Mike Birbiglia's Working It Out - 66. David Cross: Fully Committed Dad

Episode Date: February 21, 2022

This week Mike welcomes David Cross, who is a legend in comedy and also makes cameos in Mike’s dreams. The two comics discuss the origins of Mr. Show, why Tobias from Arrested Development is so different from David himself, and how sometimes it’s hard to be an optimistic dad when the reality in front of you doesn’t feel so optimistic. Plus Mike and David tell each of their sides of the story of the most awkward moment ever between Mike, Mike’s mom, and an entire live audience. Please consider donating to: American Civil Liberties Union

you have 135 IMDb credits and the joke, and the joke, there's a punchline here. There's a punchline here. Um, but you also, and not listed on IMDb appear in my dreams. Okay.

There's three comedians. You're one of three comedians, David Letterman and Jerry Seinfeld who appear in my dreams. I'm not getting, I'm not getting. Wow. That's to criticize my comedy. Initially. I'm not getting to criticize my comedy. Initially, I thought you were going to lobby IMDb to include that on their listings.

Oh, yeah, they should. Maybe somebody could pull that off. Hey, everybody. We are back with a new episode of Working It Out. We are so excited about our guest today, David Cross. A couple things before we get going. We just announced a show. I'm doing my tour,

The Old Man in the Pool, in Washington, D.C. after people shouting at me at the internet. Meanwhile, I was always planning to come. Come see me in Charlotte. There's still tickets left in Charlotte. Special guests, Atsuko Akatsuka, Indianapolis, Dallas, Chicago.

I'm doing four weeks at the Steppenwolf. We just announced five weeks in Los Angeles at the Taper Theater, which is a gorgeous theater in Los Angeles. Of course, I'll be in London. We are adding a third show in London. And then Paris and Iceland. Today on the show, we have David Cross.

David Cross has a new stand-up comedy special out this month called I'm From the Future. And it's now available internationally through his website, official David cross.com. David is someone who I've admired for so long, and is so absolutely committed to whatever he's doing, whether he's doing his own stand up special, or he's starring in the increasingly poor decisions of Todd Margaret, or he's co-creating and starring and writing on Mr. Show, which is essentially one of the seminal sketch comedy shows of all time. And, of course, his role as Tobias on Arrested Development.

David and I have a really funny run-in many years ago. I've known him for a long time, but we had a funny run-in that we talk about today. It's very awkward, but also very fun and funny, and maybe he'll end up being a storyteller on stage or something eventually. So I hope you enjoy my conversation with the great David Cross. you and i have similar age children my daughter's six and a half and yours is almost five and it's

like at a certain point like you do have this mix of like you're a cynical person like you're a comedy writer for god's sakes and like you've that's what makes you great you're you you have a critical eye for i think you even make this joke in the special of like yeah i'm cynical because i'm looking around yeah but you also want to have optimism on behalf of your child yeah, I touch on that a little bit in Oh, Come On, and then in the latest special that you can't, it's unfair and selfish to be cynical around your kids. And I've caught myself a couple times where she'll ask me a question and, or make a statement that I, question and or make a statement that I, my immediate response is jokey and that joke is rooted in cynicism and about what the world's like. It's not really like that kid, you know, or whatever the thing is. And I have to bite my tongue and I can't say anything and I don't say

anything. I just keep it to myself. But there's so, I find myself, I'm not a good liar. I don't like lying. I don't even like exaggerating. I don't like when my friends exaggerate. I mean, to a point, to like people, it's annoying to people and I get it. I get why I'm annoying where I won't let you exaggerate. And it's a fault. It's a problem I've had since I was young. I think it's because, you know, my wife speculates that it's because my dad was a pathological liar. And I just, I can't take, like, I won't let you, like, if you and I experienced something and we were having a conversation with somebody and you're like, oh man, it was, we had, it was, it was really cold and we had to walk. It was, it was like, it was like,

We had, it was, it was really cold and we had to walk. It was, it was like, it was like, it was like freezing. And, and we, and I think that, you know, we had to walk like two and a half miles to the restaurant and be like, no, it was like 40 degrees. And it was like a mile. And it doesn't matter why nobody cares. And it doesn't, I, first of all, but I would also say, I don't know why you're exaggerating. Nobody gives a shit whether it was 32 degrees, 40. Why are you adding, you know, and why are you adding a mile and a half to the walk? It's still like, but I'm that asshole. So that is to say that it's hard for me to constantly lie to this kid, you know? I have the same thing. I mean, my wife and I both, Jen and I both have a thing where we had a parent who really stressed holidays it was really important to them Christmas Thanksgiving whatever and both of us are like fuck holidays yeah you know now that you have a kid no but now we do it for her we do it we do it for her. We do it for her. Same here, same here. Yeah, yeah.

Dude, I celebrate Christmas. I was brought up Jewish and, I mean, reformed. It was never really that important, but it was important to my mom, the basic big holidays, doing Passover and having the Seder and doing Hanukkah and lighting candles, all that stuff. And now she lights the candles and she has a Christmas tree. Yeah. You know, I think I was in Aspen comedy festival in like 2000, I want to say like two or three. And that's where, that's where you, that's where you were, you started doing standup in Aspen, the great, uh, it's such a comedy town, right? That's where you got your start in the first four years you were an Aspen.

Cut your teeth. I grew up. Yeah, no, I was raised in the, I did, I did yachts in the summers and I did skiing in the winters and it's a great circuit. Both of those are great circuits, but it was, uh, no, no, I, I, it was funny cause I was, I was, I was a young comic, early twenties and, and, and I went skiing. I was at this festival and I i got i went skiing and they were and i i got a phone like a phone call on the slopes like they want you to be on bob and david's show they're hosting and oh wow yeah and it was a huge deal for me like i i don't even think i knew

you at the time and it was like it was and i was so nervous and i and i drank before i went on stage and that does not seem like you at all it's not like me at all it's pure nerves but then combination of the elevation oh yeah and the and the drink made me sort of like sort of terrible and uh but it was uh i thought you were going to get the funniest human in history. But the way that you hosted with Bob, it's a very one of a kind way that you approach it, which is it's sort of like there's audience plants and it's sort of a deconstruction of hosting. And in some ways is sort of the DNA of what Mr. Show was, which is like you're, some ways is sort of the DNA of what Mr. Show was, which is like you're hosting a thing in this odd way and it sort of becomes sketches.

Well, I mean, partly, yeah. And Bob, I saw Bob's, before I really knew him very well, I saw his one-man show, which also had Andy Dick doing some stuff in it, but he was doing it at the old, it was a theater in Santa Monica, not the upfront, but it was, that might've been the upfront. I don't know. This would have been back in 90, before Mr. Show, so 94, maybe 93, something like that.

I had just come to LA and we had worked on the Ben Stiller show. We were not closed. He was actually kind of rude to me, and then I saw his show, and I was like, oh, shit. There's a lot of similar elements to my sensibility about putting a show together, which I had cross-comedy as a reference,

and he certainly had those elements too. And so those two things together, you know, married very well to make Mr. Show is what it was. I was watching the CBS This Morning piece that they did on you a couple of years ago. And they interviewed Bob and it really was heartwarming. It's like one of the more heartwarming things I've ever seen in a comedy story,

which is that they're like, how long do you think you'll collaborate with David? And he goes, I think till we die. Like, he's like, I don't see us ever not collaborating. I was like,

you never see that. You don't see it with bands. You don't see it with anybody. It's what we have is, is very special for sure. And, uh, you know,

we both feel the same way. And the, the success I think is just sort of respecting and uh you know we both feel the same way and the the success i think is just sort of respecting and listening to each other and really listening to each other and occasionally one person you know you feel very very strongly and you and another person feels somewhat strongly about the the opposite way but the person who feels very strongly, and if you can sell it, kind of wins. That's never going to be the thing that drives a wedge in us. And we're actually doing something, Bob and I and his brother Bill. It's not a done deal, so I can't go too much into it, but we're going to be doing something for an up-and-coming streaming network thing.

And we have a limited series in the work. It'll be eight episodes, and it's not a sketch show. It's a story, but it's really cool. It's very funny, and just the process of, we haven't been able to be in the same room, unfortunately, but as we've been developing it, and a lot of this came when I was stuck in Toronto for six months and truly stuck, you know, COVID over the last winter, end of the summer. And it was a deeply depressing, difficult time. And those hour, hour and a half, two hours that we would spend, you know, once every 10, 12 days on a Zoom

coming up with ideas. I mean, it was, you know, life-saving. I just haven't been able to laugh that much. I mean, they, I mean, they're just, that process I missed too. I missed doing stand-up. The other thing that I missed that was like palpable was being in a writer's room. Yeah. And just sitting around and, you know, there's a lot of difficult times and frustrating things

where you're like, how does this character get here if it's closed and it's sunday and his car won't start you know all those things that are pains in the asses to figure out in the writer's room but just the fun part of before you have all that other responsibility of coming up with joke beats and things and with two of the funniest guys you know is just i mean what a treat yeah so in this sort of lineage of sketch comedy in the last few decades, there was this thing that came up where Chappelle, a couple years ago, he tried to burn Key and Peele

and was like, oh, you took my format or whatever. It's like doing a monologue into sketches. I'm like, you saw Mr. Show, right? Like in the 90s? Well, that wasn't even Mr. Show. I mean, other people did monologue. Carol Burnett, you saw Mr. Show, right? Like in the 90s? Well, that wasn't even Mr. Show. I mean, other people did monologue. Carol Burnett, right? Yeah.

Carol Burnett started with the monologue. It's a very old form, right? Yeah. No, Key and Peele were, I mean, was the last really great sketch show. I think so, too. It's unbelievable. Yeah, they were amazing. Completely holds up.

Yeah, absolutely. When you and Bob were coming up with that, was Carol Burnett, what were the models there? Well, we came up with Carol Burnett. Nobody knows this. We were very, very young. That was brilliant. I was five and Bob was seven, I believe. And then we came up with Key and Peele.

We do a thing on the show called the slow round. So like, do you have a smell that you remember from childhood that it's really good or really bad? Sure. I mean, my Rolodex is spinning out, I'm trying to think. So I used to swim, like competitive swimming. Oh, no kidding, really? Yeah, yeah. Wow.

From when I was like 5 to 14, I think. And I was good. I mean, I went to state invitationals I, you know, went to state invitationals and junior AU and all kinds of stuff, but I would have practice at this place. I think it was in Connecticut. I moved around quite a bit when I was a kid and the smell of the chlorine which was uh a very very potent uh strong i would i would guess perhaps deadly uh chlorine because i've certainly smelled chlorine before but i remember it and i remember being like you know you have to go rinse off and shower and stuff. And then being in my, and I had a little bag with all my wet shit in it and a towel and stuff. And being out there still kind of wet in like a, you know, half puffy jacket kind of thing and waiting for my mom to pick me up.

And there was a vending machine. And if I didn't have any money, I had skinny, long enough arms, probably just right at that age. Any younger, I wouldn't have been able to reach it. Any older, my arm would have been too big, but I was at that sweet spot year where I could get my arm up and into where the Skybar was and get it,

and I would always steal a Skybar. So I'm gonna go with the specifically over-chlorinated smell. Oh, my gosh. It's so funny. My new show that I'm touring with is called The Old Man and the Pool. And it's about how I go to the YMCA pool as a kid. And it's all I think about is the smell of chlorine.

And I say, like, I don't know what the hell kind of heinous crime they were covering up with that chlorine. Wow, that's wild. Yeah, there was like a mob hit in the middle of the night. They're like, do we dig a ditch or do we bring the body down to the YMCA? I got a family membership. And it's like, but that chlorine. And I even talk about the snack machine room with the coffee maker that also makes soup.

Dude, we're on a psychic wavelength. Do you have a memory of a version're on a psychic wavelength do you ever do you have a memory of a version of yourself in your life that was inauthentically yourself and you're cringe thinking oh god uh yeah i mean i i certainly had uh i i would put it i would chalk it up as trying too hard and again i moved around a lot um Um, so I was, I was the new kid a lot, but I was never truly cool enough to be like, cause I had these kind of underlying punk aesthetics, but I was never cool enough to, or confident enough to just do it, to just, you know, uh, shave my head or do, do, do anything like do the things that, and, uh,

I did have that kind of a new wave period when I was a, uh, I guess a junior and senior in high school where I had a pork pie hat and it had a bunch of buttons on it and, uh, like band named buttons. And, um, and I had this chartreuse jacket I had gotten from Trash and Vaudeville in New York city on St. Mark's, and I had a skinny tie. But I only halfway did it. You know what I mean? I didn't fully commit. And there was a period where when I moved, I was born in Georgia, and then I moved to Florida and lived there, and then I lived in a bunch of places in Connecticut and New York, and then moved back to Georgia, in Roswell, Georgia, when I was nine. And I swore I wouldn't have any Southernisms be a part of my DNA.

Like, I fought it, and I, and, you – and to my own detriment, like I wouldn't eat barbecue for – barbecue is truly probably my favorite food. Wow. And I spent five, six years like I don't want fucking ribs. Right. Because I was just some stupid kid who was like I don't want to be southern or whatever. So all that kind of stuff. I never – I fought any kind of Southern, uh, language, uh, idioms or any of those things. And, and certainly didn't have an accent. And, uh, but after I'd say

by around the time I was 13, maybe, uh, I found myself dipping and went for real and uh do you remember you mean tobacco tobacco yeah yeah um like chew yeah there's a red man and wintergreen or whatever oh yeah fucking i used to do that stuff yeah and there was a uh skull and copenhagen dip oh yeah and then there was the chew the chewing tobacco bringing it all back because i you know this is for me i'd forgotten about this for 20 years or whatever yeah and then the jacket the sleeveless puffy jackets oh god yeah and uh and um a big belt buckle i don't know if that was ever did that i never did that no the big belt buckle and uh you know and you dip with or you chew with your cup, your red cup and spit into it. And I, it didn't last very long, but there was like a good, you know, three, four months,

you know, and riding your BMX bike up, you know, building homemade ramps and jumping stuff. Oh, yeah. And it was so not me. It's so not me. But it was, you know, I mean, what were you going to do? You were in Roswell in the 70s. But you know what's funny about you is, like, you talk about being, like,

half committed to these personas or whatever it is. When I think about your comedy, I literally think of commitment. Like, it's the thing. Like, I remember seeing you in Comic Relief in the 90s do this thing with Bob where, like, you do an improv game, and it seems like it's an improv game, and then you're basically tricking him into being completely naked in, like, Radio City Music Hall.

And it was insane. Like, I was there live, and I was like, this is the craziest piece of stagecraft I've ever seen ever. It was really fun. We did that a couple times. And certainly nobody expects him to be. And he is naked. 100% naked.

He's completely naked. Completely naked. And then I'll tell you the funniest thing about that. After we did that bit, which again, we've done live, we had done it a number of times, but we did that and it cut to Whoopi Goldberg. It threw to Whoopi Goldberg to introduce the next thing. And her comment after that, after we did that crazy bit was she kind of shook her head and rolled her eyes and went, I must be getting old. No.

Yeah. Yes. No. Oh, you've got to be kidding me. Well, I have a visitor. Aw. Oh, thank you. Wait, what does it say?

It's for you and Mommy. Aw. Love, Mommy and Daddy. Is that a race car? Uh-huh. Wait, what does it say? It's for you and Mommy. Aw. Love Mommy and Daddy. Is that a race car? Uh-huh. Oh, nice. And it's a rose? And there's a whole bunch of roses.

That's not a rose. Oh, it's not a rose. It's a stop sign. Oh, it's a stop sign. Oh, yeah, it's there. I don't have my glasses on. You're right. I can see it right there.

Oh, that's beautiful. Thank you so much, sweetheart. Here, why don't you say hi to Mike? Hang on a second. Hey. My name's Mike. I you so much, sweetheart. Here, why don't you say hi to Mike. Hang on a second. Hey. My name's Mike. I'm a friend of your dad's, and I think he's fantastic. Do you know what fantastic means?

Yeah. What does it mean? It means that it's awesome. It's awesome. Oh, it's awesome. Yeah, yeah, exactly. That's a kid's fantastic. All right. Well, thank you very much for that picture. Thank you very much, it's awesome. Yeah, yeah, exactly. That's a kid's fantastic.

All right. Well, thank you very much for that picture. Thank you very much, sweetheart. Bye. Mike's going to compliment me some more, okay? I feel like to this day, my wife, Jen, and I reference your Ginsburg and I'm not there. And like, because you really feel like you're like channeling ginsburg in a certain way thanks i yeah that was uh um well then i did my homework yeah yeah then it worked yeah good it's amazing and then like

and then like on arrested development you play tob, who couldn't be farther from what you're like. I know. Like, he is completely unaware of himself. And I would describe you, you know, for better or worse, as completely aware of yourself. Like, you're hyper-focused. A little too aware. A little too self-aware, meaning also too self-centered.

Yes. focused a little little too aware yeah self aware meaning also too self-centered um yes uh i'm the um i'm the son of my world um yeah i mean well that's the that's the fun of doing those those roles you know yeah and it's i and i mean few things have been more fun than playing Tobias. Also, the writing was so much fun. And they wrote to some of my strengths, too, which was nice. Like, you know, pretty quickly they let me be physical and then started incorporating that into the script. So that was fun. I feel like as an actor, you're not judging him as a character. Like you're, you actually, I feel,

does it make you understand people who are, who are less self-aware by playing that part? I mean, I'd like to say yes, but not, I think the whole thing is in such a heightened world, you know, where, where no one is normal, like the cops and the doctors and the newscasters are all a little silly. Yeah. And if the rest of the world was more grounded, I probably would, you know.

Yes. But it's just a – it's really fun and it's one of the few things I've gotten to do where you kind of have an idea of who the character is, and you sort of find it as you're doing the first, certainly the pilot and the first couple episodes. And then by the time you're doing season four, you're like, oh, I got this. I know exactly. It's like putting on an old coat. Yeah. it's it's like putting on an old coat yeah and uh um it's kind of fun to just get into to that headspace and then also working with such a uh talented cast too you know um but i i can't i

wouldn't say i i guess i've never thought of that yeah that's how self-centered i am um what's the best piece of advice that you've ever received that you used? Oh, I can say I've received a lot, but the absolute best was when Amber was pregnant with Marlo. And I was new dad, first dad, first time dad. And I was doing a show with Jon Stewart and he gave me the best advice, which is, and I think of it almost daily, never take anything personally. Oh, that's interesting. And I have thought about it, as I said, almost daily. There's cause to think of it almost daily.

I've seen other people take a child's behavior personally. It's hard not to do sometimes. It's really hard not to do. But I think of that all the time. And then another piece of advice, again, this is, but I want to pass it to you because it's so smart, again this is uh but i want to pass it to you because it's such it's so smart is bob said when he was raising his kids he would always use synonyms without really saying that's what he was doing sure um so that their vocabulary would expand yes that's a very natural way so so i you know um or even using opposites too i do that with Marlo all the time, you know, like, uh, um, well, he, he's very angry. He's upset, you know, something as simple as that and always trying to find a synonym for those things. But those two pieces of advice, uh, I use

daily. Yeah. I think that's really, really smart. And the first one, I just wanted to mention so that I could say that I'm friendly with Jon Stewart. That's hilarious. That's the, that's really, if you're going to find a moral in that story, it's, that's what I want you to walk away with. okay so i told you i was going to bring this up. So a few years ago, you and I did a show in Texas together where you hosted and you introduced me to the stage.

And you told a story that I've been holding in for years and years and years, which is, I don't, I wouldn't, I would never in a million years tell this without your permission but if you're okay with it i think it's a really funny story oh yeah it's great and and what was so great was our two perspectives yes uh so yeah okay i'll tell mine i'll tell mine so basically 2008 i'm doing sleepwalk with me which is like my first solo show. And it was like Nathan Lane presented. It was like a really like, it was like a seminal moment where I went

from being like someone who could be a comedian to someone who could have my own show and sit it and that kind of thing. And I was going to be on The View the next day and my mom loves The View. And it was like a big deal. Like it was, it was, so my mom came to the show because the next day I was going to be on The View. And that night, Joy Behar from The View came to the show because I was going to be on the next day

so she wanted to see it. And it just so happened I did this segment every week, like every Wednesday, where it would be a guest like you or Janine Garofalo did it, Zach Galifianakis did it. We'd do a thing called an awkward 10 minutes with Mike after the show and we would just sort of tell stories back and forth. And it was just sort of like this very loose segment. And my mom's in

the audience and Joy Behar's in the audience. And I say, please welcome to the stage, David Cross. The show is over at this point. People are still in the audience. Please welcome to the stage, is over at this point people are still the audience please welcome to the stage jay lacrosse you come up and i say to you i go you know my mom is here tonight and she has never seen this show and so i was nervous about her being here and uh and to my memory you said, oh, yeah, you were saying, like, she's a cunt, right? And I said, no, no. And this speaks to the level of commitment you have to a bit, no matter how subversive it is. The moment I went the direction I went, which is, oh, no, you went for the jugular. You were just like, no, no, like you went into detail. You were literally like, no, no, you were saying to me earlier

that she's a cunt. And then you talk in the show about how she's a cunt. Like you just elaborate, you went like, okay, here's the game of the scenes. Like all the ways in which she's a cunt. I was like, actually, uh, well, you know, I don't think I don kind i was like actually uh well you know i don't think i don't see it that way and you know it made me the more the funnier it got to you the more it made up me uncomfortable and then oh my god and then i and then i felt so bad for my mom she's not a fan of comedy she's not a fan of my comedy. She doesn't know who you are. She doesn't even know much about my comedy. And then after the show, I go, hey, Mom.

I go, did you like the show? She goes, yeah, I liked the show. I didn't like that last part. I didn't like that last part. I like that. It almost implies like, well, that's part of the show. That's part of the show. That's what you do every week.

You have a guy come up. Literally the next day on The View, Joy Behar says, I liked the show a lot. I didn't like that last part with David Cross. She also didn't understand it. So my mom and Joe very very both didn't understand it. And what was amazing about it is like, is like as a comedian and an improviser and a fan of yours,

I was loving every second of it. But as the human being of myself, I was like, this is the worst case scenario it's uh yeah you have mixed emotions it's uh um i so i don't know if i told you this uh because i i don't have i didn't have any of that uh perspective at all i i knew i was going to do this thing. And I'm not sure. Did I know your mom was there? I don't know if I did. That was the first thing I said to you.

But I don't think you knew previously. I think even when I said it to you, I don't even think you knew if it was real or a bit or whatever. Right, right. I just knew. I think I really took the word awkward as a... It was called an awkward 10 minutes with Mike.

Yeah, it's like an edict. Yes. As a, like, I'm supposed to make it awkward. And I thought, well, how, you know, this should be about as awkward as it gets. Yes. And then you're right. It was, if I had no choice but to commit to it. Right.

Otherwise, it would have collapsed. It would have felt, I think the audience would have felt a little terrible. At least I was the bad guy. At least I was the fate. You're the heel. You're in wrestling. It's called the heel. Which is fine.

But if I hadn't done that, it would have just been like a different kind of awkward and not anything anybody could enjoy. But at least they could enjoy. And I think I was, I wouldn't say I was visibly or noticeably drunk, but I had had probably four beers at that point. Yes. So I was loose. I would say I was a little loose. And, you know, as you put it, it's my comic tendency. And it was like, well, it's not my mom.

Let's go. Oh, yeah. And also you are – another thing that makes it special is you are truly and known as one of the nicest guys in comedy. You're a genuinely nice, sweet, caring person. And you don't, you know, you're not somebody who, it's antithetical to your type of comedy. Yeah. So that's, all those things combined, I was like,

oh, I know what I'll do. Oh my God. And I did, and I mean this sincerely, I did feel bad. I carried that around for a little bit. Like, I thought, God, I hope he's not truly upset with me. Because it was kind of relentless, you know? Yes. It was, there was an early opportunity to go, no, no, no, I'm kidding.

I'm so sorry, Ms. Birbiglia, you know, I could have done that and I didn't. And I doubled down and then just went, so I felt kind of like, oh boy. Um, and, and am I going to be able to justify it with like, Hey man, you told me it was awkward. Uh, but yeah. Yeah. The moment we got off stage, you were like, was that cool? Like, you literally, like, nothing, like, as though, like, yeah, that was a bit, now we're in life. Yeah, right, right. Oh, my gosh.

I have maybe, like, a couple jokes that I was going to just run by you because the Working It Out show. And if you have anything, you're welcome to throw it in as well. But I just came across this this week, which is the Stanford – there's this controversial famous study called the Stanford Marshmallow Experiment. That was about sort of delayed gratification where a child was offered a marshmallow or a pretzel given the option of having two marshmallows 15 minutes later. So I'm reading about the study and I'm just thinking, I'm so hungry. I thought if I could just finish this article, I'm going to reward myself with a marshmallow. Or I could just have one right now.

I mean, literally, what's stopping me other than my own pride? That's the whole joke. That's all I have have i was just free associating on the marshmallow experiment this week yeah i'd lose it hilarious you don't even you think it's a non-starter you don't even think it's like uh like spend some time with it no i uh i just said that to be funny. That's funny. I think there's something that the whole thing is about. Delayed gratification. Yes, this thing now, but it's more than delayed gratification. It's delayed gratification with a bonus. Because the experiment was you can have one marshmallow now.

Or two later. Or two if you wait 15. So maybe there's a way to make it so that the audience can have one punchline now. Oh, that's nice. Or two punchlines later. Oh, that's really fun. Or two punchlines now and four punchlines later. Oh, I really like that. And then you'd have to find the way to bring it back around because they'll forget.

Or maybe you keep delaying it so and it's under the auspices it feels like you haven't figured out the what the so it's gonna be one punch line now or two punch lines later and then you get to 15 minutes later maybe even set your alarm and you haven't figured it out yeah so you go okay you can have two punch lines now or four punch lines later and use no matter what they do you go, okay, so we'll do it in 15 minutes. We'll do four punchlines. And then this is where the real work comes in. You have to figure out a kind of a closing bit that has eight sequential building upon themselves punchlines that sound like punchlines for the marshmallow delayed. Oh, I love that.

That's great. Almost like, you know, joke writer punchlines. It's funny. You know what that came out of? I was just doing research on it. Cause I think like thematically what my show is developing into is posing this question about myself, which is like, I'm in middle age and I keep having these like issues with like my breathing. Like I don't breathe. You know, I failed the pulmonary test and I ended up a few years ago I had type 2 diabetes. I reversed it. But like I just struggle with all these things.

And it's like this thing where it's like it asks this question, why do we make the wrong decisions when we know what the right decisions are? And so, and yeah. That's about, you know, lack of willpower and wanting the satisfaction now and you justify it, you know, somehow justify it. And then when you get to that thing, like, oh, I have to, now I have to have, I have to, I can't eat eggs and cheese anymore, or I have to have two root canals or whatever the thing is. I don't know. It's, it, it, it clearly shows you the makeup of who you are, that how far you're willing to do that and how,

how far you're willing to go to prevent it, you know? Do you feel like you think about that question a lot? Yeah, I mean, in more of a vague sense, sure. Yeah. I, like, I know that I drink more than I should. I am not an alcoholic, but I, and when I get to points where I'm like, oh man, I, I, I'm drinking too much. I need to take a couple of days off and I can, and I do, and I don't like it. It's actually, I shouldn't say I don't like it. I just don't, I get, you know, uh, I, I sit there

and go, why am I not drinking again? This is day three. And, you know, which is the justification that somebody would use. Why am I not drinking again? And I feel like it's the one thing where I'm like, I need to, this is justification. Yeah, yeah, of course. This is my brain coming up with the thing that allows me to keep drinking is, I know, I'll let it

get so bad, I'll have no choice but to stop. Oh, that's interesting. That's a thing that I thought without the laughing part, which is absurd. It's childish. It's immature. It's certainly impractical. It's childish. It's immature. It's certainly impractical. But yeah, this idea like I'll just let it go as if nothing bad would happen between that thought and then having to go into rehab or something. Right. I'll just have five marshmallows.

Yeah. And then I'll know that that's definitely too many marshmallows. Yeah. And then I'll know. And then I'll stop having marshmallows for two weeks. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do you have any bits that you're working on that are sort of half-baked or in early stages? I got tons. Okay. Okay.

This isn't really a bit yet. I did it once on stage, and all my writing, unfortunately, for better or worse, is done on stage. And sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. But it's the idea of that we should put Trump on the penny because it would make, because it would be the ultimate kind of practical joke diss because he would go like – and it's perfect for Trump and it's like he's on American money. Like he's made it. But it's – nobody likes pennies. Right. Everybody hates them.

People even throw them away. Yeah, practically garbage. Yeah, they're garbage. But he would still go like, I'm on the penny. And he couldn't get upset. So he, to him, he'd be like, look, I made it. I love that. I'm on the penny. And everybody else would be like, of course Trump's on the penny. He's worthless. He's worth a penny. He's not, I would rather have coupons. Let's put Trump on coupons. So it was this thing that I just couldn't find.

Yes. But it was that idea. Oh, I like that. This is not something I have done yet, but it's always lurking in the back of my mind because my wife is much more romantic than I am. My wife is much more romantic than I am. I know it because she mentions it a lot, but her ideal situation, scenario is breakfast in bed. Yeah. And to me, that's outrageously awful.

I hate the idea. I don't understand at all the attraction to waking up and just having food in front of you and then it's just it's just goes against every fiber yes yes like um and i and it's and i i don't want to judge but i can't help judge like that's the laziest fucking most subritic thing i can think of. And, but, you know, if I'm going to make this romantic gesture, I have to just, you know, do it. You have to imagine it, yeah. You know, it's,

the act of it is just so disgusting and abhorrent to me. I don't know, I don't know. This is something like if I was on stage, I would be riffing, you know. I relate to her. In your story, i relate to her in your story i relate to her i think breakfast in bed is an amazing feeling and the reason why i'm just visualizing we will we will ask we will ask the commenters on social media which way they go thumbs up or thumbs down, for breakfast in bed.

I'm pro-breakfast in bed partly because, okay, so you're just waking up. You're just coming into the consciousness of your day, and then you have on your taste buds coffee, which I love, or toast, which I love, or whatever it is, like butter, French toast, whatever it is. It seems like— So maybe I should wake her up by pouring coffee in her mouth. Sure. There would be no bridge there.

Yeah, yeah. You'd wake up to coffee. Scalding coffee all over her body. Not scalding, not scalding. And shoving a croissant in there, like open up. And I understand waking up and being like, and then almost immediately you've got this great tray of food. But why can't you wait like 20 seconds and just,

you can put a robe on and move over to the table, no? The last thing that we do is called Working It Out for a Cause. And if you have a group organization that you think is doing a good job, I will donate to them and then I'll link to them in the show notes. I would say right now, I kind of go back and forth, but I always come back to these guys.

But the ACLU is, over the years, is one of the ones I keep going back to because it's just so, they do so much good work for you know it's hard and quite often thankless well I'm gonna I'm gonna donate to the ACLU and I'm gonna link to them in the show notes and encourage other people to uh to donate as well and thanks for doing this uh I encourage people to watch your special,

see you when you're out on tour again. And I just have been, I've admired your work for so long. I feel very lucky to know you and thanks for doing this. Same here, Mike. Same here. And always a pleasure to see you. And hopefully we'll be able to do it in person next time. Working it out, because it's not done.

Working it out, because there's no hope. That's going to do it for another episode of Working It Out. That's David Cross. I'm so glad we finally had David. We've been talking about trying to get David to come on for a while. Such an amazingly funny and talented, just a wildly talented person. He's a one-of-a-kind person. You can watch his new special on officialdavidcross.com.

You can follow him on Twitter at davidcross with three S's, which is not how it's spelled. Our producers of Working It Out are myself, along with Peter Zalimone and Joseph Perbiglia. Consulting producer Seth Barish. Sound mix by Kate Balinski.

Associate producer Mabel Lewis, special thanks to Mike Insiglieri, Mike Berkowitz, as well as Marissa Hurwitz and Josh Huffall. Special thanks to Jack Antonoff and Bleachers for their music that they're on tour. It's selling out like crazy, to the point where Joe Berbiglia called me yesterday to say,

can you help me get tickets to the Bleachers concert in Boston? So, Jack, if you're listening, as always, a very special thanks to my wife, the poet J. Hope Stein. Our book is called The New One. We were just nominated to be semi-finalists for the Thurber Prize in

American Humor. It's a huge honor. The Thurber House in Columbus, Ohio is a beloved institution. If you haven't been there before, absolutely visit it. If you're a literary wonk, you'll love it. I loved it. Our book, the new one, is in your local bookstore. Support your local bookstore. As always, a special thanks to my daughter, Una, who created our original radio fort made of pillows. Thanks most of all to you who are listening. I appreciate it.

I notice in the Apple podcast when you write the little user review, just go on there. Just say, hey, my favorite episode was David Cross. Hey, my favorite episode was Mo Amor. My favorite episode was John Mulaney. Just put in, you know, put in an episode you like. I liked when the Lucas Brothers were on.

I liked it when Natasha Lyonne was on. I liked it when Natasha Lyonne was on. I liked it when Bill Hader was on. It doesn't matter. Whatever episode you enjoyed, it means a lot to us if you put that in and spread the word, because what, you know, we're 60 or 70 episodes at this point. I don't even know if people know where to start.

Ira Glass would be another good one to start with. So tell your friends. Mention it to your enemies. I mean, look, let's say you're playing tennis at your local outdoor tennis courts, and someone keeps hitting a ball into your court, and it reaches a point where you just go, is this on purpose? I mean, what are you doing? I mean, your court's over there.

My court's over here. You just keep hitting your ball into my court. I mean, so then you walk over. You go, hey, look. Hey, look, sir. There's this comedy podcast I really enjoy. It's called Working It Out, and I think you'd really enjoy it. Here's your ball.

We're working it out. See you next time, everybody.