Mike Birbiglia's Working It Out - 58. Jimmy Carr: Life Is Better With Laughter

Episode Date: November 1, 2021

Legendary British comedian Jimmy Carr begins his conversation with Mike by saying, “I wrote a book in lock-down because it was that or a podcast and I figured a book would be more dignified.” This begins an hour-long chat between friends that jumps from jokes to roasts to a genuine and vulnerable discussion of how laughter has the power to heal us. https://www.smcyouthwork.org/

All right. So, I finished your book last night. I loved it. I mean, this is great. This is... And you think listeners should buy the book? Is that what you're saying? That's the subtext.

Wait. Wait a second. Wait a minute. No. No. No, I don't. After careful consideration of the entire episode, I think they should make a decision on their own.

Using, doing their own research, Jimmy. Right. I mean, I think I'd rather live in a world where we rely on experts. You know, I'm listening to Fauci about vaccines. I want to listen to Mike Birbiglia about books. Now, should they buy this book or not? I think they need to listen to the full episode. I mean, this is, I mean, have you considered a career in politics? Because think they need to listen to the full episode. I'm sorry.

I mean, have you considered a career in politics? Because you really are swerving the question here. Yeah, so I wrote a book in lockdown because it was that or a podcast, and I figured a book would be more dignified. Some offense, Mike. Some offense. But, you know, it's lovely to be on your podcast, on your very nearly radio show.

in January for three weeks. That's 23 shows. It's going to be very, it's going to be so fun. It's my new show, The Old Man and the Pool. If you're anywhere in the Northern California area, that's a great one to see.

It's a gorgeous theater, the Berklee Repertory Theater. I'm also going to be at the Moore Theater in Seattle in February. More dates being announced soon. There's going to be a London one soon announced, maybe a Paris one. Join the mailing list.

There's some exciting stuff coming. Today we have Jimmy Carr, one of my favorite comics, one of my favorite people to talk to. I mean, so smart, so original and unique. He wrote a book called Before and Laughter, a life-changing book, which I thought was an absolute page-turner. I feel like I've quoted it a lot in my life since it came out. It's not just about jokes and laughter in relation to comedians and audiences, but in relation to the healing power of laughter in our lives and the way that we look at our lives through the lens of laughter.

I think it's super, super smart. Quick warning, Jimmy, if you don't know this, is very well known for, if you've seen him on the roasts or you've seen one of his specials, like on Netflix, Funny Business, he's very raw, He's very raw. He's very dark.

He writes jokes that are very extreme. I really enjoy them. If that's not what you are interested in today, maybe this isn't the episode for you. But I feel like it was such a great conversation. I can't wait for you to listen to my conversation with the great Jimmy Carr. The book was, and correct me if I'm wrong, the book lands somewhere between a humor book, a memoir, a self-help book,

and a text, a philosophy text. I feel like it sort of straddles all these things. Yeah, I mean, I'm pitching it as it's Eckhart Tolle for people that like dick jokes. Yeah. You know, because I think there's a huge subset of people that I know and my audience that maybe wouldn't read a self-help book. They wouldn't feel like they wouldn't be drawn to that area of the bookstore. But actually, that stuff is very interesting, but it's often

presented in a very po-faced, very serious way. So I like the idea of bringing humor to that. I like the idea, and really, my philosophy on life is the idea that you go, well, actually, everything in life is better with a sense of humor. I mean, your show, Thank God for Jokes, makes that point brilliantly, I think.

The idea that you go, any bit of life, any toughness, anything you have to get through, and there's tough bits for all of us, it's better through the lens of comedy. Yeah, I think that that's one of the things I found most compelling about the book is that it's so distinctly about humor and comedy, and yet you could apply it to absolutely anything,

any field, any interest. And I think that's where the universality of the book lies. Because I feel like a lot of times you get in the weeds with books about comedy, books about humor, laughter, and it's dry, and it's not funny. And meanwhile, yours is very substantive, and it's dry. Yeah, it's not funny. Meanwhile, yours is yours is very substantive, but it's got a ton of jokes. Well, I think the I think the distinction they make the publishers is, you know, if you write a book about jokes, it's very niche. I read a book about jokes about 15 years ago, which is it's very niche, like comics like it, but it doesn't

really apply to anyone else. But humor is fairly universal. And the idea that sort of the central premise of the book, the idea that disposition is as important as position, is really kind of, that's about the extreme version is becoming a comedian. But I think everyone does better with humor. Teachers do better with humor. Doctors do better with humor. Everyone does better with this lightness of touch.

And there's an idea that it's part of our shared culture as well. The idea that we, laughter predates language by about a million years. It's an incredibly important part of our development as human beings that we are able to laugh. Yeah. It's interesting because over the years, you and I became friends, I would say, like, at Montreal Festival. Okay, so it's interesting the different interpretations of what friendship could mean. I mean, I know you. I think we're friends.

No, it was definitely Montreal. It was like those lovely—Montreal is—I mean, I'm sure you've spoken about it a lot on the podcast, but it is summer camp for comedians. It's that lovely camaraderie of comedians. Alan Havey had the best line on it. You know, Alan, just a wonderful comic. And he said, look, we're out for ourselves, but in it together. There's something about comics when they come together. It's like, no one's really, we're trying to come up with our own bits and our own style and our own new stuff. And whatever you're doing, great. Whatever I'm doing, great. It's like, one's really, we're trying to come up with our own bits and our own style and our own new stuff. And whatever you're doing, great. Whatever I'm doing, great. It's not like actors that are slightly more, well, if you get that role, then I can't get that role.

There's more of a natural competition there. Yeah. I think that one of the things that fascinates me about you is that you're known as a comedian who hosts these hit shows on TV and does one-liners and does roasts. That's probably what you're known most for. And yet, you've given me notes on maybe three or four of my shows, and a lot of the notes you give are about emotional beats and dramatic beats in the show. Like, I remember with the new one, you and I talked extensively about the most dramatic line in the show, which is, I get why dads leave,

which is a very dark moment. And we talked, I would say, for a couple hours at lunch one day in Montreal about that specific line. And I don't think people would know that about you. I mean, I remember. I'm never going to get that time back. No, it

is interesting, actually. It's so interesting as a creative to have that kind of... It's very easy, I think, with looking at other people's shows and seeing the possibilities and the, you know, what it needs. Oh, that needs to go, that needs to stay.

To see that in your own work is so difficult. It's so difficult sometimes to step back. I think in life as well, I've got this bit in the book about, it's so easy to see other people's bullshit. It's so easy to call other people's bullshit. And it's so hard to see it in yourself. Sure. It's like, it's just weirdly, we all have that little blind spot of like not being able to, or you're too in love with a bit of material to go, well, just try it a different way. But it kind of works this way. Yeah, but try it a different way. It might be bigger. By the way, when you come to my shows in Montreal, people laugh at the sound of you laughing at the show.

Yeah, I've got this. Well, the worst thing about my laugh is when I go and see a friend's show, A, they know I'm there. They know from the first laugh I'm there. And then every other joke, I get the sense they're looking at me like, oh, nothing on that one? Nothing on that one. And then, you know, when I laugh, it's like people, it's quite infectious to have a strange laugh. Sure, sure.

Yeah, it's slightly wired wrong. I think the reason I do comedy is my mother had an extraordinary weird laugh. Like my laugh's quite weird. My laugh is on an in, not an out. So instead of going, ha-ha, it's on a ha-ha, ha-ha, ha-ha. It's a weird innie laugh. So it sounds like a learning disabled goose having a panic attack, which is fine. Now, my mother had a laugh that made no noise whatsoever.

She had a thing called narcolepsy, which is a sleep disorder that I believe you also have an interest in. Yes, yes, I sleepwalking, yeah. Yeah, people will know Mike is, I think it's a medical term, weirdo. Weirdo. Sleeps in a sleeping bag properly.

That's what it is, yeah. But my mother had this narcolepsy where she would make zero noise when she laughed. She would, her head would bobble. You'd be able to tell that she could laugh. And she had cataplexy. So she would fully lose muscular control and collapse if she laughed enough.

Oh my gosh. Which was fabulous as a child because she would walk in with a tray of tea and biscuits. And if you could say shit funny enough, she would just fully kind of like, oh, when she was driving, she drove. If you made her laugh in the car, it was like you had to grab the wheel. It was extraordinary. Oh my gosh.

Wow. The, there are jokes in this book that are so dark. so dark and uh i feel like wouldn't fly in america but i think fly in the uk i mean i i played a fair amount in america and i've done some fairly dark stuff i mean are you saying that dark jokes don't work in america quick let's get anthony jesselnik on the phone and let him know. Yeah. Well, the one, okay. You have a joke where you say, they say there's safety in numbers. Tell that to 6 million Jews. And I just thought that is one of the most concise and darkest jokes that I've ever seen on the page. Yeah. I mean, I'm never, I'm never sure whether these things work on the page, but certainly, you know, at the end of a live show, I think joking about, Joan Rivers had the best line about joking about

the Holocaust. She said, they say, never forget. Well, this is how I remember. Yeah, I like that. Like, keeping bringing it up. And sometimes you, And sometimes you do something with a taboo topic and you go, is this worthwhile? Is it a joke that's anti-Jewish? And you go, well, no, it's incredibly pro-Jewish. It's talking about it. And you have another super dark joke in the book that made me laugh out loud and speaks to my upbringing, which is wanting to be a priest when you were a kid and then realizing that you weren't that interested in children. Yeah, I think the wording was like, you know, when I was a kid, I wanted to be a priest. But fundamentally, I don't find children that attractive.

Oh, my gosh. Oh my gosh. And I want to be clear to the listeners, because I feel like my listeners tend to be on the more pruder side, because I'm not that dark of a comedian, is that I'm going to make a case for dark jokes. I mean, listen, I can make the case if you want. If you're busy, I'll do it. Well, I was just going to say, so that's a dark joke, you know,

but it's based on this massive sexual abuse scandal that's extremely well documented. And every now and then I tell this joke from many albums ago, which is I was an altar boy as a kid, and the answer is no, I wasn't. And I think it's because they knew I was a talker. I have that look about me. And sometimes I get these emails from people and they say, that's victim blaming

because it implies that people who were abused weren't talking or telling people. I mean, they've really overthought the joke. It's just a joke. It's just, I had a guy come up to me after a show. I did that joke. He said, I was abused by a priest.

I said, no, no you weren't. I was just dressed as a priest. Oh my gosh. That's crazy. But I mean, it's that thing of the That is crazy. Those things happened. And here's my argument for dark humor.

Here's my, to your listeners, that may be slightly more prudish and wouldn't really be drawn to my sense of humor. The darkness. I think comedy is nice when things are going great. I like it when people come to shows. There'll be 2,000 people in my show tonight and most of them just having fun. This is bonus comedy. This is just an extra laugh. We're releasing endorphins. We're feeling happy.

Some people will need it. I'm always aware there'll be someone in my audience that needs to laugh tonight. Something dreadful is happening in their life. They or someone they love very much is going through something terrible. It could be death, could be disease, could be just a tough time of bankruptcy, strains, stresses. Life is like that. Sometimes laughter is the release. You get to forget about it for a couple of hours. And sometimes you can't forget about it. Sometimes you're going through something so hard that you're either laughing or crying. And if you can face those things with a sense of humor, if you go to a hospice, if you go and spend time with the dying, and I think you've done that gig with me,

the Hope and Cope gig in Montreal, right? They put on a gig every year in a hospice, which is beautiful. But it's like, you know, you're playing to people that are in palliative care and they're dying of cancer. And to talk about that, to talk about and make jokes about cancer, this terrible thing that's, I think, probably affected, I mean, 99% of people have been

affected or touched by it. It's very empowering because you take this dark, ominous presence and you take its power away and you laugh at it and you laugh in its face yeah and it becomes an i think a sense of humor is an incredible uh it's life and yes it's only really useful in those moments in the in the darkness it's in regular life it's fine and listen we're both making a living robbing a living as comedians but sometimes people need it and that's that's where that darkness, like, we're funny on stage and people come and see the shows, but really the greatest jokes are always going to be in jokes. They're going to be personal jokes between you and your family and you and your friends.

And the most significant jokes are going to be the ones at the toughest times, those incredibly tough times. And you can laugh in those moments, and it becomes an incredible therapy. That's, I think, why we have the sense of humor. That's why I think it's a better way to view life. I completely agree, and I also think people say, you know, it's in poor taste or this or that,

and to that I say, no one else is talking about it. Like, comedians are getting up and they're bringing up the sexual abuse in the Catholic Church. Yeah. Who else brought that up to you in your life today? Because it's reminding us of the problems that we're confronting as a society, but it's doing it in a way that we can laugh about and then hopefully address. Well, I think there's an argument to say that laughter only really happens once there's some element of healing. You often have topics which are very difficult to joke about because there's

been no justice. So we had a disaster in the UK about maybe 30 years ago called Hillsborough, where there was a terrible tragedy happened at a football stadium. A lot of people died, and it was not their fault. And they were blamed by the police, and they were blamed by the papers. And it has never been something that people are comfortable joking about. It's never been something that's okay, because there's no closure on that. And I think if you look at something like, you know, if you look at something like Black Lives Matter, if you look at something like the, Black Lives Matter as a cultural phenomenon, you can talk about on stage, that's okay. But to talk about the deaths of those individuals, there's no justice. No justice has

been seen. So how can you, you can't process it. Laughter is a way of sort of saying that you process this. You've kind of got through, if you can laugh about it, the healing is beginning. It's a really interesting, I think it's can laugh about it, the healing is beginning. It's a really interesting, I think it's a really interesting barometer of healing is beginning and we can start to, no one was making Titanic jokes the next day. Right. Do you, the Hillsborough incident,

are you able to make jokes about that? No. No, I'm not kidding. It's also, there's a risk reward on these things. Like I don't have anything to say. Nothing has occurred to me. And it's, I don't say things that are dark for the sake of it.

It's never about offending people. It's always about making people laugh. And, you know, hey, listen, if I offend people, that's just a bonus. But that thing of going, my job is to make people laugh. And actually some of these dark things are very, there's a lot of tension. So the release is huge when you talk about that. And it's like, okay, this is fine.

Is there anything you've evolved on in terms of comedy being regressive or anything where you've changed your mind in the last few years? Yeah, I mean, I changed, I mean, from a personal point of view, it's one of my favorite questions. It's something that I have in the book. You know, great question. My favorite question, what was the last thing you changed your mind about? Yeah, I think I changed my mind, you know, all the time on things. It's like, you know, the world is evolving and growing. I think jokes are always going to be jokes. They're never taken seriously. It's not really a standpoint. Certainly the kind of comedy that I do, it's rare that I'm like, I'm not telling people how to vote. I'm not a particularly political

comedian. It's politics with a small p, you know, it would be. So there's, in terms of material, there's not stuff that I look back on and go, wow, that was super edgy. I wouldn't do that now. It's weird because all of the stuff I've ever said exists in one moment. It's all on YouTube. It's all on Netflix right now. So the joke that ends my career is already out there. I've already told it and there's nothing I can do about it. I might as well just relax. Is there any topic that you used to think, no, you can make jokes about it. I might as well just relax. Is there any topic that you used to think,

no, you can make jokes about that. And now you go, well, maybe we shouldn't make jokes about that. I don't think so. I don't think there's anything that I've really... No, because I think all of those things are like worthy of... I mean, I think the sensitivity has increased. I think if you're going to talk about, you know, trans issues, the level of respect you need to bring to it, you can tell a very edgy joke about it, and it can still be

respectful and inclusive. I mean, I'm not a big fan of saying, I find it a little bit patronizing when people go, well, that group cannot take a joke. So if you're going to talk about things that are incredibly sensitive, there's a way of doing that that feels inclusive. And it feels like, here's the quick and easy rule for me. Never tell a joke if you've got to look around before telling it. Yes. That's so smart. I love that. That thing that you would see in a social setting of like, okay, it's just us here. Here's one for you.

That's like, those are the bad jokes. That's no good. Those are the bad jokes. If it's like, I've got a blindfold and I don't know who I'm talking to, I'm telling you the joke. Great. And everyone that's in. You know, so if you're going to joke about disability,

my rule has always been, if there's a tetraplegic couple in the front row, I have a nice tetraplegic couple that come and see me in Ipswich. Anyway, they're in the front row in basically hospital beds. And if you were going to tell a joke about disability, you go, I'm going to drop it this evening because those guys are in. You can never tell that joke again. Never.

So you either tell it or you don't. You either go, look look this is acceptable this is this is great i'm not telling it because they're not here i'm jealous of you because you were friends with stephen hawking and you talk about it in the book yeah he was i mean i don't know anything about physics as well i maybe maybe that friendship was wasted on me and we both like musical theater and we like parties and drinking and spicy food so it was a friendship based on that we were at the same college years and years ago and then I met him at a function and said,

oh, listen, I knew you when I was at college. You nearly ran me over a couple of times in your mobility scooter. And obviously he's, you know, it takes him ages to type on the thing. And I'm quite good with, I'll just talk at him and then got a nice email back the next day. And yeah, it was fun.

It's a, it's a, it's a nice friendship. It's a, I love that. I love that. I love that chapter because you talk about how you sent him a letter sort of in your younger years that was mocking, but then his response back was so smart. Well, I mean, I'll tell you the story. So I sent, I sent like a letter saying, oh, you know, I've got a disabled son. And what about a play date was the gist of the letter. And it used the worst possible language to talk about disability. But it was kind of a nice, well, not a well meaning,

but it was like a comedic letter. It's quite an old, you know, device. And then he wrote back this beautiful letter. And I kept it in the show because sometimes when you're, you know, doing kind of wind up stuff or punking someone, sometimes they win and you have to include that too. Cause it's okay. It's like when someone heckles, sometimes they win. Sometimes it's just really funny. Yes. That you've got to keep that in the show as well. You can't just have you winning the whole time. I know've got the edit but so i love the idea that we kept it in and then he was so gracious and like i spoke to him about it years later and yeah i don't care fine um and laughed about it and then started coming to shows like he would come to the show in in cambridge and then i had jokes on that tour

about stephen hawking and you could see, like, the whole audience, like, as I told the joke, go, what the actual fuck? And it was, what was that? I seem to remember the joke was something about the, you know, Stephen Hawking, half man, half computer. I bet when he dies, it's a virus. Oh my God.

He's got medical insurance and Norton or McAfee, depending on where you're doing the joke. Oh, my gosh. He's a really fun bloke. Oh, my gosh, that's so funny. And he liked those jokes? Yeah. Yeah, but, I mean, of course you'd like that.

It's written about you. Why wouldn't you? It's about you, yeah. Listen, it's also that thing of, like, he went through that incredible, you know, I got to talk to him about this, that journey of, like, when something like that happens to you that he was a an able-bodied student and this thing happened to him and he went through three or four years maybe a little

bit longer of uh depression of a horrendous depression and then it's he comes out the other side and it's that thing if you go it's i don comes out the other side. And it's that thing, if you go, it's, I don't believe in an afterlife. There's a next life. I think that's the, for me, that's the more interesting thing of like, okay, so in 10 years time, it will be different. Something will have changed. Is that your dog? Someone's dog. Yeah, mine. Why not? Why not mine? I don't know if you can really own another Your dog? Yeah, mine. Why not? Why not mine? Sure. Okay. I don't know if you can really own another creature, but yeah, sure. So this is this thing that we do called the slow round,

which is mostly just memories. So, like, do you have a smell from childhood, particularly good or bad, that you still remember the smell? Yeah. I remember, I've got've got like vivid memories from childhood i grew up in a place called slough which is where the office the original office was set i remember like showing ricky and steve who wrote it around slough so they could pick out locations so the club i used to go to when i was a kid was called henry's henry the eighth bar and berlin's

bar which is in the sitcom which is like i was telling them about it. And they were going, that's ridiculous. Oh, yeah, it's a real thing. So that was like, Slough was where I grew up on this. And there was a Mars, you know, Mars, the chocolate manufacturer. There's a big, I grew up on the big industrial estate. Not a bougie area, pretty, a very working class area. Yeah.

But the world smelled of chocolate when I was a kid. Oh my gosh. Everything smelled like chocolate when I was a kid, which was... Oh my gosh. Everything smelled like chocolate when I was a kid, which was... Oh my gosh. And then my first memory is of... I was in Limerick in Ireland and I got sick with my parents. And I got meningitis.

And so my first memory is a spinal tap. And... Oh my gosh, Jesus. I was like three, and I remember it like really, like pretty distinctly. Like the whole, the thing, the doctor's voice, everything. Oh, gosh. And that was, it's a really interesting thing when I've only become a parent recently, and you kind of, you then re-remember these things

and kind of see it from your parents' point of view and go, oh, I mean, they must have been beyond worried. Oh my gosh. Yeah. Yeah. It's funny because you, you know, you just became a dad recently. My daughter's six now and it's amazing. Oh, you kept her. I think you were in two minds about it. No, because she was keeping you up at night, wasn't she? You were thinking about adoption at one stage. Have you spoken about that? Because a lot of people are embarrassed about wanting to have their own child adopted.

Oh my gosh. Alright, so okay, how did I enter this sentence before I got derailed? I'm not messing around with you, man. I haven't seen enough of you. Yeah, so I became a father for the first time

just two years ago. Yeah, so you became a father and the reason I'm saying is that a lot of people say they first understand their... They see their parents as human beings for the first time when they're about 20. For me, it was in having a child and going, oh, right.

And it's sort of similar to what you're saying now about the Spinal Tap. I have not had that experience exactly. I mean, I understand they must have been worried, but I look back on my childhood now and go, oh, my God. I'm lucky that I have any semblance of health. I'm drinking coffee now, but I've been drinking coffee since the age of three. I used to like my mother had quite milky coffee. She would give me coffee when I was three years of age. I've been drinking coffee every day since I was three. No, no, it gets

worse. The parenting gets worse. They would give me a coffee before putting me down for my afternoon nap. No. It's like you go, oh, you people are fucking crazy. You're obviously, you know, you're feeding your kid. You want your kid to be kind of healthy. You're feeding them healthy food. So, you're feeding the kid broccoli and stuff. And I was saying to my partner, I don't really like broccoli.

I don't know, cauliflower, I don't really like it. Did you have it as a kid? No. Didn't have vegetables as a kid? No. Didn't have vegetables as a kid. Yeah. Didn't have vegetables. Like, at all. Not on me. Don't worry about it.

You talk in the book about how your mother passed when you were 25, and you were estranged from your father at 25. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So it was just before 9-11 my mother died. Yeah. So it was just before 9-11, my mother died. Yeah. Which was, I think, yeah, it's a strange experience.

It's like it's all tied up with that sort of time where it really felt like the world changed then. The axis changed. Everything changed. Yeah. Was it a big decision in the book to talk about your relationship with your parents? Because I feel like it's something that... Well, the book actually came out of... There's a friend of mine wrote this book called This Is Gonna Hurt. And it's a book

about him being a doctor and his journey as a doctor. It's a really great piece. And he wrote a book for the National Health Service during the first lockdown. So he said to a bunch of us, like 20 of us, 30 of us, he said, would you write an essay about your experiences with the NHS, with the National Health Service? So I wrote a piece, like a thousand words, 2,000 words, on my mother died in a hospital called Guy's and St. Thomas's in just opposite Parliament, just opposite Big Ben. It's an amazing hospital. And my mother died there. And I wrote

about that experience of like working with the nurses and being there and being there at the end, being with someone when they die, how important that is and how uncomfortable that is. But you should be there because you're going to want someone to hold your hand when you die. And I wrote the piece and the book came out of that. I wrote it and then they published it. And then I got a call saying, I really like that. Do you want to write a book? And in the lockdown, I couldn't go, my go-to excuse was always, you know, I'm kind of busy with shows. I don't want to write a book. So thank you, but no, thank you. And then I had nothing else on. And I thought, well, it'd be really interesting

to try and be funny on the page as opposed to trying to be funny on stage. Because it's a slightly different, like there's a different tone, isn't there? Yeah, the book is a completely different tone from your shows because it's, you go into very, very serious topics like your mom passing it skillfully interweaves that with jokes and and then joke and jokes that are you know very dark and but i think

that's my experience of the world is when dark things have happened when people have died there were lighter moments there were always lighter moments There were always lighter moments. There were always little moments within that where even the worst day of your life, you laughed a little too. Was there a group growing up in school that wouldn't let you in? That it sort of like sticks in your craw? No, I don't think so.

I think there's a lovely quote about, you know, comics of being kind of the one person in the room facing the wrong way. And I think most comedians that I know had the ability to get on with the tribes, the teenage tribes. They were in lots of different ones. I was certainly in, I had my group of friends and then I had like, I was friends with

the guys that were more sporty and I was friends with the kids that were the tearaways and going to jail. And I knew all of the different groups and got on, but they got on very well with the girls. I knew all the groups. I was friends with everyone, but I never really committed fully. I was always kind of slightly, I just do my own thing. Was there a version of yourself that growing up that was inauthentically you you that you sort of cringe at thinking about? Um, no, I don't think so. I think there's, there's a, uh, I think you become aware as you grow that you are a story you tell yourself and people talk about going traveling as an incredible experience and really where you go isn't important. It's wherever you go,

there you are. And if you've ever gone traveling on your own or spent time on your own kind of, you know, anywhere, you bump into a stranger and it's like, who are you going to be? What story do you find yourself telling them to sum yourself up? And it's interesting that the way that you process the world is so much more important than what happens to you. 95% of it's how you process what happens, the story that you tell. You can wear it like, oh, there's something terrible happened to me. I suppose the most obvious example and the really tough love thing I say in the book, which is maybe a bit too tough, because I think people have had it much harder than me, but at what age do you stop blaming your parents? Yeah.

Because, you know, 15-year-olds saying, listen, I might be angry, but, you know, my father beat me, that seems pretty acceptable. A 40-year-old man saying that? Hmm. That seems like you need to get over that. Where do you draw the line? Yeah. That seems like you need to get over that. Where do you draw the line? Well, the answer is somewhere. At some stage, there's a statute of limitations on blaming stuff on the past. And you kind of go, well, you need to reinvent yourself. You need to stop telling that story.

Start telling a different story. One of the things that you say in that vein is you talk about nature versus nurture. And it's one of the smartest things I've read in a long time, which is, you go, nurture's still going. Yeah, oh yeah. You can affect nurture. You can still affect nurture today.

Well, I slightly, I come down on the side of nature, nurture, what's more important? Nature's probably more important. But there's no control in nature. Yeah, you've got no control. Those are the cards. You've got dealt those cards. But how you play it is everything. And that's the only place where we have control. And you look at all these studies of identical twins

and one did this and one did that. There's lots of famous examples where you go, wow, you guys did great. And the third one, not so much. The Nolan brothers is my favorite story. It's like Christopher Nolan does these incredible movies. His brother does Westworld, these so much. The Nolan Brothers is my favorite story. It's like the Christopher Nolan does these incredible movies. His brother does Westworld, these incredible TV. Third

brother, in prison for murder. You go, okay. Oh my gosh. Oh right, that's a real, that's the same upbringing, the same house, the same everything. That's, the nurture doesn't need to stop. It doesn't stop when you're 18. It's like, the fact, like talking to you, having you as a friend, that's nurture. That's partly, you know, you go, oh, yeah, you and Neil Brennan are good

at giving notes on shows. Yeah, it's not entirely selfless. You know, we come to your show and we watch it and we learn something and we grow as performers and we go, oh, actually, Mike's our friend that's more of a storyteller. And he's long for it. But then he can play the comedy seller and do 15 minutes of one-liners with a piece that's within the show. And you go, oh, okay, well, I need to maybe think about expanding what I'm doing or maybe talk about something in a different way. So you end up kind of going, your nurture becomes expanded by the people you hang out with. You can't beat your environment. And your environment,

like people think of that as a, it's where I'm in New York City. And you know, your environment's the people you're with. The people you're with and who you're rolling with, who you're with, who's important in your life. That's your environment's your partner. That reminds me of the fact that I stole something from you that I believe you told me you stole from Rodney

Dangerfield, which is when you're working on new jokes, you bring the cards on stage and you basically read the joke and see if it gets a laugh. And if it does, I have them right here. This is for this evening. Yeah. Yeah. Don't memorize it until you, until it's funny. And you say that in the book and it reminded me, I completely stole that from you. I hope that's okay. But I think it's okay

because you told me once that that's what Rodney Dangerfield used to do is he would show up at a club and he would read the joke off a card

or whatever and then if it got a laugh, he memorized it and did it the next night. I'm always amazed that I don't think anyone's particularly impressed by the memory feat of stand-up comedy, like remembering 300 jokes in a laugh. He memorized it and did it the next night. I'm always amazed that I don't think anyone's particularly impressed by the memory feat of stand-up comedy, like remembering 300 jokes in a row. No one in the audience is thinking, this guy, I don't find him funny,

but his memory is terrific. So I have material I'm working on. This is the part of the show where we work on new material. And if you have ideas, you can kick it around. If you have jokes you are new, you want to throw out let's let you know you know what let's do who who's got the greater need here mike i think you need my help tell me what you're thinking about i will fix it for you oh right the joke doctor will see you now please the uh what's what's what's the first bit what are you going to talk about so it's well it's funny because it's about a lot well a lot of the things you talk about in the book are about death and imagining if you were going to die in six months. And what would you

do? What would you do if you had six months to live? That really stuck with me from the book. But one of the things is that one of the things recently in my life and that I deal with in my new show I'm developing, which is called The Old Man and the Pool, is how my brother Joe suggested that my wife Jen and I write a will. And so we invited this lawyer who writes wills to come over to the house. And we'll call him Will. And your will is sort of like your actual wedding vows to have and to hold the money when you die and sickness and health. But if the sickness gets real bad, I'm going to need your pin number. And, and, and, and wills are a little bit like bills, but it's like a bill you write for your

own body. And I, I'm not good at paying bills. And so I'm definitely not good at writing wills. So that's sort of like the first chunk of it. Okay, it's a very interesting premise of going the, because I think the will is very much where the rubber hits the road in terms of the relationship. You know, you've got lots of friends and they go on the first draft, right? You go, yeah, what am I leaving to my friends?

Some happy memories. Good luck, everyone. It's like, you redefine who your family is. You redefine who your family is. A friend of mine had this great line. He said, when you close the door at night and lock the front door, who's inside the house? That's your family. Oh, that's interesting. Everyone that lives outside, those are people you used to know like even like his parents or whatever you go yeah i'm not leaving them anything it's like i'm taking care of these people that's it okay so um so one of the things that he says and this is true he goes, he goes, what happens if Mike gets hit by a bus? And I said, you know,

Jen gets the money. And he goes, what happens if you both get hit by the same bus? I go, our daughter Una gets the money. He says, who's in charge of Una? And I said, the bus driver? And then we were silent for about 40 minutes. Yeah, that's a nice, like the bus driver? Is it you, Will? Is it you? Is it you? Is it you?

I mean, the terrible thing about the you know the idea of you know yourself and your partner dying and leaving your child an orphan is you don't have an evil aunt yeah like like there should be some kind of roll doll number you could call it's an evil aunt that will put her to work great but she'll somehow triumph um i i i've I've left my kid. If something happens to me and my partner, my kid is signed over to Elon Musk. Because leave your kid to a billionaire that you've never met.

Just leave it to a billionaire. Just go, well, you know, I wanted it to be okay financially. Yeah, so I thought you'd think this is interesting. I was reading this book at my parents' house called How We Die. It's written by a doctor many years

ago. Wow, that was one of the worst gifts you ever got them. That's great. Hey, hey, Mom, dad, I got you this. No reason. You know, COVID, you're 80, I guess. You've crossed out how and when. It's written by a doctor many years ago.

And he's talking about how he dealt with people, patients who were dying. Wow. How little confidence would you have if you walked into that doctor's office and there's a signed, you know, there's a framed copy of that book on the wall, and this motherfucker doesn't seem to care. It's like, this guy's given up. It feels like that's, like, I would not want him as my family doctor. You walk in, he goes, listen, I've written a book about this. Everyone dies. Please. I know it's German measles, but nah, the kid might not make it. So, okay. So he tells this story. This really shocked me, this story. He tells this story about

how in the 50s, he has a patient who goes into cardiac arrest and the rest of the staff is dealing with another emergency. And the man on the table gasps with what they call the death rattle you mentioned in your book, the guttural sound of someone who's most likely, it's their last breath. And of course, this was a different era for treating heart attacks. So this young doctor takes a scalpel, cuts an incision in the man's chest, takes the heart in his hand and massages it, which is something doctors used to do as a last resort.

And it didn't work. The patient's dead. The guy's holding this bloody heart next to a newly dead human being. There are so many situations in life that call for the phrase, this isn't what it looks like. But I feel like this is the most appropriate one. Anyway, that's why I didn't become a doctor. Yeah, I like the line. This isn't what it looks like. I feel like that would be a thing as well with your shows

where a line like that would become a runner, would become something that comes up again. It does feel like it could be a runner. Yeah, this isn't what it looks like is kind of a great line for lots of things as well. I mean, your kid's's gonna walk in on you with a with a sleeping bag done up to there at some stage this isn't what it looks like You know, it's funny. We were talking about death and sort of dark humor,

and this is just something I wrote down. One of the first jokes I ever wrote was about death. And when I was 22, my friend's mother passed away, and I went to the funeral. And when I was taking the train back to New York, I wrote in my notebook, they handed out Kleenex at the beginning of the funeral, which I thought was cocky, as if to say, you're going to cry and cry. She's so dead. But that's how I process death, jokes, because otherwise I think I might forget why I want to live. Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, there's a theory about society that all society is,

is the obfuscation of decay. It's the obscuring of decay. The idea that we don't really, in our culture, we don't really see death. We don't really get exposed to it. You're rarely in the room with the person when they die. You're rarely kind of, like we hide it away in these special places. Whereas it used to be part of everyday life. And it gave you more of a sense of kind of urgency, I think. We all slightly think we're immortal. There's a bit of us that's like, when you're talking about the will, when you're talking about sitting with a guy,

be nice to address that idea that everyone slightly thinks, yeah, but not me, though. No, I mean, I mean, I think that's smart. Like, this is, you know, Damien Hirst has that wonderful piece, which is a shark in formaldehyde, and it's called

The Impossibility of Dying in the Eyes of the Living. Yeah. There's another thing that was called I Can't Imagine a World Without Me. And I think a lot of people had that because you go, that line of people think you're the center of the universe.

And you go, yeah, from where I'm calling from, I sure am. Yes. That's very smart. You have a great line in your book where you say, if you think that people are living in your world, you might end up being very unhappy.

If you think you're living in everyone else's world, that's a better path. Yeah, I mean, I don't like the odds if you think people are living in your world. And we've all met people like that, that are just angry because it's 7 billion to one. And they're just, they're trying to mold the world to them rather than acceptance seems to be the first step for everything. You just, you see how things are right now. You accept how things are. They don't always have to be that way.

Everything's changing, but you have to accept how things are now to get anywhere. It's like that famous old joke about the, you know, how do you get to accept how things are now to get anywhere. It's like that famous old joke about the, you know, how do you get to whatever? How do you get to Boston? I wouldn't start from here. That's a great joke. I wouldn't start from here. Oh, that's great. You have it. First of all, you have an encyclopedic memory for just jokes. My God. I treat this like a job, Mike. I suggest you do similar.

All right. So this is the final thing I'll run by you. But I think, first of all, that's a great point you're making about the will. There's an existential question about the will, which is it makes you think oh my gosh what happens if i'm not on this planet if i'm not in this existence you know i think it's like it's that thing of like as a comedian as a guy you're thinking this is like a fun parlor

game but i'm not actually gonna die because right you know because you know because i'm the star You know. Because, you know, because I'm the star. I'm the star of this story. Yeah, yeah. You think you're the guy giving a will called Will. We didn't even bother with a name for you. That's right.

No, it's interesting. Yeah, so, okay, so this is another part of the will. We'll end on this. This is another part of the will. Literally, the section is called pets. I looked this up with people giving their inheritance to their animals. I read about a four-year-old stray in Italy who inherited $13 million from its owner. The article said the cat's newfound riches include cash as well as properties in Rome, Milan, and Calabria.

It says that initially the woman instructed her attorneys to, quote, identify an animal welfare association to leave her cat, Tommaso, but then unable to find a satisfactory association, left her money to the cat via her nurse, Stefania. First of all, this Stefania character is very suspicious. Second of all, I wanted to call this poor woman before she died and say, hey, I'm great with cats. Of course.

I mean, it reminds me I wrote a bit recently about dementia it's such a cruel disease, dementia my grandmother doesn't even remember changing her will and signing everything over to me. It's sad, isn't it? Oh, that's

so funny. I think that's really, like, leaving everything to your pet. Here's what I would say would be an interesting thing for me. What is the most inappropriate organization that you could leave your money to? Because your will is read in public. There's a public reading of your will

and yours will be reported on. You know, you're kind of a celebrity, right? So it'll be somewhere. Someone will report on your will. Mike Babiglia survived, he left his will, he left, what's the worst charity

you could leave it to? Right. The Association for Japanese Whalers. Oh my God. Well, I guess. I guess he had an interest in hunting and killing whales.

Yes. The fraternity of rare game hunters. I think that'd be a fun thing to think about. It's what your legacy. So to think about your legacy and what you leave behind when you go is interesting. That thing about death, I was thinking about it recently because my friend died. And I was thinking about that thing of you die twice. You die when you die, and you die the last time someone says your name.

Yeah. And it's mirrored it's in Carousel actually the musical, the idea that you die, you go on the last time someone says your name so your heritage what you're leaving, your legacy is your work yeah

and then what else you leave is kind of, it sort of doesn't matter. I love this conversation. One of the things that my takeaway, I feel like for the listeners in terms of, one of the things about this podcast, working it out is that it's a fly on the wall

to a conversation between comedians, figuring out what a piece of writing is gonna be before it's formed, before it's done. And one of the things I love about your process and whenever you come to my shows or I come to your shows is that we ask a lot of questions. Like you asking me that question is spurring my brain a lot and going like, oh yeah, that's a question I should ask myself. That's a question I should ask myself. And a lot of times the answers are the jokes. Yeah. And, you know, I think dealing with acceptance of the reality as a standing point

for the jokes, because actually, if you die and your partner dies and Una's left an orphan, what she doesn't need is money. What she needs is love. And you can't leave that love behind. And you go, it's, you know, that kind of, there's a heartbreak to that, there's a melancholy to that, of going, I won't be there to give her what she needs. It's a poor substitute. Because, you know, what does the money represent? You know, if you could wish for anything for your child, what would it be? I talk about this in the book.

You know, you go, for me, it would be likability. It's the one thing. If you could give a child a gift, it makes life easier. So the final segment of the show is called Working Out for a Cause. And if there's an organization that you like to contribute to, I will contribute to them, and then I'll link them in the show notes and encourage others to. Yes, it's St. Mary's Center Community Trust. smcyouthwork.org.

It's kind of the kids that cause a lot of the crime and are the victims of a lot of the crime, local gangs. And there's a huge knife crime problem in London. And these guys do just tremendous work working with the kids, working out disputes. So they have like a 24-hour-a-day, every day of the year hotline. And the guys know that they can call, they can trust them, they can talk to them, and they prevent murders. They prevent people from getting seriously hurt. That's incredible. So yeah, that's a great local charity. So I'm going to contribute to them, and I'm going to link them in the show notes. And Jimmy, this has been wildly helpful, and I'm so glad I was able to read your book. It's a phenomenal book.

Thank you so much. Congratulations. Well, thank you very much. I very much enjoyed reading it, and I enjoyed writing it. Actually, I did kind of enjoy reading it. I had to read it again to do the audio book, and there's a strangest experience where you're rereading your own work and going, I agree with all of this. Such a good point. That's going to do it for another episode of Working Out with Jimmy Carr.

Jimmy Carr is at Jimmy Carr on Instagram, at Jimmy Carr on Twitter. at Jimmy Carr on Twitter. Definitely pick up his book. I love his book. It's one of my favorite books I've ever read on the subject of comedy, and I'm obsessed with books in that genre. Our producers of Working It Out are myself, along with Peter Salamone and Joseph Birbiglia,

consulting producer Seth Barish, sound mix by Kate Belinsky with help from Joel Robby, sound recordist Parker Lyons, associate producer Mabel Lewis. Special thanks to my consigliere, Mike Berkowitz, as well as Marissa Hurwitz and Josh Upfall. As always, a special thanks to Jack Antonoff and Bleachers for their music.

And to my wife, the poet J-Hope Stein, our book, The New One, which might make a perfect holiday gift, is in your local bookstore. As always, a special thanks to my daughter, Una, who created a radio fort. And thanks most of all to you who have listened, who are writing these nice reviews on Apple Podcasts

and giving us a few stars. Tell your friends, tell your enemies. We're working it out. We'll see you next time, everybody.