing, it was a, it penetrates loneliness. Yeah. It's funny because there is a inverse to what you're saying because famously, your scene partners have not been happy to be your scene partners. Like when you went

on O'Reilly's show years ago, when you did the correspondence dinner, right? That's different. So you're coming to it with like a- That's not my scene partner. Okay. My scene partner is the audience. Oh, interesting. Well, on that show, the scene partner was the audience.

Okay. Because we were playing a game together. Right. Where they, I was their instrument of chaos in a way. They agreed. For you to intellectualize this in this way is so enjoyable for me. Well, there was this, we learned something early on on that old show, which was, and I'm going to give you an example that may not be the best, but this is one that first comes to mind. would find some fault in the politicization of the Christian right, or Christianity in the form of the Christian right.

And I would say, well, I mean, all the founding fathers were fundamentalist Christians, so why shouldn't it be that way? Now, that's an absolute lie. Yes. You know, a lot of them were animists. That's right. A lot of them, they had a very jaundiced eye of religion. But I would win through my bluster, which was what my model did.

My models would win through bluster. Right. And the audience knew it wasn't true, but they would cheer when I would win in that moment, even though it would be this very odd cheer combined with laughter where they knew I shouldn't win. And they didn't want my idea to win, but they wanted my character to win against whoever this figure was who they actually agreed with. So it was an improv game. They were agreeing to the reality that I was establishing. They were agreeing to the reality that I was establishing.

And they wanted me to then impose that reality, which was an odd, distorted, funhouse mirror of the people I was making fun of, which is what satire is, he said from The Mountaintop with Moses. And they wanted me to clang up against the world. They wanted me to take that mirror out into the street, you know, and to win with the weapons of – with that weapon of bluster against the people who most wielded it. And so that's why the Correspondents' Dinner or O'Reilly or Testifying Before Congress or whatever like that. All of that – all of that was about that. testifying before Congress or whatever like that. All of that, all of that was about that. And, and for me, I also wanted to see what it was like to do this kind of stuff for real. Like if you did it for real, what would happen? Because again, going back to improvisation and what that taught me is that discovery is greater than invention. And that's why I like writing with somebody else, is that I can invent a script as I'm writing it. It's rarely discovery.

But if I write a script with you, I might discover something about what you're saying that interests me. And my interest then raises something in you that you didn't know was there, which is a discovery for you. And there's this feedback loop of discovery. And so that's why I really wanted a super PAC. I really wanted to run for president. I really wanted to go testify. I really wanted to see what really happens when you do it. What is the thing that's happening below the counter

that nobody talks about? Right. Because, you know, that's, oh, we don't talk about the part. Let's just, what's the part the audience sees? And I wanted the part that nobody saw to be what the audience sees. And because my character was interested in it, it then became performative, even though it's not normally part of the performance. That's so fascinating because, you know, I always think of that improv, learning improv in college, because Sharna Halpern and this Chicago team, Frank Booth,

came to my college to teach us improv when I was at Georgetown. And it was very formative for me. I was a freshman in college, and it changed my brain into thinking sort of yes and to everything, everything in my life, everything in relation to comedy or theater, everything. And to this day, it's how I write jokes. So it's like, you know, you come up with some kind of premise that's something that we all believe to be true. And then there's a right turn. And then

there's embellishments on the right turn that I, you know, that are tags, tags to the joke. And improv in so many ways is that same thing. It's a scene that's sort of a status quo. And then there's a right turn. And then you go, go, go, go into that right turn. Are you left-handed? Yeah. Because no one says right turn. Oh, that's so funny. Oh, that was a real left turn. It's always like, wow, that was a real left turn is the only way I've ever heard it said. Oh, that was a real left turn. It's always like, wow, that was a real left turn. It's the only way I've ever heard it said. Well, that was a real right turn.

No, no, obviously, everything's a right turn. That was a real left. I feel so stupid. This is how I've been describing jokes to people for like 10 years. And now for the first time, Stephen Colbert calls me out and says, nobody says that. Well, I mean, maybe they do because I'm right-handed, you know, and I'm, you know, dextro-centric. But maybe people, you know, listening to this right now could tweet on this to let us know. But I've only heard left turn.

Left turn, okay. Left turn. I might have to change that. But that's why I think the relationship between stand-up and improv is actually very firm. People think of them as sort of a, you know, when I was coming up in the late 90s, early 2000s, there would be like the improv camp and the stand-up camp, and they didn't really mingle. And I always thought that was so silly

because they're actually sort of one and the same. They didn't mingle in Chicago. I mean, in my day. Yeah, that's what I heard. But I'm before you. I mean, I'm probably 10 years ahead of you. Because I started spring of 85. Spring of 85 was the first time I ever went to,

I saw Dell and Sharna at CrossCurrents under the Belmont L in Chicago. And I was just there just as an audience member. I wasn't studying. And I immediately thought, I have to do this and I don't know why. Oh, I love that. I got to do this and I don't know why. That's a great feeling though. Yeah. It was, it was almost like, you know, Richard, Richard Dreyfuss with the potatoes

trying to sculpt the devil's tower in Close Encounters. I'm like, damn it, this immediately was a worm in my brain. And I started doing it constantly. And that thing you were talking about is so true. When you start, I think if you're taught improv in a certain way about agreement and addition and like the yes and of it, you know, which is, it is both simplistic and also holistic at the same time.

It is both like the most facile reduction of what you need to do and also the hardest fucking thing to do. And that's why it has a holistic quality and it gets into every aspect of your life. I said yes to everything. I mean, it got me in trouble. Like I would, I never said no to anything. And everything anyone ever said sounded like the initiation at the beginning of a scene. Because I would hear behind every sentence a whole other story I didn't know about. And then it started getting down for me into, I'd hear it behind individual words.

I realized, and it's true is what I discovered, is that behind every word, there's a story if you start to dig. Oh, wow. What does that, I have a raft of etymological dictionaries on the bookshelf over to my right here because I got so obsessed after I started improvising, I got so obsessed with etymology. But what's the story behind this one word or this one phrase, you know, the whole nine yards, whatever like that, whatever that what does that mean? Yeah. You know, and it changed the way I thought about communicating at all. Did you you said you were saying sort of saying yes to everything, you know, to good ends and bad ends in the

nineties when you were coming up in Chicago, did you ever say yes to something that you really regretted? No, I mean, mostly like overextended or, I mean, I mean like, yes, I will go to this next party with you. Like, yes, I will. Or, but, but never, I mean, it's like I, I said yes to projects, but I was often working in three at once because I didn't know what would catch fire. And, and I was like, Oh, I always had, I had three jobs until I had the Colbert pour. Oh, wow. I was like, oh, I always had, I had three jobs until I had the Colbert pour.

Oh, wow. I was always working three jobs because I didn't know what, where, even when I was at the Daily Show, I only worked three days a week at the Daily Show. Oh, wow. On Mondays and Fridays, I had off so I could do other jobs. Oh, my gosh. So what were you doing? Like voice work or acting? Yeah, usually a project with Paul and Amy. Oh, wow.

You know, shooting a film or writing a book or, yeah, doing other little side day projects or, you know, trying to work on a pilot, something like that. Always doing something else. When you're working with like Paul and Amy, who you worked with for a long time. About 17 years. Yeah.

What's your, because you did Exit 57 with them. Yeah. Strangers with Candy. Strangers with Candy with them. Yeah. And then we were also,

we were all hired on the same day at Second City. Oh my gosh. That's wild. What, so with that group, what's your,

what's your rap? What's the thing that people give you a hard time about? Oh, I mean, when I first started mean what did they make fun of you about oh how seriously i took it really is that i would never break on stage i would never break i would never fuck around i would never deviate from scripted material and and i would

get really mad at them when they would. And we'd be like, you know, we'd be like doing a show at Northwestern Colorado Community College in Rangeley, Colorado. And nobody out there knows how this scene's supposed to go. Nobody in Chicago knew how the scene was supposed to go. But in my head, I'm like, no, this is the material. This is the material. in my head I'm like no this is the material I'm a trained actor and this is the material and they we were not friends when it started off

we were not friends because they thought I had a stick up my ass and they were right and I thought Paul certainly I mean Amy I just immediately saw and they were right. And, and I thought Paul, certainly, I mean, Amy,

I just immediately saw such a such an extraordinary talent that I probably wouldn't meet again in my life. There was something about, there was something about her that I immediately thought, Oh, that's really special. And all I want to do is, is watch her on stage. And, and I was so lucky to, you know, be somebody who wrote for her for years. That's what Paul and I mostly did. Yeah. We wrote for ourselves too, but yeah, yeah.

She was the main character. Oh yeah, it was to serve, like, what can we do with Amy and her character? And it was such a joy and such a privilege to do. But Paul, I thought, was sort of like a troglodyte, knuckle-dragger, barely literate, which he kind of cultivated. But it was purely cultivated. Like, he still kind of does it, but it's not really, you know.

His dad is, you know, is the head of the clinical psychology department at DePaul University. And I caught him one day reading essays by Bertrand Russell. And I'm like, aha, you cultivate this Chicago Street, Doc Martin, leather jacket persona. But that's not really you. And one night they broke me on stage. you. Yeah. And, and after that one night they broke me on stage, we were again, somewhere out in the country, you know, in a small town, which we loved. I just, I, you know, there are very few places we went to over the years, you know, touring for years together. We, we didn't find

something we just really loved about every little town we were in. So we're in this little town and I'm supposed to go over to Amy and try to pick her up I think in the scene that's how this scene starts and and I tap her on the shoulder and she turns around and she's put in icky teeth she's put in giant like

brown icky teeth in and I burst out laughing and I was so mad at myself that after the show was over, I went and locked myself in the bathroom. And they stood outside the bathroom going, you're going to cry. Like basically mocking me and beating on the door.

And something broke in me and I went, they're totally right. am i doing like everyone the audience liked it and they had a good time and i'm i'm 24 why aren't i enjoying myself more and i i broke and i walked out of that bathroom a totally different guy and and we basically i mean we spend almost every day with each other for the next 15 years wow like there it was rarely a day went by when i didn't at least talk with him on the phone There was an interview where you talked about having anxiety in that period of your life because you didn't know in your 20s how the hell you were going to pull off

having a comedy career, which is such an outrageous idea. It doesn't have a clear path. Yeah. And it wasn't so much the comedy career. It was having a comedy career, but also thinking, but I also want that sort of mid-century American man normative, like the house and the car and the wife and the 2.3 some part of me really wanted I mean I got it but some part of me really wanted that and that was the conflict between those like I am absolutely rolling the bones on a high wire over here and over here is this supposedly normative life that means so much to me. And I had a nervous breakdown. The tension between those things was more than my brain could handle. What do you think is, what helped you get through that?

And do you ever experience it still? Do you ever have anxiety anymore? Oh, yeah, yeah. I have a lot, but not that. That was truly, I wouldn't wish that feeling on Tucker Carlson. Like, it was awful. I really, like, truly indescribably, I don't know if you've ever had a full-blown, like, panic attack, but it went on for months. Oh, wow. And it started the moment I woke up and didn't end until I went to bed at night. And it was like my skin was on fire. I remember one day, we'd only been married for a few weeks, actually.

Poor girl. We'd only been married for a few weeks, and I'd never exhibited anything like this before. And we lived in a fairly large apartment in Chicago, luckily, and there was a floating couch, meaning it wasn't against the wall. She came home, and I had my hands in my my pockets and I was walking in circles around the couch. And she said, how was your day? And I said, you're looking at it because I had just walked in tight circles around the couch for about eight hours. Oh, my gosh. And that kept my brain from reaching some psychological tipping point if I could just keep moving forward.

And it came about because I said no to something. Like you said, like, when did saying yes get you into trouble? Yeah. I really got into trouble the first time I said no. I was offered a part at Steppenwolf. The Looking Glass was doing their first show at Steppenwolf and they offered me a really great part in it but they weren't sure if they could pay me

it would all depend on how the box office went and even if they did it would be like an honorarium at the end of the run and that's how they lived and I said I'm married I've made a promise I won't work for free anymore I'm not going to do it so I said no and it's everything I wanted to do and I said, I'm married. I've made a promise. I won't work for free anymore. I'm not going to do it. So I said no.

And it's everything I wanted to do. And I said no. And I felt like, okay, your brain just betrayed your heart. And this is an irrecoverable choice. And you will never, ever be confident in another decision again for the rest of your life. Because this was the artistic choice but you made a practical choice and how can you be an artist and it's all over and now you've really thrown your life away because you're 30 and it's too late to start doing anything else wow and and that went on for months that feeling went on for months absolutely paralyzed and went on for months. Absolutely paralyzed.

And again, poor girl who just married me. Even just now you describing your anxiety attack, it convinced me it was true. And I was like, it is a big mistake. So here am I. I'm a newlywed. And I, but I think it's because I didn't say yes. I said no. And, and so that's when I really got in trouble is saying no, as much as saying yes is dangerous. I guess saying yes seems dangerous, but it's really saying no, that's dangerous because open doors can always be walked through and closed doors are closed sometimes forever.

And so here I am a newlywed and I wasn't even sleeping with my wife every night because I'd get up so much that I'd slept in a different room because I didn't want to wake her up. And one morning I woke up in the futon in the guest room. I woke up in the futon in the guest room and it was over and my skin wasn't on fire. And I searched, I probed,

like the way you probe around with your tongue in your mouth to find the cavity. Like, is it still hurt? I probed around with my tongue in my mind, you might say. And it was gone. And I went, what happened? What's different? And strange to say, it hadn't occurred to me immediately but it took me a second to realize oh today's the first day

that we're going to into rehearsal to write the new show yeah and you know rehearsal second city is weird because they call it process now but in our days it was just rehearsal meaning you're going to start generating material that then you'll craft into like tight scenes which will start to replace the old material and i immediately realized the thing that had saved me was i got to create something today yeah and then then that also scared me because i thought oh now i can never stop is that my fear was that i'd chosen the wrong thing for my life yeah but and that terrified, but then I realized I'd chosen exactly the right thing, but the exactly right thing was still just as unlikely as ever. If you know what I mean.

You've convinced me again. You've convinced me your anxiety is justified again. Yeah. But, but, and then my adult, not that I wasn't an adult then, but not as an adult as I am now, but my mature anxiety is way down with the coelacanths. Yeah. It's way down in the Marianas Trench. Yeah. You know, I actually have to, it takes a long time to crank one of those up and look at it and go, what is this about? Because things go pretty well for me now. So what is it that's actually still gnawing at the root? And it's really rooted things.

But anyway, those were some, I think that's the anxiety that you've probably heard about before from my young life. Everyone on your show give answers this long? I think these are great answers these are hall of fame answers okay okay well that's not that's nice i don't know how to answer these questions any quicker because you're asking things like anxiety what why do you do what you do

why do bad things happen to good people keep Keep it snappy. Keep it snappy. What was before God? This is a thing we do called the slow round, where a lot of it's based on memory. So, like, do you have a—you grew up in South Carolina, right? Yeah, I was born in Washington, D.C., but I really only remember South Carolina because I moved there when I was four. Do you have a smell from childhood that was really good or really bad that still sticks with you? Yeah, I have the smell of low tide. Oh, wow.

Because I grew up in the low country, and low, I mean, to a lot of people smells bad. Yes. Because it's decay is what you're smelling. You're smelling the decay that's left there. Sea life carcasses, right? Sea life slowly turning into pluff mud. And pluff mud is this mud that is a silt that's so fine that you put your hand in it and it feels like pudding. Like there's individual grains in there, but it's so well dispersed. And it's like, you know, why Velveeta melts so well is because

it's about 75% water. And basically, yeah, there's binders in there. They basically, to make Velveeta cheap, they put as much water as they possibly can in there, and it still holds a shape at room temperature. And that's why it melts instantly. And the same thing with pluff muds like that. It's almost all water, but it looks like mud because it's got this, it's probably just like fish bodies holding it together. And that smell is really terrible to some people. And I love it. I love that smell. So much is held together from fish bodies. Mm-hmm. So much depends.

So that's a good and bad smell. Yes. You know, and now, and it's a salty and, uh, it's almost like too much umami smell, you know? It's funky, but I love it. Too much umami makes the baby go blind. I was a member. I was a member of Too Much Light. I know.

For one day. Oh, were you really? Just one day? One day. Too Much Light Makes the Baby Go Blind is a classic Chicago theater show where they perform 100 different mini plays, basically. 30 plays in 60 minutes.

Yeah. It was 30 plays in 60 minutes and then a certain number of the plays between 2 and 12 would switch out every week. How come you're only one day? I had worked at the Second City for a few years in the touring company.

I guess like two, two and a half years or something like that. And they weren't using me to understudy, because it's a rep system there. Basically, you tour, you learn tons of material over the last, now it would be 60 years, but in the time, it was 30 years. Tons of material over the previous 30 years.

So you basically learn a form. And then when you're in a resident company, you make the form your own. So you basically learn a form. And then when you're in a resident company, you make the form your own. And people bend and break it. Or people just do, we kind of wanted to be this 1959 cast. So Paul and I wore sharkskin suits and short haircuts.

And Amy kind of looked like Barbara Harris. And she wore like A-line dresses and stuff like that. And, but, what was the question? You were in it for one day. Oh, so I had toured for a couple years, and they weren't using me as an understudy. So I wasn't, that's basically how you know you're being considered to go into a resident company at Second City.

And they would never understudy me. And then at a certain point, Paul and Amy both got placed in resident companies, and my two buddies were gone. And it's not like there aren't other talented people there. I just thought, I guess they're never going to use me. And so I went into Joyce Sloan, the maven there, the doyine of Second City. And I said, hey, I've had a great time, but sometimes people stay here too long and they get bitter and I still really like it here and so I'm going to go

because y'all don't seem to be using me. And she said, don't threaten me. Oh my gosh. I don't respond well to threats. And I said, I'm not. I promise you I'm not. This is all just gratitude because threats won't work i'm like it's i just i i'm just gonna go do straight theater i guess i don't know um it's been great i've learned so much i gotta go and uh she said if you leave

that's it i'm like i'm i understand this is a tough decision. So I left and I called up Anne Halliday, who was an old friend of mine. We'd actually dated in college and she was a member of Too Much Light. And I said, hey, do you guys ever take samples like from outside? Because I've started writing short stories. And would you, some of them might work for you guys. And I just want to do something else. And she goes, sure, come on up. So I went up, I met them.

I met everybody there. I'd seen the show many times. I loved it. I thought it had just the most wonderful, really beautiful, creative and anarchic spirit. I just loved everything about it. I love their relationship to the audience. I love that when they said, when we sell out, we order out.

Because if you would go and they sold out, they would order one pizza that got split among all 70 members of the audience. I love that when they said, when we sell out, we order out. Cause if you would go and they sold out, they would order one pizza that got split among all 70 members of the audience. It would come in 70 slices. And I love, there was something about that that was just absolutely fucking right to me. And so I read them some of my short stories, which were literally like a page long and they said, okay, we'll do a couple of these. And then they had a little meeting and they said, would you like to join? I said, yes, I would. And they said, you're in. And I started, they said, here, learn these plays. And they gave me what they were doing. And the next day Joyce called me and said,

you're going to go in for Carell or whatever, because Carell was about a year ahead of me. And so I called those guys up and I said, hey, I've worked for like three years for this moment and I didn't think it was going to happen, but they said, yes, I hate to say it, but I got to take it. Wow. And they said, that's fine. We understand. So that was why I was a member for one day. Do you have a memory from childhood on a loop that sticks with you? And it's not a story, but it's just something that that goes around in your head sometimes? I mean, more than there is time to possibly describe. I feel like my head is mostly occupied with just little,

I guess today the kids would say little TikToks from my childhood that don't actually have a story. It's just an event. Like, I got hit by a car. I got actually have a story. It's just an event. You think of grade school? I got hit by a car. I got hit by a car. No kidding. And all the time, I picture the car about to hit me.

Oh, my gosh. Jesus. And it's not a frightening memory because the impact I have no memory of. I just have a memory of the car. Because the memory of the impact got knocked out of my head. I don't remember anything for a long time after I got hit. And so I remember that, a gold LTD with a textured roof, like one of those leatherette kind of textured roofs,

and the guy behind the steering wheel was a man with a short crew cut blonde hair. That's what I remember. Wow. Do you remember a point in your childhood or teenage years where you were an inauthentic version of yourself, where you sort of cringe thinking about? Yeah, sure. Yeah, I fell in with a popular crowd at one point.

You fell in with a popular crowd. I did. I fell in with a popular crowd because I was known to be unpopular. And one of them and one of them um one day and the thing is i fell with it i fell in i was in i was in an unpopular crowd i was so outside of the um i was so outside of the social circle of my high school not even high school like like from sixth grade on, that I wasn't even like recognized as one of the planets in the solar system of my high school. I was out, you know, the metaphor I've used before on this is I was out in the Oort cloud

where comets might come from, we're not sure. But I had smoked a little pot. Yeah. I had smoked a little weed. but I had smoked a little pot. Yeah. I had smoked a little weed. And somebody who was very much at the heart of the solar system,

for whatever reason, maybe because he was high, called me up and said, hey, I want to know what it would be like to get high with a nerd. Oh, my God, no. Yeah. And I said, okay, okay. Oh, my gosh and uh and and it turned out to be a positive experience for him and and i became uh and like six months later i would like show up to a party i remember one of the jocks at the school turned around at a party and said all right steven's here now this is a party

and i went what has happened in my life like i became because i i became like i made jokes you know what i mean like i was the i was class clown yeah and i got in there i got i got there because one popular guy wanted to see what it was like when i was high. And I made him laugh a lot. And then that, and then, and I, I mean, I ditched my unpopular friends. Not actively like, I don't want to be with you. But I, but I ditched them to the point where I remember one of them once came to my house and said, how'd you do it? Like, what's the secret? Right. And I said, like, well, just come out with us.

Like, just come out with us and let's just come out with us and people will like you. Just come hang out. Right. And he's like, no, I need you to give me like the A squared plus B squared equals C squared about this. I need you to give me the AP lit, you know, sentence diagram of how you did it. And I'm like, I don't know. Yeah. I don't really know.

And I, I, I did not consider my friend's feelings to the degree that now I perceive of as callous and self-centered. And I have a fair amount of shame associated with it. Yeah. It was 40 years ago. But I still...

I think it's important that you feel some shame over that. I still feel some shame over that. I'm still friends with the guys. The unpopular friends from South Carolina. And I'm not... You're not friends with popular guys. The unpopular friends from South Carolina. Okay. And I'm not, I mean. You're not friends with popular kids. Well, I don't have an active break with them,

you know, though I don't want to ask them who they voted for. I don't have an active break with them, but it just, it's not as, it has not, it has not been as nutritious as a relationship as one would want in your later life. Speaking of which, my brother Joe wanted to chime in at some point that he would request you run for Senate in South Carolina

at some point at your leisure. Okay, I hate to disappoint your brother, but no fucking way. I had a feeling it might be something like that. Yeah, I mean, it's bad enough that people mistake me for the news. Yes. No, I know. For a politician. Yeah.

Tell your brother I'm deeply insulted. What's the strangest neighbor you have growing up or family friend who's sort of memorably unique? Well, there's a fair competition growing up on Willow Lake Road in James Island, South Carolina. Okay, here's weird. So Willow Lake, Small Lake, up the street from us, there was a family from Shreveport, Louisiana. And, you know, South Carolina is southern.

As my father used to say, all roads lead north from South Carolina. Yes. But I'd never met anybody from Shreveport, Louisiana. That's real southern and this family who were called the Stroms and however you said their name they would say Strom and you would say Strom?

and they'd be like Strom and you're like I'm sorry are you saying Strom like a strong man? and they would go Strom and you're like is strong man? And they would go, stroum. And you're like, is it stroum? Like the German name, stroum? And they go, stroum. And so never, no idea to this day exactly what the name was. But they had three girls, two boys and three girls.

And the three girls in the middle were named Stormy, Misty, and Dusty. And they were born on the same day, different years. And then the oldest boy was named, the youngest boy was named Percy, and the oldest boy was named Gator. And I can feel my accent coming back just talking about this family. And Gator taught me how to throw a knife. Oh my gosh. And so I'm okay with throwing knives. I can, from a fair distance, I can sink a knife into a tree or whatever, a target or something like that. I'm pretty good at it. We went to Russia a couple of years ago

and I met with some billionaire who had a dungeon like martial arts lab. And he was like, here, throw throw these knives can you throw these knives and i'm sinking knives into the corners like yeah not bad like thank you gator you taught me when i was like eight and i've and i taught my kids too i got each of the kids i bought them um my daughter wasn't interested i offered i offered but my sons were really interested. So I bought them each like really kind of cheap knives from a hardware store. And I engraved their names with the drum roll into the handles. And I go, now I want you to keep this in your bedside table.

Oh my gosh. And if an intruder comes in, I'm going to teach you how to protect the family by catching them right in the sternum as they're coming up the steps. And they still have them. I mean, they're all gone now, but in their bedside tables, those knives are still up there. So don't come into my house, fucker. Oh, no, I get it. Because I've got one in my bedside table.

Do you think I didn't get one for Dad? Mine just says Dad in the handle. That reminds me of a bit I wrote a few years ago, which is I was in, I want to say it was in Georgia once at an airport. And this woman, I was at a rental car agency in a garage. And this woman from about 30 feet away goes, she goes, and this is how I heard it. I don't know what she said, but she goes, she had a very thick accent. She goes, yep, yep, yep, yep, yep, yep, yep, yep, hat.

And the only word that I understood was the word hat. And I go, what? And she goes, hat. And I was like, oh, no, because, you know, you can't ask twice. Right. And I'm looking for context clues, and I'm wearing a baseball cap. And I go, yeah, this is some kind of hat. And she goes, no.

Dip, dip, dip, dip, dip, dip, dip, hat. And then I thought, I guess I will never know this person. There are some accents in this country. It's like your Strom story. I just, I can't, I can't suss it out. There was a commercial when I was growing up in South Carolina, in Charleston, for a story that still exists. It used to be called Gerald's Recaps, you know, like a retreaded tire. Yeah.

Gerald's Recaps. And now it's Gerald's Tires and Brakes. But it's still the same thing. They have this international orange building where you'd go in and get your recaps done, and the ad was always a rotating tire, and the inside of it was clearly green screen because as the tire would come around,

another testimonial face would appear in the tire to talk about how great the service was at Gerald's, and there was this guy, and this might be what I say on my deathbed. My grandchildren would say, why did Grandpa say that? And his testimony was this. I find I get better mileage with the ones that are down there than the ones that are put down there. And you know exactly

what he means. Right. I find I got better mileage with the ones that are owned than the ones that are put it on there. I can't believe it. And I'm sure it means

the retreads actually give him better mileage than the stock tires that came when I bought it from the dealership. And if you break it down slowly, he's going, I find I get better mileage with the ones that it own than the ones that put it on there.

And that's when I really need to plug in to an authentic South Carolina, not Charleston, which is a different thing, but an authentic South Carolina accent. That's what I got to say. I'll say that backstage myself. That's beautiful. That's what I got to say. I'll say that backstage myself. That's beautiful. That's my hook. I don't usually ask this as a slow round question, but because I look up to you comedically, but also personally, you're a father and you've raised kids that are grown now.

Yeah. Yeah, they're like, my youngest is going to turn 20 soon. My daughter's six. What's the best advice you would give about raising a child? The best advice that I ever got was from Maurice Sendak. I had the opportunity to interview him out on his farm. Wow. And I asked him, what do you, I'm you, he didn't have children, but he wrote books that people perceived as being for children, though he didn't.

Oh, interesting. I didn't know that. No, he never, he goes, I don't write for children. I write books. Somebody said this must be for a child. I just write books. But we talked about children and what children need, like how to be a good parent.

You know, the thing that he, in some ways, maybe he didn't get. Yeah. And I asked his advice, same kind of advice. And he said, love them. Yeah. Love them completely. Yeah. And now what does that mean is up to everybody.

But I actually think it's like yes and. It is so simplistic and yet so holistic at the same time that if you can't find the advice in the sentence yes and, and you can't find the advice in the sentence love them completely, then I've already failed as a parent if I can't find it within the confines of that sentence. That's profound. I'm a very profound person, Mike Birbiglia. You're saying it in jest, Stephen, but I'm gonna- I'm not joking.

I'm not, am I smiling? Am I so much as cracking a fucking smile right now, Birbiglia? My God, this has turned so hostile. One of my favorite jokes. I did it for years. I don't do it anymore, but I would do it every time someone would say, oh, that was nice. Like, say like, you know, say that. That was nice.

Yeah, that was nice. Yeah, I'm a nice fucking person. I like that. You're acting like you're fucking surprised that I did something nice. You know what? Fuck you. Fuck you for surprised that I did something nice. You know what? Fuck you. Fuck you for saying that was nice of me. Oh, yeah, you seem like a human being.

I am a fucking human being. I love that. And, well, I'm glad you do, because a lot of people don't. Yeah, I enjoy that. That joke went right by a lot of people. Well, the material that I was going to run by you today does have to do with parenting. I took my daughter recently for a sleepover for the first time, and we picked her up. And I drove with my wife, Jen, to get her.

And she goes, Mom. And she hugs my wife. And then the other mom goes, What about Dad? Like she had to be prompted on it. And she literally didn't even hug me. She goes, Let me get my bag. Like somehow me being there made me think of her bag. But I think sometimes that's what dads are.

They're a reminder that you forgot your bag. I want to be like, hey, by the way, you know who's driving the car? Dad's driving the car. You know who's in traffic for 45 minutes? That was dad. You know who didn't drive the car? The bag. And your mom, but that's for

another time. But so that's one. Okay. And then I have, uh, no matter what you do, no matter what you do as a parent, your children will eventually reject you. One day I took my daughter to horseback riding class and it was like watching her grow up right in front of my eyes and then mount a horse and then trot away, leaving me in the dust on a horse that I paid for. And that's the best case scenario. She could have trampled me to death with the horse,

and I'd have to say, thank you, Una, for trampling me with this horse. And my dying words would be, you're doing a great job. Anyway, that's what I think parenting is. So that's joke number two. I like two more than one. You like two more than one. Okay.

Am I supposed to express an opinion? No, yeah, yeah. No, that's great. And then I'll tell you joke number three. Okay. And then we can, I'll break them apart for a sec. And then this is, and I'm sure you experience this to some degree with kids and danger and all this stuff is like my worry about sending my daughter to camp, summer camp, is that when I went to my first sleepaway camp as a kid, we didn't tell my parents about

any of the dangerous stuff that occurred. Like we got to pick five activities. One of mine was riflery. And my parents didn't even know that was one of the things. I was a fidgety 11-year-old who always dropped the bowl of orange slices on the way to soccer practice. Clearly, what I needed to clean up my act was a fidgety 11-year-old who always dropped the bowl of orange slices on the way to soccer practice. Clearly, what I needed to clean up my act was a firearm. Another activity I chose was horseback riding.

And when I was there, one of the kids got bucked off the horse and died. And they didn't have us stop riding the horses. And I was on the horse thinking, maybe I should stick to something safe like rifles. Another activity I chose was drama. And one day, was a police cruiser showed up at camp, took one of my drama counselors away, who threatened one of the other counselors in a walk-in freezer with a knife. That's a little dramatic if you ask me. A little over the top, I have a few notes. We got home from camp that week. My mom says, how was camp? We said it was great.

And she never heard a word about any of those things. And I'm that mom taking my daughter to camp. And I'm like, how was camp? And she was like, great. And I want to be like, what about the rifles and the walk-in freezer? But I don't say that because that would be crazy. That's why I'm telling you. I really like that one.

I like the implication that our own lies come back to haunt us. Oh, that's nice. I like that. I like that our own lies come back

in the unknown lives of our children. Yes. Because I so lucky to be alive. That's how I feel all the time. From the things that I did in high school. And it's not like I was a worse person than my children or my children don't have the adventurous spirit

of the teenage years that I had. That's autonomic. That's biological. There's no way they weren't doing things that were awful. Sure. But I'll tell you why I like the second one the most. Okay.

Is that it's about the exquisite self-negation of love. Yes, yes. That's what I like about it. Is that to be trampled to death by your daughter on a horse, you could honestly say, you're doing a great job, honey.

Because you mean it. Like, oh, look at my sternum. They grow up so fast. Oh, that's nice. You're going to do great. If you can kill me like that, I'm not worried about you at all. Oh, I love that. That's what I like about it, is that it's about love.

Yeah. And it's so true. It also feels so true. The third one feels true, too, but there's a simplicity to that middle one I really like. true too, but there's a simplicity to that middle one I really like. So the final thing that we end on is working it out for a cause, and you choose a non-profit that I will donate to and link to in the show notes and encourage people to donate to as well. Oh, great. It's called Somos Amigos. And it is doctors that go down to the Dominican Republic to a very remote part of the DR, which is like an hour away from

the nearest paved road, right by just about 30 miles from the Haitian border. And they bring health care and dental care to people who have never had it in their lives. Wow. And it's been around since the late 90s. And Evie and I support it every year. We support also the ice cream, our ice cream fund. You know, the Stephen Colbert's Americone Dream. Some of the money goes there. And it's just a wonderful organization.

And they haven't been able to go down because of COVID. Wow. So they're actually now using most of their funding to actually bring in Dominican doctors who they've managed to locally build a facility there. Because it was literally just working in tents for decades down there. Now they've got a small facility down there and I just love the, it's extraordinarily selfless work that they do. Well, I'm going to donate to them and, uh, and Steven, I cannot thank you enough. It's such a great honor to have you on the show and talk about this stuff that, that, uh, is just literally dream come true to talk to you about. Oh, Mike, it was a ton of fun, and I'm a fan.

And not only am I a fan, but I really, you should know that everybody I ever talk to about you just thinks the world of you. You have people have, Burbiggs gets big ups from everybody. Oh, that's so nice. You're fooling a lot of people, Mike. All at once.

All at the same time. Wow. Well, you have my vote for Senate in South Carolina, sir. It's done. That's going to do it for another episode of Working It Out with Stephen

Colbert. You know where to find him. He's Stephen at home in various social media places. He's on The Late Show with Stephen Colbert. Thank you for joining us. If you're enjoying the show, go on Apple Podcasts or

one of the other user review sites and throw us some stars, a review. The producers of Working It Out are myself, along with Peter Salamone and Joseph Birbiglia. Consulting producer, Seth Barish. Sound mix by Kate Balinski. Sound engineer, Alan Guss. Associate producer, Mabel Lewis.

Thanks to my consigliere, Mike Berkowitz, as well as Marissa Hurwitz and Josh Upfall. Special thanks, as always, to Jack Antonoff and Bleachers for their music. They are on tour right now. As always, a special thanks to my wife, the poet J. Hope Stein. Our book, The New One, is at your local bookstore.

It is perfect timing for the holiday season. As always, a special thanks to my daughter, Una, who created a radio fort made of pillows. Thanks most of all to you who have listened. Tell your friends. Tell your enemies. We're working it out. See you next time, everybody.