Mike Birbiglia's Working It Out - 8. Hasan Minhaj: Sometimes Living Through History... Sucks

Episode Date: July 20, 2020

Mike and Hasan are friends who love talking about current events and comedy craft. In this episode, Hasan teases possible themes and stories for his next special, which shares some commonality with Mike’s special Thank God For Jokes. They talk about everything from macaroni and cheese to marriage and children to the time Hasan came to Mike’s apartment for a script reading and his takeaway was that Mike’s wife Jen is a better person than Mike. This conversation goes from macro to micro to personal to global. Thank God for jokes and thank God for Hasan Minhaj. Please consider donating to: NRDC: https://www.nrdc.org/ Campaign Zero: https://www.joincampaignzero.org/

We're back with another episode of Working It Out. I met Hasan Minhaj in 2014 at the Montreal Just for Laughs Comedy Festival. He was in the New Faces category, and he exploded shortly thereafter as a correspondent for The Daily Show, in his Peabody Award-winning special Homecoming King on Netflix, and in his own series Patriot Act, which we referenced in this episode, he got in a lot of hot water for some episodes about Saudi Arabia and India and Philippines. Today, I chatted with Hassan.

There was no hot water. Just warm water, bubbles, and laughs. Enjoy. I mean, I feel like you're threading quite a needle right now because you're in the belly of the beast, which is that current events are the most chaotic they've possibly been in the last 50 years or more. Yeah. And you're forced to find the humor in that regularly. And man, do I not envy that.

That is so hard. The problem. Thanks, man. be that that is so hard the problem thanks man i mean the the the problem is is uh sometimes and i'll tell prashant this and i'll tell the writers this on the show is i'll be like man sometimes we don't have enough time to think oh i know and and um i actually said this in this last episode um the joke was something along the lines of this, of like, people will tell us all the time, hey man, we're living through history. And I'm like, yeah, living through history sucks.

Reading about history is awesome. Like reading about history is awesome because you know how the story is going to end. And then I tagged the joke where I'm, we ended up cutting these tags because they were were so dark but you tag the joke abe lincoln probably shouldn't have been such a big fan of theater hey jfk maybe don't take the drop top don't take the drop top out that day right and they were just they were groaners oh my gosh but but again hindsight is 2020 when you're living through history you're like are we are we in Act 1? Are we in Act 2?

Who's the good guy? Who's the bad guy? That's part of the reason I don't mess with political comedy too much. Like, I wrote a joke the other day. I'll say it on this podcast, but I'll tell you as a preface to the audience, this isn't going to be in a special. I don't stand behind this, but I do think it's a funny line. Right now, there's political comedy gridlock

because liberals can't take jokes and conservatives can't write them ah okay yeah yeah it's a funny line but i don't i don't want to be like i don't think it's universally true right that liberals can't take jokes i don't think it's universally true that conservatives can't write jokes, but it's a funny generalization. Yes. Yes. And I hear what you're saying where you're like, look, if I say this, do I have a seven to ten minute run defending it? That's right!

And then I'm like, and like you're saying, history is what is going to decide, and we haven't lived through the cycle of history to know. Yeah. It's also a thing, and in comedy is mike berbiglia the character are you a contrarian comic that's a great question i think i think how there's like the answer is i'm i'm apolitical actually but then weirdly like my my twitter persona is fucking furious yeah you're super political and political. And then when your stage show is one of the most bipartisan stage shows

I've ever seen. I'm not trying to say this to be cliche, but it is just about the human experience, which is really beautiful. And yeah, Nancy Pelosi and Mike Pence can both appreciate that equally. Oh my gosh. I know, what a weird combination

if they both showed up to the charity. But yeah, you have Mike Birbiglia has a Hamilton situation where just like you have like mike berbiglia has a hamilton situation where just like you have to yeah i have to speak to pence at the end of the show you know i fantasize about that all the time it's like what if ivanka or don jr one of these people at some point even not now but like 10 years 15 years down the road yeah is in the audience of one of my shows and what is my moral obligation to what I believe is an evil regime of people and what is my obligation to myself

and to my fans to... And I have a whole thing in my head, which is that at the beginning of the show, if I see that they're there, I say, you know, my goal as an entertainer is to entertain everyone who is in a room. And sometimes, occasionally, there are a few exceptions. That's great. And then move on from there. And so you don't call out their names. And then move on from there.

And so you don't call out their names. You don't give them attention. You don't give them oxygen. But you just acknowledge that, you know what? I'm an entertainer, but I'm not good with you, actually. Uh-huh. You know what's really funny? Is that you and John Mulaney are some of the funniest mean comics behind characters.

Like you guys, if pushed, you can be so cutting and biting and like really be savage. John can be wicked. John can be wicked. Totally. And I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, Kid Gorgeous. That's a none of the act. That's not to be wicked. Totally. And I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa. Kid gorgeous. That's a none of the that's not in the act. But I think I think, again, because you guys are such masters of the craft, you also know and you're saying that with wisdom is do I want to stand by that? Like, yeah, I can. I can do kind of Comedy Central roast jokes.

Do I stand by those jokes? And that's something where, I'll be frank, like, I've never been that guy. Like, those thoughts, they trust me. That Green Room banter or that Comedy Cellar table shit-talking, like, totally. Like, if you stay in this game long enough, you're going to be able to do that. But I just have to ask myself sometimes,

I'm like, do I want to stand by that? Do I want that to be on YouTube forever? And I have to go back and answer for that. But you've done it. You've done it with the Saudi Arabia stuff. I mean, you've done it in a handful of places where even I, as your friend, am concerned. Right, right.

And that's actually a big theme that I'm working on for concerned. Right, right. And that's something that I'm, that's actually a theme, a big theme that I'm working on for my next one, man, which is why do we do and why do we say the things that we say? Because especially the position that I've been in,

conflict, evisceration culture, we've been incentivized to do that. And how much of that is me being true to my comedic voice and what I really want to do in my heart, and how much of that is swinging for the fences knowing you're going to create a moment. How much of activism is just an act? And what's really interesting that's happening right now

is a lot of that stuff is being adjudicated in real time. Hey, you put up that black square. Did you really mean it, or are you doing it defensively? Like, how much of this is you kind of that stuff is being adjudicated in real time. Hey, you put up that black square. Did you really mean it? Or are you doing it defensively? Like, how much of this is you kind of pandering to where the Overton window is? And how much of this, how much do you really feel? And then also, because of the subject matter that I'm dealing with,

there's a lot of third rail international issues is, whose responsibility is my jokes? I say these things as an independent person, but I'm a father of two now. I have a new one that was just born, right? I think about this all the time. Yeah, they have to carry that legacy for better, for worse. So how many autocrats, how many dictators,

how many things do you want to have beef with and you want your son and your daughter to carry that with them? Sometimes when I'm writing new material, I have a lot of questions. I don't have answers just yet. So it's more interesting than it is funny. Yeah.

I think that often it's the story that you have that you tell your friends casually at parties or at a bar or you're hanging out at their apartment that is the thing you should be talking about on stage. Got it. That thing that's bursting out of you that you have to tell all your friends that you grew up with.

Because it's what you're thinking about. I mean, I feel like so many comics, myself included, at different phases, you're saying what you think either people want to hear or what you think you're best at saying. And it's like, the truth is, it's like, who cares about that? I want to know what's on your mind. Right, right, right.

That's really funny. So in this current climate where there's a lot of stuff that you're that we're all uncomfortable saying or even putting out there like the joke i said earlier yeah where i'm like i'm not gonna put that on a special because i don't want to stand behind it but but is that bad mike i have this question where do unpolished thoughts or where do they go? Where do they go? Yeah. Yeah, and where should they go? And because that gets ratcheted up even for someone like me, where there's this constant debate in regards to if you have your own show, who do you platform and who do you not platform?

And I always wanted to ask you this almost like a chapter two to thank God for jokes. Yeah. Because that's, that, what was really dope about that special is that was the conversation that was happening the year that you dropped that. And what was so cool is I think you established chapter one where you're like, I love jokes. I love jokes and I will defend all types of jokes because I just love them, you know? And you even went out to say you're like, people should not be murdered or killed for jokes. Like, that's insane, you know? I'm thinking about this too where there's this new kind of debate about kind of discourse and all of those things.

And I do see comedy as an art form. But sometimes it gets critiqued not like it's an art form. Like it gets critiqued as if it is literal, biblical, Old Testament. Like discourse. That it's not hyperbolic. Intention is thrown out of the window. All of those things. So my follow-up to thank

god for jokes if i were to write it would be talking about how i think the reason i think the reason that what you're describing happened which is that that comedy has been amplified to a status of being a sermon as opposed to being entertainment, is that the art form itself became popular. And it used to be indie. And so when I got into comedy in the 90s and early— Dude, that's so funny. You know who told me that, too? Bobby Kelly told me that, too.

He said, you can say whatever the fuck you want on stage, but the moment money gets involved, all of a sudden it becomes police. He's like, trust me, you can say whatever you want in a basement. You can. Oh, yeah. Absolutely. But if the dollar signs next to it are big enough. And he just broke it down.

Bobby was actually really great. He was like, notice how whenever you do a private gig, they'll literally say, you can't say this, this, this, this, and this. this by the way we're giving you this many thousand dollars and you're like got it you know what i mean i was talking to ronnie chang about that the other day i go do you ever think about going to china and and performing in you know in mandarin because it seems like there'd be a lot of money in it, obviously. Right. And he goes, no, because it's not what I wanted to do. I don't want the list of things, like you're describing with corporates,

to be don't talk about the government, don't talk about religion, don't talk about... That's not why I got into this. Yeah. And I think that's one of the things... We ended up in this universe where when like you and i started getting into comedy it was sort of an more of an indie art form and now it's become really pop it's huge yeah it's huge i mean chapelle did his thing the other day and it got it's like 40 million views on youtube or something right

it's insane yeah it's like unbelievable yeah yes it is it is popular culture and it used to be this thing that and he's not by the way he's not even telling jokes i know i'm doing jokes i know and it's great by the way it's brilliant i'm and it should get 40 million views. I mean, Dave is one of our smartest people in America. But wow, we are really finding ourselves in an interesting place for comedy right now, which is, you know, 20, 30, 40 million people are watching a comedian address an issue without jokes. Right, right, right. This analogy doesn't, the joke math doesn't work out perfectly here,

but it's basically like, look, if you have the same viewership and coverage as a Katy Perry or a Lady Gaga or Justin Bieber, then will the act have to be saran wrapped and protected in such a way, you know, legal check, fact check, all of these things, because it's just seeing so

many eyeballs. Whereas when you and I got into it, you know, just doing, you know, 220 people at Cap City Comedy Club, that was a huge win, you know, and you were playing for that. And maybe you get a Comedy Central half hour. It was this kind of secondary or tertiary thing on the hierarchy of art. I think it goes to the question that you were posing earlier, though, which is like, what are we doing it for in the first place? And my personal answer, and I'm curious to know what your personal answer is. My personal answer is when I first saw Stephen Wright or Jake Johansson or any of the comedians who I really love starting out,

when I first saw them, I felt less alone because I thought, oh, wow, these are these wild, surrealistic and also personal, deep thoughts that someone is externalizing for me and a group of strangers. And I want to get in on that. I want to do something like that because that makes me feel what I think a lot of people feel in religion, from their religions. And I feel that from comedy. And that's why my show is called Thank God for Jokes in some ways. But what is that to you? what are you in comedy for? Man, so I was actually talking to this with a musician friend of mine. He's a rapper.

His name is Brother Ali. And he was talking about how with different musicians, there's a reason why they get into music to begin with. And he was speaking to it from a very deep philosophical position, but it really connected with me. He was like, some people get into music to connect, to be understood, to have power. And I was like, what do you mean by that? Like this power thing. He's like, sometimes it's power over others. Like I want to pull the levers and mechanisms of society.

I want to be able to have the shiny splashy show or to have the fame or to have those things so I can be in the room where it all happens and that means a lot to me that means i can push the buttons to make things happen for me other times yeah i want power over my own life and it's interesting three of those things connected to me you know kind of from an insecure place of like yes i want to connect so much of when i'm on stage and i've tried to become better with that as i've gotten older and more and deeper into comedy is hey just because you

bomb doesn't mean you suck like you got to be better about you know what i mean like yeah yeah yeah sure because i'll take it so personally i'm like why why isn't this resonating and it's my desire to connect i want this to connect. It means the world to me when it connects. Right. Then the second is just, you know, being misunderstood. I've always kind of felt misunderstood. Comedy was this great way where I feel like we're all a bunch of mutants and we have these superpowers and we're able to be understood through our act. But the third, it was why I decided to just get up and do that first open mic

it's power and control over my own life because when I first started doing comedy I worked at OfficeMax and I was selling printers and I remember my boss would talk to me a certain way when people would come into OfficeMax

I used to have to say welcome to OfficeMax how can I help you take it to the max? Sure. I didn't even have power or control over my own dignity. You had to say what? Welcome to OfficeMax what? How can I help you take it to the max? I thought I heard it like I was making sure I heard it correctly.

Welcome to OfficeMax. How can I help you take it to the max? Yeah. Amazing. Yeah. Amazing. Which, by the way, have you talked about that on stage? That's too good. Yeah. it correctly that is phenomenal how can i help you take it to the max yeah amazing yeah and amazing which by the way have you talked about that on stage that's too good yeah i think that was like some one of my opening like one of my first jokes and i was like first starting out and like i think

you got to get that back in yeah because i think that that and that i talk about it in the slow round but like but it's like the those kind of prompts that's the perfect example of like what's like a cringy thing yeah a thing that makes you cringe now thinking about it's like how can i help you take it to the max is quintessential example of that yeah and like it was one of those things i didn't realize it until now where i was like oh the thing that got me to go to the sacramento punchline on that tuesday yeah was i don't want my manager brian to talk to me like that ever again there isn't a feeling of if i can do this i'm in control i can say whatever i want i don't have to say how can i help you take it to the max i can say whatever

the fuck i want yeah yeah and then yeah you know what's crazy is the more you get into it the deeper you get and you start to make money doing it is is you start to say, I don't want anybody to tell me what to say or do. successful people are failing more than the people who are quote-unquote failures. Like, think about the people who we know, who, you know, the Dave Chappelle's and the Chris Rock's of the world, who... I mean, Rock will bring the notebook on stage. Yeah, they're on stage so much. And bombing. Like, I mean, Chappelle, like, I've watched Rock and Chappelle a lot at the Comedy Cellar for hours. And, like, they spend a lot of time with no laughs.

A lot of time. It's unbelievable. That level of, especially when Rock is working out, it's so cool to see he won't even turn on full Chris Rock. He's not hitting the NOS button. Like, he's just no booster jets. And he knows he can. Yeah. And he's like, nope, I'm not going to put anything extra on this.

We do a thing on the show here called the slow round. And my first slow round question today is, do you have a skill that no one really knows about uh i mean this is a weird talent that i have but i can spin a basketball on my finger for a very long time like a surprisingly long time where it's kind of impressive if i was at a dinner party i could spin it on my finger and then like 20 seconds? 20 seconds. And then if I'm going to kind of spell out the imagery, I can then have it climb up my arm, over my shoulder, across my other shoulder, and then back around like I'm a Harlem Globetrotter.

No way. Yes. No way. Exactly. Like the Harlem Globetrotters? Yeah. Yeah. You can start doing the song and I'll just do it.

And it's very good. Yeah. Dude, that is amazing. It's a stupid skill that I got when I was 15. That's real. Nothing stupid about it. Yeah, man. That'll open up a lot of doors.

Yeah, yeah. Do you have a smell from childhood that sticks with you? Do you have a smell from childhood that sticks with you? One is this gym called Hickey Gym, which is on the UC Davis campus. And as kids, we would break into Hickey Gym. Like, we would find somebody to prop the door open, and then we would just go in and play. You had to be a student to play in that gym, and it was used for practice. But it's this old, dingy gym that was made in, like, the 30s. But you know the smell in that gym um and it was used to for practice but it's it's this old dingy gym that was made in like the 30s but you know the smell of that gym like oh i know i know the gym

smell it's really it's really dingy and old and and when you when you play on it there's pockets where if you're dribbling the ball it'll just dunk it'll just die you know but but i remember as i remember that smell i remember the smell of when you open that the the double doors to go into it the feeling that you get where you're like we're sneaking in and that the double door isn't locked and just the smell of like the bleachers in the way the water the the water from the water fountain it kind of had like a letty kind of taste to it yes and you know this gym, your middle school gym was like this. Like, there's a lot of gyms that are like this.

It's like how... That's so funny. The taste of the water brings me back to, like, St. John's summer camp when I was a kid. And it's like, how many water fountains did we essentially, like, lick as children? And there was a lot of kids that would just straight up full-on go CPR on that water fountain. You know?

Of course. You know what also, what really bothers me, man, is I look at the vividness at which my daughter makes memories. Like, she'll look at a blade of grass. She's, you know, she's two, so, like, she's walking around the world like she'll look at a blade of grass she's you know she's two so like she's walking around the world like she's high but the ability you know like she has this hello kitty plush animal and the way she like looks at just even the way the dress ruffles for hello kitty and i envy that level of attention to detail and being present. Whereas with me, just the sheer, the hit of life that I need to my dome

for it to resonate. Like, I have like six memories as an adult where I was like, yeah, that really stood out. Like that day that we performed at Andrews Air Force Base and we met Barack and Michelle Obama. But that's the same as my daughter holding her Hello Kitty, where she can just look at it and look at that moment for like 40 minutes. And I'm like, why do I have to ascend to that level of memory? I have this joke where I go,

I'm halfway through my life. Not technically. Not everyone dies at 84. Nobody's ever like, 80 through 100 100 those are the years they're like i was 83 i reached for a grape and i never walked again you know that's uh but i don't know i mean it's like my you know my dad had his first heart attack when he was i think 57 his dad had a heart attack at 57 and and and i think died from it uh He died before I was born. And so I don't know.

I mean, I feel like it's the first time where I'm going like, oh yeah, this is, you know, I could go at 50, I could go at 60, I could go at 80. I mean, there's no way to know. My dad's 80 now. Wow. Yeah, it's wild. I never-

How about you? How long do you think your lifespan will go? I don't know. That's the thing. I don't think about it that much. I feel like I'm just, I'll tell Pr't know. That's the thing. I don't think about it that much. I feel like I'm just, I'll tell Prashanth this all the time. I feel like we're running with bags.

The past six, seven years that since I moved to New York, it's just been head down running with bags. Like literally running with bags. Like going on tour, going whatever, changing apartments every like year and a half. Yes. It just, yeah yeah it just feels like this insane blur and it's weird i miss the singularity of the smell of hickey jim like nothing feels like that anymore you know but by the way running with bags you should if you don't have that in your notebook already you should write that down i mean i think that's a great that's a great uh piece of imagery for your show.

Interesting. Just the idea of, and you totally get it, where I'm like running either with like a suitcase or I'm running with, yep, like one of those diaper bags or whatever. I just think it's a very human, relatable thing that we're all running with bags. Yeah. This is a bit that I was working on, which is quarantine is sort of the first time I've cooked. I mean, I've done a lot of heating, you know, but I haven't cooked. Like, I went to college, I got married, I had a child, and then I learned to cook, and soon I will die, which is not the typical order of events. which is not the typical order of events.

And so I've always gone with heating over cooking, like macaroni and cheese, like thousands of boxes as a kid. And a box of macaroni and cheese contains macaroni and a packet of powder. And I started to think about it, like what's in the powder? And I looked on the side and it says, we don't talk about what's in the powder. That looked on the side and it says we don't talk about what's

in the powder that's hilarious first rule of macaroni and cheese don't talk about macaroni and cheese yeah yeah and then even when i took the powder out of the cheese packet i actually would turn my face away so i didn't inhale the powder powder but then but then I think about it and go like, well, actually, I'm about to eat it, which is a voluntary inhalation. I can't have it go in through my nose. I'm about to ingest it through my mouth. But I was adamant about cooking

macaroni and cheese for my daughter. She's five. Because I ate it as a kid. It was nostalgic. And Jen, my wife, won't let me cook her macaroni and cheese as a kid. It was nostalgic. And Jen, my wife, won't let me cook her macaroni and cheese from a box because there have been articles in the New York Times about how the powder may contain carcinogens. And my argument back was not that strong.

I was like, well, I ate it as a kid, and I got cancer, so I guess maybe that's not a great argument. Yeah. Like my question for you hearing that bit, what appeals to you most about it in terms of what do you want to hear more about and what feels like an original thought

that you haven't heard anything about before? Well, I just, I love the way you describe those two different kind of worlds because it represents a completely different level of maturity in adulthood. Oh, interesting. Heating versus cooking. These are two different, do you know what I mean?

That's like, yeah, yeah. W2 versus W9. There's like a different, when you're filling out who the dependents are versus if you're one of the dependents, heating versus cooking is that level up. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. I'm like, all right. I would say until probably age 30, I was just heating things up. Yes. You know what I mean? And then like, I think I hit 31 probably now. Do you notice this? Do you operate, and i don't want to be to whatever like analyzing

comedy though but do you realize that so much of comedy comes from a low status position like you were talking about type 2 diabetes you were talking i mean you talk about like throwing yourself out of a window it's basically packaging your loss like i'm the protagonist in the story but the protagonist is losing. Besides, like, an Andrew Dice Clay or an Anthony Jesselnik, can comedy be done from a high-status position? I think we're at

a unique crossroads where Hannah Gadsby has this line in Nanette where she says, I won't self-deprecate because at a certain point when you're part of a marginalized group, self-deprecate because at a certain point when you're part of a marginalized group, self-deprecation is just humiliation. Right.

And I think that's interesting because I'm like, I don't necessarily, I told her this, I don't necessarily agree with that, but it really makes me think. Yeah. I mean, it really is an interesting crossroads for comedy that we're at right now where marginalized groups are becoming really good at comedy. Right. You know? Right. And really popular.

You know, Anna's a perfect example of, like, really, really popular and well-received. And then it becomes, like, I don't know. I mean, how do you feel about it? Well, I'll say this. Like, I think it's a really powerful statement. I think the power of not taking yourself so seriously, there's power in that. Because I'll be honest, so much of my adult life,

and especially growing up Indian, is like everything being perfect and everything being put together and being able to just be kind of honest of just like, look, it's just not all there. And I think people can connect to that. And I think it gives them license to perhaps be okay with some of their shortcomings too,

even if they're not willing to admit them. That's how I feel about it. And I think, like, especially right now with, I think, the way Twitter dialogue is, there's nothing worse than, I think, two things. There's nothing worse than a comedian that takes themselves too seriously and then a blogger that takes comedy too seriously.

Both of those philosophical positions, I'm like, lighten the fuck up to both positions i i completely agree and by the way i think that there's a thing in comedy right now where we have to reach a point where we acknowledge that we do not have to agree with what a comedian is saying to enjoy their performance so like hannah has that point about self-deprecation. I love it. I love that she makes that observation that didn't occur to me,

but it doesn't mean I agree with it. It doesn't mean that I have to agree with it. But do you think that's an important point? And would that point land if you said it in a special? Thank God for jokes part two? Sure, whatever it was. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I might, yeah. I could whatever it was. Yeah, I mean, I might

examine that at some point. I mean, I just feel like we're, like you're saying earlier, we're living in the middle of history, and so to comment on the historical moment in media's res is maybe not the wisest thing to do.

Right, as we're in it, yeah. Basically, what you're saying is just when you operate in binary absolutes, you're probably not, it's probably not a wise social position to have or even argumentative position to have. And I remember one time I was getting into a pretty, I don't know, I was in the writer's room and I was just super steamed.

And I was kind of having like a very-'ve by the way i've seen you super steamed and it's not pretty okay like i was like i was having a naive position about i made a blanket statement about politicians in front of uh steve bodo and who's our who was our showrunner uh about six or seven months ago he was he was showing on the show we worked together the daily show i call him for advice a lot of times but anyways i was like uh i was shitting on a certain politician right and i'm just like fuck them like dude why do they even why like they want me to wear their shirts they want us to come in iraq they're fucking liars this that and the other like and then they expect like they want to come on our show and they want me to throw them softball questions fuck that like i was livid yeah you know

i was livid and and i was like dude what i don't even i was so mad i was like i don't even know why i participate in this game i see their bullshit i know it's there in our pre-interview they're telling me please perpetuate the bullshit fuck it i'm not even gonna vote for them and yep um steve said something really profound to me, and it was an adult observation. He was like, hey, man, how many times in your everyday life have you taken less than ideal paths forward? Like when you came to work today,

was it the best path that you wanted to take, or did you hit traffic? I was like, yeah. Almost never, almost never. Yeah, I was like, I hit traffic. He's like, okay, when you went to go get coffee at Rex today, did they have what you wanted or did they run out of almond milk or whatever? You had to make, you had to make a choice. He's like, every day we make a series of compromises and we make the best choices

based on the variables we're given. Why are you being so absolute about this particular position? Like, he's like, I have no problem with you feeling that, but why are you being so absolute about this particular position? Like, he's like, I have no problem with you feeling that, but why are you taking an absolute position on it when you know that 85% of the choices that you literally made today were based on less than ideal circumstances, but you took the best choice? And I'm like, you know what sucks?

That opinion isn't great for television. That opinion isn't great for an algorithm, but that's a philosophically true position. Yeah. And that's something worth being defended. And then my head is like,

where do I put that? How do I explain that? What's the metaphor or story that I do to explain that? You know? I have this idea that I'm working on where something can be awful

and endearing at the same time. Sure. And how do you make sense of that? Like, this is really dark. I don't even know where to put it. But, like, you know Osama bin Laden was really into Whitney Houston? Is that true? Yeah.

And, like, I don't know why. Dude, that's too good. Okay, again, I'm going to preface this for everybody listening. But, like, this is how I would tag the joke. It's like, can you imagine? Like, you know, he was tall and then he's he's hooked up i think he was like hooked up to he had like he had kidney problems or whatever and he's just he's listening to the bodyguard soundtrack oh my gosh as they come and light him up in a bod a bod you know like oh my god

like he's listening he will always love you and he's just getting lit up as he's listening to the bodyguards i mean it's such a dark thing but yeah i don't know that image to me is very funny that it's awful and endearing that like yeah this dude maybe a good tag is like is is osama that bad or is Whitney that good? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's like George W. Bush started an unnecessary war in Iraq. He loves dogs. I know, and his paintings are actually kind of good.

Yeah, you can fight with people all day about those paintings. People hate those paintings, but I got to say, if we're speaking our honest truth, there's something that's endearing about the painting. Yeah, there's just something really cute about him painting a bowl of fruit. I don't know what it is. We're not saying the Iraq war was okay. Yeah, we should have never invaded Iraq. Can I run one by you where I'm like,

Please. Okay, I don't know. I have tried to make this work on stage. The emotion is true, but I don't, I've never been able to make it connect with an audience and only bina gets it so okay so there's this place called rheinbeck which is upstate it's sure it's um jordan klepper told me about it it was our anniversary our second anniversary i didn't i wasn't familiar with new york like what upstate was what the cat skills were he was like take her to Rhinebeck.

There's this beautiful little inn. It's right on the water. Like it's old. It's quaint. It looks like a Hallmark movie. Take her there. It's great. We just went.

You'll love it. I take her there. And Rhinebeck is so small. Like by the time we got there off the train, we tried to go have dinner. And the three restaurants that were open in town were closed. So it's like we went we tried to go have dinner and the three restaurants that were open in town were closed so it's like we went to bed hungry and it was this it was it was this thing where it's just like i was supposed to plan this thing for her and it was supposed to be perfect but at every like juncture i came home from work late which means that we left that friday night

we got to rheinbeck too late the food we didn't get we weren't able to get food so we went to bed hungry we woke up yeah i was like it's all good the the inn to get food, so we went to bed hungry. We woke up. And I was like, it's all good. The inn, they have breakfast there, so we can have breakfast. So basically, nobody was staying at the inn. So it was just us and one other couple. And we're sitting there at breakfast. This other couple is maybe four tables away. And this girl is having a full-on argument with the guy.

She goes, and I remember this. I remember this as clearly as like hickey jim she goes yeah really you're gonna tell your mom i'm just your friend oh my god yeah so they were at a they were at a wedding the night before and he introduces said girl as hey mom this is my quote-unquote And I'm staring. I'm full on staring. I'm watching them having a full on fight. And I cannot tell you how happy I was to watch another couple fight. Yeah. Okay. Sure. Why do I feel this way, Mike? Why do I get such joy watching other people's lives fall apart? Well, it's sch schadenfreude which is the joy from other people's pain okay that's part of it and then and then i think it is it's the relatability

of that you and bina have conflicts and sometimes you secretly probably think it's just you two. Yes, but there's this joy of like, I reveled in it because I was like, hey babe, look, that guy is worse than me. Dude, that bit is done. I mean, it's just a matter of where you're going to put that in the show. I think that bit is so funny. And part of the reason I think it's so funny is that the moment you describe the couple and you use the direct

quote from the from the woman i'm transported there and i'm enjoying it as a voyeur through your eyes bina couldn't watch she's like they're fighting we shouldn't look and i was like oh i'm looking we have to i'm i'm in i'm subscribed to the podcast i'm liking i'm leaving a comment below i'm in i'm all in on this whole thing but i've tried to make that work and i've noticed the audience has kind of been like wait what you you enjoy watching them fall apart like i'm not selling the idea right I guess I would say like what it like what is your were you were you

inconspicuously or conspicuously watching them argue I mean I do have a staring problem like I just stare and Bina tells me this all the time like I would do it on the train I just do it I love

I love watching scenes unfold that tells me this all the time like i would do it on the train i just do it i love um i love watching scenes unfold and i think you also have big eyes yeah so it's just so it's no it's noticeable yeah and it's very noticeable and i didn't notice how big of a problem it was until i went to india because indians stare so you go to a country where everybody's staring at everybody and it's very weird like everybody's just kind of looking at everybody. And so when I'm just the only one doing it on the train, I don't feel it as much because nobody's staring at me. It's when I would go, like when I would take the train or go down to the cell or whatever, and I'm just watching other people. I always felt like this great way. It's why I love New York so much is I can just kind of see

all these scenes unfold i think that bit that you're describing is phenomenal i think you might want to harp on that you're not good at staring oh because that's sort of that's sort of in the self-deprecating realm this it's this idea when you know how like we all feel like we're the protagonist in our own movie. Sure. So if Jen criticizes you, you're just like, man, I suck.

Like if she's, if she's saying this about you, I suck. And that means I carry the weight of all of that suckiness. And there's something so, I don't know, relieving and kind of titillating to be like, oh wait

there's all these other dudes out there that suck way more. So much worse. It makes me feel better about myself. But why do I have that need to show the receipt to my wife too and be like, babe come on. You will never have that problem with me.

I'll be like, this is my wife. I think you're onto something that might be a digression from this, which is when our partner, our romantic partner judges us. Yes. I think there's a fork in the road between people like you and me

who agree with the partner for judging us. Yeah. Who are like, oh yeah, you're right. Yeah, you got me. I'm an idiot. Right. And then there's, and then, and you and I witness this with people watching all the time,

there's the bros who ain't going out like that. Yes. You know, like their partner calls them on something and they're like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. That's not how it is. No, that's not how it is. They go down firing like that last scene in Scarface. They're like, you want to play rough?

Okay. Like they're pulling out the guns and they're just, they're going down like guns blazing. But I think there's something there with taking apart your entire so so you have this trip that is to rheinbeck yes and i'd probably leave out the no restaurants thing at the beginning yeah the three restaurants are closed because who cares it doesn't have anything to do with what you're talking about the real meat of the matter is you get to Rhinebeck, you go to breakfast,

and this couple has this conversation next door. And you sort of relish it, and Bina sort of hates that you're relishing it. And therein lies the metaphor of your marriage, which is that when Bina, like, criticizes something about you, you sort of agree with her. But it doesn't take away from the fact

that you're still enjoying it. Do you know what's crazy? This isn't funny. How do I make this funny? So she's a better human being than me because she's watching them fight and she's turning away out of humility because she believes in objective

virtue she does not believe in a zero-sum game like virtue is virtue and it's good for just being virtuous honesty good things are good bad things are bad and we should not kind of like entertain them yeah i mean i have a joke i have a joke in my new whatever developing hour which is that one day i said to my daughter, mom's going to put you to bed tonight. And she said, she's not your mom. She's my mom. And I said, that's what my therapist keeps telling me, which is obviously like a joke about how we project our parents onto our loved one, et cetera. And I guess my question for you would be like, in the relationship with Bina, like, is that one of your parents subbing in for Bina

that you think one of your parents is like, let's say more virtuous than the other or more of a better person than the other? Right? Yes. Yes. Yes. Who is it? Who is it? I don't want to name them because they listen to, it's so funny. I'm actually more afraid of saying that

because they actually listen to everything. That's hilarious. My parents are huge fans of you and they saw you at the Mondavi Center so they're definitely going to listen to this.

It's so funny. I'm totally okay making my Osama Bin Laden Whitney Houston joke on this podcast. Yeah, yeah, yeah. This has gone one step too far. Because I know they will take it literally, but yes, I know. Okay, so we don't have to say, but I think like for the bit long term, I think you should think

about like what your relationship with your parents is and why you're projecting on Bina that she's a better person than you. Because by the way, like I love Bina, but I don't think she's a better person than you. I think you're both very good good people so it's like so so that's on you and i think you have to you have to look within and figure out why are you projecting that i get that in that instance she's probably right yes but at the same time there you have things about you that are extraordinarily virtuous or interesting or kind also so like i just think like i think taking apart the metaphor of your relationship with your loved one in that story and i would even strip away your friend saying like go you know jordan klepper saying like go to rck, um, because it's not necessary.

We went away on this trip and we're having breakfast and this thing happens. And, uh, and, and, and therein lies this, you break open this metaphor of your own marriage and you reveal things that you secretly feel about your marriage. Because by the way, like, what's interesting is you revealing secrets about your marriage. I mean, as painful as that sounds, like, that's what we're there for. That's why we're all in the dark room together watching you speak.

You know what's so funny, Mike? I got to unpack this even further because it's so crazy. I remember coming to a table read for your movie, right? For Don't Think Twice? Yeah, for Don't Think Twice. You would invite, like, to a table read for your movie, right? For Don't Think Twice? Yeah, for Don't Think Twice. You would invite different friends over.

They read stuff, right? And I remember being like, I was at your guys' place. And yeah, this has way more to do with me than it does with you. But I remember Jen was there and she was so sweet and everybody got pizza. And immediately, dude, I felt this within 10 seconds.

I was like, Jen's a better person than Mike. Oh my God. I fucked up. You've got to be kidding me. Yeah. You've got to be kidding me. And you know what it is, Mike? It's me probably dealing with my own shit.

Where did I make this wild accusation? First of all, the party line is is of course she is okay the real the real answer is it's quite complicated ah okay yeah that's fascinating though i would so you think that potentially you're projecting that totally i'm projecting my own like again i'm bring i'm bringing in my baggage into it husson's selfish husson decided to go be a comedian he didn't go to law school he went to la he blah blah blah he moved his wife away from her her killer job at the homeless veteran shelter that she helped start in la to move to new york all of that stuff right wow so i'm bringing that in in the moment jen's like you want pizza and I'm bringing that in, and the moment Jen's like, do you want pizza?

And I'm like, fuck you, Mike Birbiglia, you selfish piece of shit. She really is. I mean, I've said this before, but I'm definitely, Jen and I sometimes say, like I once asked Jen, I go, I think I married up by marrying you. And she goes, I think i married up by marrying you and she goes i think i married up

by marrying you and and it was a sweet moment right because it was us both confessing that we think more of the other person we think of ourselves yeah and we asked someone who is in one of our families i won't say who okay a. We said, do you guys think you married up? And they both said, I think I married down. Oh, my God. I know. I know. Oh, come on.

I know. And Jen and I just go, oh, shit. That's not the marriage you want to be in. You don't want to think you married down. Yeah. And then you don't want to admit it. Okay. So Mike, this is the crazy part.

I'm imagining the dinner table where you guys are having that. And I'm like, do you have another chair? Because the tension to watch that, if I could have Spike Lee tickets. You just want to stare. So that awkwardness. You guys want to stare? So that awkwardness. You want to stare with those big eyes?

Yeah. I just want to. And then Bina will be mad at you for staring. I remember we were at a wedding one time. This was like from one of her friends from her master's program. And there was this like, there was this couple and they were just like dancing. And they were really bad at dancing.

And I was just staring. And Bina's like, you gotta stop staring. Cause I kind of was like smiling a little bit. She's like, you gotta stop. And I go, the confidence at which Brad is dancing is the confidence I want to be able to walk through life. Like this dude is so objectively bad. Like if there was the dunk contest,

you know how they hold up the sign zero for 10? All three judges would have given it a zero. They would have been like zero. But this dude, he's sweating. He's got the tie around his head. Like he really believes in himself. And I go, Bina, that's how India was colonized because a British man came over and was like,

this is mine for the next 300 years. I don't care if it doesn't make sense. I don't care if I'm doing it good or bad. It's mine. And I'm like, I want to move in life with that level of confidence. By the way, totally separate from all of this. And I'm going to circle back to the marriage stuff.

But I think about the British colonization of India all the time with like this, this sort of breaking down of American history and how bleak it is and how horrible it is and slavery and the killing of Native Americans, massacre of Native Americans. And I go like, just to be clear, are we letting Britain off the hook for India? Totally, man. Like I think about that all the time. Like are we – we're all on the same page that that was horrible right yeah so my parents grew up during partition so what right when uh they

were born when kind of india was liberated again it gained its freedom but i was like most stories of liberation it is a minority population fighting for autonomy and control from a majority. But British colonialism over India was one of the few times where it was majority population fighting for autonomy from minority rule. Shocking. Crazy. Yeah. Which I think is such a crazy, wild concept. I've been trying to dissect it and be like, what's the comedy way in i that sentence is very interesting and weird but then how do i you know do you do you we have to get back to the marriage stuff but like do you feel that do you feel strongly about the british occupation of india like do you is it in your bones or does it feel other than to you it It's definitely the bones of my parents,

but I've seen the modern trappings of it. So I'll give you an example. Like Indians still have a very high reverence for London in the UK. Yes, I've heard that. And I'm like, why? Fuck them. Like my mom cried when Princess Diana died and and i'm like oh my god she's like i loved princess diana and i'm like but she's british royalty like why like um you know there's

this lightning skin cream called fair and lovely that like you use to look more light like there's all these byproducts of kind of british colonialism in india that still exist and i'm just like i don't get it and it it makes me kind of like mad and especially because i'm american and i grew up in the states the way we in our story very much in history is like yo we give britain the bird like we flip them off we're like no yes no taxation without representation we're dumping your fucking tea in the ocean like yeah that kind of feeling of like autonomy and individuality and like i have control over my destiny it's such a yeah american thing and i feel that pride and then i also feel that pride. And it's so interesting because the story of Britain

and its rule over America and the story of Britain's rule over India is very similar. They were both British colonies, you know? Yeah. So let's circle back to the original theme of what the show that you're developing is. How would you describe the new solo show that you're developing is like what what's your how would you describe the the new solo show that you're working on um i don't want to give away too much but i talk about some of the

controversies that i've gotten into and the philosophical question that i'm trying to unpack is can you do the right thing for the wrong reasons yes it's actually kind of a story of regret so some of the stuff that i've done on the show that we've gotten a lot of credit for i actually regret i wish i never did it oh wow wow and that's a weird thing where yeah we live in this age now where people will give you these digital props and they'll put you up they'll prop you up because of it but they you they never hear what happened to you and the ramifications that it had on your life and whether or not you wish you could have done it if you could have done it all over again if that makes sense totally and i think like one of the things you know to to sort of wrap this up to a degree like i think one of the things we should

make a note of or you should put in your notes is like i think the british colonization of india i think is interesting to break open a little bit and maybe like interview your parents about oh interesting because i think that that's got a lot of like who's right, who's wrong kind of thing. Like clearly you think the British are wrong and your parents maybe are more mixed on that. Yes. And then the thing with Bina, I think is a great personal anecdote because it lands it in like,

often you think she's right, but like, is she right? I don't know. You know what I mean? Wait, I'll riff this with you right now. Like I've talked to my parents about this and I'll be like, yeah, fuck them. But they'll be like, but the British gave us the railway system. Who gives a shit?

Like, what? Like, can you imagine that if like in Hamilton or whatever, they were just like, but the British gave us Amtrak. You'd be like, who gives a fuck? Like, are you kidding me yeah and then and then in terms of like the staring thing yeah which is that you have a habit of like staring at the other couple or stare what was your second example you had another like staring oh yeah staring at the confidence of the guy yeah yeah and just maybe there's the connection the way he colonized the dance floor is the way the British colonized India. Just the sheer confidence of like, yep, I'm just going to do this. Exactly.

And then like I think I would break out the staring thing because you have two examples off the top of your head. Literally, you have the breakfast with Bina and then you have the guy dancing at the wedding. You probably have three or four more. You don't even realize it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I get in trouble for it all the time.

And I feel like, throw it all in there, man. That's all great. Uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh. Because also, you know, and then also the thing of, like, the historical pullout of all of this, of, like, that, like, we don't know who's right, we don't know who's wrong until later, right i think about that i think about that constantly i mean sometimes i think i should

just leave twitter entirely because of course like 60 of my takes will be wrong just by virtue of how often we're wrong yeah all of us we're all wrong all the time huh huh chuck klosterman has a book, What If We're All Wrong? And it's like, you read that book and you're like, oh my gosh, I should never have an opinion about anything again. It's a historical breakdown of how often we were wrong about things as a people. And it's really

incredible. Do you feel confident, though, that we at least participate in an art form where we try things hundreds of times and then we put it up to be like i i that's what i love about it and that's why i did this podcast because i couldn't handle the idea of being away from an audience for so long and not having the feedback of understanding whether or not this stuff is connecting with people. Because I was like, I got to connect with people. Like I was doing Instagram Lives and stuff like that, but I was like, I think that I need to properly produce it

and put it in people's ears in a way that they'll really be able to consume it and give feedback. I mean, hopefully when people are listening to this, feel free to tweet at me or post comments in the Instagram section or email me. Sometimes you can just email me, I think at workingitoutpod at gmail.com. I want feedback. I'm interested.

I mean, I think sometimes people don't realize this because a lot of comedians are thin skinned and they're like, people don't want me to say anything. And it's like, I actually, and I think you're sort of like this, I'm sort of interested in what people have to say. I've had people come up to me after my Working It Out shows in Brooklyn, and they said, this joke upset me because of this reason.

And I thought about it, and I either, in many cases, either kept it in, kept it in and changed it or tweaked it to acknowledge that person's pain or cut it. I've cut jokes before. Wow. I'm not embarrassed to say I've cut jokes because people have made me understand something in a way I didn't understand it before. That's really fascinating. Wow.

I mean, because theoretically it's a dialogue. It's like we're trying to get to a point where we present kind of in comedy far out ideas, far out takes on things. Yes. And the audience tells us through laughter or cheering or awing or cringing. You can sense their body language. They tell us what they connect with, and then we adjust accordingly. Yeah. And so the idea of not adjusting or not evolving based on what the audience is saying is like,

to me, it's like, I don't know, sort of pig-headed. Yeah. Yeah. I agree with that, man. But it sounds like you had that with some of your shows where you're like, oh, in hindsight, I'm not sure I would have done that. Yeah. Yeah. I think, oh, in hindsight, I'm not sure I would have done that. Yeah, yeah. I think, again, you can, it's going to be a little bit more meta, but it's like you can stand by the material, but the means and the certain things that you did, were you doing it for the right reasons?

You know? The final segment is working it out for a cause. And it's basically, if you have any organization or nonprofit that you think is doing good work that you want to shine a light on. How about NRDC and Campaign Zero, which is an organization that is figuring out solutions to end police violence. Those are two great ones. That's great.

Yeah. That's great. So we'll give to those this week. And that'll do it. This is Hasan. I wish we could talk like this three times a week. And I'm so glad that we're friends, and I'm so glad we had this talk. Thanks, man. You're the best. Working it out, because it's not done.

We're working it out, because there's no... That was another episode of Working It Out with Hasan Minhaj. Our producers are Peter Salamone and Joseph Birbiglia. Consulting producer Seth Barish. Sound mix by Kate Balinski with help from Joel Robby. Assistant editor Mabel Lewis. Special thanks to my consigliere Mike Berkowitz as well as Marissa Hurwitz. Another special thanks to Jack Antonoff

for our music and as always a very special thanks to my wife the poet J-Hope Stein. Our new book, The New One, is in your local bookstore curbside and there's an additional thing this week. Jen and I are doing a virtual local bookstore tour

of America. Mark your calend virtual local bookstore tour of America. Mark your calendars the whole month of August. It's called, that's an easy way to mark your calendar. It's the whole month of August. It's called Jokes and Poems. We made up this format. It's a one-of-a-kind thing where we're doing couplets of jokes and poems virtually at bookstores across America. And you can sign up for my mailing list on burbiggs.com

for updates about every stop from Spokane to Tulsa to San Francisco to Brooklyn. And as always, a special thanks to my daughter, Una, who created my special radio fort. Once again, our thanks to my daughter, Una, who created my special radio fort. Once again, our thanks to Sam Adams, who is presenting the Restaurant Strong Fund. Join them today at SamuelAdams.com. Until next time, thank you most of all to everyone who listened. Tell your friends, tell your enemies, we're working it out.