Mike Birbiglia's Working It Out - 80. Larry Wilmore: Putting It Out There

Episode Date: September 5, 2022

Larry Wilmore’s credits are endless. In Living Color, The Bernie Mac Show, The Office, The Daily Show, Insecure, and more. Now the legendary writer and performer sits down with Mike to share some of the wisdom he gained from working on all of those classic shows. Larry explains why writers never argue about endings, why his family calls him The Oracle, and why conflict was the driving narrative force behind The Office.Please consider donating to Autism Speaks

But what's funny about writer's rooms is that the things that are said are off the wall. Oh, it's terrible. Because you're finding the line of comedy. Absolutely. Comedy is all about finding the line. A thousand percent true. And to find the line, you've got to go way over the line and then come back and sneak it back. The things we said in the writer's room of The Living Color, I mean, all of us would have been arrested multiple times over the course of many years.

They could excavate it now, and we'd be arrested right now, in fact. Hey, everybody. That is the voice of the great Larry Wilmore. Holy cow. First of all, it's episode 80 of this podcast experiment. Thanks for coming along for this journey. We had no idea we'd be making 80 of these things. And it's so fun meeting you all, some of you at the shows and hearing the feedback about the relationship between the material worked out on the show and then what ends up being in the final show.

It's a cool sort of meta experiment. I'm out on tour. If you want to see me, I just finished up in Los Angeles. I'm going to be in Pittsburgh. There's a few tickets left. Same with Cleveland. Same with Toronto, Atlanta, Cincinnati, Columbus, Detroit, Nashville, Mesa, and Salt Lake City. All of that's on Burbiggs.com.

And New York City, I'm not allowed to say, but there's going to be an announcement very soon. The first people to know will be the Burbiggs.com mailing list. Just join me on there. I don't send out a lot of emails, but when I do, if you like my shows, you're the first person to know about any kind of announcement that there might be about a show. An announcement. That's all you need to know. Larry Wilmore is a legend.

He's a legend of writing and performing and acting. He was the creator of the Bernie Mac show. He was the creator and star of the Nightly show with Larry Wilmore. He was part of the creative

team of Insecure and the PJs and In Living Color and The Office and kind of on and on and on. He's a correspondent on The Daily Show. He is a legend. I love our conversation. It gets really in the weeds on stuff that, for the creatives who listen to the show, I think you'll really dig because he just does not hold back. There's a lot of moments where I thought, did he just say that?

Enjoy my chat with the great Larry Wilmore. You and I were talking the opening night of my show at the Mark Taper about how you had been an actor at the Mark Taper. And it was like one of the first things you did. Right. And I was thinking, like, because there's tons of creatives who listen to the show. Yes. advise people do as much of that stuff especially if you're doing it in college yes take writing classes acting classes directing classes

and if you've been in the business long enough especially as an actor if you know anybody that works in casting or that sit in on some casting sessions

oh my god yes and you will start to learn to take so much attention off of you know the crap that you think is important

and just really just be yourself more isn't that amazing yeah it's crazy how much we're not ourselves. But what do you think? Are we in the... We're rolling, we're rolling. Oh, this is great.

Yeah, yeah. We're straight in. Oh, let me get to mine. Yeah, yeah. So, wait, start over. No, I'm just kidding. Well, tell me this. Yes.

So, like, what do you learn from acting that you feel like on a regular basis you employ in writing? Well, I go back and forth on it, of course. But to me, I think the biggest thing writers can learn from acting and what was required in acting is that you need conflict. And if an actor ever comes up to you, especially in television, they just don't understand what's going on. Usually there's not conflict for them.

They're just talking heads. Yes. And so they, you know, there's nothing happening. And acting is you try to get something and something is in the way of getting it. Yeah. That's really what acting is. Yes. You have an objective and there's something blocking that objective.

There's a conflict. Yeah. It's the basis of all acting. Yes. You know. blocking that objective. There's a conflict. It's the basis of all acting. And understanding that as a writer, you know that your

characters have to be doing something and not just reacting to something. Or not just behaving. It's not enough to be realistic or naturalistic. I always feel you have to be hyper-realistic. Hyper-naturalistic. That can be

the cover, it looks like, but there has to be an engine thereistic, you know? Yeah. Hyper-naturalistic. That can be the cover, it looks like, but there has to be an engine there of action that's working. And actors who are really good understand that, and so that's where their radar is going to go up. It's like, I don't understand what's going on here. What they really mean is, I don't have a conflict here, you know?

I really don't have, what am I trying to get? Like, what do I want here? That's the cliche, is actors kind of complaining, what's my motivation? But actually, you do need a motivation. Completely. You need to do something for a reason. If you're doing it for no reason, it's not worth watching. Absolutely.

So it's not enough to be naturalistic, as some people think, to behave as if it's real life. There's a hyper-realism, hyper-naturalism, where something else is at play. as some people think, to behave as if it's real life. There's a hyper-realism or hyper-naturalism where something else is at play. You're elevating what real life is. Even if you're making it look real, you're elevating it. So that means something else is at play. So there has to be an action in there. I always give this kind of advice, if you want it to be worthwhile.

If you're not interested in it being worthwhile, then that's a different thing. But if you want to elevate material, you always look for that. Well, it's funny because you worked on The Office. Yeah. And The Office arguably is supernaturalistic. Yes, absolutely. But is there conflict? Yes.

Is there conflict in The Office? Absolutely. What's there conflict? Yes. Is there conflict in the office? Absolutely. What's the conflict? Well, you have a boss who his desire is to be loved, and the conflict, the obstacle is himself. Oh, I love that. Yes. Yes, the obstacle, of course, is himself. And it gets in the way of everything. Michael Scott's enemy is Michael Scott.

The moment you're in that office, you are ducking all of your interactions with Michael Scott. Oh, my God. I'll never see that show the same way again. There's conflict as soon as you step into the office. And individual stories have their own conflict. With Jim in that first season, of course, he's in love with this girl that he can't be in love with. Yes, that's right. So he has a conflict every time he's in a conversation with him because he can't reveal in love with. Yes, that's right. So he has a conflict every time he's in a conversation with him

because he can't reveal his true feelings. Right. And that's a conflict. So even though it looks casual, he really wants to say, I love you, but he can't. Yeah. So how's he going to say that in ways where he's not really saying that, where he's not putting himself on the line,

he's not risking his heart, he's holding onto himself. All of Jim's scenes in those first season, he's doing that. He's not just talking. He's, I can't tell you how I really feel about you. That's what he's saying in every single scene. So I always say, when you know what a show is about, the DNA of that should be in every scene

of the thing. The DNA of it. So you could pick out any scene and the DNA should be in there. When I did Bernie Mac, I always said, what the Bernie Mac show was, children are terrorists, I don't negotiate with terrorists. That's so funny. And you could pick

any scene out of there. And that's what it's about. It's in there somewhere, the non-negotiable stance with terrorists. I love Bernie Mac's show and, like, one of the things that i think is so impressive about it and i feel like we probably borrowed from it when we made sleepwalk with me the movie i talked to the camera quite a bit right and bernie talks to the camera right

which of course is an older convention it's an older convention certainly yeah and it's his oldest time but like but he did it so well yeah and it's also like speaking of naturalism it's his oldest time but like but he did it so well yeah and it's also like speaking of naturalism it's so naturalistic it's like yes

how much of that is him riffing to just go was that I said is it though is he just going or is he

no he's on script absolutely no kidding yeah in fact I encouraged Bernie I said Bernie if you want to just I called it Bernie Mac this.

If you want a Bernie Mac this, you know, take it. He would say, okay, no problem. He would usually do it verbatim. But the purpose of that was really an id scene. It was really expressing his id. That's where he says, I want to kill those kids. Right. It's what he can't say in the scene.

That's really interesting. So he has to say it to us. You know, he's expressing. It's not exposition. It's not meant for that. Right. It's to be expressive of the things he can't say somewhere else. So that's his space to say that, to communicate directly with the audience.

Yeah, the direct communication always serves a different purpose and different things. So in Sleepwalk With Me, it was we got into the test screenings and people, this stuff that in a monologue where I talk about jumping through a second story window and all these very serious things that we're getting laughs on stage because people can see I'm okay. Yeah. When I got it in the movie and the test screenings, they weren't laughing at all because they're like, we don't know if he's okay.

So we added in this, me talking to camera, driving around and they're like, well, clearly he's in the present. He seems like he's okay. So we added in this me talking to camera, driving around, and they're like, well, clearly he's in the present. He seems like he's okay with this. And so we know he's okay. That's interesting.

It's funny because sometimes it can be the opposite. So like Bernie Mac, when I watched his set, you know, and when he would talk to the audience, he'd say, Charlotte, you know what I'm talking about, you know, Charlotte, North Carolina, whatever. And that's why I got America. You know how Bernie Mac feels. He's addressing them as like a one thing.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know how Bernie Mac, you know Bernie Mac doesn't mean that. But in the act, this is what he says. He says, I believe you should be able

to hit a child in the stomach or the throat. Oh my God. The stomach or the throat, right? Oh my God. It was one of the funniest things ever. And he says,

the audience is laughing hysterically. In the pilot, there's a scene in the pilot where they're in the store, and he kind of spanks the kid on his butt. No big deal. We got worse when I was a kid. They could not take that, the studio and the network.

They wanted me to take it out. They changed it. It was too harsh. Here's a man who the reason why he has a show is because he said he wanted children should be hit in the stomach or the throat. They're all aware of that. And they're afraid of that type of thing on his behind. I'm like, it's Bernie Mac.

Are you kidding me? This is the person who's doing the show. But because it was so real at that point as opposed to, so it's the opposite of yours. When they only had to imagine it, it's funny. But when they saw it, it was too much. That's really interesting. With Bernie, you know, because I've lost friends, Mitch Hedberg, Greg Giraldo.

You lost Bernie. I mean, it's like, how do you? And my show, of course, Old Man in the Pool, is all about death and losing friends and losing family. And you've lost your brother. I mean, it's like, how do you cope with that? What is yours? Do you have anything on that?

I don't know. I mean, one of the cliches is, you know, time. And I really think it's really all you got in your favor. What I've tried to do specifically for my brother, because he was in my family, is I've tried to pour good stuff out rather than look for good stuff to come in. So being active in that.

So even in my work, I'm trying to make sure people feel better after something than before. So I'm looking to put light out there and looking for those places because I feel that helps me. But honestly, I think it's different for everybody and it depends on the type of loss. Each one is so different. And loss is a difficult thing to deal with. But loss does have a journey, you know. It's funny because I wrote this philosophy years ago.

I won't get into it too much here. But a lot of times people, I think, deal with false loss. And false loss is something that feels like loss, but it never goes away. And they always hold on to it. But that's not really loss. That's something else. Because loss actually does have a journey, you know, does have a path. You know, there is mourning.

There are ups and downs in it. And there's like people say the stages of grief. They don't say there's one stage of grief that goes on forever. Right. You know, they say they're the stages of grief. Right. You know, but like when you see people who are angry about something and they hold on to that, that's not true loss or true grief. That's something else.

Something else, I believe, is being triggered there. And there needs to be an investigation of what that thing is and not associated with the other. That's what you call that false loss? I call it false loss. That's not really loss. How do you define that? Can you define that? Because I'm really interested by that.

Yeah. You have like a whole thing on it. Sure. Like let's take showbiz. You know, if somebody didn't get a job, you know, that someone else got, and they're angry about that thing, they feel like they lost something, but they didn't. That's not really a loss.

Right. You know, that's a false loss. Yes. But they might hold on to that for. Yes, with anger. Exactly. Damn it. I didn't get the thing.

It's not fair. Life isn't fair. Yes, and they think they've lost something. They think something was lost. Right. You know, so they use the same language, but it's not. That's not what loss is, you know. That's profaz deep. So there's confusion in how to deal with that. So when you associate

different things in the same way, it's hard to get past things because you have emotional confusion about things, you know. Well, it's hard to get past things because you have emotional confusion about things, you know? Well, it's a flattening of failure. Yes. And sadness. Yes.

And those things, there's nothing wrong with those things. No, absolutely not. Yeah. Yeah, they're just feelings. Yeah. But they're, yeah, no, I definitely find, like, it's, yeah, there's definitively a difference between losing your best friend or your brother and losing a job that you thought you should get or something like that. And it's like, yeah, you're right. One of them never goes away.

It's funny because yesterday I was at the funeral for my best friend since high school. His dad passed away and we were at his funeral. And, yeah, I thought, and he's, my friend is not in showbiz, you know, he, you know, as they say, he works in the regular world. Yeah, yeah, civilian. Yeah, civilian, a layman, as it were, you know. And we've been best buddies forever. And, you know, he's not a writer or anything like that, but he wrote one of the most profound lines in The Usage of First Dad where he said, I'm going to be, he said, my dad's death is going to be fuzzy for me, but his life is going to be a vivid memory.

And I was like, oh, my God. Wow. That is profound. Yeah. The way that he's choosing to handle loss, I guess you could say, and that type of thing, is he's not focusing on the thing that is giving him grief. What's going to be vivid for him is the thing that gave him life. I love that. That's crazy.

It's such a good line. Yeah, no, absolutely. Just even the word fuzzy, as a writer, I have to critique. I'm like, that's a good word. Good word choice. Do you think you could have used cloudy maybe? No, fuzzy's good. Someone said something recently about writing

where I was like, oh my God, that's absolutely true. They're basically, someone was paraphrasing their writing process as being in the final, you know, 20% of a script I'm writing, I just cut, you know, a couple hundred words. Find a couple hundred words. And I thought...

Just arbitrary? Well, no, just like trim the fat. Oh, wow. And find, like, how do I get to it faster? How do I make this tighter? I just thought, oh, that's a really good... And that's kind of like word choice in that sense. Like, where you obsess over words and, like,

do I need this? I think about this with my show you obsess over words and, like, do I need this? I think about this with my show all the time. It's like, do I need that tag? Yes. It's like the joke is getting this, the tagline's getting this, and the second tag's getting this. Well, the first tag and the second tag could probably go away. Yeah.

Because if the joke's getting this, then I should just move on to the next thought. I know. It's easy to get laugh greedy or joke greedy or lying greedy. I love watching you, Mike, because I don't know if you consider yourself a wordsmith, but the words you choose are so good. Oh, thanks. I obsess over it.

It pays off. Thanks. But you have what I call casual drive-bys. Thanks. Where, you know, the joke comes out have what I call casual drive-bys. You know? Oh, thanks. Where, you know, the joke comes out, and they laugh, and then you have a casual drive-by right as they're laughing. They have

no idea this gang member's gonna come up and pop, pop, pop. That is so funny. They've just been distracted by this joke, but you know pop, pop, pop, pop, pop. It's so fun to watch. Yeah, no, I meant the world that you came. I just admire the stuff that you do so much.

You're so prolific. I'm just like, when I look at your IMDb, it's like, you know, between Insecure and Black-ish and Bernie Mac and Living Color, it's just one of those IMDbs where you're just kind of like, what? But when? When did it happen? Was he 90? Yeah, yeah.

When did you do all that stuff? I know. It seems like it, but, you know, when you're doing it, you know how it is. You just do it, you know. But it's funny. I've always been obsessed with words, I guess, even more so than sentences. Yeah, I get that. Yeah, the words are interesting to me.

I love it when people, when I say something, and they say, oh, you mean like blah, blah, blah? I say, no, I chose the right words. It's like the words that I said. That is... No, no, that's what I meant to say.

Well, that's why it's funny. It's a funny moment historically because there's a massive discussion of both comedy and linguistics. Yes. Right now, right? Right. And there's a big thing of like, you can't say this word, but you can say this word. You can't say this, but you can say this.

Right, exactly. I always ignore that stuff, you know, because I'm like, we have words for a reason, you know, so you can use them. In fact, John Oliver and I, one of the funniest sketches we did on Daily Show, my favorite, I should say, was where their city council in New York wanted to ban the N-word. Yeah. And we tortured him, and it was so funny, you know. And we just, of course, when you tell little kids you can't say anything in fact that was one of the things that i said so this is what i said to the guy

one of the pieces of it um i say his name is leroy go leroy come on if you tell kids you can't use the n-word all day long they're just gonna go nigger nigger nigger nigger nigger nigger nigger and i said it like literally said it to him about 40 times yes Yes. And you see his face like not knowing what to do. Because to me, his whole point is like, why are you banning words? It doesn't make sense. Right. I don't understand this. You know. And also, there's this weird thing where

also, if you ban words, especially in literature, you lose the historical context. Oh, absolutely. I just think that's wrong. Which is dangerous. Right. You forget about the historical context. Oh, absolutely. I just think that's wrong. Which is dangerous. Right. You forget about the historical context of where the things came from. Right.

And that author wasn't looking for a co-writer at the time. It's like, when did you become the co-writer? Oh, I saw you change. Why did you change that? Nobody said change that. I chose the right word. It's crazy that people think they can do that. That's a really interesting way to look at it.

Yeah, it's interesting with conflict, though, because you're saying, like, conflict is the thing that's necessary for actors, it's necessary for writers. And when we were talking on your podcast about how you've done some autobiographical stand-up over the years, but you're reluctant to do it a little bit. Right, I know. But I think part of it is you have to air your own conflict. Yeah, I know.

You're right. Because fundamentally, when I get on stage, I talk about, generally, I talk about my conflict, my love and conflict with my wife and my daughter, and my love in conflict with my brother Joe and my family and my parents. And it's like I vet that with my wife and daughter and I vet it with Joe. Joe collaborates with me and Jen collaborates with me often. But I don't vet it with my parents. Yeah, that's interesting. And it's conflict. Yeah.

So it's like you have to come to grips with this idea, as a biographical writer, is like, well, am I going to air the conflict or am I not? I know. It's funny because I've done it in pieces. And having seen your act, I went back to my stand-up and I was thinking, what was the stuff that I actually told about myself? Yeah. And it's funny.

At the time when I kind of really stopped doing stand-up, I was just starting to write that material. I was just actually making the transition to really talk about myself, you know. Before, I had kind of done it in sneaky ways, I'll say, you know. Sure. You know, that type of thing. My friend thinks this. Or I'll do it in satire.

Yes, yes. That type of thing, because that's kind of the jokes that I like to do. Like, you know, I would say people always ask me what I mix with because I'm light-skinned. Are you mixed with something? And I would always say, look, if I was a beer, I'd be a negro.

And I'm a third less angry than the regular negro. That was one of my favorite jokes. This was like years ago, of course. But that was me talking about identity. There's more that I want to talk about identity, but that was the way I talked about identity. And not feeling like I belonged in certain groups, including black groups sometimes. There's a whole slew of material there that's personal, but that was the joke for me. That was more satirical or whatever.

So it is interesting. I am still, of course, very much interested in that type of thing and those types of observations because I really do like it a lot. And I'm always so jealous of it whenever I see it. I go, God, man, that's so good. How come I can't talk about stuff? It's not without its own conflict. Yeah. I talk about every piece of dirty laundry in my family. And it's like, I have to go home to the family. Yeah.

Did they ever get mad at you? Sometimes. Yeah. I would say it comes up. Jenny described it recently as like once per show we have like a 24-hour span where we do not see eye to eye on what has occurred in the past. So it just has to be an agreement that, sorry, this is for, this is art. Or this is for my show. It's art and it's a shared agreement of this is my take, this is your take.

Right. Why don't we agree on some version of this and this? Right. That's hilarious. Isn't that a lot? Oh, yeah. Absolutely. Because she's a writer, too, and, you know, she's a poet.

And she certainly takes liberties in her work, too. And I have to look at that and go, all right. Well, especially if you're going to talk about her stuff. Yeah. Like, if, you know, talking about your stuff is one thing. But if you're going to talk about her stuff, like, how does she feel about that when you're telling us what you feel is her point of view on something or her stance on something? Yeah. You know, especially, like, when you talk about children.

That's a dangerous area to talk about, how a woman feels about having kids, you know? Oh, yeah, certainly. like when you talk about children that's a dangerous area to talk about how a woman feels about having kids you know oh yeah certainly and that's why in part of the reason why in the new one i asked her to be a writer on it and so she was accredited writer on the new one show in her i say her poetry which is her point of view along the way so like i pick up her poetry books along the way and read them. And because honestly, like it reached a point in my writing process where I'm like, this just isn't two-sided enough. I mean, that circles back to like what we were talking about in relation to how, you

know, writing in general, it's like if we're too focused on a single character, then it can get boring. Absolutely. Which is why, if you go back to The Office, for example, the conflict with Michael Scott and then the conflict with Jim and Pam. Yes.

Those happening simultaneously is good for the, is that how Ira Glass describes it, the story? Good for the business. Yes. You did Bernie Mac, The Office, Living Color, Insecure, The PJs, Fresh Prince. Like, so many hits. Like, literally so many hits.

What is the sign of when something's going to be a hit? Did you know those were going to be hits? No, I mean, each one is different. You know, some shows you joined it after the fact. But I got to be on a lot of shows from the beginning, which was nice, too. People thought The Office was going to be a failure, by the way. Is that right? Oh, absolutely. Writers, they were kind of snotty about it

when I would tell them I was on The Office. People, I remember even talking to Cynthia Littleton, who I've known for years. She's in that writer, how I reported to her. And she had, I don't know, if she said something snarky about it, I said, Cynthia, it's really going to be good. And she's like, well, we'll see. And then like a year later or whenever it was caught on, I don't know, if she said something snarky about it, I said, Cynthia, it's really going to be good.

And she's like, well, we'll see. And then like a year later or whenever it was caught on, I started saying, see, I told you it was going to be good. But people were judging it. The English version was just so beloved for people that had seen it. Sure. And also the pilot episode, Greg Daniels, who developed it for the American version it was word for word the English one for whatever reason they wanted him to do that

I don't know if he wanted to do that but they wanted him to do that and it just didn't fit Steve Carell the way that that fit Ricky Gervais who Ricky Gervais could say the worst things in the world and he not only was trying to get love he was also the worst human being you know where Steve Carell's not the worst human being. Yeah, yeah.

You know, where Steve Carell's not the worst human being. That's not good casting. Oh, interesting. He's too nice. He's too lovable. And so he had to be dirtied up a little bit. You know, so if you look at the first six episodes, his hair is kind of slicked back. Interesting. You know, and he, that pilot episode, if you look at the pilot episode, there is nothing likable about that character at all.

Oh, that's interesting. In fact, easy to be rejected. It just didn't come off as well, especially in the pilot. And we were keenly aware of that, writing it, you know, that Steve is just more likable. The second season, Greg, as a note, sunnied him up a bit. You know, he just gave in, gave in is not quite the word, but he just acknowledged

that Steve Carell is this. Yes. You know, and we wrote to that more also rather than writing the Ricky Gervais version of it where he really is cretinous. I mean,

there was no redeeming feature at all. I mean, but it works for him. Like, one of the funniest scenes that he ever did, he shows up on a blind date, and it's

like, the timing is impeccable. As soon as his head turns to see this woman who's, like, a bit overweight or, you know, wasn't quite his type, you know, as soon as his head turns, he goes, oh, for fuck's sake, you know? Like, as soon as he makes eye contact with her, oh, for fuck's sake. And it's the funniest thing in the world. But he can get away with that, you know, because he's a terrible person, you know. Yeah, it feels like a very real extension.

Yeah, I mean, when I say terrible person, his persona is that. That's what the actor gives off. Yeah. But Steve Carell doesn't give that off. It's like, why is he being so mean to her, you know? You've worked in so many writers' rooms. Do you feel like, what was the biggest argument you remember having in a writers' room? Oh, wow.

That's a good question. Argument. Hmm. It could have been artistic. I mean, it could have been personal, but, like, you ever been in a room where you're like, no, no, no, it can't end that way. And someone's like, yeah, it has to. See, here's the thing about writers. Writers want to go home.

No one's going to argue about the ending. They might argue about the beginning, but no one's going to argue about the ending. No one's taking that amount of time. They are trying to get home, you know. Because you work crazy hours in the writers room, right? Absolutely. I think some people don't realize.

Some shows are very abusive too. Yeah, some people don't realize when they're like, I want to be a TV writer. It's like, do you? They don't know

what they're signing up for. They really don't. I mean, I hear stories. Oh, it's terrible. 14, 15 hours.

Oh, it's the worst. And go back to Fresh Prince, I was only there for one season. I didn't even last the whole season because I quit

part of the way through. But the showrunner who was Will's manager at the time, Jeff Pollack, he's passed away since then but he had never run a show before

and it was kind of, I felt it was kind of a coup getting the writer who was running it, what was his name? I can't think of it right now but he was... Was it Borowitz?

No, Borowitz. The Borowitz had been long gone. But this writer, he's been doing a couple of years, but he was like a veteran, been around a long time,

that type of guy. Really nice guy, and he was kind of pushed out. I think Jeff wanted to run the show, that's my own opinion, but I think that's

what he wanted to do. But was not equipped to do it. And we'd be there until three or four in the morning, and we felt he didn't want to go home.

Right. That was his problem. And he'd be smoking cigars, you know, and drinking and stuff, and to me that time, you know. Are you serious? Oh, it was terrible.

What are you talking about? And he'd give the worst notes. This is what he'd tell you to do as a writer. He'd say, Larry, could you... You and Mike, can you guys go write some buttons for the scene? Go write some what? Just can you go write some buttons for the scene?

What scene? The scene hasn't even been written yet. Oh, some what? Just can you go write some buttons for the scene? What? The scene hasn't even been written yet. Oh, my God. Just go do it. So we go into an office. What do you mean write buttons? That doesn't even make sense. And then he said, you know, Larry's not very good at writing buttons. You know what I mean?

Oh, my God. But he was out of his mind. He was completely out of his mind. But it was so abusive. Just so many hours, you know. And how the show ever turned out in that last season to have coherent episodes is beyond me. Oh, really? Oh, it's beyond me.

It was just, you know, a testament to the show already being good enough that it could outlast that type of thing in that last season. But writers usually argue more about stuff that have nothing to do with the show than about the show itself. Right, because they're heady people. Yeah, we're always distracting. We talk about other things. Sometimes the biggest challenge is getting to the writing. Oh, my God. Because you may start the day where you're talking about the thing and this thing, and then you're talking about that,

and then people have to joke about it, and then this, and someone's going to deconstruct what you just said, and then this, that, that, and then you go on a tangent, and now you've got to show somebody on your computer what it is or whatever it is. And it's like, oh, fuck. We need to order lunch. We haven't even ordered lunch yet. So then you get the lunch order, get that done. And now the showrunner has to go take a meeting. So then you're going to fuck around because the showrunner is out of the room.

That's so funny. That's the morning of a writer's room. But you know what's funny is like the things that are said are off the wall. Oh, it's terrible. Because you're finding the line of comedy. Absolutely. Comedy is all about finding the line. A thousand percent true.

And to find the line, you got to go way over the line and then come back and sneak it back. The things we said in the writer's room of In Living Color, I mean, all of us would have been arrested multiple times over the course of many years. They could excavate it now, and we'd be arrested right now, in fact. I think even some of the stuff that made it on air, you could be arrested for. Now the things that have made it on air. But the things we said, it were horrible things. Horrible. I can't even imagine.

And we could not laugh hard enough. It was so funny. And not only that, we play acted also on that show because we worked all the hours of the night, too. I can't even imagine. And we could not laugh hard enough. It was so funny. And not only that, we play acted also on that show because we worked all the hours of the night, too. So it'd be 1.30 in the morning or something like that, and we'd rush to somebody's office because they were doing a little performance art. Yeah. Oh, my gosh. And I can't even describe what the performance art is because it was so vile, the stuff that we would do. But we had to do those vile things in order to keep our sanity.

Oh, gosh. In order to write stuff that was appropriate for television. But I've heard a lot of writers from writers' rooms say, like, that era of writers' rooms being way over the line is sort of gone. Do you think that's true? Oh, probably so. Absolutely. Yeah. It probably has to be.

Right. Because there's too many snitches, you know? Right. The iPhone is a snitch, basically. Yeah, yeah, for sure. It's the window to the world. There were no snitches back then, you know? It all stayed in the room, pretty much.

Do you think that will have downstream negative artistic effects on the show? No, because I think people create differently. That's interesting. I mean— People just adapt. Absolutely. Yeah. That's how creativity works.

You know? Yeah. Set up a barrier. We're going to be creative. Yeah. Oh, the barriers? I can't make that kind of joke? All right, motherfucker.

I'm going to be funny this way. Fuck you. How about that? You're absolutely right. I think that's absolutely true. Yeah, yeah. Because the nature of what we do is we're rebelling against something.

Right. Yeah, I always say whenever people have a conversation about comedy and like, you can't say anything anymore. It's like, actually, you can say like 99% of what you want to say and you haven't said it yet. Right. You haven't gotten there. So,

when you hit your limit, when you get to the 99%, let's reconvene. And I actually have no problem with the audience saying something, you know. Like, I don't have an issue when the audience says they're offended by something. I don't have an issue with that. Me neither.

Because my job is to make them laugh, not to judge them for not laughing. Agreed. You know. So, if I'm at the point where I don't make them laugh, then that apparently is not something I'm able to do anymore. Yes. You know, or I have to find the audience that I do or adapt or something. But it's not, who am I to say they're wrong because they're not laughing? That's not, I never viewed comedy that way. We do it in a snarky way.

That was a horrible audience. Oh, they just didn't get it. Yeah, of course. But we don't really mean it. Because it's rare that somebody operates like that. It's the rare performer that really doesn't care. Yes. About the audience.

We care deeply how the audience feels. Oh, my God. Yes, we live on that. I think about it every night. Yes, exactly. Every night I do my show, I think about how the audience reacted to every single word. Yes, we want that. We want them to react favorably in everything, you know.

So, yeah, so when they say that, to me, it gives me a clue about something as opposed to I'm saying, fuck you, you don't know what you're talking about. Yeah. So I'll investigate it. I go, oh, that's interesting, you know. Or I might poke at it, but poking at it for laughs, you know, that type of thing. I had a line in Think Out for Jokes that it was too on the nose for the show. I took it out, but it's, we all have a right to offend and we all have a right to be offended. And those two ideas are not mutually exclusive.

Right. It's just like, it's not funny enough to be in the show. Right. But I think it's true. Right. And I always say, well, part of my job is to offend. So it appears as if I'm succeeding. Right. But I think it's true. Right. And I always say, well, part of my job is to offend. So it appears

as if I'm succeeding. Right. Right. It seems like our agendas are maybe at odds in this way. Or sometimes I would rather somebody be offended

than to go, it was okay. Working It Out is brought to you in part by Helix Mattresses. Helix Mattress. Look, if you're a regular Working It Out listener and you don't have a Helix Mattress, I think that's on you. It's the official mattress of the Working It Out podcast. It's the perfect mattress to lie there and write a screenplay

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With Helix, better sleep starts now. So we do this thing called a slow round and a lot of it's based on memories. Do you have a nickname for your life that was particularly good or bad? A nickname for you? A nickname for me? Yeah.

That people called me? Yeah. When I was young, people called me the professor. Oh, that's nice. Yeah. That's a good nickname. I think it kind of, yeah. I think it kind of had an effect on me, you know.

When you were a kid? Yes, because I wore glasses. As simple as that. I love when you're a kid. No, kids are simple. There's nothing else. Oh, look at him. He's the professor.

He's the librarian. He's the librarian. He's the professor. He's the teacher. That's all they needed was the glasses. The professor was one that stuck around for a while. No, professor's great. People still call you that? No, no.

That's a good one. I don't know if anybody remembers. You still go by that. Well, now I'm called the Oracle. Oh, really? My daughter, she kind of coined that one. Because I have this weird thing where I came up with this thing where I call, and I think people have written about this type of thing, of putting it out there.

Yeah. Where I have a vision for something and somehow it just comes about. Oh, interesting. And so Lauren calls me the Oracle. Oh, that's interesting. Some people have said that, you know, which is kind of funny. Yeah, because you've had a lot of visions for things, and the visions have come true, which is like, do you think there's a trick to that?

Like, if someone's listening to this, and they're like, I want to be the oracle. Okay, so that, I came up with a term called putting it out there, is the term that I have. And I did it not knowing what I was doing when I was younger. Yeah. And then I went, what? And then I started to do it consciously, and it started to happen when I consciously did it.

And it was just personal things. Wow. And I'm like, what's going on here? And so it's not setting goals, and it's not hoping for something. I call it putting something out there that is a fact. It's a fact of something that you put out there, something that is

to be as a fact. Yeah. You know, not as a hope, not as a desire, not as a goal. Yeah. So,

here's the first time it happened to me. When I was doing Open Mic Night, you know, in comedy, it was at the Newport Beach Laughs Out,

you know, which doesn't exist anymore. And I remember looking at the marquee and said, you know what? In two years, my name's going to be at that marquee. I just put it out there as a fact. Yeah, putting it out there.

Forgot about it. Then the thing putting it out there, it's not like I think about it every day and I make goals. Nope. Just put it out there as a fact. That's just the way it is. Two years later, I'm driving up to my own parking space. I'm headlining that week at the Newport Beach Laughs Out.

And I'm about to go in, I'm like, I go, oh, cool, they put my name on the marquee. And I go, oh, fuck. That's wild. And it hit me right then. It was two years ago, almost to that day that I said, and I said, why did I say two years? I said two

years, and it was almost two years to the almost, it was certainly the exact month. And my name was on the marquee, and I was like, years to the almost it was certainly the exact month and my name was on the marquee and i was like well that's weird you know and i i just thought it was weird you know that yeah that the time frame was so exact you know oracle like it wasn't three years or four years where it's like hey i remember when i said in two years i'm gonna have it yeah sure it happened in four years but why the fuck did it happen in two years like so that kind of messed with my mind a little bit so i started doing it in different ways you know fuck did it happen in two years? So that kind of messed with my mind a little bit.

So I started doing it in different ways. I did it with how much money I would earn. I remember when I started writing, I said, in a certain amount of time, I want to make this. And in that amount of time, not only did I make it, I got a deal that was that amount too. Like almost the exact time I put out there. And it was so weird.

And I've shared this with some people too. But I believe what happens is when you put something out there as a fact, what it is is the choices that you make in your life are guiding you towards that. So you have guidance for choices. Where a lot of times people don't have guidance for choices. They're more arbitrary. And it's easier to get rid of stuff that doesn't keep you on that track when you know what that track is. I think it's more about having clarity about where you're going than a magic trick about something appearing. Oh, that's fantastic. There's another way of phrasing that, which is a great film.

One of my favorite film directors is Miguel Arteta. Oh, yeah, he's great. I played a minor role in his film Cedar Rapids. I auditioned for that. Did you really? He called me in for that. That's hilarious. And I met with Miguel and everything.

I even did an accent for a Midwestern thing. I love the script. It was great. Oh, it's hilarious. Yeah I met with Miguel and everything. I even did an accent for a Midwestern thing. I love the script. Oh, it's hilarious. Yeah, it's great. Great guy. And he gave me advice about when I had written Sleepwalk With Me as a movie script. And I was like, I'm not sure what to do at this point. I have some investors and I have some producers.

And he said said similar to what you're saying put it out there he goes tell everybody the date that you're shooting it's july 15th it's true and you say the train's leaving the station yes and if you and similar to put it out there same expression yeah it's trains leaving the station you want on the train yeah leaving july 15th i say. And we made the damn movie. It's true. There's something about your energy and your spirit when it's out there. It almost commits you to something.

So you almost don't want to do the things that aren't going to happen. And I think it can be a coincidence, the time frame. But I really think it's the focusing of what you're doing that makes those things happen. That's what I believe if I'm going to take it out of the spiritual realm. Oh, I love that. Yeah. Can you remember a time in your life where you were so scared you ran away? It's probably happened many times.

Yes, there was once, and I felt guilty about this, actually. So I lived in a neighborhood where a lot of people had dogs. In fact, we had an alley we called Dog Alley. See, here's the beginning of the story for stand-up. It sounds perfect, actually, when I think about it. Dog Alley, what a great idea. Dog Alley, perfect.

And so there was this guy, I think it was a racism thing, too. I think there was this guy in the neighborhood who, I don't think he liked black kids in this neighborhood, but I think he intentionally sicked his dogs on us who were playing, the kids that were playing. And we, everybody

ran. This is here in California? Yes. And my brother and his friend got caught. I don't think my brother got hurt, but our friend did a bit. And, you know, I was older, so I got out of there fast, you know. But I always felt guilty that I didn't do something, you know. Oh, my God.

So the two kids got, like, sicked by a dog? Oh, yeah, absolutely. He sicked it on all of the kids, yeah. Oh, my gosh. No, it was terrible, yeah. And you sprinted away, and you were like a teenager. Oh, yeah, I was a guy. Oh, it was terrifying.

Oh, I was a kid. Oh, you were a kid? I was in a teenager. No, no, no. We was a kid. Oh, you were a kid. I was in a teenager. No, no, no. We were about, this is eight or nine, that type of age. Well, that's a horrible memory. No, it was horrible. We were little kids.

No, we weren't teenagers. We were little kids. And I felt guilty that I didn't help. Like I didn't, because they were littler than me, you know, that type of thing. But it was one of those things where it was like, oh, what am I supposed to do? But I was so, the fear was so vivid. Like, that's the thing I remember is the fear. Because you were so afraid of dogs in those days, man.

Yeah. Dogs were, they were more a symbol of fear in those days more than anything else. Like, one of the biggest movies in the 70s was about Dobermans, you know. Yes. Yeah. You wouldn't now, it's Marley and me, you know. Right. Dogs are.

The original Jaws. Are your friends, yes. But dogs were, they were more a symbol of fear. I mean, for black people, there was no bigger symbol of fear than the German. You know, those attack dogs, you know. So that type of thing was in your mind at that time, that type of imagery. That's horrible. So that was your, you're telling me that was your neighbor who had those dogs?

It wasn't a neighbor, someone who lived in the neighborhood. But he wasn't a direct neighbor. Did you see him around a lot or it was just an isolated thing? No, occasionally. Occasionally driving and stuff. Did you have weird neighbors growing up? We had pretty cool neighbors. Our neighborhood was like an extended family type of feel.

Is that right? It was a black middle class at that time. Yeah. So a lot of people who worked like civil service people. My father was a probation officer during that time. Yeah. And people had those types of jobs, the jobs that black men could get in those days. Yeah.

Because there were a lot of jobs you just couldn't get. Yeah. But the government became an opportunity for a lot of them to have more middle class type jobs. Yeah. You didn't have to be a janitor. You didn't have to be this thing. So there were a lot of those type have more middle class type jobs. So you didn't have to be a janitor. You didn't have to be this thing. So there were a lot of those type of people in our neighborhood. And our neighborhood turned out to be a big sports neighborhood too.

So we had a lot of people who turned out to play pro sports and that type of stuff. Oh, really? Oh, it was crazy. A few doors down for me. By the way, a lot of people were good, but then there were the extraordinary too. So a few doors down for me, Bill Duffy, who was an All-American basketball player. He played the same year as Magic Johnson. He's one of the top sports agents in the country now.

A few doors from Bill was Greg Ballard, who played for the Washington Bullets. He won a championship for them. Across the street from Greg, right on the corner is Cornell Webster, who played for the Seattle Seahawks. He was a cornerback for them. You know, that was just our half-buck. Well, that's like a Malcolm Gladwell outlier situation. That was just our half-buck. That's like a Malcolm Gladwell outlier situation. That was just our half-buck. But for me, I was really good in sports. My dad played college

football. Oh, wow. Sports was a big thing for me. I ran track. I was really good in track and played other sports. But I had clarity about what it took to be really good, which was good. I was never delusional about sports because I played with the best people. That's interesting. Yeah. So by the time I was in high school going to college,

I knew what it took to be an elite athlete. I'm like, I'm not 6'6", and this type of thing. So I didn't have delusions, which I thought was really good because I was good enough to delude myself and that type of thing if I wanted to. Can you remember a moment from your life that in hindsight changed the trajectory of your life? But at the time, you didn't even really know.

Because here you are now. It's like, you have this, your resume, it's like the who's who of classic television and comedy. And it's like, was there a moment where you look back and you go, oh, actually, if that didn't happen, I wouldn't be doing this. I actually wrote about this. Yeah? It was the summer that I sold books door to door when I was in college.

Okay. And I didn't know if I really wanted to be in show business. I had tried a couple of things, but I wasn't sure. I felt like I was squandering my potential maybe to do something else. I was a really good student in school up until high school where I kind of threw my academic career away. My home life was really a mess at that point. My mom kind of had a nervous breakdown. My parents were divorced, that type of thing.

So it was hard to just focus. I had more of an escaping type of high school. Like theater was my escape. Sports was my escape. It wasn't drugs or that type of thing, thank God, because I knew a lot of people who that was their escape so thank god it was productive things but academics was not one of them yeah um so i kind of squandered that road for me which i always thought i would be on so i was very down about that and i didn't know showbiz seemed like a

fleeting thing i didn't know if that could work. Yeah. I knew a couple of people. A good friend of mine was trying to be a writer and had done some things. And I thought, oh, that's interesting. He had done stand-up. And I always thought it was funny. I did, you know, like talent shows and that type of thing. But doing it for a living is different. Yeah.

Right? And I was keenly aware of that. But I sold Bookstore to her one summer. It's this thing that you train for a week, like in Tennessee, and they give you all these motivational things, which were fantastic, by the way. What were they? Oh, it was fantastic. Oh, it was great. You know, I still remember a lot of them.

One stayed with me the whole time. It was one of the best things I ever heard because it's so true. It's like most people spend more time planning a two-week vacation than they do planning their lives. Oh. And I thought, that's amazing. Oh, I love that. I've told that to young kids too, you know, because it's so true.

The detail we'll put into something that will, you know. Is finite and we'll probably forget about. Not that it's not a good thing. Yeah. As opposed to, and the level of detail and planning you would put into that. So what do you do with that detail and planning for your life? Yeah. And what you want to do in your life.

That always stuck with me. Yeah. So you're selling books. Yeah. The other was whether you think you can or whether you think you can't. You're absolutely right. I love it. I've heard that before.

I love it. I just, I did. Yeah, yeah. Bravo. Standing ovation. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. heard that before. I love it. I just, I did. Yeah, yeah. Bravo. Standing ovation. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. Chef's kiss.

Very good. And it was a really tough summer. I was at a crossroads. I had a really tough year in school. I was a theater major, but I wasn't doing well in school. I was distracted. I think I had a crush on a girl and she had a boyfriend. So even that wasn't working out.

Yeah. All the things that are going wrong. Working at a gas station part-time, but really not making any money. My life seemed like it was really going nowhere. And I didn't know if I really wanted to even do showbiz for a living. And going into people's houses every day and doing that. And I kind of failed that summer, but I completed it. And in the essay, I talk about the whole thing, but I won't go into detail of it.

But for the most part, I went to many homes where I saw where the people were unhappy. And it was very apparent to me. And it seemed to me that a lot of that was choices that they had made probably at a certain point in their life where it took a trajectory. Like there's always a point where there's one or two decisions that put you on a trajectory. Yeah. Now, it doesn't mean you have to stay in that, but trajectories are very difficult to veer from. Yes. You know, it's a trajectory.

It's hard to get off of that, you know. That's the thing, you know. And so after doing that, I decided I made a pact with myself that I am going to do in life what makes me happy. And from that moment on, I feel like I've never worked. Never worked a day after that. I've done the thing, and I said, it doesn't matter how much money I make or whatever. I'm going to choose the road that's going to make me happy. And that's where all my success has come from.

all my success has come from that and I tell people I said when I started stand-up comedy I considered myself a success day one

because I was doing the thing that I wanted to do everything else are just the things that are an example of my success you know I feel exactly

the same way success was day one yeah success was day one for me too I worked the door at the Washington D.C. Improv and like when they

started paying me 250 bucks a week to MC, I was like, forget about it. Drop the mic. Yes, yes. Drop the mic. I'm a huge success. Like, are you sure you want to pay me this?

And then when I started making 400 bucks a week as a middle act, I was like, come on. This is a good, I get to open for Mitch Hedberg. Are you kidding me? Yes, yes. My hero.

You know what I mean? It's like, yeah, no, that's profound what you're saying. So success was never a goal for me. I had already achieved it. So that was never a conflict for me in my life. I was never troubled about, oh, I've got to make it. No, nigga, I made it already. I'm already a success.

Now what do I want to do? And I wrote this down, which is just based on, I mean, you were dealing with traffic coming in. It's like insane. But I wrote Los Angeles is the only place I've ever been where you could type your destination into Google Maps. And it says it could be 15 minutes or it could be days. Yes, it's true. It's not even the same metric of time. Yes.

It's like could be years. You ever thought about going to another city? Do you have a boat? It gets depressed. It starts berating you. Why are you even in Los Angeles? Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know what, buddy? Let me tell you the destination in downtown Kansas to the suburbs. You know what that is? It's

five minutes. How do you feel about that? What's wrong with you, Google Maps? Why are you so against me? That's very funny. Los Angeles is... You really have to be committed to this town. Because it's bananas. I always had an observation.

This is more of a standard joke observation. The New York-Los Angeles type of comparison. Mine was the New York-LA comparison really is exemplified to me the best in honking. Yes. And how we honk our horns and what that honk means. Because the LA honk is very possessive. When a horn is honked behind you and you're driving,

you're doing something that affects them in a possessive way. You're in my lane. Yes. You know, get out of my way. You're cutting me off. I was going over there, and that's my space. Yeah. What are you doing? It's a possessive way. You're in my lane. Yes. You know, get out of my way. You're cutting me off. I was going over there, and that's my space. Yeah. What are you doing?

It's very possessive. Yeah. It's very selfish. Whereas a New York honk is designed for your benefit. Right. It's designed to help you. What the fuck's wrong with you? That light's green.

Yes. Why aren't you going? Yes. Why? Turn right there. What's wrong with you? It's there to help you out. It's there for your benefit.

What do you think it says about the people in the city? New Yorkers are impatient that you're not doing something properly. Right. They're impatient about it. Yes. Yeah. And they don't have the time to talk to you about it. They just want you to learn it and do it.

Where L.A., L.A. is narcissistic by nature. So they're going to be thinking about themselves. Right. And what they're involved in. And you themselves, you know, and what they're involved in, and you're slowing me down, what's wrong with you, you know, there's something that has to do with them, it seems like, yeah, it's kind of the nature of it, so. The, and then I wrote this down, this is based on something that happened, I did, I was in Brooklyn, I was doing Pilates in this little office area, shared office.

And this guy walks into the office and says to my instructor, is the guy who teaches watercolor painting next door around? And the woman who's teaching me Pilates goes, I think he might be dead. And I thought, who do you know who you think might be dead? Yes. And then, it's a true story. I don't even have a punchline. And then that guy leaves, and she looks at me, and she goes, he's dead.

Yeah. It was a wild one. So she just wanted to let him down nicely? I don't know. It's a good question why. I think he might be dead. I think he might be dead. I think maybe she didn't want to be the bearer of full bad news.

Wow. You know what I mean? But it's still bad news. It is bad news any way you slice it. She's giving him false hope. Yeah. He might be alive, but I think he might be dead. And then she looks at me and she goes, he's dead. She's so cynical, too. Oh, my God.

It was a pretty wild one. It was one of the, you ever have this where, that's like an example of the setup is better than the punchline. Like, I don't, that story's so crazy that when it happened, I go, I'm definitely writing it down. I don't know what to do with it. it happened, I go, I'm definitely writing it down. I don't know what to do with it. Well, something like that, is it then you're having fun about the character and that's so much what the thing is, maybe?

I think possibly. Yeah. And she tells you, that's going to be $150. You say, you know, I think I might be broke. That's very funny. I might be broke. You know what's funny? Maybe we'll end on this because it's kind of an open-ended question.

I always ask people how they would describe me because I feel like the way we understand ourselves is so often incorrect. Yeah, I agree with that. You know what I mean? So how do you think people describe you in a way that you wouldn't describe you? I don't know. That's an interesting question

as you were saying it. Like I said, my nickname was the professor. People think I'm this quiet, kind of smart guy, conservative, these types of things, professor type or whatever. And I'm very silly. From my point of view, I have a lot of interest. Many people think I might be very passionate about, you know, issues and that. I'm actually very open-minded about things because I have a scientist brain.

I wanted to be an astronaut when I was a kid. So I like discovering things more than I like saying this has to be so. So I'm not on that side. I'm on the side of, oh, tell me more. That's interesting I love making discoveries but people wouldn't think that about me unless they listen more to

the stuff I do one of my hobbies is doing magic I'm a close up magician doing that people wouldn't know that about me whatever people have this image that isn't quite that but I understand what that is so I realize like when I have acting parts when it lines up with that those are good parts for me

yes when it lines up with what the audience is experiencing yes which goes back to our casting thing yes you know which is why when you're a young actor you get frustrated you think you can play everything not true yeah you know yes you Yes. You can in college, maybe in school. Absolutely. But when the audience requires an expectation to be met, you know, it's different.

Like, I could never do, I had a roommate, he was a comic, he had an act once where he started to do just really dirty material. Yeah.

And it was hilarious, too. He was really clever about it, too. I could never do that stuff. The audience just did not accept it for me. They just did not accept it. So I just said, well, and I wasn't that interested in doing it anyway. I could never do that stuff. The audience just did not accept it for me. They just did not accept it. So I just said, well, and I wasn't that interested

in doing it anyway. But sometimes I would have ideas for that. Nope. Sorry, Larry. We don't want to hear that from you. Nope. And I'm like, what the fuck? Why not? One of the first interviews I ever listened to was from the 80s with Jerry Seinfeld.

On comedy with Jerry Seinfeld. And he says, the audience tells you what's funny about you. I agree, Jerry. And if you're smart, you're listening. I agree again. Yes. If you're interested in doing comedy, you're listening. Now, you can guide that to a certain extent,

and you can push yourself to be different and all that kind of stuff. We talked about Carlin, those people who evolved and that type of thing, but the audience still had to tell them. Yeah. They still had to agree. With TV shows, I always felt like when you create and write a television show, when you are thinking of it and you're putting it down and you're actually making it, the show belongs to you.

Okay? Yeah. As soon as it's put out there, it's no longer yours. It's not yours. It now belongs to the audience, and you become the curator for their show. Yes. And they will let you know when you're fucking up their show. Yes.

Oh, my gosh. You become the curator for their thing. Yes. You know? That's a little bit like, I'm sure you've experienced that, because you've given the audience something over the years, and you're curating the thing you've given to them. Yeah.

And they will let you know when you're not doing a good job of curation. You know, it's not that you're not funny. It's like you're not treating Mike Birbiglia the way that we think he should be handled right now. Yeah. You know, what are you doing with him? Right. With this thing that we love and we've dedicated our lives to. He belongs to us.

To laughing at. Yes, exactly. So the final thing we do is working it out for a cause and basically we donate to an organization that you think is doing a good job. And then we link to it in the show notes and we encourage other people to donate. Do you have anything? Sure. I? Sure.

I'll go with Autism Speaks. Okay. It was an organization I did some work for. I shouldn't say work for, but my son has Asperger's. And so it was an issue I really didn't know much about, you know, until he had it. That's how we learn about a lot of things, right? Yeah. And, you know, in terms of I'm not involved in the day-to-day operations of the organization,

but I know that that's one of those organizations out there that really is committed to, you know, helping, you know, people out in this area in many different ways, you know. And it's one of those problems that I feel like in the last 20 or 30 years has exploded in our awareness of it. Yes. And in dealing with it, I feel like it's, it's appearing more and more for whatever reason, who knows, you know, I think more of it's being diagnosed, which is one thing. So it gives the appearance that there's more of it, but I also think there's more of it too. Yeah. Well, it's autism speaks.org and I'm going to, I'm going to give to them and I'm going to put it in the show notes and encourage people to donate as well if they can.

That would be great. Well, thanks, Larry. I could talk to you all day. This is fun. You're the oracle. You know so much stuff. No. See, here's the other thing.

See, here's the other thing. I sound smarter than I actually am. No. I can't handle this. I've always told you that. I'm not going to give any credence to this concept. This is over. This is over.

Cut you off. That's going to do it for another episode of Working It Out. You can check out Larry's podcast, Black on the Air, which is on the Ringer podcast network. I was a guest on recently. We had a great chat on there, too. I mean, I think we had a couple crossover topics, but actually I think it's a... If you like this

hour of chat, I think you'll like that hour of chat. It's a good one. Thanks for listening. Working It Out is produced by myself, along with Peter Salamone and Joseph Birbiglia. Consulting producer Seth Barish. Associate producer Mabel Lewis. Sound recording by Steve Pearson and Josiah Cozier.

Video recording by Nick Dimitrilakos, who I know very, very well and works with me, and I still might be messing up his last name. Nick, I'm so sorry. Dimitrilakos. I don't know. I don last name. Nick, I'm so sorry. Dimitra Lacos. I don't know. I don't know, Nick. I'm sorry. You can see Nick's great photography on Instagram. He shot a lot of those photos when I was in Los Angeles at CTG at the Mark Taper Forum. And you can follow him on Instagram. He's credited there. You can link through. Sound Mix by Shubh Saran. Supervising Engineer Kate Balinski. Special thanks to Gary

Simons. Special thanks always to Mike Insiglieri, Mike Berkowitz. As always, a special thanks to Marissa Hurwitz and Josh Upfall, Jack Antonoff and Bleachers for their music. As always, a special thanks to my wife, the poet J. Hope Stein. Her book, Little Astronaut, is available for

pre-order now. It comes out in September. We actually just did a book event, Jokes and Poems, that we do sometimes in Los Angeles at Skylight Books, amazing bookstore in Los Angeles. And it was so fun. I love her poems. They're so gorgeous. Follow her on Instagram, J. Hope Stein. She might be a guest on the podcast soon. You get all the tips about this show here on this show. Special thanks to my daughter Una who built the original radio fort made of pillows. Tell your friends, tell your enemies. You know, maybe start a group text with your enemies and just write,

Hey, I know you all know each other since you're enemies. Maybe you do, maybe you don't. But in any case, I'm texting all 50 of you to let you know that this podcast I listen to, that I think you'd enjoy. Please do not block this text chain. If you like the podcast, leave us a review on Apple Podcasts. I'm reading them. I'm reading them every damn night because we're working it out.

Thanks for listening, everybody. See you next time.